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minihack
05-31-2004, 05:57 AM
I was just wondering if other people of faith who play Far Cry (and other first person shooters) feel that these games might not be good to play? Is there a "moral" boundry that is being crossed?

The reason I ask this is because I consider myself a pacifist and yet I enjoy playing Call of Duty, Far Cry, Joint Opps, ect. For most people this question might seem silly and only worth mocking but it is something that I've been thinking about for awhile.

For me this is a honest question and I'm not putting this up for an argument.

minihack
05-31-2004, 05:57 AM
I was just wondering if other people of faith who play Far Cry (and other first person shooters) feel that these games might not be good to play? Is there a "moral" boundry that is being crossed?

The reason I ask this is because I consider myself a pacifist and yet I enjoy playing Call of Duty, Far Cry, Joint Opps, ect. For most people this question might seem silly and only worth mocking but it is something that I've been thinking about for awhile.

For me this is a honest question and I'm not putting this up for an argument.

BuddhaGamer
05-31-2004, 06:44 AM
As long as playing these games doesn't translate into real-world violence or other problems for a person, I don't see how it could hurt anything. If you're letting your pet or children starve to death because you're sitting at the computer all day, then that's certainly an issue.

As far as you killing people in a game, consider this: you aren't in the game. You're sitting in front of your computer looking at the screen. You aren't killing people, you're pushing a button on the mouse or keyboard that sets the player_fire variable in the game code to 1, checks the current angle of the player's viewpoint, and subtracts some number from the enemy_health variable. In other words, all you're actually DOING is pushing a button on a peripheral attached to a finite state machine which is simulating something that you can identify with on a visceral and intellectual level.

In other words, it's just an illusion. Is participating in that illusion bad? Well, there's something to be said for awareness. As long as you know that it's an illusion, then it won't harm you. Remember, you're just sitting in front of a computer, watching some changing patterns on a screen and pushing buttons. There's no tangible thing that could be "bad" about that situation, is there?

"Stuff your eyes with wonder... live as if you'd drop dead in ten seconds. See the world. It's more fantastic than any dream made or paid for in factories." - Ray Bradbury

jimmyeyes
05-31-2004, 07:17 AM
but what if the persons in question took a particular pleasure in virtually murdering people?

quote's/quip's
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purple alert! purple alert!...........what's a purple alert?.......well...it's not as bad as a red alert but a bit worse then a blue alert, maybe a mauve alert

spike_the_punch
05-31-2004, 09:35 AM
i suppose, as long as your pleasure only comes from destroying virtual people, and, as buddhagamer said, doesn't translate into your life in "the reasl world" it's not a problem. i personally love going into these games, and especially GTA: VC, and just destroying everything in sight; however, I would never even thing of doing anything of the sort out in the world. i am very aware that what I am participating in is only a game, an illusion. i am alos a religious person (catholic if ou care), but i see no conflicts between these kinds of games and my faith, because it is only a game. it is not anything i would ever do i nreality, so i don't think it would be feasible to say that "killing" computer-generated "people" is wrong.

i would, however, say that it is a problem is a person uses games like this as a gateway to more sinister things. and unfortunately it has happened. that does not mean that these kinds of games should be removed from the market, though...just because some teenagers thought blowing people away for real just like in their games would be cool, that doesn't mean the games themselves are the problem. in a situation like that, i would look very intently at the kids' parents, and onwder why they let their children become so engrossed in this virtual world that they began to think it and the real world were one. people like that make me nervous...and we need to make sure our generation understands the difference between reality and illusion, or someday these games and the effects they have on society will be bad and wrong.

lol sorry for the long and slightly off-topic rant-ish)post!!!!!

"Those who have long enjoyed such priveleges as we enjoy forget in time that men have died to win them." --Franklin D. Roosevelt

DreamWraith
05-31-2004, 10:30 AM
im a person of deep faith. but i dont feel playing any said 'video game' is against that faith. then again, most of the fps games out there are from a 'good guy' POV. When i played KOTOR (yes not an fps) i played light side first time. The second time i played, i tried playing dark side, and i just... couldnt do it. I felt too guilty. Funny.

But anyways i personally do not beleive that playing a said game, merely for personal entertainment is against the faith.

HOWEVER, if said game puts you in the position of someone who is intentionally and/or knowingly doing things that are against that faith for no good reason, (Grand Theft Auto, Hitman Contracts, Postman) basically games that are nothing but mindless killing without purpose, then i think that is a little bit, shall i say, outside the faith?

I'm not saying i never tried out those games. But i am saying i tried them once, and havent touched them since. And i asked God for forgiveness afterwards.

Thats just my POV. Of course in the end its all between you and God.

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mr.amphibian
05-31-2004, 02:09 PM
gta gives joy because of our simple happienesss out of seeing civillization destroyed. well maybe not happiness but fascination, of pushing people and things to their limits. like woah that car just exploded and crushed someone. you're not happy because someone died (well you might be, but thats your problem :P), the way i see it the fascination comes from seeing something totally unusual and different, something you wouldnt see (or at least have some control over) outside of a computer game with physics.

maybe however u load up gta. u get a lil gun. u shoot someone. they scream and run away. soon, when they get out of your sight, they dissapear, and someone might load up to replace them. all around you a computer pattern of life is living, and you might think you're having fun cos its jus like real life. but of course it isnt, you see no emotion in their face, or feel the doubt in your mind as your finger has to press in on a trigger. you might see some red liquid spurt out or a scream, but you wont feel a rush of adrenaline and fear with butterflies in your stomach.

but i wonder whatll happen when games get mega realistc... when you can be the murderer and see it and believe it

_____________________________
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max... dearest of all my friends!

DreamWraith
05-31-2004, 02:13 PM
the way i feel is that if you can commit mindless killing in a video game, MINDLESS, then it reflects on where you are spiritually.

Mindless killing for no reason is just that.

Theres a difference between saving civilization for the sake of fellow man, and destroying it for personal satisfaction.

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minihack
05-31-2004, 10:22 PM
This is a tough one. When I look at the beatitudes and Jesus says that we should look at ourselves and strive to emulate Him. Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom...blessed are the peacemakers...blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. This pulls one away from playin' a game and killing people (even if it is only make believe).

Everyone would agree that we shouldn't murder people (well, most people would think that). But Jesus goes a step further and says that if anyone is angry with someone then we are subject to judgment.

I'm just trying to work this all out. But something that has bothered me, is the whole "as long as it if fantasy" logic, that says that playing games like manhunt can be fine, because its not real violence, and just fantasy. I would find it hard to believe that Christ would play a fps with me if he were around (I didn't say WWJD because that whole thing bothers me to a degree).

I don't know. I have a kickin' computer and can play almost any game on "very high" settings. I enjoy fps games but certain things bother me about them. I'm still not sold on the fact that these games are ok if you just keep them in your mind. It's ok to kill Germans (in games) because they are the "bad" guys. Just before Christ died he prayed for the people who beat him up and inflected much pain on him.

DreamWraith
05-31-2004, 11:42 PM
i agree. i mean to a certain extent. like i said before, 'make-beleiving' that you are killing people to save the human race is cool. make beleiving that you are killing people for drug deals is not.

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BuddhaGamer
06-01-2004, 01:48 PM
Jesus saves... passes to Moses, SCOOOOORE!

(I know that's sacrilegious, but it's just so funny! No offence to any Christians...)

"Stuff your eyes with wonder... live as if you'd drop dead in ten seconds. See the world. It's more fantastic than any dream made or paid for in factories." - Ray Bradbury

spike_the_punch
06-01-2004, 02:55 PM
eek. i hope my previous post didn't lead anyone to beleive that i derive pleasure from the sort of things that occur in grand theft auto!!! i must assure you that i do not! i agree that games like that are MUCH different from something like doom, or farcry, or some sort of situation where you are the "good guy" trying to save earth/humanity/a girl/etc.

i do take issue with the way games like gta are made, but i still enjoy them, not because of the mindless killing, but because, unlike the games i just mentioned, it's never the same twice. you can go anywhere and do anything, and even after you ocmplete all of the missions, the game isn't "over" you can continure to drive around, try new things, explore, etc. in my mind, the killing and destruction is secondary. i hate violence and death (especially the senseless kind) just as much as you, and when i play any video gme that involves vioulence, no matter what the ultimate point of the game is, i keep the fact that it's a game in the back of my mind. i try to avioud doing things that would be against my faith (like randomly shooting a passerby or some such act), because i take my faith very seriously.

i also agree with what minihack said; that Jesus probably wouldn't sit down and play one of these games with me. that leads me to question whether i should be playing these games as well.

i think i'm gonna sit back for a while and think long and hard about all of this--it really is an important question, and the various outcomes/answers, IMO, reflect on where our society is today. so props to you guys (and the millions of outher out there who are just like you) for sticking to your guns and not flinching back from what you believe
in.

EDIT: Just a thought, but as long as the issue of killing for "pleasure" vs. killing to achieve a goal or as the "good guy" has been raised...what about MultiPlayer, specifically DeathMatch or FFA? Wouldn't those fall under the category of "senseless" killing or something similar? Again, just a thought, not trying to start any fights or anything of the sort.

God Bless America!

"Those who have long enjoyed such priveleges as we enjoy forget in time that men have died to win them." --Franklin D. Roosevelt

[This message was edited by spike_the_punch on Tue June 01 2004 at 02:10 PM.]

minihack
06-01-2004, 05:47 PM
I would agree with you spike that games can be very interesting in that they have great "replay" value. I liked Deus Ex because you could play it different and use stealth instead of violence. But to be honest I liked the sniper option a bit too much.

But this whole discussion on "reality vs. fantasy" is not thought out too well. Jesus says if you hate your brother even *in your heart* you have committed *murder*! It could be argued that hating someone in your heart is okay, because you didn't actually kill them; it was a "fantasy" but I think Jesus was accurate when he said those words. I wonder a lot how desensitized we really are to so many things of this culture (myself included).

Anyways, I appreciate everyone's views here. And yes, that whole deathmatch thing does fall into that "senseless" killing category (I never really thought about that before, good point spike/punch guy).

I still holding on to the viewpoint that certain games are ok but the more I think about it the more I really wonder.

DreamWraith
06-01-2004, 06:19 PM
as far as deathmatch and such, although the game style is deathmatch it is essentially just a 'tiny' part of a bigger battle' the concept is derived from 'getting focused narrowly' and a part of a battle. for example, a deathmatch in bf1942, would in reality be a skirmish between germans and americans. follow my point?

as far as FFA... i would lean more towards an anarchy in which all are vying for control... trying to attain some semblance of order.

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spike_the_punch
06-01-2004, 09:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by minihack:
I still holding on to the viewpoint that certain games are ok but the more I think about it the more I really wonder.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

indeed...i feel the same way. i have a lot of thinking to do...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DreamWraith:
as far as deathmatch and such, although the game style is deathmatch it is essentially just a 'tiny' part of a bigger battle' the concept is derived from 'getting focused narrowly' and a part of a battle. for example, a deathmatch in bf1942, would in reality be a skirmish between germans and americans. follow my point?

as far as FFA... i would lean more towards an anarchy in which all are vying for control... trying to attain some semblance of order.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know about that--thinking that deeply into it might be taking it a little too far; by that I mean you might be trying too hard to justify something that you just can't/shouldn't be doing that to. But that's just my opinion at the moment--please don't take offense to it.

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God Bless America!

"Those who have long enjoyed such priveleges as we enjoy forget in time that men have died to win them." --Franklin D. Roosevelt

DreamWraith
06-01-2004, 10:39 PM
none taken. im just rationalizing thought here. in the end it comes down to the following:

what is in your mind when your doing what your doing?

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minihack
06-02-2004, 05:35 AM
Your actions go along with your thoughts as well. The two can't be seperated. For example, "I'm sure it's possible to watch porn and think about writing your next sermon." You see how silly that last statement was. I know it's an extreme but it states a point.

minihack
06-02-2004, 05:40 AM
Ultimately it depends on your close relationship with God. I don't mean that as a slam to anyone. I know that is what I seek but being human I fail everyday. I'm lucky that there is a litlle something called "Grace" because somedays I feel like the biggest sinner out there.

Steelhed
06-02-2004, 06:32 PM
This is a real valid subject... I also restle with my values on this one.. I am a man of faith, But not really a practicing man of faith, therefore I play these Violent FPS's.. But Deep down, I don't think God appreciates any kind advocation to Violence.. Will it make people go out and Joint the forces?, I don't know, Will it desensitize people to be constantly in murderous competition?, I don't know, Cause it doesn't make me want to do anything of the sort, and I loath War and murder.. But I don't feel that God is all that Enthuzed about me playing a game that virtually re-creates what has pained god this whole time.. But man, Do I ever love my wargames... As someone said, It's really a matter of your relationship with god, and what you know to be in accordance with his will.. Remember, I am not aiming this at anyone, I am fully addicted to BF/DC and Farcry even though I despise war... But all in all, It's good to see someone raise this subject.. It's kinda like, If you went to Iraq, and watched your buddies, and enemies dying right and left, Blood and guts all over the place, Nightmares etc, And then came home, Would you play a wargame like BF or FC? Or, If you had a relative that has died in a horrible manner, would you still be able to look at Rotten.com in the same light? Food for thought..

minihack
06-02-2004, 07:08 PM
Often we don't realize that we are accountable for all our actions...regardless of what they may be. But the good news is that God desires a living/daily relationship with every one of us. We don't have to be perfect since nobody is anyways (here I go preaching again). It is true though. God actively seeks us out. We just have to respond to Him.

Anyways, I will continue to think about this. I do agree with you Steelhed in that I love FC and many other pc games (including Joint Operations!). These games are fun in that they look very cool (graphic wise) and you can play against others (Joint Opps - over 150 people at a time with hardly any lag!). Thanks again for all your responses to this topic (even BuddhaGamer...I don't think your joke was sacrilegious...just a bit silly.)

I am amazed that nobody mocked this whole discussion though (Maybe some 13 year olds will prove me wrong).

poppachocks1
06-02-2004, 09:21 PM
I see it as an escape for a short time. Nothing more. Do I feel like I want to take a gun and blow a few people away? Only when I'm driving..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

minihack
06-03-2004, 05:47 AM
Ya, i doubt that I would ever go out and kill someone (except for some of my drop-in kids at my youth center...pressure building...must keep it deep down inside...). I think the point "for me" is that yes, it is a short escape from reality, but is it a vaild one in relation to my walk with God?

I think I may have already answered myself.

johns1234
06-22-2004, 05:44 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by minihack:
This is a tough one. When I look at the beatitudes and Jesus says that we should look at ourselves and strive to emulate Him.

One of the goals of psychotherapy is to help
a person realize that their social personality
comes from sublimating all the basic instincts
that are contained in their individual personality. However, these suppressed drives
are very powerful, and can exist at a level
in the psyche ( mind ) that becomes unreachable
and yet can exert extreme pressure on a persons
feelings and behavior .. sometimes to the point
that the individual can not resist that pressure ... leading to behaviors that seem
totally out of character. For example, the
serious problem Catholic Priests seem to be
having with child abuse. Priests are forced by
their faith to renounce sexual relations. The
process by which they do this is incompetent,
and leads to irresistable pressures. The goal
of therapy is to bring out from the subconscious, these buried drives, and understand how they are willingly held in check
and thus reducing their influence. Our
personality is a duality of opposites which
we understand and make mature decisions about.
We do this through an active imagination ..
not by guilt associations and trying to bury
what cannot be buried, but only remoted .. to
remain as an unreachable and cruel drive in
our subconscious. These computer games are
indeed training simulators that work for police, soldiers, athletes, on and on .. and
a game like Far Cry does make you a trained
combatant. You know things about combat that
the police wish you did not know. What does
that mean? Are you going into the street with
your trusty M4 and have it out with legal
forces? Nonsense. If anything, you know what
these guys are up against and respect it even
more. I respect a policeman or a soldier who
has to go in harms way to keep our country
safe. I understand them better because I have
sensed what they go through. And, would you
think of them as failing to emulate Jesus?
Or would you be able to make a mature judgement
about where we "draw these lines in the sand?"
Would you walk through Hell itself to save
Valerie? Or would you bless the Mercs ? :-)

RRhoades
06-23-2004, 11:29 PM
If any1 has doubts about wether they should play a video game because of spiritual or moral issues then they should probably not play them. If you feel convicted or uncomfortable with the elements of the game then I would suggest that the game is not for you. This is obviously a personal decision that each person of faith has to reconcile themselves with. It doesnt neccesarily mean that any said game is bad for an entire group of people-it merely means that it poses issues of doubt or uncertainty to some individuals which leads them to question their belief system. If playing a game causes you to question that belief system then it is highly probable that the game isnt for that individual.

Have fun and take care in whatever you do!