Why?

[Chris472]

I heard this game is going to be in a sort of slide show format. That really stinks why would they do this with all the technology they have??? How can this game be immersive if it is not in 3D? Im just hope that I heard wrong. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Chris472]

I heard this game is going to be in a sort of slide show format. That really stinks why would they do this with all the technology they have??? How can this game be immersive if it is not in 3D? Im just hope that I heard wrong. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[AFGNCAAP]

Yes that is correct. Revelation is going to be pre-rendered. There are already some other threads about it.

Personally, I like the idea of it being pre-rendered because...
1. Quality will be better (photorealistic)
2. More accessible to more computers
3. "Myst-like"
4. Ummm... and other reasons listed in the other threads http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

If you read Sri's review (I think...or was it the blog, or another article (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=311106333&m=270104024) - Scroll down to Maz's post), they've managed to do things with it to make it feel less slide show like.

[JustBrett]

"Immersive" is something that really happens in your head, not on a screen. A good book can be immersive. If the material -- book, game, movie, music, or whatever -- captures your imagination and focuses your mind, then it's immersive, regardless of the format. (Of course, it's generally easier to immerse yourself in something that engages more of your senses. So, I'm not downplaying the efforts of Team Rev to produce outstanding art and environmental effects! But engaging the senses isn't enough. It has to engage your mind to be truly immersive, and I think Revelation is positioned to do that.)

*SLMW 1.0* No animals were harmed in the production of this message.

[nakita7]

So, correct me if I'm wrong then, Exile and Uru are NOT 'pre-rendered'? Is that right?

[AFGNCAAP]

URU is not pre-rendered. Myst, Riven and Exile are pre-rendered.

[Chris472]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nakita7:
So, correct me if I'm wrong then, Exile and Uru are NOT 'pre-rendered'? Is that right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only Myst game I played is uru and thats NOT Pre-rendered.

[Coronagold]

This is 2004. 3D games have limited graphic renders/rendering time to them. It's still a fairly new concept. In 2008, ask again. Fully photographical 3D might be commonplace by then.

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[Srikandi]

Chris -- it's pre-rendered, but it's anything but a slideshow. Like Exile, the scene is rendered in a bubble, so you have full 360 view. But compared to all the earlier games, and any other prerendered game I've seen for that matter, it has much more movement and interactivity -- more than most full 3D games. There are something like 15 layers of video in each scene... lots of particle effects, animated textures, rippling water that you can touch, creatures that respond to your actions, moving skies, changing light and so on.

It looks and feels fantastically real -- wait'll you play it! We're hoping for a demo this summer sometime.

Sri's Relto (http://members.cox.net/srikandi/Uru/)

[matt myat]

It's reasonable to be biased towards or away from pre-rendered, this is justifiably a personal preferance.

A major difference between pre-rendered and real-time 3d is in level of detail and freedom of movement respectively. Some people prefer one or the other. The weird thing is that "emersiveness", most often wanted from a game like this, is not inherent to either method, it depends on what the players themselves find to be more emersive (detail or freedom)

But besides freedom of movement, emersion can come from photorealistic graphics, soundtrack, characters, and story, so Revelation shouldn't fall short on this.

As Sri said, Revelation will be far from a slideshow, Ubi are making the most use of recent technology and speedy machines but in a different direction, with different technology - they are compositing layers to accompish an unprecedented level of realism and interactivity for this level of detail!

[This message was edited by matt myat on Sun June 13 2004 at 02:53 AM.]

[Eat_My_Shortz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The only Myst game I played is uru and thats NOT Pre-rendered.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, Chris, you've got a lot to catch up on!
For most of us Uru's 3D style was a bit of a shock.
Most people have complained in one way or another about Uru's action-style puzzles and jumping requirements.
You're the first person I've heard to complain about the other side!

Now I'm fairly impartial, I love Uru and I love realMyst but when I heard about Myst IV I just felt very strongly that it should be pre-rendered.
I think in making uru real-time, they've lost some of the immersion, which is OK because Uru is more of an "adventure" than a "feeling" which is what the other games are.

If you want it to be fully immersive, you really need to go with pre-rendered. What they've done in Revelation, however, seems to have the absolute best of both worlds. As Sri and Matt have already pointed out, its going to feel like a 3D game, in terms of life in the world, and interactivity with the world, and also feel like a bubble game in terms of the immersion, and the extremely realistic graphics.

It just sounds like you haven't put any thought into this post - and just gone "well that sounds awful" and come on here to vent. Which is OK (shoulda been here for the collapse of Uru Live!) - but I think you'll love this game once it comes out for what it is, and that is yet another highly distinct component of a series of games which all have various strengths and different feels to them.

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The gathered will tell... Cool I'm one of the gathered!

[CAGrayWolf]

*I'm like so totally upset that I get no credit for my own reviews of Myst IV and that Sri does get all the credit ... it's obvious who you all like better* ***cries***


*Yes, I only joking!* http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

A Fan's perspective on Myst IV: Revelation **Spoilers** (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=774101533&m=580100224)

Perhaps the ending has not yet been written!

http://www.dnijazzclub.com/mwsc/bnr006.gif (http://store.ubi.com/item.jsp?item=008888682028&category=PC)

[Mowog]

I can see both sides. I was thoroughly impressed with every one of the pre-rendered titles, perhaps especially so with Exile. Seems like I'm one of the few who places Exile up there with Riven in my Myst rankings. Having said that, I'll add that I was blown away by Uru. The 3D approach was new to me, as I'm not really into the genres that seem to feature 3D. Aside from watching some friends play Counter Strike, Uru was really my first experience in 3D. Uru managed to use 3D while suffusing the environments with a stunning degree of detail, and I was hooked. Plus, it was a relief to not have to swap disks throughout the adventure, as is usually the case with pre-rendered titles.

So I've enjoyed them all, and would certainly enjoy re-playing the whole saga... but admittedly I would miss the near-complete freedom of movement that we have in Uru. They were all immersive, but Uru just seemed more so, since I could follow my natural curiosity by walking and pausing to admire ANY detail, instead of watching interesting bits flow past while "walking" by animating through a predetermined path.

Sounds like Ubi have outdone themselves with Revelation though, and I'm anticipating it keenly. Sounds fantastic!

http://www.ketcherside.net/mowog.jpg

Q: "What's even better than playing Uru?"
A: "Playing Uru in stereo 3D!"

[Srikandi]

My all-time favorite game before Uru was Morrowind, so I am definitely a 3D-oriented person. And Wolf, not to take his name in vain, has a certain fondness for Doom... so he is too. The question is, could a game break down that dichotomy, so that you aren't constantly aware while playing which technology is being used? Both Wolf and I felt that M4 might be that game, and the devs who were at E3 have reported that people kept asking "you mean it really isn't 3D?"

Most full-3D games, while they appear to give full freedom of movement, actually channel the player along narrow paths... so in fact you don't really see any more of the world than you would in a node-based game. When I played RealMyst, I was interested to note that although I could now theoretically go anywhere I wanted to, in fact, I was pretty much stuck with exactly the same places Myst let me go. This was even true in Rime, which was developed in full 3D.

In a few of Uru's locations, like the desert, you have great freedom of movement; but in most areas, like the Cleft, Eder Gira, and Teledahn, you are channeled along narrow paths (why do you think tunnels, corridors, walkways and bridges are so popular? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) and wind up having just the same kind of experience that a well-designed node-based game could give you.

We shall see, but I think M4 is going to do a lot to erase this distinction in the gameplay experience, much as modern graphics programs have largely erased the dicohotomy between bitmap and vector graphics.

Sri's Relto (http://members.cox.net/srikandi/Uru/)

[Coronagold]

Revelation will use Exile-style 360 degree nodes? That's good. I like that style of exploring for pre-rendered imagery.

http://img36.photobucket.com/albums/v108/sargem/POTS_copy.jpg http://www.dnijazzclub.com/mwsc/bnr006.gif (http://store.ubi.com/item.jsp?item=008888682028&category=PC)

[Chris472]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eat_My_Shortz:
Most people have complained in one way or another about Uru's action-style puzzles and jumping requirements.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I liked being able to jump.

The problem with pre-rendered games is that one minute your standing in one spot then when you click you just instently apper in another spot. Even my parents played a pre-rendered game a long time ago. The said it was the most frustrating thing they had ever seen. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

[Eat_My_Shortz]

OK on that click thing I guess its a matter of taste. But consider that the click-teleport thing is the only "negative" (if you consider it as such) that Revelation has compared to all the positives.

Interestingly, did anyone ever play a wierd game called "9: The Last Resort"???
Its very very rare I don't know how it ended up in my hands (it was a gift). I swear its the wierdest game I've ever played.
Its very much like Myst except that theyve added just bizzare things into it.
Anyway, the reason I bring it up is that it had nodular movement like Myst/Riven (slideshow/no bubble).
Now you may remember Riven had a bit of a coping mechanism - when you turn to the side it slides the two pictures into each other. Well Nine had something fantastic - when you clicked forward it would play a very quick walk animation (about 3 frames) in between every single node! I don't know if it zooms the image or if they rendered a little animation for every location but this was quite amazing!

Also if anyone played the more popular yet still very underrated "The Neverhood" - that was partially first-person Myst-style and partially third-person Monkey Island style.
They actually played a complete walk animation between every node - not 3 frames but about 4 seconds of video between every node.
Albeit 1) The first-person game wasnt very big since a lot of the scenes were in 3rd person, and 2) they didnt render it in 3D - the whole game was made out of Klay.

Just some interesting ways of doing things. Both of these games btw were absolutely fantastic and if you ever see them (I doubt it) you should buy it or you'll miss out on some great puzzles and story!

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The gathered will tell... Cool I'm one of the gathered!

[Coronagold]

9:The Last Resort is in JA's Hall Of Shame. I had that game back when I had a Mac. I thought is was visually great, though rediculously hard.

I'm currently playing The Neverhood for the 1st time (the cheapo warez version). It's fun, but that hallway of stories is rediculously long. Retentive.

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[This message was edited by Coronagold on Mon June 14 2004 at 07:08 AM.]

[Alahmnat]

Journeyman Project 3 used animated transitions between bubbles, and Reah, Schizm, and likely Schizm 2 all do as well, and the one thing I can definitively say about them is that they require an incomprehensible amount of disc space that just grows at a near-exponential rate the more territory you're allowed to explore. In schizm especially, this was a clear problem because they had to reduce the quality of the stills so much, even for the DVD version, that some areas were almost unplayable for me (and in addition to needing a PhD in math to solve the puzzles, I gave up very quickly).

Aside from that, they sometimes take a very long time (if the transitions are animated there's often no need for as many nodes so you can keep track of your surroundings), in Schizm you can't skip them, so they slow down gameplay, and eventually they become, in my opinion, a tediuos annoyance more than a benefit to the game.

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Uru and Myst Forum Moderator / Community Assistant
Please note: I do not respond to Private Topics dealing with technical support or hint requests for the Myst series

[Srikandi]

I played 9, and liked it.

Sri's Relto (http://members.cox.net/srikandi/Uru/)

[Chris472]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eat_My_Shortz:
Also if anyone played the more popular yet still very underrated "The Neverhood"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow I played the neverhood! I loved that game! Never finished it though.

[Pat_09]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>They actually played a complete walk animation between every node - not 3 frames but about 4 seconds of a video between every node. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We actually considered doing that for a long time.

We finally decided against it, mainly for the following reasons:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Journeyman Project 3 used animated transitions between bubbles, and Reah, Schizm, and likely Schizm 2 all do as well, and the one thing I can definitively say about them is that they require an incomprehensible amount of disc space that just grows at a near-exponential rate the more territory you're allowed to explore. In schizm especially, this was a clear problem because they had to reduce the quality of the stills so much, even for the DVD version, that some areas were almost unplayable for me (and in addition to needing a PhD in math to solve the puzzles, I gave up very quickly).

Aside from that, they sometimes take a very long time (if the transitions are animated there's often no need for as many nodes so you can keep track of your surroundings), in Schizm you can't skip them, so they slow down gameplay, and eventually they become, in my opinion, a tediuos annoyance more than a benefit to the game.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


But yeah, it IS a disadvantage of 2D over 3D. Only for about 5 minutes (cause then your mind fills in the blanks and you're HAPPY not to have to put up with a slow transition), but indeed, these initial 5 minutes give leave a negative impression on a lot of people's minds...

As for the rest, it's be simplistic to say a game can't be good because it's not in 3D. You'd have to overlook everything that actually makes UP the game.

But yeah, you can't jump, so I guess it sucks for that... Good point,

A+

Pat

[Eat_My_Shortz]

No Pat don't get yourself down!!!

I wouldn't say the bubble/skip thing is a disadvantage at all! It really doesnt disturb me.

Note that I said "the click-teleport thing is the only "negative" (if you consider it as such)"

I am very glad you decided not to make animations between points. I think they do get tedious, just like in Riven if u recall that rotating gate room puzzle - the videos there got really repetitive and I think most people will be skipping them after a few goes.

It would be even worse in a bubble game. In Exile, whenever a full-screen video had to play, the camera would rotate to the correct angle which was OK (I just wish you could skip that as if it was a video - hint hint Pat!!!). But I wouldn't like to have to wait for the camera to rotate every time you move so that the video can play from the correct start angle.

If you're worried about the negative impression of the first 5 minutes, I think players of a brand new FPA (especially one THIS far ahead of every other one) will not even NOTICE it in the first 5 minutes!
OK Pat your goal is to make an opening to the game so mind-blowing that the doomsayers here won't notice the nodular gameplay? Got that! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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The gathered will tell... Cool I'm one of the gathered!

[Eat_My_Shortz]

Oh and on those 2 games I mentioned:

9:
You guys who said u played it - did u just play it or actually finish it?
Its probably the hardest adventure I've played, harder than Uru. But I recommend you get a walkthrough and solve it, because you'll "get" it a lot better once its all solved.
The coolest thing about this that I've never seen in another game is the code.
I mean Riven had a pretty large-scale code puzzle, the eyeballs and domes coordinates puzzle.
But 9 has this code puzzle you find at the start which is very simple and you go "uhuh that was easy". But then as you progress you find out more and more deep layers of the code, and figure out how the original code was just a simplified subset of the large code. And at the end of the game you have to quickly manipulate the full-on complex code in real time. It is absolutely riveting.
Summary: PLAY IT TO THE END BEFORE U DISH IT!

Neverhood:
Yeah I actually read all the writing on the wall! There are 40 screens I think. What do u think has more writing? The Neverhood wall, or the Uru To D'ni Kings Histories? (I'm reading the kings now).

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[Eat_My_Shortz]

What Chris loved the Neverhood? Well how could you love the Neverhood and then not like the look of Myst IV? The Neverhood wasnt 3D!

Anyway, I just read the 9 review on JustAdventure. It made me laugh!
It was mostly positive, but then all the negative things he said about the game I loved (like the code puzzle I told u about) - I think its a work of genius.
Oh except the bug which meant you could very easily make the game impossible to complete. Didn't like that!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>But, in a final twist of the knife to the hapless gamer, in a game that featured the voices of Jim Belushi, Cher, and Steve Tyler, the only star who sings in the final number is ... Jim Belushi. Now that's just mean.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lol
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[Nebodin]

I am so pleased that the transitions aren't animated. I played Journeyman 3 and I definitely agree that animated transitions are annoying and tedious. The main thing about them that sux is that you can't look around when you are moving anyway, so you dont actually get to see anything that you couldn't see from either end of the transition.

Moreover I thought it actually destroyed the immersiveness of the game. Every time you wanted to move somewhere you were snapped out of what you were doing as the camera stopped, moved to face a certain direction, and then played a boring video of a walk. In the myst series you totally forget that fading transitions are even happening, its just you want to go over there, so you do. You don't really think about how you got there you just... did.

Animated transitions are cool when they are things like the mag-levs in riven or the lifts and slides in exile, but not for e v e r y - s i n g l e - s t e p - y o u - t a k e!

Well done Pat and revelation team, looks to me that you have thought about the pros and cons and come out with the best option by far.

[Eat_My_Shortz]

I was thinking about designing an adventure game and came up with an idea for movement - maybe you've thought of this (or could just implement it)... It could be quite handy.

Basically, the transitions look nice when you want to stare at the world and go "aah" and take nice slow steps, but become annoying when you want to race through the world clicking very rapidly through screens.
So I was thinking what if the time it took to fade was based on the amount of time you spent at the previous location:

transition time = A - A*e^(-k*wait time)
Where A is the user's normal selected "transition time", the maximum transition time, and k is a predetermined constant, k = 2 would be good.

Then, for example, let A = 0.5, k = 2, if you wait for a third of a second before clicking, the transition takes 0.5 seconds, if you wait 1 second, the transition takes 0.9 seconds, and if you wait 2 or more seconds, its just the normal 1 second fade.
And theres an option in the menu to turn this off...

Whaddya think?

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[matt myat]

sounds cool EMS, real clever idea!! but aren't you supposed to be studying for physics not posting in a million threads?! - sorry - got mates over in oz doing there exams now (i'm in NZ), you weren't at Sandringham college were you? I was there a couple a years back.

[AFGNCAAP]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CAGrayWolf:
*I'm like so totally upset that I get no credit for my own reviews of Myst IV and that Sri does get all the credit ... it's obvious who you all like better* ***cries***
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Graywolf. I'll run off and read your review right now. I'd offer you cookies as a consoliation but my cooking/baking is not fit for man nor beast. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

[Coronagold]

Pat09, if you published Revelation in Braille I'd still buy it. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I can't wait to see this visual hybrid. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://www.dnijazzclub.com/mwsc/bnr006.gif (http://store.ubi.com/item.jsp?item=008888682028&category=PC)

[Devokan80]

I don't like the animated movement at all. I felt it made it so much less immersive. I played Schizm and it had that and it was really just a big pain, and I couldn't move very fast (like in Riven I can "run" like the wind if I want to http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) Anyways I'm glad you went with no animations...

[Coronagold]

Me too. Save that much more info for character FMV & I'm satisfied.

http://www.dnijazzclub.com/mwsc/bnr006.gif (http://store.ubi.com/item.jsp?item=008888682028&category=PC)

[Eat_My_Shortz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>sounds cool EMS, real clever idea!! but aren't you supposed to be studying for physics not posting in a million threads?! - sorry - got mates over in oz doing there exams now (i'm in NZ), you weren't at Sandringham college were you? I was there a couple a years back.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah thats why I've been gone for a few days! Howd u remember I was studying physics.
(Matt has secret notes on all his friends!)

Well actually I was studying physics and suddenly thought about the equation to do it. It looks complicated but its really quite simple - if you graph it on a Graphics Calculator you'll see how simple it really is.

So you're an aussie boy, Matt? No I'm at Melbourne Uni. Anyway it wasnt a million it was 520. Oops 521!

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The gathered will tell... Cool I'm one of the gathered!

[matt myat]

EMS, how did you find out about all my secret notes?!

Well first of all, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif I'd noted you were a good old aussie and when you mentioned studying for physics i thought i mighta remembered u from oz (tho i must admit - melb's a lot bigger than wellington!) One of my mates at uni over there's failing physics miserably - and he's a real bright dude!

I suppose your on holiday too now? grrr... and I'm still looking for work!!!

Hey cool, i've finally got an excuse to get out my graphics calculator... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Eat_My_Shortz]

Hehe.

You "thought you might remember me"??? Geez how many Aussies do you know?

Hey did u remember my name's Matt too? It got confusing when you showed up last month and everyone started saying "Hey, Matt"...

Hmmm... maybe I'll remember you from Lord of the Rings... you must have been in that right? Ur from NZ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

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[matt myat]

hehe, yeah I remember details like that

grr... nah wasn't in LOTR, but I'm trying for work at Weta Digital (guys who did SFX for it) - they're across the road from where I live http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

anyways, i think the Matts have kinda killed this thread! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

[Eat_My_Shortz]

Yeah we did. Come out out guys lets have a normal convo again!

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The gathered will tell... Cool I'm one of the gathered!

[Eat_My_Shortz]

No? I guess its at its end. Terminated by the Matts.

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The gathered will tell... Cool I'm one of the gathered!

[Srikandi]

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif A thread on this forum going OT? No way!

LOL -- when the forums get active right after the game comes out, I'll start cracking down. Until then, we're just trying to keep each other amused between now and Sept.

In the meantime, glad we could play some part in reuniting two old Matts -- er -- mates!

Sri's Relto (http://members.cox.net/srikandi/Uru/)

[earthangell]

hehe... gotta love Aussies!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/heart.gif

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Lei'arra in URU

To dance is to breathe...to breathe is to live....to live is to dance....

[Eat_My_Shortz]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>glad we could play some part in reuniting two old Matts -- er -- mates!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Err we've never met each other.

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[matt myat]

this forum still off topic?

yeah.. we aint met before... it's just me saying "hey, do i know u?" to every aussie i meet

nah... kidding... only aussies in melb http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Eat_My_Shortz]

Go Melb!

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