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Nervous
06-07-2005, 01:11 PM
I was thinking about heroes who retreat or surrender. Will they come back the same? How about the strategy of entering the battle with only one fast creature, cast implosion or chain lightning, then retreat. You can do it several times, weakening your opponentâ´s army, losing only one creature!

I think heroes who retreat or surrender should have a penalty, maybe less one or two points of moral for the next __ batlles or until he gets __ points of experience.

This is one idea, there can be others, but I think retreating should not be a strategy, or, at least, have some penalty.

Nervous
06-07-2005, 01:11 PM
I was thinking about heroes who retreat or surrender. Will they come back the same? How about the strategy of entering the battle with only one fast creature, cast implosion or chain lightning, then retreat. You can do it several times, weakening your opponentâ´s army, losing only one creature!

I think heroes who retreat or surrender should have a penalty, maybe less one or two points of moral for the next __ batlles or until he gets __ points of experience.

This is one idea, there can be others, but I think retreating should not be a strategy, or, at least, have some penalty.

Polaris2013
06-07-2005, 01:20 PM
Why is it that a high level hero with a lot of artifacts costs just as much to recruit from the pool as a level 1 hero?

That never made sense to me.

Nervous
06-07-2005, 01:29 PM
This is an interesting idea. The higher the hero level and the more artifacts he has, more expensive should be to buy him back on the taverns.

Arzang
06-07-2005, 02:08 PM
I want to see the hero recruiting system totally revamped.

maybe each heroe should have a different loyalty factor. to balance out their special skills.

or maybe not.

Dink-the-Mink
06-07-2005, 02:17 PM
That is an interesting topic.
Maybe heroes not belonging to your alignment shoudl have lower morale or get less exp or sth.
And I like that cost-idea based on hero-level/arties/skills.
Maybe also a mighty Genie will want more money than a Knight, fighting for honor and his king?

reg
****

Kareeah_Indaga
06-07-2005, 03:03 PM
This may have been suggested before, but:

What if, instead of all your troops disappearing when your hero retreated, about 25% of them stayed (which ones remain being random, so you could just as easily end up with your level sevens as your level ones), with a bonus to that added for Leadership, and maybe a creature with an ability that made it more loyal (more likely to remain). And instead of returning to the tavern, the retreating hero and his/her army disappeared for a while (maybe time-to-reappearance = (distance-to-nearest-town*125%)/hero-movement-in-a-day) then reappeared outside your nearest town? So they would be no balancing issue with heroes who are level 30 being hired at the same cost as level 5, the enemy wouldn’t end up with your hero (or vice-versa), and it wouldn’t be as easy to use the retreat function as a teleporter like in Heroes III. And maybe add in a chance to drop unequipped artifacts, as well? All that would hopefully put a damper on the attack-with-one-unit-spell-cast-and-retreat tactic. (And then it should be possible to retreat with campaign heroes without triggering a loss!)

Dark_Magiks
06-07-2005, 03:34 PM
Well me and my mates have disscussed this issue alot, as through most HoMM's this has been the biggest pain in the ***. I hated the **** computer players who ALWAYS, retreated if the outcome looked bleak, and you end up with alot less exp and no artifacts, for your time, good strategy and valuable creatures. I remember in HoMM2 not long ago we played a 2 player hotseat, and our army was superior to the computer each and must of been attacked by about 2-3 heroes a turn (from the 3 separate comp players) and they always cast lightning bolt and retreated. I say you should loose all unequiped artifacts, as stated by Kareeah_Indaga, it is a great idea, also you should get a large moral bonus and/or exp bonus for the enemy fleeing before the battle was over, as you and your troops would feel much more up beat if this wa the scenario.

KingImp
06-07-2005, 10:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Polaris2013:
Why is it that a high level hero with a lot of artifacts costs just as much to recruit from the pool as a level 1 hero?

That never made sense to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Nervous:
This is an interesting idea. The higher the hero level and the more artifacts he has, more expensive should be to buy him back on the taverns. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't believe this has never crossed my mind. I love this idea and it makes perfect sense.
You want that Level 20 hero so bad? Well, you better have the money for it. Otherwise, back into the hero pool he/she goes.

GhostDracolich
06-08-2005, 12:44 AM
Surprisingly, this cheesy tactic was not in Heroes 4... Wow... Heroes 4 did something right.

But then again, Heroes 4 returned your hero to town without being re-hired/Punished.

Penguinslayer
06-08-2005, 02:32 AM
Maybe you could make it so that heroes that retreat can only be rehired the day after, or perhaps you could redo the retreat function so it doesn't work in the same way. Either this or your best town could automatically blow up if you use lame tactics.

Un_Porc
06-08-2005, 04:37 AM
I sugest simply introducing a retreat delay... something like 3 turns would be great because a low lvl hero with 1 creature would be dead in this part. The retreat should be like in H4, but with a delay in getting him back (recovery time). If you need him back FAST, spend some money depending on lvl/skills/equipment. As for surrender, it should be either removed or renamed into "Buy the right to live"(made more expensive).

Aseved
06-08-2005, 08:28 AM
My suggestion -

1. As stated, add a time to reach the town (caravan the hero to the nearest town at 1/2 normal speed would be good)

2. Drop 25-50% of artifacts while retreating.

3. Keep "abandoned" creatures fighting as neutrals for 1 turn (more chance to get XP to the hero that stayed)

4. Introduce a "fame" stat to the hero. Basically a ratio ((battles won against other hero)+(battles won against top level neutrals))/((battles lost)+2*(battles retreated)). Fame would have an influence on morale for the hero army, as well has maybe being necessary for certain adventure buildings (xanadu,...) (and also could be used as quest options).

However, on the other hand...

- If a hero loses a battle, give him 50% of the experience of the creatures killed. (you can learn of your errors, anyway)

- If he retreats after at least 2 turns (no armagedoon strategies), give him 25%-33% of the experience. (You can also learn from that, but thinking about how to escape made you learn less :P)

UndeadDontDie
06-08-2005, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aseved:
(no armagedoon strategies) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lol, reminds me of the time I defeated a dragon utopia with a single stack of black dragon and a hero with a whole lot of spell power =P

Anyway, I think that making it so it takes the hero a turn or two to be available for re-recruitment is good enough. But I also like the idea that his creatures will remain as a neutral stack, so the hero who defeated him could still gain all of the expirience he deserves. I also think you should recieve an XP bonus for making an enemy hero retreat, maybe 1000*(enemy hero level) XP for defeating a powerful hero, even if you only made him retreat.

Nervous
06-08-2005, 10:35 AM
I had a new idea now. Maybe there should be 3 possibilities, not 2:

1 - Decline - you pay for your troops.

2 - Surrender - you lose your troops AND all your atifacts, the enemy gains experience.

3 - Escape - you try to scape, having a chece of x% of doing in, x calculated by the diference of power in armies or something else, I didnâ´t think about it yet. If you succeed, you keep 80% of you armies - some will die in the escape - and keep your artifacts. If you are not successfull, you lose part of your army in th try - maybe 20% - but stay in battle at least for 1 more turn.

JoostJens
06-09-2005, 12:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Penalty for retreating or surrendering </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you should lose some (not all) of your troops if you retreat (flee) and none if you surrender (you pay for it off course http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Salventus
06-09-2005, 07:51 PM
They should improve on these areas:

1.Retreating shoudn't be automatic.
2.Retreating shoudn't be like a town portal spell.

DragonFly_CH
06-10-2005, 12:04 AM
I find this topic is very interesting and many persons here propose many creative and great ideas.

In my opinion, there are several methods which can be adopted to improve the system. AT this time, i'd like to propose one of them.

1. Set a parameter about loyalty for every heros, from 0 to 100. Every recruited heros at first time has an initial loyalty number(for instance 75). When this hero win in battle, this parameter will increase(for instance increase 10 points), otherwise, if this hero lost in battle, weather he/she is defeated or surrender or retreat, the parameter will decrease. If this parameter is under 20, the hero will unavailable for player for ever. If this parameter is between 20 to 60, the hero will disappear and unavailable for a period(for example 4 weeks if the parameter is 20,1 weeks if the parameter is 50).Then the hero will regain some points as he appear next time,but sure under 60. Only those heros whose loyalty parameter is above 60 will surely appear in tavern if he/she is retreat or surrender in battle. In addition, if one hero is dismissed by player, then the parameter will decrease directly to zero(you discard him/her,so he/she will disappear a more long time.It is reasonable.)

JoostJens
06-10-2005, 12:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Salventus:
They should improve on these areas:

1.Retreating shoudn't be automatic.
2.Retreating shoudn't be like a town portal spell. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought the town portal spell in homm IV that could be use in battle was cool. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DreamWalker1985
06-13-2005, 06:59 PM
i also think that the retreat musn't be like town portal. I suggest that the retreating army will lose some of its troops for delaying the attacking army and this gives the retreating army a chance to move on the map. This would me more logical.

GuyOfDoom
06-14-2005, 01:50 PM
I'm not sure if all of you are talking about H3 or H4. In H4 there is a vast difference between retreating and surrendering. Retreating was somewhat cheesy IMHO if you just had a solo character walking around as they had no penalty for running away as they had no troops to lose. I think the current cost factor for surrendering and losing troops for retreating in H4 is fine, although an additional possibility of losing artifacts might be nice to make it a little bit more hurtful.