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BBFBrim
09-07-2005, 09:50 PM
Ever sense i beat Might and Magic 7 and 8 ive been in love with this series. Once i heard 3DO was going under i deamt a company like microsoft or UBI soft would buy the game and be able to give it the graphics it always deserved.

Dont get me wrong this game is amazing it doesnt need the graphics but with it MM would sell. Just imagine if a might and magic game came out with the graphical power of Oblivion. It almost makes my eyes water. I would bet my house a restored MM8 game to PC and XBox would have easily out sold Morrowind. I love morrwind but Might and magic takes the cake. im betting if the producers of MM 6-8 made a game true to those titles it easily would match oblivion.

Before any responces please tell me if im right, wrong, or undecided? The friends ive got addicted to MM would agree but what is everyone elses opinion here?

BBFBrim
09-07-2005, 09:50 PM
Ever sense i beat Might and Magic 7 and 8 ive been in love with this series. Once i heard 3DO was going under i deamt a company like microsoft or UBI soft would buy the game and be able to give it the graphics it always deserved.

Dont get me wrong this game is amazing it doesnt need the graphics but with it MM would sell. Just imagine if a might and magic game came out with the graphical power of Oblivion. It almost makes my eyes water. I would bet my house a restored MM8 game to PC and XBox would have easily out sold Morrowind. I love morrwind but Might and magic takes the cake. im betting if the producers of MM 6-8 made a game true to those titles it easily would match oblivion.

Before any responces please tell me if im right, wrong, or undecided? The friends ive got addicted to MM would agree but what is everyone elses opinion here?

BBFBrim
09-07-2005, 09:55 PM
I have massive problems with javascript on this forum so i cant edit or reply noramly i can only quick reply.

side note:
I believe having multiple char. helped make MM. Its understandable its harder to make a next gen game with multiple char but done right it could own.

Dregonar
09-07-2005, 09:59 PM
What is multiple char?

BBFBrim
09-07-2005, 10:00 PM
Remember in the past MM games you have a part of characters? Thats what i was talking about when i said multiple characters.

Dregonar
09-07-2005, 10:12 PM
I didn't play M&M because I don't approve of uncontlollable RPG's. So I have no idea what are you talking about.

Archaven
09-08-2005, 05:54 AM
I would like a 3rd person isometric view Party-Based Might & Magic RPG game.

That would be awesome since you could see all your characters! and what's more in action :drool:

However i know that there are still alot of M&M fans whom would prefer an First Person view. I wouldn't mind if they could switch forth between first person and 3rd person though.

ElrondHuhBard
09-13-2005, 11:33 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif Implementing a multi-character party (the hallmark of M&M allure and fame) with a third-person perspective would be an incredible challenge, to say the least! I would hate to play a Warcraft-style scenario where you have to constantly adjust your characters' movements on screen so if they could devise a hybrid/compromise system that allows ALL four party members to move simultaneously--not quite like they're all marching robotically side by side in unison, but still close to one another so they can all defend against or attack a common enemy--I could see that being worthwhile; otherwise, I like the traditional M&M format of simply showing your characters on screen without needing to see their bodies--nice, but not necessary! The graphics could always look better, however I thoroughly enjoyed M&M 6-8 to ever complain about the graphics! The makers of M&M are my favorite developers of all time! Viva la Might & Magic!!

Willey
09-13-2005, 11:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Archaven:
I would like a 3rd person isometric view Party-Based Might & Magic RPG game.

That would be awesome since you could see all your characters! and what's more in action :drool: </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd say you need Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
It's not M&M though, but AD&D rocks, and these games are a must for any RPG fan.

Hrafntinna
10-04-2005, 05:52 AM
I dunno, when I found out there was a new M&M game coming out I was thrilled. I've really missed the old style of RPGs and wanted to see them done justice with nice graphics and with some of the great new technology available now. I played all the M&M games I could get, the real ones that is not the crappy medieval shooters 3do made at the beginning of the end for them, and loved this series much more than Wizardry or Ultima.

But... there's so many of these single char action-adventure RPG-lite hack'n'slash games that have minor RPG traits that meh. Nothing new and compelling to make you really not want to miss a specific one of them ya know? You can barely throw a console controller without hitting at least 3 near identical such games. At least with Oblivion I know from past games from the developer that Bestheda can do decent RPGs that may be on the lighter side in story focus, but still have enough meat on the bone that I will bite. As an RPG player I just don't see what the thing is that will make me want to get this game rather than any other RPGlite action adventure. I'd hoped for something more along the lines of the old M&M games in terms of play, but the trailers make the game seem to be more like Hexen (not sure I got the right name, was basically a gritty wolfenstein in a fantasy setting) in the M&M world.

I miss the games that had parties, big cities with lots of npcs, lots of quests, lot of side quests, a story, and the stats. Goodness how I miss the stats. Everyone tries to shield you from confusing your poor little consumer brain from dealing with the stats these days. I guess RPG players aren't very smart and don't like numbers at all - all we really want is blood and boobs, story or stats are irrelevant as the bestselling RPGs like the Baldur's Gate or KotOR games show ;-)

Incidentally making a 3d game that uses a party in 3rd person is not at all hard. Dungeon Siege could do it (albeit poorly), BG games did it better with ability to write your own custom AI scripts for the characters you weren't controling at the moment. It's even doable in 1st person although that hasn't been done in a few years in an RPG. It's just not the 'in' thing to do anymore.

Willey
10-04-2005, 05:05 PM
stories and stats irrelevant - Baldur's Gate?

BG has lots of strory as well as stats (it's based on AD&D after all)

Szatany47
10-05-2005, 04:13 AM
Another game that had FP view and you played a party was Wizardry 8. Anyone played it? It was a wonderful game and I hope DM is at least partially similar.

Willey
10-05-2005, 01:41 PM
I played the Demo of W8... even have the full version of it flying around here somewhere, was in a game mag some momths ago http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Maybe I should install it... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

... after beating UW2 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Just because of DMoMM I felt like playing the old UW again and I beat UW1 about 1 and a half week ago, now I'm plaing UW2 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I also want to play BG1(tutu)+2 again, with a single character. Just played BG1+addon completely and BG2 until somewhere in the underworld. Now I want to beat it including ToB.

After that I've got some time maybe - until TES4:Oblivion is out. Still considering whether I install Arx again or try Wizardry http://www.ubisoft.de/smileys/13.gif .

Oblivion should keep me occupied until the next great RPG or DMoMM comes out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. It's probably Gothic 3, and I still hope for Heart of Eternity of which I haven't heard anything for quite some time now...

Archaven
10-05-2005, 10:02 PM
wow you sure have tonne of free time. i'm replaying dungeon siege 2 in veteran mode http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nara1986
10-06-2005, 06:56 AM
@ElrondHuhBard, the best game with that system you want would proberbly be Dungeon Siege 1+2 a good seires but it tended to stick alot.

@Szatany47 I've played W8, found it was fun to begin with but after three hours it became repeative, for I had two of the three orbs, and turned the game off, naven't really played it again.

@BBFBrim if you thought that MM7+8 were good you should play MM6+9 I completed 7 in two mounths the first time I played it and 8 in two WEEKS it destroyed the sieres for me, but 9 did see a large improvement to the seires. Dark Messiah should be good if they've improved that graphics from 9

Archaven
10-06-2005, 08:44 PM
I like both Might & Magic 6 and 7. However 7 is the best for me because i'd even dreamt of the floating angelic town of celeste :P

solder05
10-09-2005, 05:35 PM
Both plays are good and I will also buy both to myself

bluespecter0
10-09-2005, 09:31 PM
I like Oblivion more. (not that don't like this game) I just like Oblivion more because you can do whatever you want. Break into jail and kill people. Break into shops at night, have conversations with npcs, buy or steal a horse, buy houses, kill whoever you want, stand on a building and throw stuff at people, design your character and more lol.

Jamie1900
10-17-2005, 12:26 AM
Only if it's an RPG. Isn't there at least any dialgoue?

Sergom
10-18-2005, 11:39 PM
I hope it is actually an Oblivion alternative if not opponent.

I like Morrowwind except for one thing. You should be able to win the game without becoming the Neverine. You ought to be able to tell Cauius to take a hike. You don't believe in reincarnation and refuse to have anybody make you into a hero that you arn't.

I think a pretty good story line could be built arround that kind reaction. You could have a group of people chasing you trying to make you change your mind and another trying to kill you. Maybe you let the dark lord under Red Mountain win or maybe Vivec finds a way to beat him or maybe you catch the last ship for the mainland.

I actually started a Morrowwind mod soing this but the number of hours , characters and quest needed to make it work was just staggering and I have a real job to work and a family to feed.

Dregonar
10-19-2005, 11:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jamie1900:
Only if it's an RPG. Isn't there at least any dialgoue? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

RPG does not necessarily have dialogue or some other things. Diablo has no dialogue, nox has no level ups. An RPG is just a game where you are influenced mostly by parameters.

Archaven
10-20-2005, 12:12 AM
I disagree. RPG stands for role playing game. How can you role play a character without even talking?

Diablo was termed as an RPG simply because it shares one of the aspects of RPG which is character development.

HexHammer
10-20-2005, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Archaven:
I disagree. RPG stands for role playing game. How can you role play a character without even talking? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The answer is simple.

With you'r actions, you have a role in the desteny of the world you roam.
But do you consider mute people, to have no role in life? They too have jobs, they too activly forge and have a place in society.

Toxisas
10-24-2005, 06:42 AM
heh if u say that diablo was an rpg, than I can state that doom or quake or whatever is a rpg to. Because yea it has some rpg elements (your health increace during play, you get new weapons... and if you become stronger (gain armor shards) - yay we have an rpg!
People, wake up! RPG is role playing game - you play roles! from what you do depends a following storry, that's first part, second key element of rpg is quests (not the 3 or 4 per that were in diablo) quests that you do to gain experiance and/or money. Quests that are of two kinds: quests that are essential for a gameplay, and sidequests - quests that are just for a greater joy of play!
And the other thing rpg may be only p&p (pen and paper) all other stuff is cRpg (computer), LaRpg (Life Action - people dressed funny running in the woods playing elves and stufhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.. and maybe some other branches of rpg.. but never and i say it for sure, never will crpg be as good as rpg (because in rpg u have freedom of moves - you can do everything you want...
anyway I'm sad that Dark messiah will not be a m&mX but i'll gladly play a epic fantasy fps in a m&m universehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ColdHeat_MM
10-25-2005, 06:22 AM
@Dregonar you dont seem to know anything about RPGs. Diablo is an Action-RPG. Whereas M&M series were real RPGs. Since you haven't played any, you can't compare.
------------

Most of the people over here, came here seeing the Might & Magic title, thinking the series is continued. Some expect LoMM-CoMM taste, some expect real MM taste. But all are MM fans to some degree.

You see, this game, DMoMM, wouldn't have any supporter if it was a completely new game.(!) Ubi Soft is getting the attention of MM fans simply by naming it MM. If you ask me, this is a completely new game.

What I wanna hear is that there will be a proper M&M 10 game with true MM style RPG. Right now, there is nt anything attractive about it. If its graphics are gonna be comparable to Oblivion so what? I'll buy Oblivion for God's sake. At least it will be original. I don't have tonnes of time to waste at anything Ubi Soft is gonna throw at me, im not a cow to milk.

Dregonar
10-25-2005, 09:32 PM
Well, you can't live on series forever, you have to seek out new games too.

Speaking of RPG - well, excuse me, if all RPG is is quests, story, and dialogues - than it's no RPG, it's an adventure game. Broken Sword, Siberia!

Hrafntinna
10-28-2005, 03:32 PM
I might have been slightly sarcastic Wiley in reference to BG2, I enjoyed the story and stats of those games far more than their cutting edge 2d graphics in the at-the-time 3d graphics game market. ;-)

Considering that one of the major dislikes a lot of people had with Morrowind was the dialog system they did say that they worked to fix that. Scrapping the entire keyword list approach that only detracted from the experience. That makes me hopeful they've learned in terms of player conversation interface. Bioware style is so much better at making the world feel alive.

I'm still very meh on this new 'might and magic' game. I'm not a shooter fanatic (being an RPG player primarily) so claims that the gameworld follows real physics rules just make me yawn. Improved physics in a game mean nothing to me since I don't generally play role playing games to ooh and ahh over the engine but to play a role in a story that's interesting. So I can knock some rocks on a guy's head, great. Still tells me nothing about whether the story is good, engaging, whether the NPCs are interesting, whether the gameworld feels alive or like a level out of the latest FPS and so on. I guess from what they've put out so far to present the game I just don't see why a fan of the real MM games would be interested.

Piln_
10-29-2005, 08:54 AM
@Hrafntinna, I would suggest playing Arx Fatalis, if you haven't done so already. As you may know, it is the previous game by DM developer Arkane. It had a pretty good demo that made a really good introduction to the game's potential, so check it out if you're curious.

Arx Fatalis was divisive among RPGers, as it is a realtime RPG with (potentially) lots of action - some regarded it as a "proper" RPG in the mould of Ultima Underworld (which was the developers' intention), some regarded it as an action game (but typically, those who didn't like it would not take the time to see what you could do besides hacking & slashing). The role-playing came primarily in the form of vastly different gameplay experiences depending on your character makeup and preference of playing style - the obvious balance of fighting, spellcasting and sneaking could be mixed and matched freely, and augmented by alchemy, stealing, trap-spotting, weaponsmithing, etc. If you wanted to wade in like Conan, you could; an assassin would play a game with the pace and tension of Thief (poisoned arrows from the shadows), and a mage would find a variety of tactics viable, some subtle, some explosive. Diplomacy was open to all players - while no conversation options were given, talking to people and acting on found information would allow non-violent resolutions to many problems. Put simply, Arx had about the same balance of action and roleplaying as its inspiration, Ultima Underworld.

Now, it may be that DM will turn out to be more action-heavy than Arx with less opportunities for non-violent play, it may not - there just isn't enough information available to us to know either way. But what data is available so far (in particular, check out this interview with Raphael Colantonio (http://www.playdevil.com/interviews/Dark_Messiah_Might_And_Magic/Dark_Messiah_Might_And_Magic.shtml) that explains his design approach) suggests a game very similar in mechanics and gameplay to Arx Fatalis, and very much in the "Looking Glass" style of versatile, unpredictable gameplay made possible by giving the player lots of freedom of choice in a highly simulated (as opposed to scripted) world. Speaking of which, the real point of an advanced physics system, as ignored by so many developers, is not simply to create spectacle and the occasional kill-enemy-with-box pratfall, but to aid the ability of the player to do what they want within the game world - to be restricted only by their character's abilities and their own imagination, as in p&p RPing - which IMO is the essence of what CRPGs should be. Looking Glass were definitely onto this, and Arkane are too.

To be honest, I don't really mind if it turns out to be action-heavy (most RPGs are anyway, at least this one will be fun to play http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) - but I have a feeling it'll be less shallow than you fear. Try out the Arx demo (or full game), take away the rough-around-the-edges feel and the obvious problems caused by low budget and messy localisation (as these are highly unlikely to occur with DM), and also bear in mind the fact that Arx used Arkane's own scratch-built engine, whereas Source addressed all their technical requirements for DM from day one, and your confidence for this game might just improve.

[edit]: oh yeah, Oblivion and DM for me too - why compete? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I do think DM will be more to my taste, but I think Oblivion looks to be really addressing the things I disliked about previous ES games, so I'm feeling positive about it too.

ColdHeat_MM
10-29-2005, 12:38 PM
Not good enough to make me feel better about this game lol.

Piln_
10-29-2005, 12:44 PM
What's not good enough? You've played Arx Fatalis? Or you mean the DM interviews or previews? Articulate, please.

Hrafntinna
10-29-2005, 02:12 PM
I have, and for a smaller developer Arx Fatalis was an exceptionally well made game. It reminded me more of UU or Eye of the Beholder though than MM, Ultimas, Wizardry or other meatier CRPGs. At heart it is the rather restrictive and area limited dungeon crawl. Which it was exceptionally good at, it's one of the few recent European RPGs I enjoyed playing.

If it had had more NPCs, more quests and slightly more focus on them, and outdoor areas with more monsters and of course parties it would have felt like playing MM's worthy successor. MM were never very small games, Arx would have been around two or maybe 3 maps in an MM game.

That interview does nothing to make me interested. It's basically 95% talk about the engine with a single question about the RPG aspects in this shooter. Either they're really marketing this as a fantasy shooter with minor CRPG aspects, or they're horribly failing at presenting the game accurately. Neither is exactly reassuring as one means it has nothing really in common with the real Might and Magic games and the other means there's a level of incompetence that does not, in the words of Deckard Cain, bode well.

Piln_
10-29-2005, 02:33 PM
That's a shame, I thought you might find the mention of support of various playing styles (in conjunction with skill selections) encouraging. Still, I'm glad you liked Arx Fatalis - do you get the impression DM will be much different?

As for the marketing, I can't help feeling they're shying away from labelling this as an RPG because they know to do so will disappoint M&M fans (even more than it has already http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) - it seems clear to me that they are playing down this aspect (as has been mentioned, the official line seems to be that this is an "action game," but the interview clearly mentions the RPG elements which, IMO, sound very close to those in Arx). I agree, if this is the case it may be a mistake, as they may bypass many fans of Arx and the Underworlds who are after just this type of RPG. Of course, it may be that the game is almost devoid of RPing elements, but the evidence so far does not suggest that to me.

There's no doubt this game will be different from the core M&Ms in terms of gameplay and environment, but regarding the latter, here is something I remember from Arkane's early suggestions about Arx 2: do you remember it had a rather interesting setting in which the world's sun had been blocked out, hence the underground civilisations? Many players (myself included) expected a direct sequel in which travel on the planet's frozen surface would be depicted, but Arkane announced that they would instead be making a prequel set before the solar eclipse, which would feature large outdoor areas as well as the expected caves & dungeons. Maybe such environments will appear in DM, but to be honest the videos don't seem to suggest that. Still, you never know what might happen between now and release (a game-designer friend of mine speculates that level-building may be one of their major tasks at this point in time), and if the game turns out to be moddable...

Hrafntinna
10-30-2005, 05:11 AM
Well, the thing about Arx is this, right now I remember next to nothing about the world. The setting. I remember some of the puzzles quite vividly, but I don't even remember what enemies I was fighting or why.

It's what I call the Microsoft RPG Syndrome since I get that after playing all of their attempts at RPGs (something to be grateful for I guess, the M&M licence could have gone to MS and they could be up to M&M15 and we wouldn't even remember it!). You remember nothing about the game world because while the puzzles made an impression none of the background did. I don't remember what the devil I was trying to do or stop in Dungeon Siege 1, I barely remember in Dungeon Siege 2 because I was playing it a month ago (a month and I've already forgotten half of that game haha), I vaguely remember running for hours in Asheron's Call and so on. One of these thing is Arx's story. The list goes on, Lionheart, ToEE, Divine Divinity/Beyond Divinity - except for the later part of BD, I remember it because I laughed so hard at it I was in physical pain at times.

That's a common pit for action rpgs especially, if they're not superbly done they leave less of an impression than your last McDonalds meal. Or rather, you may remember some puzzle you thought was cool but cannot for the life of you remember why you were doing it. The well done ones you remember very strongly for their setting. It would be extremely hard to forget the gothic bleak setting of Diablo for instance. In those cases I remember why I was doing what I was doing. And this is true for all the subtypes of games. It's just that the more actiony the game the less chance there generally is to really show off your fluff. Especially on low to mid budget titles.

Dregonar
10-30-2005, 05:35 AM
Just played Arx Fatalis demo a little. Well, I REALLY hope DM won't be like that. The designer of Arx GUI had something wrong with his head. TO pick something up you should open a separate menu and drag the object in there. Why not just make button "e" for automatic picking up? Then, objucts that can be thrown - you can put letter "f" for them. Left mouse can attack. "e" will also mean talk, activate. Right mouse can cast spell, not the pressing of Ctrl and standing still while aiming. And it took me hours to light that stupid torch.

Fortunately, the fights are good. But at the same, the bone seems to hit not the rat itself, but an area around it, but still gets the rat.

Setting is empty, just like the guy above said. Doesn't drag.

If the game has no decent exp system, it's a typical slasher, but FP. And that's all. I hope DM will normal...

Piln_
10-30-2005, 08:05 AM
Well, it doesn't like we'll all agree any time soon http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif, but there's no point getting into the "what is an RPG?" debate - I'm sure we've all endured it enough times. For me personally, the most important aspect of a CRPG is that player choice makes a difference - as long as their is some form of character development, the complexity of number-crunching doesn't matter to me at all. Looking Glass came closer to nailing it than anyone else, and Arkane are continuing some of the same principles.

My favourite CRPGs are Ultima Underworld, Planescape Torment, Arx and the Fallouts. I also have a soft spot for the Elder Scrolls series, but every instalment has been ambition-over-gameplay so far IMO. I really don't like the pseudo-realtime Infinity Engine style of play, PS:T being the only exception because was so incredibly well-designed and -written. I despised Diablo. And I hate the fact that most traditional RPGs (being mostly turn-based or IE-style) and including my experience of M&M7, are absolutely neck-deep in compulsory combat, yet purists still turn their noses up at modern RPGs with depth and flexibility (like Arx) because they're realtime and they look like FPSs. The old-school ones are OK, because they look like "traditional" RPGs, the new ones don't so they're bad - content isn't even considered. Superficial judgement defeats reason.

@Dregonar: what do you mean by a decent exp system? I found the one in Arx to be pretty much the same as most "traditional" RPGs, ie, you get exp for combat and reaching goals, you level up and spend your points. Incidentally, I don't like this system, I believe a more "organic" one like in the ES games (or Call Of Cthulhu p&p), if balanced properly, is the way to go.

You'll get no argument from me about the clunkiness and general lack of polish in Arx. I love the game, but was one of its most vocal critics on the official forums. The production values and polish were very poor, but I think it's pretty safe to assume that those things will be a lot better with DM, with a good publisher like Ubisoft and licensed technology like Source.

Just a quick note about the weapon use in Arx - you swing differently by using your movement keys as you attack - if you swing sideways in a tunnel or corridor, you'll hit the walls; if you do an overhead bash to hit a rat or spider, you'll also hit the floor. Use the "back" key to thrust when in enlosed spaces, and you'll only hit your enemy (not the scenery), thus prolonging the life of your weapon.

Hrafntinna
10-30-2005, 03:40 PM
Oh, we agree on some things. I too consider Planescape Torment to be one of, if not the, best written RPG. The Fallouts I loved. TES games were, they had a lot of good stuff and I always look forward to their games but some of their design decisions made me scream "I just want to know where I am you bastards give me a decent frigging map".

Don't get me wrong though, I've enjoyed some action RPGs. Quite a few in fact. There's just far too many of them and many aren't very good. Not because they look like shooters but because they play too so much like one for me to be able to play them. Hellgate: London promises to not be dependant on RL agility, it is a hack'n'slash pseudo-rpg and I'm looking forward to it so bad. It's the RP part where you need to have extremely good real reflexes to accomplish something as your character. It doesn't sit well with me as my coordination is impared by circumstances of my birth, I will never be as quick as the average person, the faster paced and the more relied upon the combat is the less I can play it.

A lot of these action RPGs like to say that your skill as a player is substitute for character skill. I suck at agility, why would I want to play a game that relies on my agility rather than my character's? It defeats a lot of the RP part of the game. I am not my character. I cannot cast fireballs, nor carry bags with 3 complete suits of plate mail and still jump 6 feet chasms. This pure fast paced RT with no ability to slow the action down to manegable levels means only one thing for someone like me, I can't play. I could cheat my entire way through, but that's not really playing the game as I enjoy challenges that are beatable.

Those without the reflexes are left in the cold by those games and when most games require them then what do the slower or older gamers do? I mean if there were no cheater sites or ways to get the answers other than knowing them would someone with an IQ of 80 play an insanely hard quiz game? And that is why most current action RPGs do not appeal to me. Those whom I can play and who are well made I quite enjoy. The reason more older ones are on my list than newer ones isn't that I'm judging them by looks, it's that as the games have progressed they've gotten faster and faster. There's varying degrees of realtime, and at the lower end of that range is a line I physically am incapable of playing past. Also the reason I played HoMM rather than Warcraft.

Piln_
10-30-2005, 04:58 PM
Ah, I see. I was ignorant of your circumstances, so I apologise if I've been out of line. Ever the optimist, I feel compelled to say that maybe the stealthy and magic-using avenues in DM will not pose a problem; I'm imagining the assassin's game to be slow-paced and meticulous, favouring planning and patience over reflexive action-game ability (much like Thief 2 or an Arx character trained in stealth and archery). I imagine an all-round spellcaster will have quite a range of approaches available - it's not a given that magic-fuelled combat will be the only way, but possible that via clever use of magic and the simulated environment you can confound your foes rather than engaging them - i really do believe the dev's are aiming to leave these decisions in the hands of the player.

While unfortunately I doubt that the entire game will be playable without direct combat, I was very pleasantly surprised in Arx to find that the final boss could be dispatched by simple, stealthy assassin tactics - often, games will force a direct confrontation in order to (artificially) squeeze that extra bit of difficulty out, but that only serves to invalidate certain character choices and make the ending a chore for some players. I'm pretty confident Arkane will ensure the game is supportive of any character skill choices from start to finish, and I'm certain stealthy play will be viable. Of course, the game's a long way from finished, and I could be totally wrong... so I guess we'll just have to wait and see! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I know what you're saying about player skill vs. character skill, it's a debate I've become embroiled in before and I find the issue very interesting, but unfortunately it usually leads to arguments. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif It's one thing to discuss what is conceptually "correct" for a given genre, but when you're talking about whether people are physically able to play at all it casts the whole debate in a different light, particularly when you consider this genre's roots. And I don't believe this is something the games industry at large has even begun to tackle in a meaningful way.

Dregonar
10-30-2005, 05:08 PM
Well, I prefer either set system - you choose a class, and go along, such as Nox. Or improvment by yourself - Gothic, Fable style. I hate the half-class half-automatic systems like Morrowind. It's OK if you fight good with an axe because you are an orc, but if you are some breton and chose axe combat, you are not supposed to have 50 axe skill already. And in Nox your class was locked up and there were really nothing to do about it. Same with heXen. By choosing a class, you just set your style of play. And with Gothic system - at first you know a tiny bit of everything, and later you improve. Unfortunately, such type is so far unbalanced - you can learn magic, combat and archery all in one game... Well, never mind, I can live with a bad exp system because Arx Fatalis already has fun fights, but still...

Speaking of the sleekness - well, when I first saw the game, if it wasn't for you, I would have sent it to recycle bin at once... Is it so hard to shine out your game? Whatever... I as well think they'll take care of that in DM. Yes, gameplay is the most important, but sleekness, for lack of better word, is the first impression, reason why I play only FPS so far. Only I can read in write, both in English and Russian, don't worry, I'm not a stupid gamer who only plays CS his whole life.

Piln_
10-30-2005, 06:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dregonar:
Yes, gameplay is the most important, but sleekness, for lack of better word, is the first impression... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know what you mean, this is true... I think it is more true of the console market, but that's only because there's no standardised quality control for PC games. I personally do put up with buggy games on PC sometimes, but that's probably because I've been into computers and gaming since 8-bit days and all through the memory-management nightmare of DOS gaming. But really, I'm more tolerant than I think I should be: in this day and age, PC game developers should be as committed to putting their game out in a polished state as they are to cramming in all their cool design features and content. I'm not saying they should all be over-produced sensory assaults like Burnout 3, but the elimination of bugs and tidy presentation should be top of the list.

I'm glad that the Elder Scrolls games are now coming from joint PC and console development cycles, because like all console manufacturers (but unlike the PC games market) Microsoft has certain quality standards that must be met - so we know the PC versions will also be solid, and hopefully this will rub off on other PC RPGs (after all, they are in competition with each other).

As for skill & character development systems, I tend to go for the more freeform and unrestricted ones. I really don't like the D&D way of doing things; Arx and Elder Scrolls are probably my two favourites so far - actually, Deus Ex too.

Arx sticks to traditions I don't like - leveling-up, fixed exp amounts for slaying monsters, and improving skills after the fact (so, I can gain a level using nothing but my sword, then spend all my skill points on alchemy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif ), but is saved IMO by the fact there are no classes and I can build whatever character I want. I didn't find the balance to be too bad - you always had enough points to build a versatile character with two main areas of expertise (ie, fighter/thief, fighter/mage) who would be competent throughout the game. However, if you went for a "pure" fighter or spellcaster, you'd probably stomp through the game with little difficulty, and while it was possible to avoid much of the combat, the reliance on monster-killing exp meant that a true thief character would be under-developed late in the game.

I love the skill development in ES games - you get better at a skill by using it, that really is the best way, IMO. Unfortunately, it's difficult to balance, and will probably always be open to exploits. I don't like levels, but I do like the way ES handles them - a thief gains levels by becoming a better thief, not by clearing a dungeon. What I don't like in ES is the heavy restrictions on skills and equipment based on race. We'll see what changes have been made in Oblivion... I heard that stats now improve organically, like skills?

I actually really like the blank-slate approach in Gothic - I agree, it needs a bit of direction later in the game, but RPGs rarely let the player get stuck in right away. It's nice to be able to skip the character sheet once in a while. What I really liked about Deus Ex was that it used a simplified "traditional" exp system, but ditched any notion of exp-for-killing - you could achieve your goals however you wanted and not worry about dropping points.

Dregonar
10-31-2005, 05:30 PM
Well, Deus Ex is an FPS actually, just like heXen, only it has RPG elements...

The Elder Scrolls system is OK but it's locked up and at the same time free. They done it right but they give a start number, but why on Earth, being just out of prison, I'm a cool axe fighter and can crush anyone? But at the same type, I have no hope learning spells. Nope... In fact, it's very hard to combine unlike skills unless your race appeals to them.

Same with Arx - there you had to pick who you are at the beggining... That means being with high strength, you had trouble researching alchemy... But you started in dungeon, still you fight better... When I played Fable, it was this feeling of improvement - first I get this lousy boy who can't hit anything, but later on he is much more skilled with sword if I fight with it... And in Arx the rats die after one hit. Can you kill a giant rat with a bone? I can't. And I sure can't lift a gigantic axe. In Fable, you were extremely slow with axe if you had low physics. In Gothic or Diablo you couldn't equip heavy weapons. And TES has no such restriction...

I personaly play games around since Warcraft II and DooM. My first beloved games were this Warcraft, which I think is better than Warcraft III, and then there were Starcraft, I like that one too. In RPG I played only Diablo, later Nox, never got around Fallout or Daggerfall for some reason. And FPS were Heretic, which then evolved in heXen, and Heretic/heXen series were my favorite games after I played them about 3 years ago (at first time I played them I had no idea of a storyline and didn't even finish the game - was 5-7 years old...). Well, that's just for background, but that's the time when I started to play, so now DosBox is not that uncommon on my PC - Arena, Daggerfall, Warcraft I-II, Heroes I, blah-blah-blah. Thanksfully, Heretic/heXen are not on there...

Piln_
11-01-2005, 07:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dregonar:
Well, Deus Ex is an FPS actually, just like heXen, only it has RPG elements... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Well, we could get into a big debate over that, but I don't think it's a good idea, let's not (0_-)

But the important point in this discussion is about Deus Ex's experience system - whatever you regard that game to be, it had a better and more sensible experience system than most CRPGs, and one that more closely resembled the majority of p&p RPGs in my experience.

It's funny, but not many p&p RPGs actually used character levels or monster-killing exp, or many of the D&D-like traits that continue to plague CRPGs and hold back their evolution. While both companies stick to a lot of conventions I dislike, I respect Arkane and Bethesda for trying to take CRPGs in a different direction and break away from the old "D&D simulators" that weigh the genre down.

[edit]: Dregonar, since you can play old DOS games, have you tried out Ultima Underworld 1 or 2, or the original System Shock? They're dated, there's no doubt about that, and they both have fiddly controls - but if you're not put off by very old games, you might love them.

witcheli
01-13-2006, 02:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Archaven:
I would like a 3rd person isometric view Party-Based Might & Magic RPG game.

That would be awesome since you could see all your characters! and what's more in action :drool:

However i know that there are still alot of M&M fans whom would prefer an First Person view. I wouldn't mind if they could switch forth between first person and 3rd person though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
M&M 6 with switch of person from first person to third person with "Never Winter Night" Graphics and Dialog sound Ideal for me
but I am not playing any more
Eli the witch