Extraofficial design fan-input

[SandroTheMaster]

Right, Fan-input is useless because fans will never be happy no matter what.

That said, it doesn't hurt to try and be helpful. Saying "this sucks" is useless advice and shall be frowned upon. Saying "this doesn't work because of X, that could be solved by Y" is better.

Also, this thread will be used to propose naming properly. Since all official names are currently still being experimented on.

Let me begin:

Lich and Archlich

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs312.ash2/59286_1661273330893_1208978427_1829546_1567986_n.j pg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs333.ash2/61378_1661272850881_1208978427_1829545_6130388_n.j pg

The name and base concept is fine. Technically they could only be named necromancers, but those are the Heroes and I'm gonna play ball and accept the prototype Lich idea. However, the upgrade could be named "Elder Lich" instead, but that's purely cosmetic. They seem to be the older ones, being more mummified and all.

The Archlich, however, could well be called "Lich of Chains". He's a mage, metallic props should be kept to a minimun. The spikes are ridiculous. The greaves, belt, bracers and headpiece are all horribly exaggerated metal pieces. Turn this exaggerated metal props into an extravagant robe and you could get something much better and concise. Taking the mummifying theme further could also work very well. And get hid of those chains, or at least make them thin instead of unwieldy. The staff isn't a mace, so it has no reason for such a huge headpiece.

Vampire and Vampire Lord

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs334.ash2/61464_1661270530823_1208978427_1829541_4726385_n.j pg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs010.snc4/33874_440704139587_161184829587_4952195_1100562_n. jpg

The Vampire is perfect. I wouldn't change a thing except maybe change the name to Vampire Warrior. Maybe.

The Vampire Lord... oh Gods. The latest Sauron impersonators have all been parodies of evil (well, depends if you take Warcraft seriously or see it as cartoony and over-the-top). The look pretty much only works on Sauron, and even then that's debatable. Really, I'm astonished how you can take such an incredible design such as the Vampire and turn it into... that.

Take away the spikes. Seriously, they are ridiculous on the intelligent undead. You can leave them on the dumb ones, it makes sense, but on the smart ones t just looks dumb. It is better to take the regular vampire and then exaggerate or improve on its traits. Do you see a single spike in it? No. Keep it that way. Now you could take that cape and turn it into a mantle. Or, if you really have to go with the warlord motif make the armor a complete and FUNCTIONAL piece. And then change its name to Vampire Champion, because a lord he is not.

Ghost and Spectre

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs024.snc4/33579_455724009587_161184829587_5223646_431583_n.j pg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs125.ash2/39597_455724019587_161184829587_5223647_6647487_n. jpg

I actually have nearly nothing bad to say. Props up, they're great.

But there's still some things. The face could be made more scary. The indifferent contempt isn't that much intimidating. Then the metal pieces on the spectre are dissonant with the design. You could either make them less exaggerated or cover her body more with metal propes. Bracers, a low hanging metal belt, some delicate metallic boots or shoes or ankle-guards. It has to be less of a contrast with the design and more of a complement to it.

Skeleton and Bone Guard

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs416.ash2/69460_455724049587_161184829587_5223650_2457212_n. jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs794.snc4/67470_455724034587_161184829587_5223648_6290157_n. jpg

The Skeleton is A-Ok.

The Bone Guard... good Gods. At least the names aren't final, and this one certainly is one that needs to be dropped. Skeleton Legionnaire. Bone Warrior. Skeleton Skirmisher. Skull Soldiers. And so on. And the bone motif on the armor... Even being an upgrade, skeletons are, by design and par excellence, disposable troops. The armor is degraded but looks too finely made. The helmet is huge and pointless. The greaves are too intricate. And the shoulder-pads are just... no. No. You can't go with that to a battle and expect to be taken seriously. And a breastplate of some sort wouldn't hurt. You don't notice a skeleton is a skeleton because of the ribcage. You notice it because of the skull.

Ghoul and Grave Ghoul

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs918.snc4/73135_455724104587_161184829587_5223652_5398431_n. jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs947.snc4/74039_455724114587_161184829587_5223653_2442486_n. jpg

Once again the Ghoul is fine. And once again the upgrade is a problem because of exaggeration of the WRONG traits or non-existent ones.

The name is lazy. Putrid Ghoul, Pale Ghoul, Morbid Ghoul, Rust Ghoul, Shackled Ghoul... there's are tons of better names. Grave Ghoul doesn't imply anything.

Now the design... oh, the design. He doesn't look so much like a warrior as it just looks like an S&M pervert's worst nightmare. WHAT'S WITH THE TIED SPIKES? The headpiece could work without the hanging metallic... whatever are those. Chelicerae? The shackles are good, and if the spikes were part of other shackles it'd work much better. The thing in the spine doesn't work either. If the blades followed the spine it'd make much more sense.

Now it's up to you. Agree with me, disagree with and defend the chosen design, make your own points about other designs. Let's get this going. My only objective is giving a heads up to the fine people at Black Hole Entertainment so to make them aware of their fan's opinion on the game in their care.

(PS: The Pit Lord is awesome, don't change a pixel)

[SandroTheMaster]

Right, Fan-input is useless because fans will never be happy no matter what.

That said, it doesn't hurt to try and be helpful. Saying "this sucks" is useless advice and shall be frowned upon. Saying "this doesn't work because of X, that could be solved by Y" is better.

Also, this thread will be used to propose naming properly. Since all official names are currently still being experimented on.

Let me begin:

Lich and Archlich

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs312.ash2/59286_1661273330893_1208978427_1829546_1567986_n.j pg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs333.ash2/61378_1661272850881_1208978427_1829545_6130388_n.j pg

The name and base concept is fine. Technically they could only be named necromancers, but those are the Heroes and I'm gonna play ball and accept the prototype Lich idea. However, the upgrade could be named "Elder Lich" instead, but that's purely cosmetic. They seem to be the older ones, being more mummified and all.

The Archlich, however, could well be called "Lich of Chains". He's a mage, metallic props should be kept to a minimun. The spikes are ridiculous. The greaves, belt, bracers and headpiece are all horribly exaggerated metal pieces. Turn this exaggerated metal props into an extravagant robe and you could get something much better and concise. Taking the mummifying theme further could also work very well. And get hid of those chains, or at least make them thin instead of unwieldy. The staff isn't a mace, so it has no reason for such a huge headpiece.

Vampire and Vampire Lord

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs334.ash2/61464_1661270530823_1208978427_1829541_4726385_n.j pg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs010.snc4/33874_440704139587_161184829587_4952195_1100562_n. jpg

The Vampire is perfect. I wouldn't change a thing except maybe change the name to Vampire Warrior. Maybe.

The Vampire Lord... oh Gods. The latest Sauron impersonators have all been parodies of evil (well, depends if you take Warcraft seriously or see it as cartoony and over-the-top). The look pretty much only works on Sauron, and even then that's debatable. Really, I'm astonished how you can take such an incredible design such as the Vampire and turn it into... that.

Take away the spikes. Seriously, they are ridiculous on the intelligent undead. You can leave them on the dumb ones, it makes sense, but on the smart ones t just looks dumb. It is better to take the regular vampire and then exaggerate or improve on its traits. Do you see a single spike in it? No. Keep it that way. Now you could take that cape and turn it into a mantle. Or, if you really have to go with the warlord motif make the armor a complete and FUNCTIONAL piece. And then change its name to Vampire Champion, because a lord he is not.

Ghost and Spectre

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs024.snc4/33579_455724009587_161184829587_5223646_431583_n.j pg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs125.ash2/39597_455724019587_161184829587_5223647_6647487_n. jpg

I actually have nearly nothing bad to say. Props up, they're great.

But there's still some things. The face could be made more scary. The indifferent contempt isn't that much intimidating. Then the metal pieces on the spectre are dissonant with the design. You could either make them less exaggerated or cover her body more with metal propes. Bracers, a low hanging metal belt, some delicate metallic boots or shoes or ankle-guards. It has to be less of a contrast with the design and more of a complement to it.

Skeleton and Bone Guard

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash2/hs416.ash2/69460_455724049587_161184829587_5223650_2457212_n. jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs794.snc4/67470_455724034587_161184829587_5223648_6290157_n. jpg

The Skeleton is A-Ok.

The Bone Guard... good Gods. At least the names aren't final, and this one certainly is one that needs to be dropped. Skeleton Legionnaire. Bone Warrior. Skeleton Skirmisher. Skull Soldiers. And so on. And the bone motif on the armor... Even being an upgrade, skeletons are, by design and par excellence, disposable troops. The armor is degraded but looks too finely made. The helmet is huge and pointless. The greaves are too intricate. And the shoulder-pads are just... no. No. You can't go with that to a battle and expect to be taken seriously. And a breastplate of some sort wouldn't hurt. You don't notice a skeleton is a skeleton because of the ribcage. You notice it because of the skull.

Ghoul and Grave Ghoul

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs918.snc4/73135_455724104587_161184829587_5223652_5398431_n. jpg http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs947.snc4/74039_455724114587_161184829587_5223653_2442486_n. jpg

Once again the Ghoul is fine. And once again the upgrade is a problem because of exaggeration of the WRONG traits or non-existent ones.

The name is lazy. Putrid Ghoul, Pale Ghoul, Morbid Ghoul, Rust Ghoul, Shackled Ghoul... there's are tons of better names. Grave Ghoul doesn't imply anything.

Now the design... oh, the design. He doesn't look so much like a warrior as it just looks like an S&M pervert's worst nightmare. WHAT'S WITH THE TIED SPIKES? The headpiece could work without the hanging metallic... whatever are those. Chelicerae? The shackles are good, and if the spikes were part of other shackles it'd work much better. The thing in the spine doesn't work either. If the blades followed the spine it'd make much more sense.

Now it's up to you. Agree with me, disagree with and defend the chosen design, make your own points about other designs. Let's get this going. My only objective is giving a heads up to the fine people at Black Hole Entertainment so to make them aware of their fan's opinion on the game in their care.

(PS: The Pit Lord is awesome, don't change a pixel)

[C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s]

Trust me, you're not alone on the dislike of all the over-the-top ornamentation on the armor and such. The spikes, hooks, exaggerated claws...sometimes simpler is BETTER. I've pushed and pushed on this front, but Black Hole likes this style. So does Ubisoft. I don't see it changing. It's far from anything we'd see from NWC to be sure, but overall...it's something I'll learn to deal with. I won't like it...but as long as the game play is good and the game is fun and addicting...art style is pretty low on my list of what's important in a Heroes game. For every unit they make that I simply despise...they've made one that's simply stunning. Overall, the art is an improvement over Nival IMO.

As for the naming...we can argue and debate these names back and forth all day long. Nobody is EVER going to agree on them. Feel free to toss in your suggestions and I'll try to make sure they're passed along, but from what I've seen thus far from BH & Ubi...if they like a name or a concept...they simply don't ask for suggestions from us. But it's always worth a shot...you've just got to pick and choose your battles. Complain and debate about everything...and it's just a bunch of white noise that gets ignored. Just my 2 cents worth.

[SandroTheMaster]

Well, I'm not asking for it to be simpler. But it could be more intricate in another way.

Props are fine, but they really work against the design when they appear to be tucked in instead of a natural complement of it. The lich doesn't need 100 kilograms of useless metal junk to look more intimidating and powerful, it just needs a more intricate and longer robe. A thicker armor or larger cape could do wonders where the spikes only detract from the vampire. What about implementing the classic vampire cape with tall folds around the neck?

In any case, it is good to know about your support Sir Charles.

Anyway, this thread is just as much about celebrating what works as it is about criticizing what doesn't. I'll later post more in-depth analysis on that, but right now the problems are more urgent than the qualities.

[EBugle]

It's too late to reall diaganose what I agree with and don't agree with what you said, so I won't do that right now (if I get around to it).

But I do thank you for bringing it up. I have to agree with you on the most part that I generally don't like the art style at all (though there are places where it's fine). The absurd ornamentation si probably the biggest factor. The armor looks more like.... decoration than armor. Why? The prettiest army doesn't win.

I suppose it's the old chainmail bikini despute all over again. It's impractical, useless in battle, and not worth it's weight.... but people find it "fashionable" so it sticks.

[Mr.Dragon]

In a nutshell, my thoughts.

Lich:
Kind of miss them being skeletal but overall, pretty fine.

Arch Lich:
Less metal, more cloth, more regal looking, more decayed.

Vampire:
Lose the long white hair, make it short black, possibly with a hint of gray, go more for that classic suave aristocrat look.
But that's just a minor complaint.

Vampire Lord:
Armor less spiky, more sleek yet still ornate.
Lose the helmet, Vampires should still suck blood, helmet is an annoyance on your head, particularly those parts of the visor near the mouth.
A circlet might convey the message better.

Ghost and Spectre:
Love em.

Skeleton and Bone Guard:
Nothing to say, love em.

Ghoul:
Fine.

Grave Ghoul:
Hooks in silly places are often a liability in combat.
More chains, less hooks, small spikes like those embedded in the shoulder are a great touch though, more of those instead of hooks would be great.
The "mandibles" hanging from the helmet are a nuisance.
Overall, I'm not to bothered by his as a whole though.


I can live with the current designs but would like them changed if possible.
But it's all a matter of taste regardless.


Edit:
"How to stop a charging ghoul! with Mr.Dragon."
"Good morning people, today I shall teach you how to stop a charging Grave Ghoul."
"First, you need a good strong rope or chain, multiple chains are even better."
"When you see a Grave Ghoul charge you, fling your ropes and or chains at it, chances are it will bat them aside, hooking its arms onto them."
"Next regardless of it trying to bat them away or ignoring it, it is likely to fall over and stumble."
"Now watch in amusement as the Ghoul tries to get up despite the fact that it's knees are attached to its helmet and its arms are tied back to the spine."

[SandroTheMaster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mr.Dragon:

Vampire:
Lose the long white hair, make it short black, possibly with a hint of gray, go more for that classic suave aristocrat look.
But that's just a minor complaint.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really, you didn't like the white hair? I thought it to be one of the nicest touches. It looks quite regal to me.

What do you think about the idea of a classic vampiric cape, though? Like the ones you could find in Might and Magic VIII and Heroes V's vampires.

[GoranXII]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Feel free to toss in your suggestions and I'll try to make sure they're passed along, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
1. Celestial &gt; Seraphim
2. Excruciator &gt; Terroriser
3. Hellhound &gt; Orthrus
4. Cerberus &gt; Infernal Orthrus

[Xenofex_086]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GoranXII:1. Celestial &gt; Seraphim </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Seraphim is the plural of Seraph. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
About the topic itself - I don't believe they will change any creature models, no matter how bad they are and how many people find them stupid (or someone has solid reasons to believe otherwise?). The names are worth a discussion or two though.

[GoranXII]

Hey, I was only suggesting name changes anyway, IMO the models are fine, at least the Necropolis and inferno ones (Haven could use some work though, too ornamental for my tastes).

[znork]

Well i dont like te over the top thing but the devs bascaly toled me that im old and should just learn to livet ithttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

They toled me in nice way thouge.

[Mr.Dragon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SandroTheMaster:
Really, you didn't like the white hair? I thought it to be one of the nicest touches. It looks quite regal to me.

What do you think about the idea of a classic vampiric cape, though? Like the ones you could find in Might and Magic VIII and Heroes V's vampires. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't like the hair for various reasons.
Admittedly, one of the cardinal reasons is Arthas from Warcraft, anything that reminds me of one of the most annoying villains of all time, especially one that usurped a great one with his complete mediocrity should burn in righteous fire.
Guess I'm a bit of a classic warcraft villain fanboy, and a few of the new ones just don't appeal to me at all, bring back a proper lich like Kel'Thuzad or better yet, Ner'Zuhl himself.
Both are twice the villain prince crybaby ever was.

Other then that, I think this particular style of long hair emasculates him.
Finally I prefer the more traditional "suave aristocrat" look to the "spoiled and sheltered prince" look.

As for the traditional high collared cloak, I don't think it fits very well with the current armor, but yeah, I'm a sucker for the high collared cloak.



Edit: Zork brings up a good point, the devs shouldn't JUST care about the old fanbase, but about attracting new blood, the over the top style is certainly eye catching, that is the first important step in getting your product purchased, that it stands out.

[C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s]

Keep tossing out the creature name ideas guys. We're actually discussing this very thing right now too. I/we will try to put forth some of your submissions as well.

[C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by znork:
Well i dont like te over the top thing but the devs bascaly toled me that im old and should just learn to livet ithttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

They toled me in nice way thouge. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's true. You are old. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[SandroTheMaster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mr.Dragon:
I don't like the hair for various reasons.
Admittedly, one of the cardinal reasons is Arthas from Warcraft, anything that reminds me of one of the most annoying villains of all time, especially one that usurped a great one with his complete mediocrity should burn in righteous fire.
Guess I'm a bit of a classic warcraft villain fanboy, and a few of the new ones just don't appeal to me at all, bring back a proper lich like Kel'Thuzad or better yet, Ner'Zuhl himself.
Both are twice the villain prince crybaby ever was. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, Prince Arthas uses the long white hair once and then the style is suddenly ruined forever?

I also don't like Arhas at all, but Warcraft is and has always been over-the-top. Initially it was just how games were but Blizzard apparently just deemed that their games didn't need to grow out of it.

But for me it feels right here. The long, silky hair gives him a whole level of superiority and arrogance that wouldn't be achieved with a shorter hair, a normal colored one (white hair implies age as well) or a knotted one. The shape of the head also helps immensely towards that goal (and the upgrade hiding that is just another reason for it to failing).

@ Sir Charles

Naming ideas? I'll be sure to oblige.

Seraph should be the upgrade of the new angels. "Celestial" just seems more generic, as to portray any denizen of the heavens. Celestial could be dealt out with completely, but you'd need a new name for the non-upgraded version. There I'm a bit stumped. Angel is good enough, but if the objective is to separate those angels from the previous ones then it doesn't work. You could call it one of the more obscure angels. Or call it Cherub. Anyone would probably associate "cherub" to lesser angels I guess.

Tormentor and Excruciator: Tormentor is better for the upgrade while excruciator doesn't feel particularly effective to convey anything. Maybe you can keep the tormentor as the non-upgraded and take from the naming school of adding [ADJECTIVE] before the name. Searing Tormentor, Scorching Tormentor, Blood Tormentor. If you really need the different name you can have the non-upgraded become Impaler, Spiker, or some other descriptive namesake and leave the upgrade as tormentor.

Pit Lord is fine, but I've always had a bit of problem with the Pit Fiend. But keeping the names for the familiar namesake is probably for the best.

Praetorian and Sentinel, Griffins and Imperial Griffins, Crossbowmen and Marksmen are all fine (maybe change Marksman to Sniper or Arbalester, but Marksman works).

Hellhound and Cerberus: Cerberus is iconically a large three headed dog, hellhound is iconically hounds from hell, if you mix them up you take the identity from both.

Keep both as cerberus. Have the upgraded cerberus have some adjective to it. Armored Cerberus, Spiked Cerberus, Metallic Cerberus, Chained Cerberus, Fiery Cerberus, Plated Cerberus, Grafted Cerberus, there's lots you can take from its description alone. But it can also be Vangeful Cerberus or something along those veins.

Juggernaut is actually quite good, but Ravager is sort of a generic description. It's like the Gnolls Marauders in Heroes 3. What exactly does it tells about them? The normal gnolls aren't marauders? Does the normal Juggernaut not ravage? Infernal Colossus maybe? Turn the Juggernaut into the upgrade? This is actually a good candidate for the "Searing" adjective for a infernal creature, too.

The others I've already talked about, but I can add to the Bone Guard either Bone Legion (or Legionnaire), Bone Troopers, Bone Soldiers, Bone Javeliners, all keeping with the "Bone" theme.

[SandroTheMaster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GoranXII:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Feel free to toss in your suggestions and I'll try to make sure they're passed along, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
1. Celestial &gt; Seraphim
2. Excruciator &gt; Terroriser
3. Hellhound &gt; Orthrus
4. Cerberus &gt; Infernal Orthrus </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you give us the source of the word Orthrus?

[GoranXII]

Sure thing, he's the brother (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthrus) of Cerberus.

[SandroTheMaster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GoranXII:
Sure thing, he's the brother (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthrus) of Cerberus. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interesting how I haven't exactly heard of it before...

Then again, Cerberus originally actually had HUNDREDS of heads. Greek myths and consistency don't exactly mix.

EDIT: Now that I think about it, a thousand-headed cerberus could be an awesome top tier for the inferno. Technically, even the normal cerberus is top-tier material, but I think people wouldn't be very keen to have a "simple" dog at the top of the food chain of hell...

[GoranXII]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Then again, Cerberus originally actually had HUNDREDS of heads. Greek myths and consistency don't exactly mix. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It was pinned down to three by most authors, with only Hesiod specifying 50. Strangely though, some of the depictions of the Herakles myth show the Cerberus with only two heads, but others stick with three.

Definitely though, the Hellhound has only ever had one head (or none in a few cases).

[Xenofex_086]

Cerberus is canonically three-headed or just multi-headed, with the first being far more common. There is one version where it is described as a normal - in terms of appearance, not size or qualities - one-headed dog, which is always accompanied by its two sons and this is why the picture often looks three-headed - but this is commonly disregarded.
I prefer both Cerberus and Orthrus to be dropped as names for the upgrade. I will post some suggestions later.

[Mr.Dragon]

I actually think that Cerberus would have been a great champion.

Look at how *donning flame proof suit*
DISNEY
*ducking for cover*
Did Cerberus in their take (butchering) of the story of Hercules (Heracles).
The beast was a massive being of black fur, muscle, razor fanged jaws and sheer terror.
Easily Champion material when adapted for it.

[C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s]

I must admit, I was thrown when I saw the name of Cerberus for the h6 unit. I mean, it's got 2 heads?!? To me, Cerberus has to have THREE heads to even be considered a Cerberus. Apparently I'm wrong on that, but I'd still prefer the 3-headed version.

I agree on Excruciator. I hate that name. I also prefer Tormented over Tormentor too.

But for me, I'll just be happy if I see the "genie" and not the "djinn" at some point.

[Xenofex_086]

OK, the names. Starting with the Necropolis' dead meat:

Skeleton/Bone Guard - as I mentioned already, Skeleton isn't amazingly creative, but it's not very bad either and could stay. My replacement for Bone Guard would be Skeleton Legionary.

Ghoul/Grave Ghoul - Ghoul could stay. Grave Ghoul however means... Ghoul, nothing else, so the name is in essence unchanged. Mutated Ghoul sounds a bit better to me and indicates an actual change of its attributes.

Ghost/Spectre - both of the names aren't very original, but I don't mind them staying. I would replace Spectre with Apparition or Phantasm because they are less commonly encountered in the fantasy games and will give the ladies some character.

Vampire/Vampire Lord - Vampire either stays or gets transformed to something that indicates that it is inferior to the upgraded version - like Neonate Vampire. The upgrade could be something which is not "lord" for a change, like Archvampire, but I don't mind it staying as it.

Lich/Archlich - all right, keep them alive if you want to. But why should they be Liches? Something looking like this could be called Spider Disciple (basic model) and Spider Wizard/Mage/Priest (upgraded model). The Necromancers are ex-Wizards and they worship the spidery aspect of Asha. It will make some sense at least.

About the others - later.

[SandroTheMaster]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mr.Dragon:
I actually think that Cerberus would have been a great champion.

Look at how *donning flame proof suit*
DISNEY
*ducking for cover*
Did Cerberus in their take (butchering) of the story of Hercules (Heracles).
The beast was a massive being of black fur, muscle, razor fanged jaws and sheer terror.
Easily Champion material when adapted for it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, no-one can fault Disney on design, animation and style.

We fault it for everything else, but not design, animation and style.