Afghanistan huge mistake to continue

[nearmiss]

The military industrial complex, the ones that make the planes, guns, bombs and other killing machines have kept the US involved in war or warlike scrapes since the 1950s.

The Russians left Afghanistan, and they were warriors. The U.S. soldiers are under so much pressure to do the "politically correct" they are just there as moving targets. I'm not complaining about the Russian soldiers, war is just nasty business.

America is trying to wage a "politically correct war". That is a real help to some 19 year soldier trying to decide whether to shoot someone, questioning whether he can get in trouble for shooting what he perceives is an enemy or are his perceptions wrong.

They military industrial complex absolutely does not want to find Bin Laden or his remains. Their clandestine causes will have to little creditability to continue.

Osama could have been taken out or his body found by coverts years ago, if they wanted him found.

Bin Laden was stupid in his assessment of his terror attack on New York. He just fueled all the money grubbing militarists. If he is is alive he is living like a cockroach, and if he is dead he is incongnito.

America needs to make an arrangement with Pakistan with demands for Osama's head or something. America should pull out of Afghanistan and leave them to their primitive culture.

You can't fix islam. Democracy isn't possible, because their bible tells them to revere the muslim king. Even Obama was bowing to the Saudi Arabiam muslim king. The bearded old goats careless for anything, but keeping their people in subjection. The muslim faith is their sword, which is more effective than any persuasion or argument.

Education, prosperity nothing is going to change the muslim believer, their directives are clearly written throughout the Koran to kill non-believers.

The best peaceful way to deal with the Islamic believers is to keep them separate and apart from non-Islamic believers. You cannot mesh or merge Islam with Christianity or non-islamic belief. Their bible vehemently opposes such union. I don't think of Islam as a bunch of war mongers either. Islam has radicals,extremists and mass murderers just like we have in America.

America needs to pack it up and get out of Afghanistan.

[nearmiss]

The military industrial complex, the ones that make the planes, guns, bombs and other killing machines have kept the US involved in war or warlike scrapes since the 1950s.

The Russians left Afghanistan, and they were warriors. The U.S. soldiers are under so much pressure to do the "politically correct" they are just there as moving targets. I'm not complaining about the Russian soldiers, war is just nasty business.

America is trying to wage a "politically correct war". That is a real help to some 19 year soldier trying to decide whether to shoot someone, questioning whether he can get in trouble for shooting what he perceives is an enemy or are his perceptions wrong.

They military industrial complex absolutely does not want to find Bin Laden or his remains. Their clandestine causes will have to little creditability to continue.

Osama could have been taken out or his body found by coverts years ago, if they wanted him found.

Bin Laden was stupid in his assessment of his terror attack on New York. He just fueled all the money grubbing militarists. If he is is alive he is living like a cockroach, and if he is dead he is incongnito.

America needs to make an arrangement with Pakistan with demands for Osama's head or something. America should pull out of Afghanistan and leave them to their primitive culture.

You can't fix islam. Democracy isn't possible, because their bible tells them to revere the muslim king. Even Obama was bowing to the Saudi Arabiam muslim king. The bearded old goats careless for anything, but keeping their people in subjection. The muslim faith is their sword, which is more effective than any persuasion or argument.

Education, prosperity nothing is going to change the muslim believer, their directives are clearly written throughout the Koran to kill non-believers.

The best peaceful way to deal with the Islamic believers is to keep them separate and apart from non-Islamic believers. You cannot mesh or merge Islam with Christianity or non-islamic belief. Their bible vehemently opposes such union. I don't think of Islam as a bunch of war mongers either. Islam has radicals,extremists and mass murderers just like we have in America.

America needs to pack it up and get out of Afghanistan.

[Dance]

IBTL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[Airmail109]

Again another half arsed pseudo intellectual moronic post, (Are you Odin?).

If you think prosperity does not change anything, check out Turkey. How do you think Lebanon would be doing now, if the Lebanse and Israeli's could come to a much better agreement? Lebanon once being VERY liberal.

Democracy is not possible in ANY country that does not have the historical-political context for it to develop. It has rarely ever been achieved through violence.

Your final point about not all muslims being genocidal maniacs contradicts the rest of what you were saying.

[AndyJWest]

Don't feed the troll...

[The_Stealth_Owl]

Something to pass time till the lock: AWESOMENESS! (http://www.leekspin.com/)

[AndyJWest]

Good idea Owl - hijack the troll's topic: more fun than a lock.

Lets start a 'what is the best aircraft' argument: Which aircraft would you most like to crash-land in the Gobi Desert in?

[The_Stealth_Owl]

B-25 FTW!

What aircraft would you like to fly in Antartica?

[Badsight-]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nearmiss:
I don't think of Islam as a bunch of war mongers either. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah

i mean its not like every sentence was saying that eh

[AndyJWest]

Badsight-

please get back off-topic http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[AndyJWest]

I reckon a Sunderland would be much better than a B-25 for a desert crash landing, Owl. The hull would take most of the impact, so survivability would be good, and they have on-board cooking facilities - you could make yourself a cup of tea while waiting to be rescued.

And if all else failed, you could take it to pieces, and build a couple of smaller planes out of the bits, so you could fly home in formation. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

[The_Stealth_Owl]

But does ut have that giant visor over the cockpit glass? Does it have air conditoning?

[Romanator21]

C-119 or Nord Atlas Duh!!! You can use one of the booms to make another plane!!!

http://www.strategic-air-command.com/aircraft/cargo/images/C119_flying_boxcar.jpg
http://hpbimg.hemaridron.com/nord2501%2004012005.jpg
...
http://www.segalbooks.com/phoenixlarge.jpg
http://www.aerovintage.com/phoenix3.jpg

Owl; LoL, I thought you hated anime http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Ok, I've been spinning for 5 minutes already http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That's a catchy tune.

Edit:8 minutes. Am I crazy?

Edit:15 minutes. I must be. Can't stop though. Good thing my roommates aren't home.

[AndyJWest]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">C-119 or Nord Atlas Duh </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well yeah, but like I said, you could probably build two out of a Sunderland. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

[Romanator21]

Loituma, a Finnish musical group made the song:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4om1rQKPijI

Great stuff!

But Andy, you must admit it would be easier to do it with a Flying Boxcar than a Sunderland. 2 fuselages vs 1 http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[AndyJWest]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">...Andy, you must admit it would be easier to do it with a Flying Boxcar than a Sunderland. 2 fuselages vs 1 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, easier, but you've only got enough bits for one. With a Sunderland, you could build a twin-engined plane with the outer wings, and use the tailplane as wings for a smaller single-engine job. You'd have to fabricate fuselages and tailplanes from the remainder of the plane, but I reckon there would be material to spare. I see a movie here - 'Flight of the Phoenixes': the planes would of course be designed by someone who had only flown in air-combat simulators, though he wouldn't reveal that until the planes took off...

Nice tune, very catchy.

[Bearcat99]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nearmiss:
The military industrial complex, the ones that make the planes, guns, bombs and other killing machines have kept the US involved in war or warlike scrapes since the 1950s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since 1942.. we have been on a wartime economy since 1942. The same MIC the President Eisenhower warned us against has not gone away and become more deeply entrenched in our society.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Russians left Afghanistan, and they were warriors. The U.S. soldiers are under so much pressure to do the "politically correct" they are just there as moving targets. I'm not complaining about the Russian soldiers, war is just nasty business. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you implying that the U.S, soldiers there are not warriors? I highly resent that moving targets cr@p.. immensely..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
America is trying to wage a "politically correct war". That is a real help to some 19 year soldier trying to decide whether to shoot someone, questioning whether he can get in trouble for shooting what he perceives is an enemy or are his perceptions wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong again... The U.S. understands the nature of the fight.. There is nothing politically correct about not wanting to go in and just blast away at anything that moves in a situation that could easily spiral out of hand and have us at war with the entire Muslim world.. it is common sense.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">They military industrial complex absolutely does not want to find Bin Laden or his remains. Their clandestine causes will have to little creditability to continue.

Osama could have been taken out or his body found by coverts years ago, if they wanted him found. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While it is true that opportunities were missed.. not only by the Bush administration.. but by the Clinton administration as well finding Bin Laden is not as easy as some armchair generals seem to think.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bin Laden was stupid in his assessment of his terror attack on New York. He just fueled all the money grubbing militarists. If he is is alive he is living like a cockroach, and if he is dead he is incongnito. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again.. spoken like someone without a clue as to what he is talking about..and no way of decisively finding out.. if he is dead he is not living incognito or otherwise... he is just dead.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">America needs to make an arrangement with Pakistan with demands for Osama's head or something. America should pull out of Afghanistan and leave them to their primitive culture. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you know this has not been done.. Bin Laden has not been found yet because he is either dead or he is very well protected by thise close to him.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
You can't fix islam. Democracy isn't possible, because their bible tells them to revere the muslim king. Even Obama was bowing to the Saudi Arabiam muslim king. The bearded old goats careless for anything, but keeping their people in subjection. The muslim faith is their sword, which is more effective than any persuasion or argument.
Education, prosperity nothing is going to change the muslim believer, their directives are clearly written throughout the Koran to kill non-believers.
The best peaceful way to deal with the Islamic believers is to keep them separate and apart from non-Islamic believers. You cannot mesh or merge Islam with Christianity or non-islamic belief. Their bible vehemently opposes such union. I don't think of Islam as a bunch of war mongers either. Islam has radicals,extremists and mass murderers just like we have in America. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It us not our or anyone's place to "fix" Islam.. and as I said in previous threads.. I cannot elaborate on my feelings on the faith on this forum... but I do believe that there are inherent tenants of the faith which make it diametrically opposed to any other faith.. Be all that as it may very well be... You should think more carefully before you post on subjects that you are so passionate about... or refrain from posting here in such threads.

[nearmiss]

AndyJWest * Aimail101

It is amazing you two clowns contribute nothing but sarcasm and personal attacks on these boards. You should have been banned ages ago.

I careless if you decided to troll the thread, that is standard high school stuff. I said my peace to start the thread.

[nearmiss]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bearcat99:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by nearmiss:
The military industrial complex, the ones that make the planes, guns, bombs and other killing machines have kept the US involved in war or warlike scrapes since the 1950s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since 1942.. we have been on a wartime economy since 1942. The same MIC the President Eisenhower warned us against has not gone away and become more deeply entrenched in our society.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The Russians left Afghanistan, and they were warriors. The U.S. soldiers are under so much pressure to do the "politically correct" they are just there as moving targets. I'm not complaining about the Russian soldiers, war is just nasty business. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you implying that the U.S, soldiers there are not warriors? I highly resent that moving targets cr@p.. immensely..


<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;</span>
Basically I was saying our government is too concerned for the political correctness than they are for a winning war.

WHen I was in the Navy on ship the marines that ran the brig treated our shipmates worse than we treated the Iraqi at Abu Grade prison. Brig prisoners got their heads shaved, got to stay in the cells frequently for couple hours a day buck naked. Prisoners were escorted through chow lines and forced to dirty work details. They were embarassed frequently and daily. It was for a reason, to make it very clear to everyone that there were consequences for making trouble.

The news media turned Abu Grade into a political correctness B.S. US soldiers are the best trained and equipped in the world.

Do you think when we were fighting in Iraq that it made sense to go house to house in Fallujah when we could have done the sensible thing and warned the people we were going to destroy Fallujah and for everyone to get out. The terrorists would have had to flee with the citizens and it's hard carrying RPGs and all the rest of their weapons stash in when you are marching out of town.

That was another case of Political correctness in War, think about how many men we lost in Fallujah.

I would not want to be in the military fighting for America in Iraq or Afghanistan. Getting shot at is bad enough, but when you don't know if you could be charged with murder for killing a questionable enemy... that would be an extremely bad to work with.

Our government is not above prosecuting and putting our soldiers in prison under questionable circustances. They have already done it enough to cause any soldier to think twice, which is very dangerous on the battlefield.
<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; &gt;&gt;&gt;</span>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
America is trying to wage a "politically correct war". That is a real help to some 19 year soldier trying to decide whether to shoot someone, questioning whether he can get in trouble for shooting what he perceives is an enemy or are his perceptions wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong again... The U.S. understands the nature of the fight.. There is nothing politically correct about not wanting to go in and just blast away at anything that moves in a situation that could easily spiral out of hand and have us at war with the entire Muslim world.. it is common sense.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">They military industrial complex absolutely does not want to find Bin Laden or his remains. Their clandestine causes will have to little creditability to continue.

Osama could have been taken out or his body found by coverts years ago, if they wanted him found. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While it is true that opportunities were missed.. not only by the Bush administration.. but by the Clinton administration as well finding Bin Laden is not as easy as some armchair generals seem to think.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Bin Laden was stupid in his assessment of his terror attack on New York. He just fueled all the money grubbing militarists. If he is is alive he is living like a cockroach, and if he is dead he is incongnito. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again.. spoken like someone without a clue as to what he is talking about..and no way of decisively finding out.. if he is dead he is not living incognito or otherwise... he is just dead.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">America needs to make an arrangement with Pakistan with demands for Osama's head or something. America should pull out of Afghanistan and leave them to their primitive culture. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How do you know this has not been done.. Bin Laden has not been found yet because he is either dead or he is very well protected by thise close to him.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
You can't fix islam. Democracy isn't possible, because their bible tells them to revere the muslim king. Even Obama was bowing to the Saudi Arabiam muslim king. The bearded old goats careless for anything, but keeping their people in subjection. The muslim faith is their sword, which is more effective than any persuasion or argument.
Education, prosperity nothing is going to change the muslim believer, their directives are clearly written throughout the Koran to kill non-believers.
The best peaceful way to deal with the Islamic believers is to keep them separate and apart from non-Islamic believers. You cannot mesh or merge Islam with Christianity or non-islamic belief. Their bible vehemently opposes such union. I don't think of Islam as a bunch of war mongers either. Islam has radicals,extremists and mass murderers just like we have in America. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It us not our or anyone's place to "fix" Islam.. and as I said in previous threads.. I cannot elaborate on my feelings on the faith on this forum... but I do believe that there are inherent tenants of the faith which make it diametrically opposed to any other faith.. Be all that as it may very well be... You should think more carefully before you post on subjects that you are so passionate about... or refrain from posting here in such threads. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not talking about faith. I'm saying point blank, we need to get out of Afghanistan. I don't believe the last administration under George Bush wanted to find Osama, and this administration is reluctant about what they want to do.

We have men dying every day now in Afghanistan, and our government is on hold they don't have a fix. I believe tentative thinking indicates they really don't want to go on with the war.

It is a hopeless situation, it's not about the Islamic faith. The Russians waged war on Afghanistan and gave it up, and they were fighting the war to win it. Do you really think our government is fighting to win? I believe they are fighting, but they have no end of game solution.

Afghanistan will fall right back into the hands of despots that have run the country for hundreds of years whether we stay or go.

Discussion about Bin Laden. Doesn't it amaze you that with all the technology and covert ability we have we couldn't find the man? We don't know where he is since 2001, doesn't that seem strange to you. Bin Laden has 50 wives, is on dialysis (lots of expensive specialized equipment with power needs) and he is about 7 feet tall.

It just doesn't add up.

[Treetop64]

Been watching a certain Cuba Gooding Jr. movie lately, nearmiss...? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

[Romanator21]

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://photos-c.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc1/hs026.snc1/3133_84712626677_682471677_2451576_6184192_n.jpg

[nearmiss]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Treetop64:
Been watching a certain Cuba Gooding Jr. movie lately, nearmiss...? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No last one I saw he was a Navy diver with alot of physical problems. I don't see many movies. I do watch the cable news, and fox of course. LOL

I watch the military and history channels second to the news, along with CSPAN.

[BoCfuss]

I have problems with all of this too. Give the troops everything they ask for, or bring them home. If it is a war, then make it one. No borders, no rules of engagement(other then safety for yourselves), no limits on how far you will go. That is war. Otherwise what are you doing? War is ugly, do it ugly or don't do it at all.

We have given both Iraq and Afghanistan plenty of opportunity to take back their countries. If they haven't done it by now....

On the other hand I am afraid we will just be back over there in a few years fighting some other wacko. I can see what the Bush admin wanted, but I think it was a pipe dream.

[Blutarski2004]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BoCfuss:
I have problems with all of this too. Give the troops everything they ask for, or bring them home. If it is a war, then make it one. No borders, no rules of engagement(other then safety for yourselves), no limits on how far you will go. That is war. Otherwise what are you doing? War is ugly, do it ugly or don't do it at all.

We have given both Iraq and Afghanistan plenty of opportunity to take back their countries. If they haven't done it by now....

On the other hand I am afraid we will just be back over there in a few years fighting some other wacko. I can see what the Bush admin wanted, but I think it was a pipe dream. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



..... As a starter, this recent move to old Vietnam-like restrictive rules of engagement needs to be rescinded immediately. If left in place, EVERY attack upon our troops will be delivered from a village, mosque, or other civilian locale. If our troops have to be there, it's not fair to tie their hands behind their backs.

[Messaschnitzel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BoCfuss:

If it is a war, then make it one. No borders, no rules of engagement(other then safety for yourselves), no limits on how far you will go. That is war. Otherwise what are you doing? War is ugly, do it ugly or don't do it at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with the idea of these statements when dealing with a stand up, face to face fight, but the reality of it can sometimes be different when the enemy is mixed in with the population. In this case, it is the civilians caught between the government forces and the insurgents.

This is what I see happening in a war with no rules of engagement:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M08UbqFgN_A

Along with this logic:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B%E1%BA%BFn_Tre

An analogy would be where the police chased down a suspect into a bar, whereupon entry the police found a place full of people who are not at all helpful when questioned. There may be folks in there who are friends or enemies of the suspect (maybe the suspect himself is present). After folks got shook down, it come to nothing, so to fix the problem, the police decide to torch the place after coming to the conclusion that it was used as a base of operations. Problem is fixed, but not for the long haul if folks keep getting smashed and turned into potential enemies in the pursuit of supposedly turning their country around.

[Bearcat99]

NM I understand what you are saying.. and I am not saying that more aggressiveness is not needed.. but the bigger picture says that if we go into this war as if we were at war with the nation.. we will not be any safer in the long run.. It will be much worse.. this situation is unique and it requires a more thoughtful touch.. I can appreciate a CIC who weighs his options before changing strategies.. as for Abu Grav well that was a mess in the first place.. and the people who were stupid enough to pose for those pictures deserved whatever punishment they got.. but if they got what they got those above them should have had a price to pay as well.. I am all for rough interrogations.. but some of that stuff was just BS man.. and what you described from onboard ship is inexcusable AFAIC.. and the Captain who allows that kind of stuff needs to be brought up on charges..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It is a hopeless situation, it's not about the Islamic faith. The Russians waged war on Afghanistan and gave it up, and they were fighting the war to win it. Do you really think our government is fighting to win? I believe they are fighting, but they have no end of game solution.
Afghanistan will fall right back into the hands of despots that have run the country for hundreds of years whether we stay or go. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I mostly agree with you there as well... However the whole thing.. even though I think that something had to be done.. I think that both wars were not well thought out.. and more thought should have gone into how they were going to conduct both wars.. and Iraq should never have happened in the first place.. Not when and in the manner that it did anyway...

Finding OBL.. Personally I think the man may be dead.. While I agree it is hard to hide him in theory.. unless we have eyes everywhere all the time it isn't as hard as you may think.. For all we know he could be in Bosnia or something.. we don't know where he is.. or even if he is alive.. he could have died years ago..

[TS_Sancho]

A current newsweek article has a pretty good take on the current situation and its similarity regarding the U.S. involvement in S.E. Asia.

If your interested its worth a read...

http://www.newsweek.com/id/221632

[Romanator21]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I have problems with all of this too. Give the troops everything they ask for, or bring them home. If it is a war, then make it one. No borders, no rules of engagement(other then safety for yourselves), no limits on how far you will go. That is war. Otherwise what are you doing? War is ugly, do it ugly or don't do it at all.

We have given both Iraq and Afghanistan plenty of opportunity to take back their countries. If they haven't done it by now.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are not trying to take Afghanistan. That is not the point. If we wanted we could make it a lake. So? What does that solve?

Ultimately it would be amounted to genocide by some. And what would happen then? Would the world applaud us? You can expect another attack at that point.

The war is being fought to wrest the country from the Taliban and from the despots, and to give it to the people.

If we go in Rambo style and torch everything then yes, the Taliban may be destroyed, but then also too many innocents. And if you lose their support, then what? Then the war is lost because the people we would be supposedly liberating are now out of the pot, but into the fire. Comparatively, they would think the Taliban are not so bad after all. What good is that? That amounts to defeat.

And a "ok you had your chance to make a stable government, times up, now we burn your villages..." attitude just makes me laugh. The situation is a lot more complex than it seems.

War is already ugly as it is. It always is, so why make it worse?

[BoCfuss]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Romanator21:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I have problems with all of this too. Give the troops everything they ask for, or bring them home. If it is a war, then make it one. No borders, no rules of engagement(other then safety for yourselves), no limits on how far you will go. That is war. Otherwise what are you doing? War is ugly, do it ugly or don't do it at all.

We have given both Iraq and Afghanistan plenty of opportunity to take back their countries. If they haven't done it by now.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are not trying to take Afghanistan. That is not the point. If we wanted we could make it a lake. So? What does that solve?

Ultimately it would be amounted to genocide by some. And what would happen then? Would the world applaud us? You can expect another attack at that point.

The war is being fought to wrest the country from the Taliban and from the despots, and to give it to the people.

If we go in Rambo style and torch everything then yes, the Taliban may be destroyed, but then also too many innocents. And if you lose their support, then what? Then the war is lost because the people we would be supposedly liberating are now out of the pot, but into the fire. Comparatively, they would think the Taliban are not so bad after all. What good is that? That amounts to defeat.

And a "ok you had your chance to make a stable government, times up, now we burn your villages..." attitude just makes me laugh. The situation is a lot more complex than it seems.

War is already ugly as it is. It always is, so why make it worse? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

When you can not make it better, what is the point? Do you honestly think that a few more troops will be able to wrestle out the taliban? They are in Pakistan, this is what I was referring to. If we are going to fight the Taliban, lets go fight them, or leave. What exactly are we doing in Afghanistan right now, other then filling a void that the Taliban left? Who ever said that blowing everything up was a good idea? However, blowing up the right things that you are not allowed to because of politics is B.S. Nobody want to go "Rambo." This is what I meant when talking about doing the job ugly. When Washington is directing the war and not the Generals, bring the boys and girls home. Otherwise give them free rein to bust open a mosque or two or follow the Taliban where ever they go, otherwise just bring them home if you are not going to do the job.

I just don't see us doing anything beneficial over there right now, doing the same thing we've been doing for the last 7 years. Do you?

[nearmiss]

You never read or hear of victories. All you hear is casualties and injured soldiers.

Neither war makes any sense. What are we accomplishing?

Democracy for Iraq, well that is a idealogs dream I guess. The religious clerics have too much power and influence, and the Saudi have so much money they can ihhibit a democracy. Why would the Saudi allow a democracy? It might actually work and the other despotic leaders of Arab nations know their power could be taken away from them.

The terrorism sponsored by neighboring arab countries has been a big part of the insurgency all along. Al Queda was in it too. I wouldn't be surprised if Al Queda was funded by those neighbors. Afterall, all the neighboring countries waant is to prevent any government by the people for the people. So it would be doubtful, if they cared who did their dirty work.

[The_Stealth_Owl]

<span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Sorry, I didn't want to start anything, so I deleted...</span>