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crucislancer
01-15-2008, 10:58 AM
Interesting story:

UFO sighting in Texas (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080114/ap_on_fe_st/odd_ufo_sightings)

crucislancer
01-15-2008, 10:58 AM
Interesting story:

UFO sighting in Texas (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080114/ap_on_fe_st/odd_ufo_sightings)

Billy_BigBoy
01-15-2008, 12:09 PM
"[He] thought about shooting at the object, but didn't want to start an intergalactic war" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

crucislancer
01-15-2008, 12:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Billy_BigBoy:
"[He] thought about shooting at the object, but didn't want to start an intergalactic war" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL! Yeah, that's classic. At least he was thinking ahead! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

K_Freddie
01-15-2008, 12:28 PM
You guys make strong Moonshine in Texas.. maybe it's also a coincidence that a prominent member of Texas....... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

R_Target
01-15-2008, 12:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"You hear about big bass or big buck in the area, but this is a different deal..." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMAO. Gotta love the rural grapevine.

Swivet
01-15-2008, 01:41 PM
Imagine if he did shoot at it and triggered a intergalactic war like the movie "Independence Day"

The thought of some redneck hunting, ended the world as we know it...Hmmm?..deja-vu, somewhere in TX a small village is missing an idiot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Funny thing about it is you'd think this would be all over the news 24/7 but the govt. is so quick to sweep it under the carpet that if it aint shooting at or stealing our weapons then its nothing to report. I also find it interesting that most ufo reports (200 a month) are in the western states like Cali, Colo, and TX, NM, why is that?.Less population? Closer to area 51? or are their more nuclear facilities there.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

NAFP_supah
01-15-2008, 02:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Swivet:
Imagine if he did shoot at it and triggered a intergalactic war like the movie "Independence Day"

The thought of some redneck hunting, ended the world as we know it...Hmmm?..deja-vu, somewhere in TX a small village is missing an idiot. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Funny thing about it is you'd think this would be all over the news 24/7 but the govt. is so quick to sweep it under the carpet that if it aint shooting at or stealing our weapons then its nothing to report. I also find it interesting that most ufo reports (200 a month) are in the western states like Cali, Colo, and TX, NM, why is that?.Less population? Closer to area 51? or are their more nuclear facilities there.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

More Fairy-gass man I'm telling you, they run their ships off off it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pirschjaeger
01-15-2008, 03:33 PM
Hmmm, a ufo outrunning fighter jets in the bible belt.

Intellegent Design? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Fritz

leitmotiv
01-15-2008, 03:53 PM
http://z.about.com/d/urbanlegends/1/0/c/n/texas_rattlesnake_sm.jpg

SeaFireLIV
01-15-2008, 04:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Swivet:
Imagine if he did shoot at it and triggered a intergalactic war like the movie "Independence Day"

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Somehow I don`t think we`d easily defeat them with a computer virus. Methinks we`d all end up as food quicker than you could say little green men.

BillyTheKid_22
01-15-2008, 04:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leitmotiv:
http://z.about.com/d/urbanlegends/1/0/c/n/texas_rattlesnake_sm.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



LoL!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

RepublicofTexas
01-15-2008, 04:44 PM
I woulda shot it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Lurch1962
01-15-2008, 05:21 PM
Amazing how UFO spotters have laser range-finding, micrometry-accurate eyes. How else could they know the size and altitude of an object for which they otherwise have absolutely no idea of size?

In 1968 there was a rash of UFO reports one particular night. Many people noted its rather low altitude of hundreds, or perhaps thousands of feet. One "eyewitness" described portholes in the craft through which figures were seen! And what was this mysterious visitor? A Russian satellite re-entering the atmosphere, ablating and vaporizing at least 80km up.

I could (but won't) go on about the utter unreliability of the "evidence" for most visual UFO sightings.

Crash_Moses
01-15-2008, 05:24 PM
Puh-leese. There's no such thing as UFOs.

Everybody knows it was an advanced spy plane built by the Russians with stolen German technology, based in Cuba and piloted by Chinese robots.

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y125/Crash_Moses/Lerche_01.jpg

stalkervision
01-15-2008, 05:26 PM
How about one 100 or so ft. high...

that made no sound.

and had five alternating colored lights.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

crucislancer
01-15-2008, 05:37 PM
I think it's possible that UFOs might be extraterrestrial in origin. Why? because it hasn't been proven either way that we are alone in the universe.

But, when it comes to UFOs, I'll look to what's possible for us first. It could very well have been a top secret project. Or an airliner like someone mentioned. One person's point of view could easily seem like they are looking at something that might be literally alien. On the other hand, someone who knows better could see something quite down to earth.

I'm not holding my breath, but I won't rule it out, either.

heywooood
01-15-2008, 05:39 PM
you're right - when I think about the one I saw a couple of years ago - I called the TRACON center in Miramar to see if they saw it on radar - I reported it flying at about 20,000 feet or so...but I was assuming it to be close in size to the airliner that had just taken off from Lindberg field and was climbing out almost directly overhead (I live in OB slightly off the runway 9/27 departure/final approach lane) and since the bogie intersected the flight path of the Southwest 737 at a higher altitude and since I had only about 3-5 seconds to track it with my eye - I made an assumption in three dimensions: size, altitude and speed -

The Black Wedge was moving at what I estimated to be mach 8-10 - was of relatively the same size or larger than the 737 - and was at what I estimated (based on my estimate of its size) an altitude of 20,000 ft or so...there was broken cumulous at about 5-7,000 ft and the bogie was well above that....but there was no sonic boom discenable, even though I told myself at the time that I might not have heard or noticed it because the 737 was still at takeoff power and even with the high bypass turbofan engines that make them much quieter that might be why I could not hear the Wedge...I am beginning to think that it might have actually been much higher than I assumed as in above the atmosphere...and therefore much much larger.

the only things about the Wedge that I know for sure was that it was black and non reflective and had no lights of any kind, it was faster than anything I ever saw or imagined, and the direction of travel was in a straight line from roughly just north of due east toward the southwest...it was incredible and I saw it by pure chance. No time to fetch a camera or binoculars or a pump shottie or any of that.

SeaFireLIV
01-15-2008, 05:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crucislancer:
I think it's possible that UFOs might be extraterrestrial in origin. Why? because it hasn't been proven either way that we are alone in the universe.

I'm not holding my breath, but I won't rule it out, either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pure logic dictates we aren`t alone in the universe. Pure logic also dictates that the Sun will probabaly go nova before we find what else is out there, ie - never. To be honest, I don`t think we`re meant to find anything sentient out there.

Skoshi Tiger
01-15-2008, 05:55 PM
Shooting the aliens isn't the problem, its disposing of the bodies afterwards. The suckers just don't stay dead!

Skoshi Tiger
01-15-2008, 06:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crucislancer:
I think it's possible that UFOs might be extraterrestrial in origin. Why? because it hasn't been proven either way that we are alone in the universe.

I'm not holding my breath, but I won't rule it out, either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pure logic dictates we aren`t alone in the universe. Pure logic also dictates that the Sun will probabaly go nova before we find what else is out there, ie - never. To be honest, I don`t think we`re meant to find anything sentient out there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also if you look at the types of intellegent life on earth, Great apes, dolphins cuttle fish/squids etc, Humans are the only ar$eholes among them! So if we do meet intelegent life from anothe planet - we're probably safe! It also explains why they've been avoiding us for so long!

DKoor
01-15-2008, 06:37 PM
I wonder who'd won in so called intergalactic war?

.

Lurch1962
01-15-2008, 06:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am beginning to think that it might have actually been much higher than I assumed as in above the atmosphere...and therefore much much larger. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fact that it appeared black proves that it was *within* our atmosphere--to see a dark silhouette absolutely requires a lighter background, hence sunlight-scattering air higher than the object.

If it was truly *outside* the atmosphere, it could only then be seen by reflected sunlight, in which case its illuminated surface would add to the light of the foreground sky. In such case, even if the surface were dark, it would actually appear a bit brighter than the sky because of the addition of two brightness values. However, if sufficiently dark, the contrast might be too low if the sky were bright.

To illustrate that last paragraph, recall that the moon is easily seen in the daytime sky, even though its surface is just about as dark as fresh asphalt (average reflectance = 11%). But in spite of its low reflectance, it appears bright in the surrounding bright sky, in part because of the additive illumination.

As an aside, you may have seen the sci-fi/horror movie, "Pitch Black" (featuring the Rid**** character of two other flicks). Recall the appearance of the other planet's rings when the sky was beginning to darken. The rings were *darker* than the foreground sky! That's absolutely impossible in any conceivable Universe where the laws of optics as we know them apply. In that situation they *must* have appeared brighter than the sky, even if the ring particles were quite dark themselves (but as mentioned above, if truly black they would have had insufficient contrast to be visible at all.)

--Lurch--

stalkervision
01-15-2008, 07:19 PM
"aliens in the Whitehouse"

now you know why they were in Texas... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgYMxuF4PjA

heywooood
01-15-2008, 08:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lurch1962:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I am beginning to think that it might have actually been much higher than I assumed as in above the atmosphere...and therefore much much larger. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The fact that it appeared black proves that it was *within* our atmosphere--to see a dark silhouette absolutely requires a lighter background, hence sunlight-scattering air higher than the object.

If it was truly *outside* the atmosphere, it could only then be seen by reflected sunlight, in which case its illuminated surface would add to the light of the foreground sky. In such case, even if the surface were dark, it would actually appear a bit brighter than the sky because of the addition of two brightness values. However, if sufficiently dark, the contrast might be too low if the sky were bright.

To illustrate that last paragraph, recall that the moon is easily seen in the daytime sky, even though its surface is just about as dark as fresh asphalt (average reflectance = 11%). But in spite of its low reflectance, it appears bright in the surrounding bright sky, in part because of the additive illumination.

As an aside, you may have seen the sci-fi/horror movie, "Pitch Black" (featuring the Rid**** character of two other flicks). Recall the appearance of the other planet's rings when the sky was beginning to darken. The rings were *darker* than the foreground sky! That's absolutely impossible in any conceivable Universe where the laws of optics as we know them apply. In that situation they *must* have appeared brighter than the sky, even if the ring particles were quite dark themselves (but as mentioned above, if truly black they would have had insufficient contrast to be visible at all.)

--Lurch-- </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that sounds right Lurch - but unless you had seen this thing - it wasn't just black...it was the absence of light.
Against the night sky - there was a partial lunar eclipse - and with the sparse cumulous tufts here and there that were glowing pale white from the reflected city light and the 2/3 exposed moonlight, this Wedge was absolutely BLACK.

I only happened to see it because as we were watching the eclipse - the Southwest 737 appeared and continued to rise into our view - at almost 75 degrees from the horizon and as my eyes were drawn to it, the Wedge crossed its path above....No one would have ever just looked up and saw this thing - it was pure chance that I did...

First I called the ATC at Lindberg and they said they didn't pick it up but told me to call TRACON So Cal Approach so I did - the reason I was concerned is that this thing went over a commercial airport and NAS North Island with no nav lights on it...pretty dangerous situation...

Tracon said they missed it - I had the exact time from the Lindberg flight board because of the 737 and that I had already ID'd it as a Southwest livery...8:55 pm and the approximate course and my speed estimate. I thought it might be military and said so..maybe the SR71's replacement the Penetrator?

The guy said there was nothing unusual and took down my name and phone number incase any other stations saw it....

I got a call about 20 minutes later - Mr.Woooood he says -
yes - speaking I say
Can you tell me what you reported to the TRACON facility in Miramar? he asks.
Who is calling? I ask the feller.
Can you describe what you saw Mr Woood?
(there is a muted conversation going on behind this guy that I can make out over the phone and it may involve 3 or 4 distinctly different voices but I can't make out what they are saying)
So I tell the guy what I told the TRACON feller thinking I'll get this guys name and so on afterwards
He listens and I hear the conversation behind him peter out - then he says Mr. Wooood - there were no military flights in that area this evening
I say - ok - but did you people see anything in the area at all? because there is a commercial airport right there and a Naval Air Station close by and...
Mr.Woood he says....there were no military flights in that area this evening so I'm not sure what you might have seen, sorry
and he hung up - I still don't know who or where that guy was.

Kinda expected a black SUV to pull up beside me one day though...for a while anyways

But anyway - the Wedge was blacker than black - it was like looking at a hole in the sky...

Friendly_flyer
01-15-2008, 11:48 PM
With that very insistent tone from the a guy who did not introduce himself, I guess it really was a military aircraft having done something stupid.

Lucius_Esox
01-16-2008, 12:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">About 200 UFO sightings are reported each month, mostly in California, Colorado and Texas, according to the Mutual UFO Network, which plans to go to the 17,000-resident town of Stephenville to investigate.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

lol...

Pirschjaeger
01-16-2008, 12:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by stalkervision:
How about one 100 or so ft. high...

that made no sound.

and had five alternating colored lights.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being January and all, maybe the neighbors were throwing their Christmas tree to the trash. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

kid_SA
01-16-2008, 01:37 AM
hahaha! And the story says that 14% of Americans think they have seen a UFO. LOL!

There was once a brilliant Calvin & Hobbs that went: "sometimes I think the surest sign that there is intelligent life out there is that none of it has tried to contact us".

Seriously, I can't believe the lengths some people go to. There may well be life out there. If it really is an infinite universe, there cannot BUT be life out there, but the question is: would it care? Would it visit us but hide from us (except the US government) and only visit the US but not hide quite so well as for noone to see them...

Little green men who can travel faster than the speed of light to get to our planet, but who go (at most) mach ten. uh huh. Cute furry creatures who are too stupid to hide from the knowing eyes of the Texan hunter, but who elude the greatest space observatories in the world. And this great fascination with America from these UFOs? The sightings are nowhere near that level anywhere else in the world.

The idea that the government is sweeping such stories under the carpet. With 14% of people having seen something they are not supposed to see and many theories, books and magazines being published all the time... they wouldn't be doing a very good job if they did care. In fact, it's almost certainly a huge conspiracy to downplay the whole event by pretending that they do not care. Right. And if they did act, it would be proof that they do care and that something is being covered up. Right.

The very idea that these aliens would need to learn from us or want our cooperation is frankly ridiculous. They can travel faster than light, thereby breaking (or circumventing) all known laws of physics. And THEY need US? We'd be like a zoo to them. Flying low alongside jets, trying to help the US government? It's just the same old complex of humankind that makes us delude ourselves by thinking that we are important. We're not. Noone cares about us, we're blips on a radar. We'd be like monkeys are to us. Some can use basic tools, and some can learn to speak, but yeah... not quite. We can use basic physics, and have simple structure, but yeah... not quite.

And seriously. Coloured lights?? The UFO is trying to hide from humanity but can't turn off the flashing display?
"scott, scott, turn off the disco lights, the hairies will see us AGAIN and then we won't get our christmas bonus
-Smoke on the water!!! Oh yeah!"

Heywood: a new stealth fighter/bomber flying more overtly than he was supposed to, deliberately trying to sound all "spooky" to throw you off the casual scent?

Or just some UFO crackpot? I doubt any MIB would sound quite so blatantly conspiracy-like. They'd have to be the dummest people imaginable. A simple cover story about a newspaper or another ATC checkup and a fake name would have left you none the wiser, but would have gotten all the info needed without alerting you to the grand plan of alien cooperation.

MEGILE
01-16-2008, 02:43 AM
Little green men don't travel a million light years across a vacuum in an aerodynamic space craft, to hide behind trees and cut up cows every now and again, only to give the jig up when they forget they left their turn indicators on.

Pirschjaeger
01-16-2008, 02:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
Kinda expected a black SUV to pull up beside me one day though...for a while anyways
. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You might wanna tattoo a map of Siberia on your back before it's too late. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Fritz

CzechTexan
01-16-2008, 07:05 AM
wOw! this was about an hour drive from where I live.

[Fritz wrote: "Being January and all, maybe the neighbors were throwing their Christmas tree to the trash."]

My idea is that someone was test flying their new radio-controlled model airplane they got for Christmas." http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Blood_Splat
01-16-2008, 07:37 AM
It was swamp gas. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pirschjaeger
01-16-2008, 07:38 AM
At first, people thought these were aliens caught on tape.

Aliens? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYzjQf2mC7M&NR=1)

But it was later proven to be a couple simmers waiting "two weeks".

Fritz

Blood_Splat
01-16-2008, 08:00 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReMj-EHGGAU&feature=related

horseback
01-16-2008, 12:54 PM
...that looks like a wonderful way to start a wildfire in California.

The reason that the unusual lights in the sky are more likely to be noted in rural areas is that the night sky is not obscured by streetlights, headlights, neon signs, and the dust/smoke/smog inherent in any urban nighttime environment.

People who live in places where the night sky can be seen clearly also tend to actually look at the sky; it's beautiful most of the time, as well as being a reliable indication of incoming weather. As a result, the appearance of something unusual will be more likely to be noticed, discussed and pondered, while a city dweller is more likely to go the 'none of my business' or the 'everyone will think I'm nuts' route.

The Western US is very sparsely settled compared to areas in Europe or on the the other sides of the Sierra-Nevada and Rocky Mountains. It has very clear skies most of the year, so it doesn't seem entirely unrealistic to me that there would be more sightings reported from that area, assuming that the little green (or grey) men are giving the earth even coverage before they come to steal our buxom blonde daughters for the intergalactic white slavery trade.

cheers

horseback

sgt.dumpster
01-16-2008, 01:12 PM
i am totally going with "Crash_Moses" (page 1} on this one, but only to disagree with the chinese robots.............come on, they were built in Japan!!! This site and the people here are starting to become family to me in in this secluded life of mine! love all the provided humor ALWAYZ!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!-astrogoth

Pirschjaeger
01-16-2008, 01:38 PM
I love this headline:

Sighting baffles UFO experts (http://uncensored.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/northland-news-29aug07_ufo.jpg)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Ironic

Fritz

WTE_Googly
01-16-2008, 03:20 PM
Actually Pirschjaeger, there have been quite a few sightings in New Zealand as well - there was a series of sightings in 1978 which were dubbed 'the kaikoura lights' which was seen by an aircraft, and by air traffic control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaikoura_lights



http://ufos.about.com/od/visualproofphotosvideo/a/kaikoura.htm

Copperhead311th
01-16-2008, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Googly:
Actually Pirschjaeger, there have been quite a few sightings in New Zealand as well - there was a series of sightings in 1978 which were dubbed 'the kaikoura lights' which was seen by an aircraft, and by air traffic control.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaikoura_lights



http://ufos.about.com/od/visualproofphotosvideo/a/kaikoura.htm </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right Goodly.
i rmrmber watcing something about those.

and if SOME PPL don't have the brains enough to know that these sightings have been world wide and NOT just in the US and thier makeing smart as steryotypiccal coments just to be a wise ***..... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

you know who you are. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Copperhead311th
01-16-2008, 05:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
I wonder who'd won in so called intergalactic war?

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easy we still have a few flying P-51's left.

DrHerb
01-16-2008, 06:02 PM
http://www.awn.com/mag/issue1.10/images/JacksonMarsAttacks06.gif

ACK!!! ACK!!!

Crazy_Goanna
01-16-2008, 06:20 PM
There was a UFO related disappearance of a light plane pilot in southern Australia, in the Bass strait region which had substantial news coverage in October 1978, it has not been fully explained to this day.

25 years ago on this day Frederick Valentich disappeared over Bass Strait in very strange circumstances. It is a mystery that still has not been explained.

It was the extraordinary disappearance of pilot Frederick Valentich (left) over Bass Strait on October 21st, 1978, that thrust the subject of UFOs into the news headlines around the world. The Valentich mystery has endured as an insoluble enigma. The crux of the mystery is just what happened to the young pilot and his 182 Cessna light aircraft - VH - DSJ (Delta Sierra Juliet) - during that October evening. The circumstances behind the total disappearance of both pilot and plane have since been elevated into one of the premier mysteries of aviation and for many one of the most intriguing elements of the UFO phenomenon.

The fact that the mystery has lasted so long is a direct result of the incredible aspects at the heart of the affair. Twenty year-old Frederick Valentich, 47 minutes into what should have been a routine 69 minute flight from Moorabin, Victoria, to King Island, reported in a radio conversation with Melbourne Flight Service Unit controller, Steve Robey, of seeing an unidentified "aircraft" near him.

The only official report to emerge on the affair was an Aircraft Accident Investigation Summary Report, reference No. V116/783/1047. The basic relevant events and transcript of the conversation between Valentich and Robey - a "radio encounter of a weird kind" - included in the report are given here:

The pilot obtained a class Four instrument rating on 11 May 1978 and he was therefore authorised to operate at night in visual meteorological conditions (VMC). On the afternoon of 21 October 1978 he attended the Moorabbin Briefing Office, obtained a meteorological briefing and, at 1723 hours, submitted a flight plan for a night VMC flight from Moorabbin to King Island and return. The cruising altitude nominated in the flight plan was below 5000 feet, with estimated time intervals of 41 minutes to Cape Otway and 28 minutes from Cape Otway to King Island. The total fuel endurance was shown at 300 minutes. The pilot made no arrangements for aerodrome lighting to be illuminated for his arrival at King Island. He advised the briefing officer and the operator's representative that he was uplifting friends at King Island and took four life jackets in the aircraft with him.

The aircraft was refuelled to capacity at 1810 hours and departed Moorabbin at 1819 hours. After departure the pilot established two-way radio communication with Melbourne Flight Service Unit (FSU).

Valentich reported in this transmission that "a large aircraft" appeared below him, then apparently passed over his aircraft. He felt it was an "unknown aircraft" particularly because of its apparent speed. It approached him from the east and seemed to be "playing some sort of game", "flying over me two three times at speeds I could not identify". Frederick Valentich emphasised, "It's not an aircraft ... it's flying past, it's a long shape." Then he described, "it seems like its stationary.
What I'm doing right now is orbiting and the thing is just orbiting on top of me also it's got a green light and sort of metallic (like) it's all shiny (on) the outside." One minute later Valentich said the object was approaching his aircraft from the Southwest. Then the Cessna's engine started rough idling. Frederick Valentich's last transmission was, "...that strange aircraft is hovering on top of me again. It is hovering and it's not an aircraft." 17 seconds of open microphone followed with metallic like sounds hear, perhaps like the rapid keying of the plane's microphone, and then silence. An intensive air, sea and land search followed over the next 4 days. No trace of pilot or plane was ever found.

The weather in the Cape Otway area was clear with a trace of stratocumulus cloud at 5000 to 7000 feet, scattered cirrus cloud at 30000 feet, excellent visibility and light winds. The end of daylight at Cape Otway was at 1918 hours.

The Alert Phase of SAR procedures was declared at 1912 hours and, at 1933 hours when the aircraft did not arrive at King Island, the Distress Phase was declared and search action was commenced. An intensive air, sea and land search was continued until 25 October 1978, but no trace of the aircraft was found.

The official report also refers to the following points:

Location of occurrence: Not known

Time: Not known

Degree of injury: presumed fatal

Opinion as to cause (of "Aircraft Accident"): The reason for the disappearance of the aircraft has not been determined

Steve Robey, the FSU or Flight Service Unit radio controller, who spoke with Valentich during those 6 minutes leading up to his disappearance, said in a Melbourne Herald interview:

"I think at first he was a little concerned about this other aircraft flying around him, and of course I had to assume that it was another aircraft until it developed and became a little mysterious. Towards the end I think he was definitely concerned for his safety; I considered that he would have had to have been a good actor to have put it all together the way he did."

Robey did not believe he had talked to a disorientated pilot,

"It was as though he was looking around for this thing as he was speaking on the radio ... a young fellow with little experience; it was getting dark, and visual reference to the ground is fading. In a situation like this, if this is what happened, it is understandable he is getting a little bit uptight.

"It was a kind of rushed communication ... it was as if he was startled... he was definitely concerned ... it sounded as though it was rattling him."

Apart from a very early attempt to suggest that Frederick Valentich may have been flying upside down, totally disorientated, with lighthouse lights producing his perception of an "unidentified aircraft", the Australian Department of Aviation has never officially addressed the question of what Valentich may have been observing prior to his disappearance.

See this episode in full here:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case24.htm

or here with other encounters:
http://www.theozfiles.com/ufos_subrosa6.html
http://www.theozfiles.com/ufos_subrosa.html

Bass strait has been a region where 'sightings' have been recorded as far back as 1896
-The Melbourne Argus newspaper even described many people seeing "cigar-shaped" objects flying over Bass Strait as far back as 1896.

I reserve judgement but it seems that something truly inexplicable has been happening in our skies for many many decades.

It would be fantastic to know the truth one way or the other as I suspect we are 'guinea-pigs' or lab-rats and they don't know that research is being done to them so why should we as that would influence the results being obtained!

I keep an open mind on these events as we should all so do.

VW-IceFire
01-16-2008, 06:23 PM
Some of the flying lights observations I'm becoming convinced to be ball lighting. I think some researchers have gathered some information on these in the last few years and started to understand whats going on in the atmosphere for these to occur. Apparently they even will show up on radar as having a signature if they fit some sort of criteria. But as to flying objects that are distinctly black...anyones guess.

The important thing I think is to keep an open mind while remaining skeptical. Of all of the thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of sightings all over the world the vast majority are going to be mundane things like misidentified aircraft, atmospheric phenomenon (there are plenty of strange ones that keep being discovered), meteorites, and so forth. There will be a small percentage of the hoaxes...those are usually the ones that are so "amazing" as to not be believable. Finally there are an even smaller percentage of UFO sightings where everything else can be ruled out and it can be chalked up to either a secret military test flight (although thats less likely outside of the US, Russia, some countries in Europe) or its a total unknown and we just have no idea what we're dealing with. In that last fraction of a percentage point I wonder...and keep an open mind...anything could be possible but we simply don't have enough pieces of the puzzle to solve it. There is no way to know.

The thing that keeps the conspiracy theorists going is always the secrecy and top secret classifications by the governments of the world. It seems like they all freak out when stuff unexplained happens. I'd love for them to open the boxes, air it all out, let things be...and get rid of the silliness. Thats just me.

F0_Dark_P
01-16-2008, 06:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
I wonder who'd won in so called intergalactic war?

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easy we still have a few flying P-51's left. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>IIRC did not a US pilot engage a UFO in the 50ies with a P-51?..

he crashed after however.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Airmail109
01-16-2008, 06:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crazy_Goanna:
There was a UFO related disappearance of a light plane pilot in southern Australia, in the Bass strait region which had substantial news coverage in October 1978, it has not been fully explained to this day.

25 years ago on this day Frederick Valentich disappeared over Bass Strait in very strange circumstances. It is a mystery that still has not been explained.

It was the extraordinary disappearance of pilot Frederick Valentich (left) over Bass Strait on October 21st, 1978, that thrust the subject of UFOs into the news headlines around the world. The Valentich mystery has endured as an insoluble enigma. The crux of the mystery is just what happened to the young pilot and his 182 Cessna light aircraft - VH - DSJ (Delta Sierra Juliet) - during that October evening. The circumstances behind the total disappearance of both pilot and plane have since been elevated into one of the premier mysteries of aviation and for many one of the most intriguing elements of the UFO phenomenon.

The fact that the mystery has lasted so long is a direct result of the incredible aspects at the heart of the affair. Twenty year-old Frederick Valentich, 47 minutes into what should have been a routine 69 minute flight from Moorabin, Victoria, to King Island, reported in a radio conversation with Melbourne Flight Service Unit controller, Steve Robey, of seeing an unidentified "aircraft" near him.

The only official report to emerge on the affair was an Aircraft Accident Investigation Summary Report, reference No. V116/783/1047. The basic relevant events and transcript of the conversation between Valentich and Robey - a "radio encounter of a weird kind" - included in the report are given here:

The pilot obtained a class Four instrument rating on 11 May 1978 and he was therefore authorised to operate at night in visual meteorological conditions (VMC). On the afternoon of 21 October 1978 he attended the Moorabbin Briefing Office, obtained a meteorological briefing and, at 1723 hours, submitted a flight plan for a night VMC flight from Moorabbin to King Island and return. The cruising altitude nominated in the flight plan was below 5000 feet, with estimated time intervals of 41 minutes to Cape Otway and 28 minutes from Cape Otway to King Island. The total fuel endurance was shown at 300 minutes. The pilot made no arrangements for aerodrome lighting to be illuminated for his arrival at King Island. He advised the briefing officer and the operator's representative that he was uplifting friends at King Island and took four life jackets in the aircraft with him.

The aircraft was refuelled to capacity at 1810 hours and departed Moorabbin at 1819 hours. After departure the pilot established two-way radio communication with Melbourne Flight Service Unit (FSU).

Valentich reported in this transmission that "a large aircraft" appeared below him, then apparently passed over his aircraft. He felt it was an "unknown aircraft" particularly because of its apparent speed. It approached him from the east and seemed to be "playing some sort of game", "flying over me two three times at speeds I could not identify". Frederick Valentich emphasised, "It's not an aircraft ... it's flying past, it's a long shape." Then he described, "it seems like its stationary.
What I'm doing right now is orbiting and the thing is just orbiting on top of me also it's got a green light and sort of metallic (like) it's all shiny (on) the outside." One minute later Valentich said the object was approaching his aircraft from the Southwest. Then the Cessna's engine started rough idling. Frederick Valentich's last transmission was, "...that strange aircraft is hovering on top of me again. It is hovering and it's not an aircraft." 17 seconds of open microphone followed with metallic like sounds hear, perhaps like the rapid keying of the plane's microphone, and then silence. An intensive air, sea and land search followed over the next 4 days. No trace of pilot or plane was ever found.

The weather in the Cape Otway area was clear with a trace of stratocumulus cloud at 5000 to 7000 feet, scattered cirrus cloud at 30000 feet, excellent visibility and light winds. The end of daylight at Cape Otway was at 1918 hours.

The Alert Phase of SAR procedures was declared at 1912 hours and, at 1933 hours when the aircraft did not arrive at King Island, the Distress Phase was declared and search action was commenced. An intensive air, sea and land search was continued until 25 October 1978, but no trace of the aircraft was found.

The official report also refers to the following points:

Location of occurrence: Not known

Time: Not known

Degree of injury: presumed fatal

Opinion as to cause (of "Aircraft Accident"): The reason for the disappearance of the aircraft has not been determined

Steve Robey, the FSU or Flight Service Unit radio controller, who spoke with Valentich during those 6 minutes leading up to his disappearance, said in a Melbourne Herald interview:

"I think at first he was a little concerned about this other aircraft flying around him, and of course I had to assume that it was another aircraft until it developed and became a little mysterious. Towards the end I think he was definitely concerned for his safety; I considered that he would have had to have been a good actor to have put it all together the way he did."

Robey did not believe he had talked to a disorientated pilot,

"It was as though he was looking around for this thing as he was speaking on the radio ... a young fellow with little experience; it was getting dark, and visual reference to the ground is fading. In a situation like this, if this is what happened, it is understandable he is getting a little bit uptight.

"It was a kind of rushed communication ... it was as if he was startled... he was definitely concerned ... it sounded as though it was rattling him."

Apart from a very early attempt to suggest that Frederick Valentich may have been flying upside down, totally disorientated, with lighthouse lights producing his perception of an "unidentified aircraft", the Australian Department of Aviation has never officially addressed the question of what Valentich may have been observing prior to his disappearance.

See this episode in full here:
http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case24.htm

or here with other encounters:
http://www.theozfiles.com/ufos_subrosa6.html
http://www.theozfiles.com/ufos_subrosa.html

Bass strait has been a region where 'sightings' have been recorded as far back as 1896
-The Melbourne Argus newspaper even described many people seeing "cigar-shaped" objects flying over Bass Strait as far back as 1896.

I reserve judgement but it seems that something truly inexplicable has been happening in our skies for many many decades.

It would be fantastic to know the truth one way or the other as I suspect we are 'guinea-pigs' or lab-rats and they don't know that research is being done to them so why should we as that would influence the results being obtained!

I keep an open mind on these events as we should all so do. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im a skeptic

But honestly that creeps me out

Thx a lot lol

If there are aliens watching us, I hope on day we get to kidnap them and shove probes up their butts

F0_Dark_P
01-16-2008, 06:42 PM
Yeah that was creepy! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Airmail109
01-16-2008, 07:06 PM
no joke but Ive seen one of the triangle ones with light at each corner coming in low heading towards RAF Cottesmore at about 3AM before I went on holiday a year or so ago, 2 other witnesses saw it as well.

Thought It was a B2....

Airmail109
01-16-2008, 07:57 PM
Dont know whether to laugh or cry, weird world

Watch this but also make sure to watch it from 3:43 ONWARDS

Anyone care to explain this sighting by a Mexican Military aircraft using an IR sensor/camera/flir thingy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDOOZ_IPb6Y

waffen-79
01-16-2008, 08:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Dont know whether to laugh or cry, weird world

Anyone care to explain this sighting by a Mexican Military aircraft using an IR sensor/camera/flir thingy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDOOZ_IPb6Y
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe the FLIR was faulty?

Airmail109
01-16-2008, 08:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by waffen-79:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Dont know whether to laugh or cry, weird world

Anyone care to explain this sighting by a Mexican Military aircraft using an IR sensor/camera/flir thingy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDOOZ_IPb6Y
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe the FLIR was faulty? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Watch the last bit, I reckon its a natural phenomena but its still awesome. FAR clearer than the first bit. Starts at about 3:43 The objects are quite clearly passing through clouds and out the the other side.

Is the Mexican military really so incompetent that it would issue a press statement to the contary though? I mean sure, could happen I guess. But to me It doesn't seem to be a fault.

Someone explain to me what they are lol. I have no idea about optics and thermal systems.

EDIT: It seems the aircaft that took the flir footage also caught them on radar

fordfan25
01-16-2008, 08:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
you're right - when I think about the one I saw a couple of years ago - I called the TRACON center in Miramar to see if they saw it on radar - I reported it flying at about 20,000 feet or so...but I was assuming it to be close in size to the airliner that had just taken off from Lindberg field and was climbing out almost directly overhead (I live in OB slightly off the runway 9/27 departure/final approach lane) and since the bogie intersected the flight path of the Southwest 737 at a higher altitude and since I had only about 3-5 seconds to track it with my eye - I made an assumption in three dimensions: size, altitude and speed -

The Black Wedge was moving at what I estimated to be mach 8-10 - was of relatively the same size or larger than the 737 - and was at what I estimated (based on my estimate of its size) an altitude of 20,000 ft or so...there was broken cumulous at about 5-7,000 ft and the bogie was well above that....but there was no sonic boom discenable, even though I told myself at the time that I might not have heard or noticed it because the 737 was still at takeoff power and even with the high bypass turbofan engines that make them much quieter that might be why I could not hear the Wedge...I am beginning to think that it might have actually been much higher than I assumed as in above the atmosphere...and therefore much much larger.

the only things about the Wedge that I know for sure was that it was black and non reflective and had no lights of any kind, it was faster than anything I ever saw or imagined, and the direction of travel was in a straight line from roughly just north of due east toward the southwest...it was incredible and I saw it by pure chance. No time to fetch a camera or binoculars or a pump shottie or any of that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>my father and i both saw this wedge shaped UFO in the late 80's. but it was low near tree top. it was about 11:00 at night in Sebastian florida. the UFO was HUGE. i would say roughly 5 foot ball feilds from tip to tip. no lights no sound. we both were out watching for shooting stars in our frount yard. it was darker than the night and blacked out the stars. almost like a shadow going across the sky.

Airmail109
01-16-2008, 08:58 PM
I say we ring the planet with orbiting lasers, 1000 megaton nukes and a huge plasma cannon on the moon. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Loco-S
01-16-2008, 09:02 PM
The Mexican sighting was simply some "coyotes" smuggling illegals agross the rio Grande with the help of a trebuchet.

Airmail109
01-16-2008, 09:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
you're right - when I think about the one I saw a couple of years ago - I called the TRACON center in Miramar to see if they saw it on radar - I reported it flying at about 20,000 feet or so...but I was assuming it to be close in size to the airliner that had just taken off from Lindberg field and was climbing out almost directly overhead (I live in OB slightly off the runway 9/27 departure/final approach lane) and since the bogie intersected the flight path of the Southwest 737 at a higher altitude and since I had only about 3-5 seconds to track it with my eye - I made an assumption in three dimensions: size, altitude and speed -

The Black Wedge was moving at what I estimated to be mach 8-10 - was of relatively the same size or larger than the 737 - and was at what I estimated (based on my estimate of its size) an altitude of 20,000 ft or so...there was broken cumulous at about 5-7,000 ft and the bogie was well above that....but there was no sonic boom discenable, even though I told myself at the time that I might not have heard or noticed it because the 737 was still at takeoff power and even with the high bypass turbofan engines that make them much quieter that might be why I could not hear the Wedge...I am beginning to think that it might have actually been much higher than I assumed as in above the atmosphere...and therefore much much larger.

the only things about the Wedge that I know for sure was that it was black and non reflective and had no lights of any kind, it was faster than anything I ever saw or imagined, and the direction of travel was in a straight line from roughly just north of due east toward the southwest...it was incredible and I saw it by pure chance. No time to fetch a camera or binoculars or a pump shottie or any of that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>my father and i both saw this wedge shaped UFO in the late 80's. but it was low near tree top. it was about 11:00 at night in Sebastian florida. the UFO was HUGE. i would say roughly 5 foot ball feilds from tip to tip. no lights no sound. we both were out watching for shooting stars in our frount yard. it was darker than the night and blacked out the stars. almost like a shadow going across the sky. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Saw another odd one that was possibly a missile, on the south coast of England. Looking out to sea near Bideford an object streaked parallel to the horizon and directly above it from one end to the other in about 5 seconds.

Your sighting sounds similar to mine near RAF Cottesmore, didnt think it was the size of three football fields though.

Airmail109
01-16-2008, 09:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Loco-S:
The Mexican sighting was simply some "coyotes" smuggling illegals agross the rio Grande with the help of a trebuchet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Airmail109
01-16-2008, 09:14 PM
Hahahahah off wikipedia

This stuffs going to keep me entertained, life is wonderfully amusing

"There is also some speculation about defending against alien invasion, though this is typically in the science fiction realm, as extraterrestrial life's existence is unknown. A recent textbook by Dr. Travis S. Taylor, Dr. Bob Boan, R.C. Anding, and Dr. T. Conley Powell, entitled An Introduction to Planetary Defense: A Study of Modern Warfare Applied to Extra-Terrestrial Invasion[1] offers some insight, details, and analysis of how humanity might defend itself against an alien invasion. For example, on page 127, the authors respond to questions in how to deal with a scenario in which an extra-terrestrial craft crash lands on Earth. All four authors agree that the following should be withheld from public knowledge subsequent to this hypothetical event: existence of extra-terrestrial life; the recovery of alien bodies; acquisition of extra-terrestrial technology. It should be noted that the authors of this textbook have contributed to the design of military weapons and arsenal"

Airmail109
01-16-2008, 10:15 PM
Oh god this is to much http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

"Paul Hellyer, a former Canadian Minister of Defense and Deputy Prime Minister under Pierre Trudeau, has joined forces with three Non-governmental organizations
to ask the Parliament of Canada to hold public hearings on Exopolitics, relations with "ETs."

By ET, Hellyer, now 82, means advanced extraterrestrial civilizations.

The 'visionary' former Canadian Minister of Defense said in a speech held at the University of Toronto: "UFOs, are as real as the airplanes that fly over your head."

"I'm so concerned about what the consequences might be of starting an intergalactic war, that I just think I had to say something", he added.

And he did. Hellyer warned that the United States military are preparing weapons which could be used against the aliens, and that we might be heading towards an intergalactic war without any warning.

"The Bush administration has finally agreed to let the military build a forward base on the moon, which will put them in a better position to keep track of the goings and comings of the visitors from space, and to shoot at them, if they so decid", Paul Hellyer mentioned.

At the end of the speech, Hellyer said with enthusiasm: "The time has come to lift the veil of secrecy, and let the truth emerge, so there can be a real and informed debate, about one of the most important problems facing our planet today", probably forgetting about the ˜other' important problems, like pollution, melting of the ice cap, poverty, diseases and other similar "

Oh cruel fate, to be thusly boned. Ask not for whom the bone bones, it bones for thee.

VW-IceFire
01-16-2008, 10:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
Dont know whether to laugh or cry, weird world

Watch this but also make sure to watch it from 3:43 ONWARDS

Anyone care to explain this sighting by a Mexican Military aircraft using an IR sensor/camera/flir thingy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDOOZ_IPb6Y </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I remember when those came out...I think a few people are convinced, like I was talking about before, that its ball lighting. So its probably in the realm of strange, weird, atmospheric phenomenon.

Luke5skywalker4
01-16-2008, 11:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F0_Dark_P:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
I wonder who'd won in so called intergalactic war?

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easy we still have a few flying P-51's left. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>IIRC did not a US pilot engage a UFO in the 50ies with a P-51?..

he crashed after however.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe there is also a story about a U.S. pilot engaging or crashing into a UFO over Lake Superior, which is interesting since I live in Minnesota and not more than 15 minutes from that Lake.

"Lake Superior UFO Found Near F-89 Jet

Divers from the Great Lakes Dive company claim to have located a U.S. Air Force F-89 Scorpion jet fighter 500 feet deep in Lake Superior. Two hundred feet away is a strange metallic disc shaped object almost buried in the sand..."

http://www.mysterious-america.net/updateonf-89jeti.html (did a quick google)

Some people don't think there is anything out of the ordinary about UFO's, but with reports of pilots sighting this stuff it at least gains some kind of credibility compared to an average joe seeing something in the sky (who are you going to believe more?).

WWSensei
01-16-2008, 11:02 PM
Aliens capable of interstellar flight routine enough to visit us often would be so ahead of technologically we would really be little more to them than possible slave labor or food.

It would be akin to a modern day pilot coming across a surviving mammal shortly after the dinosaur killing asteroid hit.

99% of people on this planet have little to no understanding of what is naturally in the sky. Even trained people get things wrong all the time. I've stood in awe as a trained fighter pilot claimed he was watching a UFO when it was, in fact, an F-15 doing routine maneuvers at night with afterburners practicing for an airshow. He was an F-15 pilot himself yet didn't recognize the aircraft. He was an idiot.

Most people don't really comprehend the enormous size of the Universe or even our own galaxy. At our current technological level it would take us millions of years to reach the nearest planets. On a galactic scale we aren't much higher up the food chain than the amoeba.

WWSensei
01-16-2008, 11:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by F0_Dark_P:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
I wonder who'd won in so called intergalactic war?

. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Easy we still have a few flying P-51's left. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>IIRC did not a US pilot engage a UFO in the 50ies with a P-51?..

he crashed after however.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a UFO. Venus. He chased after the bright planet, ignored the calls of his wingmen who told him to return once they figured out what it was they were chasing. He kept pursuing after it up to 35,000 feet--without oxygen. He was reporting seeing things, but having sat through a high altitude pressure chamber I can tell you you will certain any number of things as your brain is starved of oxygen.

Anyhow, he passed out and crashed due to his own stupidity.

Luke5skywalker4
01-16-2008, 11:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
Aliens capable of interstellar flight routine enough to visit us often would be so ahead of technologically we would really be little more to them than possible slave labor or food.

It would be akin to a modern day pilot coming across a surviving mammal shortly after the dinosaur killing asteroid hit.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And why not for scientific discovery? I mean you don't do Interstellar travel or Discovery if you don't plan on learning about whatever it is you find. That's like Science Fiction 101, lol. From what you are saying if Humans gained interstellar travel in the future would our first thoughts when seeing another sentient being be, "Oh look, they're technology sucks, lets use them as slaves and then kill them." I think a sentient life form, like a human, would (or rather SHOULD) have more common sense than that.

waffen-79
01-16-2008, 11:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
...high altitude pressure chamber I can tell you you will certain any number of things as your brain is starved of oxygen.

Anyhow, he passed out and crashed due to his own stupidity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he was chasing a real UFO, maybe some experimental US or Canadian a/c, it could be also a soviet spy plane, during the 50's that was common, who knows, but the Planet Venus? really?

Blood_Splat
01-17-2008, 04:23 AM
Well they have been tracked on radar moving at unimaginable speeds. There's been cases of pilots be blown out of the sky while engaging them.

Heavy_Weather
01-17-2008, 01:23 PM
I'm pretty sure it was Chuck Norris. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

fordfan25
01-17-2008, 05:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fordfan25:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
you're right - when I think about the one I saw a couple of years ago - I called the TRACON center in Miramar to see if they saw it on radar - I reported it flying at about 20,000 feet or so...but I was assuming it to be close in size to the airliner that had just taken off from Lindberg field and was climbing out almost directly overhead (I live in OB slightly off the runway 9/27 departure/final approach lane) and since the bogie intersected the flight path of the Southwest 737 at a higher altitude and since I had only about 3-5 seconds to track it with my eye - I made an assumption in three dimensions: size, altitude and speed -

The Black Wedge was moving at what I estimated to be mach 8-10 - was of relatively the same size or larger than the 737 - and was at what I estimated (based on my estimate of its size) an altitude of 20,000 ft or so...there was broken cumulous at about 5-7,000 ft and the bogie was well above that....but there was no sonic boom discenable, even though I told myself at the time that I might not have heard or noticed it because the 737 was still at takeoff power and even with the high bypass turbofan engines that make them much quieter that might be why I could not hear the Wedge...I am beginning to think that it might have actually been much higher than I assumed as in above the atmosphere...and therefore much much larger.

the only things about the Wedge that I know for sure was that it was black and non reflective and had no lights of any kind, it was faster than anything I ever saw or imagined, and the direction of travel was in a straight line from roughly just north of due east toward the southwest...it was incredible and I saw it by pure chance. No time to fetch a camera or binoculars or a pump shottie or any of that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>my father and i both saw this wedge shaped UFO in the late 80's. but it was low near tree top. it was about 11:00 at night in Sebastian florida. the UFO was HUGE. i would say roughly 5 foot ball feilds from tip to tip. no lights no sound. we both were out watching for shooting stars in our frount yard. it was darker than the night and blacked out the stars. almost like a shadow going across the sky. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Saw another odd one that was possibly a missile, on the south coast of England. Looking out to sea near Bideford an object streaked parallel to the horizon and directly above it from one end to the other in about 5 seconds.

Your sighting sounds similar to mine near RAF Cottesmore, didnt think it was the size of three football fields though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> yea im tottaly guessing as it was night and some odd 20 years ago. id say alt was higher than tree top after thinking about it. maby 1k ft at most.prob lower though and yea this sucker was HUGE. from the discripton my friend said it sounded like the stealth bomber but it was way larger than that. and im guessing about the 5 football fields size . but it was near that im sure. and it moved fast. best guess is between 500 to 1k MPH. it was creepy.

crucislancer
01-17-2008, 05:49 PM
I saw something strange in 1991. I was walking home just after 9pm, I saw what I thought was a plane, or the running light from a plane. The light was green, moving parallel to the ground, not even going to venture a guess on speed but it was moving quite fast. It continued on it's parallel course until it got over some small mountains, and then performed an instantaneous 90 degree dive. One second it was straight and level, the next it was going straight down. It went behind the mountains, and I saw a green flash, and that's it.

I would guess that it was at least 5 miles away, based on the distance to the mountains.

It was very weird, to say the least.

DKoor
01-17-2008, 05:49 PM
Intergalactic war started yet?

Who's winning?

Airmail109
01-17-2008, 06:43 PM
Arrrrhahahah

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/showbiz/article-23414203-...n+attack'/article.do (http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/showbiz/article-23414203-details/Tom+Cruise+building+'%A35m+bunker+to+protect+again st+alien+attack'/article.do)

I really really hope the 21st century turns out to be as interesting as people predict. Global warming, peak oil, all out middle-east war, accidental nuclear war, floods, Yellowstone park and an alien invasion will make for great news.

Everything seems absurd now, even mundane news.

Copperhead311th
01-17-2008, 06:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
Aliens capable of interstellar flight routine enough to visit us often would be so ahead of technologically we would really be little more to them than possible slave labor or food.

It would be akin to a modern day pilot coming across a surviving mammal shortly after the dinosaur killing asteroid hit.

99% of people on this planet have little to no understanding of what is naturally in the sky. Even trained people get things wrong all the time. I've stood in awe as a trained fighter pilot claimed he was watching a UFO when it was, in fact, an F-15 doing routine maneuvers at night with afterburners practicing for an airshow. He was an F-15 pilot himself yet didn't recognize the aircraft. He was an idiot.

Most people don't really comprehend the enormous size of the Universe or even our own galaxy. At our current technological level it would take us millions of years to reach the nearest planets. On a galactic scale we aren't much higher up the food chain than the amoeba. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

your just the person i'm looking for Sensei.
Purely Hypothetical question. As a former Viper driver, can you explain to me the USAF policy as it pertains to our pilots involving these sighting? In other words what are are pilots instructed to do upon visual contact with a craft that they can plainly see and not id. What procedures are they instructed to follow?
We all know the USAF has a plan or procedure in place for such an event.... where a pilot sees a UFO, & can plainly tell it's not of earth origin, so much so that there leaves no doubt as to what he's seeing.

So Hyothetically, if a one of our pilots came across this thing in braod day light, directly in his flight path, with in a range that he can plainy see & id that it is not of this world....what would he be required to do according to USAF policies & proceedures.

Obviously the 1st thing would be to change his shorts, & radio it in.
but after that?????

and how wouldt the brass handel it?

Again this is purely hypotheical.

Copperhead311th
01-17-2008, 07:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by waffen-79:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
...high altitude pressure chamber I can tell you you will certain any number of things as your brain is starved of oxygen.

Anyhow, he passed out and crashed due to his own stupidity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he was chasing a real UFO, maybe some experimental US or Canadian a/c, it could be also a soviet spy plane, during the 50's that was common, who knows, but the Planet Venus? really? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. If that had been the case, in paticular if it were US or CDN, they would have imedatly been aware of his pursuit and called him of & orderd him to RTB with no explanation at all to the pilot. Soon as his feet hit the tarmac he'd ahve been orderd to see the flight surgoun.

heywooood
01-17-2008, 09:47 PM
Sensei prolly has something akin to an NDA regarding this kind of stuff...and anyways, If a military pilot in the US wants to keep flying, he likely will keep quiet about anything like this, and if pilot and wingie or pilot and RIO sees something they likely have a debrief protocal and a particular department to report to and another NDA to sign...most likely.

A more interesting question would be for NORAD as to how many flights are scrambled or vectored to unusual radar infrared instrument contact in a given year, only to have a negative pilot contact report or shall we say an 'unconventional visual contact' report filed...

we know what WE are flight testing at that level and where and when OUR newest machines are flying on a given night....but we have to investigate 'unscheduled' events - yes?

Copperhead311th
01-17-2008, 10:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
Sensei prolly has something akin to an NDA regarding this kind of stuff...and anyways, If a military pilot in the US wants to keep flying, he likely will keep quiet about anything like this, and if pilot and wingie or pilot and RIO sees something they likely have a debrief protocal and a particular department to report to and another NDA to sign...most likely.

A more interesting question would be for NORAD as to how many flights are scrambled or vectored to unusual radar infrared instrument contact in a given year, only to have a negative pilot contact report or shall we say an 'unconventional visual contact' report filed...

we know what WE are flight testing at that level and where and when OUR newest machines are flying on a given night....but we have to investigate 'unscheduled' events - yes? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well yeah but i'm not asking anyone to break security protocal. just explain what can beexplained and still remain in the confins of cleance. i'm not asking for sercrets, just what is already public knowlage. and i don't need a lot of deatails.

Pirschjaeger
01-18-2008, 12:34 AM
Here's one that's real. There is actually evidence that this was a UFO. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-CewH99F0K0&feature=related

Fritz

Ratsack
01-18-2008, 12:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Crazy_Goanna:
...Bass strait has been a region where 'sightings' have been recorded as far back as 1896
-The Melbourne Argus newspaper even described many people seeing "cigar-shaped" objects flying over Bass Strait as far back as 1896.
... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's just typical Melbourne one-upmanship. They're only saying they've seen 'cigar-shaped' objects in the sky because Sydney has cigar-shaped objects for real. They're in the water off Bondi... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

cheers,
Ratsack

DKoor
01-18-2008, 04:05 PM
The best of it all is when some thinks how someone travels across the universe with ultra-superior technology yet on the other hand they can "caught" them (seeing or whatever).

Human army vs mouse colony doesn't really picture the difference between such aliens and us.

Mices could be able to probably spot us. Briefly tho.

roybaty
01-18-2008, 04:43 PM
Just make of these and you'll be fine:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin-foil_hat

Pirschjaeger
01-18-2008, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DKoor:
The best of it all is when some thinks how someone travels across the universe with ultra-superior technology yet on the other hand they can "caught" them (seeing or whatever).
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Better than that, many think the US government is controlling them. They are not allowed to show themselves.

Alien protection program?

Fritz

Lurch1962
01-18-2008, 05:38 PM
Heywoood, et al,
Sorry--I thought you were describing a daytime sighting. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

The black shape you saw would indeed have to be pretty large in angular extent in order to be detected against a dark night sky. As light levels decrease, the resolution of the eye also decreases so that it can continue to work. In effect, the brain "groups together" the faint signals from many of the rods (non-colour detectors) so as to increase signal-to-noise, at the expense of resolution. This also means it becomes very difficult to even perceive basic shapes, let alone anything like fine detail.

Specifically, at the lowest levels of detection of the dark-adapted eye (before the signal is swamped by noise), an object must subtend an angle of about 6 degrees (!) just to be perceived at all. And at that size, forget about being able to assign any shape to it--it would have to be rather larger than that.

Now, under the circumstances you describe, I'm sure the overall illumination levels were brighter, and hence you were able to perceive features at smaller scale. But even so, if the object were seen against a daytime sky, it would have presented *vastly* greater detail.

===================

Regarding the Mexican military "UFO" video... I'd like to have the bigger picture. Man, do I hate it when we are presented video sequences that are just some selections from zoomed-in shots, without context! A wider angle view would be most helpful. My suspicion is that the "lights" might be nothing more than distant streetlights along (or refracted just above) the horizon. The apparent horizontal motion would be due to the movement of the recording aircraft.

=================

How come experienced astronomers (mostly us amateurs) who, in aggregate, spend untold hours looking up, never see UFOs? I'm sure a statistical analysis would be startling. I'd imagine something like this... For every 1,000 hours an astronomer gazes skyward--with NO UFO sighting--the average Joe (and Josephine) who spots a UFO would spend MAYBE one hour looking up from the TV.

--Lurch--

Whirlin_merlin
01-18-2008, 05:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lurch1962:

How come experienced astronomers (mostly us amateurs) who, in aggregate, spend untold hours looking up, never see UFOs? I'm sure a statistical analysis would be startling. I'd imagine something like this... For every 1,000 hours an astronomer gazes skyward--with NO UFO sighting--the average Joe (and Josephine) who spots a UFO would spend MAYBE one hour looking up from the TV.

--Lurch-- </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that is what I call a good point.

heywooood
01-18-2008, 06:26 PM
similar objects as what I saw (http://www.ufoevidence.org/sightings/report.asp?ID=2898)

this report was from the same date Oct 27 2004
during the last partial lunar eclipse...but from the other side of the continent.

this witness reported TWO wedges, or as she says 'chevrons' in the sky...

noting them as grey in color as opposed to the absence of light or color that I remember - my sighting could have been affected by the relative ambient light in the night sky being less than what this person experienced or by a difference in altitude or any number of other factors including the possibility ofcourse that they were completely unrelated.

Reading threads like this or seeing those shows on the cable networks about UFO's always brings the memory back to me in full detail.
I believe that what I saw was most likely military (ours or theirs...but [probably] not foreign to the earth)

on the subject of possible 'visitation' I agree it would be convenient if one of those machines would provide us with a nice clear camera pass some cloudless summer night - where it could be recorded and verified in beautiful high definition for all to see - but as someone once said - they would hardly bother to travel so far to observe or monitor a species or planetary ecosystem only to ruin its natural progression (or regression) by being seen by us.

Suddenly, I am sure - all normal behavior and development would change radically as we struggled to understand our new reality...rushing from paranoia to deification to abject terror/insanity to who knows what.

But to suggest that it isn't happening at all because we can't seem to get such a clear picture is fairly unreasonable also - rural areas - desert areas - visual accounts from ships at sea or civil flights around the world makes perfect sense because being seen is not the problem that being caught would be..at this point. Slowly, slowly reveal yourself to the animal in the wild - do not jump out at him. If there were visitors and their ultimate intent was to become known to us natives, then this would be the way to do it - occasional sightings becoming more frequent over time...books are being written and TV shows produced and movies made that should have the effect of acclimatising and prepping a skittish civilisation for a cautious introduction...

To suddenly appear and change human understanding or lack thereof in a single stroke would be catastrophic (think billions of buttered cats running amok catastrophic) and not very intelligent on 'their' part if there is a them...yes?

I saw what I saw and I know that not too many people really believe me - however - if I could somehow provide clear concise recorded evidence that was as irrefutable as what I saw and how I saw it....well - that would convince a whole lot of people of...errmmm...something.

MB_Avro_UK
01-18-2008, 07:14 PM
Hi all,

I would like to believe in UFOs but where is the evidence?

It takes a leap of faith to go from 'unexplained' lights to visits from another galaxy.

But maybe many desire and seek visitations as a substitute for religion?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

heywooood
01-18-2008, 07:55 PM
you're right - we're all alone in this incredibly vast undiscovered place and in such an enourmous multitude of universes there is only us and our god....sorry buddy - but thats just way too self centered and self absorbed and self important and...insecure...for me.

We are here and they are around and belief in god - while a comfort to some - is an excuse to kill for others....so far there is as much proof of Him as there is of them...and to date - belief in God has proven to be much more lethal to humanity.

roybaty
01-18-2008, 07:59 PM
While I can say it's possible there is life on other worlds, and they could be visiting the Earth, unless an E.T. parks it's craft in front of me, disembarks and shakes my hand I am skeptical. I can also apply this to religion, if Jesus or Mohammed appeared and said "how ya doin'" maybe did a couple miracles I'd be sold.

None of these events have occurred, so I continue to be a cynical agnostic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Pirschjaeger
01-19-2008, 03:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lurch1962:
Regarding the Mexican military "UFO" video... I'd like to have the bigger picture. Man, do I hate it when we are presented video sequences that are just some selections from zoomed-in shots, without context! A wider angle view would be most helpful. My suspicion is that the "lights" might be nothing more than distant streetlights along (or refracted just above) the horizon. The apparent horizontal motion would be due to the movement of the recording aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't see how anyone could take a video like that seriously. This was supposed to be 11+ unidentified a/c in Mexican airspace, yet the Mexican fighter didn't move in for a closer look. I can't understand Spanish but it seems the pilot made no attempts at radio contact.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lurch1962:
How come experienced astronomers (mostly us amateurs) who, in aggregate, spend untold hours looking up, never see UFOs? I'm sure a statistical analysis would be startling. I'd imagine something like this... For every 1,000 hours an astronomer gazes skyward--with NO UFO sighting--the average Joe (and Josephine) who spots a UFO would spend MAYBE one hour looking up from the TV.

--Lurch-- </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you ever noticed astronomers don't were tinfoil hats? The U.S. government is controlling both aliens and astronomers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Blood_Splat
01-19-2008, 10:09 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzgAuR2hpzQ

What about Nuclear Physicist. This guy owns skeptics in debates.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5KfvLqjxx_I

Swivet
01-19-2008, 10:19 AM
Knowing human history and what we are capable of doing to the planet and each other, why would intergalactic beings want to mingle and associate with such earthly riff-raff. First thing our ape-ish minds think of doing is putting things we dont understand in a cage and run harmful tests on it, when in fact this is prolly what these beings are doing with us, like animals http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Badsight-
01-19-2008, 01:00 PM
the thing about the 2000 chibolton crop circles is , that some of them appeared in the opposite fields that were being watched over night & no-one heard anything

http://aycu04.webshots.com/image/40203/2003507494926301443_rs.jpg

Pirschjaeger
01-19-2008, 02:15 PM
I saw a documentary about the crop circles. They followed one of the makers. It was actually quite interesting. He was more nervous of getting caught by other circle makers than land owners.

They do nice work though. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz

buzz999_077
01-19-2008, 02:25 PM
I've seen several questionable things in the skys where I grew up. One was absolutely huge. I was with 2 other guys and it was night with a clear sky. We were under a wooded area and what ever it was covered the sky beyond the trees for at least 100 yards. It had non-blinking lights and made no sound.

The coolest thing we saw was in the late 80's. A disked shaped object about 700ft up was heading right for us. It was night, I went to the car to flash the lights (against the begging protest of my friends). As I flashed the lights, very large lights rotated down from the object and lit up the area as it passed directly overhead. It was then plain to see, it was a B2 bomber with an apparently fun loving crew! lol!

Enforcer572005
01-19-2008, 02:29 PM
Wait till you see some of this stuff. I know what military technology can do flying wise, and we don't hve the capability to go from 0 to mach 5 in a second, make 90% turns without losing energy (even the Lerche and Spitfire in the sim can't do that)and do the odd stuff they do.

If you wade through all the garbage (about 80%) you will see some interesting stuff. Remember that the govt also told the wright Bros that flying was impossible in heavier than air vehicles.

Astronomers see this stuff all the time. Some have even made videos of odd shadows on the moon and other things. The problem is the same as with commercial pilots.....their community has been indoctrinated by govt and society into banishment and criticism of anyone who admits seeing anything religion and politicos don't approve of.

You can't ignore the countless videos that are made by multiple people at the same time in places like Mexico city, Gulf Breeze, Belgium, etc. The excuses and explanations the govt give are more absurd than the hoaxes and people claiming Elvis came out of a UFO and had sex with them.

As for evidence, there is enough evidence to get a conviction in any court anywhere in the world. The evidence standards are a bit much for the skeptics. They aren't gonna do a "the day the earth stood still" scene for anybody. We are goldfish in a bowl compared to technology that can do this.

BTW, the P-51 incident was in the late 40s, and involved a Capt. MAntell, who flew C-47s duringthe war and flew the D-day drop. He took off with a flight from Dobbins AFB in Ga. and they responded to reports from a base in Kentucky that an odd object had been seen. He had no O2 as said, and went to high. It was discovered later on that it was probably a large weather balloon he was chasing and the lack of O2 got to him.

MB_Avro_UK
01-19-2008, 04:34 PM
Hi all,

Here's my experience re UFOs.

I was on a survival exercise in the Royal Navy and it was my turn to keep watch at about 02.00.

I was very tired and was on watch in a field for about 3 hours. After about 30 minutes I noticed that the moon was flying around the sky. It would loop and dive.

I wakened my team to tell them and all of a sudden the Moon stopped moving around.

My team was not happy!

Illusions are very powerful.

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Blood_Splat
01-19-2008, 05:24 PM
I think the public couldn't handle the thought of being visited. Imagine a civilization so advance even before our sun or solar system was formed. I think we make the mistake of saying well getting to here from there is impossible. If you could go back 200 years ago and tell people were going to land on the moon someday they would laugh.

Swivet
01-19-2008, 06:05 PM
I found this site to be amusing but yet interesting (http://www.angelsofmars.it/argomenti/ufovideo.htm)too http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif Scroll all the way down to the videos. Pretty weird stuff to look at when your bored,drunk,tired,stoned or fighting with your old lady http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Airmail109
01-20-2008, 11:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lurch1962:
Regarding the Mexican military "UFO" video... I'd like to have the bigger picture. Man, do I hate it when we are presented video sequences that are just some selections from zoomed-in shots, without context! A wider angle view would be most helpful. My suspicion is that the "lights" might be nothing more than distant streetlights along (or refracted just above) the horizon. The apparent horizontal motion would be due to the movement of the recording aircraft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't see how anyone could take a video like that seriously. This was supposed to be 11+ unidentified a/c in Mexican airspace, yet the Mexican fighter didn't move in for a closer look. I can't understand Spanish but it seems the pilot made no attempts at radio contact.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lurch1962:
How come experienced astronomers (mostly us amateurs) who, in aggregate, spend untold hours looking up, never see UFOs? I'm sure a statistical analysis would be startling. I'd imagine something like this... For every 1,000 hours an astronomer gazes skyward--with NO UFO sighting--the average Joe (and Josephine) who spots a UFO would spend MAYBE one hour looking up from the TV.

--Lurch-- </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you ever noticed astronomers don't were tinfoil hats? The U.S. government is controlling both aliens and astronomers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dude it wasnt even a fighter plane, was an unarmed twin turbo prop surveillance aircraft. 250mph planes dont do intercepts.

SeaFireLIV
01-20-2008, 12:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
you're right - we're all alone in this incredibly vast undiscovered place and in such an enourmous multitude of universes there is only us and our god....sorry buddy - but thats just way too self centered and self absorbed and self important and...insecure...for me.

We are here and they are around and belief in god - while a comfort to some - is an excuse to kill for others....so far there is as much proof of Him as there is of them...and to date - belief in God has proven to be much more lethal to humanity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I get really tired when people blame religion for every bad thing under the sun, when really it`s an excuse to say, "I don`t actually want to do the things that christianity says i should! Like live in peace, don`t do this or that."

I get tired of people who use the bible as a thing to bash when they`ve barely read or understand what it`s really saying. the feminists use the bible as a great anti-man bashing tool too, even though, if they read the bible properly and really saw what it wa saying they`d understand that the last thing it was was a vehicle for men to put one over women.

Anyway, back to the point. Mankind does not need religion to kill eachother or to do many of the bad things that man can do. It`s just one of a thousand convenient excuses for him to do something wrong.

Airmail109
01-20-2008, 12:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
you're right - we're all alone in this incredibly vast undiscovered place and in such an enourmous multitude of universes there is only us and our god....sorry buddy - but thats just way too self centered and self absorbed and self important and...insecure...for me.

We are here and they are around and belief in god - while a comfort to some - is an excuse to kill for others....so far there is as much proof of Him as there is of them...and to date - belief in God has proven to be much more lethal to humanity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I get really tired when people blame religion for every bad thing under the sun, when really it`s an excuse to say, "I don`t actually want to do the things that christianity says i should! Like live in peace, don`t do this or that."

I get tired of people who use the bible as a thing to bash when they`ve barely read or understand what it`s really saying. the feminists use the bible as a great anti-man bashing tool too, even though, if they read the bible properly and really saw what it wa saying they`d understand that the last thing it was was a vehicle for men to put one over women.

Anyway, back to the point. Mankind does not need religion to kill eachother or to do many of the bad things that man can do. It`s just one of a thousand convenient excuses for him to do something wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

O RLY? Peaceful you say?

"From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, and looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths."
2 Kings 2:23-24


"If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity." Deuteronomy 25:11-12

"Then Saul said, "Thus shall you say to David, ˜The king desires no bride-price except a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, that he may be avenged of the king's enemies.'" Now Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines. And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to be the king's son-in-law. Before the time had expired, David arose and went, along with his men, and killed two hundred of the Philistines. And David brought their foreskins, which were given in full number to the king, that he might become the king's son-in-law. And Saul gave him his daughter Michal for a wife." 1 Samuel 18:25-27

buzz999_077
01-20-2008, 12:55 PM
UFO's are real and they do amazing, unexplainable things. The question simply is did humans make them or something else. If aliens are anywhere close to us (by close, I mean close enough to pay us a visit) then I'd be betting they have. Just look at earth from space. It just screams out to be visited and studied. Even without all the radio waves humans have sent, it definitely stands out in the crowd.

foxyboy1964
01-20-2008, 12:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
"From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, and looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths."
2 Kings 2:23-24
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not so much an ASBO, more of an ASBear. But seriously, Seafire mentioned Christianity. Your quotes are from the Old Testament...just saying.

SeaFireLIV
01-20-2008, 01:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aimail101:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:
you're right - we're all alone in this incredibly vast undiscovered place and in such an enourmous multitude of universes there is only us and our god....sorry buddy - but thats just way too self centered and self absorbed and self important and...insecure...for me.

We are here and they are around and belief in god - while a comfort to some - is an excuse to kill for others....so far there is as much proof of Him as there is of them...and to date - belief in God has proven to be much more lethal to humanity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I get really tired when people blame religion for every bad thing under the sun, when really it`s an excuse to say, "I don`t actually want to do the things that christianity says i should! Like live in peace, don`t do this or that."

I get tired of people who use the bible as a thing to bash when they`ve barely read or understand what it`s really saying. the feminists use the bible as a great anti-man bashing tool too, even though, if they read the bible properly and really saw what it wa saying they`d understand that the last thing it was was a vehicle for men to put one over women.

Anyway, back to the point. Mankind does not need religion to kill eachother or to do many of the bad things that man can do. It`s just one of a thousand convenient excuses for him to do something wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

O RLY? Peaceful you say?

"From there Elisha went up to Bethel. As he was walking along the road some youths came out of the town and jeered at him. "Go on up, you baldhead!" they said. "Go on up, you baldhead!" He turned around, and looked at them and called down a curse on them in the name of the Lord. Then two bears came out of the woods and mauled forty-two of the youths."
2 Kings 2:23-24


"If two men, a man and his countryman, are struggling together, and the wife of one comes near to deliver her husband from the hand of the one who is striking him, and puts out her hand and seizes his genitals, then you shall cut off her hand; you shall not show pity." Deuteronomy 25:11-12

"Then Saul said, "Thus shall you say to David, ˜The king desires no bride-price except a hundred foreskins of the Philistines, that he may be avenged of the king's enemies.'" Now Saul thought to make David fall by the hand of the Philistines. And when his servants told David these words, it pleased David well to be the king's son-in-law. Before the time had expired, David arose and went, along with his men, and killed two hundred of the Philistines. And David brought their foreskins, which were given in full number to the king, that he might become the king's son-in-law. And Saul gave him his daughter Michal for a wife." 1 Samuel 18:25-27 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don`t even begin, Aimail101.

This is typical of the lack of understanding of people who pick passages of the bible that SUITS their bias without truly understanding it. Unless you want a full indepth teaching of the meaning, don`t even begin to try and act like you know what the Bible is saying or its meanings.

Plunkertx
01-20-2008, 05:15 PM
I like how people blame Christianity for the world's evils. It's such an easy cop-out!

Thing is, if God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist. Things like rape and torture would be the special of the day and just part of the naturalistic/socio/biological way of life.

Further more, the discovery during this century of the expansion of the universe reveals that far from being eternal, all matter and energy, even physical space and time themselves, came into existence at a point in the finite past before which nothing existed. As Stephen Hawking says in his 1996 book The Nature of Space and Time, "almost everyone now believes that the universe, and time itself, had a beginning at the big bang."

Our discovery of the fine-tuning of the big bang for intelligent life is like someone's trudging through the Gobi Desert and, rounding a sand dune, suddenly being confronted with a skyscraper the size of the Empire State Building. We would rightly dismiss as mad the suggestion that it just happened to come together there by chance. And we would find equally insane the idea that any arrangement of sand particles at that place is improbable and so there is nothing to be explained.

Nothing can come from nothing. And you can forget the world as always having been eternal--a Russian scientist in 2003 already proved the world was and could not be inifinite (Vilenkin). The infinite also does not exist in nature. So, the atheist has a lot more faith to do than the theist.

Carry on now folks. People are not trained observers. If you want something to believe in, then start looking into your own conscience and nature and trying to piece together where the human being came from. Evolution? Try harder...even the top director for the human genome project (yes, the top evolution guy in the world) believes in God. His name is Dr. Francis Collins.

"The moral law cannot be readily explained in terms of evolution because it sometimes calls us to do things that are really quite the opposite of what evolution would ask - like jump into a river to save a drowning stranger. The moral law has been fully set in the heart of only one species - humankind. There's no bigger signpost towards the existence of a personal God." – Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project

My friends, atheism is the most daring of all dogmas, for it is the assertion of a universal negative.

Whirlin_merlin
01-20-2008, 05:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:


Thing is, if God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist. Things like rape and torture would be the special of the day and just part of the naturalistic/socio/biological way of life.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really don't want to get involved in this but got to make apoint.

I have no belief in god but have never commited rape, tortured anyone or been tempted to. Moral values are a human creation, after all look at the variation they show across the world, that doesn't make them less real then something god given.

BTW I agree about not blaming religion, as to me religion is a human invention and therefore any evils commited in it's name are the responsibility of humanity.

Airmail109
01-20-2008, 05:30 PM
Some people falsely believe that it is impossible to prove the unexistence of anything, but they are wrong. It can, for example, be proved that there is no even prime number greater than two. Other people use to say that there is no way to prove if there is a god or not, or even that we cannot get any knowledge of god (agnosticism). My opinion as a strong atheist, is that we can in fact prove that god does not exist in the physical world. This document is my attempt to do so.
Definition of the word "god"

To prove the non-existence of god we first need to define the word "god". When christians talk about god they mean an almighty being. This, I think, is the only god that holds, since it is the only god that can be logically justified.

I think it makes most sense if god is female, because only women can give life. Something that even people in the Stone Age understood. Later when wars affected the cultural evolution, and men took control of society, god became male, but the female god still lives on in the expression "Mother earth". It should also be pointed out that an omnipotent god must be either androgyne or sexless. However, in most religions god is male so I will refer to god as 'he', 'him' etc.

Some people (Einstein for instance) believe in a god who is not a personal god, but a Spinozan kind of god. I claim that this god is not a god! To say that god is universe - by getting knowledge of the universe we get knowledge of god - is to redefine the meaning of the word god. This has nothing to do with the word god as it was defined by the "primitive" cultures which preceded our present civilization. He can be excluded with Occam's razor, and most important: Such a god does not hear prayers.

If god is not omnipotent there is nothing that prevents him from being a product of the universe. If that is the case, what makes god divine? Then god would only be an alien, a being of matter; probably containing flesh, blood and DNA like all life we know of. Everything god is able to do would be things that human beings also will be able to do, all his knowledge would be knowledge we will also achieve. In fact humans would be gods, which should lead to some strange kind of humanism!

Many people justify their faith with god as an explanation. What is the meaning of life? Where does time and space come from? Who created the physical constants? et cetera. Because we lack knowledge of these things - and maybe never will, since they are questions like "what is the color of a second?" or "how does sound taste?" - god is there as an explanation.

Let's say that god is the meaning of life, what then is the meaning of god? If god has a nature, who created that nature? If god created time and space, how can god exist without it? Since creation is an event in time, how could god create time? and who created god? To answer these questions god must be almighty, or else you can't explain them. In fact you can if you say god stands above time and space and so on (which he indeed does if he is almighty), but to be able to prevent god from being tied to future phenomena, you must give him the quality of omnipotence so he can stand above everything.
The qualities of an omnipotent god

If god is almighty there are several qualities he must have. They are as follows:

* He must know everything. Everything that is, everything that has been and everything that will be. To be able to know everything that will be he must know every position and every momentum of every particle in cosmos (Laplace's "World Spirit").
* He must be worth our worship. A being that is not worth worshipping is no god.
* He must be able to do anything. If there are things that god can't do, he certainly is not omnipotent.
* He must be above time. Something that even St. Augustine deduced. But not only that, god must stand above all possible dimensions.
* He cannot be 'good' or 'evil' or, indeed, have any subjective characteristica. If god is all good, he cannot do evil things and cannot be almighty. Most people would object and say that good can do evil but chooses not to do it. Well, if god is all good he can't choose to do evil things, can he?
The theodicé problem

We also have the theodice problem, stated by David Hume:
If the evil in the world is intended by god he is not good. If it violates his intentions he is not almighty. God can't be both almighty and good. There are many objections to this, but none that holds since god is ultimately responsible for the existence of evil. Besides, if only god can create he must have created evil. If somebody else (the devil) created evil, how can one know that god, and not Satan created the universe?

For a good look at the Theodicé problem try The problem of natural evil

Reasons not to believe in god

The ontological evidence against gods

Neccesary a god is a being that is worth worshipping, so if there is no being worth worshipping there cannot be a god.

Not any of the existing religions can provide such a god. How do we know if there are no undiscovered beings worthy our submission? Well if there is a being that has either failed or not tried to communicate with us that being is not worth worshipping either, so the ontological evidence against god holds, even without complete knowledge of the world.

There is a test, based on the ontological evidence against god, that you can do to try the existence of god. Pray, and ask god to provide you with a clear proof for his existence within a week. After that week, if you have got a proof that god exists, send me the evidence. If not, there are only three reasons I can think of that are plausible: (1) God does not exist, (2) God does not want to or (3) God can't give you this evidence. Because of the ontological evidence, alternative (2) and (3) are not worth your worship and thus they equal alternative (1). So if you get no response there is no god.
The meaning of the word existence

What do we mean by existence? The very definition for existence is that a thing is said to exist if it relates in some way to some other thing. That is, things exist in relation to each other. For us, that means that something is part of our system ('The known world'). God is defined to be infinite, in which case it is not possible for there to be anything other than god because "infinite" is all-inclusive. But if there is nothing other than god then either god cannot be said to exist for the reason just explained, or god is the known world, in which case, by definition, god is not a god.
Occam's razor

Occam's razor was formulated by William of Occam (1285-1349) and says: "Non est ponenda pluralites sive necessitate" or in english: "Do not multiply entities unless necessarily". It is a principle for scientific labour which means that one should use a simple explanation with a few explanatory premises before a more complex one.

Let's say that everything must be created, and that was done by an omnipotent god. A god which stands above time, space, moral and existence, which is self containing and in it self has it's own cause. This entity can surely be replaced by the known world. The world stands above time, space, moral, existence, is self containing and in it has it's own meaning. Most theists agree that god has a nature. Then we must raise the question, who created god's nature? If we just accept that god has a nature and exists without a cause, why not say that the known world just is and that the laws of physics are what they are, without a cause?

God is not really an explanation, only a non-explanation. It is impossible to gain information from non-information so God as an explanation is a dead end. When we have said that the reason for something is that 'god did it that way' there is no way to understand it any further. We just shrug our shoulders and accept things as they are. To explain the unknown by god is only to explain how it happened, not why. If we are to investigate the world and build our views of life from the world, we cannot assume a god. Because adding god as an explanation leaves as many, if not more questions than it explains, god has to be removed with Occam's razor if we are serious in investigating the world.
Some things are impossible to do

There are things that are impossible to do. For example nobody can cover a two-dimensional surface with two-dimensional circles, without making them overlap. It is impossible to add the numbers two and two and get 666. You can not go back in time (without passing an infinite entropy barrier). The number of things that are impossible to do are almost infinite. If god were to be almighty he would be able to do them, but it's impossible to do so.

Some people say that he can only do things that are logically possible to do, but what is? Is it logically possible to walk on water? Is it logically possible to rise from the dead? Is it logically possible to stand above time, space and all other dimensions - and still exist? I'd say that everything which violates the laws of physics are logically impossible and thus omnipotence is logically impossible. Besides if omnipotence is a relative quality there is no way to tell omnipotence from non-omnipotence. For omnipotence to be a valid expression it must be absolute, but we have no objective criteria to measure omnipotence so the word itself is useless.
Omnipotence is impossible due to paradoxes

Another way to disprove the almighty god is that omnipotence leads to paradoxes. Can god make a rock that is too heavy for him to carry? Can god build a wall that even he can't tear down?

Also, if god knows everything, he knows what he will do in the "future" (in any dimension, not necessary the time dimension). He must have known that from the very start of his own existence. Thus god's actions are predestined. God is tied by faith, he has no free will. If god has no free will god is not omnipotent. Another way to put it is that to be able to make plans and decisions one must act over time. If god stands above time he can not do that and has no free will. Indeed, if god stands above all dimensions god is dimensionless - a singularity, nothing, void!

Besides there can exist no free wills at all if god is almighty. If you had a free will, god wouldn't know what you would do tomorrow and wouldn't be omnipotent.
The void creator

If everything must have been created, then god must have been created as well. If god is not created, then everything mustn't have a creator, so why should life or cosmos have one?

Besides this argument has another leap. If everything has a source and god is that source, then god must have existed without it before he created it. So if god created time and space, he must live outside of time and space. Thus he is non-existent. If all life must come from something and that is god, god is not alive and hence non-existent. If moral must come from god, god lacks moral. If logic comes from god, god is illogic. If nature comes from god, god is unnatural. If existence comes from god, god is non-existent. If god is the cause of everything, god is void
We would never notice god

This is not an evidence against god, but rather describes the lack of sense in praying to a god who stands above time.

If god stands above time and created time and space he can not be the first link in a time dependent chain of events. Rather he would affect every step in all chains, and we would only see god in the laws of physics (Davies, 1983, chapter 4). This god is an unnecessary entity to describe the world and should be removed with Occam's razor

If somebody would pray to god and god would listen, the laws would change to achieve the desired result. Thus the world would be different and the prayer would never have been said. Besides god would already (in an "above time" sense of view) know that you would pray, and already have changed the world. Prayers would be totally meaningless. We would already live in the best world possible, and any prayer would be to doubt the wisdom of god.

Even worse: For every prayer said, god has not acted, or else the prayer had been undone. This means that the more people have prayed, the more bad things in the world have persisted. Therefore, the more you pray, the more evil persist (provided god exists and stands above time).

A much better way to change the world is to do it yourself. Then you would know that it was you who made the world better. The effect of prayers are not scientific provable, whilst the effect of actions are. Instead of praying you should set to work at improving your situation. This is what humanism is about.
Nobody really believes in god

Schopenhauer once said something like:

"Man can do anything he wants, but he can not want whatever he wants."

My thesis is that people who claim to believe in god do not really do so. They just wish to believe in god. They somehow feel that their lives are meaningless without god, so they choose to close their eyes to evidence against the existence of god. The christian view is well expressed by Ratzinger:

"Religious liberty can not justify freedom for divergence. This freedom does not aim at any freedom relative truth, but concerns the free descicion for a person to, according to his moral inclinations accept the truth." (The times, June 27 1990, p9)

It's as clear as it can be! For a christian you accept the "truth" according to your moral, and then have to be strong in your faith to keep your believes. You decide a priori what to believe and then try to convince yourself and others that it is true. But theists don't really believe, because to believe something is to take it for true, and just like in Nazareth's song Sold my soul there is no sign of god in the world. When you have the evidence for and against something your sub-conscious works on it and makes a conclusion. The process can't be affected by your will, only delayed or suppressed, which will lead to psychoses, and those are far more common among (catholic) priests than any other group..

I have personal experience of this believing what you want to believe. When I was a child I believed in a lot of crazy things. I thought my stuffed animals were intelligent. I believed in Santa Claus. I thought there were monsters under my bed at night. I even believed in god after I heard some of the tales from the old testament. Then I became older and realized that these things weren't true. When I look back I don't understand how I could believe in them, it must have been that I wanted to do so. (Except for the monsters, which had to do with fear of the dark)

When many religious people are confronted with criticism of their religion they convert to atheism or agnosticism. Examples of people who became critical to the dogmas of christianity are Charles Darwin (Darwin, 1958), Dan Barker (Barker, 19??), Ernest Renan plus many former "Catholic modernists" in the 19th century such as Alfred Loisy and Antonio Fogazzaro (Baigenth, Leigh, 1991). The Catholic modernism evolved in the late 19th century and was banned in 1907 by the Vatican (Baigenth, Leigh, 1991). These people are to me clear evidence that an enlightened person will after considering the facts, reject christianity and other religions that contain deities.

Blood_Splat
01-20-2008, 05:39 PM
What is the universe created god and he was like some highly intelligent plasma lol. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

JZG_Thiem
01-20-2008, 05:47 PM
Dont try to mess up things that are not really related to each other.
Science has nothing to do with theism. Scientists (the real/high end ones) dont try to prove or disprove any deity. All they try is to figure HOW the world works, and not WHY. That is and should be left to others.
Science is not about believing into something like religiiousity is, but rather questioning things. Scientist methodology is questioning the theory that someone else (or the same person) just put up. Experiments are done - and lots of them are done - trying to find loopholes or logic errors in a theory by presenting measurement data.
Hence the incompatibility of science with religiousity.

I find it quite interesting tho, that with science unlocking more and more of the mechanisms of how our universe works, a lot of religious people seem to be offended. Mostly (imo) because THEIR (individual) believes are getting *pushed back* more and more with each discovery. It started with *we think the world is a globe*, where some religious people thought the bible stated it was flat. Yet is was *only* their perception/interpretation of what was written.

Trying to use science to prove or disprove any deity if futile. But crying for some deity once we see something we dont understand would have never made us able to invent the wheel or understand the universe as we do in the 21st century.

After all there is room for both: belief in god and deep understanding of our surroundings. They dont exclude each other.

buzzsaw1939
01-20-2008, 05:57 PM
Back to the subject... I can't believe I'm the only one who knows the Mexico incident was proven to be oil derricks in the gulf, burning off gas! you can even see the reflections on the water! thats the best evidence of UFO's?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Airmail109
01-20-2008, 06:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Back to the subject... I can't believe I'm the only one who knows the Mexico incident was proven to be oil derricks in the gulf, burning off gas! you can even see the reflections on the water! thats the best evidence of UFO's?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I heard that theory had been refuted.

buzzsaw1939
01-20-2008, 06:52 PM
Nope... only by the ufo belivers! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Matter of fact, the first time I saw it, it looked like stationary objects low in the background, with clouds moveing between, seen that too many times myself.

Airmail109
01-20-2008, 06:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Nope... only by the ufo belivers! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Heheheh http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Plunkertx
01-20-2008, 07:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Whirlin_merlin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:


Thing is, if God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist. Things like rape and torture would be the special of the day and just part of the naturalistic/socio/biological way of life.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really don't want to get involved in this but got to make apoint.

I have no belief in god but have never commited rape, tortured anyone or been tempted to. Moral values are a human creation, after all look at the variation they show across the world, that doesn't make them less real then something god given.

BTW I agree about not blaming religion, as to me religion is a human invention and therefore any evils commited in it's name are the responsibility of humanity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me ask you a simple question. Is it wrong to torture a child? If so, then why?

Airmail109
01-20-2008, 07:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Whirlin_merlin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:


Thing is, if God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist. Things like rape and torture would be the special of the day and just part of the naturalistic/socio/biological way of life.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really don't want to get involved in this but got to make apoint.

I have no belief in god but have never commited rape, tortured anyone or been tempted to. Moral values are a human creation, after all look at the variation they show across the world, that doesn't make them less real then something god given.

BTW I agree about not blaming religion, as to me religion is a human invention and therefore any evils commited in it's name are the responsibility of humanity. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let me ask you a simple question. Is it wrong to torture a child? If so, then why? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look up Humanism, Causality and Unindented Consequences.

Its wrong from a Human and not a godly standpoint because Children are mostly very innocent. Innocence being very much intertwined with good emotions and idealism. It's also wrong from a survival of the species point of view.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humanism

"Humanism is a broad category of ethical philosophies that affirm the dignity and worth of all people, based on the ability to determine right and wrong by appeal to universal human qualities"”particularly rationality.[1][2] It is a component of a variety of more specific philosophical systems and is incorporated into several religious schools of thought. Humanism entails a commitment to the search for truth and morality through human means in support of human interests. In focusing on the capacity for self-determination, Humanism rejects the validity of transcendental justifications, such as a dependence on belief without reason, the supernatural, or texts of allegedly divine origin. Humanists endorse universal morality based on the commonality of the human condition, suggesting that solutions to human social and cultural problems cannot be parochial."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causality

Causality or causation denotes a directional relationship between one event (called cause) and another event (called effect) which is the consequence (result) of the first.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unintended_consequence

buzzsaw1939
01-20-2008, 07:07 PM
Plunkertx... let me ask you a simple question,
do you understand the rules in this forum, and why?

And if you need to keep this going, then read what Aimail is saying more carfully before it gets locked!

WWSensei
01-20-2008, 07:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Luke5skywalker4:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
Aliens capable of interstellar flight routine enough to visit us often would be so ahead of technologically we would really be little more to them than possible slave labor or food.

It would be akin to a modern day pilot coming across a surviving mammal shortly after the dinosaur killing asteroid hit.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And why not for scientific discovery? I mean you don't do Interstellar travel or Discovery if you don't plan on learning about whatever it is you find. That's like Science Fiction 101, lol. From what you are saying if Humans gained interstellar travel in the future would our first thoughts when seeing another sentient being be, "Oh look, they're technology sucks, lets use them as slaves and then kill them." I think a sentient life form, like a human, would (or rather SHOULD) have more common sense than that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Common sense? For an alien? You are aspiring human emotions/thoughts on other beings. I'm going with the time honored survival instinct. "More Advanced" does not equal "kinder, smarter and benevolent".

As for humans doing so. Absolutely. The more modern civilization in our history has always pretty much not done well to the less advanced culture.

WWSensei
01-20-2008, 07:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blood_Splat:
Well they have been tracked on radar moving at unimaginable speeds. There's been cases of pilots be blown out of the sky while engaging them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Name them. Site the case. UFO's are full of anecdotal stories but to date the amount of real evidence is exactly zero.

WWSensei
01-20-2008, 07:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Copperhead311th:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
Aliens capable of interstellar flight routine enough to visit us often would be so ahead of technologically we would really be little more to them than possible slave labor or food.

It would be akin to a modern day pilot coming across a surviving mammal shortly after the dinosaur killing asteroid hit.

99% of people on this planet have little to no understanding of what is naturally in the sky. Even trained people get things wrong all the time. I've stood in awe as a trained fighter pilot claimed he was watching a UFO when it was, in fact, an F-15 doing routine maneuvers at night with afterburners practicing for an airshow. He was an F-15 pilot himself yet didn't recognize the aircraft. He was an idiot.

Most people don't really comprehend the enormous size of the Universe or even our own galaxy. At our current technological level it would take us millions of years to reach the nearest planets. On a galactic scale we aren't much higher up the food chain than the amoeba. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

your just the person i'm looking for Sensei.
Purely Hypothetical question. As a former Viper driver, can you explain to me the USAF policy as it pertains to our pilots involving these sighting? In other words what are are pilots instructed to do upon visual contact with a craft that they can plainly see and not id. What procedures are they instructed to follow?
We all know the USAF has a plan or procedure in place for such an event.... where a pilot sees a UFO, & can plainly tell it's not of earth origin, so much so that there leaves no doubt as to what he's seeing.

So Hyothetically, if a one of our pilots came across this thing in braod day light, directly in his flight path, with in a range that he can plainy see & id that it is not of this world....what would he be required to do according to USAF policies & proceedures.

Obviously the 1st thing would be to change his shorts, & radio it in.
but after that?????

and how wouldt the brass handel it?

Again this is purely hypotheical. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I also flew air defense where most of my intercepts were Russian Bombers playing "How close can we get to the border?". I did a total of 24 intercepts of which 22 of them were known Russian aircraft. On 2 other occasions I was vectored to anarea by ground control but could neither visually or on my radar pick up anything. That isn't unusual as ground radar can often pick up atmospheric phenomena as a radar contact.

So what would I have done had I seen an unknown aircraft I couldn't ID in broad daylight? Contact the air controller (whether AWACS or ground control) with vector information and whether we were authorized to be weapons free or weapons tight. Until specific orders are given the SOP was to maintain contact and provide intel until further orders or relieved. Upon landing I'm sure I would have been thoroughly debriefed.

Yes, there were procedures in place for such events, however unlikely.

And no, pilots reporting UFOs were not put in insane asylums or ostracized. Perfectly normal things can look really strange when you are dealing with odd lighting or odd viewing angles. I've seen someone claim to see a flying saucer that moved quickly then came to a complete stop and hovered. He thought it was no more than half a mile away. It turned out to be a Cessna 172 that was flying 90 degrees to our flight path so appeared to be moving fast and when it "hovered" it was because it turned directly toward us and it was over 7 miles away. The reflection off the top white wing distorted the view of the aircraft.

I do believe there is life out in the universe. I have no reason to believe they are anything like us and I don't believe they have ever visited us. I do believe if they ever did it would be more like "War of The Worlds" or "Independence Day" rather than "Star Trek".

buzzsaw1939
01-20-2008, 08:35 PM
Sensei.. I belive thats what Steven Hawkins was trying to say, I agree!

I can't help wondering why anytime a ufo is seen, it has to be an alien, if we had never seen a movie or book or anything about aliens, what would be our perception of the unexplained things in our skys, we are finding new things all the time in our seas, what about our atmosphere?

All my years of flying, I never saw anything that couldn't be explained if you looked at it through logic, I used to play games with my passengers, if I saw something that could be a ufo, I would set them up to the point of freaking out, then explain what they where really looking at, I learned a lot about human nature!

I have seen things that can't be identified, but not while flying, I believe they have always been there, theres just more folks looking up now, and I think we would have a better chance finding out what it is, if we could stop thinking alien!

M_Gunz
01-20-2008, 09:16 PM
If Stephen Hawking really thinks that most people believe in anything like the Big Bang then
it's because he travels in academic circles almost exclusively. There are 6 billion people of which I am pretty sure far less than half are educated enough to entertain such thoughts. Not
all of those believe as Hawking does and some will fight over it.

If you look at the POV of light or matter or anything physical, the only place where the
universe becomes as we see it is in the non-physical mind. Unless someone can say where and how
consciousness occurs without relying on faith or belief in what they have not seen? Go ahead,
prove as you would have proven to you.

buzzsaw1939
01-20-2008, 09:48 PM
As usual Gunz.. you lost me! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

If your refering to my mention of Hawkins(Hawking)(your call) I'm refering to his statment that we should be carefull about contacting aliens, it could be disastrous to our species!

Ratsack
01-20-2008, 10:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:
...

Thing is, if God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist. ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Rubbish. You don't need to believe in God to have a sense of right and wrong.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
...the discovery during this century of the expansion of the universe reveals that far from being eternal, all matter and energy, even physical space and time themselves, came into existence at a point in the finite past before which nothing existed... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here you demonstrate the limitations of your thinking. Re read A Brief History of Time, if you actually read it before anyway, and see what Hawking actually said about the nature of the thermodynamic time arrow.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...My friends, atheism is the most daring of all dogmas, for it is the assertion of a universal negative. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, rubbish. The negative is very precise and very clearly defined. It's not up to the atheists to disprove the existence of your particular god. You're the one making the positive claim. You prove it.

cheers,
Ratsack

Von_Rat
01-20-2008, 11:20 PM
i once read a artical called "you cant get there from here".

in a nutshell it said that unless faster than light travel is possiable, ( physics as we know it says it isnt), frequent interstellar travel to out of the way planets, such as earth, is highly unlikely.

from some of these ufo accounts it sounds like earth is a busy intersteller crossroad. considering we are way out on a minor galactic arm, i doubt it.

theres also the proven time dilation effects, which would mean any aliens visiting us would be leaving their home world as they knew it forever. because literlly thousands of years on their planet will have past before they could return.

while its a possibility this wouldnt deter them, it is somthing to take into account. this alone makes me doubt there are frequent visits to earth. it might of happened once or twice in earths long history, but not every freaking week.

if it happened at all, the chances would be pretty good it was long before we homo sapiens emerged.


of course theres the "hidden base in the solar system" theorys. but because of time dilation, any aliens manning it, (alienating it?) would be separated from their home by thousands of years.

possible? yes. likely? who knows.

Whirlin_merlin
01-21-2008, 12:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:

Let me ask you a simple question. Is it wrong to torture a child? If so, then why? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.
Because I'm a sentient being with a theory of mind etc capable of understanding what such an act would be.
Not because I've been told it's wrong and fear divine retribution.

Listen Plunk' I don't want to get into a debate on theology I just took offense to what I percieved as the implication that athiesm is somehow immoral, although that might not have been your intention.

Von_Rat
01-21-2008, 01:13 AM
im a agnostic instead of a athiest. because quite frankly some of the stuff athiests pull pisss me off as much as the religious right.


you know the no, in god we trust, on the money kinda stuff. even though i dont believe in god, sometimes i just want to scream at them to "give it a break already".

Copperhead311th
01-21-2008, 02:50 AM
I have a very limited knowlage of physics.
but when you boil it down, and simplify it it's easliy obsorbed.

Intersteller travel.

When you get into your car and go to work.....
you never drive in a straight line....
But lets say that you lived on a very very long street....lets say it's like 60 miles doen this 1 street in a straight line from you job to your home. Conventionaly we would travel in a straight line from Point A (our Home) to Point B (our work).
But what if we could some how bring Point B to us? And how would we do that? Simple....

Space is a vacume, we all know and understand this principle well enough. But what Quantum Physics tells us is that even empty space has matter, and if an object has matter it has mass, there for making it an object. The way to travel across vast distance through the vacume of space is that you don't travel at all. you bring space to you.

Think of it like this.....

Take a sheet of note book papper (or printer paper) now lay it flat on the desk in from of you.......

Grab the top two corners (left & Right) and brin them don untill they touch the bottm two, essentionaly folding the paper in half.
notice any thing? Try it again. this time left to right. See that? your bringing point a to point be. your bending the fabric of space while warping to the point in space your bringing to you. That is how intergalactic & intersteller space travel will be possible.

Now lets say that there's an obstruction between point a & point b. what happens then?
Simple Point b, is no longer point b but now becomes point C. you go from a, to b, the change course and go to point c. each time folding the fabric of space to get from each waypoint untill you reach you destination.

How this will be achived is beyond my undestatnding....but that's how it will need to be done.
and IF there are inteligent beings vivisting this planet, i'm sure that's how thier doing it. It would sort of explane how "UFO" are able to travel at such a high rate of speed, stop on the dime, change couse and take off again as has been repoorted.

Mathmatically it's plausable. Technologically...we don't have the ability yet to do that. or do we? Does kinda make ya stop and think don't it.I always have found it odd that within the past 100-150 years we've gone from hose & buggy to advance fighter jets, which inthe grand scheme of things is almost over night. Who knows where the next 100 yrs will take us. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mysticpuma2003
01-21-2008, 02:55 AM
17th January, South Western PA video of very odd lights:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c60_1200691856

Quote from the posting

"Jan 17/08.(TEXT FROM SOURCE,FROM MAN WHO FILMED IT)This took place last night in southwestern PA. This is very similar to the San Diego sighting although this was much stranger due to lights blinking.

Notice, in the upper-mid left a strange rapid shooting star effect.

I was shocked and afraid (only complaining about the cold since it was 20 degrees and I was in a t-shirt). I called the police and by the time anyone looked they were gone. No one that I know of saw it, but I got video proof!!!!"

Looks authentic, but I can't begin to explain what he captured!

Cheers, MP.

Pirschjaeger
01-21-2008, 03:15 AM
There are anywhere from millions to trillions of stars in a galaxy. In fact, our galaxy is estemated to have over 200 billion.

There are estimated to be billions of galaxies in the known universe. Interestingly, we still haven't seen the edge of the universe, if there is one.

Billions of galaxies with hundreds of billions of stars each (on average).

To imagine that some people believe life exists only on Earth is harder than imagining to vastness of the known universe. Someone said that Earth would be a great subject for aliens to study. I think not. There are probably so many possible "live" planets that we are nothing special.

Ok, it's pretty easy to assume there is life on other planets somewhere in the universe. But, who says they are so far advanced that they can visit us? And, if they could, they have trillions of other possibilities. Why here? They chances are extremely thin.

Then someone mentioned our radio signals. These mean nothing considering the fact that the signals travel at less than the speed of light. How long have we had radio? Even at 100 light years, how many stars would our signals have reached?

Real space travel wouldn't rely on reaching the speed of light. It would be more about time travel because the speed of light would get you nowhere fast. It's just too damm slow.

Then there's another thing to consider. O2. Oxygen is a very corrosive gas. In fact, it is O2 that might make us a unique form of life among others. Chances are that if an ET visited us he/she/it would have to remain protected against the same stuff that keeps us alive.

So, life, besides us, in the universe? Naturally.

Chances of them finding us? 1 in trillions and that's only if they have the technology.

Chances of them being able to survive in our environment? Very slim.

Real evidence of a UFO? A big fat zero! The best argument is that people make claims all the time. Well, they do the same with gods, angels, and ghosts.

When you stop and think of how people make UFO claims, all the various models, makes, and behaviors, you have to wonder how it is that a species can be so inward focused.

Sometimes it's embarrassing to be human. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
01-21-2008, 03:27 AM
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4ab_1191280814

Can you show me anywhere where this points to being an alien craft? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

"UFO" does not mean "alien space craft".

Fritz

Ratsack
01-21-2008, 06:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:
...Let me ask you a simple question. Is it wrong to torture a child? If so, then why? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What kind of sad skid mark of a human being needs a so called 'holy book' to tell him it's wrong to commit rape, murder or torture?

On the other hand, I don't see a lot of evidence that the existence of religiously-based strictures to the contrary has prevented people from behaving very badly indeed. September 2001 and a handful of Arab boys comes to mind. So do the witch crazes of Europe. So do the current moves by some in current U.S. administration to re-define 'torture' to suit themselves. A lot of them are capital 'C' Christians. I leave it to your imagination to work out what the 'C' stands for.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Ratsack

Von_Rat
01-21-2008, 11:00 AM
actually most of the right or wrong stuff written in various holy books, is just common sense behaviour if you want a community to survive and thrive.

you start murdering, raping, stealing, coveting nieghbors wife etc, in your community, its going to lead to big trouble real fast. thats why religion bans such acts, it really has nothing to do with so called morality and everything to do with requiring the type of behaviour that a community needs to keep from falling apart.

morality is really just common sense.

Plunkertx
01-21-2008, 11:39 AM
If this thread gets locked, then so be it.

As a result of socio-biological pressures, there has evolved among humans a sort of "herd morality" which functions in our species in the struggle for survival. But there does not seem to be anything about homo sapiens that makes this morality objectively true. I AM NOT SAYING that we must believe in God in order to live moral lives. Atheists and theists do live moral lives, that's a fact, but some action, say, incest, may not be biologically or socially advantageous and so in the course of human evolution has become taboo; but there is on the atheistic view nothing really wrong about committing incest. Moreover, if atheism is true, there is no moral accountability for one's actions. Even if there were objective moral values and duties under naturalism, they are irrelevant because there is no moral accountability. As I said before, if life ends at the grave, it makes no difference whether one lives as a Stalin or as a saint. If there is no immortality, then all things are permitted. Examples of this in action? Communists torturers in Soviet prisons:

"The cruelty of atheism is hard to believe when man has no faith in the reward of good or the punishment of evil. There is no reason to be human. There is no restraint from the depths of evil which is in man. The Communist torturers often said, ˜There is no God, no hereafter, no punishment for evil. We can do what we wish.' I have heard one torturer even say, ˜I thank God, in whom I don't believe, that I have lived to this hour when I can express all the evil in my heart.' He expressed it in unbelievable brutality and torture inflected on prisoners." ~ Richard Wurmbrand, Tortured, p. 34.

Acts of self sacrifice become particularly unnecessary on a naturalistic world view. Why should you sacrifice your self interest and especially your life for the sake of someone else? There can be no good reason for adopting such a self-negating course of action on the aetheistic world view. A mother rushing into a burning house to rescue her children or a soldier throwing his body over a hand grenade to save his comrades does nothing more significant or praiseworthy, morally speaking, than a fighter ant which sacrifices itself for the sake of the ant hill.

If God exists, there is a sound foundation for morality. For example, if we do think that objective moral values exist, then we shall be led logically to the conclusion that God exists. And could anything be more obvious than that objective moral values do exist?

Whirlin_merlin
01-21-2008, 12:00 PM
My dear Plunky we may be the product of natural selection like all life on earth but we are unique in our capacity for self awareness (thanks to said natural selection).
Morality may not be 'objective' as you put it, which I think means externally applied in your usage.
It seems to me that self awareness leads to other awareness which naturally leads to compassion when mixed with a little imagination.
I fail to see how a self generated 'non-objective' morality is such a bad thing.
After is not 'I don't do bad things as I understand how this would affect others and can sympathise with how they would feel, so it's wrong.' far superior to 'I don't do bad things because god said it is wrong and I'll burn for eternity if I'm bad.'

Of course it would all be much neater and easier if god did exist but this alone wont bring him into existance.

Whirlin_merlin
01-21-2008, 12:14 PM
Going to stop posting in this thread as we've gone way OT.

Plunkertx PM if you wish to continue. Otherwise I can agree to disagree.

pogobbler
01-21-2008, 12:22 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Lurch1962:

How come experienced astronomers (mostly us amateurs) who, in aggregate, spend untold hours looking up, never see UFOs? I'm sure a statistical analysis would be startling. I'd imagine something like this... For every 1,000 hours an astronomer gazes skyward--with NO UFO sighting--the average Joe (and Josephine) who spots a UFO would spend MAYBE one hour looking up from the TV.

--Lurch--



Now that is what I call a good point.


As an amateur astronomer myself, I've probably spent thousands of hours looking at the night sky and haven't come across anything inexplicable in all that time. The usual "suspects" that fool some people are things such as aircraft, meteors, satellites, planets and bright stars (which, when near the horizon can appear to be flashing in multiple colors and can seem to be following you if you're, say, driving a car), and clouds (which in very dark skies can appear as moving dark patches in the sky, obscuring the stars behind them). No reasonably experienced amateur astronomer I know has seen anything they couldn't identify-- I'm not saying that none ever have, just none that I know. I have had a few instances where someone inexperienced was observing with me and they've pointed out something as a UFO but I've been able to quickly and easily explain what it actually was. Without me there, they'd have had a genuine UFO experience. Aren't I a killjoy? :-)

WWSensei
01-21-2008, 12:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mysticpuma2003:
17th January, South Western PA video of very odd lights:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c60_1200691856

Quote from the posting

"Jan 17/08.(TEXT FROM SOURCE,FROM MAN WHO FILMED IT)This took place last night in southwestern PA. This is very similar to the San Diego sighting although this was much stranger due to lights blinking.

Notice, in the upper-mid left a strange rapid shooting star effect.

I was shocked and afraid (only complaining about the cold since it was 20 degrees and I was in a t-shirt). I called the police and by the time anyone looked they were gone. No one that I know of saw it, but I got video proof!!!!"

Looks authentic, but I can't begin to explain what he captured!

Cheers, MP. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Watched the film. It's a film of disconnected lights with nothing, and I mean nothing, to give a frame of reference. It could just be stars with clouds going in front of them or someone's Christmas lights from miles away. There is no way to know. On an evidence scale of 1-10 with 10 being an alien craft landing on the front lawn of the UN and planting a flag in the ground claiming the Earht as the sole property of the Vorgon Empire I give this a -5.

It shows absolutely zilch.

Von_Rat
01-21-2008, 12:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:
If this thread gets locked, then so be it.

As a result of socio-biological pressures, there has evolved among humans a sort of "herd morality" which functions in our species in the struggle for survival. But there does not seem to be anything about homo sapiens that makes this morality objectively true. I AM NOT SAYING that we must believe in God in order to live moral lives. Atheists and theists do live moral lives, that's a fact, but some action, say, incest, may not be biologically or socially advantageous and so in the course of human evolution has become taboo; but there is on the atheistic view nothing really wrong about committing incest. Moreover, if atheism is true, there is no moral accountability for one's actions. Even if there were objective moral values and duties under naturalism, they are irrelevant because there is no moral accountability. As I said before, if life ends at the grave, it makes no difference whether one lives as a Stalin or as a saint. If there is no immortality, then all things are permitted. Examples of this in action? Communists torturers in Soviet prisons:

"The cruelty of atheism is hard to believe when man has no faith in the reward of good or the punishment of evil. There is no reason to be human. There is no restraint from the depths of evil which is in man. The Communist torturers often said, ˜There is no God, no hereafter, no punishment for evil. We can do what we wish.' I have heard one torturer even say, ˜I thank God, in whom I don't believe, that I have lived to this hour when I can express all the evil in my heart.' He expressed it in unbelievable brutality and torture inflected on prisoners." ~ Richard Wurmbrand, Tortured, p. 34.

Acts of self sacrifice become particularly unnecessary on a naturalistic world view. Why should you sacrifice your self interest and especially your life for the sake of someone else? There can be no good reason for adopting such a self-negating course of action on the aetheistic world view. A mother rushing into a burning house to rescue her children or a soldier throwing his body over a hand grenade to save his comrades does nothing more significant or praiseworthy, morally speaking, than a fighter ant which sacrifices itself for the sake of the ant hill.

If God exists, there is a sound foundation for morality. For example, if we do think that objective moral values exist, then we shall be led logically to the conclusion that God exists. And could anything be more obvious than that objective moral values do exist? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



1. theres dam good biologcal reasons not to permit incest. even primitive people are aware of this. its not good for the communitys survival so it gets banned.

2. there may not always be personally accountability for ones actions, but as i stated above, if a community permits those so called immoral actions it will disrupt that community. so theres social pressure to ban such acts, for the good of the community. the accountability springs from the community, not from god. god is just a effective way of packaging it.

3. self sacrefice in the case of the mother and child is simply biological and theres plenty of aniamal mothers who will also fearlessly defend their offspring.

as for others who sacrefice themselves for the group, well that has to do with human group dynamics, which is rather complex to explain.



its alot easier if you think of these concepts in terms of early societies and what they had to do to ensure their survival as a community.
also religious leaders of a community are usually non productive . thus they rely on the stability of the community that supports them. so of course they are going to ban acts that will destabilise that community.

Plunkertx
01-21-2008, 01:54 PM
Hi, I agree, this thread has gone waaaaaay off, sorry about that. I just wanted to get something in here before I leave it forever.

If naturalism is true, it becomes impossible to condemn war, oppression, or crime as evil. Nor can one praise brotherhood, equality, or love as good. It does not matter what values you choose"”for there is no right and wrong; good and evil do not exist. That means that an atrocity like the Holocaust was really morally indifferent. You may think that it was wrong, but your opinion has no more validity than that of the Nazi war criminal who thought it was good.

The fact is that we do apprehend objective values, and we all know it. Actions like rape, torture, child abuse, and brutality are not just socially unacceptable behavior"”they are moral abominations. By the same token, love, generosity, equality, and self-sacrifice are really good. Thus, the existence of objective moral values serves to demonstrate the evidence for a supernatural being.

WHen people ask me why I am a Christian, I tell them that it is because it's the most plausible faith (vs atheism). When you take into account objective moral values, the plausibility of the universe being created (from nothing, nothing comes--thefore, something created it), the super fine-tuning of the universe and the resurrection of Jesus Christ (95% of New Testament scholars agree the resurrection happened based on historical research. ), among other things, is much more plausible than anything that atheism has to offer.

The burden of proof, my friends, is on the atheist--for it takes as much, if not more faith, than the theist.

ill end it here.

Pirschjaeger
01-21-2008, 02:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:
......but there is on the atheistic view nothing really wrong about committing incest. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Incredible. It's hard to find the words to reply to such an ignorant, prejudistic, and discriminating statement. Have you studied the history of the RCC? If you are into immoral sexual practices, this is one place you should start.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:
"The cruelty of atheism is hard to believe when man has no faith in the reward of good or the punishment of evil. There is no reason to be human. There is no restraint from the depths of evil which is in man..... ~ Richard Wurmbrand, Tortured, p. 34. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've heard this argument before. As an atheist, I am responsible for my actions in the here and now. When I screw-up, I cannot say a prayer to any gods or any ghosts. I did it, I am responsible. My conscience will punish me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:
Acts of self sacrifice become particularly unnecessary on a naturalistic world view. Why should you sacrifice your self interest and especially your life for the sake of someone else? There can be no good reason for adopting such a self-negating course of action on the aetheistic world view. A mother rushing into a burning house to rescue her children or a soldier throwing his body over a hand grenade to save his comrades does nothing more significant or praiseworthy, morally speaking, than a fighter ant which sacrifices itself for the sake of the ant hill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong again. Try reading some history, outside organized religious influences. You'll find that the pre-Christian (Pagans) often gave their lives in battle; and it wasn't for just a hill. On a few occasions, I have put my life in jeapardy for the defense or safety of others. It is normal human nature, nothing special.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:
If God exists, there is a sound foundation for morality. For example, if we do think that objective moral values exist, then we shall be led logically to the conclusion that God exists. And could anything be more obvious than that objective moral values do exist? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When man created god, "morals" was already old news. How could man have been living in communities and societies for hundreds of thousands of years without morals? Morals are actually instinctual as they are part of a species survival. Ask a zoologist if animals have morals.

If god existed he/she/it would undoubtedly have morals. Defending the weak is a moral isn't it? Millions have died in the name of god and not once has he/she/it stepped in to help those in need.

Since the "god" doesn't have morals, he/she/it can't exist then, can it?

Dude, I don't need faith when I have the balls to face reality.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
01-21-2008, 02:18 PM
Who wants to host a this in PTs?

Count me in.

Fritz

MEGILE
01-21-2008, 02:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:


Thing is, if God does not exist, then objective moral values do not exist. Things like rape and torture would be the special of the day and just part of the naturalistic/socio/biological way of life. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

False dichotomy, to the degree of absurdity.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:

Nothing can come from nothing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The theistic view is (generally) that God clicked his fingers and we appeared.. sounds like something from nothing to me.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Evolution? Try harder...even the top director for the human genome project (yes, the top evolution guy in the world) believes in God. His name is Dr. Francis Collins. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many theists still believe in evolution, and somehow reconcile their beliefs with the (fact) theory of evolution.
My favourite educator, Ken Miller is an evolutionist and Catholic (God knows why http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">"The moral law cannot be readily explained in terms of evolution because it sometimes calls us to do things that are really quite the opposite of what evolution would ask - like jump into a river to save a drowning stranger. The moral law has been fully set in the heart of only one species - humankind. There's no bigger signpost towards the existence of a personal God." – Dr. Francis Collins, director of the Human Genome Project </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Two books for you. The Selfish Gene, and The extended phenotype by Richard Dawkins.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Our discovery of the fine-tuning of the big bang for intelligent life is like someone's trudging through the Gobi Desert and, rounding a sand dune, suddenly being confronted with a skyscraper the size of the Empire State Building </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I persume you are inferring that the development of life could not form randomly? Interestingly Darwinists (myself included) would agree.
Natural selection is the OPPOSITE of random

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Communists torturers in Soviet prisons </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fascinating, and the inquistion tortured people.
THis kind of argument is again absurd, because it only establishes that Religious and Non religious people BOTH commit violence. What a revelation...

Von_Rat
01-21-2008, 02:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If naturalism is true, it becomes impossible to condemn war, oppression, or crime as evil.. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

evil is just a social construct.

MEGILE
01-21-2008, 02:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:

WHen people ask me why I am a Christian, I tell them that it is because it's the most plausible faith (vs atheism). When you take into account objective moral values, the plausibility of the universe being created (from nothing, nothing comes--thefore, something created it), the super fine-tuning of the universe and the resurrection of Jesus Christ (95% of New Testament scholars agree the resurrection happened based on historical research. ), among other things, is much more plausible than anything that atheism has to offer.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps then you should 'objectively' investigate Christianity.. the arbitrary nature of how the bible was put together is simply a reflection of the entire faith.
The books of Leviticus and Judges are most enlightning.

Von_Rat
01-21-2008, 02:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Actions like rape, torture, child abuse, and brutality are not just socially unacceptable behavior"”they are moral abominations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


they are moral abominations only because they are socially unacceptable, and with good reason. if they werent thought of as abominations and they were allowed, they would quickly destroy a community.

Whirlin_merlin
01-21-2008, 03:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Who wants to host a this in PTs?

Count me in.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm willing.

PM me if interested.
Then tomorrow I can set it up.
ALthough if we do can we keep it civil.

WTE_Googly
01-21-2008, 03:39 PM
I would second the request for a private thread, I too would be a starter to be included.

Back on topic

It is a good possibility that many of the 'sightings' are natural phenomena. We often kid ourselves that we as a people know everything about our atmosphere. We don't. Science has only been allowed to flourish for maybe a couple of hundred years, we are still don't understand everything.

crucislancer
01-21-2008, 03:41 PM
Wow.

I'm amazed and amused that this little thread, however off topic it might be, has lasted this long.

But, that happens when folks start talking about religion.

Oh, well. Carry on if you wish.

Pirschjaeger
01-21-2008, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Whirlin_merlin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Who wants to host a this in PTs?

Count me in.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm willing.

PM me if interested.
Then tomorrow I can set it up.
ALthough if we do can we keep it civil. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I once hosted a similar topic. There were 34 participants from many different beliefs. It went to over 1,000 posts before Ubi's server dumped about a month of posts (ca30%). It stayed very peaceful and we all learnt a lot.

People don't flame in PTs since the audience is much smaller.

Fritz

Ratsack
01-21-2008, 04:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Whirlin_merlin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Who wants to host a this in PTs?

Count me in.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm willing.

PM me if interested.
Then tomorrow I can set it up.
ALthough if we do can we keep it civil. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I once hosted a similar topic. There were 34 participants from many different beliefs. It went to over 1,000 posts before Ubi's server dumped about a month of posts (ca30%). It stayed very peaceful and we all learnt a lot.

People don't flame in PTs since the audience is much smaller.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd be in.

Ratsack

buzzsaw1939
01-21-2008, 04:45 PM
I wish I had the time, I would too!

You guys have my respect, you give hope!

M_Gunz
01-21-2008, 05:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
There are anywhere from millions to trillions of stars in a galaxy. In fact, our galaxy is estemated to have over 200 billion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Get up on a high mountain away from any town or city at night and have a good look at the
Milky Way. 200 billion might be a low-ball estimate.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">There are estimated to be billions of galaxies in the known universe. Interestingly, we still haven't seen the edge of the universe, if there is one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are no edges, hard as that may be to grasp. At every point the whole thing is always
getting larger at *what seems to be* faster than light speed "If" the main thinking is right
which requires a few 'reasonable' assumptions.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Billions of galaxies with hundreds of billions of stars each (on average).

To imagine that some people believe life exists only on Earth is harder than imagining to vastness of the known universe. Someone said that Earth would be a great subject for aliens to study. I think not. There are probably so many possible "live" planets that we are nothing special. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Each one needs a lot of chance happenings. If the planet had not been struck by large rocks
every so often with almost all life wiped out every time changing natural selection and
removing competition as well as resources then there would still be very little life here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ok, it's pretty easy to assume there is life on other planets somewhere in the universe. But, who says they are so far advanced that they can visit us? And, if they could, they have trillions of other possibilities. Why here? They chances are extremely thin. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try digging up old issues of Analog and Asimov. You get respected PhD's putting numbers to
all of this.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Then someone mentioned our radio signals. These mean nothing considering the fact that the signals travel at less than the speed of light. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm... -cough-... no. Radio is electromagnetic waves the same as light. Same speed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> How long have we had radio? Even at 100 light years, how many stars would our signals have reached? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have to ask how far the signals would be findable and not too weak to be background noise.
That would also depend on the alien equipment that would pick it up. It would also depend on
the frequencies transmitted since there are gaps in natural sources of E-M waves, we know
because you tune to them and it's quiet. Some bands are absorbed by interstellar gas and
blocked by interstellar dust.
Still you have the very bright guys saying that Earth does radiate brightly in unnatural
frequency bands.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Real space travel wouldn't rely on reaching the speed of light. It would be more about time travel because the speed of light would get you nowhere fast. It's just too damm slow. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are a few good candidate stars within 20-25 LY of Earth, not as places with intelligent
life but places where life might be supportable at all.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Then there's another thing to consider. O2. Oxygen is a very corrosive gas. In fact, it is O2 that might make us a unique form of life among others. Chances are that if an ET visited us he/she/it would have to remain protected against the same stuff that keeps us alive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Learn more biology perhaps? We need the highly corrosive gas to live at more than the level
of anaerobic bacteria like lager yeast. So would any intelligent aliens. The gas would have
to be compatible with the lighter life-atoms and have just the right hold and break apart
energies. It needs to be compatible with water. Sure people like to propose alternate ways
but when they get much beyond "well X is like oxygen" and try working X along with carbon
bonding and nitrogen hybrid bonds crucial to life is when they find biochemistry is far deeper
than they thought. Maybe there's enough analogues to cover it all in a methane atmosphere
but 3 out of 20+ needed don't make it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So, life, besides us, in the universe? Naturally.

Chances of them finding us? 1 in trillions and that's only if they have the technology. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Considering that the advanced aliens might survive in such a state for 10 million years then
it still has to be in the same window of time as another close enough to contact. There could
be one big party going on in Andromeda and we would never know.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Chances of them being able to survive in our environment? Very slim. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Interstellar aliens unable to survive on Earth? You mean without protection that they would
have just to get here? What difference does that make? H G Wells had stupid Martians die
from bacteria but then you don't crack the seals, take that big breath and say "Mmmmm, the
air is breathable!" as that's Hollyweird style bad science.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Real evidence of a UFO? A big fat zero! The best argument is that people make claims all the time. Well, they do the same with gods, angels, and ghosts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And Scientologists. The ones that get to the top are "operating" aliens. But that's just a
scam to get people to do anything it takes to pour money into the hands of the scammers.
And I do mean -anything-. First thing they do is relieve new members of any morals except
to fool the world and pay up for that next big level, on your way to alien-hood.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When you stop and think of how people make UFO claims, all the various models, makes, and behaviors, you have to wonder how it is that a species can be so inward focused.

Sometimes it's embarrassing to be human. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes? Or just sometimes not?

I am far happier with the UFO loonies than the terrorists and warmongers game going on.
A third of the world goes to bed hungry, a bunch of them die and yet enough babies are born
to keep the starving and beaten populations growing even as conditions worsen.

Yeah, sometimes it's embarrassing because who can think of such things when they don't have
the power to make it stop?

M_Gunz
01-21-2008, 05:50 PM
I can highly recommend a book named "The Science of Discworld" by Terry Pratchett.
He doesn't cover everything but he does cover a lot from the POV of a learner.

WWSensei
01-21-2008, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Googly:
I would second the request for a private thread, I too would be a starter to be included.

Back on topic

It is a good possibility that many of the 'sightings' are natural phenomena. We often kid ourselves that we as a people know everything about our atmosphere. We don't. Science has only been allowed to flourish for maybe a couple of hundred years, we are still don't understand everything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not only do we not know everything about our atmosphere I'd go so far as to say we don't understand MOST of what goes on in our atmosphere. If you ascribed to the concept that our weather patterns are governed by non-linaer differential equations (as a large number of scientists do) then we CAN'T learn everything because it changes too much.

Copperhead311th
01-21-2008, 08:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WTE_Googly:
I would second the request for a private thread, I too would be a starter to be included.

Back on topic

It is a good possibility that many of the 'sightings' are natural phenomena. We often kid ourselves that we as a people know everything about our atmosphere. We don't. Science has only been allowed to flourish for maybe a couple of hundred years, we are still don't understand everything. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not only do we not know everything about our atmosphere I'd go so far as to say we don't understand MOST of what goes on in our atmosphere. If you ascribed to the concept that our weather patterns are governed by non-linaer differential equations (as a large number of scientists do) then we CAN'T learn everything because it changes too much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

exactly, which is why we need more studies of our OWN planet before we go nosing in someone elses back yard. That's if there's enough time left. Considering that acording the Soix Medicine Man Chief Black Elk, the Merlin Prophocies, the Miyan Calender, and the Revalations, and the Web Bot Prodject all predict the destruction of life as we know it in the year 2012. December 21st to be precice. So if there's Aleins out there, they better huury the hell up or we won't be here when they get here.
FYI the earth is supposed to rotate it's axis in 2012, and the cataclysmic results will effectivley be the end of life as we know it. Native American tribes call this the birth of the 5th world. We're nearing the end of the 4th now.
Not that i really belive that....but it's just as far out there as UFO's. yet still very plauseble. Ppl often forget the fragile grasp we humans hold over our own existance. not everything is within our total control.

Lurch1962
01-21-2008, 10:10 PM
[Quote}Space is a vacume, we all know and understand this principle well enough. But what Quantum Physics tells us is that even empty space has matter, {/Quote]

Quantum physics need not be invoked at all. Observational evidence tells us that space is not a vaccuum. While the amount of gas and dust varies from place to place by some 6-8 orders of magnitude (factors of 1 million to 100 million), in our little corner of the Galaxy the *average* interstellar content is about 1 atom per cubic cm. In intergalactic space it's 0.1 atom per cubic cm, or even less. So even though the interstellar density is a good 10^-19 of that of the air you're now breathing, there's still stuff "out there."

buzzsaw1939
01-22-2008, 05:46 AM
last time I heard, we still don't know exactly was causes lighting, oh we know what it is, and how it works, just not what cauess it, now thier studying sprites and jets in the upper atmosphere, and it wasn't that long ago they discoverd that!

Pirschjaeger
01-22-2008, 07:21 AM
Let's not forget the dark matter, the stuff we can't see yet. We know it's there because it blocks and influences light. Then there are the clouds of gases, some bigger than galaxies. I don't think there's as much "space" as we imagine.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
01-22-2008, 07:39 AM
M-Gunz,

there is no law of physics or even common sense the says life must have O2 in order to survive. This is a limit put on life as "we" know it.

In order for many cells, including our own, to survive they need the symbiotic relationship with mitochondria. At one time cells didn't have mitochondria. But mitochondria evolved due to O2 levels. The relationship between cells and mitochondria developed due to raising O2 levels. This is and always have been life that doesn't require O2.

O2 is not a requirement for life. Life on Earth has evolved to survive on O2.

It's also interesting to know that the free radicals that cause aging and eventual cellular failure is actually waste produced by the process of turning O2 into energy by the mitochondria.

Fritz

WWSensei
01-22-2008, 08:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Let's not forget the dark matter, the stuff we can't see yet. We know it's there because it blocks and influences light. Then there are the clouds of gases, some bigger than galaxies. I don't think there's as much "space" as we imagine.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually no. Dark matter exists for about the same reason our ancestors claimed the gods made the sun rise and mountains quake--because it's a convenient explanation for something we don't understand. There is an equally viable alternative theory to dark matter. Simplistically put, the counter theory states that if we only slightly change our theory of how gravity works you can account for the effects we observe without needing this magical "dark matter" that no one has even seen, ever detected, can't explain what it is, yet it's supposed to make up 70+% of the universe? Has to be that because we understand gravity so well right?

zodwik
01-22-2008, 11:34 AM
I have to say, I'm glad that someone else saw this thing in Texas because I saw something very strange right near Stephenville tx...about 20 miles east one night 4 years ago. All I know for sure is it was not an airplane or helicopter..or anything else that would be considered "normal" .. I beleive this guy 100 percent.

buzzsaw1939
01-22-2008, 02:11 PM
Normal is a very open ended word, who decides what is normal? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Pirschjaeger
01-22-2008, 02:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Let's not forget the dark matter, the stuff we can't see yet. We know it's there because it blocks and influences light. Then there are the clouds of gases, some bigger than galaxies. I don't think there's as much "space" as we imagine.

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually no. Dark matter exists for about the same reason our ancestors claimed the gods made the sun rise and mountains quake--because it's a convenient explanation for something we don't understand. There is an equally viable alternative theory to dark matter. Simplistically put, the counter theory states that if we only slightly change our theory of how gravity works you can account for the effects we observe without needing this magical "dark matter" that no one has even seen, ever detected, can't explain what it is, yet it's supposed to make up 70+% of the universe? Has to be that because we understand gravity so well right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It seems you are contradicting yourself. Religion is all about adjusting theories. You said that by changing a theory you can contradict the original theory. Doesn't this apply to all theories?

But I do get part of your point. I should have typed "suspect" rather than "know".

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
01-22-2008, 02:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Normal is a very open ended word, who decides what is normal? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I forget his name but he's normally subjective. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I too have seen abnormal things but although I can't formulate an explanation, I see no reason to formulate a story.

I'd be jumping for joy if a UFO landed and aliens jumped out to greet us. But after so many years and hundreds of thousand's of claims, I've yet to see anything that remotely suggests an ET with a spaceship,....or vice-versa.

Show me the money!

Fritz

buzzsaw1939
01-22-2008, 02:56 PM
There ya go! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Lurch1962
01-23-2008, 05:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Let's not forget the dark matter, the stuff we can't see yet. We know it's there because it blocks and influences light. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The so-called "dark matter" has been invoked because the motions of stars and galaxies can't be explained by ALL baryonic matter that we can currently detect. Dark matter is as yet completely undetectable, and to our knowledge does not block light, but rather bends space-time due to its mass. Just what dark matter is remains to be seen.

The only dark stuff out in space which will block light is the dust content in interstellar clouds.

MB_Avro_UK
01-23-2008, 06:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Normal is a very open ended word, who decides what is normal? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I forget his name but he's normally subjective. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I too have seen abnormal things but although I can't formulate an explanation, I see no reason to formulate a story.

I'd be jumping for joy if a UFO landed and aliens jumped out to greet us. But after so many years and hundreds of thousand's of claims, I've yet to see anything that remotely suggests an ET with a spaceship,....or vice-versa.

Show me the money!

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Same here Fritz!

Do we desire to see aliens? Has this desire taken the place of religion for many people?

Most 'sightings' have taken place since the 1940s. After more than 60 years of 'sightings' why is there no evidential proof?

I'm not interested in theories but empirical facts.There are no Government conspiracies to 'cover up' the facts.There are those that say that because there is no 'cover up' it indicates a conspiracy. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

There's nothing I've seen on the web that convinces me regarding alien evidence.

But if you WANT to believe then its all out there for your validation.

ooops...I'm just now being abducted into a mother ship...the light is sooo bright...


Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Swivet
01-23-2008, 07:43 PM
Now i just saw that military jets are the ones responsible for this "ufo (http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/popup/?rn=3906861&cl=6059924&ch=4226713&src=news)" According to this clip. The govt will do anything to confuse,lie, and bs the public...I first heard that fighter jets were seen chasing this thing.So i am guessing the govt is up to something as usual. Testing some new technology...Who the F knows http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

buzzsaw1939
01-23-2008, 09:47 PM
MB... Don't forget to protect your privates while your in there! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

heywooood
01-23-2008, 10:33 PM
the military has now claimed to be responsible for the sightings on one of the evenings cited...but several witnesses claim multiple sightings over several dates - one witness is a pilot and claims to have infact seen military planes apparently persuing a UFO on the evening that the military is claiming to have overflown the area..

could it have been an escort? or a test flight with chase planes recording the prototype of a new SR type?

Why would the military suddenly change their story after insisting over and over that they were not in the area?

It is curious -

The machine I witnessed those few years ago should have had a sonic ripple following it - not just a single boom - it was traveling that fast...but there was no sound at all.

The witness who is also a pilot indicated that for him the strangest thing about the machine he saw was the absence of any noise or sound emmanation at all - not even the sound of its passage through the air...nothing.

how strange to see an object of that proportion hanging, floating, flying or flashing through the night sky without so much as a whisper..

our flintstone machines require a big ol' coal burning, fire breathing, screaming heller of a noisemaker stuffed in the middle of an atmosphere ripping, heat blistering configuration of a brick by comparison...we are infants of flight - and like every child, we think we know it all and there can't possibly be anything better...after all.....

We're homo sapiens and we're all there is in the known universe and we're the Schnizzle http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gifriiight

and MB - if god created the heaven and the earth and all that lies in between, then he would have created them as well, yes?

or is that the fundamental problem for all you organised religion fans? you say god created this vast empty space and on the one grain of sand swirling about the one atom in the one corner of the one solar system in that one universe amongst countless billions of others - he put lil' ol' us - created in his image...the only sentient beings - (unless you count certain primates, elephants, whales and other 'lower' animals that have exibited self-awareness and communication skills) that also inhabit this grain of sand (or salt) with us?

Oh - I think some people need to believe this in the worst way as madness is such a subtle step from reality.

FWIW I do believe in god - just not religion...religions are a human device and therfore biased and corrupt, segregated and prejudicial all in the name of god.

so while I believe in the creation, I don't think we are alone in an empty house

WWSensei
01-23-2008, 11:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:

Actually no. Dark matter exists for about the same reason our ancestors claimed the gods made the sun rise and mountains quake--because it's a convenient explanation for something we don't understand. There is an equally viable alternative theory to dark matter. Simplistically put, the counter theory states that if we only slightly change our theory of how gravity works you can account for the effects we observe without needing this magical "dark matter" that no one has even seen, ever detected, can't explain what it is, yet it's supposed to make up 70+% of the universe? Has to be that because we understand gravity so well right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
It seems you are contradicting yourself. Religion is all about adjusting theories. You said that by changing a theory you can contradict the original theory. Doesn't this apply to all theories?

But I do get part of your point. I should have typed "suspect" rather than "know".

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Contradictory? Not really. Unclear, yes. What I meant is that the whole theory of "dark matter" is often stated as fact when it is nothing of the sort. It's a theory based on odd behavior observed and has never been proven, seen, captured.

I was trying to point out that there is a competing theory that with some new ideas proposing that gravity may behave differently on the large scale versus the small it can explain everything observed and doesn't require the giant leap of faith dark matter theory does.

I equate dark matter theory to a black board with hundreds of equations that don't add up and someone scribbles in "Then A Miracle Occurs" and suddenly the formulas add up.

The beauty of the newer theory is that it's just an extension of previous work. Similar to have Einstein's work was an imrpovement over Newton's--and doesn't require some magic pixie dust to explain things. ;-)

Pirschjaeger
01-24-2008, 03:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Lurch1962:
The only dark stuff out in space which will block light is the dust content in interstellar clouds. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

.....and homeless planets, dead stars, and asteroids.

I thought these counted as part of the "dark matter" but I guess I was wrong.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
01-24-2008, 03:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Has this desire taken the place of religion for many people?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good question. But, haven't most of the UFO claims been made in areas that are predominantly religious?

I've never really given this much thought but it seems to me that those who believe in gods would be more likely to believe in UFOs. This is not to compare gods and UFO's but rather to point out the willingness to believe in something withoput evidence (faith). Maybe UFO chasers are disgruntled former church goers. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Yes, that was a joke.

FRitz

Pirschjaeger
01-24-2008, 03:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heywooood:

and MB - if god created the heaven and the earth and all that lies in between, then he would have created them as well, yes?

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but in the image of who? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
01-24-2008, 03:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WWSensei:
The beauty of the newer theory is that it's just an extension of previous work. Similar to have Einstein's work was an imrpovement over Newton's--and doesn't require some magic pixie dust to explain things. ;-) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've never liked magic pixie dust; it irritates my eyes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I see what you mean now.

There's something else. For years people have talked about multiple realities. Now this has been something I've never really given any thought to until just recently. There are reputable physicists that believe they exist. Most of their reasoning is based on the behaviors of sub-atomic particles. They've observed sub-particles doing things that defy the common laws of physics.

At the same time, we are entering into an age of time-technology. Scientists have broken the speed of light and others have or are about to send particles into the future. It's now serious science and the funding doesn't seem to be a problem anymore.

I'll predict that in a 100 years or so, we will have times travel. We'll be able to send tangible objects into the future, but nothing living. Dealing with the time travel to the past is much more complicated.

I wonder where today's religious institutions and UFO chasers will be 500 years from now.

Fritz

Sergio_101
01-24-2008, 03:55 AM
USAF just in..

It was a large group of F-16s on a training flight.

Oh yes, add to that a bunch of dane bramaged Texans http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/23/airforce.ufo/index.html

UFO people always make me laugh. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sergio

Blood_Splat
01-24-2008, 05:50 AM
Cool F 16's that make no sound. It's a good thing we can trust our military to tell us the truth. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

buzzsaw1939
01-24-2008, 05:59 AM
maybe they were glideing! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Pirschjaeger
01-24-2008, 06:51 AM
AFGeneral to Engineers;

General: What about Project Deafening?

Engineer: Yes sir, it's ready for final testing.

General: How will we know it'll work?

Engineer: We're going to fly over Texas tonight. Watch the news. "UFO" is a codeword for "success".

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Now, I can remember clearly seeing a jet that didn't seem so far away. I waited for the sound to reach me, which it never did. At other times I've heard jets and not been able to see them.

UFO?

Yeah!!! Only because they we too far away for me to identify.

Fritz

buzzsaw1939
01-24-2008, 07:40 AM
Your pretty sharp today Fritz! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Pirschjaeger
01-24-2008, 01:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Your pretty sharp today Fritz! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another solved mystery,...unsolved. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by3Q2jzeJKY&feature=related)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Fritz

Enforcer572005
01-24-2008, 01:53 PM
What makes me laugh are folks who are gullible enough to believe any nonsense the govt comes up with, no matter how absurd. Just like George Orwell's "1984".

The base commander just happens to remember that they had some low level training going on (outside their training area btw), but couldn't find that out at the time. Never mind that at least one pilot and a large number of people describe what cannot be an F-16 (which make alot of noise btw). Sort of like the same explanations for Roswell that they keep coming up with. They know most people will just do a cursory look without really learning any of the facts, so they can claim it's the moon monkeys mating out of season, and these guys who laugh at "UFO chasers" will go along with it.

They deserve pity, but their gullibility is keeping the truth from people who actually resent being lied to.
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

buzzsaw1939
01-24-2008, 02:02 PM
And they said we brought them over for thier rocket knowledge! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Enforcer... ya, they are established liers, but they aren't that stupid! disinformation works!

VW-IceFire
01-24-2008, 03:12 PM
This is the one thing...if the government is anxious to put a lid on some of the more silly UFO stories they'd just say that they were doing some training exercises with their F-16s right off the bat. But no...they decide to change stories a few days later. Thats where the conspiracy theorists come in...and it DOES make you wonder what the heck they are thinking.

buzzsaw1939
01-24-2008, 03:29 PM
I don't think they think we think! errr, something like that! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Pirschjaeger
01-24-2008, 03:46 PM
I have a simple explanation for the contradictions in information that come from the government institutions. But first, let me ask you this; Have you ever attempted communication with a government institution? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
01-24-2008, 04:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
......and these guys who laugh at "UFO chasers" will go along with it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really? Check the links under my sig. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

But to be fair, there are "UFO chasers" that deserve respect. I once saw a documentary about two guys that had been investigating UFO claims for years. They firmly believed in the existence of UFOs but also admitted they had never seen a shred of evidence.

In a strange way, you gotta respect them.

In my opinion, there's nothing wrong in simply believing in UFOs, ghosts, or gods. Where things go wrong is when someone tries to convince others without even the tiniest shred of evidence. The usual explanation for the lack of evidence is that the US government is keeping things under wraps.

Does anyone here actually believe any government, let alone the US government, could keep aliens and UFOs under wraps? Are people forgetting that governments are made of people?

I believe there is alien life and plenty of it. I just don't believe they vacation on Earth.

Fritz

Enforcer572005
01-26-2008, 11:55 AM
I just wanna point out that people are sentenced to long prison terms and even death on far less evidence than there is on UFOs. Witness testimony and even weak circumstantial evidence is considered sufficient for such. There is tremendous evidence, but to what extreme must it be to be considered evidence? By definition, there has been much evidence presented on this thread alone.

Yet society has a double standard when it concerns subjects that it has been indoctrinated by govt/media to discredit.

There is no question of the existence of UFOs....the question is what are they?

The ET explanation is the simplest and most obvious, though maybe not the correct one. Advanced technology that is beyond our capability makes people uncomfortable, so it must be explained away to make them feel better.

THose who believe govt has no interest in debunking such aren't familiar with the policies enacted under AF secretary Harold Brown in the 60s and expanded later on. Not as bad now, but for decades, a mere mention of UFO in any military context would destroy a career. Its very complicated and the history is extensive on such.

luftluuver
01-26-2008, 12:08 PM
My dad, brother and me saw something on a very cold (the snow went crunch when walking) mid December night. Thought it might have been a Sabre taking off as it was on the flight path but there was no sound. Now you all know that sounds travels much better when it is cold. It was moving very fast and had no tail like a jet exhaust.

Phoned the airport and was told no a/c had taken off at the time we saw this object.

Pirschjaeger
01-26-2008, 12:39 PM
There are things that are very hard to explain. But just because there's no explanation doesn't make it a spacecraft with aliens.

Enforcer, humor me. You said there was evidence of UFOs in this thread. Can you point it out? I haven't seen it.

I'm not saying there aren't UFOs. I'm simply saying that I have never seen evidence of UFOs.

Here's one of the best stories I've heard:

Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLOCQk4Kh5s)

Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s5nuqrFBW6E&feature=related)

This is good (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z6LjTgU4bc&feature=related)

Interesting (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg6fIoKUqwc&feature=related)

I choose these ones because unlike most videos or stories, these tended to be objective and I couldn't instantly debunk them. But, does that mean they are spaceships flown by aliens? Not necessarily. The biggest issue I have with the last one is that the authorities were on the scene for 3 hours and yet they didn't call in a police chopper nor did the military send anything. Let's not forget that the media wasn't there recording what could be the most important event in human history. That's very fishy.

But what if they were? Would the government tell us? No, of course not. Would you?

No one ever talks about what the public's reaction would be. Look at what a simple radio joke did in the 50's. People actually committed suicide.

You'd have every wacko Dumb, Thick, and Scarry creating anarchy.

Fritz

luftluuver
01-26-2008, 12:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
No one ever talks about what the public's reaction would be. Look at what a simple radio joke did in the 50's. People actually committed suicide. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That was Orsen Well's broadcast of 'War of the Worlds' on Oct. 30, 1938

Pirschjaeger
01-26-2008, 01:06 PM
Thx Luftluuver. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Fritz

MB_Avro_UK
01-26-2008, 01:34 PM
Hey Fritz ol' chap!

Are you reading from my script http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

luftluuver
01-26-2008, 03:15 PM
Pirsch, that is also the day before Halloween. Everybody was caught up in the ghost and goblins thingy.

Sergio_101
01-26-2008, 03:40 PM
What makes me laugh are folks who are gullible enough to believe in UFO's.

Stupid, ignorant, or gullable, no matter, they
are a strange crowd at best.

Lets do the math.

Closest star of the M class (sun like) that
is not a binary or a tripple is 50 light years away.
Lets say it has a Earth with equally silly gullable
humans on it.
They build a space ship......a star ship.
But as we all know it is nearly impossible
to get near 1% the speed of light, even with nuclear power.

Current tech can maybe get us to 100,000mph.
That's .015% the speed of light.

At that rate it would take 334,388 years
for a one way trip.......

That's a long time traveling just to scare
a few gullable humans, and build some rock pyramids.

Just think. Why rock pyramids?
Obvious answer is that the Egyptians were a post neolithic
culture that built with stone.

But NOT to the space alien crowd......
They think their ancestors were to dull to figure
out how to move heavy things like rocks. (perhaps THEIR ancestors were ;-))

But explain to me why a aien driving a wonderful starship
would not build with Titianium and chromimum?
Nickle, steel, and copper alloys.....

Want it to last forever? Build it with chrome nickle alloys....

Yup, you space alien UFO guys are just to damn stupid to do the math.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Sergio

Bo_Nidle
01-26-2008, 09:11 PM
I do not pretend to have the answer to the UFO phenomena but to believe we are the only intelligent life in the galaxy is the height of arrogance. I think Monty Python summed it up in their song from "The Meaning of Life"

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at 900 miles an hour,
That's orbiting at 19 miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see,
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at 40,000 miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the Milky Way.

Our galaxy itself contains 100 billion stars
It's 100,000 light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, 16,000 light years thick
But out by us its just 3,000 light years wide
We're 30,000 light years from galactic central point,
We go round every 200 million years
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding Universe.

The Universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light you know,
12 million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there
is.
So remember when you're feeling very small and insecure
How amazingly unlikely is your birth
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere out in space
Because there's bugger all down here on earth.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuQszlbhEeE

heywooood
01-26-2008, 09:13 PM
thanks Bo - I loved that song....oh look - a Blumonge!!

TheGozr
01-26-2008, 10:26 PM
Sergio_101 i think with what you say you really really have to look in the mirror.. So closed minded.. I bet you believe in the bible..

Plunkertx
01-28-2008, 06:26 PM
Again, no evidence for aliens, yet people believe in this thing more than they believe in a God. Why?

mortoma
01-28-2008, 08:20 PM
While I don't believe or disbelieve in the UFO phenomenom, I saw something in the late spring of 1972 that still freaks me out. I was outside, looking the sunset and after the sun was below the horizon, I saw three unidentified craft come into view just over the horizon and they were in formation close together. They were shining/glittering in the sunlight that was still able to shine on them, as the sun was still probably above their horizon. They were stubby cigar or oval shaped and very low to the ground and traveling northward or slightly north, north eastward. Then they all three stopped and hovered for a second and then continued traveling in the same direction.

They were very clear and easy to see and I was not seeing things. Only problem was, I never learned of any other sightings in the area in the same time frame. And given the fact that they were so low to the ground, someone else should have seen them. It is possible that others did in fact see these object but simply did not report them. But I have always wondered about those objects. Did not look like anything man made at that time or even now.

Sergio_101
01-29-2008, 12:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:
Again, no evidence for aliens, yet people believe in this thing more than they believe in a God. Why? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe the God myth is a verbotten subject here.

What happened to half this thread?

Sergio

Pirschjaeger
01-29-2008, 01:23 AM
I tried to log in last night and there was a message that the site was under maintenance.

We must have hit a nerve with the aliens and they removed the sensitive part. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

stathem
01-29-2008, 01:39 AM
Well, I'm going to re-post what I posted yesterday :-

I for one neither believe nor disbelieve in the existence of UFOs. I agree with previous posters on the inescapable barrier of interstellar distances meaning the chance of meeting or contacting other alien life forms is slim to none.

However there is another explanation for such contact.

We, as an intelligent life form, are rapidly (or relatively rapidly) approaching the point where the power of our computing and the understanding of the human brain and consciousness are getting much closer to the point where one could postulate, without breaking any fundamental physical laws, running a human consciousness on a non-biological information system (a computer). We may have to wait until we can build a quantum computer for this, but there is nothing to ˜stop' us. After all, consciousness is simply information, and information can be stored in many ways.

Now, if we can run a human (-type) intelligence on a processor, this gives us two things.

One is the end of biological cell death – so, immortality.

The other is more subtle – we could run the ˜processor' at slow clock speeds (calculations per second), and so the ˜entity' could experience time subjectively. In this scenario, ten million light years could be experienced as ten minutes. The geological time span it takes to cross the interstellar distances thus becomes bearable. In fact, a community of such entities could vacate their planet and make interstellar space their home.

If we can postulate the possibility of doing such a thing, then it follows that other intelligent life forms could also, or already have, done this.

Still, it doesn't get over the difficulty of such a being finding us in the vastness of the universe, in the miniscule timespan that we, as an intelligent life form, have inhabited it.

Unless they already knew we were here, having seeded us (ie life in general), for sh1ts and giggles. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pirschjaeger
01-29-2008, 02:17 AM
Ha ha ha, de ja vu. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Aliens are messing with our space/time continueum. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Fritz

slipBall
01-29-2008, 02:46 AM
The US is testing at nite it's next generation X class space planes. What was spotted may have been the craft known as Aurora, in honor of the Goddess of the Dawn http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Pirschjaeger
01-29-2008, 04:33 AM
Yes, and it's top secret, level 42. Even we don't know about it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Fritz

Blood_Splat
01-29-2008, 07:06 AM
ACTUAL AFFIDAVIT FOLLOWS.
NOTE THE DEFENDANT IS THE DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY

Peter A. Gersten, Esq.
Attorney for Plaintiff
Arizona Bar #016925
Sedona, Arizona 86351


UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA


CITIZENS AGAINST UFO SECRECY, INC.
7349 Via Paseo Del Sur #515-194
Scottsdale, Arizona 85258
(602) 818-8248
Plaintiff,

v.

DEPARTMENT OF ARMY

Defendant,
)
)
) CIV98-0538PHXROS
)
)
) AFFIDAVIT
)
)


I, Col. Philip J. Corso, (Ret.) do hereby swear, under the penalties of
perjury, that the following statements are true:

That at all times hereinafter mentioned, I was a member and officer of
the defendant.

That during my tenure with the defendant I was a member of President
Eisenhower's National Security Council and former head of the Foreign
Technology Desk at defendant's Research & Development department.

That on or about July 6, 1947, while stationed at Fort Riley, Kansas, I
personally observed a four-foot non-human creature with bizarre-looking
four-fingered hands, thin legs and feet, and an oversized incandescent
light bulb-shaped head. The eye sockets were oversized and almond
shaped and pointed down to its tiny nose. The creature's skull was
overgrown to the point where all its facial features were arranged
frontally, occupying only a small circle on the lower part of the head.
There were no eyebrows or any indications of facial hair. The creature
had only a tiny flat slit for a mouth and it was completely closed,
resembling more of a crease or indentation between the nose and the
bottom of the chinless skull than a fully functioning orifice.

That in 1961, I came into possession of what I refer to as the ˜Roswell
File.' This file contained field reports, medical autopsy reports and
technological debris from the crash an extraterrestrial vehicle in
Roswell, New Mexico in 1947.

That I have personally read the medical autopsy reports which refer to
the autopsy of the previously described creature that I saw in 1947 at
Fort Riley, Kansas.

That said autopsy reports indicated the autopsy was performed at Walter
Reed Hospital, which was under the authority of the defendant at the
time of the autopsy.

That said autopsy report referred to the creature as an
˜extraterrestrial biological entity.'


__________________________

Colonel Philip J. Corso (ret.)

Sworn before me
this day of ___ May, 1998.

Sergio_101
01-29-2008, 11:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Blood_Splat:
ACTUAL AFFIDAVIT FOLLOWS.
NOTE THE DEFENDANT IS THE DEPARTMENT OF THE ARMY

Peter A. Gersten, Esq.
Attorney for Plaintiff
Arizona Bar #016925
Sedona, Arizona 86351



UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
THE DISTRICT OF ARIZONA


CITIZENS AGAINST UFO SECRECY, INC.
7349 Via Paseo Del Sur #515-194
Scottsdale, Arizona 85258
(602) 818-8248
Plaintiff,

v.

DEPARTMENT OF ARMY

Defendant,
)
)
) CIV98-0538PHXROS
)
)
) AFFIDAVIT
)
)


I, Col. Philip J. Corso, (Ret.) do hereby swear, under the penalties of
perjury, that the following statements are true:

That at all times hereinafter mentioned, I was a member and officer of
the defendant.

That during my tenure with the defendant I was a member of President
Eisenhower's National Security Council and former head of the Foreign
Technology Desk at defendant's Research & Development department.

That on or about July 6, 1947, while stationed at Fort Riley, Kansas, I
personally observed a four-foot non-human creature with bizarre-looking
four-fingered hands, thin legs and feet, and an oversized incandescent
light bulb-shaped head. The eye sockets were oversized and almond
shaped and pointed down to its tiny nose. The creature's skull was
overgrown to the point where all its facial features were arranged
frontally, occupying only a small circle on the lower part of the head.
There were no eyebrows or any indications of facial hair. The creature
had only a tiny flat slit for a mouth and it was completely closed,
resembling more of a crease or indentation between the nose and the
bottom of the chinless skull than a fully functioning orifice.

That in 1961, I came into possession of what I refer to as the ˜Roswell
File.' This file contained field reports, medical autopsy reports and
technological debris from the crash an extraterrestrial vehicle in
Roswell, New Mexico in 1947.

That I have personally read the medical autopsy reports which refer to
the autopsy of the previously described creature that I saw in 1947 at
Fort Riley, Kansas.

That said autopsy reports indicated the autopsy was performed at Walter
Reed Hospital, which was under the authority of the defendant at the
time of the autopsy.

That said autopsy report referred to the creature as an
˜extraterrestrial biological entity.'


__________________________

Colonel Philip J. Corso (ret.)

Sworn before me
this day of ___ May, 1998. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Obviously a fraud, a fabricated "document"
But the UFO writers and publishers stand to lose $$$$$$$
if the truth is known, so they stoop to such lows.

UFO people and the JFK assination conspiracy people
need lies, rumor and out right fraud
to keep their fairy tales afloat.
(add to that growing list the FOOLs that believe the 9-11 attacks were a US goverment plot)
I don't suffer FOOLs gladly.

We are not alone people, just to remote to spend 300,000,000 years travel to pay a visit.

Blood_Splat, where did you find such a felonious "document"?

Sergio

Pirschjaeger
01-29-2008, 11:55 AM
and no one has yet realized he was describing the leader on N.Korea without his wig? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

Plunkertx
01-29-2008, 01:17 PM
Does anyone know of any real physical objects that can be seen by the public as coming from an alien or UFO? I mean, I just don't understand...in this day and age, with all the camera cell phones and digital cameras, no one has filmed anything convincing other than little puffs of light here and there. Maybe there's stuff out there that I know about.

Pirschjaeger
01-29-2008, 01:46 PM
When I was a small child I looked out my window on Christmas Eve. Much to my amazement I saw Santa and his reindeer. There were moving pretty fast but I was so sure of what I saw.

Today, the image is still very clear.

I think it might have been the first time I'd ever seen a meteor burning up in the atmosphere.

Fritz

Enforcer572005
01-31-2008, 11:03 AM
Pirsch, you presented evidence yourself with the posts you made the previous page. Everybody on here is confusing "evidence" with "proof". Different people have different levels of what evidence represents proof. The level of this "proof" is what most have established at such a high level as to be unattainable with anything less than a crashed ship and bodies presented by the a national govt. Again, there is LOTS of evidence in this thread, but no actual Proof as required for many to give serious consideration to this subject.

Sergio's attitude is the usual one that most encounter, hence most don't say anything about what they encounter. Such arrogance is not a possitive thing, and is very closed minded. Just because he has never seen anything this bizarre like some of us have means that he is smarter and we are stupid for facing some facts that make many uncomfortable. THis kind of thinking has caused more backwards behavior through history......heavier than air flight is impossible, nobody can break mach 1,if we can't do it, it's impossible etc.

Most of what is published on this is drivel, but alot of guys on here have seen something odd, and these are people who are familiar with what current military technology can do.

And there are LOTS of videos of much more than lights or blurs, or effects software. Again, if I haven't seen it, it doesn't exist. When they are seen, they are always explained away even if they are of very good quality (like loads of daylight video from places like Mexico City over a period of a couple of yrs).

I'm not criticizing anyone who is skeptical, as anyone with any brains should be to some extent. But there is lots of "evidence", if not outright "proof", and calling people "stupid" and criticizing thier mathematical skills is itself backwards and stupid.

Travel between stars is simply a question of technology, and somebody a thousand yrs ahead of us is obviously not going to use the same technology, or even science, that we do.

Sergio_101
01-31-2008, 11:15 AM
Arrogance?

Show me.

I was at Roswell and "Area 51" breifly
in the 1970's. No wierd stuff there.
I was in systems Command. I had the need to know
and reason to be there.

----------------------------------------

What makes me laugh are folks who are gullible enough to believe in UFO's.

Stupid, ignorant, or gullable, no matter, they
are a strange crowd at best.

Lets do the math.

Closest star of the M class (sun like) that
is not a binary or a tripple is 50 light years away.
Lets say it has a Earth with equally silly gullable
humans on it.
They build a space ship......a star ship.
But as we all know it is nearly impossible
to get near 1% the speed of light, even with nuclear power.

Current tech can maybe get us to 100,000mph.
That's .015% the speed of light.

At that rate it would take 334,388 years
for a one way trip.......

That's a long time traveling just to scare
a few gullable humans, and build some rock pyramids.

Just think. Why rock pyramids?
Obvious answer is that the Egyptians were a post neolithic
culture that built with stone.

But NOT to the space alien crowd......
They think their ancestors were to dull to figure
out how to move heavy things like rocks. (perhaps THEIR ancestors were ;-))

But explain to me why a aien driving a wonderful starship
would not build with Titianium and chromimum?
Nickle, steel, and copper alloys.....

Want it to last forever? Build it with chrome nickle alloys....

Yup, you space alien UFO guys are just to damn stupid to do the math.
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Sergio

Enforcer572005
01-31-2008, 01:08 PM
We DID show you, and you won't look sir. Again, your last post indicates that if YOU did not experience it or see it, then it does not exist and anyone who has experienced other than what you have is stupid. Reminds me of the church elders who refused to look through Galileo's telescope and then burned him to death for blasphemy etc. They felt he was "stupid" I'm sure.

According to the math, heavier than air flight and exceeding Mach 1 was also impossible. Govt experts said so, therefor it must be true and to think otherwise is "stupid". It's only impossible until somebody does it.

Lots of people have been to Roswell and Area 51 who haven't seen anything. That is so meaningless. I made two trips to Gulf Breeze in the early 90s, on the first I saw nothing, but on the second I spent three nights watching all sorts of lights etc do odd things with alot of other people. I am merely pointing out the folly of such limited two dimensional thinking. You MAY be right that light speed is impossible and that nobody has visited here, but you MAY NOT be, and that is all I'm suggesting people consider. So because you did not see it when you were at Roswell etc, then I and these other guys didn't see what we did, or we are just morons for basing our opinions partly on our familiarity with aircraft.

You declare something an Obvious fraud without the first bit of study or consideration. That guy's book was written one yr before he died and he DID have a position in military intel. That does NOT mean it's true, but to dismiss such out of hand without any examination seems pretty stupid to me. Much of this stuff IS fake, but some is pretty thought provoking. You should at least examine it first though.

I've known several people in the military in sensitive positions who DID see or know of some pretty strange stuff. Not everyone has the same experiences in such a position.

I am of the opinion that somebody IS able to travel among stars rather easily, and that they have been cruising through here for centuries for whatever reasons that are also obviously above our ability to figure out. I think it's pretty obvious that this is going on, but I don't think anyone who reaches other conclusions is stupid or mathematically challenged. I MAY be wrong, but I MAY NOT be. If you can't accept that, you are liable to miss out on some interesting events.....maybe.

What's really stupid is seeing some really odd stuff and pretending that you never did, just because it makes you or somebody else feel better. I'm not rewriting events just to placate the general view of society. I consider all the possibilities. To do otherwise after some of the stuff I've seen first hand would really be stupid. I know airplanes rather well, and I know they cannot do what I've seen some of this stuff do.

buzzsaw1939
01-31-2008, 01:53 PM
Some people keep getting UFO and aliens mixed up in here, you can see a light in the night sky, then suddenly, more lights start to appear in an ark, wow! a UFO, proof for sure!

I see an airplane droping flares in an exercise, which I have seen hundreds of times, and know exactly what it looks like, but I'm guilty of limited thinking, or part of a cover up,..mmmmmm.. isn't personal perception a wonderful thing?

You have seen a UFO (unidentified flying object)! too you!

I have seen an airplane!

Where does the alien part come in? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Enforcer572005
01-31-2008, 02:16 PM
The alien part comes in when these things demonstrate technology/performance beyond what modern military planes can are capable of. We don't have disk shaped planes, nor do we have cigar shaped aircraft that are the size of football fields etc. (just some examples) Sometimes it's the most obvious explanation, but certainly not the only one. Seeing an object make rt angle turns without energy loss, and start and stop suddenly tends to make an impression.

buzzsaw1939
01-31-2008, 02:32 PM
Oh.. But I have seen those kind of things too! and I call them UFO's, because I can't explain them,....yet! but I still don't see aliens!

Personal perception, based on personal beliefs!

It's too bad we lost 2 days of this thread, most of this stuff was covered pretty intelligently.

luftluuver
01-31-2008, 03:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sergio_101:
I don't suffer FOOLs gladly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
How do you live with yourself then?

M_Gunz
01-31-2008, 03:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Enforcer572005:
Reminds me of the church elders who refused to look through Galileo's telescope and then burned him to death for blasphemy etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whaaaaaat?

Try put under house arrest for publishing counter to church teachings and he died of old age.
The problem with contradicting church teachings was that the power of the church and the rich
was based on everyone in their ordained place and he could upset that.

Between that and other suppressed understandings the new learning left Italy over a few
CENTURIES and the power base eroded but so slowly it was barely noticed. There's an old
saying about big ships take a long time to sink, and that's just about corporations that
keep up bad practices longer than anyone would think reasonable.

He sold the telescope that he improved but did not invent btw.
It was then used commercially to spot ships coming in as a market advantage tool.
Those who had the telescopes reaped big-time, the church didn't care as long as you
didn't point the things up at "the heavens".

Before that he was a low paid teacher even though he was a brilliant guy, but not too smart.

Enforcer572005
01-31-2008, 09:49 PM
I stand corrected on Galileo then. They burned somebody though, I just forget who. (wasn't Copernicus was it?) A few yrs ago, the Vatican finally admitted that the church was wrong for persecuting people for promoting the sun as the center of the solar system. Anyway,

My point was that critics who decided the Earth was the center of the universe refused to look at the evidence to see otherwise and then penalized the guy trying to bring this to their attention.

There are many well known people who feel as I do, and they are certainly not considered stupid. Some of us resent being lied to by govt and the so called "scientific community"....the same guys who called Author C. Clarke crazy because he predicted communications satellites would be orbiting the earth someday, and that people would all carry their own personal radio phones.

gates123
02-01-2008, 12:33 AM
Let me dig up some witness testimony...hmmm wheres that at, oh here we go. Let me educate some of you guys who choose to stay in the dark:


"Of course UFOs are real--and they are interplanetary.....The cumulative evidence for the existence of UFOs is quite overwhelming and I accept the fact of their existence."
--Air Chief Marshall Lord Hugh Dowding, commanding officer of the Royal Air Force during WWII. Statement made in August of 1954.

"Reliable reports indicate there are objects coming into our atmosphere at very high speeds and controlled by thinking intelligences."
-Rear Admiral Delmar Fahrney, U.S. Navy Missile Chief

"I am convinced there was thought behind the thing's maneuvers."
-Lieutenant George Gorman, North Dakota Air National Guard. In October, 1948 Gorman (flying an F51) chased a "ball of light some eight inches wide" for about thirty minutes, through a series of twists, turns and circles, nearly colliding with it on at least one occasion. The object was also witnessed from the control tower at the Fargo Airport through high-powered binoculars

"UFOs are real and they may come from outer space....photographs and various materials show scientifically that there are more advanced people piloting the saucers and motherships."
-General Kanshi Ishikawa, Chief of Air Staff of Japan's ASDF, in a statement in 1967.

"Air Force interceptors still pursue Unidentified Flying Objects as a matter of national security to this country and to determine technical aspects involved."
-Major General Joe W. Kelly, 1957

"Something is going on in the skies....that we do not understand. If all the airline pilots and Air Force pilots who have seen UFOs--and sometimes chased them--have been the victims of hallucinations, then an awful lot of pilots should be taken off and forbidden to fly."
-Captain Kervendal, of the French Gendarmerie

"In concealing the evidence of UFO operations, the Air Force is making a serious mistake."
-Lt. Colonel James McAshan, USAF

"Flying saucers are real. Too many good men have seen them, that don't have hallucinations."
-Captain Eddie Rickenbacker, "American Ace of Aces," medal of honor-winning commander of the 94th Aero Pursuit Squadron in WWI, with 26 "kills".

"UFOs sighted in Indonesia are identical with those sighted in other countries. Sometimes they pose a problem for our Air Defence and once we were obliged to open fire on them."
-Air Marshall Nurjadin Roesmin, Commander-in-Chief of the Indonesian Air Force, 1967

I can assure you that, given they exist, these flying saucers are made by no power on this Earth.
"” President Harry S. Truman, 4 April 1950, at a press conference

I believe that these extraterrestrial vehicles and their crews are visiting this planet from other planets - which obviously are a little more technically advanced than we are here on earth.
"” Astronaut L. Gordon Cooper, Mercury 7

We all know that UFOs are real. All we need to ask is where do they come from.
"” Astronaut Edgar D. Mitchell, after his Apollo 14 Moon flight in 1971

I've been asked [about UFOs] and I've said publicly I thought they were somebody else, some other civilization.
"” Astronaut Eugene Cernan, Apollo 17, in Los Angeles Times, 1973.

I've been convinced for a long time that the flying saucers are real and interplanetary. In other words we are being watched by beings from outer space.
"” Albert M. Chop, deputy public relations director at NASA

UFOs are as real as the airplanes that fly over your head. . . . I'm so concerned about what the consequences might be of starting an intergalactic war, that I just think I had to say something. . . . The secrecy involved in all matters pertaining to the Roswell incident was unparalleled. The classification was, from the outset, above top secret, so the vast majority of U.S. officials and politicians, let alone a mere allied minister of defence, were never in-the-loop.
"” Paul Hellyer, Canada's Defence Minister from 1963-67, speech at the University of Toronto, 25 September 2005.

The phenomenon of UFOs does exist, and it must be treated seriously.
"” Mikhail Gorbachev, 'Soviet Youth,' 4 May 1990


_______________________________________________

now you all can debate as long as you want. You can either buy the decades long disinformation campaign to keep this from the public or you can read the writing on the wall and except the fact that for obvious national security reasons this subject is confined to very compartmentalized military intelligence and back-engineering program. It is what it is. A reality!

Disclosure is just around the corner folks. I hope you have your chin straps buckeled.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/23/nufo23.xml

slipBall
02-01-2008, 02:21 AM
UFO sighting's began after man took to the air. I have not heard of much folk lore about UFO's sightings from peoples around the globe, prior to aircraft, and weather balloon's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

http://english.pravda.ru/main/2002/11/05/39145.html

http://www.ufocasebook.com/auroramystery.html

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/aurora.jpg

luftluuver
02-01-2008, 04:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by slipBall:
UFO sighting's began after man took to the air. I have not heard of much folk lore about UFO's sightings from peoples around the globe, prior to aircraft, and weather balloon's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You need to do more reading.

Christian Bible Genesis 6

The sons of God looking at the daughters of men, saw they were pleasing, so married as many as they chose. The Nephilim were on the Earth at that time (and even afterwards), when the sons of God resorted to the daughters of man, and had children by them. These are the heroes of days gone by, the famous men.
Book Of Mormon 1st Nephi 15:30

.......was like unto the brightness of a flaming fire, which ascendeth up....
Egypt 22AD

Egyptians during the reign of Thutmose III were witness to the landing of a "circle of fire." The craft was "one rod long and one rod wide." After a time, the ship shot back up into the sky.
Scotland 60AD

Scotland's King Domnall Mac Murchada witnessed a luminous, flying object while attending a fair in Teltown, Meath County. The object was often seen moving over Scotland in the night sky.
Holy Bible Ezekiel :1

And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness [was] about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire Also out of the midst thereof [came] the likeness of four living creatures. And this [was] their appearance; they had the likeness of a man. Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces The appearance of the wheels and their work [was] like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work [was] as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel. And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature [was] as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above. And when they went, I heard the noise of their wings, like the noise of great waters, as the voice of the Almighty, the voice of speech, as the noise of an host: when they stood, they let down their wings.
France 840AD

The Archbishop of Lyons, Agobard, wrote, in his "De Grandine et Tonitrua," that he had stumbled upon an angry mob lynching three men and a woman. When asked why these people were to be hanged, the mob responded that they were people who landed from a "cloud ship" in Magonia. The Archbishop promptly freed the men and the woman who the mob thought were going to use magic to spoil the year's harvests.
France 927AD

On a clear Sunday morning the town of Reims, as well as the whole of eastern France including Verdun, watched the skies, fearful that the mass of objects that appeared overhead were signs of the Apocalypse.
Atlantic Ocean 966AD

Sailors on a merchant expedition were startled from their sleep by a huge, cylinder- shaped craft. The object remained visible to the crew for many minutes before disappearing into the distance.
Japan 1015AD

People on the streets of Tokyo watched as two luminous object hovered in the night sky. Minutes later, several smaller, white objects disengaged from the two larger craft. All of the objects circled over Tokyo for about an hour before vanishing.
Egypt 1027

Merchant scribes along the Nile wrote in their logs that many saw large, noisy craft hovering above the bustling Cairo streets.
Japan 1133

Farmers, planting seedlings in their rice patties, watched as a saucer shaped craft wavered in the sky. It descended rapidly, almost crashing into the ground. As quickly as it had appeared, the craft regained stability and climbed out of sight.
England 1290

An ancient manuscript found in Byland Abbey and belonging to the ancestors of Henry, the Abbott, reads, "There was a great portent outside. A large round silver thing like a disc flew slowly over them and excited the greatest terror." People, partaking in the feast commemorating the Saints of Simon and Jude, rushed out into the night to witness this mysterious phenomenon.
Windsor Castle 1783

"Northeast of the Terrace, in clear sky and warm weather, I saw appear suddenly an oblong cloud nearly parallel to the horizon. Below the cloud was seen a luminous body, brightly lit up and almost stationary... This strange ball at first appeared bluish and faint, but its light increased, and it soon began to move. At first, it ascended above the horizon, obliquely toward the east. Then it changed its direction and moved parallel to the horizon. It vanished in the southeast. I saw it for half a minute, and the light it gave out was prodigious. It lit up every object on the face of the country. It changed shape to oblong, acquired a tail, and seemed to split up into two bodies of small size. About two minutes later came a rumble like an explosion," wrote Tiberius Cavallo, Fellow of the Royal Society, in his memoirs.

http://www.hulford.co.uk/history.html

http://www.crystalinks.com/ancientastronauts.jpg

This cave painting is c.10,000 BC and is from Val Camonica, Italy.
It appears to depict two beings in protective suits holding strange implements.

http://www.crystalinks.com/ufokiev.jpg

Strange suited figure found in Kiev. It dates to ca. 4,000 BC.

http://www.crystalinks.com/ufohistory.html

slipBall
02-01-2008, 05:13 AM
OK, you got a baker's dozen there, my key word was "much" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif for many centuries of time, that is not very strong. Some may have been told by half crazed human's http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif we will never know...there is certainly life forms on other rocks up there, but I don't think they come here yet

buzzsaw1939
02-01-2008, 05:37 AM
Slipball....I was going to say, watch it, the bible thumpers will start quoting, but they beat me to it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2008, 12:09 PM
Slipball,

depending how you look at it, there are less sightings now than there used to be.

Now, you are asking yourself "WTF is he on about?" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Today the population is much more than in the past, naturally. People have video and image capturing equipment. Most importantly, and only recently, most everyone writes.

Writing is a new thing when talking about the general public. Up until recent history writing was only done by very few. When some one says we've had writing ofr 10,000 years, I think "No, we've had illiteracy for 9,850 years.

So, how would people have reported sightings? Only by word of mouth or by art.

Enforcer,

I gave a lot of thought to what you said. You made some really good points and I think you've identified one of our weaknesses.

We tend to want to see things in black and white. A couple of us seem like we are arguing for the sake of arguing. Although I believe that 99% of sightings are simply BS or wishful thinking, there's still that 1% that just cannot be explained.

Having said that, my official stance is that I doubt there is anything but I can't rule out the possibility. I would be so happy if someone had something real to show. And who knows, maybe we've already seen it but didn't know it. There's so much junk being broadcasted that we wouldn't be able to see the real thing.

People like to say the US is hiding the truth. I think it's more likely Hollywood's unintentional smoke-screens are to blame.

Would the real alien please stand up?

Ask this question and a million psychos are on their feet.

Fritz

Plunkertx
02-01-2008, 12:20 PM
Funny how so many are so quick to denounce the Bible, yet, they quote Bible passages to "Prove" UFOS exist!

You can't have it both ways, friends.

Also, there is NO proof, NONE, NADA, ZIP for aliens. Show it to me then.

And to the guy that posted quotes from people who claimed to believe in aliens...that's fine, I can show you a zillion more (and lots more respected) than your short laundry list. So, really, I think it's a non-issue.

If I sound harsh, then I'm sorry. I just want to see what makes everyone believe in aliens, yet, so quick to denounce a God.

If so, what created the aliens?

Ratsack
02-01-2008, 12:26 PM
Evolution.

Ratsack

gates123
02-01-2008, 12:26 PM
If you choose to ingore the evidence of UFO's and credible witness testimony then you choose to swim in your own pool of ignorance and denial. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
________________________________________________

"I believe that these extraterrestrial vehicles and their crews are visiting this planet from other planets, which are a little more technically advanced than we are on Earth. I feel that we need to have a top level, coordinated program to scientifically collect and analyze data from all over the Earth concerning any type of encounter, and to determine how best to interfere with these visitors in a friendly fashion.

We may first have to show them that we have learned how to resolve our problems by peaceful means rather than warfare, before we are accepted as fully qualified universal team members. Their acceptance will have tremendous possibilities of advancing our world in all areas. Certainly then it would seem that the U.N. has a vested interest in handling the subject quickly and properly.

I should point out that I am not an experienced UFO professional researcher - I have not as yet had the privilege of flying a UFO nor of meeting the crew of one. However, I do feel that I am somewhat qualified to discuss them, since I have been into the fringes of the vast areas of which they travel. Also, I did have occasion in 1951 to have two days of observation of many flights of them, of different sizes flying in fighter formation, generally from west to east over Europe. They were at a higher altitude than we could reach with our jet fighters....

If the U.N. agrees to pursue this project and lend the credibility to it, perhaps many more well qualified people will agree to step forth and provide help and information."

-Astronaut Gordon Cooper addressing a U.N. panel discussion on UFOs and ETs in New York, in 1985; Panel was chaired by then U.N. Secretary-General Kurt Waldheim.


More from Gordo:
QUESTION: What about the repeated allegations that the astronauts saw many UFOs?

GORDON COOPER: It got so bad that there were deliberately falsified tapes of communications with the astronauts, where UFO material was simply edited in. To my knowledge, the only astronaut on any of the Mercury, Gemini, or Apollo missions who ever saw anything that might have been a UFO was Jim McDivitt, but he didn't get enough pictures to prove anything substantial. That's the only case, in spite of all the stories you hear.

Question: Didn't you go after some UFOs as an air force pilot in Germany in the 1950s?

GORDON COOPER: Yes, several days in a row we sighted groups of metallic, saucer-shaped vehicles at great altitudes over the base, and we tried to get close to them, but they were able to change direction faster than our fighters. I do believe UFOs exists and that the truly unexplained ones are from some other technologically advanced civilization. From my association with aircraft and spacecraft, I think I have a pretty good idea of what everyone on this planet has and their performance capabilities, and I'm sure some of the UFOs at least are not from anywhere on Earth.


Donald (Deke) Slayton, "Mercury Seven" astronaut, stated in an interview, that he had seen a UFO in 1951:
"I was testing a P-51 fighter in Minneapolis when I spotted this object. I was at about 10,000 feet on a nice, bright, sunny afternoon. I thought the object was a kite, then realized that no kite is gonna [sic] fly that high. As I got closer, it looked like a weather balloon, gray and about three feet in diameter. But as soon as I got behind the darn thing, it didn't look like a balloon anymore. It looked like a saucer, a disc. About that same time, I realized that it was suddenly going away from me - and there I was, running at about 300 miles an hour. I tracked it for a little while, and then all of sudden the damn thing just took off. It pulled about a 45-degree climbing turn and accelerated and just flat disappeared. A couple of days later, I was having a beer with my commanding officer, and I thought, ' What the hell, I'd better mention something to him about it.' I did, and he told me to get on down to intelligence and give them a report. I did, and I never heard anything more on it." (October 23, 1979.)

Yevegni Khrunov, Soyuz-5 spacecraft pilot in 1969:
"Is the presence of extraterrestrial civilizations conceivable? Of course. Before the uniqueness of the earth is demonstrated, this assumption should be taken as quite legitimate. As regards UFOs, their presence cannot be denied: thousands of people have seen them. It may be that their source is optical effects, but some of their properties, for instance, their ability to change course by 90 degrees at great speed, simply stagger the imagination." (December 1980.)

Sgt. Chuck Sorrells: US Air Force (ret.), December 2000
Chuck Sorrells is a career Air Force military man who was at Edwards Air Force Base in 1965 when not one, but at least seven UFOs appeared over Edwards Air Force Base airspace, moving in extraordinary fashion at enormous speeds, making right-hand turns and other maneuvers which no known aircraft was capable of at the time. They appeared on multiple radars, were seen visually by several people, and a special UFO officer scrambled and authorized a jet to intercept these objects. This event lasted for five or six hours. An edited transcript of the audiotape of the event follows his testimony.


Mr. Michael W. Smith: US Air Force, November 2000
Michael Smith was an Air Traffic Controller with the Air Force in Oregon and, subsequently, in Michigan. At both of these facilities he and others witnessed UFOs tracked on radar and moving at extraordinary speeds. He also confirms that personnel were expected to maintain secrecy concerning these observations, and that NORAD, the North American Air Defense Command, was fully apprised of these events. In fact, in one event in Michigan, NORAD was fully engaged, and steered B-52s returning to base around these UFOs.


Commander Graham Bethune: US Navy (ret.), November 2000
Cmdr. Graham Bethune is a retired Navy commander pilot with a top-secret clearance. He was a VIP Plane Commander who flew most of the high-ranking officers and civilians from Washington D.C. In his testimony he explains how he was flying a group of VIP's and other pilots into Argentia, Newfoundland when they all witnessed a 300 foot UFO that traveled 10,000 feet straight up in a fraction of a second toward their plane and was on radar. He has documented the event extensively.


Mr. Enrique Kolbeck: Senior Air Traffic Controller, October 2000
Mr. Enrique Kolbeck is a senior Air Traffic Controller at Mexico City International Airport. In his testimony he speaks about the frequent UFO sightings seen at the airport visually and on radar. They are clocked at tremendous speeds and making almost instantaneous hairpin turns. Of the 140 air traffic controllers at the airport, he estimates that over 50 have seen this phenomenon. During one sighting, 32 controllers visually saw the same red and white lights simultaneously moving around a conventional landing aircraft. There have been reports from all four air traffic control centers in Mexico of these UFOs.


Dr. Richard Haines: November 2000
Dr. Haines has been a NASA research scientist since the mid 1960's. He has worked on the Gemini, Apollo, and Skylab programs as well as several others. Over the past 30 years, Dr. Haines has compiled over 3,000 cases of unusual visual and radar sightings of unexplained aerial phenomena. He notes that numerous foreign cases also appear in the literature and are very similar in nature to the American reports. In one case here in America, a B-52 captain told him that he and his crew had five round spheres appear just off of each wingtip, behind their aircraft, above the aircraft, and below and they kept up with the plane at cruise altitude and speed. The captain tried to shake the spheres with evasive maneuvers but each sphere kept exact position. There are other cases where pilots look into the transparent cupola of some of a UFOs and detail can be seen inside.


Mr. Franklin Carter: US Navy, December 2000
Mr. Carter was trained as an electronic radar technician in the Navy in the 50's and 60's. He tells of an incident where he witnessed a clear, unambiguous radar contact speeding along at 3,400 miles an hour. There were other radar operators as well who, at various times in 1957 and 1958, also witnessed these unusually fast moving objects. At the time, the fastest human aircraft clocked in at 1,100 miles and hour. In one case an Air Force operator tracked one of these UFOs 300 to 400 miles out in space. When these reports repeatedly kept coming in to General Electric who manufactured the radar, their technicians came in and modified the electronics so that the radar would limit it's reporting to 12 to 15 miles out into space.


Neil Daniels: Airline Pilot, November 2000
Mr. Daniels is a pilot with over 30,000 of flight time spanning 59 years. He entered the Air Force and became a B-17 pilot surviving 29 combat missions. After leaving the Air Force he worked for United Airlines for 35 years. He tells about the time in March of 1977 when he was flying a commercial flight from San Francisco to Boston. The plane was on autopilot when by itself it began to bank left. He looked out the window and noticed a brilliant bright light. The first and second officers both saw it also. They were perplexed because all three compasses reported different readings.


Sgt. Robert Blazina: (ret.), August 2000
Mr. Robert Blazina is a retired military man with a top-secret clearance. He worked transporting nuclear weapons all over the world. He personally witnessed a UFO maneuvering in the clear nights sky at an incredible speed straight up. Another time he and a civilian 747 both saw on their radar screens an object travel an estimated 10,000 miles an hour directly at them.


Lieutenant Frederick Marshall Fox: US Navy (ret.), September 2000
Lieutenant Fox was in the Navy in the 60's flying attack planes. He had a top-secret clearance and served in Vietnam. He is a retired pilot of 33 years with American Airlines. In his testimony, he reveals that there is a publication called JANAP 146 E that has a section which states that no one is to share any information regarding the UFO phenomenon under penalty of $10,000 fine and 10 years in prison. During one incident in late 1964, while flying an A4 Skyhawk, he says that all of a sudden a darkened saucer shaped object about 30 feet in diameter appeared on his left side. There were many other events over the course of his career where he observed saucer shaped and cigar shaped UFOs over military installations as well as one time seeing two red lights traversing the night's sky from horizon to horizon in three seconds. He was afraid to bring up these events to others due to the inherent ridicule in the subject.


Captain Massimo Poggi: September 2000
Captain Poggi is a senior 747 captain for Alitalia. He relates an event where when flying from Rome to Sao Paolo in July of 1999 he witnessed a glowing green halo soaring past just 500 feet below his 747. The aircraft experienced a sudden jump when this UFO passed underneath. Very noisy static came through his headphones during this experience. At another time while flying over Turin Italy in 1992, he saw a distant elliptical sphere maintaining a very steady position relative to the clouds as if stationary. He saw this UFO through a spotting scope. After looking away to briefly speak to his co-pilot, he looked back and it was gone


Lt. Bob Walker: US Army, September 2000
Lieutenant Walker was a 2nd lieutenant in the Army. After World War II at a NASA (then NACA) open house he saw a 30-foot saucer-shaped craft which had been brought back from Germany for study. On another occasion he was piloting an aircraft for a TV station when a disc shaped object came in from the west. He had his camera and climbed to 12,000 feet to take some photos of it. After landing, he immediately had the pictures developed and enlarged. The object turned out to be a football shaped silver object with points at each end. His film was subsequently taken from him under unusual circumstances. In his testimony he also speaks of a time when he happened into a diner late at night near Ft. Campbell in Kentucky and overheard conversations from MPs about how a flying saucer had landed next to a nearby farmhouse and the MP's were there cordoning off the area. Creatures were present and were shot at by the frightened farmhouse owner.


Mr. Don Bockelman: US Army, September 2000
Mr. Bockelman was a Launch Area Electronics Technician for the US Army. He was also trained as a systems analyst and worked on Nike Hercules missiles. For two years he worked for Honeywell making nuclear tipped torpedoes. Mr. Bockelman heard numerous first hand accounts from various radar operators that they were seeing extremely fast targets moving at 3500 miles an hour. Some of these were making impossibly small-radius turns. At one time he witnessed an attempted to shoot one down with an air defense missile near Mount Vernon, WA

_____________________________________________

How much more proof do you guys need? Dont buy the ridicule factor. Theres been a very serious policy to ridicule witness testimony to force people away from making this subject serious once again as it was in the 50's. If an astronaut from one of the original Mercury Seven says he thinks UFO's are from another civilization, who's to say he's full of it along with all the other witnesses I have posted. Witness testimony works in a court of Law but when its applied to the UFO subject, people laugh it off because well.. they want you too.

Wepps
02-01-2008, 12:31 PM
You know what I never figured out?

Here we have a supposedly super advanced technology, capable of building craft that can fly across the universe faster than light. They seem to be smart enough according to some to have influenced religion, politics, even our genetic makeup over the eons.

But they can't seem to stop crashing into the planet!

You'd think they would also have advanced navigation technology and skills, being they came such a long way and all.

Who knows, maybe they are here to get improved skill from hunters, and GPS systems or something.

Maybe they are just here for a cow lip burger.

Personally I just think people are really gullible.

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2008, 12:51 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif @ Wepps.

I'm glad I wasn't drinking my cofee as I was reading. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Here's something else to consider. So many people believe that so many people and machines have vanished whilst traversing the Bermuda tri-angle. Although it's been proven to be a complete lie time and time again, people still believe it.

There are supposed eyewitnesses, official reports, and so many stories, yet they've all been debunked. The same goes with the Philidalphia experiment. They for the guy that started the whole thing. The papers made sure the stories would go on.

So, how can anyone expect to believe anything these days without something tangible? Without something to hold in hand? Without even one clear video?

I'm not saying all the claims are lies. I'm just asking how I can be expected to believe any of them?

Fritz

slipBall
02-01-2008, 01:02 PM
I say, be carefull what you wish for...afterall, they gotta eat something http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f394/SlipBall/toserveman.jpg

Von_Rat
02-01-2008, 01:04 PM
ITS...ITS,,, A COOKBOOK !!!!

Von_Rat
02-01-2008, 01:06 PM
until a ufo parks itself on the capitals lawn and micheal rennie steps out with a 9 foot robot, i'll remain skepictical.

slipBall
02-01-2008, 01:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Von_Rat:
ITS...ITS,,, A COOKBOOK !!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



Shouted to those boarding the transport http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

MEGILE
02-01-2008, 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Wepps:


Personally I just think people are really gullible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Either the universe is a trillion years old and was once comanded by the Emperor Xenu (ala scientology), or a large percentage of mankind is extremely gullible.

gates123
02-01-2008, 01:33 PM
Its funny I provide highly credible witness testimony that would stand up in a court of law and most of you STILL choose to ignore the facts. I would rather be gullible then ignorant. Here's a few more testimonials that you guys can sweep under the carpet and pretend its all hollywood or a figmant of a crackpots imagination.
_____________________________________________


Admiral Lord Hill-Norton: Five-Star Admiral, Former Head of the British Ministry of Defense, July 2000
Lord Hill-Norton is a five-star Admiral and the former Head of the British Ministry of Defense who was kept in the dark about the UFO subject during his official capacities. In this short interview, he states that this subject has great significance and should no longer be denied and kept secret. He emphatically states, "...that there is a serious possibility that we are being visited "” and have been visited for many years "” by people from outer space, from other civilizations; that it behooves us to find out who they are, where they come from, and what they want. This should be the subject of rigorous scientific investigation, and not the subject of rubbishing by tabloid newspapers."


Sgt. Clifford Stone: US Army
"During the discussion of UFOs, the question, ultimately, is going to come up, can any government keep secrets, let alone the U.S. Government? And the answer to that is unequivocally yes. But one of the greatest weapons the intelligence community has at their disposal is a predisposition by the American people, the American politicians and the debunkers "” people who wish to try to debunk UFO information. They immediately come out and say, oh, we can't keep secrets, we can't keep secrets. Well, the truth is, yes, we can.

"The National Reconnaissance Office remained secret for many, many years. The mere existence of the NSA remained secret. The development of the atomic weapon remained secret until once you exploded one you eventually had to tell some people what was going on.

"And we are conditioned by our own paradigms not to accept the possibility or probability of a highly advanced intelligent civilization coming here to visit us. You have evidence in the form of highly credible reports of objects being seen, of the entities inside these objects being seen. Yet, we look for a prosaic explanation and we throw out the bits and pieces of the evidence that doesn't meet our paradigm. So it is a self-keeping secret. You can conceal it in plain sight. It is political suicide to go and start hitting up intelligence agencies to get this information released. So, most of your members of Congress, and I know I've worked with a lot of them along that line, will balk and try not to do it. I can name you three members of Congress that were point blank asked to have a congressional inquiry on what happened here at Roswell...

"We have got to get the documentation as it exists in the Government files. We have got to get it released before it ultimately is destroyed. A good example is the Blue Fly and Moon Dust files. I had classified documents the Air Force acknowledged. When I got members of Congress to help me open up more files, they were immediately destroyed and I can prove this.

"Somewhere along the line, they may see that material and realize there is some very highly sensitive information that would have a damning effect upon the national security of United States should it become compromised. It needs to be further protected, to insure that there is only a limited access to that information to a small number of people. So small you can put them on a list of paper, on a piece of paper, and list them by name. Thus, you have the special access programs. The controls that were supposed to be put on the special access programs are not there. When Congress did their review of the way we protect documents, and the way we go ahead and implement our secrecy programs, they found that you had special access programs within special access programs "” that is was essentially impossible to keep control of them all by Congress. And, I'm telling you right now; it is essentially impossible to keep control of them all.

"When it comes to UFOs, the same criteria applies. Therefore, only a small nucleus within the intelligence community, numbering less than a hundred "” no, I'd suggest less than 50 "” control all that information. It is not subject to congressional review or oversight at all. So, Congress needs to go ahead and ask the hard questions and convene a hearing."

Blood_Splat
02-01-2008, 01:42 PM
4 basic rules of UFO debunkery:

1.What the public doesn't know, we are not going to tell them.


2.Don't bother us with the facts, our minds are made up.


3.If we can't attack the data, we will attack the people; it is much easier.


4.Do one's research by proclamation, rather than investigation. It is much easier and most people won't know the difference.

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2008, 01:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gates123:
Its funny I provide highly credible witness testimony ......" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a court of law, don't the witnesses first have to have proven credibility before they are labelled "credible"?

Fritz

gates123
02-01-2008, 01:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In a court of law, don't the witnesses first have to have proven credibility before they are labelled "credible"?

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fritz are you saying that 5-star generals, Astronauts/cosmonauts, heads of state and decorated pilots & military officers are not credible witnesses because that is what you are implying.

Deny ignorance.

luftluuver
02-01-2008, 02:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Plunkertx:
Funny how so many are so quick to denounce the Bible, yet, they quote Bible passages to "Prove" UFOS exist! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The Bible is a history book. Some believe what the Bible says but refuse to believe what it says about UFOs and <span class="ev_code_GREEN">little green persons</span>. The Bible thumpers can't have it both ways.

Are there UFOs? Yes.
Are they flown by '<span class="ev_code_GREEN">little green persons</span>'? I don't know.

gates123
02-01-2008, 02:29 PM
Heres an update to the Stephensville case from one of the main investigators currently working on it
______________________________________________
Q&A with Ken Cherry, state director of the Mutual UFO Network

Q:What do you think of the military's explanation of the multiple UFO reports in Stephenville – that there were 10 F-16s training in the area?

A:Initially [when they denied any involvement], I think they were trying to discredit the witnesses by saying that what they had viewed was an optical illusion. We had witnesses who had accurately described F-16s in the area that were chasing a UFO. I think the new military explanation only reinforces the credibility of our witnesses, proved to be more reliable than the Air Force, frankly.

The idea that they forgot they had an exercise in the area just doesn't hold water. So it appears to have been a cover-up.

Q:How much UFO activity does Texas have?

A:Normally, we get 15 to 20 reports a month, which puts us among the top two or three in the country. With the high number of reporting results we have had in the Stephenville-Brownsville area, this is very significant – over 150 reports. But these aren't all related to an individual sighting at a specific time. These took place at different hours of the day and night, and some even over the last several years.

What we've uncovered is a pattern of UFO sightings at the area. They appear to be related to the same phenomenon. But they're not all at the same time. We consider this to be even more significant because so many people have reported incidents.

Q:What do you think it all means?

A:So far, it means that there is something that is taking place out there. We've eliminated a lot of the known possibilities. Early on in the investigation, we could see that something important was happening, or we wouldn't be devoting so many resources to this event.

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2008, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gates123:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">In a court of law, don't the witnesses first have to have proven credibility before they are labelled "credible"?

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fritz are you saying that 5-star generals, Astronauts/cosmonauts, heads of state and decorated pilots & military officers are not credible witnesses because that is what you are implying.

Deny ignorance. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I am saying that being a 5-star general, astronaut/cosmonaut, head of state, a decorated pilot or a military officer doesn't necessarily make you a credible witness just because you are a 5-star general, astronaut/cosmonaut, head of state, a decorated pilot or military officer.

Assuming that they'd be credible just because of their positions would be ignorance.

My bet is that all these people are humanoid and most likely even human. That being the case, there may be some imperfections.

I am denying nothing. What I am want to know is what makes them credible. You stated they are all credible. On what grounds. Let's remain objective.

Fritz

MB_Avro_UK
02-01-2008, 04:11 PM
Hi all,

Whilst on the topic of credibility...

There was a sighting in the 1980s by a JAL cargo crew at night. (This was part of a UFO series on US TV and can be seen on youtube).

The captain contacted radar and said that he could see a space ship and strange lights formating on him. Radar confirmed that they had a return following the aircraft.

The captain was removed from flying duties after landing.

I did my own research on this incident and things were not as dramatised as in the programme.

The Captain had twice previously seen 'motherships' on previous flights.

The account he gave to the press of the incident 6 weeks after the sighting was far more expansive than his initial report.

The co-pilot did did not see the same objects as the captain but saw some lights.

Also,the radar return was following the aircraft as the captain radioed that the space ship was in front of him. Radar operators often get spurious returns due to the mountainous area along the flight path.

Also,Venus was in the quarter of the sky referred to and bright.


The point I'm making is that there has to be objective and independent assessment of all sightings.

The programme took a sensationalist stance and convinced many people that 'they' were out there.

This pilot was a professional of course and 'had' to be believed!

Don't accept every report at face value.

(I have a feeling that this incident may have been mentioned earlier in this thread but was deleted by Government Agents.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif)

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

gates123
02-01-2008, 04:16 PM
Fritz I think their resumes and military experience speaks for themselves. The question you should be asking is what would make them not credible? Why should you not believe what these people are saying? They are people in HIGH AUTHORITY government positions with very high security clearences. For you to question their honest witness testimony makes me think that you among many other armchair UFO debunkers are so conditioned on making fun (and ridicule)UFO reports that even when one hits you over the head you'll still call it swamp gas.

See I get a sense that its easier for you to question peoples testimony and credibilty before you take what they say as being serious. What I have presented to this thread is factual quotes that you are totally unaware of because you have absolutlely no knowledge in ufo history, which is very obvious. (read the book called The Day After Roswell). I have been following this subject very closely since my personal sighting 15 years ago and after my own investigation and curiosity I have concluded that the phenomonon is VERY real and there are way too many credible reports and cases to continue to deny their existence. Its clear to me that no matter how much data one can present, some people will always choose to keep their head in the sand rather then open their mind to what is possible. Now Fritz stop slamming my witnesses and go enlighten yourself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

For the record I don't "believe" in UFO's, I'm convinced by the radar data, witness testimony, close-up pilot accounts and genuine photos that point to something physical with intelligent design and control. Its not a belief system based on religous induendos, its metalic objects traveling at incredible speeds and 90 degree angles that our radar operators and pilots are reporting. Theres nothing mythical about it.

As you can see here some countries other then the US are willing to admit their existence:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/23/nufo23.xml

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-03-23-france-ufo_N.htm?csp=34

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7150156.stm

If you want to get lost in all the data you can visit this site. It has everything you need to know to get you up to speed.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2008, 04:20 PM
A buddy flies a 777 from Chicago to ShangHai. He's been flying commercial for over 25 years. He used to fly Chicago to Beijing so we got to meet and talk "planes" and flying often.

I asked him once if he'd ever seen anything strange. He told me the ground contacted them one day and asked if the crew could see an object ahead of them. They looked but couldn't . He said ground had an object on radar that seemed to be tracking his plane, sometimes in front, sometimes beside, but no one on the plane could see anything. He said conditions were good and if there had been something, they would have seen it.

I asked if he thought it was a UFO. He said no. He said it is not so strange to have things like this happen. The equipment is not perfect.

This doesn't mean something was there. It doesn't mean something wasn't there. It means nothing. But this is the sort of thing "UFO" researchers like to turn into a sighting. With the proper wording, it's easy to make it look like a efinite "something".

One thing I've noticed about the strong believers, is that they are quick to make assumptions and attacks, and in fact say this is the behavior of non-believers. This thread alone is full of this.

It doesn't bother me if someone believes in UFOs. In fact, I envy them. I know you guys get a good feeling from it. But, don't get offended if you can't convince me. I require hard evidence. I have no faith. I try to be as objective as possible.

Trust me, if you showed me real evidence, I would be so happy. Believe it or not, I want UFOs to exist just as much or more than you do.

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2008, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gates123:
Fritz I think their resumes and military experience speaks for themselves. The question you should be asking is what would make them not credible? Why should you not believe what these people are saying? They are people in HIGH AUTHORITY government positions with very high security clearences. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WMD's. Need I say more about High Authority honesty and integrity?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gates123:
For you to question their honest witness testimony makes me think that you among many other armchair UFO debunkers are so conditioned on making fun (and ridicule)UFO reports that even when one hits you over the head you'll still call it swamp gas. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too many assumptions on your part Gates. My chair doesn't have arms. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

But seriously, I am not trying to debunk the existence of UFOs. What I am doing is asking for proof but all I get is partial quotes. UFO organizations say people claim there are UFOs so there must be. Many more people claim there are ghosts. Are there? All I ask is proof. I'm not saying these people didn't see anything. They obviously saw something. But, just because they didn't know what it was doesn't mean they saw a space craft.[/QUOTE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gates123:
See I get a sense that its easier for you to question peoples testimony and credibilty before you take what they say as being serious. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm happy to read this. I was worried you thought I was a nutcase.http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Gates, tell me you want to sell me a car and I will ask for your ID and proof of ownership, even if you've been driving it for 20 years.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gates123:
What I have presented to this thread is factual quotes that you are totally unaware of because you have absolutlely no knowledge in ufo history and its connection highly secret military back-engineering programs. (read a book called The Day After Roswell). I have been following this subject very closely since my personal sighting 15 years ago and after my own investigation and curiosity I have concluded that the phenomonon is VERY real and there are way too many credible reports and cases to continue to deny their existence. Its clear to me that no matter how much data one can present, some people will always choose to keep their head in the sand rather then open their mind to what is possible. Now Fritz stop slamming my witnesses and go enlighten yourself.] </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Slamming your witnesses? Dude, are you ok? Show me where I slammed your witnesses. This is just the behavior I was talking about. You damage your own credibility. Who can take you seriously?

You tell me you have all the evidence but you don't share it. Instead you tell me to go enlighten myself. Please, do me a favor, share the evidence and enlighten us all.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gates123:
As you can see here some countries other then the US are willing to admit their existence:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/12/23/nufo23.xml

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2007-03-23-france-ufo_N.htm?csp=34

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/7150156.stm

If you want to get lost in all the data you can visit this site. It has everything you need to know to get you up to speed.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/ </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll look at the sites but need time naturally. But, do you really trust the Telegraph? Not so long ago they posted a story about how German women on social benefits were obligated by German law to enter into prostitution or face losing their benefits.

This of course was total BS. In fact, they had ripped and spun the story from a German newspaper that was posting a "what if" scenario similar. The story was an attack on prostitution.

Like I said, I'll look at the sites though.

BTW, out of everything you posted, your "factual testimonies", what do you think is the most valid or holds the most credibility, in your opinion?

Fritz

gates123
02-01-2008, 05:07 PM
Fritz, no hard feelings bud but you just cant disprove all that witness testimony just because I cant hand you over a piece of one. I can understand if it was some teenagers in the backyard or some dude on a motorcycle but what we are talking about here are astronauts, generals, pilots, and radar operators. These people have the aurthority and access to come to their own conclusions. We are talking about hundereds of people in high government positions that are stating this. They can't all be making this up nor would they due to their reputations.

Dont have much time here cuz Im at work but my favorite testimonial is this one, its Gordon Coopers (Mercury Seven Astronaut )Story:

Cooper has broken his silence to become the first astronaut to speak openly about alien spacecraft. He says there's been a massive government cover-up of UFOs for nearly 50 years Â* and insists the American public has a right to know the truth.

"I know other astronauts share my feelings," declared Cooper, 69, who went into space aboard a Mercury craft in 1963 and on a Gemini craft two years later.

"And we know the government is sitting on hard evidence of UFOs!"

Cooper said he first encountered UFOs as a military pilot in Germany in the early 1950s, when unidentified craft were spotted over an air base.

"We thought they could have been Russian Â* we regularly had MiG-15s overflying our base. We scrambled our Sabre jets to intercept and got to our ceiling of 45,000 feet . . . and they were still way above us traveling faster than we were.

"We thought they could have been Russian Â* we regularly had MiG-15s overflying our base. We scrambled our Sabre jets to intercept and got to our ceiling of 45,000 feet . . . and they were still way above us traveling faster than we were.

"These vehicles were in formation like a fighter group, but they were metallic silver and saucer-shaped. Believe me, they weren't like any MiGs I'd seen before! They had to be UFOs."

In 1957, Cooper was one of an elite band of test pilots at Edwards Air Force Base in California, in charge of several advanced projects, including the installation of a precision landing system.

"I had a camera crew filming the installation when they spotted a saucer. They filmed it as it flew overhead, then hovered, extended three legs as landing gear, and slowly came down to land on a dry lake bed!

"These guys were all pro cameramen, so the picture quality was very good.

"The camera crew managed to get within 20 or 30 yards of it, filming all the time. It was a classic saucer, shiny silver and smooth, about 30 feet across. It was pretty clear it was an alien craft.

"As they approached closer it took off."

When his camera crew handed over the film, Cooper followed standard procedure and contacted Washington to report the UFO Â* and "all heck broke loose," he said.

"After a while a high-ranking officer said when the film was developed I was to put it in a pouch and send it to Washington.

"He didn't say anything about me not looking at the film. That's what I did when it came back from the lab Â* and it was all there just like the camera crew reported."

When the Air Force later started Operation Blue Book to collate UFO evidence and reports, Cooper says he mentioned the film evidence.

"But the film was never found Â* supposedly. Blue Book was strictly a cover-up anyway."

Cooper revealed he's convinced an alien craft crashed at Roswell, N. Mex., in 1947 and aliens were discovered in the wreckage.

"I had a good friend at Roswell, a fellow officer. He had to be careful about what he said. But it sure wasn't a weather balloon, like the Air Force cover story. He made it clear to me what crashed was a craft of alien origin, and members of the crew were recovered."

Why has the government kept its UFO secrets for so many years?

"It started in World War 2, when the government didn't want people to know about UFO reports in case they panicked," said Cooper. "They would have been fearful it was superior enemy technology that we had no defense against.

"Then it got worse in the Cold War for the same reason.

"So they told one untruth, they had to tell another to cover that one, then another, then another . . . it just snowballed.

"And right now I'm convinced a lot of very embarrassed government officials are sitting there in Washington trying to figure a way to bring the truth out. They know it's got to come out one day, and I'm sure it will.

"America has a right to know!"
____________________________________________


Keep in mind that they are trying to get US congressional hearings to open up the subject out secrecy. Read here:

http://www.reuters.com/article/oddlyEnoughNews/idUSN1348373820071113

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2008, 05:11 PM
As you can see here some countries other then the US are willing to admit their existence:

Gates,

it seems you are able to see what you want. No country, in those reports, admitted that UFOs existed.

What is nice, is that there seems to be a trend. I knew France had made their files public and it's nice to know that England and Japan are going to follow suit. I'm really happy about this.

I think I know what you are getting from those reports. When they say 5% are unexplained reports, this doesn't say "UFO" or "No UFO". It says unexplained

The Japanese politician said he "believes" in their existence but the Japanese government said they have no confirmed reports.

But let's look at the bright side; the files are being opened for scrutinization from the scientific community. This is exciting. This means that within 10 years we should have a confident and objective answer. Then we can go back to arguing flight models, maybe for IL-2 1975. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fritz

MB_Avro_UK
02-01-2008, 05:19 PM
Hi all,

As Fritz has said we require evidence.

Ok, there maybe a top ranking General who believes in UFOs but how many don't ?

And how many of the many astronauts believe in UFOs?

A UFO is an 'Unexplained Flying Object'. It does not mean 'Aliens Visiting From Outer Space'

AVFOS!

I would very much like to believe in alien visitation to this planet but nothing I have seen or read even half convinces me.

The standard of 'evidence' I have seen so far would not 'convict' someone in a court of law.
And law-enforcement is my background.

What's the proportion of UFO 'Believers' who also believe in:

1. The Da Vinci Code.

2. The Kennedy Assassination was backed by the CIA.

3. The 1969 Moon Landing never happened and was faked.

4. Lady Diana was killed by the British Secret Service.

5. Elvis is alive.

6. The Twin Towers was backed by Bush.

Scary isn't it ??





Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2008, 05:22 PM
There are many interesting things I've heard over the years especially regarding UFO behavior. I've noticed a few times that people have reported the same things. There are certain characteristics that don't change. This of course, is quite interesting.

Cooper said that before the war reports were kept secret to avoid public panic. This makes total sense. But after the war, it makes even more sense to keep things under wraps. The was the Cold War which could also be seen as a weapons tech race.

Keep your fingers crossed. If Ron Paul wins the election he'll probably open all the files. He's a constitutional kinda guy.

Gates, I cannot say UFO do not exist. I have no proof that they don't exist. But, I still don't have proof they do exist and then there's still that 1%.

But what if they were being kept secret? What happens after the info is released? What then? If you firmly believe they exist, what will you get out of proof that they exist?

Those are serious questions.

Fritz

gates123
02-01-2008, 05:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
As you can see here some countries other then the US are willing to admit their existence:

Gates,

it seems you are able to see what you want. No country, in those reports, admitted that UFOs existed. Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Again now your saying that these countries spent $ and 30-40 years of research because they didnt think there was anything to it?

I think we'll all know the truth in less then 10 years. As long as other countries are willing to release their own studies of Unidentified aerial phenomenon (UAP)then eventually they will put enough pressure on USA to do the same. Hopefully...

You know what I want evidence of.. dark matter, I want evidence of a black hole, I want evidence of a quark. Science says they exist but no one has ever handed me one. I'm not saying they dont exist but show me one.

See Science and skeptics can't have it both ways and that goes true with UAP. The amount of data that leans towards UAP being ET craft FAR outweigh the evidence we have for Dark matter and other known scientfic theories that I have mentioned. Main probelm here is Science needs recordable evidence that can be backed up over and over. With UAP you don't know when or where they will be next so until theres an official announcment or a mass sighting that can't be denied (Stephensville falls just short but is definetly in the 5%) you will never see "science" tackle this subject. I agree only 5% of UAP reports are genuine and truly unidentified, the rest can go in the trash


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">But what if they were being kept secret? What happens after the info is released? What then? If you firmly believe they exist, what will you get out of proof that they exist? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fritz when that day comes I can finally end having to debate this damn subject for as long as I have and will be declared the winner. For me thats good enough http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2008, 05:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Ok, there maybe a top ranking General who believes in UFOs but how many don't ?

And how many of the many astronauts believe in UFOs?

Best Regards,
MB_Avro. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good points.

But, if you think about it, these questions hold little value. A little rewording possibly?

"What percentage of astronauts, who have seen things in space that they couldn't explain, believe they saw an alien space craft?"

That sort of renders the question useless even if when adjusted and applied to the generals.

Sorry Avro. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Fritz