PDA

View Full Version : Bahro and D'ni -- Identical Bases on Number Systems



Boyue65
08-24-2005, 01:14 PM
It's interesting to note that the Bahro and the D'ni have identical number systems; they're both ultimately base 5. The presentation is a little different, but the end result is the same -- hard to say if the Bahro go as high as 25 in single digits, but it's still interesting nonetheless. In that cultural sense the Bahro and the D'ni are quite alike.

Number systems, Linking capability... one wonders if the Bahro and the D'ni are alike in other ways as well.

Boyue65
08-24-2005, 01:14 PM
It's interesting to note that the Bahro and the D'ni have identical number systems; they're both ultimately base 5. The presentation is a little different, but the end result is the same -- hard to say if the Bahro go as high as 25 in single digits, but it's still interesting nonetheless. In that cultural sense the Bahro and the D'ni are quite alike.

Number systems, Linking capability... one wonders if the Bahro and the D'ni are alike in other ways as well.

JustBrett
08-24-2005, 02:42 PM
The D'ni number system is base 25. (Just because 25 is a multiple of 5 does not mean the system is "ultimately" base 5. Our number system is also based on a number that is a multiple of 5.) The base of a system with positional notation is determined by the number of digits in the system. In our base-10 notation we have 10 digits (0-9). In D'ni notation there are 25 digits (0-24).

From what we've seen of the Bahro system so far, it appears to be an additive notation -- like Roman numerals or Narayani numerals -- rather than positional. This means that it cannot be spoken of as having a base at all. We have not seen a digit for zero yet, and the digits we have seen only go up to 15. If the Bahro do use a positional notation and have a way of representing zero, then the evidence we have to date suggests that it is base 16. While there could be more digits than we've seen, there is no reason at this point for presuming this is so, and no reason for presuming the number is more likely to be 25 than 18 or 56.

Boyue65
08-24-2005, 09:58 PM
I'm aware that the system is, digitally speaking, base 25. However, each number's symbol is created based around a derivative of one of five initial designs. Ultimately, with all of the manipulation stripped away, you have five basic numbers. They are then changed in some way to represent a number larger than themselves, with some multiple of five added onto the initial symbol, until the system hits 25. I can understand why it stopped there -- any more, and it would become unwieldy.

There is a Bahro -0- on the board where the numerical solution to the Noloben chamber is, once you reflect it. It's the circle with the dot in the middle of it -- much like a D'ni -0-.

To counter my own point, there was a post brought up on a previous thread with a reference to a "D'ni B", or an alternate form of D'ni numbers. My question is: does anyone know anything about this?

JustBrett
08-25-2005, 04:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Boyue65:
There is a Bahro -0- on the board where the numerical solution to the Noloben chamber is, once you reflect it. It's the circle with the dot in the middle of it -- much like a D'ni -0-. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
There are symbols other than numbers on that wall, so how do you know the symbol you're talking about is a zero, rather than, say, the Bahro word for "cheese"? What evidence do you have that justifies stating this as fact?

Boyue65
08-26-2005, 02:08 AM
Continuity within the given set, and an assumption based on the (above explained) admittedly dubious relationship between D'ni numbers and Bahro numbers, in terms of symbol construction.

Eat_My_Shortz
08-26-2005, 09:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">how do you know the symbol you're talking about is a zero, rather than, say, the Bahro word for "cheese"? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Mr Zebe D
08-26-2005, 09:36 AM
The bahro have a symbolic representation for an element in Esher's code representation of 1 to 15.

halpin1942
09-29-2005, 10:36 PM
HI to everyone.

If you still have MystV demo on your PCs, did anyone tried asking the bahro creature, through the slate, if there is a 0 number?.
ex: draw a formula like 1-1= or 1-1= ?
yan http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

Merijn_Hijmans
09-30-2005, 01:46 AM
[QUOTE]
There is a Bahro -0- on the board where the numerical solution to the Noloben chamber is, once you reflect it. It's the circle with the dot in the middle of it -- much like a D'ni -0-. [QUOTE]
The 'continuity-theory', which was spoken of as well in this thread, would leave you to conclude that in combination with the 'similarity to D'ni numbers-theory' the circle with the dot is zero. Drawing this symbol (in Noloben) makes the Bahro put the slate on it´s ´zero´ position. Meaning that the slate is transferred to it´s starting position from where no action has been taken with it. Making the order once more puts the slate back again once more, but now to the pedestal on Direbo.
A more complicated theorie could accompany (is this correct english?), but also break the latter;
hte symbols for Atrus and Katran are the square and the cirlce, both with the dot in the middle, respectively a square and a round one. Now two assumptions must be made: Bahro name each other, and Bahro came to know of a gender-difference only because of their interactions with the D´ni.
A simple circle-with-dot could not possibly mean ´Katran´ coincidentally, especially not when Atrus is ´coincidentally´ written as a square.
So the circle is not her Bahro-written-name. A logical conclusion would be that it stands for female, mother (Yeesha drew them!) or woman then.
Finally my conclusion follows: the character for zero and female are the same because the Bahro had no concept of female before, therefore giving the female (D´ni) the ´non-existing´ character.
Others might state that it is simply the mother symbol, and therefore the Bahro bring the slate to it´s ´mother´ position. But one must assume that mother is also the bringer of life for the Bahro, making literal translations like ´mothership´ from their language to ours / D´ni possible.
Right now my study calls but you just think about this and drop your own theories!

Tweek
09-30-2005, 07:21 AM
I think its pretty much a case of the glyphs on the outside are bahro numerals and on the inside are Eshers numerals (encoded I suppose given the nature of the area) so he knows which symbols represent which numbers.

Tweek

Bhob
10-03-2005, 08:01 PM
Just an observation... The symbols inside/outside have a direct correspondence, and the circle with the dot inside matches one vertical slashmark, so it would seem to be "1", not zero. Is it possible that one set of symbols is a number representation while the other set represents spoken words? I mean, could "a filled-in triangle" equate to "a circle with two vertical lines through it" in the same way that "seven" equates to "7" ?

There's also the possibility that a certain symbol could have other meanings as well, depending on the context. After all, we have words that have different meanings (read, polish, tomb) and even different pronunciations depending on the surrounding text. We also use symbols the stand for words and concepts... # is used for "pound" and % is "percent" and so on. Who's to say that a symbol that represents a number couldn't also represent an object or a concept in some foreign language?

Back to the original question though... It's not so strange, really. Our own base ten system came from the fact that we have ten digits on our two hands. Whether D'ni is base five or base twenty-five, it's easy to see that it came from the same source; either five digits on a hand or five digits times five digits. With the Bahro I'm not too sure, but it could be from having five main appendages on the body (wings not withstanding; of all the Bahro I've seen there was only one that flew, so I'll take that to mean it was special and not the norm). Five shows up in nature rather frequently, so they could have picked it up from anywhere. It might even be that they adopted and adapted the number system used by their "masters" over those many centuries of captivity.

I think that what's stranger than all of this is that the D'ni alphabet turned out to be a rather simple substitution code for English. The only documented contact between D'ni and the surface, up to that point, was Tianna, and both languages were supposed to be well established before she found her way down through the Great Shaft.

Eat_My_Shortz
10-04-2005, 01:06 AM
I didnt know it was possible to write Bahro numbers on the slate at all... I tried it a bit in the demo with no results.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think that what's stranger than all of this is that the D'ni alphabet turned out to be a rather simple substitution code for English. The only documented contact between D'ni and the surface, up to that point, was Tianna, and both languages were supposed to be well established before she found her way down through the Great Shaft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Er.. dude D'ni is a full language... what substitution code???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D'ni_language
If you use it as a simple substitution code I believe Alahmnat called it "D'nenglish" and it's usually frowned upon.

Mr Zebe D
10-04-2005, 08:32 AM
It's all just a code for Esher's lab. He even says so. You're picking a lock by taking his index of 1 to 15 and seeing what arbitrary bahro symbol he's mapped it to. The bowls of water then give you the combination.

Alahmnat
10-04-2005, 12:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Merijn_Hijmans:
Drawing this symbol (in Noloben) makes the Bahro put the slate on it´s ´zero´ position. Meaning that the slate is transferred to it´s starting position from where no action has been taken with it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, anything the Bahro don't understand tends to get the Slate taken back to the first pedestal in the Linking Bubble.

Bhob
10-04-2005, 07:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I think that what's stranger than all of this is that the D'ni alphabet turned out to be a rather simple substitution code for English. The only documented contact between D'ni and the surface, up to that point, was Tianna, and both languages were supposed to be well established before she found her way down through the Great Shaft. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Er.. dude D'ni is a full language... what substitution code???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D'ni_language
If you use it as a simple substitution code I believe Alahmnat called it "D'nenglish" and it's usually frowned upon.[/QUOTE]

Frowned upon or not, in Uru there were many notebooks. By doing a little work it's possible to descipher the names above the notebooks using the English translations on the covers of them and discover the whole alphabet. Then, using that, you can read every D'ni text that's been published, in English. Try that with any other language...

Er, dude, D'ni is an imaginary language, with only a few strange words. The rest of it is English written with a different set of symbols.

I'm not trying to take anything away from the creators of Myst and its sequels, because there is an immense body of work here and I respect that. In fact, I revel in it, and I'm saddened to think that this may be the last of them. But compare this 'full language' with those presented in JRR Tolkien's work and you'll see just how far short of that mark they came. Not that they were trying; if they had actually invented a full language it would have been impossible for the vast majority of us to decipher it. The study of unknown languages is a science unto itself. You don't have to trust me on this, I'm sure that someone has already published the transcriptions of various D'ni texts somewhere for you to examine at your leisure.

Alahmnat
10-05-2005, 12:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Bhob:
Frowned upon or not, in Uru there were many notebooks. By doing a little work it's possible to descipher the names above the notebooks using the English translations on the covers of them and discover the whole alphabet. Then, using that, you can read every D'ni text that's been published, in English. Try that with any other language... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Try reading the note in the Kadish Tolesa Vault using your transliteration method. I guarantee you it won't make a darn bit of sense. The D'ni language may be fictional, and may not have a dictionary-sized book of words for us to draw from, but that doesn't mean it's all transliterated English, just like the stuff in Lord of the Rings isn't transliterated English. In fact, with only a couple of exceptions, none of the content in Riven, Exile, or Uru is D'nenglish (and don't credit me for that term, it's been around for some time). The words around the Golden Superdome (Riven), as well as all of the text in the Gateroom (Riven), the text on Gehn's desk in Age 233 (Riven), the writing on the Releeshahn Book (Exile), the writing on the top of Kerath's Arch (Uru), the Ferry Terminal Building (Uru), the Library interior (Uru), the Classroom note (Uru), and the Kadish Vault note (Uru) are all completely D'ni. There's no English anywhere in them. In addition, the map that originally came with the hardcover copy of The Book of Ti'ana is covered in D'ni that cannot be transliterated into English (a copy is available here (http://www.dpwr.net/forums/index.php?act=module&module=gallery&cmd=si&img=192)). A couple of the D'ni words, when transliterated, are spelled the same as a couple of English words, but their meaning is different. The only instances of D'nenglish in the games I can think of are the text above the golden Survey Island elevator in Riven (which was placeholder text that never got changed) and the text on the lamps in a few of the 'hoods in Uru ("this is a lamp"). Names are, of course, a different matter, as they're basically the same in either language for obvious reasons.