What if tripple nadding was removed?

[DrCactus]

For those who don't know, or aren't aware of the technique. Tripple nadding is when a spy launches all three types of nades, usually in the order of smoke, chaff, flash from their gun at a sticky shocked merc. This renders the merc almost instantly defenseles.

However, if this technique was removed, or say it was fixed. So that there would be a pause like that when trying to shoot multiples of the same type of nade.

How would that change game play?
Discuss.

[DrCactus]

For those who don't know, or aren't aware of the technique. Tripple nadding is when a spy launches all three types of nades, usually in the order of smoke, chaff, flash from their gun at a sticky shocked merc. This renders the merc almost instantly defenseles.

However, if this technique was removed, or say it was fixed. So that there would be a pause like that when trying to shoot multiples of the same type of nade.

How would that change game play?
Discuss.

[Total.Ck_]

Shock, shoot chaff. Drop smoke and flash from the quick drop slots.

[DrCactus]

I don't know about you but I can't drop smoke and flash in sucession, i have to wait and reload or whatever.

[Spekkio9]

Hmmm...would be interesting. It would have to go along with other tweaks though to make being stealthy a little bit more favorable.

The question is, how is a spy to defend his partner during neutralization then? Because when you remove the triple nade, you also remove the double nade. When you remove that, the spies don't have a lot of lee-way to try to defend whatever it is they need to defend.

I know what you're driving at and two spies throwing triple nades at you can be very annoying, but I don't know if removing triple nades is the answer. Going aggro isn't my preference of playing style, but I feel that one of the caveats of this game is people should be able to and can use various styles with success.

[goodkebab_00]

it is considered standard that the better team must win as spy because teams of equal skill will always win as merc. So why make the spies weaker?

[redskirts]

nice idea, but its needed. If removed it would keep aggro spies off you even more, but would also hinder those in defense or escape techniques.

i.e. the MT *****, how would you choose to limit his attempts at tracking you without at least two nad combo, the shock chaff and flash work wonderfully against these so called people. Add in teh smoke for confusion and you usually have a clean get away...usually. Take that away and you can shock and chaff but they will just snipe you on your run out of there or shock and flash and they will snipe you with the null effect of the flash.

I know its frustrating when you get little folk bombarding you over and over, just gets flat out annoying. Most people have moved away from this until in defense or distracting.

If removed, sure it would bring even more stealth to the game, but would also hinder the spy completely useless in a battle.

I would imagine, like spekk said, once the FRS UBI fixes the issues presented since day 1 of PT you will see more ways to counter the triple nade and less reason to use it....i.e mt again and camo noise etc.

i guess i did blind you quite a bit last night didn't i... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[DrCactus]

It's also just me trying to find out how people see the need for tripple nadding. I don't tripple nade. I don't have the ability to hit the buttons fast enough. So I'm already doing the things you guys are saying you'd have to do.

I'm just trying to figure out how I can become better, as last night was brutal. Almost to the point of no fun, atleast there were many funny moments.

I just find that the tripple nade so **** annoying cause I can't not die from it when it happens. I mean it's almost predictable, you get shocked, your gonna have a whole **** load of **** thrown at you. Almost everytime now i go "wow your good...****in do something different"
So to me, it wouldn't be as bad or bad at all if Tripple Nadding was removed. It'd just make you play the way you did before, who ever it was in PT figured out "if you switch to another item you can shoot it immediately". When I first encountered it way back in PT, I thought it was a form of cheating, but then, because of UBI's lack of support it became standard and everyone used it. Except me. Similar to SS+jump. Everyone used it, except me.

So I'm just thinking that, I should jump on the ban waggon start doin the same stuff everyone else is. However, I'd rather learn to play the way I've heard solidus and snake play. 'Cause I can be sneaky i just get so lost and disapointed with my play that I don't know what to do. I litterally freeze.

I should retire. I hate this game anyways. I'm just really agitated that I see other spies do the same thing I do, yet they live 5 to 10 times longer than I do. I can't runaway from an uzi, while others can. I can't run through lazer mines at doors and live, yet others can. I can't survive snipes to the head or 4 snipes to the body, when others can. It just irritates me to no end. Nothing is constant in this game, where one thing applies to me doesn't mean it applies to others. Hell rem, you ran through a lazer mine and it didn't even go off. Earlier, I saw someone jump over a poison mine at elbow hight. COM'ON get some god **** ****ing consistancy. Then people say, it's lag man your playing on laggy servers. The thing is I play basically on the same servers, and it's always different. I shoot someone in the head I expect them to ****ing die. Do they no they run behind a box, pull out their gun shuffle ten feet to the right shock me, smoke chaff flash. Run up to me drop more smoke break my neck. Then hack the terminal I sniped their face at when I first saw them 4 seconds ago. I don't know how you guys get that auto aim thing so that you just pop right out of the side. I cant do it. I pull out my gun and I look at the box. ****! ****! ****! I need a pepsi.

[Spekkio9]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So I'm just thinking that, I should jump on the ban waggon start doin the same stuff everyone else is. However, I'd rather learn to play the way I've heard solidus and snake play. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>That was solidus and Mosar. Snakebit and Solidus are more towards the middle...kinda like what you see with Applejacks and Cocopebbles if you've ever played them. I have more but I'm in the middle of a game just was waiting for someone to come back from AFK.

[redskirts]

im with you day, the triple nad thing to me is to run, mostly, last night was just messing with yall. The only thing i find with your playstyle, and that of geo, is that you take a LOT of time just setting up for the first objective. By the time you even start one hack half of the game time is used up.

I think the time limit itself is a big limiting factor to how stealthy you can be, i mean on factory 90% of our spy losses where due to the time limit, the freggin map is big jeez. But the time i required or people would just sit and wait around corners for hours.

Also, the nad thing really isn't used by a large majority, i think the minority use it for aggro and i agree those games just aren't fun, hence my toning down the competetive games. I feel the playstyle is legit in the fact it works, other then that it's just running around.

Exploitation of stupid UBI misses is what it takes to become generally PRO in the game, there are few that don't take advantage...which i am not one... that have become great without the use of these exploits. It would be a wonder if you took away MT, Camo Noise, Triple Nad, Glitch Jumps, Beserker Elbows from hell, and all that fun stuff to see who would have to adapt the most.

Oh and another note, I do think triple nad is cheese, mosly due to there is no loading time between the shots, what is the sticky shocker on a freggin gatling gun or something...hehe

[Frelli.]

I play against Solidus and Snake alot. And I tell you they are VERY tactiacal and their timeing is almost perfect everytime. They know exactlly when they are suppose to play aggressive and when it's time for stealth they are always a step before (swedish expression , dunno how to say in english). So you can't really put your finger on how they play. But I tell you .. they are !#â¤"% good.

[Total.Ck_]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DrCactus:
I don't know about you but I can't drop smoke and flash in sucession, i have to wait and reload or whatever. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Without triple nading, the tactic of smoke, flash, chaff would still be there. It just makes it slightly less effective. Without triple nades, a spy can still shoot chaff at a merc to disorient him, while he's just coming out of the shock, he gets flashbanged. Now that the merc is blind and disorientated, the spy can run right next to him and drop smoke to slow him down. By the time, the merc can see again, he's stuck in smoke and most likely still chaffed. By this time, it doesn't matter how fast you can shoot your nades, you're just as screwed as before. While it might be harder to "start" the aggro, it's still definately there, no matter how fast you can shoot your nades.

To be honest, I'm really sick of the "Braiog" mentality that goes around. He was a great guy, but he assumed there was something wrong with the game as soon it didn't seem as easy for him as it did for everything else. The players you see doing any better then you have all had their share of BS to deal with and you're no different. Whining about it isn't going to make it any easier for you. Fixing every single glitch in the game isn't going to make it any easier, either. Because as soon as you don;t have to deal with any more glitches, etc, they don't have to either, putting you right back where you started.

If you get pissed off because the game screwed you over, turn off the game and give it a break. Then come back and play later. Keep practicing and get better. That's the best advice I can give.

As for getting out of an aggro situation, you have a couple of choices. One of my favorite tactics that I learned from Trix was to back up after being shocked and naded and berserk as soon as you are able to. Get a good feel for the timing and determine when the best time to berserk is. Not only will you escape alive, you'll most likely get a kill, too. You can also just turn away from the action and charge out of the smoke. After that, you can toss a nade in the direction of the spies and try to work your way into a safe position. Also remember than every second you can hold them off is another second your partner has to come help you, as well as seconds off the game clock. You won't escape from every aggro situation, but you'll be able to escape from enough in order to be successful in most of your games.

[redskirts]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Fixing every single glitch in the game isn't going to make it any easier, either. Because as soon as you don;t have to deal with any more glitches, etc, they don't have to either, putting you right back where you started. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


true, but it would make it a hell of a lot less frustrating. To lose under general game situations i have no problem, heck i love losing to lo and you and cook, mostly because i know im just not as good and what makes you good is none of the mentioned above. Day just doesn't play enough to get the key action required...i think anyway.

Plus to whine on the forums is a place to vent your frustration with the game, so why not do it. It's better then spekkio having to listen to me or anyone else have to listen to me *****. At least here everyone has a choice to listen (read) or not and to comment or not.

I think day just really had a bad night last night, between spekk becoming LEET and myself actually being in a grove the games became really lopsided....those canucks got a bit testy with good reason. Happens to the best and worst of us.

[Spekkio9]

Ok daybreak, here's the lowdown:

First, to defend against the triple nade, I admit, is very difficult and annoying. The best thing to try to do is to charge away from where you think the spies are going (which is typically to behind you and to your left, which means charge forward or to the right) after the shock. After that try to get a vision mode on as quick as possible to nullify the flashbang effect, and start firing away. If two spies are going for you, don't get over-anxious to kill one, just call for backup and try to hold them off. Of course the best weapon to take in this situation is the uzi, but if the spies switch up their gameplay from stealth to aggro you can get stuck with the rifle which sucks for warding off aggro spies. Also, random proxies are your friend. Finally, I like to use the laser a lot in these situations because it lets me see through the smoke and even flashbangs to some extent without vision on.

Secondly, the triple nade is a necessary defense when guarding your partner who is neutralizing an objective. At the very least, you have to keep a double nade in there. But most people don't triple nade in the first place. It goes shock ---&gt; chaff ----&gt; smoke ---&gt; put gun away ----&gt; quick-drop flash. Reason being is if you miss the merc's head with the flashbang it won't have an effect. Even if you took away triple nades, you would get what Total said. Shock ---&gt; chaff ---&gt; quick use flash ---&gt; quick use smoke ----&gt; quick use flash. It would still be the same thing. The best thing to do is just to practice getting out of it.

Third, we've all felt like s*** that works for other people doesn't work for us. There are times where I snipe a spy and I swear I hit him in the head, but he just whips out the ss, shocks me, and runs away. I can't tell you how many times I've tried the same thing but missed all 7 shots and died like a ****** when the merc isn't even moving! The auto-aim is iffy at best in this game. There are other people we've played who run through any and every mine we put down and they don't die, yet on the subsequent spy round I die from a mine after pressing slow speed. The game is inconsistent in general, and that's part of what makes it so frustrating. Hell, just before I was playing Noise and West on Club, and I knew he was going to throw a frag into lunch. Thing is, the sucker landed on the floor in front of the ND and killed me when I was at the opposite wall. Frags don't normally kill from that far away, but that time it did (OMG NUKE NAD CHETR! LoLz!). Those are just a few of many reasons I and some other people b**** so much on the forums for Ubi to clean up the game. But the end result is nothing is going to change, so like Total said you either put the game down, or you just learn to accept it.

Finally, to expand on what you said about hearing what Snakebit and Solidus do. Have you ever actually played them? If not, then try to. Or try to play Apple and Coco who have a very similar style, meaning that they can disappear instantly and leave you saying "where the f@%& did he go?!?" The main thing SaS does is memorize the merc's patrol route. They then chip away at the objectives 3-4 seconds at a time and disappear before the mercs can arrive. While the merc is looking for the spy in one room, they move swiftly to the objective they left open. Wash, rinse, and repeat. Even with this tactic, though, they will still double team the merc if necessary, they will still shock/smoke/chaff, etc., etc. So they don't limit themselves to one particular style. They are pretty adaptable, which is what makes them good.

As for your style in particular, Daybreak, your strong asset is you are very sneaky. The flipside of that is you often take too long to do what needs to be done. Like remmdog said, there is a timelimit on the game. Unless you make every situation work perfectly, which is near impossible for anyone, you have to pick up the pace. When we were playing Ops and Albedo, we were doing very well because you actually did pick up the pace. For example in Museum, when I held the mercs off in the corridors you actually moved quickly to exibition, and then you were able to get back to protect me when I was going for inner cafe. A lot of times when I'm playing with you, I'll be doing a similar action and when I die I see you sitting in a corner somewhere in the map. You went back to this style when you started playing with Geo. It's great that we can't find you and that you only die once or twice, but when you haven't touched an objective in 8 minutes you have to realize that you just gotta move faster. Be silent but be deliberate in your actions. Also, realize that by playing stealthy you do eat up time, so there is much less room for error.

[psyichic]

Was it just me or did everyone have a bad night last night? Heck me and Hunted tried to play a few games hoping to get some people my level but alas we got SAS (from what we could tell) smurfs and CAT smurfs who played us all night and it drove us crazy. Atleast the CAT smurfs told us they were smurfs for that I was glad. And dont get me wrong ive got anothing against playing vastly supperior players honestly! Hell Mr.Mic and Havoc will tell you Im glad to join their games most of the times even though me and hunted know that we have a spies chance in club not being detected every time we play.

But I mean I feel we all just had bad days yesterday. So why dont we all just forget about yesterday and move on? Im not directing this at anyone and if I was it would be directed at ME to. God yesterday I felt like Day break did. But I let it pass and said "Oh well tommorrows another day" I even had situations where my sniper bullets went right through spie's head and it didnt even affect them.

[m4_007]

SC4's is going to be great. Cant tell you alot, so Just grab your Copy of Game Informer wich should arrive in the Shelves soon enough :P

There's a Ten Page review on SC4. And you know what ? This time we aint gonna be ported over, We have our own Dev Team working on Next-Gen (PC and Xbox 360) and another working on the Crappy PS2, Gamecube and old Xbox.

BTW Remmdog, Do you think you could Sum up your Thread up there about Bug's and Issues, in a Word Document, Putting the most important ones at the Top ? Because we have to assume the Document wont completly be readed by the Annecy Team. I'd love if you could do that for me, Im pretty busy, and I would feel guilty missing a chance of us being heard by the right people just because I dont have time... Dont Forget Formatting, It gots to be easy on the eye, Those French guys can be picky sometimes !

Aw, Just Xfire me :P

[Spekkio9]

Everything that's in this thread is in DrCactus' sticky thread, and then some. Copy and paste his original post into an MS Word document and presto, you have it.

[m4_007]

Yes, But if we want to be listened, We need to speak clearly. In this case It's formatting, and Priorizing. If you wish Spekk, You can help, Because I find it hard to prioritize Game Play wich should be improved.

[SITHDUKE]

Remm you know the people i train to defend against aggro is pretty straight forward. Keep shooting, keep jumping, keep moving, keep turning and keep yourself alive. Alas the triple nade has raped me in some games and in some games it hasn't affected me at all. I normally try put my laser on and switch to EMF because there's no way in hell a spy can navigate the 'Death Cloud' without thermals unless they are wanting a face full of shoulder.

[Eclyps3]

Triple nade = 3/4 slots filled by nades... assuming that the triple nade user is an aggro spy, the 4th slot will prolly be cams. Nothing in this equipment helps the spy in somewhat stealthier, trickier tactics. They are forced to aggro. And what if mercs have a coverage plan that keeps them just a couple of seconds away from each other(and are good snipers...)?

[Spekkio9]

M4, I'd do it, but I honestly don't think the devs will listen. It'll just be a few hours wasted on collecting people's thoughts on what's most important to change going to waste. I mean, I along with many other people submitted a lot of feedback during the beta, and hardly anything was changed.

[Total.Ck_]

Look at the bug/glitch list by Daybreak. Then look at how many of those bugs/glitches were fixed. That's since June. You draw the conclusions.

[Spekkio9]

Here, I'll prioritize in a nutshell:

1. Don't release a buggy game.
2. If there are bugs found after release, fix them in a timely fashion.
3. If there are unforseen balance issues that arise later in the game, fix them in a timely fashion.

I'm assuming SC4 SvM isn't going to be exactly like PT's or CT's. If it is, well, I may not actually buy it. So what's the point of giving an entire fix list for CT when the game's going to be on a new engine anyway?

Hell, Ubi will probably do something stupid with the game that nobody wants. Actually, I'm sure they will.

[MR.Mic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Hell, Ubi will probably do something stupid with the game that nobody wants. Actually, I'm sure they will. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm thinking the same thing.

[Spekkio9]

Not to diminish your 1337 comp skills or anything, but I think hacking into and manipulating the open source code into an enjoyable game would take more computer geek talent than anyone in this small community as to offer.

[MR.Mic]

Last posts edited, because I fear that UBI will get to me.
It was something about gamers having a choice and not having to depend on UBI for an SvM game.

[Total.Ck_]

I just fear that Ubi will listen to the casual players who pick up the game for a day, demand changes, and then never touch it again. But they wouldn't do that.

Right Ubi?

Right?

[SITHDUKE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Total.Ck_:
I just fear that Ubi will listen to the casual players who pick up the game for a day, demand changes, and then never touch it again. But they wouldn't do that.

Right Ubi?

Right? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well everyone is entitled to their vote but personally i'd put alot more stock in the opinions of veteran SvMers over the rest purely due to game experience.

[Spekkio9]

I think if we got Ck, US, and SaS into a conference room, we could come out with a ****ed fine new SvM game.

[SITHDUKE]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spekkio9:
I think if we got Ck, US, and SaS into a conference room, we could come out with a ****ed fine new SvM game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you now http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif