Steel Rain Plus - an advanced loitering munition

[atacms]

http://www.janes.com/press/images/p1191228.jpg

This notional concept drawing shows the key constituent elements, including multiple designators in the nose of the carrier. Six such -carriers would be packaged in a container/launcher compatible with MLRS or HIMARS launch vehicles. (US Army)


From Jane's IDR, it states that as Steel Rain Plus is a loitering munition, it has "huge potential to provide precision strike capabilities against targets in both deep and close battles, explaining why this concept has once again captured the military imagination.

Loiterers are perceived as being particularly effective for dealing with pop-up targets and fast-moving targets at extended ranges with one of the biggest sources of debate being their wider use in support of terrestrial operations and the fact that they operate on the boundary between army and air force responsibilities."

Each munition would carry 8-10 laser guided glider submunitions fitted with about 10 pounds of explosives, which are not too powerful making them handy for urban environments. The parent missile would be able to loiter for up to 20 hours!

This would be cool for the Ghost units in Endwar to call in and then designate each submunition.

What do you guys think? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[atacms]

http://www.janes.com/press/images/p1191228.jpg

This notional concept drawing shows the key constituent elements, including multiple designators in the nose of the carrier. Six such -carriers would be packaged in a container/launcher compatible with MLRS or HIMARS launch vehicles. (US Army)


From Jane's IDR, it states that as Steel Rain Plus is a loitering munition, it has "huge potential to provide precision strike capabilities against targets in both deep and close battles, explaining why this concept has once again captured the military imagination.

Loiterers are perceived as being particularly effective for dealing with pop-up targets and fast-moving targets at extended ranges with one of the biggest sources of debate being their wider use in support of terrestrial operations and the fact that they operate on the boundary between army and air force responsibilities."

Each munition would carry 8-10 laser guided glider submunitions fitted with about 10 pounds of explosives, which are not too powerful making them handy for urban environments. The parent missile would be able to loiter for up to 20 hours!

This would be cool for the Ghost units in Endwar to call in and then designate each submunition.

What do you guys think? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[zsorrell]

definitley it would be just saying the word and the bombs there. but they would be really easy target for drones. I'm wondering if there are any weapons against drones, or at least countermeasures.

[snapkracklepop]

I assume this would be in their since this is a big part of the FCS.

[atacms]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zsorrell:
definitley it would be just saying the word and the bombs there. but they would be really easy target for drones. I'm wondering if there are any weapons against drones, or at least countermeasures. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What would be an easy target, the Steel Rain missile or the submunitions, I would think perhaps the missile, but definitely not the submunitions. Those would just have to be veered off via ECM, electronic countermeasures, by jamming the laser.

Yet a counter to ECM, or ECCM, would be to track the target as it's last known designated point and then switch off to another type of sensor.

Actually a counter to the submunitions would be the APS or active protection system could shoot these down as they approach the targeted vehicle. I'm pretty sure it was mentioned in one of the video interviews that the armored vehicles have such protections.

[snapkracklepop]

It would depend on the submunitions, some of them are very small and drop in large numbers, or drop by a small parachute.

[atacms]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by snapkracklepop:
It would depend on the submunitions, some of them are very small and drop in large numbers, or drop by a small parachute. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, devs should they use this in the game can use whatever number they want, but for this particular munition the number of submunitions are 8-10, but I guess your point is if there are several, they won't all be able to be stopped, is that what you were pointing out?

[snapkracklepop]

Sort of I was saying with this sometimes they use differant munitions for differant jobs,so if you had alot of munitions they all would'nt be stopped. I've heard about a AT submunition that weighs two pounds and is dropped by parachute.

[PrinceCaspian5]

If they were to put this into the game they would have to shorten the time it can loiter above the battle field, otherwise, everyone will just put a few of those up at the beginning of the match and they would just stay up there protecting you from a surprise attack unless they are shot down or you just use them on anything (which I don't think would be a good idea because I think these would be less effective then regular artillery, but they would be good at hitting a surprise attack while your regular artillery sets up to hit the attacking enemy hard so using them against just anything would be a waste). I think that it would be better if you shortened the time to just a few minuets, I am not sure how long exactly because that would depend on how long an average game would last.

[atacms]

I guess they could balance them out by being able to be detected by AA units so long as those AA units are equipped with some anti-stealth detection or as you said maybe just shorten their loitering time.

WOuld be cool if they have something like this. Act of War: High Treason has loitering missiles, but the AI was stupid since you had to micro all the time even though it was supposed to hit anything that was in the guard/attack zone. People complained that it was a spam unit, but they balanced it by being easy to shoot down. I prefer they balance it by perhaps cost.

[PrinceCaspian5]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by atacms:
I guess they could balance them out by being able to be detected by AA units so long as those AA units are equipped with some anti-stealth detection or as you said maybe just shorten their loitering time.

WOuld be cool if they have something like this. Act of War: High Treason has loitering missiles, but the AI was stupid since you had to micro all the time even though it was supposed to hit anything that was in the guard/attack zone. People complained that it was a spam unit, but they balanced it by being easy to shoot down. I prefer they balance it by perhaps cost. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Cost would be a good trade off, I would pay to have something like that protecting me so that if any surprise attack springs up I could just send that at them that attack, maybe I could take out the first tank (or whatever vehicle) in the column to slow them down while I organize a better defense.

[zsorrell]

I was asking about if this was vulverable to drones earlier. Not ECM. The drones make it seem like anything put into the air can be taken out instantly, including loitering munitions. The drones are too much of an offset if it makes air power almost useless. It would also make loitering munitions useless because it may be shot down before a soldier designates a target.

[atacms]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by zsorrell:
I was asking about if this was vulverable to drones earlier. Not ECM. The drones make it seem like anything put into the air can be taken out instantly, including loitering munitions. The drones are too much of an offset if it makes air power almost useless. It would also make loitering munitions useless because it may be shot down before a soldier designates a target. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a very technical question that will require more research especially as there have been no performance specs released for this missile.

Having said that, it is essentially similar to a loitering drone so it increases its vulnerability due to it following the same orbit (flight pattern). What it does have going for it, is its size, fighter aircraft would have a tough time trying to shoot it down if they can't slow down enough, however some AA missiles are being developed that are very agile and can turn easily.

The key to survivability is that this loitering missile try to get its submunitions launched. Those are smaller and those are the ones I would say would be very survivable.

In regards to shooting enemy drones down, DARPA is actually working on something like that called the Peregrine.

As the following link to DefenseTech shows, UAV's are hard to track down, so likewise would be the Steel Rain as it is essentially sharing the characteristics of a drone.

Check out the below link for drones, Iraq's use of drones early in the war, and DARPA's program for a drone killer, the Peregrine.
http://www.defensetech.org/archives/002369.html

[atacms]

Janes' Defense removed the pic so that's why the image isn't working, but thought you guys might still appreciate the information and discussion.

Wanted to revive the topic of loitering munitions and my hopeful wish that they be included in Endwar.

What do you guys new to the forum think?

[Dakko33]

this is completely off topic but how do i defeat the combat drones they set up around bases?

[Silver-Hawk-Red]

Tanks and Riflemen are best. Artillery works as well. (excluding Raid missions.)

[atacms]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silver-Hawk-Red:
Tanks and Riflemen are best. Artillery works as well. (excluding Raid missions.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And here I thought Silver Hawk was digging thru old posts to see what cool wartech I mentioned long ago. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

[Dakko33]

I think its ******ed that they wont let you use artillery in raid missions

[BakyardShniper]

I like the idea, as i'm sure you do, Nick http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , but this would be gamebreakingly overpowering for the JSF.
There would need to be something for the EF and the SGB as well, or at least something to counter it. Without that, it does not fit within the rock-paper-scissors gameplay of EndWar.

BTW, Why didn't you post this in the Tech thread?

[BakyardShniper]

Another thing; Isn't there some kind of UAV that is slated to have this capability? I believe i saw one a while ago.
It's a swarmdrone UAV, with IIRC 3 warheads stored in the body. As it flies over target, a warhead is released.
It communicates with the rest of the swarm to make sure there is no target redundancy, i.e. not attacking a "virtual" target after the actual target has been destroyed. It also has a "kamikaze" option.

Sadly I can't remember the name of the project.Looks a bit like the Switchblade on steroids.

[Silver-Hawk-Red]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by atacms:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silver-Hawk-Red:
Tanks and Riflemen are best. Artillery works as well. (excluding Raid missions.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And here I thought Silver Hawk was digging thru old posts to see what cool wartech I mentioned long ago. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's very cool. But the issue is, any subsonic weapon is now a fat target for any modern air defense network.

[aznpwnerp]

Wow, that looks really cool! I wish we had that upgrade...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[atacms]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silver-Hawk-Red:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by atacms:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silver-Hawk-Red:
Tanks and Riflemen are best. Artillery works as well. (excluding Raid missions.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And here I thought Silver Hawk was digging thru old posts to see what cool wartech I mentioned long ago. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's very cool. But the issue is, any subsonic weapon is now a fat target for any modern air defense network. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then again our PAC-3 didn't intercept that Iraqi cruise missile which was by no means a sophisticated missile following a devious and hard to track strike ingress route.

[BakyardShniper]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by atacms:
Janes' Defense removed the pic so that's why the image isn't working, but thought you guys might still appreciate the information and discussion.

Wanted to revive the topic of loitering munitions and my hopeful wish that they be included in Endwar.

What do you guys new to the forum think? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have a photobucket/ image storing account somewhere, you might want to copy the images to that, and then use that link on the EW forums. Not all sites allow you to hotlink, as it burns up bandwith and is seen as "bandwith" tefth by many. Some forums even make it a bannable offense.

[Silver-Hawk-Red]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by atacms:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silver-Hawk-Red:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by atacms:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silver-Hawk-Red:
Tanks and Riflemen are best. Artillery works as well. (excluding Raid missions.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And here I thought Silver Hawk was digging thru old posts to see what cool wartech I mentioned long ago. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's very cool. But the issue is, any subsonic weapon is now a fat target for any modern air defense network. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then again our PAC-3 didn't intercept that Iraqi cruise missile which was by no means a sophisticated missile following a devious and hard to track strike ingress route. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh? Still have the link to that accident?

[BakyardShniper]

SCUD's aint cruise missiles. They're SRBM's, or tactical ballistic missiles, if you prefer that.

IIRC PAC-3 wasn't around untill AFTER the first gulf war.

[atacms]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silver-Hawk-Red:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by atacms:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silver-Hawk-Red:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by atacms:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silver-Hawk-Red:
Tanks and Riflemen are best. Artillery works as well. (excluding Raid missions.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And here I thought Silver Hawk was digging thru old posts to see what cool wartech I mentioned long ago. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's very cool. But the issue is, any subsonic weapon is now a fat target for any modern air defense network. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then again our PAC-3 didn't intercept that Iraqi cruise missile which was by no means a sophisticated missile following a devious and hard to track strike ingress route. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh? Still have the link to that accident? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

See p. 1 of this link
http://cns.miis.edu/reports/pdfs/gorm_msl.pdf


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BakyardShniper:
SCUD's aint cruise missiles. They're SRBM's, or tactical ballistic missiles, if you prefer that.

IIRC PAC-3 wasn't around untill AFTER the first gulf war. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Oh, Baykard, I didn't think you would believe that I'd mistake a Scud and call it a cruise missile. I was actually referring to Operation Iraqi Freedom and the Iraqi use of modified Silkworm missiles, not the first Gulf War where we used PAc 1's to attempt to intercept Scuds. PAC-3 in OIF 1, were operational and did have hit to kill intercepts of Iraqi ballistic missiles, something few folks know.

[BakyardShniper]

I'm not entirely up to speed on Patriot or the current PAC, but i don't think they are meant to actually intercept something as "small" as a silkworm. You can use them for it, but the system is not intended to do this. I've heard that PDB-6 for the software will give it a better chance of intercepting atmospheric vehicles such as cruise missiles.

[Silver-Hawk-Red]

The PAC-3 is an ABMS anyway, it's not meant to deal with Cruise Missiles. Leave that to the Avenger or Linebacker.

[atacms]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Silver-Hawk-Red:
The PAC-3 is an ABMS anyway, it's not meant to deal with Cruise Missiles. Leave that to the Avenger or Linebacker. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Still PAC's are never deployed in a pure configuration, they also get PAC-2's also so that ADA battery should have been able to intercept it as Patriot's mission has always started out as an air defense missile rather than ATBM.

[DNAz5646]

So what type of sub munitions are there?

[atacms]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DNAz5646:
So what type of sub munitions are there? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It could use a variation of the BAT submunition called Viper Strike which is laser guided.

[Dakko33]

BakyardShniper, wtf how'd u know my name???? Are u stalking me????