Wolfpacks

[montecristo1981]

This is something I think is vital for a WW2 Uboat game. Use of the radio (one of the uboats main failings due to HFDF) and co-ordinated attacks.

I really hope they will be included. More so than the walk through boat, new graphics etc.

If you agree please vote and show the dev team how eager we are to have them included.

[Celeon999]

Definitely
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

[JFK09]

No.

'Real' wolfpacks will require some sort of human-like AI (which is impossible to create).

A mere simulation of co-ordinated attacks may easily ruin gameplay.

Some features (which may seem simple to program at first sight) are virtually impossible to be included in computer game.

I'd like to see a chance to meet another u-boat on the patrol though.

[Maverick_U2007]

Having read some of the reports of Wolfpack activity it SHOULD undoubtedly be a feature of the game...........

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PLEASE!!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

Maverick

[d3wil8e1]

I would like to see it done.

[tuddley3]

Me too http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[cnelsoniii]

Yes, Yes, Yes, please include Wolfpacks. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

[badaboom.1]

Wolfpacks would be a very immersive and welcome feature in my opinion

[klcarroll]

I don’t think that the addition of “Wolfpack” type attacks would be all that difficult. The required AI is already pretty much in place, as evidenced by the fact that we have active Luftwaffe units in the game right now. (The tonnage stealing S.O.B.s!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif)

The problem as I see it would be one of “customer disappointment”: …….Because if the in-game Wolfpacks are modeled to be historically accurate, there would be virtually NO Uboat-to-Uboat interaction.

In actual practice, once the position of the convoy was broadcast, and the boats had assembled, …..the individual boats comprising a “Wolfpack” were all essentially conducting individual attacks. There was basically no tactical level communication. (It simply wasn’t practical.)

In gameplay, this would mean that your intended target might suddenly blow up right in front of you, …because some AI controlled boat was “quicker on the trigger” than you were!! (Much the same problem we have with the Luftwaffe units right now!)

Personally, I think that I would tend to view the whole thing as more of an irritation than a feature!


klcarroll

[Pacific_Ace]

I think wolfpacks are one of those things were you had better be careful what you ask for because its great right up to where the juicy Liner you just shot 4 fish at blows up right in front of you. That being said, I always thought Luftwaffe intercepts were really cool but I only ever got to see a few of them.

[owner20071963]

In Multiplay playing online with Teamspeak Is Fun,
I say let the players decide,be it a Clan,Flotilla,Or Whatever they decide,
Most of all We can make make Silent Hunter A Community For All to Enjoy Online,
Wolfpacks,Multiplayer,Its All Fun,
Together We have Fun,
Online,Fun Is No 1,
& Will Sell SH5 Multiplay Worldwide.

[montecristo1981]

Glad to see eveyone is in agreement, don't think I've ever seen such a one sided pole.

I remember in Aces of the Dep, the excitement I felt when i first saw other uboats on the map,(big strain on TC though) and when i saw destroyers tackling them, chasing them in the distance.

I also enjoyed the 'shadow and report the convoys direction' role in silen hunter 2, although there were no other subs, so it made it kind of pointless. Radio contact,and LOTS of it is vital, it was also one of the main weaknessess of the uboats.

I have no problem if they steal my killhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[klcarroll]

Radio contact,and LOTS of it is vital, it was also one of the main weaknessess of the uboats.

I agree: ....As long as that Radio traffic is to and from the B.d.U.; ......Which is the only historically supportable scenario.

Realistic radio traffic to and from the B.d.U. regarding the gathering and co-ordination of a "Convoy Intercept" would increase the "Immersion Factor" immensely!

....But on the other hand, creating a game environment where there is extensive tactical level radio communications between individual boats would create a historically unsupportable "Fantasy World": .....And I would have NO interest in participating in that sort of "Charlie Foxtrot"!!

klcarroll

[montecristo1981]

That never even occurred to me.

Other than possible S.O.S or rendezvous for refuelling with U-Tankers I would not see any need for it?

[klcarroll]

Other than possible S.O.S or rendezvous for refuelling with U-Tankers I would not see any need for it?


I agree! ......Both of the scenarios you mentioned would be historically and technically supportable.


klcarroll

[GrafPaper]

Yes, I most definitely agree and whole-heartedly do concur...WOLFPACKS! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Ironoutlaw34c]

Following the posts on Wolfpacks, I have been checking the B.d.U. KTB to see what I might find in relation to the formation of packs.

There are a few points I would like to mention.

1) When a pack was planned, B.d.U. decided which boats would take part and where they would patrol.

2) All boats would receive a common message outlining which boats were to participate, and each boat's particular patrol zone, often in an extended line abreast, proceding in a particular direction.

3) None of the boats would communicate with any other boat, (except as in 4)), but acknowledge to B.d.U. receipt of the message.

4) When one of the boats sighted a convoy, it would transmit a homing beacon signal for the other boats to converge, until transmitting these signals was a death sentence.

5) It was not uncommon for B.d.U. to allocate a boat that had recently been lost due to B.d.U. not being aware of that loss.

6) Initially, boats making contact with a convoy would advise B.d.U. of that fact, until that also became a death sentence.

7) On occasion, B.d.U. would hold back an attack until it had heard that sufficient boats were on station, or that the convoy may be without its escort for a period, etc., to optimise the attack. As the war progressed, B.d.U. had to rely on the boats to be where they were needed when they were needed as any transmissions from the boats were easily DF'd.

Now the secret, ancient, arcane mysteries of programming are way beyond my understanding, but from what I have picked up in the Forums, the AI might be able to handle these possibilities within SH V. To me, the AI puts the convoy into the sim, it could then create a generic type message to several boats, including the player's. It would need to monitor which boats are at sea, but this info is available.

Hope that makes sense to those who understand programming, or modders who might like to add it in later.

[rik1961]

Originally posted by klcarroll:
I don’t think that the addition of “Wolfpack” type attacks would be all that difficult. The required AI is already pretty much in place, as evidenced by the fact that we have active Luftwaffe units in the game right now. (The tonnage stealing S.O.B.s!!!!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif)

The problem as I see it would be one of “customer disappointment”: …….Because if the in-game Wolfpacks are modeled to be historically accurate, there would be virtually NO Uboat-to-Uboat interaction.

In actual practice, once the position of the convoy was broadcast, and the boats had assembled, …..the individual boats comprising a “Wolfpack” were all essentially conducting individual attacks. There was basically no tactical level communication. (It simply wasn’t practical.)

In gameplay, this would mean that your intended target might suddenly blow up right in front of you, …because some AI controlled boat was “quicker on the trigger” than you were!! (Much the same problem we have with the Luftwaffe units right now!)

Personally, I think that I would tend to view the whole thing as more of an irritation than a feature!


klcarroll

Hi klcaroll,

I do not think so at all. Two or more u-boats attacking the same target happened also in reality and is quit acceptable.

Moreover Wolfpacks are important for the game as they provided a temporary answer in 42/43 for the improved convoy system.

By executing a concerted attack at a predefined moment confusion will increase the chances of survival as there are multiple u-boats attacking a convoy. A convoy will be more vulnerable as the destroyers start searching for example at one side of the convoy so you can sneak in from the other side etc, destroyers are busy attacking one u-boat and have no atttention for the other boats.

The AI of the U-Boat will require functionality to avoid destroyers and maybe to help attacking destroyers who are busy chasing another u-boat.

It will be very immersive to be part of a convoy attack with communication to and from BDU. Think of the tension as you have to hurry to position your boat in time for the upcoming night attack.

[BHCSavage]

What about this for a wolf pack option. Instead of having MP be just quick missions, make a co-op version of a campaign. granted yes i know the time required to do this would be MASSIVE. But for those that are hard core and rarely use time compression would be cool. Or maybe a like a join in progress campaign online. Which would almost require a dedicated server. but say for instance Capt "Billy" has been at sea in his campaign for a week (gametime)and capt "joe" signs on he could start his patrol. both players could recieve the same radio messages about enemy shipping wether it be convoys or task forces. It would allow both players to form a wolf pack and allow other subsimers to join on the hunt as well.


Granted there really was no sub to sub communication once they were submerged but if u hyrdophone operator is good enough he could tell who's fishes where aimed at what targets. Or just set up a small teamspeak server and communicate that way.


Just a thought

[montecristo1981]

Thanks everyone for the feedback and the suggestions. It seems there are alot of different ideas about implementation but the support for AI controlled wolfpacks, convoy reporting and regular radio reports from BdU seems unanimous.

Is there any chance this could be stickied or brought to the developers attention, the poll really speaks for itself.

[andypandy1996]

Must Say great idea buddy please everyone vote to show them how much we all want wolfpacks

[montecristo1981]

Have any of the moderators any suggestions about how we can bring this to the dev's attention?

[shadow_858]

The Devs are aware of the Wolf Pack issue. There is an ongoing discussion regarding Wolf Packs and to what degree to include them.

My guess is that they will include them in a limited way with the stock game, and that there may be a Wolf Pack 'Add On' at a later time.

[montecristo1981]

I really hope you are wrong. I would never buy a game for a feature that 'might' be in an add-on, and I havent seen anything in SH5 that really excites me (a walkthrough of the sub is nice, but how often will you see it, I spend most of the game at the map screen).

There really, really needs to be something new in this instalment of the Silent Hunter series, SH2,3,4 and Uboat missions were all missing that vital something.

If games in the early nineties could have wolfpacks, why cant they now?

[shadow_858]

I think the big difference with SHV will be the visual grammar that is used to tell the story.

I think they are really trying to make the player feel like the Captain in Das Boot, by creating a 'first person' environment that allows him to travel the sub and interact with the crew.

Clearly, they are not going to be able to please everybody, and the name of the game is sales and increasing sales to the casual gamers.

[Fredo_1969]

Wolf-pack was functioning in "Aces of the Deep" subsim ages ago, it can't be to difficult realising again?

Heres my suggestion:

- When you detect a convoy you should send a contact radio report, BdU will/may then order you to shadow the convoy (and not attack). When shadowing you shall send contact reports as often as you dare (the enemy can detect and home in on your radio, especially later in the war). You shall receive some renown for the time you shadow a convoy.
- BdU will send a radio message to you when you are free to attack (BdU then has indication of enough submarines going toward the convoy, or there are none within reach)
- You shall, from time to time, receive contact reports, as radio messages, from other subs detecting and shadowing convoys. Contact reports should also be shown in the map. (not just like convoys appearing out of nowhere on the map)
- When you chose to hunt after a contact report‚ you shall inform BdU, with a radio message. BdU needs that information to control the battle of the Atlantic. (BdU will not be happy finding one of it's uboats attack at some other location, than the one assigned to that u-boat).

[montecristo1981]

Just came back to this, I am really glad to see so many people agree with this, Ive never seen a poll so one sided, EVER.

I hope the dev's spot it.

[leelum]

Hmm I'm on the fence about whether or not this could be implemented. Thing is modern AI has come a long way from where it was at the time of SH3 so I reckon the AI being a pain the rear end wouldnt be a problem.

The problem I fear will be getting it right. With something so ambitous everything from balencing to bugs to where compromises for the sake of gameplay must be made (as they inevitably must be in a game) will be tough things to sort out and thus the development process could be very complicated.

But if they can get it right I'm all for it! Would be great to hunt with other U-boats

[d3wil8e1]

Originally posted by montecristo1981:
Just came back to this, I am really glad to see so many people agree with this, Ive never seen a poll so one sided, EVER.

I hope the dev's spot it.
Most polls I have seen seem to run about even.
This one wasn't even close. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif


D3

[montecristo1981]

Hi guys, can someone sticky this?

I really think everyone should see this poll http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

[Leandros1945]

Originally posted by montecristo1981:
This is something I think is vital for a WW2 Uboat game. Use of the radio (one of the uboats main failings due to HFDF) and co-ordinated attacks.

I really hope they will be included. More so than the walk through boat, new graphics etc.

If you agree please vote and show the dev team how eager we are to have them included.
I was only yesterday thinking of this when I had finished mission 16 - Sept. '41 (last in a long row of careers) - that it was all getting a little boring. Certainly, I could use a lot of time to become an expert in manual targeting, etc. but presently the urge isn't there. When I finally sit down for a quick game (it has been a couple of months now) I don't want to have to think too much..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.....to organsise a wolfpack, however, would be very interesting and could maybe get these old eyes opened....

At least the poll result should be an eye-opener for the dev. team...

[yngvef]

I think a well constructed wolfpack-system could be nice in the game... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

But a bad one is worse than none at all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

My main fear is that the other subs would get in the way. I'm afraid that a AI wolfpack would constantly attack the convoy before you even get close to a firing solution. It would become a race to sink the juiciest targets (kind of reminds me of the irritation of being a wingman in the flight sim IL-2 in the early missions. You never get any kills and people are constantly yelling at you for not doing your job).

What I like about previous Silent Hunter games:
+ My boat
+ My crew
+ My choice
+ Feeling like Lehmann-Willenbrock, stroking my beard and complaining about BdU.


What I would not like in a sub sim:
- Being forced to follow AI people's bizarre tactical decisions (attacking during the day for instance)
- Losing the element of surprise to a silly AI that wants to slug it out on the surface two hours before you even reach the convoy.
- Being put on "shadowing" duty. Being way out of weapons range of a juicy convoy for days while reporting positions so that everyone else can get oak leaves for their knights crosses and all you do is dive, surface, charge batteries, send radio message, dive, surface... repeat until insane.

So, I'm still undecided if wolfpacks would be such a good idea. It sounds good on paper, and Dönitz was a great supporter of the idea, but I'm still not sure if it would work well in the sim.

Just my opinion http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif