so isabell isnt too smart is she? :)

[myythryyn]

im playing necromancer campaign, and i find the overall plot a little hard to believe.

i guess these are spoilers, so dont read any further if you dont want to read spoilers.


i just dont understand why isabell is so willing to go along with markal's plan to bring the king back from the dead. she knows what necromancy is about.

i wouldnt trust a necromancer with a cheesy accent surrounded by walking rotting corpses, ghosts, lich's and vampires.

and she knows that life magic is not going to be used, and that an artifact with "vampire" in the name is going to be used to bring the king back.
i understand her movitations to unite the griffon empire, but she has to realise the king isnt going to come back the same.
and wont the people notice hes a little pale, doesnt like the sun, or has an eyeball missing, or talks like darth vader?

come on, hasnt isabell seen or read pet cemetary ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

even when godric tries to put some sense into her and her angels desert her, she continues and tells markal to do somthing.

so far i just dont find the plot of this campaign, or isabells willingness to go along with markal very believalbe. havnt seen the end yet, have to see what happens.....

[myythryyn]

im playing necromancer campaign, and i find the overall plot a little hard to believe.

i guess these are spoilers, so dont read any further if you dont want to read spoilers.


i just dont understand why isabell is so willing to go along with markal's plan to bring the king back from the dead. she knows what necromancy is about.

i wouldnt trust a necromancer with a cheesy accent surrounded by walking rotting corpses, ghosts, lich's and vampires.

and she knows that life magic is not going to be used, and that an artifact with "vampire" in the name is going to be used to bring the king back.
i understand her movitations to unite the griffon empire, but she has to realise the king isnt going to come back the same.
and wont the people notice hes a little pale, doesnt like the sun, or has an eyeball missing, or talks like darth vader?

come on, hasnt isabell seen or read pet cemetary ? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

even when godric tries to put some sense into her and her angels desert her, she continues and tells markal to do somthing.

so far i just dont find the plot of this campaign, or isabells willingness to go along with markal very believalbe. havnt seen the end yet, have to see what happens.....

[SirJohn1965]

just like a woman to believe what she wants to, regardless of the facts.

[javmasta]

i just finished the necro campaign, but i remember godric saying his sister, isabell's dead mother in-law, was under markall's influence. meaning that markall is probably using a spell or something to control some of what isabell is thinking, though she does have some freewill. markal is sneaky, and he does have some underhand tactics, so it's my thought that she isnt just being persuaded by his words.

[Hodge_Podge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by javmasta:
i just finished the necro campaign, but i remember godric saying his sister, isabell's dead mother in-law, was under markall's influence. meaning that markall is probably using a spell or something to control some of what isabell is thinking, though she does have some freewill. markal is sneaky, and he does have some underhand tactics, so it's my thought that she isnt just being persuaded by his words. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh please, don't make excuses for the pathetic, pitiful plot. I felt the same way about Isabel being so stupid for going along with Markal. Besides, wasn't that "bring the king back as an undead" done already in Heroes III? So that would make it a plagerized, pathetic, pitiful plot. BLAH!

[DarkMystery1979]

i agree this is very weak....no one ever will believe this **** plot.

isabel get hated by players just cause some misguided plotwriters gave her a pathetic script, especially in necro campaign. markal could have summoned nicolais ghost to persuade her when its midnight or something.

[Jolly-Joker]

Call me an idiot, but obviously Isabel is not the shining and brilliant heroine - which is pretty clear from the start with the cutscene of the first attack of hers. Seeing the end of the story it's clear that she isn't meant to. GODRIC is the Haven good guy, not Isabel.
Isabel is more like a tragic character here.
Actually I think, that many who complain about the story have no idea of what they are talking about; they probably don't bother to really read things. If you remember that last map of the first campaign - you DO get the mission objective to make sure that there won't be a fight between Nicolai and Agrael. As a player you just realize that a turn later the map is finished and the next cutscene comes: while you fail the mission objective you still win the mission to go on; in addition, in order to make sure that the player cannot stop that from happening there is no time between getting the objective and failing it.
But now see it from ISABEL's pow: you did well so far, you have the army to help, you are marching with that host to help your betrothed and you are underway SOME time, always between hope and fear, and then you arrive just a tick too late to save him. Don't you think you'd feel just a little bit guilty (besides being pissed about Agrael)?
In light of that I don't find it so unbelievable that she lends Markal her ear and clearly after the first step the train is rolling and there is no way back anymore.
You should further take note that *spoiler* after the 3rd camapaign you won't play as Isabel anymore, but you WILL play against her.

[Ieldra]

I agree with those who say that Isabel's amount of stupidity is unbelievable. To listen to a well-spoken but ill-intentioned advisor is one thing - it happens to the best of fantasy heroes - but to do so, plainly knowing what he is about, necromancy and vampirism included, that I can't believe. If anything, the dialogue should include something much more convincing than shown in the cutscenes. I can still imagine her compromising with evil for the sake for love, political necessity or whatever it is that drives her, but the way it's done breaks suspension of disbelief.
All in all, the plot is mainly OK, but this aspect of it is badly done.

[Vicheron]

It would have been a lot better if the whole process actually took some time. At first Markal could have persuaded Isabel into thinking that he wants to help defeat the demons since the demons are indiscriminant in who they destroy. Markal could then convince Isabel along with the citizens of the Griffin Empire that necromancy is the only way to even the odds against the demons since raising fallen troops to fight the demons will reduce casualties among living troops. Then Markal could have either secretly raised Nicholai himself or use magic to manipulate Isabel into siding with him.

[Jolly-Joker]

Another thing no one seems to realize is the fact that the war against the Wizards is not considered that bad a thing in the Griffin Empire because many there hold a grudge against them and the Sylvans as well for letting Nicolai's father do the dirty work in the first war against the demons, which led to his death then. Even Godric dislikes them immensely.

[Vicheron]

There's a difference between disliking someone and sponsoring the slaughter of their people.

[Jolly-Joker]

Having a look at the "real" (human) history I think that people and peoples have been slaughtered for less reason. For sure the slaughtering has been SPONSORED for less reason, so gimme a break here. Human history as a story script would obviously be much more unbelievable than that.
Why should Isabel care for the fate of the Wizards in the Silver Cities? Is there even one good reason?

[DarkMystery1979]

allthough the griffin empire does not trust the wizards anymore i see no way way isabels does grand markal his wish to kill and conquer them with undead just to revive nicolai. thats a bit mad isn't it? Except the story would have explained what feelings did drive Isabel to do such nasty things. if it would be a drama like in Macbeth, where a lord and later king goes mad and evil, there should also cutscenes why it is so. like some prophets/advisers saying your are born leader etc....so slightly persuading that one to do some nasty things, but its also important to always have doubts. i see Isabel never having any doubts, even if she does the war crime to let markal attack the wizards, which they have no business at that time, no matter who died in the last war. So persuading Isabel into this was way to easy, i would have prefered if markal did his crimes behind her back, instead that she agrees on absolutely everything with him, like a dummy doll that she is. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

hehe JJ, i study history actually and you are right here, but this is a fantasy game and humans were never supported by angels either ;-)

there is an excellent reasion why the griffin empire should not attack the wizards, well cause they were allied in the past and had to face the demons at that time, why should they risk an unneeded 2 front war? its nuts! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

actually the wizards were also supported by the elven armies during that war campaign on them, so it does not matter the griffin empire joined the undead. its still 2vs2, of course its made easy for the player to beat them, but realistically speaking it would have been the end of the griffin empire cause i see 3vs2, include the demons that at all times attacked the griffin empire to capture isabel, while the dark elves were busy with their civil war.

[Jolly-Joker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DarkMystery1979:
allthough the griffin empire does not trust the wizards anymore i see no way way isabels does grand markal his wish to kill and conquer them with undead just to revive nicolai. thats a bit mad isn't it? Except the story would have explained what feelings did drive Isabel to do such nasty things. if it would be a drama like in Macbeth, where a lord and later king goes mad and evil, there should also cutscenes why it is so. like some prophets/advisers saying your are born leader etc....so slightly persuading that one to do some nasty things, but its also important to always have doubts. i see Isabel never having any doubts, even if she does the war crime to let markal attack the wizards, which they have no business at that time, no matter who died in the last war. So persuading Isabel into this was way to easy, i would have prefered if markal did his crimes behind her back, instead that she agrees on absolutely everything with him, like a dummy doll that she is. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

hehe JJ, i study history actually and you are right here, but this is a fantasy game and humans were never supported by angels either ;-)

there is an excellent reasion why the griffin empire should not attack the wizards, well cause they were allied in the past and had to face the demons at that time, why should they risk an unneeded 2 front war? its nuts! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

actually the wizards were also supported by the elven armies during that war campaign on them, so it does not matter the griffin empire joined the undead. its still 2vs2, of course its made easy for the player to beat them, but realistically speaking it would have been the end of the griffin empire cause i see 3vs2, include the demons that at all times attacked the griffin empire to capture isabel, while the dark elves were busy with their civil war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I wonder whether anyone here bothers to go into Taverns for rumors (I can only suggest to). Anyway, the rumors will tell you that people indeed think that Isabel is mad, already at the burial of Nicolai because even BEFORE Markal makes his appearance she pursues the demons (Agrael) with everything the Griffin Empire can muster.
And I wonder, why it is, that something which happened on a regular basis in human history would be unbelievable wehen it happens in a story. Shouldn't it be the other way round?
You shouldn't let the fact influence you that you start playing the campaign with leading Isabel (she can't be THAT mad or immoral or whatever, can she?). She is no heroine, but a tragic victim. And at that point DEFINITELY out of her mind, that much should be obvious. Otherwise it would be difficult to reach the end of the story.
So when judging, whether Isabel is believable, you cannot do it with the prerequisite that she is good, rational, responsible and so on. Because she isn't. In fact she's lost it.

[Ieldra]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
You shouldn't let the fact influence you that you start playing the campaign with leading Isabel (she can't be THAT mad or immoral or whatever, can she?). She is no heroine, but a tragic victim. And at that point DEFINITELY out of her mind, that much should be obvious. Otherwise it would be difficult to reach the end of the story.
So when judging, whether Isabel is believable, you cannot do it with the prerequisite that she is good, rational, responsible and so on. Because she isn't. In fact she's lost it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You see, the problem is that the cutscenes don't show enough of her descending into madness. It is only implicated in her decisions, up to the point where Nicolai is transformed. It may be obvious that she must be mad, but it isn't brought home to the player in a satisfactory manner. An introductory written chapter where those rumors are mentioned would have helped.

[Jolly-Joker]

"There`s a rumour that Queen Isabel is going crazy about those Demon cultists. Priests are searching high and low for citizens possessed by Demons, and fires are blazing as the queen`s soldiers burn the ones they find guilty."
- Rumor from C2M4
"Fate smiles upon the old necromancer, he will have a chance to prove his good intentions to Isabel. Should he defeat the rebel army, the queen will look favourably upon him. This will be the first step in gaining her trust."
- Mission description from C3M1.
"Oh dear, there`s no peace and quiet in the Empire at all! They say some of the nobles are not happy with Isabel`s rule -- like Lords Caldwell and Randall who are trying to put Andrei, Nicolai`s nephew, on the throne. The most daring are blaming Isabel for Nicolai`s death, saying he died because of her recklessness. There was some rioting in Yellowdale, but Isabel quelled it quickly enough. But people still talk, and there are rumours aplenty."
- Rumor in C3M2
"You ever think just why Isabel decided to make an alliance with Necromancers? What`s in it for her? Well, I did, and here`s what I think: she wants to resurrect Nicolai! If she pulls that off she`d shut up everybody who`s unhappy with her rule, and have her own hands free to destroy the Demons that she hates... Well, I say, good for her! I`d be willing to suffer a dead man on the throne if it helps get rid of the Demons!"
- Rumor in C3M3

[Vicheron]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Having a look at the "real" (human) history I think that people and peoples have been slaughtered for less reason. For sure the slaughtering has been SPONSORED for less reason, so gimme a break here. Human history as a story script would obviously be much more unbelievable than that.
Why should Isabel care for the fate of the Wizards in the Silver Cities? Is there even one good reason? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh yeah and history is such an interesting subject isn't it? People just love history; they can't get enough of it. Students go into history class filled with excitement and awe. Oh wait, they don’t. History is a boring *** subject. In real life people do all sorts of stupid things for no good reason but there’s no drama or excitement in any of that. Heroes of Might and Magic 5 is a game, it should provide the drama that does not exist in reality. The game shouldn’t reflect reality, it should give plot and character development at a pace that would allow the story to retain our attention and interest

The reason why Isabel shouldn’t have gone to war with the wizards has nothing to do with whether or not she cared about the wizards, it has to do with the legion of demons slaughtering their way through the Griffin Empire.

[DarkMystery1979]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ieldra:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
You shouldn't let the fact influence you that you start playing the campaign with leading Isabel (she can't be THAT mad or immoral or whatever, can she?). She is no heroine, but a tragic victim. And at that point DEFINITELY out of her mind, that much should be obvious. Otherwise it would be difficult to reach the end of the story.
So when judging, whether Isabel is believable, you cannot do it with the prerequisite that she is good, rational, responsible and so on. Because she isn't. In fact she's lost it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You see, the problem is that the cutscenes don't show enough of her descending into madness. It is only implicated in her decisions, up to the point where Nicolai is transformed. It may be obvious that she must be mad, but it isn't brought home to the player in a satisfactory manner. An introductory written chapter where those rumors are mentioned would have helped. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

exactly this is the point, her madness could be more explained and showed to the player through cutscenes and stuff like that. i never felt her beeing that mad except for her decisions, which looked like that she is just stupid or weak, but not mad. i think many ppl have the same impressions as this is not the first post/comment about the issue. Nice hint on the tavern, but its just rumors and not enough to convience anyone.

[Jolly-Joker]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vicheron:
Oh yeah and history is such an interesting subject isn't it? People just love history; they can't get enough of it. Students go into history class filled with excitement and awe. Oh wait, they don’t. History is a boring *** subject. In real life people do all sorts of stupid things for no good reason but there’s no drama or excitement in any of that. Heroes of Might and Magic 5 is a game, it should provide the drama that does not exist in reality. The game shouldn’t reflect reality, it should give plot and character development at a pace that would allow the story to retain our attention and interest

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No offense, but I find that too ignorant to discuss this further. You seem to have suffered too much under inept history teachers - a common problem but no excuse.

[myythryyn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SirJohn1965:
just like a woman to believe what she wants to, regardless of the facts. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i think this so far is the best explanation for isabells's behaviour http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

but jolly joker, you have made some good points. i suppose i should re title this post, it should be "so isabell isnt too sane is she?"

i myself never thought to check out the tavern for rumors, i didnt think important information relating to the campaign would be there. and im sure the average or new player wouldnt know either. you seem to be the only person that has checked the tavern for these rumors http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
ill have to check out tavern rumors from now on.

i do have to agree with other peoples points that they should have made isabell's descent into madness a little more clear, it came across more like shes stupid and stubborn to me. but then its hard to get the emotions of characters whose mouths dont move and eyes dont blink http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

i suppose markal could have been using some sort of magic to persuade her, he does get the puppet master skill, but there is no indication hes using magic, so it would have to be assumed that this is happening. we have no proof it is.

overall i suppose it is madness that is driving isabell, but it just seems to happen too fast, not made very clear, and the extent of what shes doing.
its a little hard to believe her willingness to use necromancy to put an undead king on the throne. she has to realise the implications of that. she cant really believe the the king will come back alive and well.
even when godric leaves, and her angels and champions desert her she presses on without doubt.
this is the point where i would have gone, hmmm, am i doing the right thing?
not to mention she stood by and let markal curse the mages cities and turn them into necropolisis.(necropoli?) in the previous map.

[MaturanTheRed]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">i suppose markal could have been using some sort of magic to persuade her, he does get the puppet master skill, but there is no indication hes using magic, so it would have to be assumed that this is happening. we have no proof it is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Markal only controlled Nicolai using magic but he made Isabel do things for him with a bit "give-and-take".

Edit: Anyways I think the story and its characters were OK, though the plot-twists were a bit too predictable.
The game with the most genius plot-twist was the, sadly not well known, RPG "Anachronox". I was like *Why didn't I smell it* when I found out that *I don't want to spoil anyone ^^*...

[DarkMystery1979]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vicheron:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Having a look at the "real" (human) history I think that people and peoples have been slaughtered for less reason. For sure the slaughtering has been SPONSORED for less reason, so gimme a break here. Human history as a story script would obviously be much more unbelievable than that.
Why should Isabel care for the fate of the Wizards in the Silver Cities? Is there even one good reason? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh yeah and history is such an interesting subject isn't it? People just love history; they can't get enough of it. Students go into history class filled with excitement and awe. Oh wait, they don’t. History is a boring *** subject. In real life people do all sorts of stupid things for no good reason but there’s no drama or excitement in any of that. Heroes of Might and Magic 5 is a game, it should provide the drama that does not exist in reality. The game shouldn’t reflect reality, it should give plot and character development at a pace that would allow the story to retain our attention and interest

The reason why Isabel shouldn’t have gone to war with the wizards has nothing to do with whether or not she cared about the wizards, it has to do with the legion of demons slaughtering their way through the Griffin Empire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

history is more exciting and dramatic than any game i played so far and looking at games a lot of them seem to be based on them. e.g. civ4, RoN, C&C series, Age of Empires series

boring? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[tadaeusas]

she had no choise actually http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

[unreal_az]

... how about the love for Nicolai did all of this. Love is blind sometimes.

[Vicheron]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vicheron:
Oh yeah and history is such an interesting subject isn't it? People just love history; they can't get enough of it. Students go into history class filled with excitement and awe. Oh wait, they don’t. History is a boring *** subject. In real life people do all sorts of stupid things for no good reason but there’s no drama or excitement in any of that. Heroes of Might and Magic 5 is a game, it should provide the drama that does not exist in reality. The game shouldn’t reflect reality, it should give plot and character development at a pace that would allow the story to retain our attention and interest

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No offense, but I find that too ignorant to discuss this further. You seem to have suffered too much under inept history teachers - a common problem but no excuse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh what a nice ad hominem attack that draws us away from the real argument. Heck, mentioning of human history in the first place was a red herring. Human history is in no way related to this work of fiction. There’s no comparison between real life events and fantasy fiction, historical fiction maybe. Second, what am I ignorant of? Lack of interest is not indicative of lack of knowledge.

[Vicheron]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DarkMystery1979:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vicheron:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Having a look at the "real" (human) history I think that people and peoples have been slaughtered for less reason. For sure the slaughtering has been SPONSORED for less reason, so gimme a break here. Human history as a story script would obviously be much more unbelievable than that.
Why should Isabel care for the fate of the Wizards in the Silver Cities? Is there even one good reason? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh yeah and history is such an interesting subject isn't it? People just love history; they can't get enough of it. Students go into history class filled with excitement and awe. Oh wait, they don’t. History is a boring *** subject. In real life people do all sorts of stupid things for no good reason but there’s no drama or excitement in any of that. Heroes of Might and Magic 5 is a game, it should provide the drama that does not exist in reality. The game shouldn’t reflect reality, it should give plot and character development at a pace that would allow the story to retain our attention and interest

The reason why Isabel shouldn’t have gone to war with the wizards has nothing to do with whether or not she cared about the wizards, it has to do with the legion of demons slaughtering their way through the Griffin Empire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

history is more exciting and dramatic than any game i played so far and looking at games a lot of them seem to be based on them. e.g. civ4, RoN, C&C series, Age of Empires series

boring? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you serious? With the exception of periods with very detailed records and accounts, history is boring. There's little plot or character development in history. When you read about historical figures, you don't always get to know the things you want to know or even the things you need to know. With fiction, the writer can tell you anything and everything about the characters, the settings, the events taking place, etc. With fiction, the writer can add anything they want to spice up the story. With history, you already know the basic outline of story, you're not going to get surprised very often.

[hydramarin]

I agree with the statement that Isabel's madness hasn't been stressed enough throught the campaign (cut-scenes). Seeing as there is no texts that further the plot, the few ones that appear in a tavern seems a little bit harsh..

[Jolly-Joker]

I'd think that she gets rather explicit in the last cutscene of the first campaign: she challenges her god which is a rather, uhh, radical act and in classic literature themes as well as in the bible a sure sign of, err, not being that sane - on the brink of losing it. Sane people don't challenge the gods: "God, if you exist, strike me down here and now! You don't do it? Ha, you don't dare!" Challenging the gods is not at all sane, don't you think?
With the start of the second campaign and the fact that he is hunted all through Ashan it seems to be pretty clear that Isabel at least has an obsession. You don't need to read any rumors to get that.
Now, usually you don't need to see people foaming or a narrator that tells you, someone is mad like a rabid dog. There are subtile hints.
I mean, take the very first campaign map. Isabel has her first fight against PEASANTS. She COULD have had her first fight against, say a pack of Imps roaming around. But, no, she meets peasants that don't want to fight in her army. Sure, they are insolent, but she could react a bit more lenient. She is harsh, though. Iron hand and so on. It doesn't look like she would really CARE about their to-be-subjects.
So I think it is rather clear that Isabel is not to be meant to be the oh so cute oh so brave heroine. That's what I like about it.
You play her and she's not THAT much of a hero at least *I* can identify with. And it gets worse. No, she's not likable.
What is wrong with that?

[DarkMystery1979]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vicheron:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DarkMystery1979:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vicheron:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Having a look at the "real" (human) history I think that people and peoples have been slaughtered for less reason. For sure the slaughtering has been SPONSORED for less reason, so gimme a break here. Human history as a story script would obviously be much more unbelievable than that.
Why should Isabel care for the fate of the Wizards in the Silver Cities? Is there even one good reason? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh yeah and history is such an interesting subject isn't it? People just love history; they can't get enough of it. Students go into history class filled with excitement and awe. Oh wait, they don’t. History is a boring *** subject. In real life people do all sorts of stupid things for no good reason but there’s no drama or excitement in any of that. Heroes of Might and Magic 5 is a game, it should provide the drama that does not exist in reality. The game shouldn’t reflect reality, it should give plot and character development at a pace that would allow the story to retain our attention and interest

The reason why Isabel shouldn’t have gone to war with the wizards has nothing to do with whether or not she cared about the wizards, it has to do with the legion of demons slaughtering their way through the Griffin Empire. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

history is more exciting and dramatic than any game i played so far and looking at games a lot of them seem to be based on them. e.g. civ4, RoN, C&C series, Age of Empires series

boring? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you serious? With the exception of periods with very detailed records and accounts, history is boring. There's little plot or character development in history. When you read about historical figures, you don't always get to know the things you want to know or even the things you need to know. With fiction, the writer can tell you anything and everything about the characters, the settings, the events taking place, etc. With fiction, the writer can add anything they want to spice up the story. With history, you already know the basic outline of story, you're not going to get surprised very often. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

can't disagree more, you don't study history do you? its so rich and detailed thats it is impossible to know all the exciting Events of a famous Person or Event in detail. And Fiction is most exciting if mixed with history. Like: What would have happened to the 3rd Holy Crusade if Emperor Barbarossa would have not had his death "accident"(Obviously assassines murdered him) and would have faced Saladin? he won actually the first 2 encounters with him while having inferior troops? He was veteran on the battlefield and Saladin feared him. And he was going to unite with King Richard of England, who had yet to earn the title "Lionheart".

What was boring in these most exciting times? Just the fact we know the outcome?*lol* i suggest to start reading the book on page1.

[Justice]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vicheron:
[Oh yeah and history is such an interesting subject isn't it? People just love history; they can't get enough of it. Students go into history class filled with excitement and awe. Oh wait, they don’t. History is a boring *** subject. In real life people do all sorts of stupid things for no good reason but there’s no drama or excitement in any of that. Heroes of Might and Magic 5 is a game, it should provide the drama that does not exist in reality. The game shouldn’t reflect reality, it should give plot and character development at a pace that would allow the story to retain our attention and interest
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you must have had some pretty bad history teachers... There is plenty of drama and excitment in history... all you got to have is the immagination to see it once you read it instead fo thinking " this is boring, this is boring, this is broing, only those who are neerds or insane find this interresting, boooring, booooring... oh, shes... Ofcourse I knew Stalin would betray Hitler, Jean D Arc is far to thypical, boooring, Cæsar and Alexander dudes... My God they are annoying, who cares about what the did http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif"

Uh, I got a bit carried away http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif sorry if it offends you, more ment as a general note on most yout than an offense directed at you...

But else I find the story in V far to thin and not well enough explained... there are lot of vague hints and stuff like that, but I think that those who wouldn't like to read to much story would just skip the text events and the others would enjoy it... So why it must be so thin I don't understand http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Vicheron]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DarkMystery1979:
can't disagree more, you don't study history do you? its so rich and detailed thats it is impossible to know all the exciting Events of a famous Person or Event in detail. And Fiction is most exciting if mixed with history. Like: What would have happened to the 3rd Holy Crusade if Emperor Barbarossa would have not had his death "accident"(Obviously assassines murdered him) and would have faced Saladin? he won actually the first 2 encounters with him while having inferior troops? He was veteran on the battlefield and Saladin feared him. And he was going to unite with King Richard of England, who had yet to earn the title "Lionheart".

What was boring in these most exciting times? Just the fact we know the outcome?*lol* i suggest to start reading the book on page1. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
History can be interesting but history by itself, as a sequence of events, is not. Why do you think history is always dramatized? Think about what they do with documentaries. They put in background music and they hire famous actors who have great voices to narrate. There wasn’t tense music playing during the Invasion of Normandy and James Earl Jones wasn’t there describing the action. A truly unbiased and totally accurate portrayal of history would just show the sequence of events with rolling text describing them, no dramatic music, no James Earl Jones, and it would be pretty boring to most people.

[Justice]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DarkMystery1979:

can't disagree more, you don't study history do you? its so rich and detailed thats it is impossible to know all the exciting Events of a famous Person or Event in detail. And Fiction is most exciting if mixed with history. Like: What would have happened to the 3rd Holy Crusade if Emperor Barbarossa would have not had his death "accident"(Obviously assassines murdered him) and would have faced Saladin? he won actually the first 2 encounters with him while having inferior troops? He was veteran on the battlefield and Saladin feared him. And he was going to unite with King Richard of England, who had yet to earn the title "Lionheart".

What was boring in these most exciting times? Just the fact we know the outcome?*lol* i suggest to start reading the book on page1. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't believe it was assasins. Just because he and Saladin probably were the most influencial people at their time, it doesn't mean that he can't die a regular death by accident... And surrounded as he is said to have been by his troops, I doubt that they wouldn't have seen anything unless it was poison and I don't know how many kinds of poison just kill the person without any signs soe hours after it was taken... If he got it true something to drink just before, why was he then in the river and his armor when dying http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Else,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Oh what a nice ad hominem attack that draws us away from the real argument. Heck, mentioning of human history in the first place was a red herring. Human history is in no way related to this work of fiction. There’s no comparison between real life events and fantasy fiction, historical fiction maybe. Second, what am I ignorant of? Lack of interest is not
indicative of lack of knowledge. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And we humans just get our ideas from nothing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif why wasn't there any scienfiction about flying cars in 1200... or aliens for that matter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Vicheron]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Justice:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vicheron:
[Oh yeah and history is such an interesting subject isn't it? People just love history; they can't get enough of it. Students go into history class filled with excitement and awe. Oh wait, they don’t. History is a boring *** subject. In real life people do all sorts of stupid things for no good reason but there’s no drama or excitement in any of that. Heroes of Might and Magic 5 is a game, it should provide the drama that does not exist in reality. The game shouldn’t reflect reality, it should give plot and character development at a pace that would allow the story to retain our attention and interest
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you must have had some pretty bad history teachers... There is plenty of drama and excitment in history... all you got to have is the immagination to see it once you read it instead fo thinking " this is boring, this is boring, this is broing, only those who are neerds or insane find this interresting, boooring, booooring... oh, shes... Ofcourse I knew Stalin would betray Hitler, Jean D Arc is far to thypical, boooring, Cæsar and Alexander dudes... My God they are annoying, who cares about what the did http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sleepzzz.gif"

Uh, I got a bit carried away http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif sorry if it offends you, more ment as a general note on most yout than an offense directed at you... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

History is based on facts and facts are not contingent upon conjectures, opinions, or imagination. What you think to be the motivation for an event that took place in history is not relevant to history unless you have significant evidence supporting your hypothesis. Imagination is actually a detriment to history because you’re making guesses without evidence or worse changing the facts to fit your conjectures. History must be studied logically, you have to find the evidence and form a hypothesis based on that evidence, not the other way around. It’s a slow, methodical, and very consuming process that is not interesting to most people.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Justice:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Oh what a nice ad hominem attack that draws us away from the real argument. Heck, mentioning of human history in the first place was a red herring. Human history is in no way related to this work of fiction. There’s no comparison between real life events and fantasy fiction, historical fiction maybe. Second, what am I ignorant of? Lack of interest is not
indicative of lack of knowledge. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And we humans just get our ideas from nothing http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif why wasn't there any scienfiction about flying cars in 1200... or aliens for that matter http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are you talking about? The link between human history and the Heroes 5 storyline is minimal. There’s more of a connection between math and Heroes 5 than history and Heroes 5 since without math we wouldn’t have computers and this game wouldn’t exist. The link between human history and Heroes 5 is extraneous and in no way excuses or justifies the crappy storyline of the Heroes 5 campaigns.

[DarkMystery1979]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I don't believe it was assasins. Just because he and Saladin probably were the most influencial people at their time, it doesn't mean that he can't die a regular death by accident... And surrounded as he is said to have been by his troops, I doubt that they wouldn't have seen anything unless it was poison and I don't know how many kinds of poison just kill the person without any signs soe hours after it was taken... If he got it true something to drink just before, why was he then in the river and his armor when dying </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you have to study history much harder.

i did study the history of assassins source in the middle east and Saladin himself was threaten several times by assassins, first they wanted to kill him but first assassination attempt failed and he just got wounded, that was at a time were he was not that powerful and well known.

later saladin let put his men white sand on the floor so he can see footsteps of anyone who tries to get to thim and he had many guards around his bed. next moring he wake up a bread was found next to him with a dagger in it and a letter telling him to turn back with his army or he will die. this happened many times and saladin did what the assassins demanded each time cause he feared them a lot, so dude, fact is, those assassin could kill anyone they want no matter how famous or big his army was.

do you really believe these assasssin, the silent unseen death, could not handle to kill barbarossa when he is travelling with a rather mediocre sized army compared to those of saladin who had a lot of trouble with assassins, before?? thats a piece of cake for them. history does not know how they did it, but i am damn sure they did, cause there is MASSIVE evidence for it. Barbarossa just did not die in time or cause the water was too cold or of age.......this is ****.

assassins had no reasion to spare barbarossas life and that emperor was known to be a major threat to the middle east. To assassinate him was the perfect and most effecient solution. also, why should he just die by "accident" when he had a duel with saladin in few days? And yes, its hell as hard to believe such a seasioned veteran died just in a river by accident. i will not believe this ever.

[Justice]

I think not. Why are they using swords? Why are there angels? What has magic got to do with all of this, castles, wars... Where do all these things come from? Was it something someone just made up 5 years ago?

and if you think history just is about logic and only taking what is a known fact, then you can't have had it for more than up to high school and with a bad teacher. History is alos about guessing why and comming with a few proofs. The nature of humans, psychology, and why on earth shall we not use our immagination to see how the batles, travels, cities, ships, lands or watever looked like? There is no need to make history boring http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif and you really should try some books about history that are set up a bit differently than the normal schoolbooks... If you are fron Scandinavia I can reccomend you Jan Guillou and his Arn books, or the defender of the witches perhaps... There are tons of really good books, and more boring ones that you can make good yourself, and all of them are well enough done to use them as sources for gymnasium at least... Haven't tried uni yet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

to think history is boring is just sad, but if you are determined to think so there is really nothing I can do, is there?

[Justice]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DarkMystery1979:

you have to study history much harder.

i did study the history of assassins source in the middle east and Saladin himself was threaten several times by assassins, first they wanted to kill him but first assassination attempt failed and he just got wounded, that was at a time were he was not that powerful and well known.

later saladin let put his men white sand on the floor so he can see footsteps of anyone who tries to get to thim and he had many guards around his bed. next moring he wake up a bread was found next to him with a dagger in it and a letter telling him to turn back with his army or he will die. this happened many times and saladin did what the assassins demanded each time cause he feared them a lot.

do you really believe these assasssin, the silent unseen death, could not handle to kill barbarossa? thats a piece of cake for them. history does not know how they did it, but i am damn sure they did, cause there is MASSIVE evidence for it. Barbarossa just did not die in time or cause the water was too cold or of age.......this is ****.

assassins had no reasion to spare barbarossas life and that emperor was known to be a major threat to the middle east. To assassinate him wsa the perfect and most effecient solution. also, why should he just die by "accident" when he had a duel with saladin in few days? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i'm not good at Barbarosa, I'm only 17 so I can't have good knowledge about more than 3 - 5 periods and their culture, that is granted... And the Hassasins probably could do it, but I doubt they would have choosen such a place to do it, althoug I ofcourse believe that Salasin would have sent someone after Barbarosa, or someone else who wasn't as honourable... But I still think it is just the same as with lady Diane... How could she die in a common car crash... Well, people die in car crashes, people drown or get hearth attacks... No reason for that fameous or brilliant people shouldn't die from those things too...

[DarkMystery1979]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vicheron:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DarkMystery1979:
can't disagree more, you don't study history do you? its so rich and detailed thats it is impossible to know all the exciting Events of a famous Person or Event in detail. And Fiction is most exciting if mixed with history. Like: What would have happened to the 3rd Holy Crusade if Emperor Barbarossa would have not had his death "accident"(Obviously assassines murdered him) and would have faced Saladin? he won actually the first 2 encounters with him while having inferior troops? He was veteran on the battlefield and Saladin feared him. And he was going to unite with King Richard of England, who had yet to earn the title "Lionheart".

What was boring in these most exciting times? Just the fact we know the outcome?*lol* i suggest to start reading the book on page1. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
History can be interesting but history by itself, as a sequence of events, is not. Why do you think history is always dramatized? Think about what they do with documentaries. They put in background music and they hire famous actors who have great voices to narrate. There wasn’t tense music playing during the Invasion of Normandy and James Earl Jones wasn’t there describing the action. A truly unbiased and totally accurate portrayal of history would just show the sequence of events with rolling text describing them, no dramatic music, no James Earl Jones, and it would be pretty boring to most people. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

no backround music? you are wrong! seems you don't know the battle of "Austerlitz" in which Napoleon made his great victory. on all sides the armies of Austria, Russia and France used a lot of military musicans and a lot of them died during that battle cause they had to replace them several times. A russian general commented that it was like going into an opera. There was a lot music in battles, certainly not just in napoleonic times http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[DarkMystery1979]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Justice:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DarkMystery1979:

you have to study history much harder.

i did study the history of assassins source in the middle east and Saladin himself was threaten several times by assassins, first they wanted to kill him but first assassination attempt failed and he just got wounded, that was at a time were he was not that powerful and well known.

later saladin let put his men white sand on the floor so he can see footsteps of anyone who tries to get to thim and he had many guards around his bed. next moring he wake up a bread was found next to him with a dagger in it and a letter telling him to turn back with his army or he will die. this happened many times and saladin did what the assassins demanded each time cause he feared them a lot.

do you really believe these assasssin, the silent unseen death, could not handle to kill barbarossa? thats a piece of cake for them. history does not know how they did it, but i am damn sure they did, cause there is MASSIVE evidence for it. Barbarossa just did not die in time or cause the water was too cold or of age.......this is ****.

assassins had no reasion to spare barbarossas life and that emperor was known to be a major threat to the middle east. To assassinate him wsa the perfect and most effecient solution. also, why should he just die by "accident" when he had a duel with saladin in few days? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i'm not good at Barbarosa, I'm only 17 so I can't have good knowledge about more than 3 - 5 periods and their culture, that is granted... And the Hassasins probably could do it, but I doubt they would have choosen such a place to do it, althoug I ofcourse believe that Salasin would have sent someone after Barbarosa, or someone else who wasn't as honourable... But I still think it is just the same as with lady Diane... How could she die in a common car crash... Well, people die in car crashes, people drown or get hearth attacks... No reason for that fameous or brilliant people shouldn't die from those things too... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


but Saladin was honourable! at least on the surface. some things are left to fiction. but i am very sure Barbarossa died not by accident. thats too unbelievable. as i said everyone in the middle east did know how much of a threat he is, more than any other european invader before. and he did allready win 2 rather big encounters with saladin. also tried to persuade saladin into a honour duel between kings in which saladin agreed on. the only way to get out of this whole mess for saladin was certainly to use the assassins, maybe he made a deal with them or someone else did recruit them. thats left to fiction, sure is he did not die by accident. think of it: he comes with his huge army and is well known by his opponents and the only one who died in the river was the king not 1 of his soldiers! it prolly was one of the best assassinations in history i say! and far from impossible if you know what those assassins could all do.

so....enough hijacking i guess.

[Vicheron]

Well this is getting way off topic. We should return to the discussion about how Isabel is an idiot. The game's story could have been a lot better if it wasn't so character driven. Heroes 2 and 3 had nice campaigns because they presented situations where you don't need to know anything about the characters. All you needed to know was the big picture with how the war is going. That's the way the Command and Conquer series presented its story, you're a general in this global struggle between two world powers and the focus is on the big events and not the individual characters, except Kane.

[call_me_ishmael]

Ever notice how pale Isabel is? Maybe there's less to her than meets the eye.

If you'd like to read a fascinating (imo), broad-scope book on history (not character driven), pick up Guns, Germs, and Steel, by Gerard Diamond. It explains how geographical factors led Eurasians to dominate the world.

[joergino]

I think you mean Jared Diamond (who also wrote a nice book named "The Third Chimpanzee").

[WarlockSoL]

Spoilers ahead:


First off, yes, Isabel is crazy. And I even understand all the war mongering and all that. But having a demon baby inside you is no excuse for pure stupidity. I mean, the baby probably made her a bit crazy and I can understand her not making the most rational decisions, but come on. She was clearly in control there. You saw her at the end of the Necro campaign. I just don't buy her consorting with Necromancers, especially *after* the Nicoli situation (you can say they "enslaved" them or whatever, but honestly there were Haven forces attacking you in every campaign afterwards).

So yeah, crazy yes. Stupid, definately yes :P

[H5forem]

Well... in the expasnion when she will be diabolic maybe she will be dangerously smart... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

[WiTcH.CrAfT]

Sorry H5forem but I don't think that such a dangerously low IQ can be brought back on par or above normal people.. even with the aid of Hell and the Sovereign himself. She is so stupid that she makes amebas and other bacteria look like little floating Einsteins.

Edit note: And Markal did a cheap ripoff form Sandro much worstly and bluntly executed AND she still followed him... sometimes I think people like her should be hanged becuase her stupidity may spread to the masses she controls.

[DarkMystery1979]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WiTcH.CrAfT:
Sorry H5forem but I don't think that such a dangerously low IQ can be brought back on par or above normal people.. even with the aid of Hell and the Sovereign himself. She is so stupid that she makes amebas and other bacteria look like little floating Einsteins.

Edit note: And Markal did a cheap ripoff form Sandro much worstly and bluntly executed AND she still followed him... sometimes I think people like her should be hanged becuase her stupidity may spread to the masses she controls. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What a passionate speech, you must really love her! ;-) But, why not just kill her and make her undead, so at least she will act in smarter ways, meaning, only driven by low insticts like the hunger for the blood of the living. ;-)

[MaDcRaZy2KS]

who cares, agrawl and tieru seem to be the only character in the whole campaign worth mentionning, the rest just bad. Markal doesn't look evil enough at all, add some more evilness to him.