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View Full Version : Al-Qaeda hates us because of... heroin???



Demon_Mustang
04-18-2004, 12:05 PM
Someone please correct me if I'm not completely accurate here.

For who knows how long on these forums, the likes of MNG, Gandalf, and others have bathed us in the rhetoric that if we hadn't stuck our heads into the middle-east that they wouldn't hate us so much, and they wouldn't have anything against us.

Well, let me go through a very brief history lesson here. There is an area called the "Golden Crescent" that encompasses that area in the middle east including parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Poppy seeds, the key ingredient in Opium, which is refined into Heroin, needs hot dry climate to grow. This area of limestone rich soils and the dry heat we all know of the middle-east, is one of the ideal places where heroin is manufactured.

I'm sure we all know about our involvement with the Afghan-Soviet war after their invasion in 1979. Many "experts" will say that is when the United States made their first appearance on the Afghan people's radar. And it was because we didn't continue to help them after the war that caused all the hate.

Well, what if that was just the catalyst, just a big enough event where people like Osama Bin Laden, who suffers from narcissism, would find an opportunity to gain power by rallying the people against what can be perceived as a common enemy?

The fact is, prior to 1979, the US have always been on the Afghan people's radar. That's because for many years, they have been manufacturing and distributing heroin to Europe and the United States. We've had long time relations with the Afghan people long before the 1979 Soviet invasion. So to try to blame our involvement in the Afghan-Soviet war as the event that sparked a hatred for us is ridiculous.

We did not initiate any relations with the Afghan people, in fact, they were the ones that started exporting heroin to the United States illegally. So it was in fact them who initiated our relations. Not to mention, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration have been trying to crack down on the heroin plants in Afghanistan, and they have been actively trying to avoid our agents prior to 1979. So perhaps the real motive for their hatred toward us is that we have been trying to suppress their income from their illegal activities.

So either way, they were committing the crime, we were trying to catch them, so if they hate us for it, that's not our fault, we were simply trying to enforce the laws...

Any thoughts? Anyone believe I'm wrong about their involvement in international heroin trafficking?

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Demon_Mustang
04-18-2004, 12:05 PM
Someone please correct me if I'm not completely accurate here.

For who knows how long on these forums, the likes of MNG, Gandalf, and others have bathed us in the rhetoric that if we hadn't stuck our heads into the middle-east that they wouldn't hate us so much, and they wouldn't have anything against us.

Well, let me go through a very brief history lesson here. There is an area called the "Golden Crescent" that encompasses that area in the middle east including parts of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Poppy seeds, the key ingredient in Opium, which is refined into Heroin, needs hot dry climate to grow. This area of limestone rich soils and the dry heat we all know of the middle-east, is one of the ideal places where heroin is manufactured.

I'm sure we all know about our involvement with the Afghan-Soviet war after their invasion in 1979. Many "experts" will say that is when the United States made their first appearance on the Afghan people's radar. And it was because we didn't continue to help them after the war that caused all the hate.

Well, what if that was just the catalyst, just a big enough event where people like Osama Bin Laden, who suffers from narcissism, would find an opportunity to gain power by rallying the people against what can be perceived as a common enemy?

The fact is, prior to 1979, the US have always been on the Afghan people's radar. That's because for many years, they have been manufacturing and distributing heroin to Europe and the United States. We've had long time relations with the Afghan people long before the 1979 Soviet invasion. So to try to blame our involvement in the Afghan-Soviet war as the event that sparked a hatred for us is ridiculous.

We did not initiate any relations with the Afghan people, in fact, they were the ones that started exporting heroin to the United States illegally. So it was in fact them who initiated our relations. Not to mention, the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration have been trying to crack down on the heroin plants in Afghanistan, and they have been actively trying to avoid our agents prior to 1979. So perhaps the real motive for their hatred toward us is that we have been trying to suppress their income from their illegal activities.

So either way, they were committing the crime, we were trying to catch them, so if they hate us for it, that's not our fault, we were simply trying to enforce the laws...

Any thoughts? Anyone believe I'm wrong about their involvement in international heroin trafficking?

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

MDS_Geist
04-18-2004, 12:19 PM
This seems to be a reaction piece - what is it in response to?

First, a correction - Afghanistan and Pakistan are not part of the Middle East, but rather central Asia. Technically the Middle East is "Southwest Asia," but it does not include those nations in any event. Also, who diagnosed Bin Laden with narcissisitic personality disorder?

The prevalence of poppies as a crop is simple economics. They offer a massive return on investment for the farmer. In a number of places poppies still grow wild, and children harvest them for their tribe and village. There is also considerable legitimate poppy growing taking place for medical uses. It's a pretty tough plant, which is why fields are burned and salted in some cases. This of course leaves the tribes who depedned on the income in rather poor condition.

But it would seem that there is a conflation of issues here. The conflict between the heroin suppliers and the terrorists does have some overlap but it is not the same fight. Many of the poppy growers are not terrorists, merely people who sell their crops to men with large amounts (to the farmers) of cash and weapons.

Yes, many of the terrorist supporters and terrorists themselves engage in the drug trade. It is lucrative and relatively low risk for them - and they do not consider it religiously reprehensible to poison infidels. But by and large, we had not (until recently) tasked military units to the task of drug suppression. Instead we worked through intermediaries and the international community to try and slow down and/or stop the drug trade. Frankly, both efforts have had relatively limited effectiveness.

But I'm not sure how fair it would be to say that the Afghan people hate the US because of this or even in spite of it. We're not dealing with a homogenous group of people, but a very diverse collection of tribal cultures and ethnicities. Some of them are very actively involved in the heroin trade, while others oppose it. But be that as it may, they have equally diverse attitudes towards the United States and the West as a whole.

The Right to command is bought with Duty, the Privilege of rank is Service.

Demon_Mustang
04-18-2004, 12:37 PM
The manufacture of heroin is a very labor intensive process. Large amounts of poppy plants are needed to make small amounts of the drug. And there are very specific ways they are grown depending on the purpose. The plantations I'm speaking of are known to be for the manufacture of heroin. I don't think they are still there now, but this is prior to 1979.

During this time, their heroin export made up a great deal of income for the Afghan people, similar to how Cocaine sales help the Colombian economy. In fact, without the Cocaine industry, Colombia's economy would crash. Not sure if that's the case with Afghanistan at the time, but I do know that combatting their drug trade only made enemies since it was very important to them.

Also, I'm not saying all of Afghan people hate us, but individuals have used the excuse of the Afghan-Soviet war to rally people up against us. I don't think it was actually because of that war that those individuals hate us. I believe that they have always wanted to do something, and found this time of despair a great opportunity to gain power.

Obviously even if it was income from drug trade that initiated the movement, and I'm not sure if there are any direct ties between Bin Laden and any heroin income, don't think there are any direct ties, but whatever the initial motivation is, is probably lost to history.

I've always known about the "Golden Crescent" but never really thought of it this way, and didn't really realize that this has been going on during the time period long before the Afgha-Soviet war. It's mainly just a response to all the allegations that it was the US that intiated relations with them and somehow caused them to take arms against us. Basically it's MNG trying to find a way to blame everything on us.

I am just presenting a fact that they've known us, and had reason to not like us long before that time. So it's unreasonable to use the Soviet invasion as the root cause of our problems with them.

I believe that the intentions have existed long before our actions in that conflict, and it doesn't have to be because of the heroin trade, but it could have been many other things.

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Demon_Mustang
04-18-2004, 12:53 PM
Geist, I just looked into it, and duh, am I stupid, of course the Golden Crescent poppy seed plantations still existed until recently. They were actually the main source of income that allowed them to purchase weapons. Afghanistan was the world's largest producer of heroin in 1998 and the Taliban controlled most of it. Heroin sales funded most of the world's extremist Islamic movements.

Basically, the main source of funding for terrorists comes from the heroin trade. At least as of 1998.

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Cowanchicken
04-19-2004, 10:40 AM
This is part of the reason the stuff should be legalised in the states IMO. Yeah it's potent stuff, but better that it's sale be controlled and regulated by the government than the profits going to scumbags and terrorists.

Demon_Mustang
04-19-2004, 11:22 AM
Um, great, so instead of the terrorists getting money to kill us, we will just kill ourselves. Wonderful... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Not to mention even if it is legal, it can still only be grown in certain conditions, and USA does not handle it. So either way we would be importing it from Afghanistan and they will be getting the profits anyhow...

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

buccaneer
04-19-2004, 11:48 AM
Except for the fact that the profits will be on par with any other agricultural produce.

Legalizing drugs would effectively end the "war on drugs" , freeing money that than can be used to fund the "war on terrorism"

Thoramir
04-19-2004, 11:58 AM
I don't have a big problem with legalizing some of the currently illegal drugs in this country except that some of these drugs (not all) are so dangerous that they pose a serious risk to both the users and people unfortunate enough encounter them. In the US the problems would not just go away if they were legalized there are places in the country where other factors compound the problems of drug use compared to places in Europe.

http://img40.photobucket.com/albums/v124/Thoramir/Troutsig2.jpg
Yeeeeaaaaarrrrgggghhhh!

buccaneer
04-19-2004, 12:05 PM
I agree. Legalising drugs won't make the problem go away. But it won't make it worse either. Its a myth that people will start to use it easier or more frequently when drugs would be legal. Here in Holland Marihuana is legal to use for decades and what we see is a decrease of young people using it compared to other countries. Also, most will try it once and leave it.

Demon_Mustang
04-19-2004, 01:42 PM
We should legalize rape, murder, arson, and assault too. That will effectively bring down our index crime to almost 0!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Demon_Mustang
04-19-2004, 01:44 PM
BTW, how is it a myth that people will use it more if it was legal?

You forget that morphine, heroin, and opium (all derived from the same plant) was legal all the way up to the mid 1900's. All types of people were using these substances. The percentage of the population that used these substaces were substantially higher especially if you look at the middle and high economic class. Sales and production dropped when they were regulated, proving that consumption is more when it's legal.

Not to mention if you look at legal substances such as tobacco and alcohol, what do you think is more popular, alcohol or heroin?

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Cowanchicken
04-19-2004, 01:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Demon_Mustang:
BTW, how is it a myth that people will use it more if it was legal?

You forget that morphine, heroin, and opium (all derived from the same plant) was legal all the way up to the mid 1900's. All types of people were using these substances. The percentage of the population that used these substaces were substantially higher especially if you look at the middle and high economic class. Sales and production dropped when they were regulated, proving that consumption is more when it's legal.

Not to mention if you look at legal substances such as tobacco and alcohol, what do you think is more popular, alcohol or heroin?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alchohol is also marketed heavily, there are thousands of commercials out there for all kinds of different brands.

It is illegal to advertise cigarettes on television, and more people drink alchohol than smoke.

The FACT is that heroin is a lucrative crop, and who would you prefer that the money go to, terrorists, criminals, or hard working farmers?

casauboneco
04-19-2004, 02:44 PM
so your saying that if pot and heroin was legal it wouldnt be marketed?

visualise with me (makes woooo wooo wooo visualisation sound) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

tv: we'll continue with our "the View" marathon after these commercial breaks!

Commercial: Big brawny guy "ya know after a hard days work i like to sit back with a cold beer and a big fat doobie...but not just any doobie...real men prefeer the Chong 3000!...made from the finest buds grown in the sunny and beautiful California hills. The chong 3000 is the finest blunt a man can get and at a good price...Ask for chong 3000's at your local retailer. Buy em in singles or in our handy Xtreeeeem (buzword) 10 pack!!

Peace through strength, Respect Though Fear, And Kill Anyone Using "L33t $p34k"

MT_UnclePhil
04-19-2004, 03:06 PM
I think it should be legalized, let all the hippies and dirt bags drug themselves to death. The weak will die off, the strong will live. Of course if someone is taking it and WANTS medical attention like rehab then by all means it should be given to those that want out.

http://markstower.hypermart.net/uncle_banner3.jpg
Kill One Man, Terrorize a Thousand

Demon_Mustang
04-19-2004, 04:49 PM
You know as much as we would like to do that, we can't, it's "immoral" to let nature take it's course. The strong have to HELP the weak. Doing that would only result in billions in dollars going into rehab programs all around the coutnry, and guess where that money is going to come from. Yep, the hard working Americans.

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Gandalf_is_dead
04-19-2004, 08:36 PM
I cannot tell whether or not you are being sarcastic. I hope so.
But if not, I would then ask: Is it better spend 'billions' on imprisoning those people rather that giving them rehab? And if so, why?

Demon_Mustang
04-19-2004, 08:58 PM
Sarcastic? I hope YOU are. You are saying it's worse to imprison the CURRENT people who are using and trafficking this drug than to pay to rehab the INCREASED number of addicts if it was ever legalized?

Have you noticed that these people who claim that legalizing would not increase usage never provide any evidence or proof of this? Do you then notice the patterns between a legal drug and illegal drug as I have already stated? If you're not satisfied with comparisons between two different drugs, then let's look at heroin by itself. I've already told you the pattern of usage back when it was legal compared to when it was made illegal.

So instead of trying to baffle the masses with your silly attempt to make my argument seem callous, why don't you consider that we already have rehab facilities out there. Heroin addiction CANNOT be cured. The people who would become addicted because of your brilliant idea to legalize it will NEVER get out of the addiction. Clear enough for you? It's bad enough with the current population that has fallen victim to such a horrible thing, and your solution is to make it worse??

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Gandalf_is_dead
04-19-2004, 09:09 PM
Demon wrote:For who knows how long on these forums, the likes of MNG, Gandalf, and others have bathed us in the rhetoric that if we hadn't stuck our heads into the middle-east that they wouldn't hate us so much, and they wouldn't have anything against us.


I said that?
I don't think so.
Far too silly for me.
Thanks anyway.

Gandalf_is_dead
04-19-2004, 09:13 PM
Not fair, now you add traficing and claim I was referring to that, which I wasnt. What good is rehab to a drug trafficer I wonder?
Are you just being silly again?

Gandalf_is_dead
04-19-2004, 09:14 PM
Heroin addiction cant be cured? Okay Dr Mengele, whatever you say.
Let's just kill them all, grind em up and feed them to the poor.

Gandalf_is_dead
04-19-2004, 09:16 PM
Baffle the masses? lol.
You are a genuine one-in-a-dozen Demon, I applaud you. Gnite. Thanks for the laugh.

Demon_Mustang
04-19-2004, 09:20 PM
What?? Gandalf, this is so unexpected from you. You did not challenge ANY of what I have said. You have not provided a pinch of evidence or any kind of solid proof that anything I have said is not accurate. While I admit I'm not some expert, so there must be something there that's not accurate, but you sure as hell did not disprove it.

You continue on this silly attempt to just make my argument seem callous or insensitive. You did notice I said use AND traffic this, and you also notice "imprison the CURRENT people who are using and trafficking this drug" that I was talking about imprisonment, NOT rehab. So how silly of YOU to have made such a simple mistake.

Also, if anything, my inclusion of traffickers as well as the simple addict, should only AIDE your argument, that's assuming you had any kind of argument in the first place, since it's more people to imprison, more people to pay for while it's still illegal.

But why don't you actually try to address what I have said, how is what I said wrong, the number of people currently in rehab will only increase. So not only would we need to pay for the ones we already have, but we would have to pay for more, and more people will suffer, which is even more important than the money issue.

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Demon_Mustang
04-19-2004, 09:28 PM
Nice act there Gandalf, but the only fool you're fooling is yourself. I think it's blatently clear who here has not presented a single piece of actual evidence. All you've done so far is tried to distract from the actual argument with silly remarks.

Very unlike you Gandalf, other times you actually seem half way intelligent...

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

buccaneer
04-19-2004, 10:52 PM
Okay Demon. I will address a bit of your stupidity. Although I shouldn't because I have no hope that this resonating rubberband that you use for a brain can actually process anything that resembles reason. But here we go anyway, just for a laugh.

Anyway. I can present you solid evidence that drug use of legalized drugs in the Netherlands is decreasing. And it is decreasing dramatically. We could studiy this because, as you may know, soft drugs are legal in the Netherlands.

Check this link (http://abcnews.go.com/onair/2020/stossel_drugs_020730.html)to a - with out a doubt- liberal piece of garbage. Read it carefully and see if you can make some sense out of it.

Bottom line. Legalizing drugs has many advantages. However,the problem will not go away. You will still have people who will make their own life and those of others a living hell because of those substances. Just like alcohol does, or any other addiction. But legalizing drugs will enable you to manage the problem. Please explain to me what is wrong with that?

MT_UnclePhil
04-19-2004, 11:08 PM
yes my reply was supposed to be sarcastic, ill use smileys next time.

http://markstower.hypermart.net/uncle_banner3.jpg
Kill One Man, Terrorize a Thousand

Hornet57
04-20-2004, 04:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Demon_Mustang:

Not to mention even if it is legal, it can still only be grown in certain conditions, and USA does not handle it. So either way we would be importing it from Afghanistan and they will be getting the profits anyhow...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't you just hear it now Demon?

"Let's face it The reason the US is going to war is because of their Weed"

http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Hornet24811111/SIG2.jpg

Hornet57
04-20-2004, 04:35 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by buccaneer:
Except for the fact that the profits will be on par with any other agricultural produce.

"some weed with your salad sir"?

Legalizing drugs would effectively end the "war on drugs" , freeing money that than can be used to fund the "war on terrorism

What war on terrorism? Eveyone will be to mellow to fight......but legalize crack and then we can have a real mean army to handle terrorists. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Hornet24811111/SIG2.jpg

Hornet57
04-20-2004, 04:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buccaneer:

Anyway. I can present you solid evidence that drug use of legalized drugs in the Netherlands is decreasing. And it is decreasing dramatically. We could studiy this because, as you may know, soft drugs are legal in the Netherlands.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure who ever wrote the article wasn't smoking something?
After all isnt it true that when you smoke weed you just think you have good ideas, but in reality they are just plain stupid?

Gandalf_is_Dead wrote:

Heroin addiction cant be cured? Okay Dr Mengele, whatever you say.
Let's just kill them all, grind em up and feed them to the poor.

Can you actually do that? maybe you got something there Gandalf http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Hornet24811111/SIG2.jpg

Gandalf_is_dead
04-20-2004, 02:07 PM
Okey doke then:

First, yes I am saying it is worse to imprison drug addicts than it is to offer rehab.
You appear to be saying it is better to imprison them than offer rehab. I disagree.
Imprisonment is far more expensive than rehab.

As to providing evidence to counter your comments, am I to understand then that when you simply say something it is to be interpreted by forum readers as bonafide literal uncontestable incontravertible factual evidence, not requiring substantiation? Where are your links? Your references? Why should I spend any effort whatever to systematically footnote a rebuttal to your 'speculations'?
If your comments seem callous to a reader, that's not my problem, and it was not my intention to establish that. Since you seem so knowledgeable on the subject I assumed you were aware that it has been the US governments general policy to imprison drug offenders, whether they be trafficers, mules, dealers or users/abusers. And this policy has been dutifully followed at the state level for decades. It is only relatively recently that some states are experimenting with offering intervention programs/rehab alternatives to mandatory incarceration, albeit usually to first time offenders only. And some states are going so far as to attempt to redress what they (I am of course speaking generally here) consider unfair drug laws. Hence, the move in some areas of the coutry to recommend rehab over prison for non-violent offenders. Or even to rewrite thr drug laws. A few states have even been pushing for marijuana law reformation similar to that being considered by England and Canada.
In many states it is better to be sentenced for a violent crime that to be cought with an ounce of pot. Drug laws keeping getting tougher and tougher, sentences keep getting longer and longer, mandatory sentencing has turned the justice system into a rubber stamp formality for feeding America's massive prison system. And yet the number of people committing drug-related offences continues to rise. It seems clear to me that existing policy is not working.
Legalization of scheduled drugs has not been attempted in the US yet, but a quick look at alcohol prohibition should be somewhat illustrative. In short, when made illegal, people wanted their booze anyway, it went 'underground', all efforts my law enforcement to stem the tide were ultimately fruitless, and organized crime blossomed in a way it never could have under legalized drinking. When prohibition was repealed organized crime had to look elsewhere for exhorbitant revenues. And so they moved into the drug trade and have never looked back.
And alcohol becomes a great American industry for all to enjoy, legally. Yet there are still laws and regulaitions to control distribution, consuption etc. And if you break those laws there will be consequences. A DUI is no laughing matter.
The war on drugs is a tremendous tragedy all around, and it aint getting any better for anyone.
And legalizing drugs is not MY idea, but thanks for the accolade.
I would like you to prove that heroin addiction is incurable. That you say "clear enough for you" like I'm having trouble comprehending your brilliance means nothing, certainly cannot be construed as factual or even generally accurate.
Please also explain how drug legalization would make matters worse for the addict (or for society for that matter)? Is it better for them to be thrown in prison than given treatment? Is treatment really more expensive than prison? Please provide evidence for this.
You said: Have you noticed that these people who claim that legalizing would not increase usage never provide any evidence or proof of this?
Yet you provide no proof to back up your claim. If you can remedy this, by all means, do so.

Finally, please excuse my not rising to your 'challenge' last nite but I was pleasantly buzzed on a nice Shiraz enjoyed with a perfectly cooked prime rib hot of the spit a farewell dinner for my aunt who has been here visiting from Oz for the last month, quite a feast and was feeling too content and melancholy to get mired in your debate at that moment, so I sat out by the pool and played guitar under the stars til I had to retire for the evening.
But today, back to the world and workhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MDS_Geist
04-20-2004, 03:18 PM
Gandalf, It is also my understanding that heroin addiction is generally considered to be incurable. My ex-girlfriend was a doctor in a methadone clinic, and one time explained to me that heroin clinics "cure" addicts by getting them onto methadone rather than heroin. However, that is generally considered to be "curing the heroin addiction" rather than forming a new addiction despite the fact that people are generally considered to be addicted to methadone.

The Right to command is bought with Duty, the Privilege of rank is Service.

Demon_Mustang
04-20-2004, 03:53 PM
Gandalf wrote:
"First, yes I am saying it is worse to imprison drug addicts than it is to offer rehab.
You appear to be saying it is better to imprison them than offer rehab. I disagree.
Imprisonment is far more expensive than rehab."

Uh, actually, you're still not understanding me, we are currently imprisoning them, AND putting them through rehab, because they cannot be cured of heroin addiction. So we are ALREADY putting them through rehab, just like you want, so I don't know what else you want, all you see to be arguing against is the imprisoning part. Meaning you want to still put them through rehab, but allow them to go out and get worse and get others to follow their addiction. My suggestion is to keep it illegal, dealers and addicts get their rehab, but is kept from spreading the "disease" to other people through incapacitation. What exactly is wrong with that?

"Where are your links? Your references?"

My "links??" You think I'm sitting here and looking this up on the internet just to have this conversation? Go read your freakin history you child, I'm stating historical fact that these drugs were legal, and if you're any bit smart you'll already know that just by having knowledge of history. Are you going to argue that American history is wrong and that these drugs were not legal before things such as the Harrison Act? Wait, have you ever even heard of the Harrison Act? You seem a bit ignorant of these things...

"Why should I spend any effort whatever to systematically footnote a rebuttal to your 'speculations'?"

Historical facts are speculations? The only speculation here is that IF these drugs were legalized, that it would not cause an increase in consumption and there would not be any negative affects to our drug problem. And who exactly was it that made this speculation? Oh right, that was YOU, not me, I have stated historical fact that anyone with any knowledge of our history would know. Go open up an encyclopedia sometime. Look up American drug problems after the Civil War.

"If your comments seem callous to a reader, that's not my problem, and it was not my intention to establish that."

My statements don't seem callous, you're trying to make that effect by claiming that I am saying that we shouldn't have rehabilitation for addicts. I've never said such a thing, we ALREADY HAVE rehabilitation clinics for addicts, and I want to maintain the status quo, so you do the math, do I want rehab clinics? Do I not want rehab clinics? Hm, this is a tough one...

"Since you seem so knowledgeable on the subject I assumed you were aware that it has been the US governments general policy to imprison drug offenders, whether they be trafficers, mules, dealers or users/abusers."

Well duh, that's the law, it's called forced rehabilitation, incapacitation, deterrence, whatever theory you wish to follow, but no matter which, it serves a purpose.

Oh, BTW, if you're so knowledgable, you should also know that cases are brought on dealers and addicts only with the hopes that they could be "flipped" and will be a government informant to lead them to the source of the drugs. If they disagree, BAM, prison, too bad, they had a choice.

"It is only relatively recently that some states are experimenting with offering intervention programs/rehab alternatives to mandatory incarceration, albeit usually to first time offenders only."

That's funny because a heroin addict, if stuck in prison without heroin or rehab, he/she will die. They are required to put them through rehabilitation if they require it. All medical needs are satisfied by the prison. So sorry, you're wrong.

"And some states are going so far as to attempt to redress what they (I am of course speaking generally here) consider unfair drug laws."

Meaning the issue on why crack cocaine carry a stiffer sentence than powder cocaine. Some speculate it's a racial issue since more minorities use crack, some speculate that it's because of the fact that crack cocaine takes effect faster and is also more addictive. Either way, it IS quite unfair since it is the same drug, but I don't think racial intentions were the primary intention. Maybe for some cases though...

"In many states it is better to be sentenced for a violent crime that to be cought with an ounce of pot."

It is called the "war on drugs" and these mandatory sentences are meant to deter people from dealing and buying drugs. Don't think it's quite working, but at the same time, they shouldn't be legalized.

"Drug laws keeping getting tougher and tougher, sentences keep getting longer and longer, mandatory sentencing has turned the justice system into a rubber stamp formality for feeding America's massive prison system."

So your solution is to get rid of the laws all together and not punish them at all. That will send the right message...

"It seems clear to me that existing policy is not working."

I agree, but I won't fall for the "perfect solution" by concluding to not do anything at all.

"Legalization of scheduled drugs has not been attempted in the US yet, but a quick look at alcohol prohibition should be somewhat illustrative."

Very different situation, alcohol is not anything close to heroin. But heroin is just like heroin, that's because they are the same, and if you want a BETTER comparison, compare it to itself, since heroin was legal before, why don't you simply compare it from legal to illegal. I don't know why you refuse to do so, going as far as bringing other substances into the mixture, when heroin itself, the topic of this, has gone through all of those stages.

"And alcohol becomes a great American industry for all to enjoy, legally. Yet there are still laws and regulaitions to control distribution, consuption etc. And if you break those laws there will be consequences. A DUI is no laughing matter."

Oh it isn't, and driving under the influence IS illegal. Also, the effects of drinking alcohol cannot compare to heroin abuse. Also heroin addiction is incurable, much more serious than alcohol.

"The war on drugs is a tremendous tragedy all around, and it aint getting any better for anyone.
And legalizing drugs is not MY idea, but thanks for the accolade."

Oh it isn't, I've heard about legalizing marijuana before, and although I also disagree with that, some of the arguments are semi-'non-stupid' but legalizing heroin is fairly new to me...

"I would like you to prove that heroin addiction is incurable. That you say "clear enough for you" like I'm having trouble comprehending your brilliance means nothing, certainly cannot be construed as factual or even generally accurate."

Alright, drinking alcohol will eventually get you drunk, do you need me to provide proof for that statement too?

"Please also explain how drug legalization would make matters worse for the addict (or for society for that matter)? Is it better for them to be thrown in prison than given treatment?"

There you go again, I don't think you will distract anyone intelligent though. I never said not to give them rehabilitation. There are ALREADY REHAB CLINICS. I'm getting tired of saying this...

Anyway, it will increase consumption, and heroin addiction, being noncurable, will trap more and more people in these rehab programs if it was made legal. I don't see how that's a good thing.

"Is treatment really more expensive than prison? Please provide evidence for this."

Again... ugh, nevermind.

"You said: Have you noticed that these people who claim that legalizing would not increase usage never provide any evidence or proof of this?
Yet you provide no proof to back up your claim. If you can remedy this, by all means, do so."

Um... why don't you try quoting a few sentences before that. You know, where I stated the consumption change in that transition between heroin being legal and it being illegal. You remember now? Or are you still on your distraction technique of trying to claim that I am against there having rehabilitation clinics?

"Finally, please excuse my not rising to your 'challenge' last nite but I was pleasantly buzzed on a nice Shiraz enjoyed with a perfectly cooked prime rib hot of the spit"

You sure you were only buzzed? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Sounds good. The food I mean.

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Demon_Mustang
04-20-2004, 04:02 PM
Buc graced us with:
"Anyway. I can present you solid evidence that drug use of legalized drugs in the Netherlands is decreasing. And it is decreasing dramatically. We could studiy this because, as you may know, soft drugs are legal in the Netherlands."

Alright buc, I think I might condescend myself to the level of addressing what have already been addressed before. Since you don't seem to have a capacity to actually read and comprehend... lol, sorry, just kidding. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Comparing different rates between countries is not reliable, kind of like the gun violence issue, comparing the UK with the USA and trying to show a correlation between guns being legal and illegal. When there are other countries with the same type of laws, but also have different crime rates. Every country will vary because of their culture and the people. Just like how Israel and Switzerland have gun laws very similar to ours, meaning it's legal, yet their crime rates are low like the UK's. So the correlation obviously isn't with the laws.

Same situation here, the correlation isn't with the legalization of drugs that makes the difference between countries. What might work in the Netherlands would not work the same way here.

Buc, if you want a good comparison, and I've already said this, let's use the USA. And perfect drug for the comparison? Let's use the same drug we are talking about: heroin.

Heroin was legal in the USA for quite some time. And party goers and middle class people everywhere used heroin casually to get the high. Abuse was getting bad, addiction was getting bad. People were using heroin to get over the addiction of morphine, and morphine was used to get over the addiction of opium, etc. And all of these drugs were legal. Then heroin was made illegal. Now importing heroin became a problem, and people stopped seeing it as a good middle-class party drug, production decreased, trade decreased, and consumption decreased.

How about that for a before and after comparison? I used the same country and the same drug. I think that is quite a tad more accurate than comparing a foreign country and probably different drugs...

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

buccaneer
04-20-2004, 11:29 PM
First, when I said "I can provide solid evidence" it doesn't automatically mean I already did in that same post. The link I provided was to give you a little insight about the way we here in the Netherlands are treating the problem and I believe that the author of that article was a little brief and rough around the edges but fairly accurate when it comes to the situation here in Holland.

I have some studies, in dutch, that were issued by the government to see if the druglaws we have here actually work. They used figures from both before and after the legalistion and included a number of other Eurpean countries as well.

The point is that there is a decrease in drug use when it comes to those drugs that were previously illegal in the Netherlands. In that same time frame, drug use in other European countries who still criminalize drug use rose, sometimes even with more than 20 percent.

This shows that legalising drugs doesn't automatically mean that you should expect to see an increase in the use of those drugs.

I will see if I can find an english version of that report. Haven't been succesful sofar.

Also, it is very possible to beat a heroin addiction. My sister used to manage a rehab clinic (actually 2 different ones)and many people got cured, found jobs and are proud of it. One of them became her best friend and is clean now for 11 years.

TheMotec
04-21-2004, 07:01 AM
I think they hate us because we are win, and all there swords/base are belong to us. They are lose. We do not sell are swords to them.

Gandalf_is_dead
04-21-2004, 08:06 AM
You know what Demon, I got to "you child" and refuse to read your rude, idiotic drivel any longer. You are completely incapable of anything resembling a polite or interesting conversation, and are beneath my contempt as a thinking human being at this point. I am more than happy to let you wallow in your own ignorance and conceit as you obviously never stop to think about anything posted to you, you just find a way to twist it about and make snide, infantile comments.
I am through with your juvenille behaviour.
My above post was a serious and reasonable attempt to respond to your post, I was not fishing to be ridiculed and bombasted. If this is how you intend to conduct yourself then you are nothing but a whiney little ***** incapable of engendering respect or due consideration. You exexmplify the worst traits Ive seen yet on a forum, coming across like some '1337 do0D' who thrives on being the phorum phallus. And you succeed.
But in reality you remind me of a "cliff clavin/black night from monty python holy grail" lovechild. If your wrong it doesnt matter cause noboody can tell you anythihng, of yourr losing it doesnt matter because you cannot tell on your own.
Indeed, you are the paragon of bliss.
L8r Demon, do yourself a favor and spend the rest of your life trying not to be the biggest ******* on the planet.
But Im done with you. Back to the kiddie pool with you.

Hornet57
04-21-2004, 09:02 AM
If legalizing drugs is a good idea why not legalize the ownership of guns? Many people dont seem to think that legalizing drugs will mean more people would use them, then why not legalize guns? Just because you can buy them freely dont mean you are going to use them as freely, no?

Gandalf,

You are also guilty many times of the same thing you are accusing Demon of. Maybe you have a better way of being rude but rude you are sometimes. This is a forum where everyone has their own opinions. Some give them in a matter which you don't approve as you give your opinion in a matter that some others dont approve. It seems hypocritical to me that you would throw someone in the same "kiddie pool" you play in.

http://www.forumsigs.com/users/Hornet24811111/SIG2.jpg

[This message was edited by Hornet57 on Wed April 21 2004 at 08:10 AM.]

[This message was edited by Hornet57 on Wed April 21 2004 at 08:11 AM.]

Demon_Mustang
04-21-2004, 10:21 PM
Buc, I completely understand what you're talking about. But I'm talking about the United States of America, our cultures are SO different, we react to things a lot differently than they do in Europe, and I don't doubt that it worked for the Netherlands, but it wouldn't be the same here, so those correlations are not really relevant for what we are talking about.

I have mentioned and you can find proof that it could very well be the exact opposite here in the States, and history supports what I have said.

I just didn't appreciate your ridicule in your first post, only so you can follow up on that ridicule with irrelevant data, that would explain my tone with you, but mainly I don't mind you Buc, and I've said it in many other threads, that you have normally been fairly decent and it's never a "bad" experience to have a discussion or debate with you. I'm just pointing out that what you have mentioned may not really apply here in the States, and shouldn't be used as a model for what we should do. Same thing as if something works for us, and we criticize your country for not doing it the same way, that would be wrong.


And for Gandalf, I don't have anything more for you. I've presented my argument enough for anyone to understand. You can accuse me of anything, but anyone with intelligence could read back on their own and see that my replies have content, while yours are always short silly remarks that could be considered simple personal attacks. So I don't need to defend myself here, it's all here in black and white.

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)

Demon_Mustang
04-21-2004, 10:23 PM
Hornet, thanks, but there's no need to stand up for me this time. I am not even going to defend myself since it's pretty clear from the line of dialogue here who is guilty of what. Anyone can read these replies themselves and see for themselves. It seems even in that last remark from Gandalf, it just seems like he's mad that he still has nothing credible to say, and is taking it quite bitterly...

______________________________________________
"By sacrificing human life to serve their radical visions, by abandoning every value except the will to power, they follow in the path of fascism, Nazism, and totalitarianism, and they will follow that path all the way to where it ends: in history's unmarked grave of discarded lies." - George W. Bush (09-20-2001)