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View Full Version : OT...Another sad event.



Maverick_U2007
08-25-2007, 02:38 PM
I know that it has been a hard week for the friends of DBW and the apparent circumstances of such a tragic accident but something has happened in England this week that has hit many people hard, including myself.

Rees JONES was an 11 year old boy from a good home, was a perfectly respectable child who appears to have been a model schoolboy and whose main passion was football, he was in fact a mad 'Evertonian'.

This week whilst out playing football with his 'mates' he was killed 'execution style' by a shot to the neck. His mother cradled him for 45 minutes whilst the paramedics who arrived tried to save his life.

Is this country going mad or is it a trend that is happening worldwide. We have had 14 or 15 'children' under the age of 17 years killed in the past 12 months. The knife and gun culture had just exploded.

Why do kids find it necessary to kill other kids. This phenomenon has been 'brewing' for the past 3 or 4 years, but has now exploded to open 'warfare' on the streets.

I just want to put on record that I condemn any sort of gun/knife use and that the punishments should always fit the crime, although this never happens in this country due to the 'liberals' who have a lot of say.

The Police are making appeals for information as to who is responsible and I don't know but if anyone who visits this forum lives in the Croxteth area of Liverpool who knows anything at all, contact them and 'spill the beans' on whichever low life could commit such a despicable act.

(Sorry to go on but where else can you let of steam).

Maverick.....

Maverick_U2007
08-25-2007, 02:38 PM
I know that it has been a hard week for the friends of DBW and the apparent circumstances of such a tragic accident but something has happened in England this week that has hit many people hard, including myself.

Rees JONES was an 11 year old boy from a good home, was a perfectly respectable child who appears to have been a model schoolboy and whose main passion was football, he was in fact a mad 'Evertonian'.

This week whilst out playing football with his 'mates' he was killed 'execution style' by a shot to the neck. His mother cradled him for 45 minutes whilst the paramedics who arrived tried to save his life.

Is this country going mad or is it a trend that is happening worldwide. We have had 14 or 15 'children' under the age of 17 years killed in the past 12 months. The knife and gun culture had just exploded.

Why do kids find it necessary to kill other kids. This phenomenon has been 'brewing' for the past 3 or 4 years, but has now exploded to open 'warfare' on the streets.

I just want to put on record that I condemn any sort of gun/knife use and that the punishments should always fit the crime, although this never happens in this country due to the 'liberals' who have a lot of say.

The Police are making appeals for information as to who is responsible and I don't know but if anyone who visits this forum lives in the Croxteth area of Liverpool who knows anything at all, contact them and 'spill the beans' on whichever low life could commit such a despicable act.

(Sorry to go on but where else can you let of steam).

Maverick.....

Celeon999
08-26-2007, 02:10 AM
I heard of it in the news lately.

Unbelievable http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

AtlantikEel
08-26-2007, 02:24 AM
England is not the only country aflicted with a liberal court system.
Here in Canada the courts give the convicted criminal double credit for time held in custody while awaiting trial .... so if he is in custody 11 months, 22 months is knocked off of his sentence. Unbelievable, huh?
Also, a "life" sentence really means only 20 years, with parole eligability after two thirds of the sentence is served.
Both of the above are good reasons in favor of an ELECTED judiciary, where bad judgement may be voted out ... but I doubt that I will ever see that here.
As to the root cause of increased violence (youth or older), some will blame media, some will blame video games (this one included) and some will blame the parents for not raising the kid properly. All parents can really do is try to instill decent values of respect for others in their children, and hope that outside influences do not compromise those values.

AbleMaster
08-26-2007, 03:29 AM
Britain as a whole is suffering and has been for years. I cam understand why 400k emigrated last year and 600k people entered britain.
Whole of society is changing rapidly, and respect has been taken over by arrogance and bad attitude. Hell i may sound like me dad these days, i find myself saying in my day a lot. But its true, its time our law's and our government develeped a back bone.
This sad and brutal killing of a young boy would be less likely, if we changed our laws and our own attitudes, its time to wake up britain and sort it out now.

klcarroll
08-26-2007, 07:39 AM
First, let me say that I'm a parent, and I have raised three children. I have always believed that the death of any child is a tragedy:

But......, we live in an increasingly violent world: ......Some of the "factions" we share this world with even believe that random violence is a legitimate way of furthering their political goals.

Is it any surprise that this callous attitude has infiltrated our everyday lives??

While I mourn for the victims of this violence, and their families; .......I am no longer surprised by the frequency of the events.

Unfortunately, our governments have proven incapable of meeting the challenge of actually protecting us from this violence: .....If we are going to be "protected", we are going to have to do it ourselves.

klcarroll

M0ttie
08-26-2007, 03:22 PM
Sadly if we try and protect our own in the UK we get hammered by the law, yet see the police let these toe rags off because of some pathetic reason. My youngest when he was 10 was pushed off his bike right outside our house by our neighbours 18 year old. I resisted the temptation of 'having a word' and reported it to the Police. Nothing was done, oh we had a visit and were advised it was a domestic matter!. It might have had something to do with the 18yr olds dad being a Police officer - but surely that wasn't a factor?. The trouble is there are too many people making excuses for these offenders, no father figure, poor home, council estate with no opportunities etc etc.
Load of old ****.......
My dad died when I was 4, raised by my mother on a council estate in Cheshire. Just to make sure you know I'm not anti Police I actually did 20 years in the Police Service before taking a medical retirement due to injuries sustained at work rather than stay in as a non operational officer in what was in 1999 a rapidly deteriorating service. I'm now a facilities manager for a global company.
Its not the kids background, its what they want.
Its been made too easy in the UK, they are always being told they can do what they want, when they want and how they want and no ones got the right to tell them to do otherwise.
I signed an E petition a while back regarding the release of the 2 kids that killed Jamie Boulger, they were being released with new ID's and if I recall relocated to Australia!. Dont quote me there but the petition detailed what these 2 actually did to the poor kid and it wasn't just kill him - he was tortured. I dont care what anyone says, if your sick enough to do what they did at their age then there's nothing you can do to treat that sort of mind.
This country's gone to rat **** as they say, my youngest is now 13 and as soon as he's settled were off...... all my former colleagues are counting the days until they can get out of the Police and take their pensions and I dont know one I worked with who wont openly state the force is now a virtual waste of space with all the paperwork, social reports and no say in who gets prosecuted or not once the file is submitted. Yes the Crown Prosecution Service has a better prosecution rate than the Police, its because they are all solicitors and know the law better. Wrong, the Police would put into Court say the 50% certs, plus the 25% 'let the magiostrates decide' cases binning the remaining 25% no hopers. The CPS wont run a case unless they are more or less certain of a conviction so where the Police ran 75% of the total and got a 60% win rate the CPS run certs hence the 90% or whatever it is win rate.
A fiddling of figures, not the only one I know of either.
Rant over...........

klcarroll
08-26-2007, 04:04 PM
MOttie;

I certainly don't view your post as a rant!

It is, if anything, an enlightened overview of just what is wrong with our legal systems today!

The fact that you were a career Law Enforcement Officer makes your statements even more powerful.

If there is one positive thing to come out of the whole "911" mess; ....It's the realization that if we are going to be "taken care of", we had better be prepared to do it ourselves: ....As our Governments clearly cannot handle the job!

klcarroll

ArtieEngineer
08-26-2007, 06:51 PM
Totally agree that we must be prepared and able to defend ourselves. ANYTHING and everything can and must be used as a weapon to defend ones self and others.

AtlantikEel
08-27-2007, 12:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ArtieEngineer:
Totally agree that we must be prepared and able to defend ourselves. ANYTHING and everything can and must be used as a weapon to defend ones self and others. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The sad truth is, if you do defend yourself you'll probably be charged with assault yourself ..... as someone (Shakespeare?) once said, "The Law is an ***".

klcarroll
08-27-2007, 08:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The sad truth is, if you do defend yourself you'll probably be charged with assault yourself </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Well, ....The saying here in the U.S. is:

"Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six!"

klcarroll

M0ttie
08-27-2007, 01:42 PM
Quote:
Well, ....The saying here in the U.S. is:

"Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six!"

klcarroll

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Unfortunately the judiciary dont agree.
There was a case here in the UK of a guy called Tony Martin, he was a farmer who lived on his own out in the middle of nowhere and had been burgled several times. He was fairly old and one night discovered 2 intruders in his property. He used his shotgun, I dont know the full circumstances, and shot one of them.
Now if I was home alone, fairly elderley and caught 2 guys in my house breaking in I think I'd do the same. These 2 guys were of the gypsy fraternity, not known for being compassionate or particulary polite, and I'd call it self defence. He got locked up!.
The 2 intruders did too but the one he shot claimed loads of compensation, if I recall he later got caught trying to defraud for more compensation saying he couldn't work due to his injuries or something and was caught on camera changing a tyre.
innocent until proved guilty?..... absolutely but the law here in the UK protects the villain more than the victim. I know of several cases where a defendant has come up with some mickey mouse reason to get a case adjourned over and over to delay the inevitable guilty decision. Even on the court date when all and sundry turn up to give evidence I've seen adjournments for pathetic reasons. I've also seen a case where as the Police Officer was off sick with an injury on duty and couldn't attend instead of adjourning the case until he was fit the villains solicitor stood up, argued that the strain of waiting for the case to be heard would be unfair on his client, the magistrates agreed and the case was dismissed!.
The Police in the UK have given up, very few beat coppers bother with crime preferring to give you a ticket for a traffic offence - its easier.
Sad but true, you wont get many officers admitting to that or the way the job is now but go to a leaving do...... they.ve nothing to lose so they unload at the senior officers, the system and the way it works - or doesn't.
I did 20 out of 30 years before I left, I never thought I'd say it but leaving was the best thing I ever did.............
Sad...

klcarroll
08-27-2007, 02:30 PM
As long as we live in a society where Prosecutors and Defense Attorneys judge their efficiency by "percentage of cases won"; .......we are doomed to endure these travesties of justice.

It works both ways: Defense Attorneys would strive to get Satan Himself off with probation; ......And the Prosecution would work overtime to convict Jesus of "double parking" his donkey!

The current "advocacy" system places the success rate first, and Justice a very distant second! There has to be a better way!

klcarroll

Stingray-65
08-27-2007, 07:20 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Carotio
08-28-2007, 03:14 AM
Some of the reasons why such tragedys happens, are because people approve of the use of weapons!

I don't approve that other people than police and military have weapons, and the day I get kids on my own, I'll teach them to stay away from people who practise gun use on their own. A grey zone is people who go to forests and hunt animals, that's okay for me, but what do a buttneck from the neighborhood need an uzi or a a hand gun for?

Sorry guys, but I'm just not one of those, who use a tragedy like this as pretexte to ask for guns for everybody! Just look to USA, where so many are killed by "normal people's" guns... like documented in "Bowling for Columbine". USA still acts as role model for other countries, sadly also for the negative sides as to gun use... We used to say here in Denmark: "That only happens in America!" Now it's here too! The violence = guns for everybody! And people just approve of more violence to stop violence!!! I can't believe my eyes, when reading it!!!! It's sooo sad!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

klcarroll
08-28-2007, 07:32 AM
Carotio;

The simple ownership of a weapon DOES NOT automatically turn a person into a homicidal maniac: ......If that was true, then Switzerland would be entirely populated by bloodthirsty killers! (See the following article.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_Switzerland

As I have mentioned before, when we were chatting about economics; .....It is, at the very least, "presumptuous" to try to compare Denmark's relatively uniform 5.5 Million population to the incredibly diverse 300 million population of the U.S. !

The problem is further compounded by the fact that we "play host" to over 30 million illegal aliens! ........Think about that number for a moment: .....Our illegal alien population is FIVE TIMES LARGER than the total population of Denmark!

Is it any wonder that we have criminal problems relating to Gangs and "Illegal Sub-Culture"?????


It has become a favorite argument of those who oppose the private ownership of weapons to mention the multiple shootings perpetrated by clearly deranged people. These are horrific events, and efforts must be made to prevent such occurrences. Here in the U.S., It has long been recognized that the first such preventive step would be for our Government to actually enforce the firearms laws that currently exist!

It may come as a shock to the rest of the World, but the U.S. actually has a rather rigorous set of firearms laws, which include the following: <span class="ev_code_yellow">

1) Mandatory "Background Checks".

2) Anyone with a criminal record cannot own or posses a firearm.

3) A person with a history of mental problems cannot own or posses a firearm.

4) Underage persons are prohibited from owning or possessing firearms.

5) Illegal Aliens cannot own or posses a firearm.

6) Users of illegal drugs are prohibited from owning or possessing firearms.

7) Persons guilty of a misdemeanor crime of Domestic Violence cannot own or posses a firearm.

8) Persons who have received a Dishonorable Discharge cannot own or posses a firearm.

There are many other restrictions that the individual states apply, ....but you get the picture.</span>

So why do we still have "problems"??????

Simple! .......The same Legislators who happily pass Bill after redundant Bill will very rarely risk the wrath of their constituency by voting for the funding to actually implement and enforce the laws!

But the problems with our Government is an entirely different Rant!!

***************


"Quemadmodum gladius neminem occidit, occidentis telum est."
("A sword never kills anybody; it is a tool in the killer's hand. - Seneca, in Letters to Lucilius.")


klcarroll

Maverick_U2007
08-28-2007, 10:25 AM
Since I posted the original post I have read with interest all the points that have been raised and a lot point to the balance of power being in favour of the 'offender' than the 'Victim' and the feeling of hopelessness when those in power seem to perpetuate these imbalances.

To bring up the issue in America, I have to outline a quick story about an 'illegal immigrant' who was in fact my brother.

He went to America and was sponsored by his Aunt. Got a job and paid all necessary taxes etc and eventually got married. Returned to England for two years and the marriage produced a baby.

They then returned to America where he again got a job, provided for his family and was 'upfront' to the Authorities about his 'alien' status. He wanted to become a 'citizen' and started the process.

Some 5 years later the marriage hit the rocks and divorce proceedings were commenced. His driving licence was due for renewal and he was told that it would not be renewed as he had 'overstayed his welcome'. He went to the Authorities who said that he had 28 days to leave the country.

Within that time he made further enquiries and was told that he had to go. He was also told that he wuld not be allowed to return for a minimum period of 20 years. He had to leave his child behind.

He returned to UK and tried, at the US embassy, in vain to be allowed to visit his son under strict conditions. This was refused.

Each month he duly sent 'maintainance' to America for his sons' upbringing and 3 years later his son came to England and now lives with him.

He has no gripe with the American authorities. He accepts that he was 'lax' in pursuing his naturalization application and that he was in some way at fault. He only questions the fact that he was denied access to his child.

Conversly a 'refugee' in England commits a murder and is sentenced to life. He is due out in approx 5 years. The British Government have been told that they cannot deport him when he gets free as it will 'breach his human rights'.

Seems to me the world has gone mad.

(This is in no way a political post, purely a matter of fact)

Maverick...

klcarroll
08-28-2007, 07:20 PM
Maverick;

I feel terrible about your brother's dilemma!

My "enlightened" government gives a guy a hard time about seeing his child; ......But they can't seem to do anything about South American drug "King-Pins" who openly flaunt the laws!

You are quite right: .....we live in a world gone insane!

klcarroll

M0ttie
08-29-2007, 01:39 PM
Quote:
"We live in a world gone insane"

Res Ipsa Loqiteur (spelling?).
Latin statement often used in English courts -"the facts speak for themselves".
Insane world?......... absolutely - just look around!.