Nival! Fabrice! Give us an USEFULL necro-dragon!

[SandroTheMaster]

[Zamolxis108]

Vote: morale penalty. And I'm still generous.

If you want any of the other options, than the special building that doubles their basic weekly growth has to go. No other alignment has that. So if you want to make the necro dragon as strong as the other lvl.7 creatures, that also its weekly growth should be the same.

[dani_softpedia]

I'd love to see Dragons being able to cast spells, but that would be a rather drastic change so I voted with the morale thingie. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[SandroTheMaster]

Originally posted by Zamolxis108:
Vote: morale penalty. And I'm still generous.

If you want any of the other options, than the special building that doubles their basic weekly growth has to go. No other alignment has that. So if you want to make the necro dragon as strong as the other lvl.7 creatures, that also its weekly growth should be the same.

If any of those were in that building wouldn't be necessary, how it is, the least it could be done is to increase how much the building increase, but we don't want more dragons, we want USEFUL dragons.

[Quercia1990]

NOT ANYTHING AT ALL.

What are you thinking man? Dragons are already strong enough. Fast, deadly and probably immune to spells too. (If I could download the damn thing)

-Q

[Justice]

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif Undead dragons. And usually it's best to test a bit before saying youre oppinion.

voted morale.

[dani_softpedia]

Were it for me I'd make Dragons much stronger but for them to only come one each week. I would like to really feel they are Dragons, not some pathetic winged lizards.

[Rasputin2000]

Bone dragons aren't all that, but spectral dragon's incorporeal ability is hella nice.

[SandroTheMaster]

Originally posted by Rasputin2000:
Bone dragons aren't all that, but spectral dragon's incorporeal ability is hella nice.

If weren't for the fact it DOESN'T work and the fact it may be taken out of the final version.

[Campaigner_1st]

More penalty is easy and balanced.

And their double growth must stay since Undead are supposed to be in huge numbers but a little than the average soldier.

[SandroTheMaster]

Problem is that their weak stats are supposed to be balanced by large number AND special abilities, and the necro dragons dont have ANY.

And trample isn't that umbalanced, the sylvan have a total of 3 creatures with tile patern attack, the blade dancers, the pixies/sprites and their dragons. And tis is actually also something dificult to deal with, like the mages tile-by-tile attack.

[chaosgorgon]

lol, hey guys, sure that we arent talking about H3?????

[SandroTheMaster]

Originally posted by chaosgorgon:
lol, hey guys, sure that we arent talking about H3?????

That's close to the problem, but at least in H3 the ghost dragons HAD a special ability.

[Val-Gaav]

Voted morale penalty ...

Seriously the special buliding is enough (or even too much) as for necro...

[SandroTheMaster]

Did you play with or against necro, even with 50% more dragons these dragons barely do anything, half dies to the first black dragons attack, retaliation barely kills the black dragons, and so on. THE NECRO-DRAGON DMG IS 70% LESS THAN OF THE OTHER TIER 7! They are weaker than some lvl 6 for gods sake, and lvl 6 have 4 week growth (with full castle), so, why is the gravestone so much?

[arcanion]

I agree but honestly disagree.

The necro dragons are indeed weaker then the other dragons. dont forget that the dragons cost much less and so does their building.
also you can buy that building that increases their weakly growth by 1.

so it end up that when the enemy hero is able to make a black dragon you have 10 bone dragons or 5 spectral.

in my opinion that is the main strangth of those dragons.

[Val-Gaav]

@arcanion.
Yes that is what I meant...


@Sandrothemaster

And how costly is the black dragon building and the upgrade? now compare it with black dragons...

Still the dragon is better then the one that was in h3 necro...

also again necromancy gives unfair advantage to necro players.

[chavv]

right now skeleton archers are more than enough for Necro, why make them "the ultimate cheat race" ?

[Quercia1990]

Undead dragons. And usually it's best to test a bit before saying youre oppinion.

Well as if I can -_- Undead Dragons are good enough being strong in between Dragons and other town's lvl 6es.

They are old and not very strong like a real Dragon would be.

I think the Undead Dragon is good as it was in H3.

Reading about that Skeleton Archer being too strong I think this is a good thing; otherwise Undead can become too strong.

-Q

[cqr-]

I prefer dragons with much higher stats than other L7 cratures, but with lower weekly growth. (just to feel their dragonic power http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

[Paladin_Musashi]

Compare the ghost dragons to the sylvan's (CHEAP) gold dragon then... Sylvans can EASILY get their basic dragon building in at the same week or even EARLIER week than the necros can.

And even with the dragon tombstone the bone/ghost dragons will NEVER be able to stand against any other level 7 that had their building put in on the same week. Period.

[demonxmaster]

i voted TRAMPLE! TRAMPLE! TRAMPLE!
TRAMPLE is the best
i agree with Paladin_Musashi the ghost dragon is so weak http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

[chaosgorgon]

dont know, guess that we have a problem in H3, with sucker dragons and necromancy overpowered

also with that super castle

ohhh, now i remember this isnt h3 is h5, lol

[FoxHero]

Hmmm, raise dead and dragons... and no rest for the wicked. No, I think Necro dragons are pretty fine http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[phoenixzs]

I would prefer a more solid bone dragon.Maybe the old fear ability which would let the bone/shadow dragons not to take so much looses in battles could be cool.In that way they would be still open to ranged fire but would be even in melle combat which the 7th levels usually fight.
Also incorporality should be fixed.
Decreasing the enemy morale is good but not suitable for a last level,ıt should have a more active ability for ıt to stand fights
Personally ı am not infavor of spell casting,ıt would be something like feary dragons but if you look at the overall balance you can see that the castle needs a good melle fighter than a spellcaster.

[Paladin_Musashi]

FoxHero:

Raise dead and pathetic necro dragons lose to ressurect and gold dragons. Even if you had twice as many you would lose.

[Paladin_Musashi]

Also the "cheap" necro dragon building requires fort, citadel, and castle. It doesn't show that on the cityplan, but it does require them. So please add 10-15k onto the price you are thinking they cost.

[Val-Gaav]

Originally posted by Paladin_Musashi:
Also the "cheap" necro dragon building requires fort, citadel, and castle.
Fort citadel and castle are essential buildings that double your creature growth ... Before building the dragons anybody will already have them.


Although I admit that Sylvan dragon is cheaper only 10000 gold ... but IMO that's what Sylvan is all about middle power troops , but cheap... THis was also the case with h3 rampart

[Paladin_Musashi]

Not always... Often people will not even buy the fort until they have all the basic creature buildings in. Especially if it would delay them enough to make them get their top level dwelling a week later.

[KingAlamar]

Originally posted by chavv:
right now skeleton archers are more than enough for Necro, why make them "the ultimate cheat race" ?

With all the bugs and other things they still need spells and the exact right skills to beat other armies.

As for the dragons I'd prefer some form of "morale negating" ability. Even if the enemy has +10 Morale as long as Shadow Dragons are on the field an enemy is treated as if they have 0 Morale.

[SandroTheMaster]

The "dracolich" idea was because of the lack of an useful spellcaster in the necros. Everyone have a caster that is useful because of it's spells, but the demiliches (btw, that "demi" is for diabolical, daemonic, not "half") have some spells that you simply will never cast because it is much more useful to use their death fog. (plague does a ridiculously low dmg by turn, and in the end the sum is not higher than the druid ice bolt) And because the "dracolich" idea fits better for them. It was never meant to remember the incredibly annoying feary dragons.

Finally, do I have to remember that his dmg is much less than other tier 7? And that even with 50% more dragons they still do less dmg? Some lvl 6 do more. The trample ability to give them the chance of dealing indirect dmg would be fair.

Still, the more balanced is the morale panalty, thew other would require MUCH more time for testing.

Remember that the necromancy skill is bugged and that this "overpower" bonus (that still dies to the first battle dive) will be certainly out of the final version.

Even being cheap ALL units in the necropolis are cheap, WHY DO WE NEED SO MUCH MONEY? What you can do with extra money? Nothing. It is better a strong and expensive lvl 7 that actually worries your oponent than a crappy and cheap lvl 7 that makes even the imps laugh. ( Imps: http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif )

[KingAlamar]

Going for morale "negation" instead of a morale penalty would actually make things easier to balance.

If [in effect] nobody is able to use Morale against the Necros then you don't have to worry as much about buffing the Necro's army to counter the effects of enemy morale.

In addition is you balance Necro against the high leadership of Haven then lower leadership factions like Academy and Dungeon will be at a huge disadvantage against Necros.

The best of the proposals would involve a negation of Morale IMHO.

[SandroTheMaster]

Originally posted by KingAlamar:
Going for morale "negation" instead of a morale penalty would actually make things easier to balance.

If [in effect] nobody is able to use Morale against the Necros then you don't have to worry as much about buffing the Necro's army to counter the effects of enemy morale.

In addition is you balance Necro against the high leadership of Haven then lower leadership factions like Academy and Dungeon will be at a huge disadvantage against Necros.

The best of the proposals would involve a negation of Morale IMHO.

Yes, but that would be useful only against Haven... I know, what if the panalty is just if the enemy have positive morale, BUT if a creature is attacked by the dragons it have a penalty in morale for a few turns? (like the "sorrow" spell).

[Val-Gaav]

Originally posted by SandroTheMaster:
Even being cheap ALL units in the necropolis are cheap, WHY DO WE NEED SO MUCH MONEY? What you can do with extra money? Nothing.
Interesting. In h3 human vs human games are finshed in about 2-3 first weeks. I do not expect h5 to be diffrent in this . Now 3 first weeks is the time when money do metter and that's one of the reasons I would rather play necro or sylvan then expensive dungeon.


Nothing. It is better a strong and expensive lvl 7 that actually worries your oponent than a crappy and cheap lvl 7 that makes even the imps laugh.
What ?
3 necro dragons have 450 hp ... while 2 sylvan dragons have only 400hp... Add to this also the damage x3 .. while attack and defense are the same.

Now how was it in h3 ? 2 necro dragons had 400hp while 2 black dragons had 600hp ... See the diffrence?

Once again I say that those dragons are not that bad when U look that they have bigger grow. .

............
Clearly u may think : "Oh a necro-anti fan". No!. I want to play with necro, now I cannot do this becouse it's banned in h3. And I do fear that with those skeletons it may happen again , and I do not want any of h5 castles to be banned...

[MMihnea]

Realy??? I would call this a rush . Or you are talking about very, very small maps. I usualy play XL with underground and a respectable AI level with my friends and it takes mounths before the final battle.
Maybe you are better...
MAybe you needed an argument badly...

[Val-Gaav]

Originally posted by MMihnea:
Realy??? I would call this a rush . Or you are talking about very, very small maps.
I'm talking about MP maps (M and L size) mostly without underground... Visit http://www.toheroes.com/ for some of those maps.
Although I admit that there are some maps there that take over one month time . Still the majority of them I have finished in 3 weeks to 4 weeks . And I'm not a very good player as I had seen that skilled player are about week faster in ending the game.
So as I said it takes them 2-3 weeks, while for me it's 3-4 weeks...


Even if there is AI on those maps usually nobody fights it and just rush to kill another human player.

[SterbLich]

I go for a morale penalty. and a revision of the incorporability ability... beeing hit only half the time is an ability which depends too much on luck! maybe just half damage from physikal attacks would be fine.

[KingAlamar]

Originally posted by SandroTheMaster:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KingAlamar:
Going for morale "negation" instead of a morale penalty would actually make things easier to balance.

If [in effect] nobody is able to use Morale against the Necros then you don't have to worry as much about buffing the Necro's army to counter the effects of enemy morale.

In addition is you balance Necro against the high leadership of Haven then lower leadership factions like Academy and Dungeon will be at a huge disadvantage against Necros.

The best of the proposals would involve a negation of Morale IMHO.

Yes, but that would be useful only against Haven... I know, what if the panalty is just if the enemy have positive morale, BUT if a creature is attacked by the dragons it have a penalty in morale for a few turns? (like the "sorrow" spell). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This suggestion would be effective against all factions. Just because other factions may not get the leadership skill offerered as much doesn't mean they may not have +4 or +5 morale before a fight. An army of 1 alignment, A hero of the same alignment, +2 from artifacts, +1 from a map fountain == 5 Morale!! This is without the leadership skill!!

Because this effect is equally effective no matter what the enemy's morale state is it does not put "low leadership" factions at a huge disadvantage. This is the good point of an ability like this.

If the Necro doesn't have a way to negate morale then ALL of the necro troops will have to be either 50% tougher [because enemy will have so many more morale breaks] OR 50% more numerous across all levels.

[SandroTheMaster]

Yeah, but that would make just everyone have a null morale against necros, making battles less interesting. Now, if the bone gives lets, say, -2 to the bonus, and spectral -3 or -4, this to ALL, and the dragon has this "sorrow" ability, then the dragons would make the enemy worried, since whoever the dragons attack, this creaturess will have less actions.

Val-Gaav, you must remember that the necromancy skill will probably be much diferent or much nerfed in the final version, so the skelleton archers aren't so worrying, still, they can only be useful if you pick frenzy and chilling steel, a hard get. Yet still, all the skeletons die very easily to the griffin battle dive. And dispite your stats, even 3 spectral dragons with 450 hits do 75-105 dmg, as 2 emerald does 66-114 AND breath AND spell imunity, as well as the fact they move much earlier (maybe twice) and can reach enemy lines in turn 1. That because the sylvan dragons are the second weakest (necro dragons being the weakest)

[Quercia1990]

Compare the ghost dragons to the sylvan's (CHEAP) gold dragon then... Sylvans can EASILY get their basic dragon building in at the same week or even EARLIER week than the necros can.

And even with the dragon tombstone the bone/ghost dragons will NEVER be able to stand against any other level 7 that had their building put in on the same week. Period.

Man stp whining. You sound like those 13 year old Warhammer players.

Pff who cares about the Bone Dragon being able to be recruited in the same week as Gold Dragons and what not. It's not the game which is wrong and too hard, it is YOUR TINY BRAIN which simply doesn't comprehend the Necromancer tactics.

I might agree adding something to them to increase tactical output, but please no whining about such a stupid thing I just quoted above.

-Q

[SandroTheMaster]

Originally posted by Quercia1990:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Compare the ghost dragons to the sylvan's (CHEAP) gold dragon then... Sylvans can EASILY get their basic dragon building in at the same week or even EARLIER week than the necros can.

And even with the dragon tombstone the bone/ghost dragons will NEVER be able to stand against any other level 7 that had their building put in on the same week. Period.

Man stp whining. You sound like those 13 year old Warhammer players.

Pff who cares about the Bone Dragon being able to be recruited in the same week as Gold Dragons and what not. It's not the game which is wrong and too hard, it is YOUR TINY BRAIN which simply doesn't comprehend the Necromancer tactics.

I might agree adding something to them to increase tactical output, but please no whining about such a stupid thing I just quoted above.

-Q </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The issue here isn't if the necrodragons are weak, but why they don't have special abilities, making of them of just more zombies (aka meat shields)

[Val-Gaav]

Originally posted by SandroTheMaster:
dispite your stats, even 3 spectral dragons with 450 hits do 75-105 dmg, as 2 emerald does 66-114 AND breath AND spell imunity, as well as the fact they move much earlier (maybe twice) and can reach enemy lines in turn 1. That because the sylvan dragons are the second weakest (necro dragons being the weakest)

Well so u see that this damage ir pretty much the same ...
Still this is how it was ment to be both spectral dragons and sylvan dragons are as u said not the strongest bot the cheapest ... Still they have some bonuses. Sylvan one is the fastest 7 level unit while necro one growth is +3 ...

And IMO it's enough and makes the game special. Still incorportal ability shoud work ... not as it is now depending on luck ... but giving constant damge reduction by 30% ... It would be a very good bonus for spectral dragons and a good reason to upgrade.

[chaosgorgon]

ok val-gaal i guess i dont understand,but, it seems that the esmerald dragon have more speed, now a first strike in such low hp bone dragons almost the same Hp combinated) with almost the same damage just make them useless, remember they die more easely so its damage is decreased more fast also in the attcaks and retaliation, and it seems that are 6th level monsters better

that effect is oncreased by the retaliation system

and all that without having any good ability

but we must hear more reports, but i dont know only to leave the low hps in the draks seems again the H3 stuff

[Val-Gaav]

They do not die that easily! combined they have more hp then any 7 level ... defence is near to the other 7 level troops ... hp 150 ? it's also not so low to say that it's a 6 level (most six level has 100hp) so ?
Still titan has not so much more hp then spectral dragons
..........

And it's not like in h3 ... Spectral dragons are more like the conflux pheonixes ... not so strong but have big growth.

[chaosgorgon]

btw, sandro could u take out the "fabrice" name of the topic, i mean, poor guy, lol

[chaosgorgon]

but man the titan is ranged

phoenix were fast, man heroes of might and magic should be renamed heroes of might and speed

anyway not sure, i didnt played the game, but i know how works h game and the first strike is decisive,its seems that bones are still preety suceptible to that

[Val-Gaav]

Originally posted by chaosgorgon:
btw, sandro could u take aot the "fabrice" nace of the topic, i mean, poor guy, lol
Well ... it seems that those kind of topic does not atract MuadDib ...

Well if it however will expect me to make a topic "Nival! Fabrice! Give us a Linux version of HoMMV!" ... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



but man the titan is ranged

So ? that still makes my point valid http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Sylvan cheap not so strong but the fastest
NEcro not strong but increased growth and cheap
Titan - a bit lower HP but is ranged ... and as we now ranged units are quite handy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Every unit has some good aspects ... even the necro dragons :P

[chaosgorgon]

wait the titan also have nice damge,

"increased with growth and cheap", ha, man with the reataliation system that dont work, u will end with a looot debt paying for dead undead draks

if the bones could be useful then at least should be 25% more total equall hp than the total growth enemy hp

anyway we must see more reports if there is an unbalance

[Val-Gaav]

"increased with growth and cheap", ha, man with the reataliation system that dont work, u will end with a looot debt paying for dead undead draks

.............

Well in final battle it will work ... Still maybe you refer that u may lose the dragons earlier on some neutral monster etc ...

Well yes u habve to be more carefull to not lose them but it's not that hard to acomplish if u play a bit and know what u can attack and when ...


anyway we must see more reports if there is an unbalance

IMO if they want to fix the balance they should first fix all the bugs and give the beta to some online turnament community toh, oracle league , wizards and warriors etc ...
In my opinion only those people could make a near ideal balance.

Also it would be good if Nival or ubi looked on some of th e rules that player make while palying homm3
-like no hit&run ... no red rush ... why logistic and necromancy is banned ? .. and so on

Playing this beta I just had a feeling that Nival does not know what was unbalnced in h3.
And how can one reapet the mistakes of the game (h3)that has been tested through several years now http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[chaosgorgon]

dont know, guess that they knew the unbalances, but they keept them, to it make more H3ised http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[SandroTheMaster]

Reports? How about this report:

I completed 3 games with the necros.

In all games the necrodragons didn't survived the main battle, actually, they were my first of my stacks to die, and that ONLY attacking the enemy lvl7

Protection? In the third time I tried all to keep then alive (stoneskin, for instance), but nope, yet, still first stack to die. Dead to the second black dragon breath (only made 1 retaliation, didn't even get to attack, I tried to keep it safe but he placed the black dragons where they can reach my spectral ones).

In ALL battles with players the spectral dragons only got chance to attack once and retaliate once before dying.

Against neutral stacks he was only meat shield for my archers, so the enemy stacks don't reach them (with zombies helping).

Let me make this simplier: My experience with the spectral/bone dragon was, even with more numbers, still can't stand at the enemy tier 7. They were always JUST AS USEFUL as the WORTHLESS zombies.

[chaosgorgon]

hahaha, maybe u are a bad player, lolololol

seriously i also thinks that the equality between 400-450 hps for a 2-3 units is unbalanced to the last specially with the retaliation system and low speed

[SandroTheMaster]

Originally posted by chaosgorgon:
hahaha, maybe u are a bad player, lolololol

seriously i also thinks that the equality between 400-450 hps for a 2-3 units is unbalanced to the last specially with the retaliation system and low speed

I won these battles, when I meant games I finished. I finished (won) 3 games with necros so far and lost one game. Neither time the spectral dragons were more useful than meat shield, AND I basically won mainly because of the skeleton archers, when this get fixed, the necros won't gai ANY battle, since the lack of strength AND special abilities from them (liches being an exception)

[p3dantic]

er... i don't believe anyone's mentioned this yet but shadow dragons can curse enemies with their attacks.

i've thought of a special that they could have, or rather, a modification of a current special. maybe incorporeal could mean that friendly units can occupy the same squares as the ghost dragon and, while inside, they can't be hurt. actually, i only thought of this because with the dragons around my big walker units always seem to be stuck and that frustrates me so.

in an unrelated point, if nival wanted to speed combat up and balance the power between ranged and ground units, then i fail to see how having huge creatures on a small battlefield expedites movement when you often have to get big creatures to defend because of a lack of space to move. i've finished off wraiths by flying single gargoyles to restrict their movement while my gremlins shoot them to death.


- fiery phoenix

[astavan]

I voted for the moral penalty because that is what the necromacers were all about in the previous games http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Severe_Gamer]

I like the dragons as they are... though I look forward to seing them fixed. Remember, they are supposed to be incorporeal, making them difficult to damage. Like manes... God, I hate (fighting) manes.

[Paladin_Musashi]

I've been trying to fix the Spectral Dragons and Wraiths but... I can't figure out how to mod passive abilities like that.

[akrav]

hmm I think the issue here is that the shadow dragons even with a incorporeal ability that blocks dmg 50% of the time, will just be meat shields and nothing more(check their dmg output compared to other units).

Im not gonna be spending x amount of resources just for a meatshield, which zombies/manes or other units can do just aswell.

[Paladin_Musashi]

A meatshield with a cursing attack...

I think they would be useful enough with the special abilities... If they make them all work. And if they make curse work the way it's supposed to (Cursed units should always do their minimum damage)

[demonxmaster]

does someone know a way to make nival listen ?

[phoenixzs]

ı think the morale is also abit broken right now,ıt should also be fixed somehow.Personally ı woulnt want my top lele creature sit arund and give bonus,it should be a serious fighting force which the bone dragon right now isnt.
Generally necro troops should give negative morale to the enemy.
What we need is solidity for bone dragons and more damage output.Maybe it can be resistant to melle attacks or the age attack could be brought back.Simply while keeping its realtively weak situation in the game it should be able to compete with last levels(6th and 7th).Maybe an ability which looses importance with increasing enemy number could do it like death stare.As you know deathstare is not important if the gorgon attacks low levels.It could be called rotting.

[SandroTheMaster]

Originally posted by phoenixzs:
ı think the morale is also abit broken right now,ıt should also be fixed somehow.Personally ı woulnt want my top lele creature sit arund and give bonus,it should be a serious fighting force which the bone dragon right now isnt.
Generally necro troops should give negative morale to the enemy.
What we need is solidity for bone dragons and more damage output.Maybe it can be resistant to melle attacks or the age attack could be brought back.Simply while keeping its realtively weak situation in the game it should be able to compete with last levels(6th and 7th).Maybe an ability which looses importance with increasing enemy number could do it like death stare.As you know deathstare is not important if the gorgon attacks low levels.It could be called rotting.

If you had readed all the thread you would have seem that the morale idea should affect only bonus mora, the real strength would be a "sorrow" ability, giving all negative morale to whom the dragon attacks.

[cloud747]

dude, its incorporeal , that means hard to be hit, is that not good enough? 3 incorporeal units and necromancy wut do u want? a 7th creature tough than blackdragon?

[SandroTheMaster]

Originally posted by cloud747:
dude, its incorporeal , that means hard to be hit, is that not good enough? 3 incorporeal units and necromancy wut do u want? a 7th creature tough than blackdragon?

Didn't you get it? Incorporeal CAN be great, IF you're lucky. But it still doesn't makes of the spectral dragon more than a meat shield.

[cloud747]

well, have u played duel? acctrally i use 7th creature only as a meat shield, if some1 try to kill my 7th units first i laugh in behind, cause i will kill all his other units before he kill my 7th units. at least in this beta, 7th creature cant do much dmg on 5th or 6th units ,dont even talk about 7th. its kind of wasting time. always kill the low lvl creature as soon as possible is the way to win ,that wut i feel from duel in h5.

[SandroTheMaster]

Originally posted by cloud747:
well, have u played duel? acctrally i use 7th creature only as a meat shield, if some1 try to kill my 7th units first i laugh in behind, cause i will kill all his other units before he kill my 7th units. at least in this beta, 7th creature cant do much dmg on 5th or 6th units ,dont even talk about 7th. its kind of wasting time. always kill the low lvl creature as soon as possible is the way to win ,that wut i feel from duel in h5.

I hardly believe you laugh when the enemy tries to kill your black dragons or titans. Or even the archangels or devils. The titans is the MAIN unit of Isher, if they're gone, you're dead, the main strategy with him is protecting the titans with the golems and cast haste on titans. The black dragons kills two stacks nearly EVERY time it moves (since they get luck nearly EVERY time they attack), and since you can't cast anything on them to keep it from happening, well, i guess they're more than meat shields. With inferno the main unit is the Balors, well, you must keep your devil at least until one stack of your die (probably the nightmares), so you can raise them as MORE Balors, giving a significant advantage. And finally for archangels, well, most of the stacks recover about HALF its numbers when resurrected by the SEVEN archangels. Not to forget that both devils and archangels kills most of the creatures in the lvl 1-2 stacks, if you worry so much about these, I think this is a threat.

Well, all these don't looks much like meat shields to me.

(BTW, yeah, I played duel, A LOT, my win ratio is 80%, no joke, 80%. I played with all factions, but I like more to play with Isher (the most challenging, since he has less stacks, what means, less actions), with AL of them, my main role is to keep my lvl 7 alive at least for the start, because I will need them, with thenecropolis, well, you won't bother to keep th necrodragons alive since they're mostly useless, a good meat shield, yes, but necropolis already have 3, THREE other meat shields)

[cloud747]

I hardly believe you laugh when the enemy tries to kill your black dragons or titans. Or even the archangels or devils. The titans is the MAIN unit of Isher, if they're gone, you're dead, the main strategy with him is protecting the titans with the golems and cast haste on titans. The black dragons kills two stacks nearly EVERY time it moves (since they get luck nearly EVERY time they attack), and since you can't cast anything on them to keep it from happening, well, i guess they're more than meat shields. With inferno the main unit is the Balors, well, you must keep your devil at least until one stack of your die (probably the nightmares), so you can raise them as MORE Balors, giving a significant advantage. And finally for archangels, well, most of the stacks recover about HALF its numbers when resurrected by the SEVEN archangels. Not to forget that both devils and archangels kills most of the creatures in the lvl 1-2 stacks, if you worry so much about these, I think this is a threat.

Well, all these don't looks much like meat shields to me.

(BTW, yeah, I played duel, A LOT, my win ratio is 80%, no joke, 80%. I played with all factions, but I like more to play with Isher (the most challenging, since he has less stacks, what means, less actions), with AL of them, my main role is to keep my lvl 7 alive at least for the start, because I will need them, with thenecropolis, well, you won't bother to keep th necrodragons alive since they're mostly useless, a good meat shield, yes, but necropolis already have 3, THREE other meat shields)

hehe , i played duel pretty much too.
as u said black dragons, yes , they do much dmg ,but only because of the great number and luck. i think the lucky chain lighting do much more dmg than dragons ,right? and if u dont cast dmg-doing magic ,u have no chance to win ,even u have 20 dragons.
when i played duel, i will block the big units , they wont get close to my important units ,like archers or barlors. i can kill 8 dragons in 1 turn with my marksman.
titan...em...u right , its important for isher ,but just because , only 5 stacks i have , but when u fight with marder or stormlord , u know ,titan wont live more than 3 or 4 rounds, but i still have chance to win , cause opponents focus on my titan ,if oppnent focus on my gremlins at first ,i can say ,i have no chance to win.

as arch devils and angels ,they r quite useless for me, only for ress or gating, after that , dont need them anymore, when ppl trying to kill my devils or angels , they must stand at close range of my archers ,they will die soon, or they use magic,ill use anti-magic or ress and teleport to their close range, marder have magic resistant ,i have nothing to worry about.

and shadow dragon ,i think ill let him charge at first or ghost first he after, they do hard to be hit ,not only if lucky , u can feel it when u play necro in map , anyway , they r cheap if u unlucky. if u save ur shadowdragon at the begining , if i were the opponent ,i will try to kill any other corporeal units, but if u charge with it or at least at 2nd round , opponent has to face the shadow dragon not avoid them. and no other faction can charge with 7th creature at begining or at 2nd round.

it seems u dont like meat shield , but i like them, they r useful, useful for my whole tactic.

maybe u still have sth to say , just play with me in duel, i always create name as" Cloud747" or "Show U unfair"

[SandroTheMaster]

Originally posted by cloud747:
maybe u still have sth to say , just play with me in duel, i always create name as" Cloud747" or "Show U unfair"

Ok then, I accept the duel, but I can't go to it just now. About the other creatures, you ust confirmed they are more than meat shields. Still you only use them once, it is not something you can do right way, so you must keep your lvl 7 alive for a while frst, and that not the role of a meat shield. And what really bothers me is that the necros have FOUR meat shields, and one is not even that "shieldy" ( Ok, I made up this word).

[demonxmaster]

cloud747 the real problem is that we dont need an Incorporeal unit that cant dmg the enemy units

[demonxmaster]

nival notice this topic please!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

[cloud747]

Originally posted by demonxmaster:
cloud747 the real problem is that we dont need an Incorporeal unit that cant dmg the enemy units
the 7th-tier of necro should be weaker than any other factions ,do u agree?
then ,the question is how to make it weak.
2 choice , live longer but dmg low or live shorter but dmg high.
id perfer the fisrt choice to keep my troops for next battle ,there is not only 1 combat wait for us,right?

and i dont think "fear" is a balanced skill, even devil dont has no Retaliation now, that means ,not so good for 7th-tier units has no Retaliation, them will too easy to kill and charge with first strike.

[akrav]

I doubt they even read this forum.

[ACCT_00042659]

I think this hasn't been mentioned yet... how about giving spectral dragons a 20 (or whatever) per cent chance of 'ageing' the attacked enemy stack (halving the number of hit points of all its members). The ghost dragons already had this ability in H3.

[demonxmaster]

i agree the necro dragons need to be a little weaker than others tier 7 units but right now its just too weak and not useful

[KingAlamar]

Originally posted by ACCT_00042659:
I think this hasn't been mentioned yet... how about giving spectral dragons a 20 (or whatever) per cent chance of 'ageing' the attacked enemy stack (halving the number of hit points of all its members). The ghost dragons already had this ability in H3.

I thought of that too. However I don't want to add too many things like "20% chance" when there are skills around like Lucky Strike which may turn that 20% chance to 40% or 50% ....

While we're thinking a little out of the box how about:

Any L1-L6 creatures killed by the Shadow Dragon are automatically converted to undead creatures of the same level. These creatures "perish" at the end of combat. Any Dragons killed by Shadow Dragons themselves become a Shadow Dragon and do NOT perish at the end of combat.

[SandroTheMaster]

Originally posted by KingAlamar:
Any L1-L6 creatures killed by the Shadow Dragon are automatically converted to undead creatures of the same level. These creatures "perish" at the end of combat. Any Dragons killed by Shadow Dragons themselves become a Shadow Dragon and do NOT perish at the end of combat.

Interesting, but that would be too much. 20-30% of the original stack maybe.

[demonxmaster]

Originally posted by KingAlamar:

Any L1-L6 creatures killed by the Shadow Dragon are automatically converted to undead creatures of the same level. These creatures "perish" at the end of combat. Any Dragons killed by Shadow Dragons themselves become a Shadow Dragon and do NOT perish at the end of combat.

sounds nice maybe with this ability and the soul hunter hero you will convert 100% or you will always convert to spectral dragons

[KingAlamar]

Originally posted by SandroTheMaster:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KingAlamar:
Any L1-L6 creatures killed by the Shadow Dragon are automatically converted to undead creatures of the same level. These creatures "perish" at the end of combat. Any Dragons killed by Shadow Dragons themselves become a Shadow Dragon and do NOT perish at the end of combat.

Interesting, but that would be too much. 20-30% of the original stack maybe. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was just an idea http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I don't see how it's too overpowered. If you kill 100 peasants you only get 100 skeletons under your control until the end of that combat and then they disappear -- you don't get them permanently.

As for killing Dragons and raising them permanently then yes that could use same balancing just in case http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[SandroTheMaster]

Originally posted by KingAlamar:

I don't see how it's too overpowered. If you kill 100 peasants you only get 100 skeletons under your control until the end of that combat and then they disappear -- you don't get them permanently.



Yes, 100 skellies ins't much, but about 20 liches can be.

[ooshrooms]

Don't give them any new abilities.
Just make sure their incorporial skill works. It works for the manes/ghosts and I saw it work once for the wraiths, but I never saw the shadow dragons (or whatever they're called) avoid a hit. In fairness I haven't seen them fight much. The bone dragons suck (as well they should), but that incorporial should make the upgraded version on par with the other level 7 creatures.

[demonxmaster]

Originally posted by ooshrooms:
Don't give them any new abilities.
Just make sure their incorporial skill works. It works for the manes/ghosts and I saw it work once for the wraiths, but I never saw the shadow dragons (or whatever they're called) avoid a hit. In fairness I haven't seen them fight much. The bone dragons suck (as well they should), but that incorporial should make the upgraded version on par with the other level 7 creatures.
now that you mention it i too never seen the spetral's dragon Incorporeal ability actualy work http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif probably its a bug

[SandroTheMaster]

Actually, neither the spectral dragon nor the wights/wraith incorporeal works. And thus, Necros don't need a fourth meat shield. Another ability in the place of incorporeal would be much more useful for necros.

[Anima_]

Voted for moral penality.

I havent played much with necro but in my experience i was able to beat a sylvan army that had more than double my army only because of the fact that animate dead only costed me 4 sp... but that wasnt because of my dragons. i stopped animating them, and stuck with bringing back my massive amount of skeles.

long story short, i say make the necro dragons better.

[SandroTheMaster]

Originally posted by Anima_:
Voted for moral penality.

I havent played much with necro but in my experience i was able to beat a sylvan army that had more than double my army only because of the fact that animate dead only costed me 4 sp... but that wasnt because of my dragons. i stopped animating them, and stuck with bringing back my massive amount of skeles.

long story short, i say make the necro dragons better.

Animate dead is actually 6 sp, I think you had an artifact or something. Still, a low cost for a good spell, should be raised to 10.

[Val-Gaav]

Originally posted by SandroTheMaster:
Animate dead is actually 6 sp, I think you had an artifact or something. Still, a low cost for a good spell, should be raised to 10.
And higher level