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Elodin
10-02-2007, 11:50 AM
I would like to determine what community thinks about artificer skill in relation to heroic difficulty.

Elodin
10-02-2007, 11:50 AM
I would like to determine what community thinks about artificer skill in relation to heroic difficulty.

nevermindspy
10-02-2007, 12:09 PM
Is this poll too long ?
YES
Did i answer all the questions ?
Amazingly YES!
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


And on response to the poll , Yes this skill can be problematic but is probably the best recial skill there is , So maybe a change could benifit but its certainly not a cause for any unbalance (well maybe its a little overpowered ,maybe )

Jolly-Joker
10-02-2007, 12:19 PM
I don't understand the poll. Most questions are for HEROIC difficulty. HEROIC is NOT for the casual gamer - that's why there are different difficulty levels. HEROIC is for people who like a challenge. It MUST be difficult since it is the highest difficulty and it should be a challenge even for the best players. Therefore, if you have a problem to use a very powerful asset on highest diff level that comes with the trade. And the artificer skill IS very powerful. I mean, with a knowledge of EIGHT (8) you can make a double arti giving you +3 attack and +3 defense for something like 15 Crystal 10 Wood and 5 Ore. That's SIX hero levels in attack and defense. SIX. It SHOULD be difficult to use.

Elodin
10-02-2007, 01:25 PM
I asked about heroic difficulty because that is the difficulty I always play.

I was curious if others thought artificer was easier or harder to use than the other racial abilities within the first weeks of play and how powerful it is compared to other racial specials early.

For example, necromancy is very powerful skill. Is it harder to use on heroic than on normal? How about gating? It is powerful. Is it harder to use on heroic than on normal? Should all factions be able to use their racial skills with roughly same degree of difficulty?

Pitsu
10-02-2007, 01:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
I mean, with a knowledge of EIGHT (8) you can make a double arti giving you +3 attack and +3 defense for something like 15 Crystal 10 Wood and 5 Ore. That's SIX hero levels in attack and defense. SIX. It SHOULD be difficult to use. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hero attack and defense apply to army, miniarty to a single stack. For a full 7 stack army these "6 levels" would cost 105 crystals, 70 wood and 35 ore.

Inferno015
10-02-2007, 01:47 PM
I am happy you bothered to ask about Heroic difficulty. Easy and NOrmal modes are just no fair. I am guessing this is all done in proving a points to poor old Chuckles, who struggles so hard to prove a point to you...well this poll certainly cleared up a few things. In the first 1-2 weeks, you should NOT count on using Artificer to frequently. Racial buildings tend be be expensive, and I'm assuming the worst in saying you might not get all the resources you need.

Weeks 3-4, more frequent. If you are good, then really frequent. Espcially if you have a lot of resources.

Now the thing about the larger maps make it harder is intersting. It depends. If you have Town Portal, then think the situation through, and you got it good. If no Town POrtal, and you are on the other side of the map, well then, you can just forget Artificer.

Personally, I win on Heroic without using Artificer too much. It seems like a little bonus to me. You know, something that makes the final battle a little easier. Like I know I'm going to win, so I'm just going to spend the rest of my resources on making my units stronger.

The bonuses are about as good as the Blood Rage bonuses for the most part, so it is an interseting concept. Do you want to play as a faction with bonuses throughout battle or in general? In general of course means you have to way from a little to a lot of money.

Using aritficer does not mean getting the most expensive stuff, some of the artifacts are really cheap. In some other forum, Chuckles mentioned a quick-win strategy that involves artificer. Hey, if it works, you should acknowledge it.

Does artificer need a change? Tell me what you have in mind by change and I'll tell you if I agree. I think its not so bad right now, but hey, you might just change my mind.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-02-2007, 02:36 PM
Just so you know....

1. No. In general, it doesn't get used in the first 2 weeks. Sometimes, but rarely.

2. Yes. The other racials don't get used much in the first 2 weeks either. Necromancy and gating excluded.

3. No. You plan ahead and use resources accordingly. And as I said, first 2 weeks...not really used generally.

4. No. It's harder to use at any stage of the game. Which is how I personally like it. It's the thinking man's faction. It requires more thought and planning to use effectively.

5. Yes.

6. Yes. None of the racials are particularly powerful in the first month (excepting necro and inferno again).

7. No. Planning ahead yet again.

8. No, it's harder...every week every month. Once you get the hang of it, it gets easier, but it'll always be more difficult. And that's fine. It's still very potent if used correctly.

9. Yes. It always makes things more difficult to manage for ALL factions the bigger the map is. But many things can ease that burden too.

10. Yes. I like the proposed upgrades to it that we've already heard from Nival. I'm still hoping that level 1-3 artis' created with 1 knowledge will automatically upgrade when given to a high-level hero. Makes summon creatures MUCH more useful as a transportation tool.

11. I chose every 2 weeks, but that question's a bit too vague. It completely depends upon the map, the layout and many other factors. Early on (first month or so), I return every few weeks to learn spells, upgrade troops and build artis. But I certainly don't run back to town ONLY for artifact building.



I'd suggest that you look at how much easier it is to use on easier difficulties too. And how much more effective it is at higher levels too, and later times in the game.

But this wasn't the original topic. It was the fact that you said it couldn't be used until the late stages of the game and on resource rich maps only. It was never about "effective" use at a particular time. Although I think I proved that not only could it be used earlier than you thought, but that it could be used effectively too. The ball is totally in your court. The only thing left to do is for you to actually try using it earlier. NOT going for the upper level mage guilds early like you did in that play-by-play that you did. It's all about trying out different strategies.

Elodin
10-02-2007, 07:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
The only thing left to do is for you to actually try using it earlier. NOT going for the upper level mage guilds early like you did in that play-by-play that you did. It's all about trying out different strategies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is it more beneficial for a wizard to know higher level spells or to have a -1 level 1 crushing artifact on his gremlins?

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-02-2007, 07:47 PM
*Elodin returns chuck's serve with a smashing forehand*

Fair enough retort. But is it more beneficial to use your resources to build your town's dwellings, or build a mage guild to level 5 when you don't even have the spell school expertise to USE those spells? Or do you pick a spell school in the HOPES that you'll get spells that fit it? My way lets you develop your town first, find out some of your spells along the way, and while you're building you can use some of those resources not currently in use for hero advancement. I can win either way. The point was that you were saying that MY WAY wouldn't work.

*Chuck slams a return volley back at Elodin's backhand* :O)

Elodin
10-02-2007, 09:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
*Elodin returns chuck's serve with a smashing forehand*

Fair enough retort. But is it more beneficial to use your resources to build your town's dwellings, or build a mage guild to level 5 when you don't even have the spell school expertise to USE those spells? Or do you pick a spell school in the HOPES that you'll get spells that fit it? My way lets you develop your town first, find out some of your spells along the way, and while you're building you can use some of those resources not currently in use for hero advancement. I can win either way. The point was that you were saying that MY WAY wouldn't work.

*Chuck slams a return volley back at Elodin's backhand* :O) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My emphasis has been does making month one artifacts have significany effect.

To be fair, I see how sometimes you may be able to "loan" a miniartifact on occasion, but that would preclude building mage guild level, which is I think more significant.

Dwellings are priority of course, but wizard also need mage guild levels. Of course some maps may have weak neutrals and you don't need guild levels quite so early (other than planning purposes)and some wizards like Havez have war machines to creep with

I prefer to know what is in guild before taking second magic school. Wizard has 15% chance to learn summoning so that can be difficult to avoid althouh with new changes to summoning school I will try at all costs to avoid summoning (unless I see the good spells first) since it has been badly nerfed for wizard.

Summoning:

Level1: No changes

Level 2: Raise Dead, Wasp Swarm, Arcane Crystal
Wasp Swarm was staple spell and went well with MOTW. Arcane Crystal can't be cast with MOTW and is less useful. Now only 1/3 chance for wasp swarm.

Level 3: Earthquake, Phantom Forces, Blade Barrier (new)

Again, staple of Phantom Forces is less likely. Blade Barrier can't be used with MOTW and is less useful.

Level 4:Summon Elementals, Summon Hive(new), Firewall was given to Destruction as level 3 spell. Summon Hive has only 100 hit points at expert level.

Level 5:: No changes

H5forem
10-03-2007, 12:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Should anything be changed to make the artificer skill more convient to use? If so, what would you suggest? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that the cost in resources of MA's need to be acording to the level of Knowledge. Higher power (knowledge) higher cost of "minies"

So it will be cheap at the begining when your heroe have low Knowledge and MA's are weak, and you urge for resurces, but expensive later when your heroe have a lot of knowledge and the need for resources is not so important.

something like this...

ex: Careful snake Orb of Haste (attack, defense, initiative)

10 Knowledge

5 wood
7 sulfur
3 ore
7 mercury
7 crystal

20 Knowledge

10 wood
15 sulfur
5 ore
15 mercury
15 crystal

(same as it is now)

30 Knowledge

20 wood
30 sulfur
10 ore
30 mercury
30 crystal

40 Knowledge

40 wood
60 sulfur
20 ore
60 mercury
60 crystal

Jolly-Joker
10-03-2007, 12:33 AM
You are wrong yet again.
Level 2:
Basically spoken, Raise Dead is more worse than Wasp Swarm is good. Raise Dead will only be of use in a survival fight, but not in any normal fight. It's no creeping spell or if it is, than only once because Raise Dead means you will have losses. It might be a different thing for other towns, but Raise Dead can't even raise the body guards except Djinns and you won't use Djinn as expendable bodyguards.
So you can safely say, at the time you get your level 2 spells for a Wizard at least Raise Dead is useless and will be so for a very long time - and if later on no better spells are available something went wrong.
Arcane Crystal adds what is probably the most interesting and original spell with a lot of uses, ESPECIALLY for Wizards. I don't know whether you know how the spell is working: You can cast the Crystal at whatever empty square you like, and it has 1 HP. If it is hit it explodes with the following damage effect for ALL ADJACENT units:
damage = [SummoningLevel*20+40+(8+SumLev*4)*Power]. So a Wizard with Power 4 and Advanced Summoning will do [2*20+40+(8+2*4)*4] = 144 damage to all adjacent units. The only "snag" is, you must trigger the bomb which means, since it has 1 HP, you have to split off single Gremlins. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
That spell is begging for creative use and is a great addition and it reduces the chance to get Raise Dead.
Level 3:
Blade Barrier is a 3-square spell like Firewall that will work like a 100% Fireshield for melee attackers and absorb 75% of ranged and magic damage. The spell should have it's uses - more so than Earthquake http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
So this is the same case than level 2. IF you go the magic way EARLY with a Summoning Wizard you have a better chance you get a spell you can actually use.
Level 4:
The Hive is magically immune, so if you want to kill it you have to attack it with a unit. Of course this is (another) spell that is useless against undead which is a setback. Tactically, though, this may allow double Wasp Swarm castings which might prove devastating.

The bottom line is very positive.

Jolly-Joker
10-03-2007, 12:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by H5forem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Should anything be changed to make the artificer skill more convient to use? If so, what would you suggest? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that the cost in resources of MA's need to be acording to the level of Knowledge. Higher power (knowledge) higher cost of "minies"

So it will be cheap at the begining when your heroe have low Knowledge and MA's are weak, and you urge for resurces, but expensive later when your heroe have a lot of knowledge and the need for resources is not so important.

something like this...

ex: Careful snake Orb of Haste (attack, defense, initiative)

10 Knowledge

5 wood
7 sulfur
3 ore
7 mercury
7 crystal

20 Knowledge

10 wood
15 sulfur
5 ore
15 mercury
15 crystal

(same as it is now)

30 Knowledge

20 wood
30 sulfur
10 ore
30 mercury
30 crystal

40 Knowledge

40 wood
60 sulfur
20 ore
60 mercury
60 crystal </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What good would that be for? You'd get a penalty for having high knowledge. Do cost spells more mana when you cast them with more Power? Like 1 Mana for each point of Power? Would that be a good idea? Nope. Is it a good idea here? Nope.

H5forem
10-03-2007, 01:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
What good would that be for? You'd get a penalty for having high knowledge. Do cost spells more mana when you cast them with more Power? Like 1 Mana for each point of Power? Would that be a good idea? Nope. Is it a good idea here? Nope. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The idea is if you have a weak heroe, for "minies" to cost less resources... if you play a map where you can reach up to 30 - 40 Knowledge resources are not that important http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Actualy if you analyse that a bit, you have to reach 20 Knowledge or so to have the same cost as now... so at the begining (5 - 10 K) you will pay less resources (when you need resources more) to make a "mini"

So I really don't think is such a bad idea http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Jolly-Joker
10-03-2007, 01:26 AM
Why should something cost "less in the beginning"? Are spells cheaper in the beginning? You could argue this for the Warlock as well: My racial is difficult to use because with Empowered Spells, which IS after all my racial, I can't really make use of spells because of my low Knowledge; spells should be cheaper in the beginning.
Please keep in mind that you are LEASING the artifact resources only AND that you are allowed to use them up for the Resurrection of units - your suggestion would mean that it would be extremely cheap in the beginning to resurrect units - which would essentially the same as differing mana costs for spells.

H5forem
10-03-2007, 01:37 AM
I'm waiting for another Idea to make somme use in the first weeks of the Artificier skill on Heroic

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif

Jolly-Joker
10-03-2007, 01:57 AM
How about just playing and doing it?

Elodin
10-03-2007, 02:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
You are wrong yet again.
Level 2:
Basically spoken, Raise Dead is more worse than Wasp Swarm is good. Raise Dead will only be of use in a survival fight, but not in any normal fight. It's no creeping spell or if it is, than only once because Raise Dead means you will have losses. It might be a different thing for other towns, but Raise Dead can't even raise the body guards except Djinns and you won't use Djinn as expendable bodyguards.
So you can safely say, at the time you get your level 2 spells for a Wizard at least Raise Dead is useless and will be so for a very long time - and if later on no better spells are available something went wrong.
Arcane Crystal adds what is probably the most interesting and original spell with a lot of uses, ESPECIALLY for Wizards. I don't know whether you know how the spell is working: You can cast the Crystal at whatever empty square you like, and it has 1 HP. If it is hit it explodes with the following damage effect for ALL ADJACENT units:
damage = [SummoningLevel*20+40+(8+SumLev*4)*Power]. So a Wizard with Power 4 and Advanced Summoning will do [2*20+40+(8+2*4)*4] = 144 damage to all adjacent units. The only "snag" is, you must trigger the bomb which means, since it has 1 HP, you have to split off single Gremlins. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
That spell is begging for creative use and is a great addition and it reduces the chance to get Raise Dead.
Level 3:
Blade Barrier is a 3-square spell like Firewall that will work like a 100% Fireshield for melee attackers and absorb 75% of ranged and magic damage. The spell should have it's uses - more so than Earthquake http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
So this is the same case than level 2. IF you go the magic way EARLY with a Summoning Wizard you have a better chance you get a spell you can actually use.
Level 4:
The Hive is magically immune, so if you want to kill it you have to attack it with a unit. Of course this is (another) spell that is useless against undead which is a setback. Tactically, though, this may allow double Wasp Swarm castings which might prove devastating.

The bottom line is very positive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
You are wrong yet again.
[QUOTE]

No, you are wrong yet again. But why did I know you would be saying it was a great addition for wizard?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Basically spoken, Raise Dead is more worse than Wasp Swarm is good.QUOTE


Wasp Swarm is great for a wizard. Wasp swarm remains effective throughout the game.

Raise dead is as I have said in all my posts, not good for creeping. However, getting Arcane Crystal instead of wasp swarm would be tragic. It doesn't work with MOTW and requres a stack to waste their turn to shoot it. Is that what you call an effective spell? No, but Nival put it in so you have to defend it, just like you do Summon Elemental.

Consider endgame usage: expert summoning, spell power 8
damage = [SummoningLevel*20+40+(8+SumLev*4)*Power].
damage = 3*20 + 40 +(8 + 3)*8 = 228 damage

Now, subtract damage that the gremlins would have done. Add that the gremlins have to move right after the wizard or enemies get away from the spell. It also can't be used near wizard's own creatures. Highly limited usage spell.

I would rather have wasp swarm for creeping or wasp swarm or raise dead for endgame. And I repeat, wasp swarm is GREAT for wizard throughout game.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Level 3:
Blade Barrier is a 3-square spell like Firewall that will work like a 100% Fireshield for melee attackers and absorb 75% of ranged and magic damage. The spell should have it's uses - more so than Earthquake http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
So this is the same case than level 2. IF you go the magic way EARLY with a Summoning Wizard you have a better chance you get a spell you can actually use.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Like firewall? Not hardly. Firewall can be cast on creatures (like shooters behind guardian stacks.) Can blade barrier? No. Firewall does not requre the enemy creatures to attack it to damage them. Does Blade Barrier? Yes. So the only similarity is that both are 3 squares long.

Consider endgame usage: expert summoning, spell power 8
hit points = 96+12*Power
hit points = 96 + 12*8 = 192
Damages units that attack it = to damage casued. This spell will realistically last one turn and do 192 damage. Bleh. You want to lower chance to get Phantom Forces for this? Bleh.
It will be damaged by Earthquake by the way. Expert Earthquake does 100-400 damage (average 200) so would destroy multiple barriers in one casting. Bleh.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Level 4:
The Hive is magically immune, so if you want to kill it you have to attack it with a unit. Of course this is (another) spell that is useless against undead which is a setback. Tactically, though, this may allow double Wasp Swarm castings which might prove devastating.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hive has 100 hit points at expert level. Heeee hee heee. Easily destroyed. It also attacks the nearest enemy that is not immune to it.

Begins with random ATB value between 0.5 and 1.
Hive use spell power and mana of the summoner. Heeeheeheeeheee.
Summoning lost firewall for this?

OMG, for level 4 spell summoning have Summon Elemental and Summon Hive. Heeee hee heeeee heeee.

So wizard may wind up with.
Fist
Arcane Crystal
Blade Barrier
Hive
Arcane Armor.

Bleh.

Elodin
10-03-2007, 02:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by H5forem:
I'm waiting for another Idea to make somme use in the first weeks of the Artificier skill on Heroic

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Make first level artifacts free.

Reduce cost of first level artifacts (1 wood or ore + 1 rare resource)

Kranyum
10-03-2007, 02:21 AM
I believe all racials should be put to use without the use of the town. It just slows down the game and favors turtling.

Suggestions of use:

Knight can train creatures outside town. The town buildings just provide an increase to the limit of creatures trained or reduce cost.

Ranger can choose favorite enemy outside of town

Wizard can create and redistribute micro artifacts on his own. The building should lower the cost or something.

it is clear that these 3 races are too dependant of going back to town to often which is an imbalance imo. Not to mention rpg-style maps will be more problematic when it comes to leveling up your racial skill.

B_Doomreaver
10-03-2007, 02:24 AM
I know that since I'm less skilled than most of the 'experts' in this topic (I regularly play on Hard, not Heroic) my opinion might be discounted, but I feel it valid.

The Hive seems to me like a somewhat powerful spell. Sure, at expert it only has 100 hitpoints, but it's magic immune so there are VERY few area of effects that can kill it. Therefore, most of the time the enemy would have to spend a unit turn to kill it. Pretty expensive to cost one enemy a single turn, but with good tactical placement and a good mana reserve, you might get it to cast a few Wasps before it goes. Even higher mana cost than casting a Wasp Swarm, but if it survives long enough to get two turns, you just got two Wasps with the same initiative cost of one.

Only problems I can see are if you have low enough mana that the extra mana spent on Wasps is detrimental, or if the enemy is largely immune to Wasp Swarm, or if you happen to place it where an AoE hitting critter (like Dragons, Untamed Cyclops, that sort of thing) can hit some of your troops too.

Well, there's the fact that it's not so good if the enemy uses Succubus Mistresses. One of the few critters that can AoE it without even getting close.

Jolly-Joker
10-03-2007, 03:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by H5forem:
I'm waiting for another Idea to make somme use in the first weeks of the Artificier skill on Heroic

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/typing.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Make first level artifacts free.

Reduce cost of first level artifacts (1 wood or ore + 1 rare resource) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
You DO think, you are a good player, right?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
Case closed yet again. Yes, give all Wizards the Resurrect spell as an ability that uses up 25% Init only.

By the way, your answer to the summoning spells is off as well. Wasp Swarm good throughout the whole game, for example? Not necessarily. You are forgetting (or not realizing) that Heroes is not a game of GENERAL play, but of special cases - you have to find the best way to go in each given situation - and when, for example, you find that a crucial thing is guarded by a Horde of Water Elementals, Wasp Swarm will be worth exactly zilch. Blade Barrier will be infinitely better. As is the case when playing against Necro or even finding a strong undead presence in guarding stacks. Not to mention that Wasp Swarm needs the full skill to be really effective. And so on and so forth.

Why don't you just play on Hard difficulty?

Elodin
10-03-2007, 04:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:

Reduce cost of first level artifacts (1 wood or ore + 1 rare resource) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
You DO think, you are a good player, right?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
Case closed yet again. Yes, give all Wizards the Resurrect spell as an ability that uses up 25% Init only.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, actually I am a good player and not required to represent certain position either. Although I would not say that I have always considered all implications of a suggestion as I am imperfect human being rather than a god. As always, you insult everyone who does not have same opinion you must represent. In that, I admit, you have resolution and consistancy.

How strong is the resurrect from consume artifact in early game? Not as good as eternal servatude, which the necro has for free resurrections that happens after the battle, requiring no actions on heroes part.

I certainly would not pay 1 wood/1ore + 1 rare resources to resurrect a few creatures. That would be foolish. For you to think the wizard would do so even once in early game, much less number of times is just silly. Heeee hee heee.

Let us look at consume artifact facts rather than just state a required position, eh?

The number of Hit Points healed is equal to 10*Hero_Level*(1+Nb_Effects), where Nb_Effects is the number of effects
Consider a level 5 heroe with a level 1 artifact
10*5(1 +1) = 100 hit points restored

Would you pay 1 wood/1 ore + 1 rare resource to resurrect 100 hit points of creatures in early game? Think things through next time before immediately beginning your insults.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
By the way, your answer to the summoning spells is off as well. Wasp Swarm good throughout the whole game, for example?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are forgetting (or not realizing) that in majority battles wasp swarm + MOTW will disable 2 stacks and be infinitely better than occasionally useful Blade Barrier.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Why don't you just play on Hard difficulty? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because enemy AI cast all spells on heroic, hire more heroes than any other difficulty, and gets bigger resource bonus to start game with. Also the neutral stacks are bigger. In summary, it is more interesting and challenging game play.

Jolly-Joker
10-03-2007, 05:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:

Reduce cost of first level artifacts (1 wood or ore + 1 rare resource) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
You DO think, you are a good player, right?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
Case closed yet again. Yes, give all Wizards the Resurrect spell as an ability that uses up 25% Init only.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, actually I am a good player and not required to represent certain position either. Although I would not say that I have always considered all implications of a suggestion as I am imperfect human being rather than a god. As always, you insult everyone who does not have same opinion you must represent. In that, I admit, you have resolution and consistancy.

How strong is the resurrect from consume artifact in early game? Not as good as eternal servatude, which the necro has for free resurrections that happens after the battle, requiring no actions on heroes part.

I certainly would not pay 5 wood/5ore + 5 rare resources to resurrect a few creatures. That would be foolish. For you to think the wizard would do so even once in early game, much less number of times is just silly. Heeee hee heee.

Let us look at consume artifact facts rather than just state a required position, eh?

The number of Hit Points healed is equal to 10*Hero_Level*(1+Nb_Effects), where Nb_Effects is the number of effects
Consider a level 5 heroe with a level 1 artifact
10*5(1 +1) = 100 hit points restored

Would you pay 5 wood/5 ore + 5 rare resources to resurrect 100 hit points of creatures in early game? Think things through next time before immediately beginning your insults.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
By the way, your answer to the summoning spells is off as well. Wasp Swarm good throughout the whole game, for example?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are forgetting (or not realizing) that in majority battles wasp swarm + MOTW will disable 2 stacks and be infinitely better than occasionally useful Blade Barrier.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Why don't you just play on Hard difficulty? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because enemy AI cast all spells on heroic, hire more heroes than any other difficulty, and gets bigger resource bonus to start game with. Also the neutral stacks are bigger. In summary, it is more interesting and challenging game play. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not insulting you. I'm stating what I think, and I think you are not as good as a player as you think you are.
You are generalizing too much, as I said.
If you feel insulted, I can't help it. It's my honest opinion.

Let's take a look at this line of you here:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Would you pay 5 wood/5 ore + 5 rare resources to resurrect 100 hit points of creatures in early game? Think things through next time before immediately beginning your insults. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Of course I would. Depending on what was at stake and what resources I had I'd certainly do it. You remember my WotWorlds game report you didn't answer to? The Sulfur Dune guarded by lots of Master Hunters? I'd attack those with an arti equipped anyway pretty soon and would OF COURSE Consume that artifact to revive lost Gremlins. NORMALLY the artifact would most probably consist of Wood and Crystal, that being the less needed resources, but in that specific case and considering the good Gem and Wood situation with the soon to be flagged Gem mine and Sawmill I'd take the one I have, consisting of Wood and Gems. My hero will be better than level 5, though, probably 8 or so.

So the one who should start to think things through is you here.

As for Eternal Servitude, you really think that is better? A RANDOMLY picked stack that had losses is animated for 7+5*Level points. For your level 5 hero that is 32 animated points of a randomly picked stack. And that is better?

And, yes, Wasp Swarm and MotW is powerful in certain situations, but you are not guaranteed to get either the spell or the fitting opponents. So you must have more weapons in your arsenal. You should not depend on one thing. You have to take the situation AT HAND and make the best out of it and not try to force the game to always follow the same path.

But I see now that this discussion makes no sense at all.
I demonstrated my point. Chuck did as well.
What would you conclude out of it? That we were just lucky? That you are always unlucky? That we are lying because it's impossible?

Elodin
10-03-2007, 07:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
I'm not insulting you. I'm stating what I think, and I think you are not as good as a player as you think you are.
You are generalizing too much, as I said.
If you feel insulted, I can't help it. It's my honest opinion.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your statement was responding to my statement that would be foolish in early game to spend resources to resurrect 100 hp of creatures. You still say it would be good idea to do it out of refusal to say that anyone could ever have any idea other than yours that could be be valid.

In early game you don't have such amount of resources to spare. Heck even in late game I wouldn't do it for that 100 hit points of creatures. You take away benefit of aritfact from rest of stack and waste those resources.

I think you were just insulting me, as you do all who disagree with you. You simply not capable of civil debate as you have shown in every single forum I see you post on. But I don't mind returning favor if that is way you must debate.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
As for Eternal Servitude, you really think that is better? A RANDOMLY picked stack that had losses is animated for 7+5*Level points. For your level 5 hero that is 32 animated points of a randomly picked stack. And that is better?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, indeed it is free (unlike resource cost for consume artifact) and necromancer probably already used raise dead/MOTN combo to keep almost all troops alive. Whatever he missed in early game eternal servatude, which take no initiative and no action on necro's part, will be raised.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
And, yes, Wasp Swarm and MotW is powerful in certain situations, but you are not guaranteed to get either the spell or the fitting opponents. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it is powerful in more situation than arcane crystal for sure. And with arcane crystal thrown in, there is only 33% chance to get it instead of 50%.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
But I see now that this discussion makes no sense at all.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are right. You will always stick by certain opinion as required.

Jolly-Joker
10-03-2007, 08:04 AM
Elodin, once and for all:

YOU. HAVE. BEEN. PROVEN. WRONG!
No matter what you, say, conjure, lie, state, claim and no matter how many quotes you pull out of context, chose to ignore or fail to understand, no matter how often you claim to have been insulted or or whatever else you field:
YOU. HAVE. BEEN. PROVEN. WRONG!
Furthermore, with your failure to concede this, with the fact that you chose to ignore our efforts and seem to be unable to acknowledge an error, you are wasting people's time and insult our intelligence.

Learn losing with grace, then you may be a winner one day.

Elodin
10-03-2007, 08:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Elodin, once and for all:

YOU. HAVE. BEEN. PROVEN. WRONG!
No matter what you, say, conjure, lie, state, claim and no matter how many quotes you pull out of context, chose to ignore or fail to understand, no matter how often you claim to have been insulted or or whatever else you field:
YOU. HAVE. BEEN. PROVEN. WRONG!
Furthermore, with your failure to concede this, with the fact that you chose to ignore our efforts and seem to be unable to acknowledge an error, you are wasting people's time and insult our intelligence.

Learn losing with grace, then you may be a winner one day. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jolly Joker, once and for all:

You are wasting people's time with your continual insults on every board for those who say anything in the game needs to change or who have any opinion other than your own.

Learn how to debate without insults and lies, learn how to support position other than company position and people may have some respsect for you on some board.

ImperialDane
10-03-2007, 09:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Jolly Joker, once and for all:

You are wasting people's time with your continual insults on every board for those who say anything in the game needs to change or who have any opinion other than your own.

Learn how to debate without insults and lies, learn how to support position other than company position and people may have some respsect for you on some board. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well wasn't that theatrical. As far as i can see he has been trying not to be insulting, but he seems forced into this nor has he been lying at all, but of course if he has been lying, please do show.

Regarding respect, well how do you know that nobody on this board respects him at all ? Seems a rather extreme statement to make. Just because he doesn't agree with your opinions on a certain topic and then defends his own opinion.

Perhaps you should just take it easy, it is after all, just a game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Elodin
10-03-2007, 10:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImperialDane:

Well wasn't that theatrical. As far as i can see he has been trying not to be insulting, </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, you think my post was theatrical though it was mostly quote of what he said thrown back at him?

I can quote many pages of provocation from him if you wish from this and other board. But how about just this page?

NO, it really wasn't theatrical since I only repeated his insults against me. You say he has been going out of his way not to insult? I can quote many pages of insults if you wish, both this and other forum.

For one example, just from this page, what was he doing if not provoking me?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
You DO think, you are a good player, right?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
Case closed yet again.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That wasn't provocation?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Elodin, once and for all:

YOU. HAVE. BEEN. PROVEN. WRONG!
No matter what you, say, conjure, lie, state, claim and no matter how many quotes you pull out of context, chose to ignore or fail to understand, no matter how often you claim to have been insulted or or whatever else you field:
YOU. HAVE. BEEN. PROVEN. WRONG!
Furthermore, with your failure to concede this, with the fact that you chose to ignore our efforts and seem to be unable to acknowledge an error, you are wasting people's time and insult our intelligence.

Learn losing with grace, then you may be a winner one day.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will continue to employ whatever style of debate he use. If he insult me, I insult him. He will not intimidate me with provocation.

Oakwarrior
10-03-2007, 10:56 AM
Well IMO Elodin has been proven wrong, until he himself has proven otherwise.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-03-2007, 11:12 AM
I didn't know until now what Arcane Crystal did. And I must say it sounds intriguing. It looks like it will do substantial damage. And while Elodin dislikes the wasting an attack to trigger it, I'm not sure if that's a down side or not. Is it immune to magic? If not, then you could trigger it with an area effect spell and get a double explosion. You could place it adjacent to the enemy's turtled archers then attack it with magnetic golems so there'd be no retaliation, you'd heavily damage the enemy ranks AND you'd heal the golems. Hmmm...the more and more I think about this, the more options open up. Single master gremlin stacks which can serve 2 purposes. One, they can repair a killed stack of golems automatically back to one golem (quite useful in certain situations) multiple times, and they can fire off single shots to trigger crystals while the main stack still targets like normal. Battlemages magic attack shot goes thru everything in its path...including Arcane crystal. So you can take out your normal targets AND trigger the crystal. Stormlords could summon a cloud over the enemy ranks AND the crystal to set it off too. Wow, there are a ton of options that I'm seeing.

Anybody else see some? And by the way, what kind of damage does it do based on summoning expertise? JJ?

@ Elodin
While I know you were talking to JJ about this, the accusations that he (and I) are speaking for Nival/Ubisoft is simply baseless. Yes, JJ is doing translating work for them. But he was a proponent of the game BEFORE then. The only connection I've got to them is the fact that I'm able to chat with Fabrice occasionally. They've got no pull or sway with me in any way. As for JJ, trust me on this one, he's only speaking his mind. He's definitely not spouting company lines. Early on, he was one of the most critical people on the boards and was a major reason several game-changes were introduced (imo, that is). Several of his "suggestions" were implemented or at least incorporated partially. He's all for the betterment of the game (as am I). But if you want to hold to the opinion that we have some hidden agenda...I highly doubt there's anything either of us can do to convince you otherwise. So be it. And please, if I come off as insulting, please let me know. I hate having that opinion of me anywhere. If JJ has something to add, I'm sure he'll feel free. As usual. :O)

Jolly-Joker
10-03-2007, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Anybody else see some? And by the way, what kind of damage does it do based on summoning expertise? JJ? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What exactly do you want to know?

For the rest, well, I see that the spell is starting to get the same wheels turning in your brain than in mine. That's why I said:
"Arcane Crystal adds what is probably the most interesting and original spell with a lot of uses."
In my opinion it's a pretty imaginative and creative spell, but that's only me.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-03-2007, 11:40 AM
Well, you posted that equation and I overlooked the part where you listed "summoning level" I thought you only posted the damage for advanced summoning only....so nevermind. :O)

Are there any secondary summoning skills that will buff it? And is it immune to magic damage (or was that just the wasp hive)?

Jolly-Joker
10-03-2007, 11:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Elodin, once and for all:

YOU. HAVE. BEEN. PROVEN. WRONG!
No matter what you, say, conjure, lie, state, claim and no matter how many quotes you pull out of context, chose to ignore or fail to understand, no matter how often you claim to have been insulted or or whatever else you field:
YOU. HAVE. BEEN. PROVEN. WRONG!
Furthermore, with your failure to concede this, with the fact that you chose to ignore our efforts and seem to be unable to acknowledge an error, you are wasting people's time and insult our intelligence.

Learn losing with grace, then you may be a winner one day. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jolly Joker, once and for all:

You are wasting people's time with your continual insults on every board for those who say anything in the game needs to change or who have any opinion other than your own.

Learn how to debate without insults and lies, learn how to support position other than company position and people may have some respsect for you on some board. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pathetic.

Shall we call you
"Elodin the Pathetic Parrot"
now?

Nah. This is no war or something. There was a difference in opinions and you have been proven wrong. By Chuck. By me. If you'd know Chuck as long as I know him, you'd know that it's pretty difficult to tell him something about Wizards. You have to have a really good point.
But you haven't.
If that's a problem for you, well, it's only a game. It could be worse. I'm not here to make your life difficult or something.
What about starting up another game and try to play with a bit more imagination? Find unusual solutions for problems? After all, Academy is supposed to be the most difficult to master town - at least that's what Nival said.

B_Doomreaver
10-03-2007, 11:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Well, you posted that equation and I overlooked the part where you listed "summoning level" I thought you only posted the damage for advanced summoning only....so nevermind. :O)

Are there any secondary summoning skills that will buff it? And is it immune to magic damage (or was that just the wasp hive)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not having a full version of Tribes of the East myself, I'm of course not an authority, but according to the Skillwheel on Celestial Heavens (http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=520) there are no secondary abilities in Summoning that help any of the 3 new Summoning spells.

I'm still somewhat puzzled at there being no secondary abilties to increase Wasp Swarm. (and by proxy, the new The Hive)

Jolly-Joker
10-03-2007, 11:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Well, you posted that equation and I overlooked the part where you listed "summoning level" I thought you only posted the damage for advanced summoning only....so nevermind. :O)

Are there any secondary summoning skills that will buff it? And is it immune to magic damage (or was that just the wasp hive)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Answer is no at this stage. No buffs, no magic immunity.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-03-2007, 12:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B_Doomreaver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Well, you posted that equation and I overlooked the part where you listed "summoning level" I thought you only posted the damage for advanced summoning only....so nevermind. :O)

Are there any secondary summoning skills that will buff it? And is it immune to magic damage (or was that just the wasp hive)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not having a full version of Tribes of the East myself, I'm of course not an authority, but according to the Skillwheel on Celestial Heavens (http://www.celestialheavens.com/viewpage.php?id=520) there are no secondary abilities in Summoning that help any of the 3 new Summoning spells.

I'm still somewhat puzzled at there being no secondary abilties to increase Wasp Swarm. (and by proxy, the new The Hive) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that's true, I'm a bit surprised too. I would've thought they'd add something as an extra like they did with the Curse of the Netherworld buff added into the Master of Pain secondary skill. Oh well, I guess we'll have to wait and see...again. *sigh*

~edit~ Nevermind...JJ answered that one. Heck, maybe a buff won't even be needed. :O)

ImperialDane
10-03-2007, 12:26 PM
@Elodin: If that is the way you wish to fight it:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Hive has 100 hit points at expert level. Heeee hee heee. Easily destroyed. It also attacks the nearest enemy that is not immune to it.

Begins with random ATB value between 0.5 and 1.
Hive use spell power and mana of the summoner. Heeeheeheeeheee.
Summoning lost firewall for this?

OMG, for level 4 spell summoning have Summon Elemental and Summon Hive. Heeee hee heeeee heeee.

So wizard may wind up with.
Fist
Arcane Crystal
Blade Barrier
Hive
Arcane Armor.

Bleh. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

and that was your reply to one of his posts, so don't pretend to be better than him.

and you still haven't shown that nobody here has respect for him as you have earlier stated.

B_Doomreaver
10-03-2007, 12:38 PM
I just noticed:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So wizard may wind up with.
Fist
Arcane Crystal
Blade Barrier
Hive
Arcane Armor. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doesn't seem too weak to me. Fist is weaker than Eldritch Arrow at the beginning, but until you get decent spellpower it's better for single targets than Stone Spikes or using the wizard's attack. And of course not every Wizard ALWAYS gets Eldritch Arrow.

Arcane Crystal looks like it could be a powerful AoE device if used well, especially if the neutrals are dumb enough to attack it.

Blade Barrier can provide a renewable Gremlin-shield if your normal blockers are busy, or interfere with others.

The Hive I've explained previously in this thread how I feel about it.

Arcane Armor can lower casualties is the kind of fights where you NEED a 5th level spell. Taking half damage for a while (assuming the enemy doesn't have Expert Shatter Summoning) shouldn't be underestimated. (even though it's only one stack per cast) Is it as awe-inspiring as the Phoenix? Nope, but it can't be instantly removed by a simple Harm Touch or some such thing.

Elodin
10-03-2007, 01:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Pathetic.

Shall we call you
"Elodin the Pathetic Parrot"
now?
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, you are the pathetic one.

In every board you post on you insult everyone who disagree with you. I am not the only one who observed on this board that you attack everyone who has any critism for the game either. Someone else posted as much less than a week ago.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Nah. This is no war or something. There was a difference in opinions and you have been proven wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. You have not shown significant use of artificer in the first month.

Elodin
10-03-2007, 01:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImperialDane:
@Elodin: If that is the way you wish to fight it:

and that was your reply to one of his posts, so don't pretend to be better than him.

and you still haven't shown that nobody here has respect for him as you have earlier stated. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He made all kinds of statements about me.Why you not tell him to prove? Seems you are on one way street.

Yes, I will debate with him same way he debates with me. I am always civil until other person become uncivil then I will respond in kind.

ImperialDane
10-03-2007, 01:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> In every board you post on you insult everyone who disagree with you. I am not the only one who observed on this board that you attack everyone who has any critism for the game either. Someone else posted as much less than a week ago.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Could you then show us some of these ? Because you can't just say it would proving it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> He made all kinds of statements about me.Why you not tell him to prove? Seems you are on one way street.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Statements and statements, he asked you a few question in the first place in a teasing kind of manner, but when you persisted, yes he made statements.. probably out of frustatration. Why i am not asking him to prove his statements ? Which ones ? The ones you say he made against you ? Or the ones about artificer ?

Pitsu
10-03-2007, 01:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
I will continue to employ whatever style of debate he use. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It won't help. You are not the first whose days are ruined because of his posts and probably won't be last either. JJ has an interesting mind and often an unique viewpoint, but like with any exceptional people he has some shortcomings as well. Style of discussion is certainly not anything shining and I would recommend you to try not to fall to the same level as his worst posts.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-03-2007, 01:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
I disagree. You have not shown significant use of artificer in the first month. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Didn't I? I was exploring farther and against more difficult opponents by using them. The lucky hits the grems were making combined with the defense reductions the golems were dishing out seemed pretty darned significant to me. Especially when taken into account the fact that it didn't disturb my building plan for a single day. I guess I'm just not sure what you'd consider significant use in the first month. I used it in over a dozen battles and it dramatically increased my overall effectivness at no additional cost. *shrugs* I don't know what else you'd want.

ImperialDane
10-03-2007, 01:50 PM
@chuckles: He just wants something that supports him.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-03-2007, 02:19 PM
No. Elodin's not the bad guy here. He's not being stubborn and ignoring our findings. He's just not seeing enough to validate that strategy over the MMR strategy. He's got valid points and I certainly acknowledge them, however until he tries mine, he shouldn't just dismiss mine. That's all. I like Elodin. He's a very informed gamer and a lively debater. Makes for interesting discussion. Hopefully he feels the same way. (I'm sure my wife would disagree...but let's not go there. *grin*)

Jolly-Joker
10-03-2007, 03:39 PM
Well, I certainly thank whoever is responsible for deleting my post for whatever the reason, but leaving quotes of that post yet again ripped out of context in.
I furthermore thank Pitsu for his insights and his new job as a spokesmen of those that <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">are not the first whose days are ruined because of his posts </div></BLOCKQUOTE> whoever they may be.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-03-2007, 03:58 PM
Wow, this is degenerating quickly. Come on, this was a nice friendly debate. Arguments to be sure, but they were put in polite fashion. Let's leave out the personal attacks (intentional or not) and get back to the topic of discussing the game and its tactics. This goes for BOTH sides of the argument and the occasional person jumping in. It's certainly not important enough to get upset about. Don't ya think? *sigh*

Jolly-Joker
10-03-2007, 11:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Nah. This is no war or something. There was a difference in opinions and you have been proven wrong. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. You have not shown significant use of artificer in the first month. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'll show you significant use of artificer in the first month, as soon as you have defined significant, by showing mesignificant use of Irresistable Magic for Dungeon or Favored Enemy for Sylvans in the first month.
Play Underground Treasures, please.