TMO w/ 2.2 patch bug(s) explained?

[paulhager]

In looking around for a workable 600' depth gauge (I found only one), I discovered that I can no longer access the the area that shows the captain's cabin. Instead, I got a view of the ocean below the waterline, minus the sub. I decided to return to the menu and restore from the same save. When I did so, I had lost all map markings! This time I exited the game completely, restarted, and then restored. Everything was back to normal.

I'm pretty sure that what happened with the abortive Coral Sea engagements was that, out of habit, I hit the external camera key to watch torpedo impact and, since the key was disabled, it did something to how the game was stored in RAM. Since by going to menu, you haven't completely exited, there is some sort of information retained - probably to allow for a faster load time. Screwing up certain key strokes primes the game for this odd behavior and ends up corrupting future saves.

I've no doubt that if I'd have saved the game after the bad keystroke, I'd have set myself up for another corrupted save.

The save problem has always been tied to whether or not one has completely exited from the game. If one exits to menu, keeps the game running, and then restores, I've never seen a problem. However, if a save is corrupted in that process, you exit from the game and THEN restore, you're toast.

In the future, if I hit the wrong key, no matter the situation, I'll exit from the game and restore from the most recent save.

[paulhager]

In looking around for a workable 600' depth gauge (I found only one), I discovered that I can no longer access the the area that shows the captain's cabin. Instead, I got a view of the ocean below the waterline, minus the sub. I decided to return to the menu and restore from the same save. When I did so, I had lost all map markings! This time I exited the game completely, restarted, and then restored. Everything was back to normal.

I'm pretty sure that what happened with the abortive Coral Sea engagements was that, out of habit, I hit the external camera key to watch torpedo impact and, since the key was disabled, it did something to how the game was stored in RAM. Since by going to menu, you haven't completely exited, there is some sort of information retained - probably to allow for a faster load time. Screwing up certain key strokes primes the game for this odd behavior and ends up corrupting future saves.

I've no doubt that if I'd have saved the game after the bad keystroke, I'd have set myself up for another corrupted save.

The save problem has always been tied to whether or not one has completely exited from the game. If one exits to menu, keeps the game running, and then restores, I've never seen a problem. However, if a save is corrupted in that process, you exit from the game and THEN restore, you're toast.

In the future, if I hit the wrong key, no matter the situation, I'll exit from the game and restore from the most recent save.

[MWolfe1963]

Duci got rid of the Captain's Quarters, seems I read it in the support file, but honestly I haven't looked, I never go in there. I think he was working on a updated one more like fleetboats.

For me, the external cam never gives me a problem deactivated or not with save games or any other issue. If it's deactivated in game options, I hit it, it's just a dead tab and I constantly save and reload without exiting.

If you're in a Gato, it doe's have 3 working 600ft dials, if you're not seeing those I post SS's of, something is wrong. Is it possible you have another mod that's effecting this or some file is broken? If indeed you are missing these, I would say whatever is causing that is the problem, not the cam.

Think you know the radar mod is part of 2.2, but if you install it over 2.2 it would nerf the dials, only thing I can think of.

I do agree on the principle that a total game restart often will load a save correctly when it's corrupted, but that isn't the norm, the issue is what's corrupting the save.

I also think too many save files become an issue. I think if too many get saved, since all are going to the same overall file, pieces get fragmented. For sure, it's important to delete all saved games if you change, they have no use anyway then.

I once use to have strange issues when changing mods, etc, but anytime I change a supermod, I install it over a fresh install of SH and always keep another fresh clean mods folder of all my other mods and use those. I think when you constantly activate and deactivate mods over the same SH4 install problems eventually occur.

[jldjs]

Paulhager: I use TMO 2.1 and RSRD but do not use realistic torps so I don't have the dud issue as you describe. But I have had the very same experience as you with disappearing map markings, daylight when it should be night, CTD on reloading some saves, et al. But, I don't think it is related to TMO, at least not TMO 2.1. I have resolved all of these issues without changing how I save, when I save, how often I save (so far) by going back to a clean stock 1.5, and modding up again. That being said, I still think there is connection (somehow) to how many total saves during a mission are taken. I have restarted with a clean copy modded to TMO 2.1/RSRD, starting Apr '42, diverted to Coral Sea battle (still couldn't find the IJN TFs), went on to mission in S China Sea, completed, on to next mission, completed and am now on third mission without any problems (so far). I hope you are on to something though and look forward to more of your posts.

[jldjs]

Curses. Two of my last saves just CTD. Both saves were taken with nothing else around. I restarted from the good save prior to these two retraced the same route and took two saves very close to where/when the two that failed and both of these saves now work! Go figure!

[paulhager]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MWolfe1963:
Duci got rid of the Captain's Quarters, seems I read it in the support file, but honestly I haven't looked, I never go in there. I think he was working on a updated one more like fleetboats. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a big deal for me but hitting that key may have resulted in the map screw-up.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
For me, the external cam never gives me a problem deactivated or not with save games or any other issue. If it's deactivated in game options, I hit it, it's just a dead tab and I constantly save and reload without exiting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I know you don't exit. However, I often end up exiting for various reasons (this Spring-Summer a bunch of weather-related shutdowns). I could generally count on no crashes when restoring after an exit as long as I avoided saving in the presence of a large number of ships/aircraft. Things appear to have gotten worse - it may relate to hitting certain keys though I haven't definitively established that.

In any case, I use my computer for lots of other things and I've heard that minimizing SH and running other programs is worse for creating various problems. It's generally not worth it to me to tie up the computer so that I can't use email, post, write, etc.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
If you're in a Gato, it doe's have 3 working 600ft dials, if you're not seeing those I post SS's of, something is wrong. Is it possible you have another mod that's effecting this or some file is broken? If indeed you are missing these, I would say whatever is causing that is the problem, not the cam.

Think you know the radar mod is part of 2.2, but if you install it over 2.2 it would nerf the dials, only thing I can think of.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Which radar mod? Do you mean the 3D TDC mod is now part of TMO 2.2? Or is this some other radar mod? Could it be the "IJN_Radar_Fix_for_TMO2"? If so, that means I can remove this mod.

I do recall that the 3D TDC did "nerf" the dials in earlier versions.

As for diving, to be clear, you are saying that in a Gato, if you hit "D" the sub will just keep diving until it hits crush depth and implodes? I know that will happen in a Balao. I'm pretty sure it used to happed with the Gato before this version of TMO.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I do agree on the principle that a total game restart often will load a save correctly when it's corrupted, but that isn't the norm, the issue is what's corrupting the save.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I said above, I think the corruption can come about from a mismatch between what is being kept in local RAM and what is loaded. That actually sets up the corrupted save at a later time.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I also think too many save files become an issue. I think if too many get saved, since all are going to the same overall file, pieces get fragmented. For sure, it's important to delete all saved games if you change, they have no use anyway then. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand this. A save appears to be a bunch of files in a discrete directory. I assume that when a file is deleted, the directory and every file in it is deleted. Since I name files based on the game date and time they were saved, they'll have unique names/designations through the game. Beyond that, since I only keep the 5 most recent, I'm continually deleting older saves. I don't see how anything can be overwritten unless the directories/saves are not deleted. I haven't observed that.

What was happening with this most recent problem was saves that worked after I had exited and restored suddenly ceased working altogether. I've never seen that happen before.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I once use to have strange issues when changing mods, etc, but anytime I change a supermod, I install it over a fresh install of SH and always keep another fresh clean mods folder of all my other mods and use those. I think when you constantly activate and deactivate mods over the same SH4 install problems eventually occur. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I haven't observed those kinds of problems until 2.2 came along.

I successfully completed a second patrol - this time not only did I follow my normal rules for saving but I also took special pains not to press any of the keys that might be problematic. I once got the day-night switch/loss of map marks problem. I immediately exited and restored from the previous save point. That allieviated the problem for the remainder of the patrol.

[paulhager]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by jldjs:
Curses. Two of my last saves just CTD. Both saves were taken with nothing else around. I restarted from the good save prior to these two retraced the same route and took two saves very close to where/when the two that failed and both of these saves now work! Go figure! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you useing the TMO 2.2 patch?

[jldjs]

No, that's why have been posting here. I am using TMO 2.1 so "it" isn't unique to 2.2!
Whatever is causing the bad saves problem has been around for my play for past 5 months. I still have a game version using TMO 2 Beta with RSRD that has none of the save problems.

[MWolfe1963]

Paul,

The 3D radar mod is part of 2.2. Before if you used the mod it nerfed the dials, but Duci corrected that and the dials now work with it. If you're running it, you may be causing some type of conflict with it. Only issue that remains is you still have to spin sonar with hotkets, cursor is dead there.

I don't see how clicking any dead tab or item would cause a problem. Clicking on the now dead captians door shouldn't be an issue. If a item is dead, no amount of clicking on it should be an issue. My last two patrols I clicked on every dead item, key and tab numerous times with no issue and I can't find one complaint in the TMO thread regarding this.

The way you're doing your saves sounds good. Still, if you update a mod, your old saves will still show in the load screen. I would delete any save not created under your most recent mod set up. All your saved files do go to the same dir file, If you have a lot of saves the dir file gets loaded. I don't think this is your issue and seems you delete most of yours. Some suggest if you have a lot of saves in you dir. sav file it can become fragmented.

Yep, I can hit the D key with any boat and head for the deeps until I hit A to level. I do this anyway, rather than using the dials.

Always best to open and read the Documentation file everytime TMO is updated, that way you can get a complete list of all changes.

I don't save a lot, but do save and restore without exiting all the time, I alt tab out a lot, which only creates the CO2 bug. Nerf the radar mod.

Are you running any other mods, if so list them.

It's still possible you have a fubar file. I'm Always using many mods and trying others, contantly backing them out and activating them.
It's rare, but sometimes in this process somehow a file gets broken. The game may play fine until that broken line comes into play, then boom.

[paulhager]

I just removed "3D TDC and Radar Range Unit v1.02". There were minor changes in the control room. The big change when double clicking the radar icon was that what I assume was the conning tower could be seen. There was NO 3D TDC, though the radar range unit part was in evidence.

So, it appears that half of the 3D TDC mod may be present, not the whole thing. I hope that 2.2 in using part of the 3D TDC mod hasn't screwed everything up for those of us who use the mod. The dud rate on 2.1 is so bad I consider it unplayable.

One other question, just to make sure. Above I asked if the "IJN_Radar_Fix_for_TMO2" was part of 2.2. You didn't say yes or no.

[paulhager]

ADDENDUM: According to the documentation for 2.2 (which I finally checked):
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
2. Added 3d TDC and Radar Ranging Unit by Nisgesis to conning tower for the Gato interior model.. For details of its operation, see this thread: ( http://www.subsim.com/radioroo...wthread.php?t=170944 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=170944) )

3. I moved helmsman back to control room and made a unique graph file for this interior to make the helmsman respond to throttle orders. (albeit with only a yes sir). I did this move to save on system resources due to the addition the 3d TDC and Radar Ranging Unit in the conning tower.

NOTE: The clickable depth gauge that enables you to dive below 450 feet is now located in the
control room, and is no longer located in the conning tower.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He claims the unit is there but the TDC part can't be accessed. It's possible to see the TDC in the conning tower but only at an angle. BTW, have you ever used the 3D TDC part of the Mod - have you ever actually accessed it?

Also, reading this indicates only 1 gauge, not 3 - how did you end up with 3? The phrase, "...that enables you to dive below 450 feet..." may simply be imprecise wording or it may mean exactly what it says, you are only allowed to dive below 450 by using the gauge, not the keyboard "D". Again, that's the behavior I've observed in the Gato.

I don't doubt what you say about the behavior you've observed with your Mod setup, which is so different from my experience. But I'm damned if I can explain it.

Incidentally, here are the Mods I have installed:

http://i1084.photobucket.com/albums/j408/paulhager/My-Mods.jpg

Removing the 3D TDC doesn't make the unit accessible.

[MWolfe1963]

I have the complete radar mod, works and looks the same for me.

I still use the IJN radar fix by tater, so keep that for RSRD over TMO.

I think Duci is referring to the one guage that use to be in the tower is the control room. I said 3 worked, but only two 600 gauges work, center at planes station and left rear desk, both in control room.

http://i651.photobucket.com/albums/uu235/Armistead1424/SH4Img2011-07-29_213950_860.jpg

[Mescator]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by paulhager:
BTW, have you ever used the 3D TDC part of the Mod - have you ever actually accessed it?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did all the time yeah. Actually used it to input virtually all of my targeting information.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by paulhager:
As I said above, I think the corruption can come about from a mismatch between what is being kept in local RAM and what is loaded. That actually sets up the corrupted save at a later time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you mean by this? When a game is loaded, relevant files for it's runtime are stored in the RAM.

[MWolfe1963]

Also, I do take advantage of the radar mod and use it, works the same as it did before at both stations.

[paulhager]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mescator:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by paulhager:
BTW, have you ever used the 3D TDC part of the Mod - have you ever actually accessed it?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did all the time yeah. Actually used it to input virtually all of my targeting information.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by paulhager:
As I said above, I think the corruption can come about from a mismatch between what is being kept in local RAM and what is loaded. That actually sets up the corrupted save at a later time. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you mean by this? When a game is loaded, relevant files for it's runtime are stored in the RAM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm talking about the difference in behavior when one exits and goes to the menu versus exiting and returning to Windows. In the former case, a file will always restore. In the latter case, the same file will cause a CTD. I'm suggesting there is some information that is being retained in RAM after exiting the Sim but not the game.

The described behavior means that one cannot reliably test a saved game by exiting to the menu.

[paulhager]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MWolfe1963:
Also, I do take advantage of the radar mod and use it, works the same as it did before at both stations. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't see the TDC from the angle you show in your screen shot. Beyond that what keys do you use to access it?

I've already tried removing the 3D TDC Mod, to no effect. The only other Mod I might remove would be Max Optics.

Recall, that when I played the U-boat career, I couldn't get the German TDC to work. I went so far as to completely eliminate TMO, which didn't help. I no longer remember all of the various things I tried.

One thing that may differ for me is that I downloaded the U-boat add-on. I have the disk for the main game.

[paulhager]

OK, I finally solved the mystery.

I didn't realize that I could use the arrow keys to move around inside the control room/conning tower. I tried this and was able to zoom in on the TDC and work it.

I don't think I've ever used the arrow keys in this way other than in SH5. Or maybe I did back when I first got SH4 and then during the multi-year hiatus in playing the game I forgot moving around the room was possible was possible.

It also appears that if I set up conning tower POV as right in front of the TDC with the TDC filling the screen, when I return to the conning tower, that is the default POV. Without that, the TDC would still be too much of a pain to use because it would take way too much time to access it in tactical situations.

Now, as to whether deactivating the separate 3D TDC will ameliorate any other bugs, I can't say.

[WernherVonTrapp]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by paulhager:
OK, I finally solved the mystery.

I didn't realize that I could use the arrow keys to move around inside the control room/conning tower. I tried this and was able to zoom in on the TDC and work it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>Don't feel bad. I use them so infrequently that sometimes I forget the capability even exits. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif