Month 1 mini-artifact usage.... [Archive]

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

09-28-2007, 10:11 AM

I'm doing this to answer Elodin's accusations that Artificer simply can't be used until the end of the game. Now he wants me to use a normal map that's not resource rich. I've chosen a very common map, Heritage. It's got all the mines, but few stashes in your immediate vicinity. In the center of the map is a Dragon Utopia but by the time you can get there and take out those loose resources mini-artifacts shouldn't be a concern anyway. Also, since this is for the general player, I'm breaking with my long standing tradition and I'm doing this map on Hard difficulty instead of Heroic simply because not many players truthfully play on heroic. If you ARE playing on heroic, you can still pull this off, but the mini-artifact usage will most likely be pushed back one week. On with the show.

Heritage. Hard Difficulty. Yellow starting position. Academy/random hero/random starting artifact.

Day 1: You begin with a tavern already built. My starting artifact was the Far Seeing Crown...durnit. My starting hero was Nathir. The heroes in my tavern were Jhora and Nur. I'm going for Jhora as my main hero and I purchase both heroes and transfer all troops to Jhora (and artifact). Build Gremlin Workshop. Purchase units & add to Jhora.

Jhora then takes out the Ore Mine with no losses. Transfers units to Nur who takes out Sawmill with no losses.

Day 2: Build Gremlin Manufactory. Nur brings troops back to town & upgrades gremlins. Shuttles troops back to Jhora who captures the Arena (archer guards) for +2 attack and 4 gremlin losses. Heading east towards Mercury mine fighting wandering monsters along the way.

Day 3: Build Mage Guild level 1. Continuing east fighting wandering monsters and hitting morale/luck boosters along the way (before and after battles). Multiple fights with no losses. I'm turtling my corner Gremlins with 3 stacks of regular gargoyles and I have one single golem standing separately. He's my lure. He gets sent forward to lure the enemy into gremlin range. At the end of combat I repair the killed lone golem. I also spam MotW with Eldritch Arrow to take out Squires and such.

Day 4: Build Blacksmith. 2 scout heroes are roaming as far as they can to reveal territory. (one is trailing along behind Jhora to pick up loose resources thus saving Jhora's movement points). Jhora takes Mercury Mine with only 8 gremlin losses. Grabs exp. from chests and gets Beginners Wand (+2 spell power). Continues along path towards planetarium (+1 spell power).

Day 5: Build Golem Forge. Jhora takes out Iron Golems guarding planetarium with no losses. I see no point in continuing on this path as I'm only seeing Treants blocking my path (and 2 other fights before them) with no goodies in sight. Heading back home. Scouts continue to hit powerups and pick up loose resources.

Day 6: Build Arcane Forge. Yes, that's right, YOU HEARD ME. Arcane forge in WEEK ONE. On heroic it has to wait until week two due to gold restraints and you must make a more direct path to the capitol. On hard or below, you've got more freedom so take advantage of it. Jhora is still heading home, but hitting all the morale/luck boosters along the way. Scout checks out the thieves den to scope out the competition. We're right on track.

Day 7: Build Town Hall. Jhora plans to spend the night in town to max out her spell points but they're alredy nearly at max. Builds her first mini-arti. A level 1 Armor Crushing orb for the Golem(s) for only 5 ore + 5 sulfur. Heads back out towards Gem Mine/Windmill. There's only on golem currently, but that'll change on....

Day 8: Build City Hall. In tavern I see Havez...*drools*...but I'm short on funds so he'll have to wait. But I plan on purchasing him before the weeks out. Jhora flags the Gem Mine with no losses...again. Windmill is guarded by "lots" of Vamp. Lords...they can wait a bit. Stats are currently at (2/0/9/4) Who says Wizards don't get spell power? :O)

Day 9: Build Altar of Wishes. No plan on buying them anytime soon though. I just want the treasure cave for the extra growth & income. Jhora heads to Sulfur mine but can't quite reach. I've just had 4 consecutive level-ups where Dark Magic was offered to Jhora. 8% my butt. :O) I'm down to 305 gold.

Day 10: Build Marketplace. Low on gold, but I need a cheap build to open up the path to the Treasure Cave for day 11. Jhora flags Sulfur Mine and heads towards Crystal Mine. I've currently got 99 Master Gremlins, 19 Iron Golems (with +1 armor crushing arti), and 24 Stone Gargoyles (in 3 stacks of 8 for turtling).

Day 11: Build Treasure Cave. My goals are to get the Gargoyle & Mage dwellings by the end of the week. Jhora flags Crystal Mine with no losses and finds Titan's Trident. Scouts take gold from treasure chests to compensate for delay on capitol. Jhora's currently at (2/1/10/4) with Expert Artificer, Advanced Sorcery, Arcane Training, Counterspell and all 3 Artificer secondaries. Surprisingly enough, I'm getting low on spell points due to some tough battles, so Jhora's heading home from here.

Day 12: Build Stone Parapet. Jhora hits the movement/morale booster and makes it back home at the end of her turn. She'll spend the night to recharge her batteries. But we're going for the windmill tomorrow. Time to poke some holes in some Vamps. :O)

Day 13: Build Mage Tower. Purchase Havez from Tavern and combine troops to Jhora. Jhora builds her second Mini-arti. Level 1 piercing for 5 ore + 5 crystal and places on Master Gremlin stack. Jhora now has 176 Master Gremlins (+2 attack), 37 Stone Gargoyles, 19 Iron Golems (+1 armor crushing). I can't quite reach the Vampires guarding the windmill, I guess we'll crush 'em tomorrow.

Day 14: Build Library. We're starting to get into the guts of the game so I need to figure out what's in the guild soon so I can plan my hero development. Early on you can get by with low level spells & gremlin/golems. Pretty soon, that won't be the case. Jhora clears the Windmill with ZERO losses (again) and gets offered basic War Machines. Finds Runic War Harness (+2 defense & knowledge). Heads back home.

Day 15: Builds Mage guild level 2. We've got Haste/Fire Trap/Weakness/Slow in level 1 and Endurance/Raise Dead/Vulnerability/Lightning Bolt in level 2. I'm definitely leaning towards Dark Magic now (and kinda kicking myself for not grabbing it earlier). Jhora heads out towards the Treants blocking the path to the west. At the end of my turn, Red's main hero kills the treants and retreats back under the shroud)~Vinrael (4/14/5/10) with multiple stacks including unicorns....I left a scout standing at the thieves den for just such an occasion. :O)

Day 16: Builds Mage Guild level 3. (Righteous Might/Phantom Forces/Confusion/Suffering) Oh yeah, we're going for Dark for sure. If you notice, I've gotten 5 of the 6 total Dark spell available in levels 1-3. And Wizards specialize in WHAT again? :O) Jhora continues along the western path hitting a +1 knowledge crystal along the way. We see Vinrael sneaking around some more...but we're cautiously optimistic that Jhora can crush him in a one-on-one.

Day 17: (Teal is vanquished...I missed who did it). I'm currently 3 sulfur short for building the Silver Pavilion and I start making plans to ship one Iron Golem back to town to shatter his mini arti if I don't find a sulfur cache. No Build...I'm saving for both the Capitol and the Raksashas before the end of the week. Occasionally gold from treasure chests will help me towards that goal.

Day 18: Build Capitol. It's later than I'd hoped, but all things considered it's not bad. I look at the day and I notice that I'll reach my sulfur demands by the mine production alone so I cancel my golem-mini-arti-crushing plans (although the scout/arti are still on route to town). Jhora sees a witch hut (has a scout learn it's contents of course) and sees Advanced War Machines...nice. I also come across a Red Hero. I was hoping for Vinrael, but I got a level 2 Anwen instead. I lost 12 gremlins in the battle. I forgot to purchase a Tent back in town. Doh! (yes, I've got the tent skill too)

Day 19: Builds Fort. Scout heads up towards the dragon utopia in the middle and hits a redwood observatory. Upon the reveal I see a Tome of Dark Magic (guarded by sev. AA's). Jhora hits the witch hut for Advanced War Machines then continues west towards the Merc. Camp and the stairs underground.

Day 20: Builds Silver Pavilion. (Orange is vanquished...yeah, I missed it again. No clue WHO did him in). Jhora hits the Mercenary Camp (+1 attack), picks up Sylanna's Cloak (50% reduction in earth damage) and then peeks underground to see what's up there. I spot Red's Main hero Vinrael underground.

Day 21: Builds Citadel. My scout returns to town and crushes the golem mini-arti (he's just going to be sittng there, so in case I need the funds, they're there...its only a level 1 anyway). Jhora hits the stash underground (multiple chests) with no losses and finds among the chests the Tarot Deck (+1 luck and knowledge) then heads back up towards the Dragon Utopia. Second scout spots Blue's Main Hero Helmar...who's LOADED. Surprisingly, Helmar passes up the scout and heads towards Jhora.

Day 22 (day 1 of week 4): Builds Resource Silo. Scout hero rebuilds the Golem's artifact and re-ships it out (with additional golems and m.gremlins) to Jhora. Jhora meanwhile spots Vinrael very close and decides to go for it. I don't want to stray too far as Helmar is still approaching my territory. The battle commences. Vinrael is Level 16 (4/16/5/13) while Jhora is Level 13 (4/4/11/11). Vinrael has Sprites/Dancers/Elves/Unicorns/M.Gremlins (most are +20, elves are at 9 and unicorns only 3). While Jhora still has only M.Grems (~170), 20+ gargs & 18 golems (shipped one back earlier). Final outcome...Jhora lost 23 Gremlins. That's it. Spoils of battle...
Necromancer Helm
Necklace of the Lion
Armor of Valor
Dragon Scale Shield (WooHoo!)
Jhora is now at 4/7/11/13. Low spell power my butt. And that's with me taking OFF the +2 spell power wand.

I decide not to build for the next couple of days because I'm pretty close to getting the Cloud Collesium.

From here on out, it should be pretty clear how to proceed. Once the basic dwellings are built you let them stockpile until you can no longer succeed with minimal losses with just golems/grems/gargs. Jhora will be heading back to town shortly to learn her level 3 spells (magic insight recieved earlier) and to upgrade her 2 mini-artis now that her knowledge is considerably higher. She'll then explore farther out and only head back after she's gotten a spell school (or two) to advanced. I'll ignore the secondaries for the spell schools for quite a while. MotW can compensate for a lack of mass spells for quite a while. Once you get your guild up to 5, from then on you should have no problem creating mini-artis for ALL your units. When you decide to upgrade a dwelling, break one down if need be, build your dwelling and re-build a lesser mini arti with your remaining funds. It's not that tough folks.

And lastly, to Elodin. If you feel this is a poor example, please feel free to let me know what map or difficulty setting you feel is a more fair example. Personally I think Heritage on Hard is a good middle-ground example. Truthfully I couldn't believe how much easier it was than on Heroic. The enemy stacks are SOOOO much smaller. *grin* But concerning the mini-artifact usage. You'll notice that they're not powerful. But they don't have to be. The -1 defense arti for the golems is all you really need early on. The repair keeps him fully stocked and the defense reduction makes your gremlins that much more potent. Getting some early sulfer piles will allow you to upgrade your Golems early and then the Armor Crushing arti really shines with the unlimited retaliations. All I'm saying is give it a try. Don't wait until you've built everything before you start using Artificer. You'll end up hurting yourself more than you think.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

09-28-2007, 10:11 AM

Elementalist.

09-28-2007, 11:04 AM

Chuck's revenge http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Good game but I think I'd rather get gargoyles and mages first week(not sure, can you in this map?) and aim for colossi before rakshasas unless I have gold issues. After capitol and castle I go straight to guild 4-5 which is usually not easy with rakshasas.

+2 attack may be good but as long as I have eldritch arrow/firetrap or warmachines it would be low on my priorities. And as for the armour decreasing is it really that effective on golems early?

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

09-28-2007, 11:22 AM

Gargoyles are the least of my concerns. Simply put, you usually get enough of them from recruited heroes and external dwellings to be able to skimp on that dwelling until week 2...heck even week 3 sometimes. It's simply not that important. The mages however....on hard, yeah I'd probably try to get it week one but it's not critical. On heroic, it's not very feasible to go for it week one. Heck, most times its not even possible. Mages are great units, but if you develop your hero right you can get by without them for quite a while. If I build them early, I still don't buy them until I HAVE to.

The +2 attack arti wasn't a priority. Not by any stretch of the imagination. But I was in town and I had the funds...so why not. If you've got the skill, take advantage of it. Depending upon what resources I have, I could've gone with one of many different options. Quicker firing with an initiative arti, double damage with a luck, or even a morale. Magic Protection usually has to wait due to the gem demands. But if you're facing a caster...just leave the grems out of it and go with the gargs & spells. Golems are too valuable to risk in a vulnerable battle like versus mages/druids.

The -1 defense arti is EXTREMELY effective for golems. Especially for steel golems. I attack ruthlessly and recklessly with them. I attack with them to the point where I'm almost TRYING to kill the golems off on purpose. Because all those attacks make it SOOO much easier for the Gremlins (and Gargs sometimes) to do their work. Plus you've usually got a large enough stack of Gremlins to repair an ENTIRE stack of golems. By the time you get to a 15 knowledge, the armor crushing bonus goes to -2 and then you'll REALLY see it shine. Early on, units like squires/minotaurs/overseers/plague zombies are quickly affected by that mini-arti.

Jolly-Joker

09-28-2007, 12:32 PM

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Elodin

09-28-2007, 01:03 PM

You invalidated the results by wimping out to go to hard instead of heroic. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

09-28-2007, 01:16 PM

LOL. I knew you'd say that. However, this wasn't just for YOU. It's for all Academy players. And most of them don't play Heroic (heck, most of them play on normal). If you insist, I can do another one with heroic. The delay in getting Mini-artifacts will still be approximately one week later than what I've got here. Even on Heroic I'm still only talking about one (or 2 at the most) level 1 artis in month one. That's simply NOT that expensive and you get some excellent use out of those resources that would otherwise just be sitting there.

Elodin

09-28-2007, 04:31 PM

I am interested in how you fare on heroic. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

09-28-2007, 06:29 PM

Re-doing one right now actually. I picked Dragon Pass. It's a much shorter map due to the fact that you're going for the Tear of Asha and not total domination. But it's still pretty average in terms of resources early on. The bigger stashes are in the pass, but that's usually in month 2.

I did have to restart this one several times though. I kept getting Havez either as my starting hero or in the tavern on day one. And we both know you want a "clean" run. *rolls eyes*

I also made an early error by forgetting the sawmill until day 5. It's a small error, but it may delay me a few days. I could restart, but I really hate doing that. I also refuse to do any re-loading too in SP. If you allow that, it's too easy to abuse it and replay until you get the perfect combat outcomes.

So, in general, I'll be getting mini's around week 3 or 4. Refresh them in week 5. By then I'll be maxed out in my town and then they start really rolling. If I've got Havez, then it could be week 2 or 3 that they start because I can take on larger stacks guarding bigger caches. We'll see how it goes.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

09-28-2007, 08:21 PM

Yeah, I did decide to restart. That screw up with the sawmill really came back and bit me on the @ss. It really pushed me back on many things by almost a full week. And that in turn altered my build strategy for nearly everything else. Truthfully, I still can't believe I did that. It's pretty much standard policy for me to get both the wood and ore mines on day one (two at the latest).

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

09-29-2007, 12:26 AM

Okay, to satisfy the skeptic out there. Here's one on HEROIC....

Dragon Pass

Heroic
Academy
Random Hero
Random Artifact

Starting hero: Galib
Starting arti: Windstrider boots
Starting color: Yellow

I had to re-start this map 3 times, because in 2 of them my random starting hero was Havez, and in the third one, he was in my tavern. And I certainly don't want to hear complaints about using Havez. And it sure felt weird automatically passing on him. But to ease his pain....I'll relent. :O)

Day 1: Build tavern. Heroes for hire: Nur and Vladimir. Purchased Nur as my main hero and transferred troops and arti to her. Galib heads for the nearby learning stone and gets resourcefulness (pretty common for first level up with Galib). He'll now be in charge of picking up ALL resources...loose and from buildings. He heads back towards the sawmill because....Nur heads out for the Sawmill (seeing as how I completely forgot it last time...Doh!) and then back towards the Ore Mine.

Day 2: Build Gremlin Workshop. Nur stops into town on the way to the Ore mine to grab more gremlins. Kills sprites while losing around 15 grems. Unfortunately, I'm one step away from flagging the Ore mine. I'll hit it tomorrow while heading south to gather golems from the external dwelling there. Galib picks up the wood then a campfire before heading towards the Ore mine to get the loose stuff there.

Day 3: Build Blacksmith. With a nearby golem forge, I want to leverage that dwelling. So we'll get the in-town dwelling in week one for certain. Nur grabs the ore mine, golem dwelling and heads east. Galib hits the obelisk on his way to the ore stash.

Day 4: Build Golem Forge. Nur hits the fairy ring after bypassing the minotaur guarded sulfur mine. Gets an Elemental Waistband from a chest. The southern pass is blocked by a hoard of Devils. Galib is scooping up stuff that some careless litter'er left behind. Messy, messy heroes. :O)

Day 5: Build Mage Guild level 1. Nur is feelin' frisky. She gets MotW from that second chest, then says ˜screw it' and goes for the Sulfur mine. It's got 40+ Minotaur Guards and she's got 50+ gremlins, 10 golems and about 15-20 gargs. Well, I lost 1 golem and 8 gargs. :O) She's now heading east towards the gremlin dwelling. Galib picked up more goodies and spied some vampires guarding the mercury mine to the far south. I'll be needing that pretty soon, so instead of backtracking the entire map, I'll grab some spells, upgrade the grems and head south. Galib should start headin' north for the waterwheel & windmill. I probably can't reach them this week, but it'll get me going for a good routine starting next week.

Day 6: Build Town hall. Nur continues east clearing the Garden of the Wee folk and then the Arena (+2 attack chosen). Also learned Basic War Machines. Since she's out there, the gremlin upgrade can wait. Galib is still south of the town, so I'll head towards the Garden of the Wee folk to hit it on day one and start my resource gathering run towards the north.

Day 7: Build Stone Parapet. Nur takes out a hoard of P.Zombies at the cost of 2 gargs & 2 golems, but gets a nice prize. Upon leveling up, first aid. Now we're rolling. She makes her way towards town. Galib swipes the 2 gold stacks the zombies were guarding then heads towards the garden for day 1.

Day 8 (day 1 week 2): Build Gremlin Manufactory. Tavern offers Razzak and Wyngaal. Razzak's tempting, but I've got a good supply of golems coming in. I'll pass. Besides, I'll need the gold. Nur makes it to town and decides to stay the night. One, to top off her mana supply and two, to caravan troops from external dwellings for upgrading. After that it's off to kill some vampires and take the mercury mine. Galib hits the garden and heads north along the eastern mountain range.

Day 9: Build City hall. Galib continues north grabbing goodies and spots a hoard of AA's guarding the pass to Red's territory (which we now know is Inferno). Nur upgrades all her gremlins and buys the majority of her available troops. Gold reserves at 0. But so are my gems and mercury. Gems can be dealt with by the silo shortly. Mercury is coming up. Nur heads south for the Vamps.

Day 10: Build Marketplace. Galib takes gold from a chest and flags the gargoyle dwelling (caravans them to town). Also uncovers the crystal mine guarded by a hoard of steel golems. No problem. Nur, meanwhile, came up one step short of attacking the Vamps. Tomorrow, they're toast!

Day 11: Build Resource Silo. Need that gem income to start coming in. It may be almost a week before I can get north to get the mine. Galib did find it there just past the crystal mine. The gem is guarded by lots of blackbear riders. There's also a hill fort protected by some inquisitors and some Emerald Dragons guarding a cache...can't see the goodies yet, but I will soon enough. Galib turns the corner around the small lake and heads south towards the witch hut & the 2 mills. Nur wins losing only 7 gargs, flags the mercury mine and heads north to kill a throng of archers. That battle cost 32 grems and another 4 gargs. The archers are protecting a chest and the 4 leaf clover. I'll pick them up next turn.

Day 12: Build Arcane Forge. Nur grabs the goods and levels up with the chest. Taking Advanced War Machines. Until you get advanced, the tent really doesn't do enough. Nur's heading back home for spells and a tent. I'm sick of losing gremlins...even if it's just a couple of them. Galib gets dark magic from the witch hut and bypasses several chests (one unguarded) to try to reach both the Waterwheel and Windmill before the end of the week. Yesterday was a good day because I'd been on zero for both gems and mercury for a while now. Got both of them generating yesterday. Yea me. :O)

Day 13: Build Golem Foundry. I'm holding off on the guild so I can reach the mages sooner (and the library). We'll get a lot of good items rolling in this next upcoming week. Nur reaches town and decides to stay the night. I'll upgrade my golems tomorrow and maybe something else. Galib hits the waterwheel and nearly makes the windmill. This is timing out very well.

Day 14: Build Obsidian Parapet. We're close to the mage tower so I'll hold off from any major purchases. I could go for the Fort, but it won't help me on the last day of the week. The citadel, yes, not the fort. So Nur has bought troops and upgraded the golems. She's now got 84 Master Gremlins, 35 Steel Golems, and 21 stone gargoyles. She level 7 with stats of (3 / 0 / 4 / 7). She's got basic artificer, advanced war machines and advanced sorcery. MotW, Magic Insight, Mana Regeneration and First Aid. I just bought a tent today. Now let's play. Built an Orb of Armor Crushing (5 ore and 5 sulfur) for my Steel Golems. AND a necklace of luck (5 wood and 5 crystal) for my gremlins. My next major purchase will be for the Mage tower, then library. So I'm still needing 3 gems until then. So for the next 3 days I can use these resources to aid my development. I'll be heading north to capture the crystal and gem mines (as well as numerous chests). If I, by chance, get the gems early...I can pass the one golem or one gremlin to Galib and he can break it down if he has to. They're both level one mini's so he can re-build them to the same specifications if need be. Nur heads out north and hits the learning stone on the way to the crystal mine. Galib stays put near the windmill for day 1 of week 3.

And just so you know, I've still got 11 crystal left, 8 sulfur left, 15 wood left and 4 ore left. I'm hardly hurting myself with those 2 mini-artis. The wood and ore stockpile up quickly. So you just need to watch the precious resources. There's where the beauty of resourcefulness shines through.

Day 15 (day 1 week 3): No build. Tavern offers Faiz & Sinitar. We opened the path to the Capitol with the parapet yesterday, so we might want to grab some gold from the chests to get the capitol quickly, we'll see how it goes. Galib got 7 ore from the windmill, so that means I've got 3 days before I'll have the gems for the Mage Tower. If I'm short on either wood, ore, crystal or sulfur, I can shuttle the artis back home for destruction and recoup the cost. But it looks like I'll be fine. Galib is now heading towards the garden after hitting the wind & water mills. Nur goes for the crystal mine...60+ steel golem guardians. Piece of cake. And the armor crushing arti does its work quite nicely. Makes hitting those golems MUCH easier for the gremlins. The golems themselves don't do much damage because they're getting decimated by the retaliation attack, so they're dying pretty quickly, but repair brings them all back at the end. Zero losses and very few spells used. Crystal flagged, on to the gem mine (hitting luck/morale boosters along the way as usual).

Day 16: No build. Yes, two days in a row without a build. Well, I'm one gem short from the Mage tower. I could do the fort here, but that delays the capitol. So I'm going to shoot for the capitol first, then the mage tower & library then guild. That way, by the time I'm finishing up with the Northern corner, I'll know if I want to take Dark Magic from the Witch hut or not. After that, it's the gold mine and the large stash just south of that, then it's on to the dragon pass (or north to red...I haven't decided yet). Galib continues on towards the garden. Nur takes on the blackbear riders guarding the gem mine. Poor play on my part in that battle. I failed to get off a repair and lost 5 golems and 4 gargs. Definitely should've been 0 golems. *shakes head sadly*. Flags mine then spies several green dragons (sorry, I thought they were emerald earlier) and the artifact they're guarding is the Lion Crown (+2 luck & morale). Decent, but I'm not sure I want to risk it for that reward. She turns south.

Day 17: Build Capitol. I almost bypassed a chest guarded by a hoard of crossbowman. I'd forgotten that I had the tent. Well, unfortunately, they got off a shot first and killed 55 gremlins. After resurrecting them with the tent I ended up losing 30 total. If I'd been at expert war machines I probably would've lost none. Oh well. Those should be my last gremlin casualties for a while. While the golem's arti doesn't help me versus ranged attackers, the gremlin's luck arti is coming in VERY handy. Against melee's...the golems will shine. I see squires coming up. I bypass the witch hut towards more chests (2 guarded by the squires). I'm 37 gold short for the capitol so I trade 2 wood for the 50 gold and build it. Galib is one step from the Garden.

Day 18: Build Mage tower. Nur takes out squires with 1 gargoyle loss. Sword of Might for a reward. Expert Sorcery from chest XP. Continue south to demons guarding knowledge crystal. Galib tags the garden and heads back to windmill for start of week.

Day 19: Build Library. Nur decimates the demons. The Golems reduce their defense to zero in no time flat and the gremlins mop up. Galib should make it back to the windmill with plenty of time to spare for day 1 of next week. Nur heads north towards the witch hut...just in case. :O)

Day 20: Build Mage Guild level 2. Galib stops next to the windmill. Good to go for run next week. Nur stays put until I build the guild. Good idea. Level one was Divine Strength / Fire Trap / Eldritch Arrow (I'd already learned these 3 earlier). Extra level one from library was Slow (dark). Level 2 was Endurance / Wasp Swarm / Decay / Vulnerability. Yeah, I'd say Dark's worth a shot. :O) While I "could" wait just one more day to find out what level 3 is, considering that I've only got Artificer, War Machines and Sorcery right now allows me to take a "bit" of a chance on Dark. Nur takes Dark Magic from Witch Hut. Nur then heads East towards gold mine along the northern edge of her land...hitting all the luck/morale boosts along the way.

Day 21: Builds Fort. Nur continues on path towards gold mine. Galib stays put. Wow, what a boring day that was. *does a little soft shoe number to entertain his fans* Better? No...didn't think so. NEXT!

Day 22 (day 1 week 4): Build Citadel. Tavern offers Nathir and Faiz. Galib gets 7 ore from windmill and hits the waterwheel then heads towards the garden again. Nice timing because Nur's heading there to liberate some resources and artifacts. Nur continues towards gold mine. Slow going.

Before anyone asks, the mini-artifacts I purchased back in week 2 have NOT affected my town development. The Silver Pavilion does need crystal and sulfur, but I didn't have the gems needed to get the mage tower or library first. The Altar of Wishes required 10 mercury that I didn't have yet either. Now I could've chose to not build the library or guild levels and reached the Altar by the end of the week, but without a citadel, that's only gaining me 3 Djinns extra. I'd rather know how to develop my hero at that time rather than having those few extra Djinns. The 3 upper level units will have to come in week 4. This being a shorter map, I don't see that as much of a concern. Especially when I'm not losing many purchased troops and I'm leveling up pretty rapidly.

Day 23: Builds Castle. Galib continues on path. Nur bypasses the "lots" of Zealots and heads for the hoard of berserkers guarding the corner stash (includes robe of sar issus)...this could be a tough battle. Let's find out. :O) 56 berserkers and I've got 54 M.Gremlins, 13 S.Gargs. and 29 S.Golems. Lost 17 golems and that's it. Summoned 5 earth elementals that helped considerably. No matter what people say, that's an underestimated spell. Especially with the skills to back it up. Leveled up and took expert war machines. Summoning was offered for only the first time...I passed on it.

Day 24: No build. Nur grabbed the 2 chests but left the gems and artifact. Galib will get them tomorrow (arti is blocked in by 2 stacks of gems...I don't want to sacrifice the extra gems by letting Nur pick them up) Galib reaches Garden but can't reach gems yet. Nur heads back home to learn spells before taking on Marksmen guarding ore stash and Zealots guarding gold mine.

Day 25: Build Mage Guild level 3. Galib grabs the goods and transfers the robe to Nur. Nur parks it in town. Mage Guild level 3 offers Righteous Might / Earthquake / Fireball / Suffering. Yet another Dark spell. Of the six available in levels 1-3 I just got 4 of them. Specializes in Light & Summoning my butt. Heck I just now got offered summoning for the first time at my last level up. And Light's been offered once too. Depending upon how you choose your skills, you CAN somewhat control what becomes available when. Somewhat.

I'm running a tad low on ore currently, so I'll break down my artis so I can build if I need to on day 26. Besides, they're obsolete now anyway. My Knowledge has reached 11 (along with my spell power...I said getting power wasn't THAT hard to do with a wizard. Artifacts aren't THAT difficult to obtain) and that makes my luck arti a +2 now. And it makes the initiative (+11%) & magic protection (+49%) ones much more attractive. A knowledge of 15 is my next stepping stone I'll be watching for. At 15 I can get a –2 armor crushing, +4 health, and +2 speed artis.

I'm going to call it quits there. As you can plainly see, not only did I use the artis for HALF of the first month, it didn't slow down my development at all and I didn't HAVE to break them down at all either. I'm doing so now only because I'm in town AND I'd be rebuilding them stronger anyway. I "may" need some for my next build, but its certainly not required.

While some of you may quibble with the build order, that's most often dictated by the map and the mine guardians. In this case, the mercury and gems were rather hard to come by. But mini-artis didn't delay any builds. In fact they assisted in those builds by making it much easier to take mines and resource caches. In month 2 they really come into play. I'll be building my 3 upper level dwellings shortly but I won't be upgrading them anytime soon (same with my mage dwelling). Once they're built, I'll let them stockpile and focus on buffing my lower level units with mini-artis and spells. This also ensures that you've got some dependable units available for town defense while you're busy exploring and expanding. Once you're maxed out in your town, THEN buy your upper level troops with matching jewelry. They just love the bling. :O)

So, have I proven my point yet Elodin? *grin*

Elodin

09-29-2007, 01:00 AM

It didn't hurt to have level1, level2, and level 3 external dwelling for castle as well as nearby gold mine and hill fort. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Getting war machines also didn't hurt. Getting a resourcefulness squire also help.

But you played good game, I'll give you that. Ordinarily you will not be able to build a miniartifact with ore in month one. If you read my posts you see I said a level 1 miniartifact in month one may be possible, but is hard to make significat use of artificer for a while. Of course their are lot of variables that can change things on a map.

I still say artificer need some change so more signigicant usage of it can be made.

H5forem

09-29-2007, 04:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
I still say artificer need some change so more signigicant usage of it can be made. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that the cost of MA's need to be acording to the level of Knowledge.

So it will be cheap at the begining when your heroe have low Knowledge and MA's are weak, and you urge for resurces, but expensive later when your heroe have a lot of knowledge and the need for resources is not so important.

PhoenixReborn06

09-29-2007, 07:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
Getting war machines also didn't hurt. Getting a resourcefulness squire also help.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He just did it twice, once on hard, once on heroic. He has said he always gets a resourcefulness squire.

LVL 1 mini artifacts in month 1, stronger ones later.

Why is there such an issue here?

Maybe he can't do it on Trefoil but that isn't a standard map now is it?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but is hard to make significat use of artificer for a while </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's right you can't use it to full effect (3 power mini arties) until 7+ weeks in to the game. So what?

We'll see how they scale with knowledge in ToTE.

Elodin

09-29-2007, 08:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhoenixReborn06:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
Getting war machines also didn't hurt. Getting a resourcefulness squire also help.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He just did it twice, once on hard, once on heroic. He has said he always gets a resourcefulness squire.

LVL 1 mini artifacts in month 1, stronger ones later.

Why is there such an issue here?

Maybe he can't do it on Trefoil but that isn't a standard map now is it?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">but is hard to make significat use of artificer for a while </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's right you can't use it to full effect (3 power mini arties) until 7+ weeks in to the game. So what?

We'll see how they scale with knowledge in ToTE. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having 3 external dwellings, a hill fort, and a gold mine close by isn't standard either. Besides I had already said it possible to make a level 1 artifact (barely) in month 1.

And it is impossible to "always" get squire with resourcefullness because you cannot control what other heroes are offered in tavern.

If you had been following discussion you would know I said you can't make significant use of artifact in month 1 on heroic difficulty. I never said anything about easy or normal or hard because he and I both said we always play on heroic.

The so what is that other factions can use their racial skill throughout game where wizard cannot. Even 1 or 2 measly level 1 artifacts can't always be made within month on every map on heroic.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

09-29-2007, 08:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
It didn't hurt to have level1, level2, and level 3 external dwelling for castle as well as nearby gold mine and hill fort. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Getting war machines also didn't hurt. Getting a resourcefulness squire also help.

But you played good game, I'll give you that. Ordinarily you will not be able to build a miniartifact with ore in month one. If you read my posts you see I said a level 1 miniartifact in month one may be possible, but is hard to make significat use of artificer for a while. Of course their are lot of variables that can change things on a map.

I still say artificer need some change so more signigicant usage of it can be made. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm...first off, I didn't get EITHER the hill fort OR the gold mine in that entire month. Niether of them. So don't use THAT excuse.

Secondly, the external dwellings are NOT that uncommon. But even without them I still would've been able to do what I did. If you notice, there was very little loss of units. In the first two weeks or so, most damage was done either by spells or by gremlins. And 20 gremlins isn't going to make or break me.

In regards to War Machines, I took it to take advantage of it later on. I didn't even USE it until I got the tent at the start of week THREE and then only used it in 2 battles.

The resourcefulness scout is very important. Yes, I did manage to get one on day one, but even if I didn't I'd get one eventually. And until then, I leave the important piles of resources on the ground until I absolutely MUST have them.

And lastly, as I've said before, I use this on nearly EVERY MAP I play. I simply picked a random map there. You never specified a specific one. If you've got a problem with that particular map...fine, pick one. If you pick one that's leveraged to STOP me from using Artificer, I'll still find a way to put it to use. Ignoring a factions racial ability isn't just careless, it's downright dumb.

Kranyum

09-29-2007, 08:34 AM

I believe the better question here should be: how much marginal addition did those miniartifacts bring to your development?

What battles were won with the aid of those miniarties which otherwise would have been lost, or at least how significant was the reduction of casualties of those battles because of the miniartifacts built.

Of course you CAN make artifacts if you want to. The essential part lies in HOW important it is to make them, or even if it's worth making them.
And that because early on, because of the low knowledge and the high cost the help you get is quite minimal for a steep price.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

09-29-2007, 08:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
Having 3 external dwellings, a hill fort, and a gold mine close by isn't standard either. Besides I had already said it possible to make a level 1 artifact (barely) in month 1. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Week 2 and week 3 are NOT "barely". I could've not purchased ANY troops from those external dwellings and still managed to do exactly the same thing. The only difference would've been that I'd have to use spells a bit more per battle. That's it. And as I already said, I never touched the hill fort OR the gold mine. I would've eventually, don't get me wrong. But there were more important issues at hand at the time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And it is impossible to "always" get squire with resourcefullness because you cannot control what other heroes are offered in tavern. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it is impossible to "always" get resourcefulness. But it happens well over 75% of the time. This entire strategy will STILL work without resourcefulness, but it'll be delayed a bit.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you had been following discussion you would know I said you can't make significant use of artifact in month 1 on heroic difficulty. I never said anything about easy or normal or hard because he and I both said we always play on heroic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This depends upon what you refer to as significant now doesn't it? I was able to use it in HALF of the entire first month on Heroic. Not one arti, but TWO. On hard I was able to get and use them by WEEK ONE. How long does Haven wait before using training? What about Sylvan? Dungeon? I used mine right about the same time as all the other factions put their racials to use, earlier than some. The only exceptions are Necromancers and Demon Lords who can use thiers from day one. Were you expecting me to use level 3 mini-artifacts in month one? If you notice, the relevance of "significant" is relative. Several boosts for artificer have rather large variances. Crushing, luck, morale & speed artis will all be the same for the first several week. None of them change in function until you hit a 10 knowledge. The nice thing is, those also turn out to be the most useful ones until that time. To me, that's pretty darned significant.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The so what is that other factions can use their racial skill throughout game where wizard cannot. Even 1 or 2 measly level 1 artifacts can't always be made within month on every map on heroic. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The other factions DO use thier racial skills throughout the game whereas the wizard CHOOSES not to...because YOU CHOOSE to ignore it. He most certainly "can" use it...and effectively.

Haven will possibly use training in the first month. A bit, but not much. It's VERY expensive.

Dungeon has to build not one but two buildings to make his racial shine. And Chains don't come into play until ususally week 2 or 3. When did I use mine again? hmmmm...

Sylvan has to kill multiple stacks, build buildings, get multiple skills AND has to fight another enemy that he's managed to put in his list. Week 3 usually at the earliest.

Runemages can usually pull thiers off in week 2. But most often, they get the runes in week 1 or 2 but hold off on using them until week 3 because they need the resources to build. Not always though. They're pretty much in the same boat as Wizards but they can use thiers a bit earlier generally.

Necros & Inferno are the only two that can use theirs from day one. That's it.

And yes, on EVERY map...you can at least make one or two on heroic in month one. Always.

(unless you've got some screwy map that doesn't have mines or anything....so I guess I shouldn't say always. But that sort of map also eliminates the use of racials from other towns too due to building restrictions)

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

09-29-2007, 08:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kranyum:
I believe the better question here should be: how much marginal addition did those miniartifacts bring to your development?

What battles were won with the aid of those miniarties which otherwise would have been lost, or at least how significant was the reduction of casualties of those battles because of the miniartifacts built.

Of course you CAN make artifacts if you want to. The essential part lies in HOW important it is to make them, or even if it's worth making them.
And that because early on, because of the low knowledge and the high cost the help you get is quite minimal for a steep price. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In every battle, they made eaiser work for my hero. Every battle. I either reduced their defense (basically casting vulnerability) thus making follow-up attacks more effective (along with ranged attacks...of which I had plenty). Or I doubled my damage output with lucky strikes. And considering I didn't have Luck as a selected skill (and on a main hero I WOULDN'T pick luck for wizards) that was quite often my only form of luck (although on this map I did find the four-leaf clover around halfway through). I could've just as easily taken a morale mini-arti for my gremlins. Or another nice one is an Armor crushing...for my gremlins. Yes, it works with ranged attacks too.

Did they flat out win any battles? No, of course not. But the trick to remember is, it's not costing me anything to do this. Its making it so I don't have to cast as many spells to win a battle. It's lessening my troop losses. It's allowing me to explore longer and range out farther because of the ease on my troops & spells. And that, in turn, is allowing me to gather more artifacts/resources/mines which only enhance the Artificer use.

Can you get by without them? Yes. Most definitely. But why would you? You've invested multiple level-ups in the skill. Now you're just going to ignore it? That's like taking War Machines as a skill and then never purchasing the machines or sieging a castle. In regards to the "steep" price, I remind people that we're only talking about FIVE ore and FIVE crystals. How exactly is that steep? Every map I play on, I always end up with an abundance of one rare resource or another. It usually differs on every map. But it always happens. Well, take advantage of that. The wood and ore are always there, from there just pick what best suits your needs. Ignoring it is just silly IMO.

PhoenixReborn06

09-29-2007, 08:22 PM

Chuckles can you do a thread showing me how to use avenger? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Elodin

09-29-2007, 08:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Secondly, the external dwellings are NOT that uncommon.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having an external level 1 plus external level 2 plus external level 3 is pretty uncommon. It gives the player lots more creatures. Creatures from dwellings themselves, plus increased creature growth in town.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
The resourcefulness scout is very important. Yes, I did manage to get one on day one, but even if I didn't I'd get one eventually. And until then, I leave the important piles of resources on the ground until I absolutely MUST have them.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Problem is resource squire is not available early in vast majority of games unless you make Galib your starting pick.

Elodin

09-29-2007, 09:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
Having 3 external dwellings, a hill fort, and a gold mine close by isn't standard either. Besides I had already said it possible to make a level 1 artifact (barely) in month 1. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Week 2 and week 3 are NOT "barely". </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can't tell me that you make artifacts in week 2 and three in almost every map. Not at all, not on heroic. One map does not a proof make.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And it is impossible to "always" get squire with resourcefullness because you cannot control what other heroes are offered in tavern. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it is impossible to "always" get resourcefulness. But it happens well over 75% of the time. This entire strategy will STILL work without resourcefulness, but it'll be delayed a bit.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Impossible. I can retart a map 100 times to prove it if necessary. I guarentee there will not be somone with luck in tavern well over 75 out of 100 times. Not anywheres close.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
This depends upon what you refer to as significant now doesn't it? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

By significant I mean you can use the racial enough to make significant impact on the game in same way as other racials are used to make significant impact on game. Giving one or 2 creature plus one to some stat is not significant impact.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I was able to use it in HALF of the entire first month on Heroic. Not one arti, but TWO. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, but that was one game. You can't tell me you make 2 miniartifacts in week 2 in most games.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I used mine right about the same time as all the other factions put their racials to use, earlier than some. The only exceptions are Necromancers and Demon Lords who can use thiers from day one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, in this map you were able to make 2 weak artifacts in week 2, which is not at all typical. Did those artifacts have as much impact as the racial skill of others? No. And it takes away from resources available to build with.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:

The other factions DO use thier racial skills throughout the game whereas the wizard CHOOSES not to...because YOU CHOOSE to ignore it. He most certainly "can" use it...and effectively.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Artifacts require resources. Buildings requires resources. You cannot effectively use artificer until after your building is about done. Academy require lots of wood and ore, which is also needed for artifacts besides the rare resources.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Dungeon has to build not one but two buildings to make his racial shine. And Chains don't come into play until ususally week 2 or 3. When did I use mine again? hmmmm...
/QUOTE]

He can start using racial when one building is done. Once he finsh second building, he is done.

Academy requires building plus continual lots more resources. Dungeon's resource investment is nowhere close to what academy require.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Sylvan has to kill multiple stacks, build buildings, get multiple skills AND has to fight another enemy that he's managed to put in his list. Week 3 usually at the earliest.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sylvan require 3000 gold total and 5 wood. Not a huge investment, and killing stacks is mandatory part of game.

Plus, I think there is boost in TOTE tha makes killing the base creature count for the upgrades. So he only have to kill colosus to get the racial applied to Titan and Storm Lord.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Runemages can usually pull thiers off in week 2. But most often, they get the runes in week 1 or 2 but hold off on using them until week 3 because they need the resources to build. Not always though. They're pretty much in the same boat as Wizards but they can use thiers a bit earlier generally.
/QUOTE]

Those runes are used to massive effect. A charge here and there means no difficulty creeping. Plus their level 1-3 creatures are great creapers. They have added advantage of having a heroe who automatically learns runes as she levels up.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
And yes, on EVERY map...you can at least make one or two on heroic in month one. Always.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you go back and read my posts you will see I said you could makea an artifact in month 1. But question is, significant impacat artifact usage. Is that one artifact making as much of difference in game as the racial skills of others? No.

Elodin

09-29-2007, 09:19 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
You've invested multiple level-ups in the skill. Now you're just going to ignore it? That's like taking War Machines as a skill and then never purchasing the machines or sieging a castle. In regards to the "steep" price, I remind people that we're only talking about FIVE ore and FIVE crystals. How exactly is that steep? Every map I play on, I always end up with an abundance of one rare resource or another. It usually differs on every map. But it always happens. Well, take advantage of that. The wood and ore are always there, from there just pick what best suits your needs. Ignoring it is just silly IMO. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The actual cost of first artifact is the cost of the building plus cost of artifact. Building cost 2000 gold plus one of each resouce. All artifacts cost 5 wood or 5 ore plus 5 rare resources for level 1 artifact. Initiaitve artifact cost 5 mercury plus 5sulphur.

So to make level 1 crushing artifact costs 2000 gold, 6 wood, 6 ore, 6 sulphur, and 1 of each other rare resource.

Academy is struggling for wood and ore most of time until building schedule is complete.

Jolly-Joker

09-30-2007, 03:06 AM

1) I agree 100% with Chuck. He's right in every respect and while I might have played things differently in some cases of his map that's only due to personal preference and doesn't say anything about the quality.
2) The resource question: Academy does NOT need a "lot" of wood and ore. On the contrary. Let's take only non-standard dwellings. For fairness I take all upgrades, although the higher level ones are not relevant for this discussion because we are basically talking about 1st month. So I give two numbers. The first number is complete for all non-standard dwellings, the second is without level 6 and 7 upgrade. You COULD argue that Academy needs the mage guilds more than everyone else, but then Academy needs CREATURE dwellings less than everyone else. Lets simply look at the numbers and figure.

Academy: 56W/81O; 46W/61O (includes 5W for Arti Merchant)
Fortress: 65W/91O; 65W/81O
Dungeon: 50/70; 45/65
Inferno: 65/60; 55/50
Nekropolis; 110/130; 95/100 (!)
Sylvans: 117/50; 102/45
Haven: 105/120; 85/100

Stronghold is basically 2 mage guild levels missing, but must build a separate dwellings for movement spells AND has to buy charms for the movement spells that cost resources, so for Stronghold resource situation is comparable and they need:
Stronghold: 86W/106O; 71W/81W

S, no, Academy does NOT need a lot of wood and ore! In fact they need very few.

3) Significance. This is more difficult to judge, but if you see the chain of battles it becomes a bit clearer. If you can walk through the battles without no losses at all you have no difficulty whatsoever; if you have a battle against a Horde of Peasants it's easy. But lots of Griffins or something are something else completely and the bottom line is that you do well when you do your utmost and manage to take on stacks as soon as possible AND with MINIMAL losses. You could say, optimum play means balancing on the edge. "On the edge" means you have to make use of every bonus you can get. A +1 Luck arti which is usually the first arti I employ for Gremlins (in week 2, btw), will increase damage output for Gremlins for 10% in the long run, but in reality a lucky hit in the right moment may make a tough battle an easy one. Chuck's favorite has a Plague Zombie effect on his limitless retaliating Golems which will increase the damage output of the Gremlins as well. A Health arti will decrease the losses your Gremlins take against shooters.
Now, the REAL effect is the domino effect. If you lose 2 guardian creatures and 2 Gremlins in each fight you'll manage to keep a coherent fighting force - the ever-developing hero will more than make up for the small losses. Lose 4 or 5 guarding creatures and there will come the point where you will shy from a battle you'd have run into with a bit more substance in bodyguards and THERE the advantage becomes very real.

Lastly, you can really make use of your second and third heroes by making sure they are transferring back to town the single creature(s) with your arti(es) if you really need the resources to build.

Elodin

09-30-2007, 06:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
I agree 100% with Chuck. He's right in every respect
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did not doubt that you would be in 100% agreement to what he says.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
So, no, Academy does NOT need a lot of wood and ore![/b] In fact they need very few.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are missing point. It matters not only how much total resources is needed but when needed.
Additionally, Academy have to use resources (including wood and ore) to build artifacts with. It have to use resources to build buildings with. So to build early artifacts is no means easy to do and impossible on many map.

Does necromancer need resources for raising dead? No (maybe they should to balance it though.)

Does dungeon need resources (once racial buildings are built?) No.

Does Sylvan need resources (once racial buildings built?) No.

Does inferno need resources for gating? No.

Haven needs gold.

Fortress needs minimal resources, much cheaper than academy's racial demands, especialy in building stage.

Does stronghold need resources after warcry building built? No.

Academy cannot survive without building mage guild levels as it goes. Wizard has to have spells to benefit his creatures since he have no attack or defense for primary or secondary attributes. Well, Havez have war machines to creep with and good supply of gremlin, but he is unique in that.

Jolly-Joker

09-30-2007, 07:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:

You are missing point. It matters not only how much total resources is needed but when needed.
Additionally, Academy have to use resources (including wood and ore) to build artifacts with. It have to use resources to build buildings with. So to build early artifacts is no means easy to do and impossible on many map.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Point? What point? You basically don't need Wood AT ALL except for the standard Tavern, Market, Blacksmith builds that everyone else does as well. In other words, you will always have Wood in good supply. By no means easy? Impossible on many map? On which maps? If there are "many" as you say, you shouldn't have a problem to name a couple.
So go on. Name maps. Name us "many" maps.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

09-30-2007, 09:51 AM

Truthfully, I thought I made my point. But apparently I have to play EVERY SINGLE MAP on heroic to make my point. Well, sorry. I'd love to indulge you, but I don't have that kind of free time. I only managed these 2 play-by-plays because I was home sick from work for the past 3 days. Anyway....

You say that most maps won't have the first 3 external dwellings. That's very true. However, those units wouldn't have made any difference in my using Artificer or not. They made life easier on me and it definitely altered my building strategy, but without them I still would've made the artis when I did on that map.

You also say that a resourcefulness hero is not available in most games. While it's true that it's pretty rare to get a hero that starts with luck in your tavern, well I shouldn't say "rare" but rather nowhere close to 75% of the time. However, do you let your scouts stay at level 1 or 2 the whole game?!? Most of my scouts are level 5 to level 10. I play with multiple heroes. Running around with level 1 & 2 scouts is a waste of money. They're sitting ducks for any other low-level hero. And burning 3000-5000 gold for a hero is a quick way to lose a game. If I don't get Galib in my tavern, I'll easily settle for Vayshan, Karli, Irina, Nymus, Ossir or any of the Sylvan heroes. At a 15% chance, any sylvan hero will have a great shot at resourcefulness before level 5. But truthfully, getting Galib is pretty common in the first 2 weeks. I have no problem buying a hero after the initial heroes are gone (meaning one with only 1 unit instead of a full assortment) if it insures a quick shot at resourcefulness.

You also say that I can't have artifacts in week 2 in every heroic map. Of course not. Did I say that? Week 3 however...yeah, every map.

You say that significant isn't a +1 to a creature stat. I agree. However, if that one stat DOUBLES your damage output of a stack of 100+ units? Or if it gives you additional attacks (morale)? Or on an unlimited retaliation unit you give it an automatic deduction in enemy defense? That's like giving the Steel Golems a whole extra ability. That's not "just a + 1 stat" change. You claim that these artis are "weak" artifacts. But if I've got a stack of 20-30 steel golems standing out in the middle of the battlefield and the enemy is gang attacking it (which they tend to do), then your golems are dropping like flies and doing very little damage. But they'll quickly turn several Treants into pincushions. Once they decimate the golems the enemy will head over to either the gargs protecting the gremlins OR they'll attack the war machines (also a quite common mistake on the part of the ai that I leverage). With the enemy now in range, the additional attack/morale/luck or whatever arti I've got on my gremlins makes the ENEMY now drop like flies. And then, finally when the battle is nearly done, *poof*...back come the golems at full strength to fill in the hole in my gremlin defense AND to finish mopping up. This isn't a one-trick-pony here. This tactic works on most every enemy (few notable exceptions of course...but the versitile wizard has ways of dealing with that too).

Next you say that building those artifacts didn't have much impact and that it took away from my resources available for building. Did you ever READ my play-by-play? There was not ONE DAY where the resources needed for those artis affected my being able to build what I wanted WHEN I wanted. Not once. And if it would have...I would've forseen it and planned ahead to send an arti back for destruction. This is a strategy game, planning ahead is pretty much required. As for the impact, yeah, it was average to minimal...but as I said, those resources WERE NOT BEING USED. So why let them sit there when I could put them to better use? Besides, using mini-artis regularly is a good idea as it gets you into the habit AND it helps you devise better strategies for other games/battles later on. Those mini artis can drastically change the effectiveness of your units at many stages of the game. Learning HOW to use them and manage them effectively is a big part of winning with Academy.

Next you say that Academy requires a lot of wood and ore. Simply not true. They do not "struggle" to get wood and ore until building schedule is complete. In the later stages of the game (post month one) the wood and ore requirements grow quite a bit with the dwelling upgrades. But by that time you've got additional wood/ore mines most likely AND you've scrounged a ton of them from the ground. In the first month you're looking at something along these lines....

Wood~~~Ore~~~building
5~~~~~~0~~~~~tavern
0~~~~~~5~~~~~gremlin basic
0~~~~~~5~~~~~gremlin upgrade
5~~~~~~5~~~~~guild level 1
5~~~~~~0~~~~~blacksmith
0~~~~~~5~~~~~golem basic
5~~~~~~0~~~~~marketplace
0~~~~~~5~~~~~resource silo
5~~~~~~5~~~~~guild level 2

Add to that your financial buildings (no wood/ore requirements) and you're off to a solid start. 25 wood and 30 ore is not that high of a price. You'll be generating 2 of each for the first 2 weeks (not counting day 1) and that's 26 of each by the start of week 3. That's already offset all your building costs in wood and ore. So everything you've picked up in those first 2 weeks is stockpiling. You can't tell me that finding wood/ore piles on the ground is uncommon, can you? On heroic, the castle tends to wait a while for Academy. Not being as reliant on units as other factions he can wait on that for a bit longer than most towns.

If you look at the TOTAL costs of all the buildings and upgrades, yeah, the wood/ore demands are kinda steep (more towards ore). But you simply don't NEED the upgraded dwellings for quite a long while (near the END of month TWO). That's plenty of time to gather what you need. And also plenty of time to develop your scouts with resourcefulness.

And yet, those resource demands in no way affect Artificer, despite what you say. If you plan ahead (which I'd certainly HOPE you're already doing) you can see what you'll need and when you'll need it. This allows you to determine which resources aren't currently needed and allows you to determine what arti's to make. If you're going to be building financial structures and then heavy ore based buildings in numerous consecutive days, then you can get some use out of that wood that's just sitting there by making the wood-based artis, and vice-versa.

Lastly...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You are missing point. It matters not only how much total resources is needed but when needed.
Additionally, Academy have to use resources (including wood and ore) to build artifacts with. It have to use resources to build buildings with. So to build early artifacts is no means easy to do and impossible on many map. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Planning ahead. Getting a building plan in mind. A week ahead of time. Scouting the map to see resource stashes and mine location & guardings. Knowing what you need and when you'll need it. Number crunching. That's how you use artificer. That's how you use it on EVERY map. That's the point YOU'RE missing. I can't think of a SINGLE time where I had a mini-artifact delay the building of a building that I wanted to build. EVER. Because I plan ahead. Do I run into delays on my building plans? Of course. But it's never due to artificer. It's due to the map layout and a lack of specific resources. But when you're low on one resource, you're almost always high on another. Plan ahead.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Does necromancer need resources for raising dead? No (maybe they should to balance it though.)

Does dungeon need resources (once racial buildings are built?) No.

Does Sylvan need resources (once racial buildings built?) No.

Does inferno need resources for gating? No.

Haven needs gold.

Fortress needs minimal resources, much cheaper than academy's racial demands, especialy in building stage.

Does stronghold need resources after warcry building built? No. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes and yes. To actually USE their racial abilities, no. To build their towns/dwellings/guilds/upgrades, yes for all. Only the Necromancer can get by with what the Wizard can get by with. Only those two towns can succeed for the first month or so with little to no dwellings past level 3. And while you claim that the Wizards' troops are weak, they're much better than the Necro's units. Did it even occur to you during that play-by-play that I was wiping my area of the map clean with ONLY 3 STACKS of troops? With ONLY 3 DWELLINGS built? Where is the resource demand in that? While other towns build their dwellings and buy their troops, they're losing those troops in battle with low-level heroes. Those troops are costing them gold and hindering thier building options. But to succeed, they must buy troops and build/upgrade buildings. By not being forced to do that, the Academy's resource demands are lower than other towns in month one. And if those resources are just sitting there...put them to use. So do the other towns' racial skills cost resources...not compared to Academy. But those demands DON'T affect your town development if you plan accordingly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Academy cannot survive without building mage guild levels as it goes. Wizard has to have spells to benefit his creatures since he have no attack or defense for primary or secondary attributes. Well, Havez have war machines to creep with and good supply of gremlin, but he is unique in that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It can't? Really. So how come I continually "survive" with only a level 2 guild (sometimes 3) in the first month. How come I continually "survive" with only 3 stacks of troops WITHOUT Havez? And how come I continually THRIVE instead of only "survive"? Planning ahead and using strategy. That's how.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

09-30-2007, 10:25 AM

One last thing. When you say "many maps" can't use artificer early, can you please give me an example? Or several?

Elodin

09-30-2007, 10:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
In the first month you're looking at something along these lines....

Wood~~~Ore~~~building
5~~~~~~0~~~~~tavern
0~~~~~~5~~~~~gremlin basic
0~~~~~~5~~~~~gremlin upgrade
5~~~~~~5~~~~~guild level 1
5~~~~~~0~~~~~blacksmith
0~~~~~~5~~~~~golem basic
5~~~~~~0~~~~~marketplace
0~~~~~~5~~~~~resource silo
5~~~~~~5~~~~~guild level 2

Add to that your financial buildings (no wood/ore requirements) and you're off to a solid start. 25 wood and 30 ore is not that high of a price. You'll be generating 2 of each for the first 2 weeks (not counting day 1) and that's 26 of each by the start of week 3. That's already offset all your building costs in wood and ore. So everything you've picked up in those first 2 weeks is stockpiling. You can't tell me that finding wood/ore piles on the ground is uncommon, can you? On heroic, the castle tends to wait a while for Academy. Not being as reliant on units as other factions he can wait on that for a bit longer than most towns.
. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you only build gremln dwelling/upgrade and golem basic dwelling in month one you will lose so you need to add to llist.

As to whethere there is wood/ore piles on the ground that is a toss up. No guarentee.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
If you look at the TOTAL costs of all the buildings and upgrades, yeah, the wood/ore demands are kinda steep (more towards ore). But you simply don't NEED the upgraded dwellings for quite a long while (near the END of month TWO). That's plenty of time to gather what you need. And also plenty of time to develop your scouts with resourcefulness.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

End of month 2 is extremely too long to wait. And resourcefulness so late is not going to aid a lot.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
And yet, those resource demands in no way affect Artificer, despite what you say. If you plan ahead (which I'd certainly HOPE you're already doing) you can see what you'll need and when you'll need it. This allows you to determine which resources aren't currently needed and allows you to determine what arti's to make. If you're going to be building financial structures and then heavy ore based buildings in numerous consecutive days, then you can get some use out of that wood that's just sitting there by making the wood-based artis, and vice-versa.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You only have certain amount of resources to apply to both dwellings and artifacts.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
To actually USE their racial abilities, no. To build their towns/dwellings/guilds/upgrades, yes for all. Only the Necromancer can get by with what the Wizard can get by with. Only those two towns can succeed for the first month or so with little to no dwellings past level 3. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wizard cannot succed with building only 3 dwellings in first month. When he run into another heroe at end of month he will be defeated. Necro gains troops without buildings. Wizard does not.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Lastly...
And while you claim that the Wizards' troops are weak, they're much better than the Necro's units. . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Necro gets many many many more troops through necromancy. The vast number makes up for the weakness. And not all his troops are so weak, eh? The ghost family has become big pain. Vampires are great big trouble. Liches are great. Wizard gets no extra troops.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Did it even occur to you during that play-by-play that I was wiping my area of the map clean with ONLY 3 STACKS of troops? With ONLY 3 DWELLINGS built? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, there was 3 external dwellings to match each of dwellings in town. You got lots of extra troops from the external dwellings and from the increased growth that was result of having external dwellings.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
While other towns build their dwellings and buy their troops, they're losing those troops in battle with low-level heroes. Those troops are costing them gold and hindering thier building options. But to succeed, they must buy troops and build/upgrade buildings. By not being forced to do that, the Academy's resource demands are lower than other towns in month one. . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hahaaaa. Every faction can creep effectively. I play with every faction and have not trouble creeping. Plus racials of other factions help them more in early game. And academy better be building those dwellings or he will lose.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
It can't? Really. So how come I continually "survive" with only a level 2 guild (sometimes 3) in the first month. How come I continually "survive" with only 3 stacks of troops WITHOUT Havez? And how come I continually THRIVE instead of only "survive"? Planning ahead and using strategy. That's how. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, eldrich arrow only go so far in creeping. Is true that Nur is very good creeper because she can recharge mana in battle (and I don't mind avoiding killing last stack to exploit that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif). But she need better spells soon too. Facing strong stack eldrich arrow will not get you victory.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

09-30-2007, 11:47 AM

Did I say I wouldn't be building the dwellings? No. I won't be UPGRADING the upper level dwelling until necessary. And running around with 1-3 level troops is NOT dangerous. Not when you've got summon creatures. If you NEED them, you've got them.

That build list I posted was simply an example. Do you seriously think I'd STOP after building those? That was only the first week & 1/2 or so.

Waiting until near the end of month 2 is NOT too long to wait to upgrade dwellings. Not if you've built the basic dwelling a while ago. They stockpile. Summon Creatures allows you to get them when you need them. Raksasha's are very usable un-upgraded, as are Colossi & Mages somewhat.

I think you misunderstood me when you say a wizard cannot win with only 3 dwellings in the first month. I'm saying that most towns must get the dwellings AND purchase the troops from those dwellings in month one to succeed. The Wizard (and necro) can get by with just building the basic dwellings and NOT buying the troops for the vast majority of the first month. I'm not suggesting you stunt your growth for using artificer. Both can be done at the same time if you plan for it.

In regards to other towns creeping abilities...did I say that other towns couldn't creep? No. But other than Wizard & Necro, name me a faction that can creep without ANY losses? Having resurrection with a level 1 unit (repair) is a HUGE advantage in creeping if used correctly.

In regards to eldritch arrow, you're wrong. With MotW, a good Spell Power, High Mana, and a distracting lure (golems) you can most certainly clear out nearly all of the wandering stacks with it. There are a "few" exceptions that require slightly different tactics, but not many. Would I go into a battle versus an enemy HERO with just eldritch? Of course not. But how often do you see an enemy hero in the first week or two? Not often. I'd have level 2 (or three quite often) in week 2 at the latest on nearly all maps. But for week one/two creeping, Eldritch/MotW/Grems/golems is a VERY potent combo.

So...any maps?

Elodin

09-30-2007, 12:59 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Did I say I wouldn't be building the dwellings? No. I won't be UPGRADING the upper level dwelling until necessary. And running around with 1-3 level troops is NOT dangerous. Not when you've got summon creatures. If you NEED them, you've got them.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess I misunderstood this then:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Only the Necromancer can get by with what the Wizard can get by with. Only those two towns can succeed for the first month or so with little to no dwellings past level 3. And while you claim that the Wizards' troops are weak, they're much better than the Necro's units. Did it even occur to you during that play-by-play that I was wiping my area of the map clean with ONLY 3 STACKS of troops? With ONLY 3 DWELLINGS built? Where is the resource demand in that?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That seems to say the wizard and necro don't need to build but 1-3 dwellings in month 1.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
That build list I posted was simply an example. Do you seriously think I'd STOP after building those? That was only the first week & 1/2 or so.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
According to what you said quoting as ore and wood requirement, it was entire month one buildings, when you throw in financial buildings.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
In the first month you're looking at something along these lines....

Wood~~~Ore~~~building
5~~~~~~0~~~~~tavern
0~~~~~~5~~~~~gremlin basic
0~~~~~~5~~~~~gremlin upgrade
5~~~~~~5~~~~~guild level 1
5~~~~~~0~~~~~blacksmith
0~~~~~~5~~~~~golem basic
5~~~~~~0~~~~~marketplace
0~~~~~~5~~~~~resource silo
5~~~~~~5~~~~~guild level 2

Add to that your financial buildings (no wood/ore requirements) and you're off to a solid start. 25 wood and 30 ore is not that high of a price.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Raksasha's are very usable un-upgraded, as are Colossi & Mages somewhat.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Eh, sort of. Colossi are not very impressive at all really. I don't know why they don't get any special. Rakasha can be useful but is last dwelling to build usually.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
In regards to other towns creeping abilities...did I say that other towns couldn't creep? No. But other than Wizard & Necro, name me a faction that can creep without ANY losses? Having resurrection with a level 1 unit (repair) is a HUGE advantage in creeping if used correctly.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, wizard cannot creeep with 0 loses, Necro with raise dead/eternal servatude can. Yes, I know war machine and tent, but war machine is not guaranteed and works not for golem and gargoyle. And single stack gargoyles are used as distractions very often.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
In regards to eldritch arrow, you're wrong. With MotW, a good Spell Power, High Mana, and a distracting lure (golems) you can most certainly clear out nearly all of the wandering stacks with it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No I'm not. And the wizard has the lowest spell power of the magic factions.Eldrich arrow is fine for a while but as you run into stronger stacks eldrich arrow is not enough.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
But for week one/two creeping, Eldritch/MotW/Grems/golems is a VERY potent combo.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well in week 1 odds are yes you will be able to get a lot done with eldrich arrow. Yes, but soon you will need other spells.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
So...any maps? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I see I must have been typing while you made that post asking for maps. Ok, off the top of my head here are a few where you will find making and shuttling artifacts difficult.
Seven Lakes
War of the Worlds
Subterraneon Treasures (no wells in underground can slow growth for some wizard heroes)
Windrose

Elodin

09-30-2007, 05:17 PM

You can add in most extra large and large maps for trouble with artificer. Once you leave your territory to begin conquest you are unlikely to waste time to go back to your town.

Something I was thinking is external artifact is fairly common. Why not let wizard use it as and arcane forge to rework his artifacts? Maybe merchant would charge fee to allow wizard to use his forge?

Or else give wizard an arcane forge spell once he builds his forge that grants him access to forge wherever he is at cost of all movement for day in addition to resource cost, of course.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

09-30-2007, 07:37 PM

Yes, going back and re-reading what I typed, I can see where it sounds like I'm saying that's all I'd build in the first month. That's not what I meant. I wasn't going to write out an entire build path for a full month as that path is going to depend a TON on the map layout, resource piles and mine locations & protection. I was giving a brief look at the beginning of that months development and showing that it's really NOT that high in wood & ore demands and showing how much is offset simply by having an ore & wood mine. After that list I posted, the demands don't go up THAT much...plus you're still generating more wood & ore. It's really not that much of a concern. If you see that it "may" turn into a concern, then that's what scouting is for. You find the items you need and get them as early as possible. Sorry for the confusion. And the comment about only wizards and necros being able to be successful with only 1-3 dwellings in the first month, I didn't mean only building those 3 dwellings, but rather purchasing from only those 3 dwellings. What can I say, I think faster than I type. :O)

In regards to your list, Seven Lakes, Windrose & War of the Worlds I play quite a bit. Especially War of the Worlds. And yes, I use mini's on all of those quite a bit too. However, with seven lakes I have to be much more careful about when I make them, as it's considerably longer to return artis for destruction due to the island nature of the map, unless I get a neutral academy, then it's REALLY easy. Fun map though. Subter. Treasures...I don't really play very much, I just don't really care for the map that much. Not just with Academy, but with any faction. As for other large & extra large maps, those are all much EASIER to use artificer than the others. Not the other way around. The bigger the map, the easier it is to leverage artificer. Small maps, you pretty much have to rush for income then dwellings and pray. :O) In general, I tend to play the large maps most of the time. The bigger, the better I say.

As for your suggestion on artificer changes, I kinda like it. I personally don't think they need that much help with it, but those certainly don't seem like overpowering changes. External artifact merchant used for artificer mini creations. Nice. The skill arcane forge though, I'm not sure about. It just doesn't make sence to me to be able to "forge" something without a forge present. I don't know.

Elodin

09-30-2007, 08:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
As for other large & extra large maps, those are all much EASIER to use artificer than the others. Not the other way around. The bigger the map, the easier it is to leverage artificer. ....

External artifact merchant used for artificer mini creations. Nice. The skill arcane forge though, I'm not sure about. It just doesn't make sence to me to be able to "forge" something without a forge present. I don't know. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What I mean is it is on larger maps it is difficult to return to your town to build artifacts once you begin conquest because of long journey. Of course if there are random Academy towns on map that helps.

As for skill arcane forge, what I meant was a spell essentially summoning arcane forge to wizard(require one built in your town.) No different from summoning a creature really (except forge vanishes when artifact creations screen is exited.)

Elodin

10-01-2007, 12:28 AM

I decided to give War of the Worlds a go and here is summary:

War of the Worlds
Starting heroe Jhora, got Galib in tavern, evercold icicle

Month 1 Week 4 Day 7:
29 wood 22 ore
0 mercury (haven't captured a mine yet)
13 crystal (no mine)
7 sulphur
18 gems
10481 gold

Dwellings
Upgraded gremlin
upgraded gargoyle
base golem foundry
base mage tower
base colosus dwelling
castle
capital
Marketplace

Spells in guild
divine strength
fire trap (my main spell) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
weakness

cleansing
wasp swarm http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
vulnerability

righteous might
earthquake http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
fireball

magic immunity
summon elementals http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

level 5 not built

Shrines: Magic Fist

Jhora (level 13)
3 att/2def/8spell power/10 knowledge (with artifacts)
Artifacts: (worn)
Breastplate of Eldrich Might
Dragon Teeth necklace
4 leaf clover

Her natural spell power is only 3 so she was very lucky to find 2 spell power boosters to get it to 8.

Skills:
Sorcery (expert)--->Arcane Training, Counterspell
Summoning(expert)-->Master of Earthblood
Dark Magic (basic) (gambled here) hopefully library reveals more dark

Town Bonus: Ore (nice bonus for wizard)

Mines:
2xlumber (1 captured week4)
1xOre
1xsulphur
2xgems (1 captured week 4)

Jhora did not go back to town after she saw earthquake and summon elementals in guild. She was too sick. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif She did not want to go back to town to make level 1 artifact either.

Jhora is riding back to get troops and take crystal mine and abandoned mine (I assume is mercury) in her territory while gold accumulates for troops and resource for mage guild 5/library. Rakasha will be skipped entirely for long while probably. She will ride for teal player as quickly as she can. Djinn dwelling will be build for tower fodder.

petarkos

10-01-2007, 04:14 AM

Hello Chuck, Elodin & others! First off, I must admit, very interesting thread Chuck! Pure pleasure reading! And another special thanx to you, coz you initiated me to the charms of Academy. My favourite faction in HoMM 3, I was hugely dissapointed by them in HoMM 5. The reason? I couldn't find my early game strategy. Was getting wiped by creeps I was eating big time with other factions. How? Well, I have simply overseen the fact that Grem's an Archangel now... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

On more serious note, as you may or may not know, I am a Dungeon player, and am gettin around fine as Haven, and Necro. All in all, I'd call myself an average player; except on my fetish map: Dragon Pass. That map I know by heart (meaning reeealy by heart) Your analysis made me want to play it with the lone faction I never tried it with. I annihilated even HAVEN! Faction has an awsome potential late game. And if you find Pendant of Mastery, then it's truly imba... (well, not that I'd call differently +13 Paladins per week, favorite toy of a cheating AI...) Like come on, put that Ring of speed off the hero and put the combo of Lion's Crown and Ring of Speed on each unit. Hurts, yeah...

Now about the discussion... Knowing as I said pretty well the map Dragon Pass, and having tried thrice with Academy, never having Galib in tavern (but every time Havez http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)Resourcefulness was out of reach (btw, as an 'advanced strategy' tip to Academy newbies, any particular reason why dont you pick Luck with your main hero?) And what I discovered, where you certainly have enough wood, I cannot possibly see how do you manage to spare ANY ore for that Armor Crushing artie? I mean Academy's need for ore is making Necro's and Haven's look pale! And yet you upgraded Golems! Quite honestly, I agree with you that you always have some rare resource in abundance, coupled with lumber, you are well off for the Gremlin's luck artie in week two. But Armor Crushing orb is an absolute no go, unless you have Galib and you are really lucky with loose resources...Not even in 25 times out of 100, I dont believe I could spare that much ore.

Other then that, I think your argument is pretty much pointless. Elodin you are right coz yeah, it's difficult to play with arties in the first couple of weeks, but don't forget that Chuck's the Academy player, ergo he knows his stuff (like if someone disputed with me that it's impossible to play Dungeon and not loose more then 10 scouts and 3 Minos in first month). Chuck, unless you have a general Heroes mastery, and Academy in particular, not everyone can go that path...But, if Chuck is going to be pissed into another step-by-step anlysis for another map (or another starting color of Dragon Pass, say red? :-)), then Elodin, please, by all means, continue to chew on his nerves :-)))

Cheers everyone!

Jolly-Joker

10-01-2007, 04:57 AM

Umm, Elodin, the starting position would be nice.
Petarkos, you are wrong about the Ore, not to mention the wood.
I decided to start a game with the Undreground treasures map to prove my point. I'm working now and can't play on, but here's my fay-by day report so far. Note that I already play ToE (sorry, guys http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ).

SUBTERRANAN TREASURES
I pick blue and Academy and leave everything else at random.

DAY 1: I get Faiz as my hero. The bonus are 3 additional gems. Town bio tells me, I'll get First Aid Tents.
I build the Tavern and get Nur. No surprises with starting troops except they are low. I'll take Nur as my main hero, and since she has Eldritch Arow, the guild is not too pressing.
Since I intent to add the Gremlins to my meager starting forces I collect a pile of Ore and a campfire with Crystals with Faiz and go back to town with him while Nur ventures out. Strong stacks all along. This will get tough.

DAY 2: I build Gremlins and Faiz ships them to Nur. Nur picks up another campfire with Ore and discovers the Sawmill when she goes to the Power-buff. Still no Ore Pit visible (yeah, I know it's in the underground), but the two Ore finds make for some reserve. Since the Sawmill is guarded by Rogues, Wood is low and no Wood stacks seem to lie at the Sawmill I decide to go for them first.

Day 3: A horde of Rogues are beaten with no losses, and I capture the sawmill. No spare piles, though, and as ridiculous as it is I may have a slight Wood problem. The only Wood I see is a stack guarded by a Horde of Vermin.
Faiz has liberated a campfire with more Gems and located a Gargoyle dwelling. Good. Still no Ore and strong stacks. I have to make a building decision:
Going with upgraded Gremlins and Golems will cost my full Ore and I will very probably at least have to forgo the Parapet. It could become worse if I can't find any Ore; in that case my economy would suffer. Moreover I have to keep near the town to pick up the troops and the longer that takes the less likely is an Ore find. I have to find the best building sequence here.
I need a stronger force than my 62 Gremlins, that's for sure, and the option I will take is going for the Saboteur upgrade and leave it at that. That means, I start with the Gremlin upgrade because I won't get along without it and finally build that. As a consequence I bypass Sylanna's Tree and head back to town intending to liberate the WM Factory and buy a full set of WMs there. With the WM available, War Machines as a skill would be very nice to have.

DAY 4: WM Factory is guarded by Lots of Dryads. I lose 1 Garg and buy the a full set of War Machines. Back home by way of a luck booster (+3) and stopping a couple of steps short of town.
Faiz liberates a pile of Sulfur and flags and buys the Gargoyles. I build the MG 1. Haste, Sorrow and Fire Trap. A nice selection – but pretty useless without some skill in the respective magic.

DAY 5: My possible builds are Stone Parapet and Arcane Forge (only 4 W). I would build the Forge and forge an arti for the Grems right now – except I'm 1 Merc short for the Initiative one which is a bit unlucky at this point. On the other hand the ore situation could have been worse, so I'm not going to complain. If I want Golems I have to wait this turn then build Blacksmith and Golems and no Town Hall until at least turn 8. Since I will grade up to Saboteurs I'll go with the Gargs, hire out and hope for the best.
The next decision is about Faiz. Do I venture further with him and plunder the goods or do I go back to town, transfer the Gargs and bring in the reinforcements day 8? Since there are many chests around and money is short due to the buying of the WMs I decide to hire a new hero an day 8, and consequently I send Faiz forth to pick up things. He converts 2 loose chests into gold.
Nur hasn't done much up to this point and it's time she earns her salary. I grade Gremlins up to Saboteurs, hire the Gargs and move out. Three battles are waiting in the town vicinity: 2 chests against a Horde of Saboteurs, an Arena against a pack of Blood Sisters and a throng of Skelly Archers for a Learning Stone and a level 1 spell shrine. I have 3 Luck picked up and while this will be the longer way I'll start with the Sisters because the gain will help me in the next fights (taking defense) since I intend to fight the Saboteurs with Nur mainly so Luck wouldn't help me there. I do so and find 19 Sisters that cost me 5 Gargoyles. I level up and get offered War Machines, Adv. Sorcery and MotW, a tough pick, but I CAN'T pass War Machines up.
In the Arena I take Defense.
The Saboteurs prove pretty effective and I lose 8 Gargs. I level up for 1 Defense, and since I need MotW I can't take another skill even though Luck is offered.. I get Ballista and Catapult offered and take Ballista.

DAY 6: Since Faiz doesn't locate any ore for future picking (not even guarded), I say good-bye to the Golems and build the Town Hall.
Nur picks up a chest for exp and 1 Power and gets MotW. She takes money for the other chest. I plan to liberate the Windmill on day 7, but when I check distances I find that I may have overestimated my range. I will have to forgo the Archers in order to reach it. Maybe it's better anyway. A throng may be nasty and if I lose too many Gremlins I have a problem – all that for 1000 exp and no res? Nope. Straight to the mill.

Day 7: Faiz finally locates an unguarded stack of ore for the taking tomorrow.
Nur proceeds to the mill where she beats a horde of Zombies with no losses, gets Gems and liberates a pile of Sulfur and Crystals each and a chest for money. The resource situation is a bit silly. I have tons of Gems, Sulfur and Crystal, but Merc proves as elusive as Ore which is really a shame. It's no temptation to build the Market and exchange 1 Merc for an init arti – I can't afford throwing around with resources on the Market.
Besides there are lots of Knowledge buffs to be gained on the map that Faiz has discovered. I'll have to go underground asap, find and liberate Ore Pit and Alchemist lab and THEN go back to town. I build the Blacksmith.

DAY 8: Faiz liberates 7 ore and locates a pile of Merc and the second Academy. I notice that it's the week of might. A look into the Tavern and Havez is grinning at me.
This is awkward. As good as this is, week of might and Havez is too good and ruins things. I reload the autosave from day 7, repeat the fight against the Zombies, save and build the Market, but no luck. Several tries later it's clear there's no way round Havez. I decide to go with him, but use only ONE of his Gremlin stacks (which I upgrade). As small compensation for the now missing 9 or so Gargoyles INSTEAD of buying the 20 Saboteurs I just upgrade a second stack saving 400 gold, leaving Havez a stack of basic Gremlins and further 20 Gremlins in town.
I move out wih Havez and the Gremlins and give them Nur after her hitting the mill and finding 4 Ore. Her troops are now 112 Saboteurs, 18 Gargoyles and 2 Golems. She proceeds to clear the Vermin without losses, gets one Knowledge and an easy pick between adv. Sorcery and Enlightenment, picks Sorcery and moves on.

DAY 9: Faiz liberates Merc, sees lots of Gargoyle defenders in the 2nd Academy and starts turning back.
Havez picks up a campfire with yet more Merc and a chest for gold giving me the funds to build the City Hall which I do.
I'm realizing now that my decisions were very unlucky. Had I moved Faiz differently (chosing the other direction) and attacked the Vermin earlier I could already have an artifact of Initiative. In this special case I'm not that pissed about that since Nur's Knowledge would have been a bit too low for good effect. I'll stick with my plan, hit the underground and flag mines. I need to scout the underground out quickly, so I will take both support heroes with me.
There's a Stable enroute, but that one is guarded by a horde of Harpooners and while I would love to hit the Stables, the Harpooners do much more damage than the other Dwarven level 2 upgrade; with the week of might this will amount to a lot of losses, at least 20, maybe even 30 Saboteurs which I can't afford. It would be a different story with some more help, an arti, luck booster or the First Aid skill, but so I pass on this one.
Instead I move to kill a Horde of Orcish Warmongers guarding the Cursed Ring which I liberate. Sadly I lose 1 Golem due to too much moral boosters for the Mongers. I level up and am offered Defense which is nice, and I take it, of course. I take a look onto the new skill wheel and see that I can get Preparation which would be quite good with Steel Golems, but I'd need Offense and Tactics for that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
End of day 9 I have the following resources:
7 W, 13 O, 13 M, 13 C, 12 S, 16 G. Nur is rolling now, being 0 3 4 6, lots of buffs to hit and ready to hit the underground next turn and start working there. With a second Sawmill in sight my resource problems will be over within a few days.

Elodin

10-01-2007, 05:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Umm, Elodin, the starting position would be nice.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, sorry, was Orange position (lower right hand corner.)

Abandoned mine turned out to be gold mine.

I had initially skipped crystal mine because was guarded by Archliches. Jhorra's spell power of 2 just could not haddle that so it had to be put off untill she returned in week 5.

Oh, JJ, use a space every now again to break up your report so it is easier to read please. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Whoa! I see you are playing with TOTE creatures!
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-01-2007, 06:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by petarkos:
Now about the discussion... Knowing as I said pretty well the map Dragon Pass, and having tried thrice with Academy, never having Galib in tavern (but every time Havez http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)Resourcefulness was out of reach (btw, as an 'advanced strategy' tip to Academy newbies, any particular reason why dont you pick Luck with your main hero?) And what I discovered, where you certainly have enough wood, I cannot possibly see how do you manage to spare ANY ore for that Armor Crushing artie? I mean Academy's need for ore is making Necro's and Haven's look pale! And yet you upgraded Golems! Quite honestly, I agree with you that you always have some rare resource in abundance, coupled with lumber, you are well off for the Gremlin's luck artie in week two. But Armor Crushing orb is an absolute no go, unless you have Galib and you are really lucky with loose resources...Not even in 25 times out of 100, I dont believe I could spare that much ore.
! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In terms of Luck on a main hero. The main reason I pass on that is the lack of useful secondary skills. Sure, resourcefulness is very useful, but a secondary hero can give you the exact same advantage with no drop off. Spoils of War & Tear of Asha vision are nearly pointless. If the bonus for Spoils were greater, then I could make a case for it. Soldiers luck has absolutely no effect at all for any of Academy's units. That leaves only magic resistance. I can compensate for that loss thru mini-artis. It's not that Luck is a bad skill, it's not, it's great. But it doesn't add enough to a main hero and it allows me to get a different skill that can either enhance my strengths or cover up my weaknesses.

As for the Ore...let me guess, you went for the castle early on. There are certain times and certain maps that you can't do the ore-based mini-artis. I won't deny that. But that doesn't mean you can't use artificer. Defense, Initiative, Luck, Health, Magic Protection...none of them require ore.

And lastly, while I do prefer Academy (obviously), I do know the other factions very well too. The only one I don't play is Haven. I simply dislike that faction. I think it's mainly due to being forced to play it in every campaign first. Just a personal preference I guess.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-01-2007, 07:00 AM

JJ's post just reminded me why I didn't like Subterranean Treasures. It was like week 2 before you could even get an Ore mine. That stunts your growth so badly for every town that I just didn't enjoy playing it. I mean, being able to get a 2nd matching starting town in the first week is great, but not being able to really build anything in EITHER town is very frustrating. *shrugs*

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-01-2007, 07:07 AM

Elodin, the big thing on your play-by-play that I would've done differently would have been to go for the Library before building either the level 3 or 4 guild, maybe the 3 but definitely not the level 4. With the evercold icicle, getting ice bolt would've been a HUGE asset. And if you missed it in level 2, level 3 gives you a shot at circle of winter. Either way, it also gives you a great indicator of what spell school to shoot for. And you want that info as early as possible.

Jolly-Joker

10-01-2007, 08:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
JJ's post just reminded me why I didn't like Subterranean Treasures. It was like week 2 before you could even get an Ore mine. That stunts your growth so badly for every town that I just didn't enjoy playing it. I mean, being able to get a 2nd matching starting town in the first week is great, but not being able to really build anything in EITHER town is very frustrating. *shrugs* </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't mind that. Actually I think the map is fun to play. I've played it only once, though, and with the Inferno, I think, but it was one of the first maps I ever played and I can't remember much.

Pitsu

10-01-2007, 11:11 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I cannot possibly see how do you manage to spare ANY ore for that Armor Crushing artie? I mean Academy's need for ore is making Necro's and Haven's look pale! And yet you upgraded Golems! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can also note that the ore cost of academy lower dwellings has reduced from patch to patch. I do not care enough to check it, but IIRC even the latest patch of original game i.e. 1.5 has gargoyle ore cost 10+10 while in HoF it is only 5+0. In one of the earlier patches upgrading gremlins was additional +5 compared to nowadays. In future (like the one that JJ is playing) building gargs perhaps brings you some ore in...
Maybe Nival is aware of little need for miniarties in early game and has therefore done these adjustments. Don't ask me about their efectivenes, however.

Elodin

10-01-2007, 12:51 PM

Subterraneon Treasures (Blue Player)
Artifact: Earth Slippers
Town Bonus:

Day1: Build Tavern

Nathir hired Narxes and Maeve. Nathir leads 2 footmen, 6 archers, 24 peasants, 26 gremlin, 1 mage, 19 gargoyles.

To left of town Horde of conscripts guard 2 treasure chests. Go for it. Lost 1 single peasant stack with no spells used.
1000 gold x 2 I have wanted 1000 exp but with only 500 exp chests I take gold.

War Dancers guard spell shrine, no chance there.

Maeve picks up 6 wood and campfire (4 ore 400 gold.)

Narxes pouts in town because Natihir is main heroe.

Day 2: Build Workshop
Maeve gets campfire 5 crystal 500 gold, Windmill 3 crystal.

Narxes stops pouting and takes gremlins to Nathir who heads north.

Day3 Bleh, dirt eats up movement. Build Parapet Narxes complains about being shuttle.

Maeve campfire 4 merc 400 gold. Smokey the Bear would be mad about these campfire. 1000 gold pile.

Nathir kills horde of conscripts guarding war machine factory. Lost 8 peasants. Still no spells. Troops ask him if he is
really a wizard. He is level 2 and got magic mirror. Buys the war machines.

Nathir leads gargoyles against assassins guarding lumber mill. 4 gargoyles lost. No spells. Troops begin to grumble. Narxes gets his hopes up.

Day4: Build marketplace. Severe ore shortage (only 4)
Maeve visits stone parapet and orders gargoyles go to town. 2 sulphur piles (7 total)

Nathir rides to planetarium and Narxes back in town.

Day 5: Nathir takes on defenders guarding treasure cache in front of thieves guild. Lose 1 peasant. Cast his first fireball. Troops hapier now. Advanced Artificer. 12 wood 500 gold. Takes 1000 exp.

Nathir takes on archers guarding stables. Maeve 2000 gold chest.

Not enough ore is putting damper on building and finance. Unable to build mage guild requrired for town hall.

Trades 10 wood for 1 ore. Builds town hall. (Divine strength Fire Trap Weakness.)

Narxes rides out, picking up gargoyles in caravan. He hopes to help Nathir speed things up not that he knows a few spells.

Day 6: Narxes visits planetarium and delivers gargoyles to Nathir.
Nathir kills lots of ghosts guarding prison (lose 11 peasants, 1 footman, 5 gargoyle.) Gained mark of wizard. Rescued Ylthin.
Ylthin rides towards town to help shuttle troops for new week.

Nathir visits well and idol of fortune, praying for ore.

Maeve visit dolmen of knowledge gaining estates. Nowhere does she see ore.

Build Town Hall.

Day 7: Maeve picks up 1000 gold pile. Ylthin reaches town.
Nathir takes on spearwielders guarding underground entrance. Advanced Destruction. Lost some gargoyles. (forgot record)

Nathir visits merc camp + crystal of revelation

Narxes grabs 1000 gold treasure chest

With no ore, upgrade parapet

Start new week:

Week2 Day1: ( 13 wood 0 ore 11 mercury 13 crystal 12 sulpher 5 gems 4853 gold )

Maeve finds 5 ore! She begins to go south since she explored as far as can.

Narxes goes underground and finds ore mine! He continues scouting south.

Nathir grabs gargoyles from parapet, visits well, and prays at idle again. Can't quite go underground.

Ylthin hires gremlins and obsidian gargoyles and heads out.

Build Blacksmith with ore Maeve found.

Week2 Day2: No build. Waiting for gold for city hall.

Maeve continues to ride south.
Ylthin can't reach Nathir who goes underground and fights horde of skeleton archers for precious ore mine. Lost 1 gargoyle, used 2 fireballs. He has enough mana for 2 more. Narxes is scouting so Nathir must grab mine himself. He leaves ore piles for Maeve.

Narxes finds Dolman of Knowledge and gets Mark of Wizard. He sees crystal mine. Nathir heads east to reach crystal mine.

Week2 Day3: No build.

Maeve gets 4 ore. Pick up other pile tomorrow. Ylthin heads towards Nathir. Nathir depletes his mana against horde of marksmen. Loses: 11 gargoyles 6 archers 3 peasants Nathir learns basic war machines! That should help a lot especially now that he has no mana 4 mana left ( 1 attack 7 spell power, 4 knowledge)

Narxes grabs 7 crystals from 2 piles and claims mine. Narxes rides north and sees alchemist mine (with 2 sulphur piles)

Narxes was not paying attention and blocked Nathirs path (horde of crossbowmen guard witch hut to right). Nathir scowls and
tells Narxes if he does it again he will be dismissed. Grabs troops from nearby Ylthin and stops behind Narxes.

Week2 Day4: Build City Hall
Maeve grabs 4 ore by mine and heads back towards town.

Narxes scouts north and spots sulphur mine in dead end. Nathir attack horde of plague zombies guarding mercury mine He claims mine and heads towards sulphur mine (which have 2 mercury piles.) Narxes can earn his keep and pick up piles since he can scout no more north.

Ylthin explores south, spotting gem mine.

Week2 Day5: Build Golem forge

Nathir capture sulphur mine from lots of crossbowmen. Nathir had mana for 1 fireball. Lost 1 Unicorn and 13 pixies (Ylthin's troops.) He learns Ballista and rides south towards gem mine.

Narxes claims mine and picks up 6 mercury from 2 piles then heads to pick up sulphur piles by mercury mine

Maeve continues towards town.

Ylthin reaches dead end by gem mine and claims golem forge.

Behind his back the troops call Nathir The Reluctant Wizard because of seldom use of spells.

Week2 Day6:
Narxes grabs 5 sulphur from 2 piles and heads towards Dolmen of Knowledge.

Nathir continues towards gem mine. Ylthin waits by forge.

Maeve reaches town.

No build.

Week2 Day7:

Ylthin buys golems and gives to Nathir.

Nathir visits Dolmen and attack zombie horde at gem mine.(lose 2 gargoyles 5 bladedancers (last of Ylthin troops)) He gets in a fireball. Gain Advanced War Machines.

Yltin picks up 4 gems from 2 piles and tags mine, goes back to golem forge since new week is tomorrow.

Week3 Day1 (22 wood 20 ore 18 mercury 25 crystal 20 sulphur 5 gems 7186 gold)
Build resource silo

Build Resource Silo
Ylthin hires golems for Nathir.
Narxes, Ylthin, and Nathir ride for surface. Maeve throws wild party in town.

Week3 Day2: Build Altar of Wishes
Narxes heads towards town to shuttle troops
Nathir exit surface. Pray at idol. Ylthin not quite on surface.

Week3Day3 Build Treasure Cave
Nathir visit well, heads towards second town. Narxis 6 crystal from windmill, positions for troop shuttle. Ylthin rides to do squire duty for Nathir.

Week3Day4 Build Mage Tower
Nathir decides to visit crystal of knowledge and rides towards 2nd lumber mill.

Week3 Day5:
Nathir attack imp horde guarding lumber mill losing 17 mana but no troops. He attacks lots of blood maidens guarding stables. (lose 3 gargoyles) Used 1 fireball. Ylthin flags lumber mill and heads towards stables.

Week3 Day6:
Nathir is not going to be able to reach 2nd town today so he passes troops to Ylthin who visits stables and takes town. (special is mages) Nathir visits stables and dolmen of knowledge. Learns First Aid.

Week3 Day7: Build capitol
Nathir grabs 600 gold pile by garrison allowing capitol to be built. Visits tattered flag and heads back towards stables. Yilthin rides back to stables with troops.

Week4 Day1 (32 wood 14 ore 17 mercury 38 crystal 17 sulphur 14 gems 5533 gold)
Build Marketplace (second town)
Build Fort (1st town)

Nathir visit stables. Attack throng of demons guarding arena. Lose 1 archer (Ythin was carrying.) Learns +2 Attack. Can't quite reach planetarium.

Ylthin visits Dolmen, learns Deadeye shot.
Narxes visits windmill for 6 sulphur and returns to his station.

Week4 Day2: Build resource silo (2nd town)
Narxes visits planetarium. He rides towards first town. There are caches that need to be taken.
Nothing for Ylthin to do but ride with Nathir.

Week4 Day3: Build Citadel

Nathir stops by well and attacks gargoyle horde guarding lion's mane and continues west towards first town.

Week4 Day4: No Build
Nathir attack horned overseer guarding small cache by windmill. Finally reach level 10: Expert War Machines.
Ylthin picks up the goodies 2000 gold 3 gems 4sulphur

Nathir attack blood furies guarding Marletto Tower. No loses.

Week4 Day5: Built Mage guild2
Jezebeth (level13) showed up(few pit lords, pack hell hounds, lots familiars, several succubi) interrupting plans to hit cache by starting town. Nathir went to town to restore mana and hire all possible troops. Now he knows divine strenght, fire trap, weakness, endurance, raise dead, decay. No 2nd level destruction. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Hires all troops but 2 djinn. Army is 66 obsidian gargoyle, 126 gremlin, 11 mages, 47 iron golem, 6djinn. Stays in town.

Week4 Day6: Build Arcane Forge Trade 8 crystal for 2 ore. Created a few miniartifacts because I was nervous. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Week4 Day7: Able to squeak castle in
Came out and attacked Jezebeth. Lost 2 djinn and 2 gargoyles. First aid tent saved 2 mages. Learned Sap Magic.

Attacked griffins guarding cache by town. Lost 4 golems. Took chest for experience. Learned basic sorcery. Visit crystal of revelation.
Narxes picks up 5 ore, 4 sulphur 3 gems. He grabs troops from Nathir and breaks down artifacts.
(Builds castle.)

25 wood 2 ore 21 mercury 34 crystal 35 sulphur 35 gems 3944 gold

Thoughts: Severe ore shortage. Had to trade for ore on day five to build mage guild to allow town hall or it would have been disaster. Only a level 2 mage guild at this point. Week2 Day1: finding ore pile was crucial too. Not enough ore or wood on this map at all. Forget artifacts in month1. You have to push hard to get building material.

Elodin

10-01-2007, 02:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
In terms of Luck on a main hero. The main reason I pass on that is the lack of useful secondary skills. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

However, in TOTE that is changing. Remember Warlock's Luck. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Jhora and Nur no longer look as attractive since they can't learn distract and miss counterspell to get warlock's luck.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-01-2007, 04:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
In terms of Luck on a main hero. The main reason I pass on that is the lack of useful secondary skills. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

However, in TOTE that is changing. Remember Warlock's Luck. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Jhora and Nur no longer look as attractive since they can't learn distract and miss counterspell to get warlock's luck. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yeah. I know. EVERYTHING changes in a few days. :O) But as you know, I was talking about HoF.

As a side note, you know JJ, we're all jealous as hell....and posting that you're playing TotE is torture. So either you hang up the game until we can ALL play it or I'll include "Inferno Sucks" in every post I make until then. I also suggest everyone else does the same. *evil grin*

Ahem....INFERNO SUCKS!!!!

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-01-2007, 05:02 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
Thoughts: Severe ore shortage. Had to trade for ore on day five to build mage guild to allow town hall or it would have been disaster. Only a level 2 mage guild at this point. Week2 Day1: finding ore pile was crucial too. Not enough ore or wood on this map at all. Forget artifacts in month1. You have to push hard to get building material. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. This is one specific map that mini-arti's will have to wait a LONG time. But then again, all towns will suffer quite a bit on this map in terms of resources. That ore crunch is a pain.

~edit~ Almost forgot. INFERNO SUCKS!!!!

PhoenixReborn06

10-01-2007, 09:16 PM

Jolly-Joker

10-02-2007, 12:18 AM

Chuck, blame Elodin! This is my revenge for being forced into this! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I'm continuing my game report now. I hope you have a bit of fun reading it.
I'm copying the first part in for ease of reading:

SUBTERRANAN TREASURES
I pick blue and Academy and leave everything else at random.

DAY 1: I get Faiz as my hero. The bonus are 3 additional gems. Town bio tells me, I'll get First Aid Tents.
I build the Tavern and get Nur. No surprises with starting troops except they are low. I'll take Nur as my main hero, and since she has Eldritch Arow, the guild is not too pressing.
Since I intent to add the Gremlins to my meager starting forces I collect a pile of Ore and a campfire with Crystals with Faiz and go back to town with him while Nur ventures out. Strong stacks all along. This will get tough.

DAY 2: I build Gremlins and Faiz ships them to Nur. Nur picks up another campfire with Ore and discovers the Sawmill when she goes to the Power-buff. Still no Ore Pit visible (yeah, I know it's in the underground), but the two Ore finds make for some reserve. Since the Sawmill is guarded by Rogues, Wood is low and no Wood stacks seem to lie at the Sawmill I decide to go for them first.

Day 3: A horde of Rogues are beaten with no losses, and I capture the sawmill. No spare piles, though, and as ridiculous as it is I may have a slight Wood problem. The only Wood I see is a stack guarded by a Horde of Vermin.
Faiz has liberated a campfire with more Gems and located a Gargoyle dwelling. Good. Still no Ore and strong stacks. I have to make a building decision:
Going with upgraded Gremlins and Golems will cost my full Ore and I will very probably at least have to forgo the Parapet. It could become worse if I can't find any Ore; in that case my economy would suffer. Moreover I have to keep near the town to pick up the troops and the longer that takes the less likely is an Ore find. I have to find the best building sequence here.
I need a stronger force than my 62 Gremlins, that's for sure, and the option I will take is going for the Saboteur upgrade and leave it at that. That means, I start with the Gremlin upgrade because I won't get along without it and finally build that. As a consequence I bypass Sylanna's Tree and head back to town intending to liberate the WM Factory and buy a full set of WMs there. With the WM available, War Machines as a skill would be very nice to have.

DAY 4: WM Factory is guarded by Lots of Dryads. I lose 1 Garg and buy the a full set of War Machines. Back home by way of a luck booster (+3) and stopping a couple of steps short of town.
Faiz liberates a pile of Sulfur and flags and buys the Gargoyles. I build the MG 1. Haste, Sorrow and Fire Trap. A nice selection – but pretty useless without some skill in the respective magic.

DAY 5: My possible builds are Stone Parapet and Arcane Forge (only 4 W). I would build the Forge and forge an arti for the Grems right now – except I'm 1 Merc short for the Initiative one which is a bit unlucky at this point. On the other hand the ore situation could have been worse, so I'm not going to complain. If I want Golems I have to wait this turn then build Blacksmith and Golems and no Town Hall until at least turn 8. Since I will grade up to Saboteurs I'll go with the Gargs, hire out and hope for the best.
The next decision is about Faiz. Do I venture further with him and plunder the goods or do I go back to town, transfer the Gargs and bring in the reinforcements day 8? Since there are many chests around and money is short due to the buying of the WMs I decide to hire a new hero an day 8, and consequently I send Faiz forth to pick up things. He converts 2 loose chests into gold.
Nur hasn't done much up to this point and it's time she earns her salary. I grade Gremlins up to Saboteurs, hire the Gargs and move out. Three battles are waiting in the town vicinity: 2 chests against a Horde of Saboteurs, an Arena against a pack of Blood Sisters and a throng of Skelly Archers for a Learning Stone and a level 1 spell shrine. I have 3 Luck picked up and while this will be the longer way I'll start with the Sisters because the gain will help me in the next fights (taking defense) since I intend to fight the Saboteurs with Nur mainly so Luck wouldn't help me there. I do so and find 19 Sisters that cost me 5 Gargoyles. I level up and get offered War Machines, Adv. Sorcery and MotW, a tough pick, but I CAN'T pass War Machines up.
In the Arena I take Defense.
The Saboteurs prove pretty effective and I lose 8 Gargs. I level up for 1 Defense, and since I need MotW I can't take another skill even though Luck is offered.. I get Ballista and Catapult offered and take Ballista.

DAY 6: Since Faiz doesn't locate any ore for future picking (not even guarded), I say good-bye to the Golems and build the Town Hall.
Nur picks up a chest for exp and 1 Power and gets MotW. She takes money for the other chest. I plan to liberate the Windmill on day 7, but when I check distances I find that I may have overestimated my range. I will have to forgo the Archers in order to reach it. Maybe it's better anyway. A throng may be nasty and if I lose too many Gremlins I have a problem – all that for 1000 exp and no res? Nope. Straight to the mill.

Day 7: Faiz finally locates an unguarded stack of ore for the taking tomorrow.
Nur proceeds to the mill where she beats a horde of Zombies with no losses, gets Gems and liberates a pile of Sulfur and Crystals each and a chest for money. The resource situation is a bit silly. I have tons of Gems, Sulfur and Crystal, but Merc proves as elusive as Ore which is really a shame. It's no temptation to build the Market and exchange 1 Merc for an init arti – I can't afford throwing around with resources on the Market.
Besides there are lots of Knowledge buffs to be gained on the map that Faiz has discovered. I'll have to go underground asap, find and liberate Ore Pit and Alchemist lab and THEN go back to town. I build the Blacksmith.

DAY 8: Faiz liberates 7 ore and locates a pile of Merc and the second Academy. I notice that it's the week of might. A look into the Tavern and Havez is grinning at me.
This is awkward. As good as this is, week of might and Havez is too good and ruins things. I reload the autosave from day 7, repeat the fight against the Zombies, save and build the Market, but no luck. Several tries later it's clear there's no way round Havez. I decide to go with him, but use only ONE of his Gremlin stacks (which I upgrade). As small compensation for the now missing 9 or so Gargoyles INSTEAD of buying the 20 Saboteurs I just upgrade a second stack saving 400 gold, leaving Havez a stack of basic Gremlins and further 20 Gremlins in town.
I move out wih Havez and the Gremlins and give them Nur after her hitting the mill and finding 4 Ore. Her troops are now 112 Saboteurs, 18 Gargoyles and 2 Golems. She proceeds to clear the Vermin without losses, gets one Knowledge and an easy pick between adv. Sorcery and Enlightenment, picks Sorcery and moves on.

DAY 9: Faiz liberates Merc, sees lots of Gargoyle defenders in the 2nd Academy and starts turning back.
Havez picks up a campfire with yet more Merc and a chest for gold giving me the funds to build the City Hall which I do.
I'm realizing now that my decisions were very unlucky. Had I moved Faiz differently (chosing the other direction) and attacked the Vermin earlier I could already have an artifact of Initiative. In this special case I'm not that pissed about that since Nur's Knowledge would have been a bit too low for good effect. I'll stick with my plan, hit the underground and flag mines. I need to scout the underground out quickly, so I will take both support heroes with me.
There's a Stable enroute, but that one is guarded by a horde of Harpooners and while I would love to hit the Stables, the Harpooners do much more damage than the other Dwarven level 2 upgrade; with the week of might this will amount to a lot of losses, at least 20, maybe even 30 Saboteurs which I can't afford. It would be a different story with some more help, an arti, luck booster or the First Aid skill, but so I pass on this one.
Instead I move to kill a Horde of Orcish Warmongers guarding the Cursed Ring which I liberate. Sadly I lose 1 Golem due to too much moral boosters for the Mongers. I level up and am offered Defense which is nice, and I take it, of course. I take a look onto the new skill wheel and see that I can get Preparation which would be quite good with Steel Golems, but I'd need Offense and Tactics for that.
End of day 9 I have the following resources:
7 W, 13 O, 13 M, 13 C, 12 S, 16 G. Nur is rolling now, being 0 3 4 6, lots of buffs to hit and ready to hit the underground next turn and start working there. With a second Sawmill in sight my resource problems will be over within a few days.

DAY 10: It's time for some troop sharing. Nur buys Gargoyles from the dwelling, proceeds to the knowledge Crystal and into the direction of the 2nd Stables guarded by lots of Wardancers. Faiz overtakes the troops and flags the 2nd Sawmill, killing a horde of Goblin trappers. Havez is coming after them into underground direction, hitting buffers enroute. I built the Golem Foundry.

DAY 11: I transfer the troops back to Nur. Faiz keeps the single Golem. Nur hits the Dancers losing 7 Gargs. She visits the learning stone for +1 Knowledge and Evasion and makes for the Horned Overseers guarding the underground entrance where Havez is waiting.
I build the ARCANE FORGE (note it's day 11).

DAY 12: I hit the Overseers without losses, visiting the Mercenary Camp enroute. Havez enters the underground and there is the Ore Pit, guarded by a horde of Shield Guards. Nur makes short work of them getting another Knowledge and expert Sorcery. The alternative was Basic Light and I realize it was only the second time I got a magic skill offered, Light both times.
Faiz flags and picks two Ore piles. Havez goes deeper into the underground and locates - nothing. Nur takes the other direction and locates a Crystal mine. Not good. I build the Mage Tower.

DAY 13: I'd have liked to build Djinns on day 13 and the Djinn horde dwelling on 14, but it looks like that won't work. Still, I want the Djinns on day 14, so the situation at hand needs careful manoeuvering of my heroes; I don't even want to be tempted to reload, so I have to do this right. I sent Havez first into his tunnel until it becomes clear that his and Nur's tunnel are connected. That's good. I COULD reach him then with my forces. However, when Havez finishes his move I see a blue pile at the fringe of his visibility that looks suspiciously like Gems. Since this is at the right edge of my underground zone I suppose I won't find Merc there. That means, Nur must not make for the Crystal Cavern, but instead head away from it. Faiz, meanwhile, can overtake the troops and flag the Cavern. I come up with Faiz and do so. Then I move Nur a couple of steps. A Witch Hut – and the Sulfur Dune not far away. Something sucks. Big time. But I'm not finished yet.
Faiz takes the Cavern, loses a Garg in the process and flags it. He doesn't pick up anything, but follows Nur, who then moves the rest of her allowance – which is within Faiz' 1-day-range. I see the Merc on the edge of Nur's vision, so everything is still possible.
I could build MG level 2 with 1 remaining Sulfur, but I abstain: I'd get a fit if I'd reach the Merc but had only the mps for 1 pile for 3 M. So, the first turn without a build.

DAY 14: Next bad news. I intended to take the Gems later with Havez because he is in position, but it's guarded by a horde of Harpooners (yet again). Nur can take them in the shape she is meanwhile – Havez definitely not. Nur attacks the plague Zombies guarding the Witch Hut, losing 3 Gargs (he's missing a destructive spell BADLY), levels up and finds out that the Witch is giving out Luck. My timing is WAY off on this map. For Nur Luck is out now. I don't intend to have her stopping development with one magic skill possible only.
Faiz transfers the army to Nur who proceeds. The good news is that I reach the Lab without problem, flag and liberate more than enough Merc to build the Djinni which I do. The somewhat irking thing is that the guardians are Horned Overseers again. Nur blasts them, of course, but switch stacks (Harpooners to Merc or Sulfur and Overseers to Gems) and everything would have been perfect, timing-wise. Now Nur will have to spend more time underground. I NEED the Gems, of course.
I send Havez back. He levels at the learning stone for Ballista.
I'm getting nervous about any enemies appearing now that 2 weeks have passed, though.

DAY 15: Nur takes the Sulfur Dune against a horde of Centaur Marauders, losing a dozen Saboteurs and levelling to adv. Defense. Faiz flags it and takes the piles. Havez heads further back.
I build the Djinn Horde.
Nur is 2 3 4 7 at level 9.
Interestingly enough Faiz has Power 7 at level 4 - but still no destructive spell. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Timing yet again.

DAY 16: Everyone moves, nothing happens. Faiz picks up 2 Crystal piles.
I don't build – saving for Capitol. This is all going too slow.

DAY 17: Everyone moves and some level up due to a visit at learning stones. It was the week of the Green Dragon, but there is not ONE on my part of the map, which means I couldn't even flee back to town, if I'd do that cheesy stunt - which I don't - not in SP, at least. I save for Capitol, of course, and don't build. I still had a look into my tavern – no Wizard to hire! Thieves guild shows a Necro, a Barbarian and another Wizard as my opponents. Jhora is main hero. Great.

DAY 18: Nur attacks the Gem mine, losing 8 Saboteurs against a horde of Harpooners – and discovers a Golem foundry, levelling up for adv. WM. Great. Now what? I order Faiz back to do the flagging and he does flag the Gem mine, so Nur gains some steps, while her units lose a couple (intending to transfer them to Havez who) is meanwhile doing the buff tour taking care to be in place to overtake the Gremlins for taking the 2nd Academy.
I build MG 2. Too much still left for Cap and a market action. Cleansing, Wasp Swarm and Lightning Bolt. Faiz has Summoning meanwhile and COULD have picked Destructive. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

DAY 19: I build Capitol. Faiz flags but can't buy. No problem. Caravans later on. Everyone is in place for troop switching.

DAY 20: I could build Fort and Citadel, but I go for Pavillon and Library which I build. Additional spells are Weakness and Decay which is nice for Faiz - should he ever reach town again, that is.
Havez takes forces to conquer the 2nd Academy.

DAY 21: Havez takes the 2nd Academy for no losses. Build Gremlins. Build Silver Pavillon. Nur heads home. I realise I didn't visit the mill this week. No problem. Resources are fine. Except Ore of course.

DAY 22: I move things, visit the mill, build the Market in the 2nd town. I hire out the dwellings and Caravan the creatures to town.

DAY 23: Nur is getting the troops back – right at a cash with the Dragonwing Mantle and some chests. She levels twice – and has a problem. Adv. Artificer. I can build a nice double arti Wood/Crystal for the Grems for +2 Luck and plus 4 or 5 defense – I have plenty Crystals and Wood and 13 Knowledge with Nur. Or I can learn Basic Summoning or Swift Ballista. Obviously I should have build MG 3 before doing the fights – but I didn't. Must be the Ore situation. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Swift Ballista is too much of an advantage now, so I take it, making the Ballista a monster.
I build – nothing. I'm short of ore, obviously.

DAY 24: Nur and Faiz end movement in town. Havez is moving into the direction of Sylannas Tree to check there. Meanwhile I have to check the building situation. My 2nd town is on hold due to the ore shortage; I can't build the MG there to increase income. I would like to build everything up to Castle and Coliseum, but for that I need 30 Ore – I'll have only 15 until day 28, though. With two Markets and another big cash at my door I see good chances to barter lots of Ore – but 15? I still have a main cache guarded by the new Dwarven level 4 upgrade and the Dolmen with the throng of skelly archers to take. But I'll need 27000 Gold as well. While I will have 30000 I want to buy some troops as well. There is one chest in the vicinity left, but I want to give Faiz that one (except a 1000 gold one). There's a big money cache at the second Den of Thieves which I wll be able to reach – barely. However, I have a lot to visit in the vicinity as well. For arties I'm going to give the Gremlins a Luck arti (+2); I have TONS of Wood and Crystal. I need more Ore, though. In the end it amounts to the question whether I will build the Castle this week or not. So I build the Fort – this is a no-brainer.
Nur builds a Luck arti for the Gremlins (which she hires, leaving 20 in for Havez), hires a Rakshasa and hands her a 13% Initiative arti bringing it to 10. She then gives Faiz all troops and leaves town with the remaining movement.
Faiz is a good 2nd meanwhile. Area Decay, area Vulnerability, Power 7, not bad.

DAY 25: 40 Gremlins come rolling in per Caravan which I upgrade. Faiz buys all Rakshasas. He has 172 Gremlin Saboteurs (with 20 still in town plus 1 stack unupgraded ones still with Havez, 64 Gargs and 4 Rakshasas and attacks the Dwarven level 4 upgrade next door. A few Gargoyles are lost, but Faiz levels and both Nur and Faiz visit the Arcane Crystal for 1 Knowledge. Nur overtakes troops and moves to Marletto Tower (leaving the skelly archers yet again, this time to have a chance reaching the big money cache).
Havez meanwhile discovers that Sylannas Tree is levelling heroes for free and moves into the direction of town.
No build. I can afford this one day without building.

DAY 26: I build the Citadel. Faiz overtakes WMs from Havez and goes to Sylannas Tree. Nur liberates Marletto Tower against a Horde Dwarven upgrade level 2, losing 5 Saboteurs, visits and proceeds to Stables.

DAY 27: Liberating the Stables cost another 5 Saboteurs. The problem is, I can't build Coliseum due to money missing, so I have to commit myself now: do I go for all and risk losing Giants for gaining a couple of other creatures? Umm, is the Pope Catholic? I barter ore on the market and build the Castle.
I see a red ship moving by, but it doesn't seem to land. Good.

DAY 28: Nice. Nur reaches the cash, fights 31 Hydras, 10 of which are upgraded, loses 2 Gargs and liberates enough money for the Coliseum. I barter around at the Market, deplete my resources and build the Coliseum.

Faiz is level 7 and 2 3 7 8 which ain't too bad for a secondary.
Nur is level 13 and 3 4 6 14 currently. Her last level-up gained here advanced Artificer which is nice because I won't build anything now except the level 3 mage guild to give her a better clue about which magic skills to take and will use week 5 to hire out. She has half of the buffers to visit and will shortly be 5 5 7 15. At least 2 but very probably 4 more level-ups are waiting for her. I'm really favoring Summoning for Nur - if level 3 guild will bring Phantom I will definitely try learning it.

I'm satisfied. I didn't do anything out of the ordinary (in fact I played rather conservatively) to reflect the fact that things should be possible not only when you play like a champion) and I certainly didn't make use of ANY of the relly helpful heroes – still I COULD have had a mini-arti as early as in week 2, had I moved Faiz differently, and I COULD have had a mini-arti in week 3 no matter what – IF my hero had been near the town.

Lastly I HAD employed artis on 2 of my 3 fighting stacks AND did the complete building-up of town within 4 weeks – yet again without employing anything out of the ordinary.

I'm going to try War of the Worlds in Orange after work.

Elodin

10-02-2007, 01:21 AM

You are obviously playing with TOTE unlike the rest of us.

So tell me, what was change to artificer? Does artifact level up only when heroe level up or when he gain knowledge from adventure location or equipment too? If he take off knowledge boosting equipment does the artifact then lower in strength?

Jolly-Joker

10-02-2007, 03:01 AM

Since I switched arties around between Faiz and Nur and nothing happened, but I got a message in another game when entering town again that my arti was strengthened I think that this is working only when you enter a town (in which case things are upgraded). I can't say for sure, though.

Besides, I played ToE, so what? That doesn't change anything. The map is the same, and while I employed one alternate upgrade I had some more difficult ToE units to beat for that. Keep in mind I deliberately picked difficult starting situation. With Galib things would have been VERY different; with Havez as well. Even Jhora might have made a difference.

Elodin

10-02-2007, 04:39 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Since I switched arties around between Faiz and Nur and nothing happened, but I got a message in another game when entering town again that my arti was strengthened I think that this is working only when you enter a town (in which case things are upgraded). I can't say for sure, though.

Besides, I played ToE, so what? That doesn't change anything. The map is the same, and while I employed one alternate upgrade I had some more difficult ToE units to beat for that. Keep in mind I deliberately picked difficult starting situation. With Galib things would have been VERY different; with Havez as well. Even Jhora might have made a difference. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah well, if it only upgrade when you enter town it is really no change then.

You call starting with Nur difficult? She is my favorite Academy creeper with her in battle mana regeneration. It also look like you found ore laying around 4 times in first 8 days. Not a typical thing I think. Havez poped up in week 2. Amazing how he always show up for some people.

Mine guardians are pretty weak in this map which is why you can creep all mines with only eldrich arrow. Ordinarily you must build more guild levels for spells. Ordinarily if you have only level 1 mage guild as wizard in week 4 you are toast against human

And of course once you head out to conquer other town you can kiss artifact swaping goodbye so have fun making and breaking level 1s while you can just to say you make them.

Is all building and unit prices the same in TOTE?

Jolly-Joker

10-02-2007, 04:59 AM

Nonono. Stop right there! I didn't use any of Havez' extra Gremlins OR War Machines. Nor did I use Galib to gain extra res.
For me Nur is useful only because of her spell; the special is pretty useless, especially because you can solve ANY mana problems via the Sorcery abilities. Jhora is WAY better in the longer run. Nathir is a killer as well, mind you - especially considering Magnet Golems.
The Mage guild situation is the same as with arties - if you far away from town you cannot use them (to learn spells).
For me the Underground Treasures map is more about long distances than anything else - you HAVE to hit the underground at some stage and once you are in it will take some time until you reach town again.
I don't understand your last question? Is all building and price the same? You mean the same as in regular 1.5? No. Level 7 CREATURES are cheaper. The rest is the same, I think. I couldn't swear on it, though.

PhoenixReborn06

10-02-2007, 06:15 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
And of course once you head out to conquer other town you can kiss artifact swaping goodbye so have fun making and breaking level 1s while you can just to say you make them.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is your argument? You said it was impossible to use artificer in the 1st month. You have been proved wrong. In fact those level 1 artifacts help. Now you are saying it is impossible to use after ther 1st month? Because you won't go back to the castle?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Elodin

10-02-2007, 06:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhoenixReborn06:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
And of course once you head out to conquer other town you can kiss artifact swaping goodbye so have fun making and breaking level 1s while you can just to say you make them.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is your argument? You said it was impossible to use artificer in the 1st month. You have been proved wrong. In fact those level 1 artifacts help. Now you are saying it is impossible to use after ther 1st month? Because you won't go back to the castle?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So part 3 of the trio shows up for backup. Actually you are wrong on both counts.

1) Here is what I said as if you care to accruately know.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you read my posts you see I said a level 1 miniartifact in month one may be possible, but is hard to make significat use of artificer for a while. Of course their are lot of variables that can change things on a map.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

3) Significant use. Sure you can make and break artifact to say, yes, I used it. But did it make impact? No. And main heroe can't spend time running back and forth to castle to make artifacts especially when town is not in central location.

4) Also, if wizard has only level 1 mage guild for a month he is dead when facing human.

5) In large maps you can't just trapse back all the way across map to make artifact or you lose.

6) Certain players tend to get lots of ore piles every game and Havez in week 1 or 2 every game, and luck hero in first week almost every game, ect. How is that possible?

7) To be quite honest, you can't compare play between different versions of game, especially version that isn't even released yet.

8) I have learned that certain people are creative writers. You can read all HOMM boards and that is pretty much standard opinion.

Why is it that all other players except company associated realize a problem with artifact system?

I guess you think the new ultimate path for wizard is just wonderful and fair too.

PhoenixReborn06

10-02-2007, 07:10 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
I guess you think the new ultimate path for wizard is just wonderful and fair too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please don't put words in my mouth.

Since you are being so sarcastic I should not answer but MY opinion is that I don't like having ultimate abilities at all. And now they are reachable by level 22.

___

To be honest I do read the boards and I haven't seen many others complaining that artificer is weak.

What if when you are out conquering you run itno an opposing wizard castle and use the arcane forge there? Hardly an unusual circumstance.

Elodin

10-02-2007, 07:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Nonono. Stop right there! I didn't use any of Havez' extra Gremlins OR War Machines. Nor did I use Galib to gain extra res.
For me Nur is useful only because of her spell; the special is pretty useless, especially because you can solve ANY mana problems via the Sorcery abilities. Jhora is WAY better in the longer run. Nathir is a killer as well, mind you - especially considering Magnet Golems.
The Mage guild situation is the same as with arties - if you far away from town you cannot use them (to learn spells).
For me the Underground Treasures map is more about long distances than anything else - you HAVE to hit the underground at some stage and once you are in it will take some time until you reach town again.
I don't understand your last question? Is all building and price the same? You mean the same as in regular 1.5? No. Level 7 CREATURES are cheaper. The rest is the same, I think. I couldn't swear on it, though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You found ore 4 times in the first 8 days (without stacks by an ore mine), which is fairly unusual. Otherwise you have had to use marketplace to get it or face disaster.

Yes, eventually any wizard will have plenty of mana, but not initially. I talked about initial creeping Nur can go and go without well or visiting castle becase she regenerate mana in battle, which is what makes her good creeper. Well, that and she starts with useful spell.

Jolly-Joker

10-02-2007, 11:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
You found ore 4 times in the first 8 days (without stacks by an ore mine), which is fairly unusual. Otherwise you have had to use marketplace to get it or face disaster.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is your main error. The Marketplace can't solve your problem on a resource poor map. What does "poor" mean? If there simply ARE no resources (no mines) you can't use the special at all, but everyone will have problems in building dwellings which makes for a silly game. So what is under discussion here is the situation when resources are there, but "difficult to come by". The reason may be, for example, that the resources are far away. There are many maps where mines are far away FROM EACH OTHER, so that if you flag a mine on one side it will take necessarily some time to flag the other. On those maps, by the way, the Logistics races like Inferno and Stronghold have an advantage.
And there are the maps that have heavy guardians (not to mention those that have both). Heavy guardians on HEROIC means you have to PLAN a way how to beat those guardians (without losing the bulk of your force) WITH LIMITED MEANS.
Now, the Market helps ONLY if you are missing one or two resources for a CRITICAL build. A critical build is a build that allows a drastic increase in your ability to kill neutrals. With Academy there simply are not so many critical builds, not in terms of creatures, at least.
In terms of MAGIC you need not only the builds to get the right spells, you need the skill(s) as well - and to get the skills you need experience which you get by killing.
That means, it doesn't make much sense to waste your resources away for a few Ore or other things THAT DON'T HELP YOU IN THE SHORT RUN AS WELL except for a very few occasions. It makes much more sense to use resources to equip your forces with an arti that helps you take a mine thatn to waste them on the Market for a useless build that gives you a false sense of having accomplished something or having not fallen behind too much in the arms race.
The bottom line is, you have to make use of your means in the best way possible, so if you barter on the market you must gain significantly, otherwise it makes no sense.
Which brings us to the 4 Ore finds.
If I hadn't got ORE, I'd got something else and built DIFFERENTLY. Note that I crept ONLY and SOLELY with my upgraded level 1 and UNUPGRADED Gargoyles! No spells were used BESIDE the one Nur has from the start. So the game was EASY - as I said, I did nothing out of the ordinary AND got everything built in 4 weeks.
The main thing is, if I had had LESS ore, I'd have been FORCED to go underground EARLIER, which means I'd have been FORCED to make use of those then even more readily available and UNUSABLE FOR BUILDS precious reources.
Which means I would have employed those mini-artifacts in Week 2. Early in week 2.
I mean, if you barter resources for Ore you may have one build but after that you are missing the precious resources for the next build even IF you find ore. Makes no sense.

Elodin

10-02-2007, 12:34 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
This is your main error. The Marketplace can't solve your problem on a resource poor map.
.............
I mean, if you barter resources for Ore you may have one build but after that you are missing the precious resources for the next build even IF you find ore. Makes no sense. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, no error on my part.

When I played map I did not find enough ore by end of day5 to build mage guild level 1 which is required for town hall. So I was forced to trade 10 wood for 1 ore. You said you found ore 4 times in first 8 days. OK, but that is not typical. If you had not you would have had to trade if possible.

Everything Nival does is not perfect. I am sure Ubi will not get too mad if you don't defend every little detail and say everything is absolutely perfect.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-02-2007, 12:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
1) Here is what I said as if you care to accruately know.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">If you read my posts you see I said a level 1 miniartifact in month one may be possible, but is hard to make significat use of artificer for a while. Of course their are lot of variables that can change things on a map.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, where's Number 2? :O) Just kidding.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">3) Significant use. Sure you can make and break artifact to say, yes, I used it. But did it make impact? No. And main heroe can't spend time running back and forth to castle to make artifacts especially when town is not in central location. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and no to this. Yes, it DID make a significant impact. At least on my game it did. It doesn't look like it did too much on JJ's because he stopped shortly after getting them. But it certainly could've made a good impact. The no portion would be to the hero running back and forth to town. Up to a certain point, all mini-artis are the same regardless of the hero & stats. So you can have a scout or even a newly hired hero build artifacts in town and add them to a troop. The main hero can then use summon creature to bring that artifact to him without traipsing all the way back to town. Now if the new system works like I "hope" it will, once that troop/arti reaches the main hero it will get buffed up to the main hero's stat-level. Hopefully. If not, well, I'll deal with it then. But you've also got Town Portal as an option too (somewhat) and of course the cheesy route that JJ mentioned with retreating and rehiring.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">4) Also, if wizard has only level 1 mage guild for a month he is dead when facing human. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is absolutely correct. And I highly suggest to all Academy players to get your guild to level 3 within the first month at the VERY latest. Including the Library. Doing this will greatly affect your decisions in skill choices. The sooner the better. However, this doesn't mean that you should RUSH to the upper level guilds for the MMR strategy. You could. It IS effective. But it's certainly not required. Level 3 is more than enough for a LONG while. You'll need those resources to build with. You don't want to fall behind the opposition in terms of town development. And 5 levels of a guild won't help you if you don't have an expert school and the RIGHT school. So wait a bit on it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">5) In large maps you can't just trapse back all the way across map to make artifact or you lose. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

True and false...depending upon how they change artificer as I noted above.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">6) Certain players tend to get lots of ore piles every game and Havez in week 1 or 2 every game, and luck hero in first week almost every game, ect. How is that possible? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's not. And we don't. You've got only 8 Wizards in the whole game (not counting campaigns). You'll start the game with one, you're nearly always going to get one in the tavern on day 1 and sometimes 2. Same thing with week 2. That's a pretty high percentage for the odds of getting Galib or Havez (or Nur/Jhora/Nathir). As for loose ore laying around. Most maps have at least one (quite often 2) stacks next to the ore mine. After that, campfires have a high percentage for ore/wood. Other than that, it's just a roll of the dice. But getting that ore mine early is pretty darned important. That's the biggest reason that JJ struggled a bit in his map. Day 12 is VERY late for getting your first ore pit. Oh well.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">7) To be quite honest, you can't compare play between different versions of game, especially version that isn't even released yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't really comment on that because I haven't played it yet. However, it seems like he avoided any beneficial bonuses and had to deal with numerous new upgraded units. Taking sabateurs may have been an advantage though...not sure totally.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">8) I have learned that certain people are creative writers. You can read all HOMM boards and that is pretty much standard opinion.

Why is it that all other players except company associated realize a problem with artifact system?

I guess you think the new ultimate path for wizard is just wonderful and fair too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Company associated? *rolls eyes* Creative writers? *eyes roll so far they pop out of my head* Are you serious with this? Are you suggesting that I just wrote that up without actually DOING any of that? What in the heck do you want for me to prove my point. Do I have to get in a freakin' plane and fly to your house, sit down at your computer and teach you like a little kid? You're more mature than that. Please don't assume that I'm not. I have never once spouted "company lines" on any board. Please, don't assume too much. Could the artificer system use some tweeks? Sure, all the systems "could". But does it REQUIRE adjustments? No, I don't think it does. It's difficult as it is, and that's how I prefer it. Difficult.

As for the new path to the Ultimate skill....I couldn't care less. I'm not going to go for it regardless. It's not that good of a skill that I'd be willing to forgo many other MORE USEFUL ones. And that's not just for the wizard, but for all factions.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-02-2007, 01:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
Everything Nival does is not perfect. I am sure Ubi will not get too mad if you don't defend every little detail and say everything is absolutely perfect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please, oh please...I beg you to find where EITHER of us have said anything even remotely close to THAT statement.

There are numerous things wrong with the game. I'm not ignorant. However, in the big scheme of things...I personally find the game FUN and ADDICTIVE. For me, that's a good game. So while I "could" sit here and gripe and moan about certain things not being perfect, I don't. I instead try to remain positive and focus on the GOOD aspects of the game instead of the clunky user interface, or the lack of a kingdom overview, or the lack of a wait button, or the lack of many of my favorite units, or the lack of hitpoints on my genie, or the fact that they're calling my genie a freakin' Djinn, or the fact that the 3d camera makes the game move at a snails pace, or the fact that the game was delayed numerous times and they still leave in blatant spelling errors, or the fact that it's now the 2nd expansion and they're finally getting around to making the garden of the wee folk give out gems too, or the fact that they even call it a garden of the wee folk. See, that's pretty non-productive and monotonous...don't 'cha think? Company line my @ss.

Jolly-Joker

10-02-2007, 02:24 PM

I'm closing my case with a report on War of the Worlds. And, Chuck, I didn't STRUGGLE exactly in Subterranian treasures - look at where I stand on day 28. I had a couple of days where I had to play exactly and while I can't prove this I feel that my decisions which stacks NOT to attack were pretty correct. For example I didn't free the hero from his prison because it was guarded by Hunters; a horde of them actually. You have to make sure you don't fight uselessly for too many losses.
Anyway, WAR of the Worlds. I think, I played this one well, as short as it took me... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Make sure you read day 8 - it's the key here.

WAR OF THE WORLDS

I pick Orange, but this time I make sure that each town is in play once and only once. I leave the rest at random.
I fire things up and get Havez. Restart. Havez. Restart. Narxes. Random bonus 3 meagre Gems. Town bonus: Golems.
DAY 1: I build the Tavern. Nur and Galib. I'm going to hire Nur, but leave Galib in (!), so that it will be Nur and Narxes. Suffering yet again, just to prove a point. Nur again. So be it.
Narxes moves out and picks up a campfire with 5 Merc! Very auspicious beginning. Moreover Ore Pit is guarded by Imps and Sawmill by Skeletons. Narxes stops at the junction to the Sawmill. Nur beats lots of Imps without losses, flags Pit, picks up two piles with 11 Ore all in all, hands troops to Narxes who beats Lots of Skeletons without losses, flags Sawmill and picks up 1 pile of 6 Wood.

DAY 2: Build Market. Just kidding. Build Gremlins, of course. Narxes brings troops back to Nur. Nur proceeds to squash pack of Horned Overseers at the Dolmen. I check difficulty again. Yup, below 10000 gold, must be Heroic. Nur levels; +1 Power, but no MotW. I take Advanced Sorcery instead of Basic Dark Magic or any of the other 2 Artificer abilities that are on offer.
Narxes moves further north, picks up a pile of gold and locates another campfire where he heads to.
Nur picks up a pile of gold at the Dolmen and moves west into the direction of an unguarded Sulfur pile and another junction.

DAY 3:. Narxes proceeds further north, picks up a campfire for 6 Wood and moves further along the only direction not barred by stacks.
Nur proceeds to pick up 4 Sulfur. Behind that is the Dune guarded by lots of Master Hunters which is not that good.
She has to make a decision now. She can reach town next turn and pick up Gremlins – upgraded ones, mind you – and start clearing things. Or she can go exploring further: there's still one road open to her, leading west, with a pile of Merc looming there. I check my builds. I'd like to go for Golems, especially because of the town special. For Mages I'd need 2 more Gems which wll roll in because Narxes has located a pile further north. But I don't see any Sulfur. So my builds will be Mage Guild, Gremlin upgrade, Blacksmith, Town Hall, Golems. I may skip Town Hall for Gargs, but that's not yet a pressing question. Since my builds are secure I don't see any reason NOT to start clearing the vicinity until day 8, so Nur heads back to town.
Since I don't need any further spells for Nur, I decide for the building order Blacksmith, Gremlin upgrade MG 1, to allow Nur to pick up an Ammo Cart instead of spells she won't use anyway at this stage.

DAY 4: Narxes picks up 2 Gems and flags the Den of Thieves; not much to be seen, yet. I'm leading in Heroes and Towns, though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. Narxes reaches the end of his way here due to lots of Pit Lords on the road, but he locates a Crystal Cavern, probably reachable via a pack of Poltergeists – the Cavern itself is guarded by a pack of Battle Mages. Come to think of it, actually a tough decision at this point between the Dune and the Cavern.
He returns and heads into the direction of the yet to be picked up Merc pile on the only road not blocked.
For a moment I consider NOT upgrading the Grems. I check the stacks yet again in the vicinity. A pack of skelly archers, lots of skelly archers, a horde of Horned Demons.
I grade up and yet again pick Saboteurs. This time, though, I may regrade them to Master later, but that will depend on the availability of spells. Stone Spikes in the Guild would be an interesting spell for Magnet Golems, but we'll see about that.
I hire, buy a Cart and grade up. Force is 78 Saboteurs, 17 Gargoyles, 1 Mage. Nur does the skelly archers. They don't want to fight, but I won't have their cowardly attitude. I beat them without losses. Nur opens a Chest for 1000 Gold.

DAY 5: Narxes follows the road south up to the junction with the road west.
Nur picks up a pile of gold then heads west, picks up a lone chest along the way for yet another meagre 1000 gold and stops in front of the Demon horde.
I build MG 1. Divine Strength, Fire Trap, Weakness. So much for Stone Spikes. The start was auspicious, but I've got a feeling things are bogging down now.

DAY 6: Narxes goes west, picks up 2 Merc - bog bog bog - and stands before a Garrison with undead in it, several Vampires among them. He heads back. He has a Dolmen to visit. Nur won't have problems with that garrison later, though.
For the time being she beats the Demons blocking he street without losses. She levels up for 1 Knowledge and MotW and proceeds to beat lots of Skelly Archers guarding a cache, yet again without losses. Yet again she opens a chest for 1000 gold – this becoming a habit now – and picks up a pile with 4 Gems.
I skip Gargoyles and build Town Hall.

DAY 7: Narxes levels up at the Dolmen for MotW and proceeds into the direction of town. I build the Golem Forge.
Nur moves further to a lane leading southwest and picks up a chest. 1000 Gold. It's starting to become annoying and I'm certainly in the mood for a little bloodbath. She follows the road ahead stepwise and sees lots of Orcish Warmongers. Eagerly, Nur moves ahead and grounds them into the dust for no losses to stop short of a cache with the armor of valor among it - but no resource piles except gold.
I can't help noticing that I ˜d have had more options with Galib – for example building the Mage Tower, not to mention the fact that I'd have had a lot more money now.
When it is Lightblue's turn, Talanar stops short of his side of the Garrison. Uh oh. Nur is level 3 only. I'm pretty eager to see what day 8 will bring.

DAY 8: Week of Alchemy (Merc and Sulfur income doubled). Silently I curse that first campfire pick. Auspicious beginning? My ***.
I'm not going to let me impress by Talanar. He has lots of Sprites, a pack of Wind Dancers and several Hunters. I check him. He comes with a Ballista. A pity you can't conquer that from heroes like artifacts.
Nur proceeds to pick up the Armor of Valor, 2 piles of gold and a Chest, this time, I don't believe my eyes, for 1000 exp. Nur levels for +1 attack and a choice between Basic Luck, Expert Sorcery and two Sorcery based abilities. Exp Sorcery WILL help me. I check the revised skill wheel. Soldier's Luck (completely useless) will make Warlock's Luck available (cool). However, for that one I'll need Magic Insight as well. So Warlock's Luck is FOUR level-ups away, one of which will be completely useless and another one will require two more builds and luck in the spell selection.
Another possible way is Resourcefulness followed by Spoils of War plus Resistance as a 3rd Luck based ability. No further prerequisites on these.
I like that, so I do pick basic Luck. I can visit an observation platform, do so and see the Lightblue town and realm in all its glory. It definitely looks like the world isn't big enough for both Orange and Lightblue. Apart from the fact that Lightblue didn't do much - probably nothing at all, the way things look. Talanar can't have many levels, come to think of it.
The building situation calls for an analysis. What I see is a Gem mine and a Sawmill on Lightblue's turf – there will probably an Ore pit as well which I can't see. I need to be able to beat Lightblue fast – this (2nd) week, if at all possible.
My resources are 21 15 7 5 9 9. Until the end of the week this will add to 33 Wood and 27 Ore. This will allow the following builds: Market, Town Hall, Arcane Forge, Gargoyles, Guild Level 2, Gargoyle Upgrade, Golem Upgrade. It would even allow Mages, if I could get THREE Sulfur (not 1 due to the other buildings). The trouble is, there is NO Sulfur visible at all on the map part I can see - except the Dune, which, I make sure to check, is still guarded by lots of Master Hunters. I'd be satisfied with those builds if I could lay the foundation for some more builds in week 3.
One thing is clear: I CAN use arties except those needing Crystal. Sulfur is needed for the Golem upgrade which is the only one that is mutually exclusive with builds.
However, at this Knowledge level the Init artifact isn't worth much.
I take a look into the Tavern. Holy ****! Havez (of course) AND Nathir, this last one with 24 Grems and 10 Gargs, Havez with 67 Grems. I have 9000 gold and HAVE to hire ONE hero. BOTH heroes are useful. Havez has the sheer numbers going for him with the Ballista as a bonus. Nathir has Fireball, a pretty useful spell, especially in combination with Magnet Golems and a speed artifact... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Again it looks like I'm thwarted. Conditions look too good. This is getting ridiculous.
I'm going to take Nathir, but won't use any Magnet Golems with him.
I hire Nathir, build the Marketplace, grade his Grems up, hire the 20 Grems and move out. I give the troops to Narxes who moves to a position between Nur and Nathir while Nathir visits the Dolmen for + Knowledge and Magic Mirror.
When it's Lightblue's turn, Talanar breaks through and comes to stand a couple of steps short of both Nathir and Narxes. Well done, Ranger.

DAY 9: I check Talanar. Sprites are down to pack. Nur can't reach him, but Narxes and Nathir can. I'll leave that to Nathir. Nur transfers everything to Narxes and keeps a Garg. Narxes transfers everything to Nathir and keeps a GREM. I take extra care to make sure that Narxes can reach town after that. He can and ends his turn in town where I build the City Hall.
Nathir attacks Talanar. He's level 1 and has 16 Sprites, 12 Wind Dancers and 6 Hunters. Still I lose 9 Saboteurs, 5 Gargs and the sole Mage due to the plethora of moves his troops and his Ballista get.
Nathir levels for +1 Power and basic Light Magic. After all, I know now where to get both Light and Destructive spells which is where I head with him, while Nur uses her last few MPs to follow as well.

DAY 10: I build – the Arcane Forge, what else? Narxes is forging a Health artifact for 5 W and 5 G, pathetic for 1 HP, but it increases the Health of my main troops for 1/6. He switches troops with Nur who switches the Gremlin to Nathir. Voila. Nathir hits the Tattered Flag for +1 in Luck and Moral and moves straight to the Sylvan town. Next turn he will attack. Everyone else is following to plunder Lightblue's lands.

DAY 11: Without much ado Nathir attacks. He faces a level 1 Anwen with 24 Sprites, 15 War Dancers, 8 Hunters and 3 Unicorns without any town defense and massacres him, losing 13 Grems and 10 Gargs in the process, levelling up for Adv. Light and +1 Power. Lightblue is defeated...

I consider this case closed.

Kranyum

10-02-2007, 02:53 PM

This is the most interesting thread I've seen in a long time on heroes forums.

Keep it up guys.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-02-2007, 03:50 PM

Nicely played JJ. I must say, it's even more frustrating when you have to purposefully cripple yourself. No Galib, No Havez. Why should we have to NOT pick them when anybody else easily could? Put this game on HARD or NORMAL and allow yourself to pick either Galib or Havez....THEN how's that map play out? Yes, Artificer is most definitely USABLE in the early stages of the game. On heroic it's more restricted (as expected) but still a viable option. Yes, case closed.

By the way...."DAY 2: Build Market." cracked me up.

If you notice any specific changes to Artificer (and the passing of arti's from one hero to another) please, let me know.

And yes, I know you didn't "struggle" per say, but rather that the lateness of the ore pit dictated rather HEAVILY what you could and couldn't do. That's VERY rarely the case. Easily 90% of the maps out there have ore & wood within the first day's march from your starting town. That map is an exception rather than the standard.

PhoenixReborn06

10-02-2007, 08:32 PM

That's what the heroic A.I. does, level 1 heroes?

How come when I play on hard level 15 heroes come after me quickly.

Oakwarrior

10-03-2007, 06:28 AM

Reading through all this is murder! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think I might try this out myself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
And uh, why no Havez/Galib? As Chucky here said, anyone else can easily pick them.

Jolly-Joker

10-03-2007, 06:47 AM

The point made was that it should be possible with ALL heroes, not with a specific combination - you wouldn't want the other racial spells to work with certain heroes only.
*shrug* I agree with that, so I played with them.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-03-2007, 10:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhoenixReborn06:
That's what the heroic A.I. does, level 1 heroes?

How come when I play on hard level 15 heroes come after me quickly. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was week one. Give it a bit of time and yes, the AI plays better than on hard. So Talanar not being higher was a bit of a surprise I'd think, the other hero was a previous day hire for town defense I'd assume. It was JJ's game so you'd have to ask him to verify it.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-03-2007, 10:33 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Oakwarrior:
Reading through all this is murder! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think I might try this out myself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
And uh, why no Havez/Galib? As Chucky here said, anyone else can easily pick them. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, we weren't using them because Elodin thought it was our way of leveraging things to our advantage. If I used Havez & Galib then using Artificer is VERY easy and VERY accesible MUCH earlier. So everytime I'd give an example, he'd come back and say..."sure, with Havez's war machines exploit" (not verbatim...just the perception). So to prove the point, we took them out of the equation and still succeeded. Allowing them makes it even more usable....as does playing on a difficulty lower than heroic.

Pitsu

10-03-2007, 11:02 PM

During the betas there was a mini-arty for damage boost. With +1 or +2 to damage you could easily double the damage of low levels. That is roughly the power of sylvans ultimate natures luck and consequently was removed from the game as overpowered (though only gremlins and gargs could truely benefit from it). Anyway, at this time the damage miniarty was of high importance and one could happily delay a building in order to get it. Since gremlins are your main damage dealers it was a dilemma whether to boost first their damage with arty or upgrade for initiative. Currently gremlin upgrade costs 5ore+ 1500 gold + some per creature. Miniarties are same cost or more expensive than that, but gain from them is clearly inferior to upgrade. You can delay buildings and upgrade that are not as important (e.g. gargs) and further boost you main grem/golem stacks. As Chuckles demonstrated it can be done without hurting yourself and perhaps even gaining from it. I would say the early miniarties are "useful luxury". It is nice to have them if your finances allow, but you cannot really base a strategy on them or change strategy depending on what you can build. Their strategic value comes later, when you can afford them easily and you face hero lead armies not neutrals. The situation would be wastly different if tent-gremlin-golem combo would be less efficient per se. If the low levels would be with lower survivability or the arties would be the source of some abilities (e.g. repair) the player would value early miniarties much more.
In conclusion, I think that artificier idea is not using its full potential. On the other hand, Academy is not the only town with this problem.

Kranyum

10-04-2007, 04:39 AM

I have an idea. Why don't we all play the same map, starting from the same point with academy (i.e. we make a savegame on day 1 which everyone continues upon) and see the actual differences between a play which uses microartis and another which doesn't

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-04-2007, 04:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kranyum:
I have an idea. Why don't we all play the same map, starting from the same point with academy (i.e. we make a savegame on day 1 which everyone continues upon) and see the actual differences between a play which uses microartis and another which doesn't </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've actually done that numerous times. Thats how I can more clearly tell that it's effective or not.

Jolly-Joker

10-04-2007, 05:15 AM

No problem.
I'll post another Subterranian Treasures report later this day, though. It will be interesting.

Kranyum

10-04-2007, 05:30 AM

You should post a savegame file too

Oh and i have an off topic short question for you academy experts: can you have 2 puppet mastered units at the same time: via mark of the wizard that is.

I am asking because I tried it and it only game me control of only one single unit.

Dreed89

10-04-2007, 05:38 AM

I have a question about this artificiers.For example if we add any boost to our 100 Gremlins,when we sepereta them 33,33,34(example)only one stack has that artificier ability.Why?

Jolly-Joker

10-04-2007, 05:42 AM

I think there can be only one puppetmastered unit on any battlefield.
Too late for a saved game file this time.
Someone with a fansite could post a file there.

Elodin

10-04-2007, 06:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dreed89:
I have a question about this artificiers.For example if we add any boost to our 100 Gremlins,when we sepereta them 33,33,34(example)only one stack has that artificier ability.Why? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because the miniartifact does not get broken into pieces. Only one stacak has the miniartifact.

And yes, each heroe can control only one pupetmastered stack. That was changed in one of the patches.

Vempula

10-04-2007, 07:48 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dreed89:
I have a question about this artificiers.For example if we add any boost to our 100 Gremlins,when we sepereta them 33,33,34(example)only one stack has that artificier ability.Why? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because the miniartifact does not get broken into pieces. Only one stacak has the miniartifact. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It could be argued that this is illogical. How can a stack wear an artifact? It should be that every single one of them has that artifact.

But by making Artificer work like that would need drastic changes to the whole Artificer skill.

Now the artifact is paid for once and only one stack can use it at any given time. It works just fine.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-04-2007, 12:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Vempula:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dreed89:
I have a question about this artificiers.For example if we add any boost to our 100 Gremlins,when we sepereta them 33,33,34(example)only one stack has that artificier ability.Why? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because the miniartifact does not get broken into pieces. Only one stacak has the miniartifact. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It could be argued that this is illogical. How can a stack wear an artifact? It should be that every single one of them has that artifact.

But by making Artificer work like that would need drastic changes to the whole Artificer skill.

Now the artifact is paid for once and only one stack can use it at any given time. It works just fine. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see what you're saying. And yes, it is illogical. But then again, so is the concept of stacks, right? There could be a way to fix it though. If instead of physically putting the artifact on the unit you could have a hero tab (like for skills or the bio) that has the 7 town units and then you can mix and match one artifact for that particular type of unit. Then, no matter how you split them, that TYPE of unit would get that linked artifact bonus. But I honestly don't see Nival doing that. But it would make sence.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-04-2007, 12:25 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
No problem.
I'll post another Subterranian Treasures report later this day, though. It will be interesting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

So, do we want to do this? Start a map, and post a day one savegame and let people play with it? It would allow for several playing styles to be displayed upon the same circumstances. I'm game if you guys are. I'll even host the save game if you want.

Just let me know.

Jolly-Joker

10-04-2007, 01:13 PM

Okay, I gave Underground treasures another try. I think, that it's an exciting report. Even though I'm not going into detail about battle tactics I think I played pretty well throughout the game. Some people will enjoy this, I'm sure, and keep in mind that this is HEROIC - you have to do something on maps like this when you play heroic.
Here we go.

SUBTERRANIAN TREASURES #2
I start with green, pick the other Towns Haven, Inferno and Dungeon and leave everything else at random.

DAY 1: Razzak, and when I build the Tavern Havez. Restart. Narxes, but Nur and Galib in the Tavern. Can't stand it. Restart. Galib and Nur. Restart. Havez. Restart. Faiz and Narxes. Okay. I get the Elementl Waistband as bonus and the Town bonus is Mercury (which will give me, like, 2 Merc at the start of each week). I send Faiz out a bit, but leave Narxes in the Tavern.

DAY 2: Build Gremlins and hire. Narxes hands Faiz troops who visits Tattered Flag and fights lots of Vermin without losses to unguard two chests that he leaves. He visits Tattered Flag again and makes for a pile of ore in the west. Narxes stops short of a campfire.

DAY 3: Narxes picks up 5 Sulfur and moves further southwest to another campfire.
Faiz picks up 5 ore beats lots of Pixies guarding the Sawmill, losing a Mage, a Golem and a Gargoyle, flags the Sawmill, visits an unguarded(!; compare with blue) WM factory and buys a complete set, picks up a pile of gold and moves to an unguarded Marletto Tower.
I build MG 1: Divine Strength, Fist of Wrath, Stone Spikes.

DAY 4: Narxes hits a Campfire for 4 ore and a pile of 2 Gems and visits a Power-buffer.
And now it's decision time. 9 ore is enough for the Arcane Forge (which I won't e able to use due to missing resources) as a possible build and the Gremlin upgrade or the Gargoyles. I will need the Gremlin upgrade if I want to go anywhere, though. I decide to return Faiz to town immediately to pick up spells and grade up Grems, forgoing the Marletto for the time being, but visiting the Tattered Flag yet again and stopping to pick up the chests I left initially. The first brings 1000 gold and ends my movement.
I build the Gremlin upgrade.

DAY 5: Narxes moves further, picks up a pile with 2 Sulfur and locates a Gargoyle dwelling and the underground portal which is guarded b a horde of Rot Zombies.
Faiz picks up the second chest – 1000 Gold, what else – and stops his movement a square short of town.
I build the Arcane Forge.
DAY 6: Narxes flags the Gargs without buying and picks up two chests for 3500 gold.
I consider a Health arti for the Grems. I COULD forge it, but I don't have to face any shooters at this point, and each turn may find Wood which would allow me to proceed smoothly to City Hall, so I decide against the arti.
I build the Town Hall and grade the Gremlins up to Saboteur. Then I move out and beat the throng of militia that is guarding the Dolmen and the Spell Shrine, losing 4 Gargs. I gain 1 Knowledge and MotW for my efforts.

DAY 7: Faiz learns Eldritch Arrow and levels at the Dolmen for 1 Knowledge and an unsatisfying pick between adv. Artificer and basic Light Magic. Light Magic won't help me at this point because I have only one fighting stack that won't profit much from Divine Strength, single or mass spell. Adv. Artificer won't help me much either, but it does at least not give me something new to clutter my options, so I pick that.
Come to think of it NOW, with Knowledge at 5 and the forced adv. Artificer I would just LOVE to equip the Gemlins with an artifact. Consume Artifact will be on offer on my next level-up and with TWO more HPs for the Grems and a chance to Resurrect some of them I could take a tough level 2 shooter like Marksmen in the underground which are bound to come up there at the mines.
On the other hand the missing wood will cost me 2 days of building the City Hall and one day marching time to the underground. I can stop short of the Zombies guarding the Arena, hire whatever hero will be there next turn and be off.
I feel that this is a very close decision. The health Artifact will help me ONLY against shooters, but there are lots of low level shooters. 15 shooters out of 48 creatures of level 1 and 2, but from those 15 9 are from level 2. I'm probably bound to meet one underground, and the 6 level 2 shooter upgrades are all pretty effective.
This is cracking me up. What would I do in an MP game where I can't think so long? Hmm, the Thieves Den is guarded by Horned Grunts which is bad, but there is a pile of wood and a campfire. I will have to hire some Gargs from the outside dwellings eventually anyway...
After all, I want to prove something. Another factor is, if Havez comes up in the town for an additional contingent of Grems I can't make use of him. Probably this makes up my mind.
I decide to go for the arti and to hell with it!
No build!

DAY 8: Week of Firework. Yet again, I find Havez in the Tavern. I take 50 of his Gremlins and grade them up (to make up for the missing Gargoyles, leave him a stack of 27 and leave my 20 regular Gremlins unhired). That means, I have the Gremlins as if hired a hero like Nur and less Gargoyles, but payed 400 less gold for my Grems.
I forge my arti for the Grems and move out. Faiz beats a horde of Plague Zombies without losses and gain 1 Power and Consume Artificer. Again I got Light offered.
Narxes picks up 3 Crystals and moves back. The yet again abused Havez moves to the Dolmen and picks basic Sorcery just out of spite.
No build.

DAY 9: Faiz picks 2 attack at the Arena, moves to the Tattered Flag and to the Marletto Tower. Havez follows in his wake. Narxes goes back and makes sure to visit all buffers on the way.
I build the Marketplace.

DAY 10: I beat a Horde of Horned Grunts losing 2 Gargs and gain 1 Knowledge and Advanced Dark Magic. The alternative basic Summoning wasn't appealing. Havez picks up 6 Wood allowing me to build the Blacksmith.
Faiz moves on to the Windmill for 3 Sulfur, bringing the total to 14 now, fights a horde of Demons without losses and picks up a chest, allowing himself the luxury of 1500 exp for levelling up 1 Knowledge and Burning Soil. Dark Magic is out now because I'll leave the last ability for any possible Master of depending on spells, so the next level–ups will be very critical.
Narxes waits at the Gargoyle dwelling.

DAY 11: Havez flags the Den and I don't see ANY green in it, even though my hero ain't so bad in comparison. Havez picks up a chest for 2000 gold, a campfire for 5 Crystals, another pile of 3 Crystals and a pile of gold. Hmm.
Faiz moves to the power buffer, attacks the Rogues at the Stables and leans back while Burning Soil does a lot of work. A pity shooters don't move, though. He visits the Stables. He hits a horde of Blackbear Riders, loses 8 Gargs and the single Golem and levels for 1 Knowledge and Basic War Machines. In this fight I actually allow myself a reload: when it was Faiz' first turn he took the chance actually to be able and cast area Vulnerability on all 3 Bear stacks – but I forgot the Armored ability of them which makes the spell ineffective http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. I reload and do the MotW shuffle with Eldritch Arrow instead.
Faiz leaves the Everfull sack of Gold and all that to Havez for next turn: he is in a hurry now.
I build the City Hall.

DAY 12: Faiz visits the Magic well and hits the Zombies, after Narxes has restocked his Gargs, without losses, levelling again for 1 Knowledge and the Ballista ability. Narxes overtakes troops from him, hits the underground beats a horde of Goblin Trappers effortless, flags the Ore Pit and liberates 2 piles with a meagre 8 ore all in all. Faiz visits the Knowledge buffer.
Havez frees Ellaine who picks up a campfire with 4 Mercuy, visits the Stables and moves into the direction of the underground, while Havez picks up the sack (1000 Gold daily) and moves into the direction of home.
I'm a bit concerned about the building situation. I have still only ONE creature dwelling, but I still have 3 builds this week. I will have 15 Ore at the end of the week. The Mage Tower would cost 10 Ore which would reduce my building capacity to 2, not to mention the fact that I'm missing GEMs now (and my arti decision looks like it may backfire on me). I WILL be able to build Djinn next turn, when I reach 10 Wood (so this one won't backfire), and I CAN build Gargoyles. For Golems I'm missing Merc when I build the Djinn AND Gems as well. If I still had those 5 Gems I would obviously build Mages and Djinn. Can it hurt to build Gargoyles now? Yes, indeed. If I indeed hit Gems on day 14 I'll be better off, if I wait – I can then still build Djinns next turn and Mages on day 14. Do I have a chance to flag both Merc and Gems? None, I'd say.
So the best plan is actually now to wait this turn, build Djinn in the next and then either Mages or Gargoyles on day 14.
No build.

Day 13: In the underground I check the situation. The entry point is west from the middle of the map, so for all I know in the western corner there will be a single mine. The tunnel leading east will split after a short time into one leading north with another mine at the end of it reachable from the west tunnel as well. Lastly the tunnel leading east will lead to two further mines which would be Sulfur and Mercury if the layout is the same way as with blue which I played two days ago and remember. In reality I haven't got much of a choice due to the length of tunnels. I'll simply march Faiz into the west tunnel which will very probably enable me to flag one of two mines on day 14 (and pick up resource piles). The way east will be too long, I'm sure of that, and going west will give me not only a 50% chance, but a 100% chance in case the mine layout is equal for all four of the undergrounds.
I switch army back to Faiz and march west, while I send Narxes to the east and then into the tunnel leading north. Wenn the heroes stop they have located exactly nothing, not even a glimpse of something. My heart sinks.
Actually I don't need Ellaine in the underground – maybe I can take the 2nd town with fresh forces and her help. I send her back into the direction of my town while Havez moves forth, both on the buff-tour.
I build Djinn.

DAY 14: I move Ellaine, and when I move Havez I realize I have overlooked a pile, a pile of gold as it is, but it could have been a resource pile – Gems, for example, and then I wouldn't have reached it in time.
I switch to the underground and move Narxes first. At the end of his turn he locates – but can't reach: the Witch Hut. Great. Still no mine. Faiz is my only chance now. I move him slowly a couple of steps and there it is, the Gem mine, guarded by a Horde of Spear Wielders. I take it and lose 2 Gremlins, pick up two piles with 6 Gems all in all, flag the mine and move to the Witch Hut.
My thoughts about the layout of the underground were not fully correct, it seems, but at least my thinking was right in so far as I took the way into the direction with the highest probability for reaching a mine at all. That it's Gems was plain luck. Or maybe not luck. Layout is layout. Let's say it was lucky timing. On the other hand I got unlucky heroes and certainly not much ore. Thinking a bit more on it, even if I had known the locations beforehand I couldn't have reached any other mine timely, so indeed it WAS luck. At least I didn't throw it away.
Still, I realize that all of this is somehow forced. Knowing beforehand that getting a very good hero like Havez in week 2 woud be of no use, going for the arti got a better option than it looks to have been at this point. Anyway.
I build the Mage Tower.

DAY 15: Week of calm (evil factions have 20% less imitiative) which is good. Town gives 2 Merc.
I beat the horde of Zombies at the Witch Hut for +1 Defense and Exp Artificer. Narxes finds out that the Witch teaches War Machines. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Faiz takes a peak as well and both move east locating the Crystal Cavern.
Ellaine reaches town. I build the Genie Horde.
Havez picks up the gold pile and moves into the direction of the Stables.

DAY 16: Crystal Cavern is guarded by a horde of Crossbowmen! I attack. When it's the Crossbowmen single stack's turn 44 are actually still left and fire their one and only shot, they do an appaling 207 points of damage, killing 25 of my 8 health Grems. With only 6 health I'd have lost 34 leaving 87 and that would have been that. Now I can Consume the artifact and since I'm level 9 I'll gain 23 of them back Significant? Yes. Shipping the arti home would take a very long time – I probably won't need the resources anymore then. If I want to use the abilities of my Wizard at all, now is the time – after all that's exactly the situation I was preparing for. So I bring them back.
I lose 2 Grems, a Garg - and the artie.
Narxes does the flagging and picking. 6 Crystal. Faiz moves on.
Ellaine hires 20 Saboteurs and 10 Mages and moves out, direction Havez.
I skip a build, hopefully for the last time now.

DAY 17: Everybody moves. I build the Golem Forge.

DAY 18: Faiz beats lots of Blood Furies guarding the Sulfur Dune without losses and levels up for one Knowledge and Swift Ballista.
Narxes doesn't make it to the flagging. He'll have to flag the just located Golem dwelling as well.
Faiz moves to the Lab.
I exchange 10 Crystal for 2 ore and build Gargoyles. This sets me up for the Capitol.
Havez overtakes troops from Ellaine who goes back to the Windmill.

DAY 19: I take the Lab beating a horde of Blade Dancers without losses. Both mines are flagged as well as the Golem Forge in the underground. I pick up an assortment of resources, but the mill does not offer ore.
Havez takes the other town and I build Market and Capitol.

DAY 20: I build the Library and the Tavern and get Sorrow as an extra spell. Havez moves to the Sawmill, Faiz and Narxes try to get out of the underground.

DAY 21: Faiz gets nearly to the underground portal while Havez takes the Sawmill.
I build the Gargoyle upgrade.
I'll be able to build and afford the artifact merchant in this game because I have so much money. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
For building ore is decisive – I have tons of money, Sulfur, Merc and Crystal and cash in 4 Wood each day as well. But not much ore. Playing this will be interesting: There IS another stack of ore on the map - in the cash at my town where the knowledge crystal is, but guarded by lots of Battle Mages which I obviously had no means to attack. Until when come home, because I will then equip Faiz' upgraded Djinn with a speed arti so they will be able to reach the Battle Mages in one turn. Since the cash is near my town I can destroy the artifact immediately.
I can play the next week, but I don't think it's necessary.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-04-2007, 01:22 PM

Okay, JJ...before you get TOO far....

Genie's Lamp news page (http://www.the-genies-lamp.com)

Here you'll find the link to the day 1 savegame for Subterranean Treasures. While I know you'll be very tempted to play more with TotE...if you want to participate in this equal-footing play-by-play, you'll have to go back to H.o.F. Sorry. (well, not really...*pouts that I can't play it now too*)

Jolly-Joker

10-04-2007, 01:35 PM

No, don't.
Take a normal 1.5 save because this is better and newer than 2.1.
Another advantage is everyone can play. No Dwarves, but still.
Answer quick please.

Jolly-Joker

10-04-2007, 01:51 PM

Err, Razzak with Havez? Is this a joke?

No matter how this will work out, I have a sports event tomorrow evening and my mother's birthday party on Saturday. I'll play the game on Sunday, as it is.
One month? OR how long?

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-04-2007, 02:24 PM

Actually, that's a good point about 1.5. I'll do that.

Concerning the starting heroes, I went random. I'm not going to cripple myself if everybody else can use the same heroes. I posted it before seeing what was in the tavern. *shrugs* If you insist, I can make sure that there's no Havez...but I'm not sure I see the point. His main argument about Havez was that "not everyone gets him everytime" (same with Galib). But it's up to you guys.

As for how long...1 month might be too limiting. As many players will get mini's in month one but you won't be able to tell the significance of them unless you're able to compare it to month 2 I think. 2 months should do it don't you think?

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-04-2007, 02:41 PM

So, should I restrict the starting hero + tavern or not? And who should I eliminate, if any?

~edit~ Okay, I went back and made it a 1.5 original game savegame. I also made sure that NEITHER Havez or Galib were the starting hero OR in the tavern on day 1. If they show up later on, feel free to grab them and use them (I personally think the restriction is a bit silly, but whatever). And unless someone suggests otherwise, I say we go for 2 months and see how it goes. Good luck.

Elodin

10-06-2007, 12:51 AM

Here is my progress at end of month 2.
http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/5770/subteraniantreasureseloqd3.png

I had to repelled superheroes of red and green before I was able to begin my conquest. With 4 academy towns in my grasp and Nur at level 20 with town portal all is well.

Nur: (Level 20)
Exp Sorcery--Mana Regeneration
Exp Attack--Battle Frenzy, Archery
Exp Summoning
Exp Dark--Master of Mind
Adv Enlightenment
Adv Artificer--(Mystic) MOTW, Magic Mirror

Attack: 14
Def: 8
Sp: 15
Kn: 23

Extreme ore shortage make mage guild levels difficult to build. I found necessary to trade a lot.

Kranyum

10-06-2007, 02:55 AM

you should maybe provide your savegame.

and talk about the miniarti usage too.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-06-2007, 09:21 AM

I haven't gone far at all, bit of a minor crisis here at the house. I wasn't aware that there was another Academy faction on that map...interesting.

And I'd have to agree with Kranyum, did you attempt to use artificer at all? And if so, when? It wasn't just the goal to win, but to force yourself to use artificer as early as possible. To show how much effect it had and whether it slowed/hindered your development or not.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-06-2007, 01:15 PM

Okay, I've gotten into week 4 and I'll post this update, but I think that'll be all for this map. You'll see why at the end.

--------------------------------------

Subterranean Treasures – from starting savegame pre-sets

Day 1: BUILD Tavern. I hire both Nur and Narxes and transfer all troops to Jhora leaving Nur with a Gargoyle and Narxes with his lone mage. Both the scouts hit the knowledge crystal before heading south. Jhora heads due south and takes out the lone easy kill, the conscripts guarding the war machines factory. The dancers & furies will cause too much damage at level 1, I'll come back for them later.

Day 2: BUILD Gremlin Workshop. Nur & Narxes will continue south hitting powerups and picking up loose resources and flagging any mines/dwellings they can get without combat. Jhora, meanwhile, takes out the horned demons with 3 garg losses and levels up for MotW. She then snags Fire Trap from the shrine and heads towards the Sawmill that Narxes uncovered.

Day 3: BUILD Marketplace. Nur heads back home for gremlin shuttle. Jhora flags the Sawmill for no losses.

Day 4: BUILD mage guild level 1 (haste, magic fist, weakness). Narxes discovers a chest, that might grant me enough gold for the silo, unless it's an artifact. Nur makes it to town and will sit for a bit until she can shuttle back out to Jhora. Jhora re-hits the morale/luck boosters and goes for the windmill. With only 11 mana, the familiars will be tough to beat. The battle with the dancers cost me 3 gargs and netted me advanced sorcery. With the wood find, I build the mage guild

Day 5: BUILD blacksmith. I need a cheap build so I can open up the path to the town hall. My gold situation needs to be addressed before the silo. Narxes gets the chest and finds the ice shield, which of course prompts me to do the blacksmith. Oh well. I'm not going to complain to much because the shield will certainly help me. Narxes flags & cleans out the gargoyle dwelling and heads north to bring them to Jhora. Jhora is down to 6 mana. And without a solid contingent of troops, I simply must have some more mana. So she heads for the magic well and the prison for the nice arti there.

Day 6: BUILD town hall. With only 1300 gold, I forgo the prison for day 6 and instead turn my attention to the thieves guild for the small gold cache there. I don't want to wait another day for the town hall. So after Narxes hands over her stuff, she heads further south and Jhora goes for the guilds hoard of overseer protectors. Wins with no losses, grabs the goods and builds the town hall.

Day 7: BUILD golem forge. While so far I haven't lost many gargs, that'll change soon. So I don't want to wait until week 2 to start producing golems. It does mean that I'll have to wait until week 2 for the silo...darn it. Jhora heads towards the planetarium and then the prison. But I did sneak a peek in the guild and see that Blue is also Academy (also a Dungeon & Sylvan faction too). Interesting. This may cause me to lean in blue's direction when it comes time to bust out of my area. Narxes continues to scout and grab goodies (including gold from another chest).

Day 8: (day 1 week 2: Week of life, double creature growth): BUILD nothing. Narxes finishes his southern scouting and returns back north hitting all powerups along the way. Jhora defeats the zombies with a lone gargoyle loss. Maeve is imprisoned there and with 3 stacks of troops, I'll let her have a shot at taking out the gargoyles holding the second academy to the south. I certainly don't see me using her for anything else of value so why not give her a shot at it. Jhora heads for the stables and then the underground. We've simply GOT to get some ore coming in. This is the lone reason I just don't care for this map. It completely stunts your town growth. Nur dashes out to get the windmill (prays for ore).

Day 9: BUILD nothing. Nur's prayers go unanswered...sulfur. Drat. Jhora, meanwhile, takes the stables (3 garg losses), hits the crystal of knowledge and heads for the stairs. I'd forgotten to mention that there was noone of consequence in the tavern...not that I wanted another hero anyway. 4 heroes in week 2 is a bit of overkill. However, I did notice that Red's (sylvan) best hero is Galib. The b@stards.

Day 10: BUILD nothing. I loathe not having ore. Maeve continues south towards the 2nd Academy. In a pleasant surprise she gets recruitment from a learning stone. Maybe she WILL have a use. *grin*. Nur heads back home and Narxes continues north hitting buffs. Jhora grabs the double-growth gargs from their home and clears out the Garden with 2 garg losses (I simply can't wait to play T.o.t.E. with Academy, if for no other reason than to hit the garden and to get gems finally). Magic Insight comes after clearing the garden. She now heads for the stairs. Only 3 mana left but I still only manage to lose 3 gargs to the hoard of zombies. Counterspell is my prize. *dashes underground*. Finally, an ore pit. Skeleton archer guards. Day 11, things will start rolling.

Day 11: BUILD resource silo. Jhora beats the skeli archers with 8 gremlin losses then heads back home. With gems and ore coming in I've got a window of opportunity to pump up my troops before going for the mines. My rare resource situation is pretty good right now. I've gotten a pretty good variety from all the loose stashes. Maeve meanwhile wins the battle for the second Academy town with only a handful of peasant losses. I don't see myself focusing too many resources on this town for a while yet, so Maeve heads to my first town to take advantage of recruitment. Narxes heads underground to scout & loot.

Day 12: BUILD nothing. BUILD gremlin workshop. Everybody continues on their previous paths.

Day 13: BUILD nothing. BUILD marketplace. Same ole' same ole'.

Day 14: BUILD altar of wishes. BUILD tavern. Jhora makes it home and spends the night. Maeve...darn, one day short. Well, she'll spend most of her time at my first town from now on while Nur & Narxes scout. Nur will head south from here and take over garrison duty at the second town.

Day 15: (day 1 week 3): BUILD nothing. BUILD nothing. Maeve moves into the garrison. Scouts continue scouting. I'm still short on the ore for the gremlin upgrade, but I don't want to sit around doing nothing for a day, so I'll risk it a bit and go for the furies. *crosses fingers* This ˜could' hurt a bit. Oh, wait, I forgot about Maeve's troops. Maybe it won't hurt as much as I thought. :O) Heads south for the 2 chests & learning stone the furies guard. Jhora takes Basic Summoning. I normally would hold off on that, but with a second Academy faction out there...it could be quite good. Only losses were Maeve's archers & footmen.

Day 16: BUILD gremlin manufactory. BUILD nothing. Narxes finds & flags a golem factory underground. I was originally planning on caravanning them back....oops. Original game, not H.o.F. :O) Okay, Narxes will backtrack tomorrow to pick them up herself. Jhora grabs the chests and heads back to town for some minor adjustments.

Day 17: BUILD nothing. BUILD nothing. While I had an opportunity to build the city hall today, I skipped it in favor of buying all my troops and heading out immediately. I'll grab gold from a chest or two to compensate. But I simply MUST start clearing out my area and getting underground. Jhora takes out the arena then takes the nearby furies for very minor losses. Earthblood picked up along the way.

Day 18: BUILD nothing. BUILD nothing. Jhora heads south and attacks the hunters. Without war machines/first aid I'm gonna take some losses. No way around it. So instead of sacrificing the valuable grems/golems I go in with only gargs/MotW/eldritch arrow. 22 garg losses versus a hoard of hunters. I'll live with that. Scouts continue on their way.

Day 19: BUILD city hall. BUILD nothing. Jhora grabs the necklace of dragonteeth and takes gold from both chests to ensure that I can build the city hall today. She'll now head for the marletto tower & the chest the familiars guard. Nur takes her place in the southern town's garrison. We now have only Narxes performing scout duties. She'll be gathering troops from dwellings and hitting the garden/windmill each week. Hmmm...it's been a while since I played the original game, I can't recall if the dwellings accumulate in this patch version or not. *heads off to double check* I don't want to miss troops due to them disappearing on each day 1. Okay, patch 1.4 made that dwelling growth universal. Good. No worries then.

Day 20: BUILD treasure cave. BUILD nothing. Early on, I left a bunch of treasure chests lying around because I wasn't ready to fight their guards. But I figured there'd be plenty of either gold or experience for me when I ˜was' ready. Well, that hasn't worked out as I thought. I keep finding artifacts instead. I've gotten the windstrider boots, the ice shield and the evercold icicle now. I'm not really complaining, but it does change my plans somewhat and hampers my hero's growth. Well the throng of familiars only managed to take out one golem (my retaliation killed them and prevented me from repairing him...this is pretty much the only way I ever lose golems). Jhora's heading south. Once I reach the stairs I'll need to make a choice, do I continue south clearing out the top, or do I dash underground to get the mines now. My resource demands aren't very steep right now, but that's completely due to the ore constraints. I may be able to just wait on the mines. Without the ore I won't be able to build anyway...but it'd be nice to have the rare's stockpiling. I'll decide then.

Day 21: BUILD stone parapet. BUILD nothing. Seeing as how I've got both an external parapet AND a recruitment hero, I break from my usual tradition and actually build the parapet. I usually wait a long while before I build that. Jhora continues south and Narxes continues north.

Day 22: (day 1 week 4): BUILD nothing. BUILD nothing. Looking in the tavern I spy Faiz, a level THREE hero. Hmmm...looking further I see that he's got 3 stacks of troops AND the ring of speed. While I normally don't like a plethora of heroes...3 stacks and a very nice arti is too good to pass up. Faiz high-tails it to the south and Jhora after upgrading the grems and buying a few extras. An otherwise uneventful day. Damn this ore shortage.

Day 23: BUILD arcane forge. BUILD nothing. As we're now in the last week of the first month, it's very obvious that this is a very bad map to use as an example of Artificer. The ore shortage is just staggering. This simply isn't normally the case. Not having that ore mine on day one or two has simply crippled us. That's 20 to 22 pieces of ore we don't have that we usually would. Not to mention the fact that in exploring as far as I have, to not have found a second one is extremely rare too. That second town not having a local ore mine is just odd. Without ore, that means no crushing or attack mini-artis. That usually would lead me towards a luck or resistance arti. But I've got a 4 leaf clover sitting right next to me, I've got tons of luck/morale boosters all over the place and I've got no casting enemy creatures in the neutral monsters. I'm simply not needing any of them right now. I could certainly make some without it hurting my development (such as it is) but the defense, haste or health artis will certainly help me survive, but they won't make or break a battle. I'll hold off on them for a bit.

This map is a prefect example of what Elodin was trying to explain. The ore shortage makes it very hard to use artificer early on. The problem I have is that this sort of map is the exception rather than the norm. I could've made a bee-line straight to the ore mine and then another bee-line straight to the second town. But it wouldn't have made much difference. In the entire starting area there were 2 stacks of ore (in campfires). I'll certainly win the map (I mean it's against the AI) but it will be a perfect example of how NOT to employ artificer effectively. So I think I'll stop here.

Elodin

10-06-2007, 04:00 PM

Here is more detailed report as requested. It is little bit long. First month was more detailed recording because of all the action of individual heroes and I also began to tire of so much record keeping later. Once Nur sails for conquest, little else to report from her comrades.

I chose Nur for main heroe because of excellent creeping ability with the regenerating mana. You will see she keeps pressing and pressing. Jhora fights some but not too much.

As mentioned before, this map have severe ore shortage. I think the map maker was intending market to be used heavily, and indeed it must be for factions that need to build mage guild especially. I have not done so much trading on any other map I think.

This highlights a problem with artificer skill. Wizard have hard time to build up multiple towns and use his racial too.

One thing that could help a little is if multiple arcane forges reduce cost of artifacts. Why do they not? Other towns have racials that benefit from owning multiple towns. Why not wizard?

Subterraneon Treasures (Blue Player)
Artifact: Magic Boots
Town Bonus: Marketplace Bonus
Random heroes

Day1: Build Tavern. Jhora hire Nur and Narxes. Nur and Narxes ride forward.

Day 2: Build Workshop
Nur attack horned demons. Lose 3 gargoyle. Narxes scoops up 700 gold. Both learn fire trap. Jhora ride forward, Narxes position for troop transfer.

Day3 .No ore in sight. Build Mage guild. Gremlins shuttled to Nur. Nur visits tattered flag and takes lumbermill with no loss. (Gets MOTW) Narxes flag lumbermill. Nur visit tattered flag again. Attack Blade Dancers guarding windmill. Lose 3 gargoyles.Continue south.

Day4: Build Blacksmith
Jhora 6 wood 3 merc (windmill). Narxes 5 ore, 500 gold. Nur attack horned demons. Lose 2 gargoyles. (Basic Attack). Nur visits well. Narxes 4 merc, 1900 gold.

Day 5: Golem Forge
Jahora 5 gem 500 gold 3 crystal. Nur visit planatarium, attack blade dancers guarding stables.(lose 4 gargoyles) Basic Summoning. Narxes 5 wood.

Day 6: Town Hall
Jhora visit planetarium, 5 merc, 500 gold. Jhora free Maeve. Maeve gives troops to Nur then head towards town. Narxes flag parapet and gives gargoyles to Nur when she passes. Nur visits well, stables, crystal of revelation. Gets Shield of Crystal Ice from chest. Nur fights horned demons guarding garden of wee folk. Lose 3 peasants, 1 gargoyle.

Day 7: Stone Parapet
Nur visit mercenary camp, kill zombies guarding underground. (Advanced Sorcery) Nur attack skeleton archers guarding ore mine. Lose 1 footman. Jhora visits well, advances towards parapet. Maeve stops by windmill. Narxes 1000 gold from chest, 4 mercury, flags ore mine, gets 10 ore. Narxes advances a few more steps, but uncovers nothing interesting so Nur goes past him(north.)

Week2 Day1: (16 wood, 2 ore, 16 mercury, 8 crystal, 5 sulphur, 5 gems, 4372 gold.) Build Marketplace
Maeve 3 sulphur from windmill. Jhora hires gargoyles, visits merc camp, and starts in opposite direction of Nur in underground. Nur kill archers guarding witch hut. (lose 7 archers, 20 peasants.) (Battle Frenzy) Narxes finds witch teaches light magic. Nur kill blade dancers in middle of passage (lose 1 gargoyle, 2 footmen.) Nur sees gem mine and heads that way.

Week2 Day2: (No build, save for city hall)
Attack obsidian gargoyles guarding gem mine. Lose 8 gargoyles. (Advanced Summoning) Narxes grabs 7 gems and flags mine, then advances towards golem forge, but can't reach yet. Nur turns around and starts back down passage. Jhora passes up obsidian gargs@mercury mine and sees zombies at crystal mine, but can't reach. Maeve sleeps in a warm bed in town.

Week2 Day3: . No Build
Jhora visit Dolmen of knowledge (Mark of Wizard).
Nur kill archers gurading crystal mine (lose 6 gargoyles). Nur flags mine since Narxes can't reach.
Narxes flags golem forge and heads to pick up crystal stacks.
Jhora kills zombies gurading sulphur mine(lose 2 garg), picks up 6 sulphur, tags mine, and heads towards crystal mine to give troops to Nur, who is headng that way.

Week2 Day4: City Hall
Nur recieve gargoyles from Jhora ad kills obsidian gargoyles guarding mercury mine (lose 6 garg) (Advanced Attack)
Narxes picks up 6 crystals. Jhora picks up 5 mercury and tags mine. Nur can't quite reach Dolmen of Knowledge.

Week2 Day5: Build Mage Tower
Jhora visit Dolmen and heads for surfact. Jhora reaches surface. Narxes heads for Dolmen.

Week2 Day6: Too short on ore/money to build.
Narxes visits Dolmain (Magic Mirror). Jhora decides to head for town. Nur kill minotaurs guarding artifacts ( Necklace of Lion, 4 Leaf Clover ). Lose 3 garg.(Advanced Artificer)

Week2 Day7: Altar of Wishes.
Maeve reaches windmill. Jhora is riding to town. Narxes reaches surface. Nur visits tattered flag, fights familiars for lumber mill. Flags windmill. Trade 4 mercury for one ore. Build Altar of wishes.

Week3 Day1 Treasure Cave
Maeve 3 gems from windmill. Nur Kill Hydras guarding cache (lose 10 gargoyles) (Basic Dark Magic). Narxes on his way to start picking up. Nur visit crystal of revelation, planetaruim. Narxes starts collecting the cache (No, I ain't about to count all that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Week3 Day2: Build Resourse Silo, marketplace (2nd town)
Nur capture 2nd town. Fight 63 skele archers/125 skeletons for arena. Lose 7 gargoyles (+2 Attack)

Week3Day3 Blacksmith (2nd town) Build Fort (first town)
Narxes gathers rest of stash. Nur visit tattered flag, kill blood maidens guarding Marletto Tower (Advanced Dark Magic.)
Nur visits tattered flag and shrine (sufferng) Maeve visits dolman (Recruitment)

Week3Day4
Maeve hires gargoyles from parapet and gives to Nur, who is heading towards first town. Narxes visit powerups and collect loose mercury/crystal near 2nd town.

Week3 Day5:
Nur visits stables and continues towares first town.

Week3 Day6: Build Capital. Build Golem Forge(second town)
Nur kills blood furies guarding 2 chests. Jhora takes the gold. (3500)

Week3 Day7: Citidel (first town) Workshop (2nd town)
Nur kills blood furies by first town and visits crystal of revelation.
Jhora gathers 600 gold, 5 wood, and windstrider boots out of chest.
Trade 10 wood for 2ore. Build Citadel
Trade 15 wood for 3 ore
Trade 6 crystal for 2 ore. Build workshop
Nur kills wardances guarding Arena (Expert summoning)(took +2 attack).

Week4 Day1 Build Mage Guild 2 (first town)
Maeve visit windmill. 3 ore http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
Nur visits town and hires some troops. She appreciates the wasp swarm spell. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif She then leaves. Jhora goes back to town, ready to hire more troops to take to Nur.

Week4 Day2:
Nur loses 27 gargoyles against horde of hunters
Visit dolmen, 10000 gold from chest.

Week4 Day3:
Nur picks up chest (1500 exp, Basic Enlightenment) Narxes picks up the dragon teeth necklace and gives it to Nur.
Narxes visits dolmen (Master of Wrath)
Jhora takes more troops to Nur.
Nur kills conscripts by war machine factory and then kills familiars by Marletto Tower.

Week4 Day4:
Nur gets evercold icicle from chest.
Jhora visit dolmen (expert sorcery)

Week4 Day5:
Nur ride back towards first town

Week4 Day6: Build Cloud Colosium

Week4 Day7: Build Castle after lots of market trades for ore.
15 wood for 3 ore
12 crystal for 4 ore
3 sulphur for 1 ore (Build Castle)

Week5: Day1: Arcane Forge
2xInitiative artifacts (mage and gremlin)
Narxes 6 sulphur from windmill

Week5: Day2: Build Library

Week5: Day3 Mage Guild 3 nothing useful.

Ride,ride, long ride to first garrison

Week5: Day5: Mage Guild1 (2nd Town)
Nur defeats garrison

trade 1 crystal for 1 ore

visit dolman (Advanced Enlightenment)
Kill hunters to get magic boots and 2 chests for experience.

Week5: Day6: pick up goodies.

Week5http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifay7: Ossir landed at 2nd garrison. Nur heads there, Razzak is hired in first town and brings troops forward. Chain is in place.

WEEK6: Day1 Build Level4 mage guild., Town Hall 2nd town

Nur won but took major loses (including all of the mages. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )Expert Sorcery, Magic Mirror.

Nur heads back to first town to learn spells.

Narxes becomes a sailor.

Week6 Day2 Mage Guild5
Bah, disappointed by spells. Tarvern in 2nd Town. Hire Nathir. Start taking troops down to first town (I hate not having caravan.)
Nur visits Sylvan Ancient. (Expert Dark Magic) Maeve goes underground to get troops from golem forge.

Week6 Day3 Archmage Guild
Day4 Upgrade Gremlin
Day6 Upgrade Golem Foundry

Week7 Day 2. Green invades while Nur almost at shipyard
Week7 Day6 Learn Confusion from shrine in AI area to south.

Week7 Day 7 Nur learns archery

Week8 Day2 Capture Nudhar. Hire unhired gremlins, build mage guild 1. Nope, already know those spells.

Week8 Day6 Capture another town. Nur levels to 20 (Master of Mind.) Now have mass confusion and blind http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But no Phantom forces.

Week8Day7 Build Mage guild5 Conjure Phoenix
Nur grabs nearby chest to hit level 20 and visits crystal. Go back to town for Town Portal. Rework artifacts.

Nur: (Level 20)
Exp Sorcery--Mana Regeneration
Exp Attack--Battle Frenzy, Archery
Exp Summoning
Exp Dark--Master of Mind
Adv Enlightenment
Adv Artificer--(Mystic) MOTW, Magic Mirror

Attack: 14
Def: 8
Sp: 15
Kn: 23

Jolly-Joker

10-06-2007, 04:10 PM

I'm a bit disappointed about your post, Chuck.
This is a pretty easy map and I've used the Artificer quite a lot. I'm at day 35 now. Here's my report so far.

DAY 1: I build the Tavern. I move Jhora a step out of town, hire both Nur and Narxes, transfer all troops with Nur to Jhora and attack the pack of Furies, killing them and losing 6 Gargs in the process. I move Nur out south and leave Narxes in town. The WM Factory is only lightly guarded and I move Jhora into that direction. Since I hired 2 heroes and I'll need at least an Ammo Cart I need money and leave the chests for Narxes to take later.

DAY 2: I build the Gremlin Manufactory. Narxes buys out, transfers troop to Jhora and heads to the chests. Jhora attacks the horde of Peasants and beats them without losses, gaining MotW and 1 Knowledge.
Now what?
As long as I don't find any ore my options are VERY limited: I can upgrade the Gremlins, gaining a lot of initiative, but that will bare me from expanding my income. Sure, the town has the Market special, but still an ore will cost 4 precious resources. Can I reach City Hall without ore? I check. Yes. Expensive, but yes. What will I do with the money, though?
Since I can employ no Golems without ore, the only valid advantage of the Masters is more then 50% higher Initiative – which of course is equal to more than 50% damage. I have to keep in mind that everything I do I do with the purpose of getting ore. I decide to do a test battle against the Demons. Jhora buys an Ammo Cart and attacks the Demons guarding a pile of gold and a spell shrine. It goes fairly well. I lose 2 Gargs against the 76 Demons, but end the battle with only 3 Mana left. Jhora did most of the work, but with another point of Knowledge I can do it. I may switch troops with Nur to make use of her as well, and I start by handing her over the troops. Then I head to the chests with the intention to pick one up for herself to gain another level. I should have Narxes sent to the pile and the spell shrine, but it's too late now.
Nur eyes the Familiars. They have nearly double as much initiative as my Gremlins and Jhora already has MotW. It would be folly to attack them with Nur. Even though... No! I need the Sawmill. So I move Nur to the Tattered Flag. Yes, there is the Sawmill. A horde of Skeletons that she beats without losses. Nur flags the Sawmill and ends her turn.

DAY 3: Nur picks up the campfire for 5 ore! Jhora takes a chest for 1500 exp and levels twice: +2 Power, adv. Sorcery and I'm tempted to take basic Destructive, but there are too many "If"s linked with that decision. In fact, Mana Regeneration is just fine. Still, the question is how to proceed. With 10 ore I have now two ore builds and I can see Golems on the horizon.
Jhora realizes that she didn't visit the Dolmen which is NOT guarded by the Elves as I had thought initially. She cashes the 1000 exp. Narxes picks up the other chest and moves to the gold pile and spell shrine. Nur moves near the Tattered Flag to wait for Jhora who is coming to her.
I build the Blacksmith.

DAY 4: Jhora heads to the Flag, hits it and switches troops back from Nur. She moves to the Windmill but cannot reach the Blade Dancers yet. Nur picks up a campfire for 5 Gems by way of learning that Sylannas Tree wants 10 Gems for its wisdom and heads further to the Crystal pile. What shall Narxes do? I'll have to go underground soon, so it might help to have Narxes as a transport and to keep him with Jhora. Narxes picks up the gold, learns Fire Trap and ends his move beside Jhora.
I build the Golem Forge.

DAY 5: Nur picks up 3 Crystal and a campfire with 5 Mercury. She then buffs her Power and moves into the direcion of the Kowledge buffer. Jhora attacks, losing 3 Gargs and levels for 1 Knowledge and Expert Sorcery. This has advantages (Jhora casting faster) and disadvantages (will get more Sorcery abilities offered), but I don't really want Enlightenment. Narxes picks up 6 Wood and 3 Merc at the Windmill. 5 ore would have been nice, but I don't need the Masters yet – Jhora is getting along nicely.
So I build Mage Guild 1. Haste, Weakness and Fist. Haste might be good in some years, but for the time being Jhora will cast double Arrows.
I head her to the Flag again. Jhora stops in front of the Demons guarding the Den, Narxes at her side again.

DAY 6: Lots of possibilities. Jhora goes for the Demons and loses 1 Garg. Narxes picks up a chest for 1500 gold, 5 Wood and a campfire with 4 Mercury. When he flags the Den I notice that Red player seems to be another Academy.
Jhora hits the Magic Well.
And sees the light. The underground portal guarded by a horde of Zombies! I'm going to storm there and will have ore very soon. Am I greedy? Yes! What I would really like to do is hand Nur the troops and hit the prison with the nice arti there, and bring this back to Jhora. Is Nur up to the task? Heck, I hope so.
Nur loses 2 Gargs and gains 1 Power plus MotW. She picks up the arti, frees Maeve and heads back to Jhora who takes back everything plus the artifact. Maeve heads into the unknown, uncaring for any magic buffers and sees interesting stuff.
I head Narxes home. Enough scouts now.
Jhora attacks the lots of Blade Dancers at the Stables and loses 4 Gargs. She levels up for +1 Power. I take my time for the skill. Magic Insight is useful only if Phantom is in the guild and I don't get or want Summoning, and the Destructive spells are not bad either but the rest? Jhora is gaining Power fast. Counterspell won't help me in the nearer future. I would like to put the decision between those a bit up. That's why I pick basic Luck. It's a decision with a grain of salt because resourcefulness would slow Jhora, but still...
She hits the Stables and then the Crystal of Knowledge and moves on after Maeve.
I build the Town Hall.

DAY 7: Jhora opens the chest and finds the Ice Shield.
Maeve buys Gargoyles and brings them to Jhora. Then she heads on and liberates a pile of Mercury ending her movement. Jhora hits the Demons, the Garden and the Zombies for no losses and - sadly – adv. Luck +1 Knowledge and heads underground. She stops directly in front of the first ore pile. Nur drinks from the well, moves to the Knowledge Crystal and then further into the direction of the Mercenay Camp. Narxes stops at the mill.
I build the Marketplace.

DAY 8: Week of life. I don't like that. It doubles the creature advantage the AI will have over me.
Narxes gets 3 Sulfur out of the Mill and heads to the Dolmen.
Maeve picks up a chest for 1000 gold and moves further into the unknown to pick up a pile with 2 Mercury.
Nur visits the Mercenary Camp and the Garden and goes into the underground, where Jhora beats a horde Skelly Archers and loses 2 Gargs. Nur flags and picks up a pile for 4 ore, ending her move. Jhora picks up another for 6 ore. I check her stats. She's amazing. I'll smash the underground with what I have, so I move her deeper aong the tunnel.
I build the Arcane Forge.

DAY 9: Maeve attacks the 2nd Academy and loses all Peasants and 2 Archers, but succeeds. She continues and takes a pile with 4 Crystal. Narxes levels at the dolmen and moves to town. Nur is exploring the middle tunnel in the underground. Jhora beats a Horde of Archers losing 4 Gargs. He stops before the Gem Mine.
I exchange 2 Merc for money on the Market and build the City Hall.
Belatedly I check the ton info. Crystals.

DAY 10: Jhora takes the Gem mine guardians, a horde of Obsidian Gargoyles, losing 13 Gargs. She flags the mine. She's finished now with only 3 Gargs left and moves back. Nur moves into the direction of the witchhut. Maeve makes the buff tour. Narxes moves into the direction underground.
I build MG 2.

DAY 11: Witch Hut has Light Magic. Nur picks up 7 Gems. Maeve continues her tour.
I build Djinn.

DAY 12: I build Djinn Horde.
Maeve picks up 11 Gargs and hands them to Jhora who disappears into the underground again, coming to rest at the Alchemist Lab. Narxes comes to help transport the rest of the Gargs next turn. Nur flags the Golems, but can't hire. She makes back to the portal.

DAY 13: Narxes buys the remaining 17 Gargs, hands them to Maeve, visits the Mercenary Camp and heads back to the Windmill. Maeve follows Jhora and hands her the Gargs. She will pick up stuff and in the end move to the Golem Forge to pick them up. Nur leaves the underground. Jhora fights yet another horde of Obsidian Gargoyles, losing 8, flags the Lab, visits a Dolmen for 1000 exp. and moves on to stand before the Sulfur Dune which is guarded by a horde of Zombies.
No build.

DAY 14: Maeve picks up 5 Mercury all in all, picks the exp at the Dolmen as well for Battle Frenzy and heads to the Golem Forge. Nur heads to a Dolmen overground and levels for Master of Wrath. She moves on the southern buffers. Narxes reaches the Windmill. Jhora beats the Zombies without losses, picks up 6 Sulfur and flags the Dune. She heads on to the Crystal Cavern.
I build the Mage Tower Not bad. Next turn I'll build Library and then it's time for the Capitol.

DAY 15: Week of the Caterpillar. I build the Library and get Stone Spikes and Ice Bolt. Narxes picks up 3 Gems. He heads to town. Maeve moves and will pick up the Crystal piles of the Cavern Jhora flags after beating a Horde of Archers, losing 7 Gargs. All underground mines are flagged. There's a horde of Dancers standing between the Witch Hut and the Gem mine, but I have no idea what they are guarding and no reason to find out at the moment. Jhora heads back to the surface. Nur makes her tour and starts going back.

DAY 16: Nur moves into the direction of the Garden, Narxes to town where he waits. Maeve picks up 6 Crystal and moves to the Golem Forge. Jhora heads to the portal.
No build.

DAY 17: When I check my building options I realize I have to build a Marketplace in the 2nd Academy sometime, yet. I have to make a plan here. A few resource piles are still lying around, but no ore. So I will get to 29 all in all until the end of week 4 and to 15 until the end of this week. Gargoyles don't seem to have a place in my options. The reduction in building costs to 5 Ore in ToE and patch 1.6 is probably a good thing. I need 40 ore for my 3 town defense buildings, the Pavillon and the Colosseum and this will be no problem whatsoever – I can exchange enough ore on my 2 Markets being worth 3. If I want to get MORE than EITHER one of the creature dwellings I must exchange Ore THIS week, because I need 10 for Fort/Citadel and another 10 for the creature dwelling. I'd like to build my level 3 guild as well, though. At this stage it looks a bit like I might do the D&D shuffle (Suffering is in the level 3 shrine) , so it can wait. That means, then, I can simply wait this turn and bild Capitol next, so:
No build.
However, something's nagging in the back of my mind. I have the feeling, I've overlooked something. I stare onto the building screen. And then it hits me. Right. I have no army. Gremlins are still as unupgraded as Golems.
Jhora leaves the underground and hands Nurs the troops who goes back to the second sawmill, beating lots of Familiars losing 1 Garg, but not having the mps to flag anymore. Maeve moves on to hertarget. Jhora visits Mercenary Camp and Garden and heads to the stables. Narxes leaves the town to maybe transport troops eventually.

DAY 18: I build Capitol and Marketplace. Nur flags the Sawmill and moves back. Jhora hits the Stables and heads home, Narxes pases her on his way to Nur. Maeve reaches the Golem Forge and waits there.

DAY 19: Nur hits the Stables and moves to Narxes, reaching him not quite. Narxes overtakes everything and hands it to Jhora. Jhora hits the flag, attacks a throng of Famliars guarding the Marletto and loses 13 Gargoyles. Not good. Bad fight. I hit the flag again, go the Tower and pick up the chest, hoping for a level but getting an artifact. I head to town. Narxes takes his place at the mill again.
I build the Silver Pavillon.

DAY 20: Recheck of the building situation. My plan was to build Fort and Citadel and I could do that, trading on the Market – but then I'd be missing the funds to hire troops which I actually have to, if I don't want to sit idle. I'm not missing too much by not building Citadel though: 1 Rak, 1 Djinn, 2 Mages, 4 Golems, 10 Gremlins. I check the map and see that I should be able to clear the rest of my turf with Gremlin Masters and Steel Golems alone, but this will cost 10 more ore and I miss the Sulfur now.
Still, the MG's look good.
I let Jhora rest in town, not using a few mps, and move Nur to the Marletto and further to town.
No build.

DAY 21: I build the Gremlin upgrade. I buy the 60 Gremlin Masters in town and grade the rest of my Gremlins up to master. I divide the Gremlins into 3 stacks, equip every stack with a Defense-arti and attack the lots of Blood Furies near the town with those MGs only. I kill the Furies, losing 3 MGs. Jhora fires an impressive Icebolt worth 198 damage. I visit the Knowledge Crystal and pick everything up. The chest contains yet another useful artie. I change the 10% MR boots against those other Boots giving me +1 speed. Nur visits the Crystal as well.

DAY 22: Weak of deadly calm. Maeve buys 36 Golems and moves into the direction of the portal, picking up Lightmagic on the way.
Narxes finds 3 ore at the Mill! He moves to the Marletto.
Back in town with Jhora again I destroy the 3 artifacts. Now what?
Due to the ore situation I can't barter Sulfur on the Market. So Golems have to wait. No problem per se, but I don't want to sit idle. I hire all Golems and equip my single stack of MGs with an Attack/Luck artifact. With Gremlins Golems and the remaining 2 Gargoyles Jhora attacks the horde of War Dancers losing 1 Gargoyle. She levels up for 1 Knowledge and Resourcefulness, gets 2 Attack in the Arena and moves back to town where she destroys the artifact and stays.
Nur gets 2 attack in the Arena as well, moves to the Dolmen and levels for Adv. Sorcery.
No build.

DAY 23: I check my builds and find that I'm missing 18 ore this week, if I want to get all builds in that I'd like. I have a campfire yet to pick up but of course chances for ore are slim. I can count on at least 7 ore by way of bartering wood and 19 by way of precious resources – so I have enough. What can I spare for an artifact – and what artifact will be of use for me? I'm going to take one for sure because I hope to get Consume Artifact. Health/Defense and Luck Defense are possible. I forge Health/Defense, each for +3, equip the MGs and move with them in front of the Elves guarding the nice Dragontooth arti. Nur moves back to town. Maeve follows her path while Narxes moves into her directions.
No build.

DAY 24: Maeve leaves the UG, visits the Garden and moves further. Narxes moves into position to overtake the Golems next turn.
I build Golem upgrade, grade them up and bring them with Nur to Jhora who hands Nur the starting artifact, the boots.
Jhora attacks a horde of Hunters and loses 8 MGs. Since Jhora has Resourcefulness she picks things up anyway and one chest offers 1500 exp. Jhora levels for Spoils of War and 1 Defense! I may still get more ore! Jhora moves into the direction of the Tattered Flag; Nur is following.

DAY 25: I saw a green boat when it was the AI's turn
Maeve transfers Golems and Gargs via Narxes and Nur into town ehere they are upgraded.
I build the Fort
Jhora moves to the Flag and then into the direction of the Stables.

DAY 26: I barter for 2 ore on the market and build the Citadel. The upgraded Golems go back to Jhora wh visits the stables and move to the Minotaurs. She leaves a trail now. Maeve makes the buff tour. Nur heads nack to town, Narxes to mill. Nothing from green.

DAY 27: Jhora has 141 MGs, 83 Steel Golems and 28 Gargoyles. She attacks the Minotaur Kings and wins without losses. No resources, though. The stack isn't big or expensive enough. I pick the 4 Leaf Clover but leave the Lion Nacklace. Narxes and Nur move to acquire it. I will give Nur the Dragontooth Necklace as well.
Jhora moves on beating the Cerberi losing 10 Gargs and the Ammo Cart. No resources. She visits the Dolmen and she levels for Adv. Attack and 1 Power. She picks up two chests, one for exp, one for money.
I barter 12 Crystal and 12 Mercury for 4 ore each and build the Colosseum.

DAY 28: Narxes picks the Dragontooth Necklace from Jhora and moves to the Lion Necklace. Nur follows him.
Jhora beats lots of Blood Furies at the Marletto without losses and visits it while levelling 1 Knowledge and Archery. No resources, of course not. She visits the Flag and hits the Obs. Gargoyles guarding the Stables for a loss of 3 Gargs. No res. I hit the Hydras for no losses. 1 Sulfur. She picks up 8 Wood and 3 Mercury.
I barter 25 Wood and 3 each of Crystal, Mercury and Sulfur for 8 ore and build the Castle. This is pretty precise – good play. And luck. Much luck? No. It simply worked.
Anyway, Maeve hits the town and moves t the Windmill.

DAY 29: Week of the Lion. Jhora hits the cashe. 4 Sulfur in res and takes the 1500 exp from one chest. The campfire offers 5 ore. This means that my good play wasn't good at all: I should have gone for this cash directly leaving everything else along the way, I'h bave saved myself a lot of resources.
Maeve hits the mill for another 6 ore. I miss picking up the Lion Necklace with Narxes from shock and have to return. That one is for Maeve anyway. Ihave 13 Ore suddenly.
I don't build.

DAY 30: I build level 3 guild Earthquake, Righteous Might and both destructive spells. Jhora hits buffers, attacks a throng of Skellies and levels for Power and exp. Attack. Rest moves as planned Nur takes 2 attack at Arena.

DAY 31: Jhora takes attack as well. She attacks lots of paladins, losing 1 Golem, getting a few Gems. Nur takes artis, but transfers Ring to Jhora. Jhora visits stables. Nur follows. Maeve and Narxes try to hit buffers. I build Gargoyles.

DAY 32: No build. Everyone moves.

DAY 33: Jhora overtakes 14 Gargoyles from Nur who moves back to town. Maeve and Narxes still are on bff tour. Jhora hits the last buffer missing and then the garison of elementals losing 3 MGs.
No build.

DAY 34: I go to the dolmen and level, Magic Mirror, beat the horde of Hunters, losing 5 MGs and picking stuff up, and beat lots of silver unicorns for no losses. She visits the spell shrine and learns Lightning Bolt. Nur runs to town. Maeve follows. Narxes stays at the Garden.
No build.

DAY 35: Jhore hits the shipyard and builds. She moves near the stables. Nur hits town and hires out. Maeve follows.

DAY 36: Week of the Hawk. I hire Gremlins, Golems and Mages. It's only Nur, but I forge: Defense for the Giants and Raks, Init for Genies, Armor-piercing for Mages and Life for Golems. Nur moves to Maeve which overtakes, buys an Ammo Cart and moves into the direction of Jhora who hits the Stables and enters the boat. Narxes hits the garden and moves between Maeve and Jhora.

We'll see how the water looks like.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-06-2007, 05:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm a bit disappointed about your post, Chuck.
This is a pretty easy map and I've used the Artificer quite a lot. I'm at day 35 now. Here's my report so far. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I know it's an easy map. And yes, I could've used artificer quite a bit. But the problem was two-fold. First was the crippling deficiency of ore. Second was the matchups in terms of wandering monsters. The mini-arti's that I could've made simply wouldn't have made much of an impact. I could've used the marketplaces to trade for resources, but the exchange rates with only 2 markets is so bad that while it may help you in the short run, it kills you in the long run. I simply won't use them unless it's absolutely necessary for victory. Not just to prove a point.

There were numerous mistakes on that play-by-play for me. I'll be blunt and honest...I simply wasn't paying much attention. My daughters were running around screaming all morning and it was a map I didn't particularly care for. Kinda hard to get in the mood to play with those strikes against me. I'll give it another go later today after the OSU v Purdue game. A Buckeye fan DOES have his priorities. :O)

zenithale

10-06-2007, 10:14 PM

Here my try! I decide to play without take the tier 3 dwelings , for a greater challenge.
You can download here 8 SAVES (http://rapidshare.com/files/60810657/saves_ST_zenithale.zip.html) (1 per week (the last day or the first day of the next week) and many REPLAYS (http://rapidshare.com/files/60808644/replays_ST_zenithale.zip.html).
Notes:
-I forgot save during the 5th week, so I have restart from 4th week once the game finished to make a save (hope without too changes).
-You can see in the game the dwellings, heroes and mini-artifacts (+3HP+2Luck; +4HP; +2Luck; +5Defense+2Luck; -54%SpellDamages; -60%SpellDamages...), here the comments aren't reliable (bad memory...).

During the first week:
Nur: level 7 and Jhora: level 3
Buildings:
Tharaa: tavern, gremlins, mage guilde, blacksmith, golems, town hall, market
Hadiya: gremlins
http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/3564/week1ci2.th.jpg (http://img165.imageshack.us/my.php?image=week1ci2.jpg)

During the second week:
Nur: level 12 and Jhora: level 6
Buildings:
Tharaa: arcane forge, mage guilde level 2 and 3, city hall, altar of wishes and treasure cave
Hadiya: gremlins up, blacksmith, tavern
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6509/week2tf5.th.jpg (http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=week2tf5.jpg)

During the 3th week:
Nur: level 13 and Jhora: level 7
Buildings:
Tharaa: mage guilde level 4, mage tower, capitol
Hadiya: golem forge
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/5371/week3uj6.th.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=week3uj6.jpg)

During the 4th week:
Nur: level 16 and Jhora: level 9
Buildings:
Tharaa: castle, library
Hadiya: mage guilde, town hall, city hall
http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/8246/week4jd1.th.jpg (http://img69.imageshack.us/my.php?image=week4jd1.jpg)

During week 5 there's a BIG hero who attck me, with 8 Emeralds and a lot of troops. No way to manage victory, but you can see the replay ("ST_big_hero_week_5.sav") http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ...poor AI ^^. I run away but the next week I crush her.
Weeks 5 and 6:
http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9047/week5kl6.th.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=week5kl6.jpg)_http://img113.imageshack.us/img113/9703/week6dg6.th.jpg (http://img113.imageshack.us/my.php?image=week6dg6.jpg)
Weeks 7 and 8:
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/4818/week7nh6.th.jpg (http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=week7nh6.jpg)_http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/9389/week8dj4.th.jpg (http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=week8dj4.jpg)
http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/7809/waterattackzd8.th.jpg (http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=waterattackzd8.jpg)_http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/4143/landingfz1.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=landingfz1.jpg)

...and the end, exactly 2 months:
http://img300.imageshack.us/img300/6181/endbk7.th.jpg (http://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=endbk7.jpg)
Nur: level 21 (6 18 22 17) and Jhora: level 16 (3 16 13 15)

(Hey, I manage to creep without Hellfire! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif )

Pitsu

10-07-2007, 12:34 AM

My report.

pre-game plans: We can look miniarties as the might side of academy. They are to boost creatures might and they do hinder magic guid development in early on. With this though I also have an idea to not use much magic at all, but get a might hero (knight, demon, ranger) to lead my armies. From a previous test I remember that artificied units keep bonuses under any hero's command.

1. Build tavern and hire Narxes and Nur. No might heroes, thus I need to go with Jihora as main. From tavern I also learn that my opponents are blue wizard, red ranger and green warlock. Unfortunately, although I know the symmetry of the map layout, I do not remember which side was blue. But it is no hurry yet. With combined armies, Jihora takes off some furies. Nur moves forward as scout.
With horror I notice that everything I have is "owned by SirCharles". Heck, I hate to be owned by him, but I resist the will to force the savegame to know my profile name.
2. build gremlins. Narxes ships them to Jihora, who gets MotW from dolmen level-up and takes war machine factory.
3. Build mage guild level 1. Jihora takes sawmill and aa bunch of overseers guarding some treasure. Jihora gets enlightenment I wont comment the movements of heroes without significant battles, but they move around and collect free stuff and scout.
4. Stables freed from blade dancers, Jihora gains intelligence. Gremlin upgrade built.
5. Jihora kills demons on the way and gives gremlins and mage to Nur leaving herself with some gargs only. Build blackshmith.
6. Jihora reaches other town and takes it with her magic. Nur, with main forces takes zombies and skeletons and captures the ore pit. Build town hall.
7. golems built. gremlins move towards town for upgrading. First week total casualties are about 7 gargs and 7 gremlins.
8. Week of life - double growth. Uh! Build marketplace and hire golems and gremlins.
9. No build and heroes just move without battling.
10.Jihora takes zombies guarding the prison and gives war machines master gremlins and golems all to Maeve. A haste spelialist and benediction could go well with gremlins and golem combo. No build.
11. Still no building, Maeve moves underground followed by Jihora (will battle ranged creatures with spells, and apparently there were 2 archer mine guards IIRC) and Narxes.
12. City hall built. Mercury mine taken, Maeve gains archery.
13. gargs built, and gremlins in the other town. Sulfur mine taken without losses.
14. Crystal mine taken with minimal casualties. Blackshmith built to the other town
15. Gem mine taken and 15 gargs lost. Maeve gains advanced light magic and advanced attack.
16. Witch hut studied and Maeve has expert light magic. Mage guild lvl 2 built.
17. On the ground again. Maeve takes some minotaurs and gains defense skill. mage guild built to the second town.
18. Cerbery killed by Maeve. Lost 17 gremlins there though. But war machines skill gained. Furies and obsidian gargoyles in the same area fall before Maeve too. And mass haste ability (master of wrath) gained. Arcane forge built.
19. Genies built. Hydras taken without loss by Maeve.
20. Skeletons killed and +2 attack and ballista skill for Maeve.
21. Capitol and Town hall built to towns. Maeve moves towards harbor, Jihora is in main town.
22. gremlins and golems and few genies hired. Jihora takes furies and finds windstrider boots. Moves thereafter South to meet Maeve. Here I did try to use artificier (+2life and - 1 enemy def on gremlins and +3 def and +initiative on golems). However, after seeing how much my building schedule crippled because of that After a week I returned to this save and proceeded without artifacts.
23. Maeve levels up on Sylvannas ancient and gains battle frenzy. She gets reinforcements through Jihora/Narxes chain and takes gate and unicorns with 4 gremlin, 8 garg and 1 golem loss. Using the thieves guild teaches me that blue wizard is clearly the weakest of my opponents. I have seen green heroes moving in North of my territory. Someone did move in South, but I was not 100% sure it was during blue turn. But since Southern shore is closer than the opposing one I will head there first.
Maeve gets into the boat
24. Maeve moves south and sees a red ship with strong army (slightly stronger than her, I would say). Even if she would win, she would not be in conditions to conquer and Jihora is at home defense, so I turn back and hope the red to go its own way. During its turn the red follows me, but does not trigger fight. Possibly one of my scout heroes on land seemed like a better pray.
25. fort built. Maeve lands on blues land.
26. Moving into blue's land leads to another encounter with strong red and average blue hero. Again I turn back, but run out of movement. During red turn, the red hero kills firs blue (who was closer) and then takes on me. I manage to win with 34 golems left.
27. Maeve with her golems runs towards where I believe to be former blue capitol. Blue has been defeated by red, but it must have occured recently and my hope is that the defenses are not up yet. 28 The town has now citadel, mages and rakshasas built, though had to use marketplace a lot for them. Genies are upgraded and with windstrider boots the sultans take off the hunters in starting area and, well, the starting area is under Jihoras control now.

MONTH 2

29. Maeve reaches former blue capitol, which is guarded by a few colossi, rakshasa, genie, magi and several golems and gargs. No hero visible. Here I took the risk of attacking with only 30+ golems and ballista and with no other magic than haste (up to this point Maeve had not visited any town). I won convincingly in auto combat as well as manual. And since it is the first day of week, reinforcements are waiting in town (no citadel of castle boost though.) Hire gremlins and upgrade golems.
Razzack hired and moves to flag mines.

33. Maeve takes the second former blue town. So far red and less frequently green heroes have sailed on sea and occasionally landed on my (starting area) shore, but no serious attempt has been made. It also looks like they have some battles between each other.

Week 2
Maeve has boarded a ship and plans to invade red area. Reinforcements from blue capitol chained to her. artifacts +2health gremlins and -1 def golems.

Red has two good armies (a few dragons etc) sailing. Both run towards blue area once Maeve has left. She returns and kills them both with little losses.

On day 39 Jihora in my starting town hires whatever she can and artificies: -1 def golem, +1 speed and +2 luck sultans, +3health and mag resistance gremlins. Her plan is to invade green.

Week 3
Again I manage to take a town (red capitol) on the first day of week. Lost academy troops (mainly the higher level ones) are replaced by emerald dragons, treants unicorns and hunters. Maeve moves North to finish off the red. From Sylvan town she had learned now teleport and ressurection.

Meanwhiles 2 green heroes with rather strong armies appear. One boards so that Jihora can reach him next turn, other waits on shore. Jihora takes the risk to attack the on in boat. Bad idea, since the forces are not only superior, but the hero is Zoltan, who blocks any spell that Jihora uses. And Jihora has only ice bold and eldrich for damage spells. She takes down a part of Zoltans army nevertheless, but surrenders when slightly more than half of her troops are killed.
The other green hero sails towards last red town and Maeve (dunno, which one attracted him). Zoltan collects some treasure on sea and goes home.
Jihora was rehired in my starting town. Since a new week had been meanwhiles, she gets more troops and goes stubbornly the same way towards green.

Day 5 Red defeated by Maeve and one of the green armies as well.

Week 4 Month 2
Maeve reaches the green's second town, guarded by Zoltan and another guy. There is like 4 shadow dragons and 4 black dragons + lots of others. Maeve summons more treants, dragon, and unicorns from nearest castle. And wins with teleported treants and golems. After that immediately starts to run towards green capitol.

Jihora reaches the green capitol a day earlier, but she can take troops and artifacts from Maeve.

Day 6 Week 4 Month 2 game over.

Conclusions: Well, I would not go for early miniarties at least on this map.

http://img102.imageshack.us/img102/3752/finalyx3.th.jpg (http://img102.imageshack.us/my.php?image=finalyx3.jpg)
http://img453.imageshack.us/img453/1689/maevexx9.th.jpg (http://img453.imageshack.us/my.php?image=maevexx9.jpg)

Jolly-Joker

10-07-2007, 02:52 AM

After getting up today I played another 2 weeks:

DAY 37: Troops are transported to Jhora, leaving Gargoyles out. Whoever is who, what I can see of blue's territory is unplundered. Jhora heads south. I build Gremlins.

DAY 38: I build the Blacksmith. Jhora attacks a Wreck and gets a nice arti. She lands on blue's turf.

DAY 39: I build Golem Forge and move south and east

DAY 40: I build MG 1. Jhora sees another Academy owned by green.

DAY 41: I build Town Hall. Jhora takes Academy, builds the Arcane forge and rebilds her artifacts and then beats the Pit Lords guarding the artifacts without losses. On my home turf I move the heroes in place to organize a chain. I will need to reinforce Jhoras troops.

DAY 42: A green Warlock burst out of the underground on blue's turf. Jhora picks up artis and moves into the direction of the stables. Nur hires out. No build.

DAY 43: The Warlock moves to my ship, not reaching it.
Week of Winds. I hire Havez in the new town, hire out and equip Jhora with the new troops. Jhora follows the Warlock who is now trapped.

DAY 44: The Warlock moves onto the boat. Jhora attacks him. It's a level 13 Yrbeth which I beat without losses. I get a nice arti from her. I'm going to have to wait here and clear the vicinity until my reinforcements are here.
I build a tavern in my 2nd town.

DAY 45: I build Gargoyle upgrade, grade them up and hire nearly out. I tranfer all troops via Maeve to Narxes, barter money for a boat, build one and embark with Narxes.

DAY 46: I overtake troops from Narxes and build City Hall in Town #3 and MG 2 in Town #2. Jhora's development has been unlucky in skills. I've been offered Counterspell most of the time and no Magic skill. Her stats are goo with 9 10 12 20. Jhora moves to conquer the 2nd blue town, but when I switch turn I get the message that blue has been defeated. Hmm.

DAY 47: I build City Hall in Town 2

DAY 48: No build everyone moves.

DAY 49: Red level 16 Galib sits in the Academy with an army build around 6 Emeralds worth 14500 exp, as it is. The battle is easy, actually, due to my high all around initiative, but I lose 2 Giants and 20 Genies, but's that's mostly it. I get to level 20 and adv. Destructive and learn Circle of Winter and all movement spells among others. I grade my army up completely. Jhora ends her turn in town.

The game is obviously won now, no matter what happens. Jhora is 13 12 13 21. I seem to remember that you may get from one turf to another with Dimension Door, but I'm not sure about that, but still.

So the Forge facts again:

1) I build the Forge on day 8, at that point as a possible build to reach level 9 and City Hall.
2) On day 21 I made my first use of the Forge. On day 22 I destroyed, rebuilt and destroyed again.
3) On day 23 I equipped my Master Gremlins with a mini arti level 2 that I kept for the next weeks. Note that I reached my building goals finishing Castle and high level creatures within 4 weeks.
4) On day 36 I forged another 5 level 1 artifact, equipping ALL stacks in my army with a mini-artifact.

Now take into account that you need 15 ore less in the next game version to build upgraded Gargoyles.

Kranyum

10-07-2007, 06:12 AM

One small suggestion here: Can you please stop using rapidshare as a way to distribute files: I am sick of waiting hours in order to get a damn little file.

Maybe Chuckles can provide some space at the genie's lamp?

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-07-2007, 06:45 AM

Hmmm...I can see now that for the most part the point has been made with this particular map. As I said before, it's just a bad example for early artificer use. Yes, JJ managed to use them pretty early, but I'm not sure how much use he got out of them. In a normal map though, the presence and effectiveness of the mini-artis is much more predominante. Nicely played guys. I was particularly intrigued by Pitsu's play of using Maeve with artificer. I would've been interested in seeing that on a different map where it could've really been leveraged.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s

10-07-2007, 01:54 PM

Last go-round guys. Playing the same map several times is getting pretty tedious.

------------------------------------

Subterranean Treasures (original H5 version)
Heroic
Academy-Yellow

Day 1: Build Tavern. Well, we start out with good ole' Jhora with the magic resistance boots. In the tavern I find Narxes and Nur. I know that I'll build the gremlins on day 2 so I'll leave a hero in town for a shuttle. Jhora takes all the troops and clears the smaller stack of blood furies with 1 garg loss. With the knowledge of the ore situation, I'm going to have to plan ahead even further than normal. And while I hate using the marketplaces, it looks as though it'll be pretty much required here. Damn.

Day 2: Build Workshop. Narxes buys grems and shuttles them to Nur. Jhora grabs 2 chests and gets adv. Sorcery and basic destruction. She then clears the war machine factory and levels again, this time taking basic luck. With all the ore needs, I'm praying for resourcefulness (and maybe spoils of war). Nur takes all troops from Jhora and clears the demons with 4 garg losses then buys an ammo cart.

Day 3: Build Blacksmith. Narxes gets advanced enlightenment from learning stone and heads back towards home. We'll get the golems tomorrow and I want someone there to shuttle. Nur dumps everything to Jhora who then goes for the dancers guarding the windmill losing 3 gargs. Nur takes over and flags the sawmill with no losses.

Day 4: Build Golem Forge. Narxes reaches town, buys golems and heads out. Nur transfers troops to Jhora and moves into place for a short chain after grabbing the windmill goodies. Jhora takes out the overseers guarding the thieves den but can't quite reach the loot. Next turn.

Day 5: Build Mage Guild. I don't want to wait too long to start generating some gold, so while I'd like to wait on the guild a bit, I need it to open up the town hall. So we snag some ore from the campfire and build. Narxes brings golems to Nur who gets the campfire and brings troops to Jhora. Jhora gets the chest and takes gold to insure the Town Hall tomorrow. Hmmm...stables or prison. There's still a few days left in this week, I think we'll try the stables first. 4 garg losses and levels up for advanced luck. Jhora hits the magic well before hitting the zombies tomorrow.

Day 6: Build Town Hall. Narxes hits the flag then grabs a gold pile. Nur grabs some wood then hits the stables & knowledge crystal. Jhora hits planetarium and then goes for Zombies and wins with no losses. Grabs the armor and frees Maeve. Maeve makes a beeline for the southern town hitting the powerups along the way that aren't out of reach.

Day 7: Build Marketplace. Narxes heads for home for day 1 shuttling. Nur hits some buffs and grabs loose goodies. Maeve continues south. She should hit the second academy by tomorrow. Jhora gets the +1 knowledge buff, flags the gargs and hits the merc camp too. Tomorrow we head underground.

Day 8: Build Arcane forge. Maeve takes the second academy town with several losses but unimportant ones. She'll now head back north hitting all the powerups along the way. Nur hits the stables and considers heading south for the gargs...but I'll need the gold for a bit yet so she instead hits the windmill for 3 sulfur and moves into place for a chain if needed. Narxes makes it to town and stands her ground for now. Jhora clears the demons & zombies with no losses then heads underground for the ore pit which she liberates with 6 gremlin losses. One ore pile later and I've got the resources for the arcane forge which was the cheapest route to the city hall tomorrow.

Day 9: Build Marketplace. Maeve continues moving north. Seeing how low my gold reserves are, I'm going to have to forgo a build tomorrow it looks like. Maeve and Nur head towards the underground area and they'll get a few gold stashes tomorrow. The only nearby chests that Jhora could go for are the ones guarded by the hoard of cerberi...8 mana left and unupgraded troops. I don't think so. Jhora heads north to get mines instead. Narxes has abandoned plans of a troop chain until after the hall is built (and possibly after).

Day 10: Build nothing. Jhora continues north and sees a hoard of archers guarding a witch hut. She loses 12 gremlins but low and behold...resourcefulness. :O) She then grabs advanced light from the witch hut (having played before saves me the trouble of using a scout to check the hut) and continues north. Seeing a hoard of obsidian gargs guarding the gem mine I pause. 5 mana left. Nope. Let's get a few more troops first. She heads towards the golem forge.

Day 11: Build City Hall. I grab some golems from the forge and take on the gargoyles. I finally lost my lone mage, 4 gargs and 1 golem. The lack of spell points hurt in this one. 12 just wasn't enough. Everyone else continues their paths.

Day 12: Build nothing. Jhora continues south and finds the crystal mine. Nothing else of interest.

Day 13: Build Altar of Wishes. Jhora takes on the archers guarding the crystal mine. Lost 10 gremlins and my lone remaining gargoyle. Jhora continues south. Nur heads towards the underground. Maeve stops just short of the learning stone. She'll make it to the garrison for the start of the week to leverage recruitment.

Day 14: Build Mage Guild level 2. I wanted to hold off on the guild, but I want the treasure cave to help with the income problem. Jhora hits the learning stone and dumps her troops off to Nur who came underground and headed due south. Nur will clear out the last two mines while Jhora picks up the loose resources with her boost. Maeve heads to the garrison after getting benediction.

Day 15: Build Treasure Cave. Narxes hits the windmill for more sulfur then continues south. Nur goes for the zombies guarding the sulfur dune. Nur takes no losses and picks up Archery. She heads north to the mercury mine. Jhora grabs the loot then heads north too.

Day 16: Build Mage Tower. Nur attacks the obsidian gargoyles and loses 8 golems. Ouch. Before heading back above ground, Nur is going to grab light magic and the remaining golems. Jhora grabs the loot and heads home. Narxes is running south hitting powerups. We see our first glimpse of an enemy hero. Blue is running around his far eastern area.

Day 17: Build Library. Jhora grabs some loot and heads north towards home. Narxes hits the thieves guild and continues her "buff tour" as JJ called it. :O) I love that phrase, I see myself using that one quite a bit. *grin*. Nur nearly makes it to the hut. With slightly over 4000 gold and pulling in 3000 per day I'll skip a build tomorrow so I can get the capitol on day 19.

Day 18: Build nothing. Nur gets light and stops at the golem forge. I can't buy if I want to get the Capitol tomorrow. Everybody else continues.

Day 19: Build Capitol. Okay, my finances are finally under control. Only took nearly THREE freakin' weeks. God I hate this map. Narxes hits a learning stone for expert enlightenment (I'd kinda like scholar making her a perfect troop/spell transport hero). Jhora hits the boosts and goes for firetrap...barely missing it. Nur stares around at the cavern walls daydreaming about a REAL map to explore.

Day 20: Build Fort. I thought about skipping a day and getting the silver pavilion on day 21 but that'd limit all my other troops for this week. This route gets me to the citadel by the end of the week. Jhora picks up fire trap and heads north to the knowledge crystal before heading into town. Narxes is heading towards the underground to get light & the learning stone. Nur...has now switched to fantasizing about Havez in a tank top and a thong.

Day 21: Build Citadel. Jhora hits the +1 crystal and slips into town. *faints from the shock* Oh my god...my spell book looks so odd. It's got something in it other than eldritch arrow and MotW. LOL. Well, tomorrow will begin my assault on clearing out the remainder of my above ground area. Nur will pick up the golems and head out. Then we'll start some chains to get the troops to town and upgrade them. While I'd love to get the rakshasa's and colossi and castle rolling in, I think I've got to get grems/golems upgraded first. Losing them in these next battles will devastate me when it comes time to head out to sea.

Day 22: Build Mage guild level 3 and tavern. Nur buys out the golems and heads for the surface. Narxes misses out and gets Arcane intuition. Jhora, with very little gold left, decides against buying troops and instead grabs the 5 archers and 2 footmen that Maeve had in the garrison and takes on the ˜lots' of blood furies to the left of the castle. Losing 1 footman and 4 archers. Nice. I hate standing idle. She also had a rather tough decision on a level up. Spoils of war, Master of Ice, Luck or Basic War Machines. I'd love war machines, but it's getting late in the game to get it leveled enough to do much good. Besides, I've already got light so resurrection is a definite possibility. I take Spoils of War in the hopes that it'll help my ore situation. Getting the +1 speed boots along with some wood & gold. Seeing myself struggle for gold I decide it might be a good idea to get some gold out of the second town. So a cheap build of the tavern will get me on my way to the town hall there.

Day 23: Build Gremlin Manufactory. I had to trade a bit of crystal for the one ore needed, but I don't want to be losing any golems in these upcoming battles. So Jhora buys all the grems and about half of the golems and heads for the Arena. Losing 6 gremlins in the process. Narxes nears the hut and Nur makes it above ground.

Day 24: Build nothing. Nur grabs 70 gargs from the dwelling and heads north. Jhora grabs the remaining golems from town and heads south. We'll meet up at the familiars then take out the elves.

Day 25: Build nothing. Narxes takes light and reaches the now empty golem forge. Nur hits the stables and gives all troops/artis to Jhora. Jhora takes on the familiars and loses 1 golem. Upon leveling up I see basic enlightenment, advanced destruction, master of ice and abjuration. Not having deflect or endurance I take master of Ice. Having both ice spells AND an ice boosting arti will be a nice combo for the battles to come. I pick up an extra 99 gold from spoils and just miss out on a wood/ore. Barely. Maeve comes out partially for a quick chain to upgrade my old grems.

Day 26: Build Silver Pavilion. Crunching the numbers I see that I'll need 20 more ore in order to build the pavilion, coliseum and castle by the end of the week. While I've got available for trading (expendable resources) 6 wood, 8 sulfur & gems, 22 merc & 23 crystal. So, I dump some wood, most of the merc & sulfur and I get my 20 ore. Wow, that freakin' HURT to do. But with one chest nearby I should be fine (I'm technically about 800 gold short too...but if it's an arti I can always trade a bit more for the last 800). Jhora heads towards the hoard of elves guarding the 2 chests & arti. I take them on with 7 single stacks of gargoyles and circle of winter. I lose 3. Nice. Maeve takes the remaining troops to town to upgrade the gremlins and golems (that was my original thought but now I'm going for the other 3 buildings so I'll only be upgrading the grems).

Day 27: Build Castle. Jhora takes the experience and levels up to get mass haste and mass righteous might. Too hard to pass up. Nur upgrades the grems and heads back out. Jhora meanwhile heads to the windmill. Hopefully resourcefulness will give me a nice boost to the mill.

Day 28: Build Coliseum. Jhora hits the mill and grabs SEVEN ore! Nice. I'd miscalculated earlier too. I was going to be a bit short of the ore. That puts me over the top for sure. Gotta love resourcefulness. It's saved my butt numerous times. But on this map...whew. Those 3 builds were just flat out painful to make. After building them I'm left with 91 gold, 1 ore & wood, 4 merc...and that's it. I had to lose ALL my gems, sulfur & crystals. Yikes. However, we do have all the mines and a nice cache down near the second town. So I should be fine for making mini's before I head out to sea. Jhora, after looting the mill *grin*, hits the 2 boosters before heading back to the mill for day 29. Nur continues south to bring the troops to Jhora (who still has only a couple of gargs after the elf battle). Everybody else stays put.

Day 29: (day 1 month 2): LOL. This map is just not made for Academy-training & using mini's. Eurina (green) just busted through my bottom garrison and grabbed most of the stuff I hadn't gotten yet in the south (she's obviously got logistics & boots...TONS of movement). With all that trading going on yesterday I didn't see her land (trying to watch a game at the same time). Sad, just sad. Well, she's loaded. Several dragons, lots of deep hydras, pack of matriarchs, and lots/hoards of the others (upgraded too). She's several levels higher than me too. While I might not be able to win the battle, I'll win the war even after crippling myself so badly at the marketplace. It'll just take a LONG time now. Heck, even if I had noticed her land it wouldn't have made any difference. I did the trade back on the 26th. Once that was done, I was committed. From there, Eurina made a beeline for me I think. With her movement, there's no way I can catch her before she takes my southern town and all my left over resources. None. Talk about a quick way to slow my development. Hahaha.

From what I can see, I didn't do too much different from JJ other than the build order and the fact that I really didn't chain very often (once in fact). While I'm certain that I'd still win the map rather easily, I'm ready to play a different map now. I can only play one over and over again so many times. No matter HOW it's played, it still will remain as a bad example of early mini-artifact usage and a bad example of Academy play in general. ˜Nuff said.