Concerns about DA SvM

[PointedCow]

From the infomation I have gathered, it scares me. It looks like they are eliminating the great gameplay that has been the most fun for me the last past 2 years. They are trying trying to cater to the 'noob' who sits on *****house and Aquaruis. They are gona make the maps less complex, seriosly that is what makes so great. There is no other game as complex as Pandora and Chaos.
Also only having extraction which I thought was the most aggressive aspect of Splinter Cell(which isnt a bad thing since it freshened it up a bit.) But having it only extraction makes it more of a run around game. Chaos had it perfect with different kinds of objectives.

PS im dishing out 400 bucks for the 360 and 60 bucks for your game that I only want for 360. I would be most disapointed if it becaume the common noob game. Pandora had origonality and now they are trying to cater to the noob and make more money. I hope I dont have to call you sell outs. I know that there has been many complaints prior to a game realease and they made the game acully more indepth. Also did I mention that the CQC thing scares me but I dont think you will mess that up to much but if you can get out of a steath grab with a super combo i would throw that peice of **** on the interstate highway.

[PointedCow]

From the infomation I have gathered, it scares me. It looks like they are eliminating the great gameplay that has been the most fun for me the last past 2 years. They are trying trying to cater to the 'noob' who sits on *****house and Aquaruis. They are gona make the maps less complex, seriosly that is what makes so great. There is no other game as complex as Pandora and Chaos.
Also only having extraction which I thought was the most aggressive aspect of Splinter Cell(which isnt a bad thing since it freshened it up a bit.) But having it only extraction makes it more of a run around game. Chaos had it perfect with different kinds of objectives.

PS im dishing out 400 bucks for the 360 and 60 bucks for your game that I only want for 360. I would be most disapointed if it becaume the common noob game. Pandora had origonality and now they are trying to cater to the noob and make more money. I hope I dont have to call you sell outs. I know that there has been many complaints prior to a game realease and they made the game acully more indepth. Also did I mention that the CQC thing scares me but I dont think you will mess that up to much but if you can get out of a steath grab with a super combo i would throw that peice of **** on the interstate highway.

[DrCactus]

Now before ppl call this guy a names and such, I'd like to point something out.

This new member, PointedCow, has decided to take the time and register in these forums and let his voice be heard about his concerns about DA SvM. This to me means that not only us hardcore fans are worried about the situation of SvM.

Hopefully, his concerns will not go un-noticed.

[Chairmaker-US]

Good points Day (especialy the part about him not being a hardcore member of the community). Perhaps M4 or SCWORLD and others can bring this thread to the attention of our esteemed community manager.

I bow to the will of the Doctor and his Cacti.

[JpMoonwalker]

pointed may be new to the forums but hes a veteran splinter cell player and he has the same worries anybody who's played the VS mode since pandora the "right" way may have about double agent's supposedly more mainstream multiplayer...u cant blame ubi for trying to make the game more accessible but with that they may be taking away what many of us liked about the VS mode...the steep learning curve and the strategy and teamwork that this game requires...lets just hope they dont drift too far from what we've come to enjoy in PT and CT

[Starkey_]

Agreed. The vets should be worried. I talk w/ mr poor alot, and I agree when he says that he hopes this works out. I'm hoping that we all have to start over. Maybe it'll humble some people. I DON'T want it more noob friendly. I want the complexity. I'm nervous, but excited, because we don't know what is gonna happen. Only time will tell.

Flame away...


G/t X G0Dm0de X

[CaliberRed]

can you all please stop whining its getting pretty annoying. ubisoft knows what their doing

[Chairmaker-US]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CaliberRed:
can you all please stop whining its getting pretty annoying. ubisoft knows what their doing </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL

We do not want our game to take the route of Rainbow 6 and Ghost Recon. Both of those award winning games were dumbed down feature by feature 'till there was nothing left of what made the games so special. We (the CT PC Community) have taken a proactive stance toward UBI and the game we love. Both of those communites revolted only after there games had nothing left of what made them great. Now they are stuck with games they are unhappy with. We have no plan of sitting idly by while that happens to SC.

Ubisoft has a history of ignoring its customers and we wont go down without a fight. At least we can say we tried to stop UBI from killing off SvM on the PC. Look at how UBI treated the gamers of their new game King Kong. At least we have some leverage unlike those poor souls.

[Spekkio9]

Well, look at it from Ubi's perspective. At any given time, they have between 20 and 200 PC players playing the online game. At any given time, half the players on are playing deathmatch. What does that say about the popularity of SvM? If you worked at Ubisoft, wouldn't you say it's time for a change?

Yes, I know what you're thinking. It's what we're all thinking: "Yeah, it's time for a change. It's time to support your game and get rid of all the bugs." What if, though, they patched everything and the game was only marginally more popular? Why should they even bother to patch a game for 50 people in the first place? (As an aside, I'd have much more respect for Ubisoft and Rhoulette if they could come out and actually state that as the real reason, instead of feeding us "the devs are busy" bs). At this point, patching the game is moot, because it's way past its hayday. If Ubisoft is in the business to make money, and money made is measured partially by how many people play the online mode, then it should come as no surprise why Ubi would want to overhaul SvM for something better.

Now, based on Ubi's track record with multiplayer games, we're probably going to get the same buggy experience we've all come to know and expect from them. Nevertheless, the new 'revolution' of SvM could produce something even greater than what we have now. Or it could suck. We really have no idea what's coming, because Ubisoft is very quiet about SCDA. Clearly, though, they have to do SOMETHING, because there aren't a great many people even playing SvM.

Anyway, here's what I probably would've cooked up if I were the head of the game, but hey, I don't get the big bucks for this:

1. I wouldn't short-change any system of SvM that is capable of handling it. It goes without saying, then, that the new SvM would be on the SCX engine.
2. I would continue with the beta test/unofficial demo. This would not only get the community involved like the SCCT beta, but it would allow everyone to preview the 'new' SvM.
3. I would strive to produce the least buggy game possible. Considering the biggest with the last two outings that turned people off were bugs and glitches, I would devote much more time and resources to QA testing.
4. Given the complexity of SvM, I would include an in-depth instruction manual and in-game tutorial system, including some hints at more advanced tactics.
5. I would make the hand-to-hand combat more immersive. No, not DDR. Epicurus bought up a good method to make H2H combat great, and I think it would be very nice to add into the game. To maintain the emphasis on strategy and sneakiness, frontal assault moves can be countered while rear assault moves cannot.
6. I would try to make the maps as least constricting as possible. Club House is still extremely popular, even after we played it out in the beta. Staying along those lines, I would try to create more maps that give the freedom of Club, rather than maps like Station or Warehouse that pretty much force the spy's hands.
7. I would devote time and resources into improving the netcode. There's no reason that people in the same country with broadband should ping 150+ to join each other's servers.
8. I would keep what works in SvM, and throw out what doesn't. That's a general statement, I know. What works is the tensity of the games. Those moments when you're hiding and a merc walks by, not knowing you're there. What works is the sudden burst of action when it's time to attack. What doesn't work are things that can lead to virtual "blue balls." Random events that bring the action to a hault, oftentimes unfairly impeding a team.
9. More optional cooperation maneuvers. Maps like Station can be annoying, because if one spy dies the other one has to make its way to spawn (not easy), or the dead spy is just cannon fodder for a sniper. More cooperation maneuvers would be great, as long as they aren't necessarily imperitive for the success of the mission.
10. Ubi mentioned this already, but I would add more possibilities to attack from above. The SCPT maps generally had a lot of things to climb on. You have to fear not only attacks from the same level, but attacks from above. In SCCT, one doesn't really fear attacks from above so much. Partially because most of the new maps are flat, and partially because attempting a jump is a crapshoot.
11. I'd include at least 12 all-new maps, and a fully-functional map editor for the PC players to work their creative magic.

I know this stuff is really general, but there are a lot of ways to improve on the game while keeping the core gameplay. Let's hope Ubi did so.

[Globe.48]

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/heart.gif @ Spekkio's post.

[MadMaxx22]

Look why do people think change is bad? from what ive heard they changed everything except the basic rules of versus! and whats wrong with more features i personaly think versus has to little features and it needs more! and this hand to hand combat system ubisoft speaks of is a good idea that way no more B!tching about not grabbing therr neck but hittng them instead and setting your self up for a shotgun blast to the chest!

[Spekkio9]

One of the concerns many people have over SvM is the 3v3 format. However, there are parts of the 2v2 format that can be impeding. For example, what happens if someone has to go afk for two minutes? It pretty much can swing the match to a loss. In 3v3 or 4v4, one person missing for two minutes does not have as great an effect.

There is the issue of maintaining the close teamwork that makes SvM so great, but that close teamwork probably turns a lot of casual gamers off. Heck, part of the reason I "smurf" is sometimes I don't feel like talking to people. I still think that having 3 or even 4 members on a team will enable the good clans to maintain close teamwork. It's when you start to have more than that does teamwork fall apart. The biggest thing to work out is having a non-convoluded voice chat system. For casual gamers who like to pick up and play, the bigger team sizes allow people to remain more anonymous, but still work together in a rudimentary sense.

[MadMaxx22]

3vs3 is so people stop B!tching about not being spies enough! dont you all realize ubisoft is giving u what u want? u wanna play tag they give u spy vs spy u wanna have more people on a team they give u 3vs3 then when double agent come out u all gonna want somethin else ignoring the fact that ubisoft does deliver most of the time!

it just they dont fix problems in therr games after they are released that piss me off!

[Spekkio9]

That's the point. The people who actually stick around DO NOT want to play tag. They DO NOT care whether they play spy or merc. Actually, when I'm on without a partner I often prefer to play merc. Less teamwork is necessary so it's overall less stressful.

This is why so many PC players are fearful that Ubisoft is "catering to n00bs," because n00bs are the ones who join your server, switch over to the spy team which already has two members, and proceeds to ready up. N00bs are the ones who join a story server and say "gmo i wnat tag!"

[Eclyps3]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MadMaxx22:
3vs3 is so people stop B!tching about not being spies enough! dont you all realize ubisoft is giving u what u want? u wanna play tag they give u spy vs spy u wanna have more people on a team they give u 3vs3 then when double agent come out u all gonna want somethin else ignoring the fact that ubisoft does deliver most of the time!

it just they dont fix problems in therr games after they are released that piss me off! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As Spekkio pointed out, we DO NOT want tag; Spy-only DM games etc etc. Such requests were made by the same people that say "SPIES SHUD HAF NIVES BEKUSE I HATE MERKS KILLING ME AN VRESUS SUKS!1"

[Chimera87]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Spekkio9:
That's the point. The people who actually stick around DO NOT want to play tag. They DO NOT care whether they play spy or merc. Actually, when I'm on without a partner I often prefer to play merc. Less teamwork is necessary so it's overall less stressful.

This is why so many PC players are fearful that Ubisoft is "catering to n00bs," because n00bs are the ones who join your server, switch over to the spy team which already has two members, and proceeds to ready up. N00bs are the ones who join a story server and say "gmo i wnat tag!" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>so true, the ones ubi is listening to are the ones that are not the die-hard SvM-ers that know the game in and out. The problem is that us Die-Harders are in the minority http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Ubi is gonna listen to the n00bs, because thats most logical in their point of view.

I think Ubi should consider thinking about what will happen to the game itself. The entire Versus idea will change with things like SvS and hand to hand combat. Since we all know ubi they will probably make it awesome, but buggy as hell.

We will have to wait, but that doesnt mean we will sit still doing nothing.

[pretty_ugly]

with out quoting spekkio's first post, this is what I was trying to say a few weeks back about Ubi's point of view. of course, I was being a jerk about it, so I don't blame anyone for flaming me over it. what's my point? I guess it's that we have to be realistic and constructive about what's coming.

for instance: the new hand to hand. if it were only possible to block (or counter or whatever) attacks from the front or sides, that would reward more stealthy attacks, yeah? cheers

[MrPoor]

That sounds like a pretty difficult thing to implement correctly though. What happens when this combo sequence starts? Whats to stop the other spy/merc from interfering? We obviously won't know for a while, but I just hope they don't try to add too much to the gameplay.

[KSaiyu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by pretty_ugly:
with out quoting spekkio's first post, this is what I was trying to say a few weeks back about Ubi's point of view. of course, I was being a jerk about it, so I don't blame anyone for flaming me over it. what's my point? I guess it's that we have to be realistic and constructive about what's coming.

for instance: the new hand to hand. if it were only possible to block (or counter or whatever) attacks from the front or sides, that would reward more stealthy attacks, yeah? cheers </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Theoretically in a lag free world it may be a good idea, but Id prefer them to keep it simple so you don't get instances where you can get out of a perfectly good neck grab, but can't get out of one when you're facing the spy.

EDIT: I can't understand the people saying that 3vs3 will minimize the team aspect of the game, as I know very tight teams of up to 16 players at a time that put a premium on teamwork and dominate in their games (Halo, SOCOM etc).

I am concerned about this shift towards a more "nooby friendly" game though, even if it may give the more average SvM player a fairer chance against the better players. For one, it may end up being totally different to the game we loved since SC PT (hopefully not as different as SOCOM3 is from 1 and 2), and the other reason is that winning will be made easier to those that didn't put the effort in. I remember me and my partner getting whooped in SCPT by 2 of the best xbox live players at that time (dunno how they do now) for about 4 maps, and then finally winning a spy game against them in museum. Just hearing them get p***ed off at each other was a great experience, and I fear that if SCDA gives a more level playing field for vets and noobs it could detract from the overall experience and sense of accomplishment from beating teams generally better than you.

[samDaa]

I 100% agree. Ubi is going to **** up another game catering to the random noob who just got off halo. Pandora and Chaos had the best multiplayer ever period. But, you couldn't get right on and start beating people. It took some getting used to and I just know ubi is going to dramatically **** it up to the point where all the good people go back to chaos. There are actually some doubts in my mind on wheather to get the next game in my favorite game series ever. Ubi has really been doing bad lateley IMO. GRAW for the 360 is awesome dont' get me wrong but its not ghost recon. Unless they decide to make a huge change from the demo of blazing angels (in the 3 days till it comes out) its really just a xbox port thats poorly made. They haven't made a "ghost recon" game since the first one. The last rainbow was garbage. As I said I absolutely love splinter cell and even it had some things wrong with it but it was still playable cause it still had the basic idea of the wonderful pandora. DA will NOT IMO.

[scworld]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chairmaker-US:
Good points Day (especialy the part about him not being a hardcore member of the community). Perhaps M4 or SCWORLD and others can bring this thread to the attention of our esteemed community manager.

I bow to the will of the Doctor and his Cacti. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

? Well, I can PM like everyone of you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

[Spekkio9]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Theoretically in a lag free world it may be a good idea, but Id prefer them to keep it simple so you don't get instances where you can get out of a perfectly good neck grab, but can't get out of one when you're facing the spy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE> Make counters client-side. Circumvents lag right there. Might look funky to the host since his move will be reversed during the "irreversible" part, but at least it will level the playing field.

[MrPoor]

Hmm...pointedcow actually made a good point for once? Interesting.

All the real fans of sc don't really matter, unfortunately the noobs who complain are also the ones who buy the games. They already ruined rainbow and gr, and the noobification process was already started in ct. Lets just hope that for some unknown reason they don't do that us.

[PointedCow]

I have acully been on the forums here for quite awhile since splintercell 1. My acount was not letting me sign in soo i had to make a new one. My old acount was Samfisher425.

I'm still can't wait for the game but I'm just a little worried. I didn't know that you posted here Poor thats interesting.

From what I have heard from LAL NUMB8 is that GRAW is more like Rainbow rather then GR2: Summit Strike.

[MrPoor]

Same thing here, I'v been here a while just dont care to post much. Majority of the xbox players are too concerned with coop and nonexistent easter eggs.

[JpMoonwalker]

yea i dont post much either but i've been around for a while...i post the most over at the xbox.com forums

[vega13]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MadMaxx22:
3vs3 is so people stop B!tching about not being spies enough! dont you all realize ubisoft is giving u what u want? u wanna play tag they give u spy vs spy u wanna have more people on a team they give u 3vs3 then when double agent come out u all gonna want somethin else ignoring the fact that ubisoft does deliver most of the time!

it just they dont fix problems in therr games after they are released that piss me off! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

seems like you've been watching that developer interview on DA lately...

[KSaiyu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Make counters client-side. Circumvents lag right there. Might look funky to the host since his move will be reversed during the "irreversible" part, but at least it will level the playing field. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't follow, would that mean the clients would have the power to reverse but not the host, or that all grabs will be reversable??

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PointedCow:
I have acully been on the forums here for quite awhile since splintercell 1. My acount was not letting me sign in soo i had to make a new one. My old acount was Samfisher425.

I'm still can't wait for the game but I'm just a little worried. I didn't know that you posted here Poor thats interesting.

From what I have heard from LAL NUMB8 is that GRAW is more like Rainbow rather then GR2: Summit Strike. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

GRAW definetly is easier to play, although I never really got into the previous ghost recon titles before, and that is a valid point about it being more like rainbow (the easier rainbows that is). I don't really care though as I really only bought the 360 for SCDA and a few other games - at the moment TOCA 3 and SOCOM are tiding me over till September.

I can't believe you 2 have been on these forums all this time, I thought I was one of the only xbox players interested in versus that has been coming here.

.....Bugger my signature was changed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Starkey_]

&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt; Xbox player...

[lalnumb8]

&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;&lt;SC player, but I havn't been on here all this time lol... but yeah cow has a good point. They have to change it some ofcourse because it is 3v3, but they need to keep the original game play the same.

[crossfadex]

they're only making spy vs spy because it doesn't have as much of a steep learning curve and is easier to pick up and play. Ubisoft lost so much customers just because some noob would pick up Spy vs Merc on CT and stop playing because they couldn't kill anybody.

[Spekkio9]

Making counters client-side means that the counter data is sent depending on what the client sees, not what the host data indicates.

In other words, right now the bullcharge is client-side. That's why if you play people with ping &gt;150, the hitbox for the bullcharge seems so generous. On the client's screen, he hit you, and so his comp sends hit data to the host and the opponent falls down.

This is a bad idea for bullcharges because it occurs during real-time playing. It makes the game seem ridiculous.

However, client-side reversal data wouldn't be so intrusive, because it would occur during an animation, not during real-time playing. Like I said, it may look funky sometimes because the host or non-lagging clients will see the reversal happen late, but it won't be like the guy starts to run around and whatnot.

[Eclyps3]

If charge hit detection was host-side, hosts would've been unchargable, so...

[Warkid1993]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PointedCow:
From the infomation I have gathered, it scares me. It looks like they are eliminating the great gameplay that has been the most fun for me the last past 2 years. They are trying trying to cater to the 'noob' who sits on *****house and Aquaruis. They are gona make the maps less complex, seriosly that is what makes so great. There is no other game as complex as Pandora and Chaos.
Also only having extraction which I thought was the most aggressive aspect of Splinter Cell(which isnt a bad thing since it freshened it up a bit.) But having it only extraction makes it more of a run around game. Chaos had it perfect with different kinds of objectives.

PS im dishing out 400 bucks for the 360 and 60 bucks for your game that I only want for 360. I would be most disapointed if it becaume the common noob game. Pandora had origonality and now they are trying to cater to the noob and make more money. I hope I dont have to call you sell outs. I know that there has been many complaints prior to a game realease and they made the game acully more indepth. Also did I mention that the CQC thing scares me but I dont think you will mess that up to much but if you can get out of a steath grab with a super combo i would throw that peice of **** on the interstate highway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You ******ed

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dr.Cactus:
Now before ppl call this guy a names and such, I'd like to point something out.

This new member, PointedCow, has decided to take the time and register in these forums and let his voice be heard about his concerns about DA SvM. This to me means that not only us hardcore fans are worried about the situation of SvM.

Hopefully, his concerns will not go un-noticed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry ^-^

[PointedCow]

Hey I'm not the ******ed one, go play your tag. Dont say im some random noob that just found these forums. Ive been here since splintercell 1. Beat that game 4 times(once no kill). Beat Pandora twice, (once no kill). Beat Chaos twice, once normal once expert. Oh yea and I have a total of around 1000 hours ranked on Pandora and Chaos put together. So if you dont think i know what I'm talking about then you have something wrong. Also it is ******ed saying im simply ******ed with apsolute no merrit behind it