Rainbow Six 5 to be just like RS or RvS? POLL

[MrVeLLu]

[MrVeLLu]

Now to start with my own vote. I voted for Raven Shield 2.

I really (really * 10^1000) liked Rogue Spear but it has been a long time since I last time played it, so it's easier for me to start from Raven Shield. One other reason is RvS's recoil model, which I prefer better than RS's or Lockdown's. Amount of effort you have to put for a kill is much more in RvS than it was in Rogue Spear, IMHO, because you could control the recoil better.

I don't feel like going on I-hit-the-shoot-key-and-let-the-code-do-the-calculations-will-I-hit-or-not -model.

Share your own reasons for your vote if you like and respect others' opinions. And of course, answer the poll http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[RAZE_672]

I voted for RVS 2 as well.

All I would require for a sequell would be multiple weapon attachments and some new maps. More improvements would of course be an unexpected bonus.

[subzero1900]

I hated Absolutely hated the RVS system

It was entirely Luck based, Every weapon ended up looking at the cieling within a 30 round clip. The Rets went right out to the edge of the screen and it was all entirely Luck baised

If the recoil had NO effect on the rets unLike they did with Rvs, where every time a bullet moved through the chamber and the accuracy went out of the room instead of this "Precived" notion that it was skill baised trying to controll the weapon.

Reasons______
1.The Recoil was measured not once but twice every time you counteracted the recoil it added onto the in-accuracy of the rifle.

2.If my rets are closed I expect the first 3-5 shots to hit where I'm aiming.

3.The recoil was so Over "EXAGERATED" it was unrealistic, The IRAQ war would have a ton more casualtys if the rifles preformed the way they do in RVS.

4.The recoil is even worse on Simi Auto fire.


(too bad we couldn't chose as an "Option" weither or not we wanted recoil on the servers...because we know we love options...except respawns)

[TexasRanger_562]

Which game has the most realistic recoil? (besides America's Army)

[KungFu_CIA]

Originally posted by TexasRanger_562:
Which game has the most realistic recoil? (besides America's Army)

In my humble opinion...

Soldier of Fortune II: Double Helix.

Yes. It is an arcade shooter... But the recoil in MP was almost perfect because it modeled actual recoil.

That is, if you held the trigger down, the weapon steadily goes up and to the side, but also in a relative straight line AND it didn't just jump straight up in less than five, or six shots, either.

I agree with Subzero in the recoil in RvS was very similar to Counter-Strike as it is based off a randomized cone-of-fire system where if you hold the trigger down for an extended period of time, vritual rounds hit within a (invisible) pre-defined circle in randomized pattern which is X game units from the barrel of your gun.

This means a lot more luck is involved (random = luck by definition)... Plus, on top of that, the recoil and kickback modeled into the guns was not realistic by any means as they had, for example, a jump variable of 9 and a accuracy variance of 10 on weapons like a USP -- A semi-autoamtic pistol!

What this translates to in-game is for every trigger pull, the weapon jumps 9 degrees up and there is a deviation of 10 degrees from the base accuracy (which is around 1, or 0) each and every time the tigger is pulled.

Multiply this by RPM (rounds per minute) and you can see how out-of-control this can get very quickly... Even if you are only burst firing, or using single shot (more on this below).

Also, the bloom of the rets also influences how accurate, or inaccurate you are to where a player is penalized "twice" as far as inaccuracy goes -- Especially, in a CQB game like RvS when the need to snap-target (make small, short movements) is more crucial than in long range combat which also ups the chances of NOT hitting your target even though you have it dead in your crosshairs because the game still thinks you are moving and there is a delay between when the rets close and the "accuracy" returns.

The main thing I am trying to emphasize is HOW the recoil and ballistics system in RvS works so you (all) have a better understanding of it if you are going to "vote" on it.

Yes. You will have those MP players who claim what I just told you (about variance and jump values) is pure BS, I must "suck" at the game and kept getting "owned" and that the answer is to just use single-shot/double tap, etc...

But even on single shot, the recoil values are still highly exaggerated.

For example, try the M4 and MP5 and watch how exaggerated their jump/recoil is even on single shot... Especally, through the scope. The recoil and kickback modeled is not remotely realistic for a game which promotes itself as being based on, or trying to simulate realism in my opinion.

[MrVeLLu]

I agree that RvS's recoil is exaggerated with low-powered weapons like MP5. Still I find guns like G36K fun to "master" and grow into. I have no opinion on whether it's realistic or not.

I'm not sure have I been blaming the same thing (recoil that is), if I haven't hit someone in obvious killing situation. I have used the term "hit detection" along with some others. I don't know, if it has been determined anywhere or is "hit detection" just a part of recoil. For me that has been one of RvS's biggest problems. Or was it netcode.. hmmm.

By the way, what is council's "public opinion" on which way should the recoil modelling go in next R6 game? Or even better yet, what is developers' opinion?

[Dirtydog28]

I would be happy to settle for a updated version of RVS especially if they would bring it out this year.

[sx_amazing]

How can you compare RVS's recoil to CounterStrikes? Counterstrike practically has no recoil. RVS's recoil system kicks alot as you shoot and you need to know how to use your mouse to stabilize it. As for Counterstrike, you can stand there and shoot without moving your mouse down slightly to keep the reticule on target. Some players expect a game to accomodate their level of skill. Well, I don't. I prefer playing a game that has a competitive edge rather than everyone being equally good. What I like about RVS's recoil, despite being exaggerated, you have to learn how to move and practice with your mouse to learn the tricks of the trade. It is not luck-based, unless of course you are in a server with High Caps enabled. Very few servers have them enabled anyway. Servers without High Caps are more about shoot-outs opposed to servers that have them enabled where everyone runs around like Rambo.

[Palmidor]

I voted for number 3. One of the many things that annoyed and disappointed me in Lockdown was how few guns there were. They should have at least included everything from RvS plus more.

[DayGlow]

Originally posted by sx_amazing:
How can you compare RVS's recoil to CounterStrikes? Counterstrike practically has no recoil. RVS's recoil system kicks alot as you shoot and you need to know how to use your mouse to stabilize it. As for Counterstrike, you can stand there and shoot without moving your mouse down slightly to keep the reticule on target. Some players expect a game to accomodate their level of skill. Well, I don't. I prefer playing a game that has a competitive edge rather than everyone being equally good. What I like about RVS's recoil, despite being exaggerated, you have to learn how to move and practice with your mouse to learn the tricks of the trade. It is not luck-based, unless of course you are in a server with High Caps enabled. Very few servers have them enabled anyway. Servers without High Caps are more about shoot-outs opposed to servers that have them enabled where everyone runs around like Rambo.

I think what they are talking about is modelling cone-fire along with the recoil. Cone fire is a artificial way to simulate weapon recoil so to combine them is to penalize the player twice.

[subzero1900]

the Rvs ret model/recoil is luck baised, there is no skill.

Its all about putting X amount of bullets in Y amount of Time with Z amount of luck.

the more bullets you put out in the least amout of seconds is all its about, look at the best weapon in game

the Famas (super high ROF) climbs to the ceiling in less than 5 seconds. All its about is saying ooh, i was able to point at him while fighting the screen from going up, not.... "I was able to counteract my gun from running away from the target and managed to landing my shots"

some people really need to get past this idealism that "Random" isn't = Skill or they need to realise it is random try spinning around with a DE .357 (or any other weapon with simi-auto) stop with the gun pointed right at the guys head standing next to you and see if it hits (with him standing right next to you) the bullet will miracusly miss with the gun's barrel dug into his temple, and hit the cieling, wall and any other thing the size of a BARN behind him it isnt about controll, its about luck and tricking you into thinking you are actually controlling the shots.

[KungFu_CIA]

The big flaw which ALL the R6 series have had and continue to have in my, personal, opinion is this:

A) The current reticule/pip system penalizes the player for ALL types of movement and not just large ones, I.E. running, or sprinting long distances like it is supposed to.

The only exception was the bug in Rouge Spear where if you strafed side to side the game read sideways/horizontal movement as no movement at all and erroneously closed the rets to near perfect accuracy. It was commonly associated with the MP5K-PDW, but it was present for a good 80-90% of the weapons too because it was in fact a universal engine bug.

This is a big problem in R6 because the game's primary focus, SP and MP, is Close Quaters (Urban) maps with intricate rooms; doorways; blind corners; furniture; windows; floorplans; etc. where smaller movements and adjustments in aim are the cornerstone to success versus games like Ghost Recon where it is mostly long distance battles over large open terrain.

Add to that recoil, exaggerrated or not, as a seperate function (as in Raven Shield) and the system becomes more unrealistic, ironically because recoil (kickback) should already be accounted for in the reticule/pip system... But it isn't, hence, the player is penalized twice for small movments and again with recoil, I.E. kickback which makes the game feel more luck based even if it isn't.


B) The big flaw in the ballistics systems in most FPS is they do NOT separate body movement from aim movement and penalize the player equally when they are two completely different things and should not effect each other as drastically as they are do.

This points right back to my initial statement of how the reticule/pip system penalizes all types of movement, because it treats movement of the mouse the same as pressing the "A" or "D" key (Left; Right) on the keyboard.

A possible solution to this would be for devs to to eliminate any movement penalties when you use ONLY the mouse.

This does not mean you would get 100% accuracy wherever you aim by simply aiming... But what it would do is address the problem of penalizing small mouse (aim) movement which is more crucial in CQB than any other aspect.

This way, if you were moving, for example, you can stop and then aim using your mouse and you should be able to hit what you are aiming at and not have to wait an "eternity" for the pips to close.

If you add recoil/kickback TO THE FIRST PERSON WEAPON MODEL ONLY in a system like this I don't think people would mind it as much because recoil/kickback IS a more immersive and realistic feature... But doesn't take the skill out of the hands of skilled players, nor does it introduce an element of luck like a randomized cone-of-fire system does.

Would this mean recoil/kickback becomes only a visual feature if it is only applied to the FPWM?

Yes and no.

The second part of what I propose is whenever you move YOUR BODY, I.E. press the movement keys, this is where we go back to the old-style movement penalties where the pips -- IF they even exist in this model -- Would spread out to the corner of your screens to simulate/visualize inaccuracy while moving... But if you walked or moved slower (than running) the pip spread would not be as large and the moment you stop, slow down, or even go prone, it switches over to the mouse model so you can snap-target that enemy and not be penalized for it.

Another possible addition to this would be if you move just your body the first person weapon model drops toward the ground -- Like when you point a weapon at a friendly NPC in Half-Life II -- Which means you can't shoot at all unless you really slow down (walk; tactical jog) and it comes back up.

I know people will say this would turn the game into a run-stop-shoot game -- and it would, most likely -- But realistically, gamers would have to either be willing to choose a more evolved system like above, or stick with what is an outdated, one-size-fits all approach to movement penalities and ballistics to have a faster gaming experience...

Which is exactly where the issue of realism and gameplay balance comes up again and is what we are all trying to hash out on threads like this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[DayGlow]

personally I like the OFP sight model. Basically the onscreen sight is broken down into what could be considered the back sight, the T, and the front sight, the I

When the I inside the T, your front and back sights are aligned and your shots are accurate. Movement causes the I to wonder out of the T simulated quick movements or the constant shock of running that causes you to knock your sight alignment out. Place the T on a target, the I maybe off to the side momentary, causing a shot to go off target. Wait for the sight to stabalize and you got an accurate shot. Recoil is then a seperate concideration in the equation.

[sx_amazing]

Originally posted by subzero1900:
the Rvs ret model/recoil is luck baised, there is no skill.

Its all about putting X amount of bullets in Y amount of Time with Z amount of luck.

the more bullets you put out in the least amout of seconds is all its about, look at the best weapon in game

the Famas (super high ROF) climbs to the ceiling in less than 5 seconds. All its about is saying ooh, i was able to point at him while fighting the screen from going up, not.... "I was able to counteract my gun from running away from the target and managed to landing my shots"

some people really need to get past this idealism that "Random" isn't = Skill or they need to realise it is random try spinning around with a DE .357 (or any other weapon with simi-auto) stop with the gun pointed right at the guys head standing next to you and see if it hits (with him standing right next to you) the bullet will miracusly miss with the gun's barrel dug into his temple, and hit the cieling, wall and any other thing the size of a BARN behind him it isnt about controll, its about luck and tricking you into thinking you are actually controlling the shots.

Well, you are incorrect once again. I play Raven Shield on a daily basis and have been since the getgo. My shots register and hit a target where I lay the pip on. I don't know how many times you have played RVS but it seems to me you don't play very much.

[subzero1900]

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/351.gif

Reading comprehension, Learn it, do what I said, then reply again, I've been playing this game since the start (about 3 years for Rvs, UO & RS a lot longer)

[KungFu_CIA]

Originally posted by subzero1900:

some people really need to get past this idealism that "Random" isn't = Skill or they need to realise it is random.

OT:

One reason the "random = skill" mindset has taken hold is because of Counter-Strike -- More than any other game, imo, because of its popualrity and high visibility in international in e-sports.

I am not knocking CS as I play it as well (1.6 and CSS).

However, I also know how it is designed and this randomized c-o-f system was the only thing the original Mod team had to work with at the time because it did give the Mod a much more "realistic" feel -- And the early betas were much more realistic than 1.6 and CSS -- Because the original Half-Life ballistics were very similar to most shooters of that era (sci-fi, or not) and used a "where you aim is where you hit" system which felt "static" and "unrealistic", ironically because almost every single shot was dead on which is not realistic either.

In short, had CS stuck with the early betas recoil models which weren't as exaggerated or extreme, it would probably be an okay system, but this is not what happened as CS has evolved and hence, CS is very luck-based now more than ever... Yet, again, due to its popularity as an international e-sport, most kids who play the game competitively just accept this and really don't care about it if we are going to be honest.

But on the other hand, the larger success of e-sports depend entirely on convincing the mainstream there is actually skill in playing video games and this is exactly why CS is never featured as a premiere e-sport when doing press for the mainstream media. Instead, games like Quake, Painkiller, UT and other DM games are used because (not only are the games easier to understand, but) if asked, the ballistics systems are very accurate which means there is very little luck involved which helps legitimize the "skill" of the "cyberathletes" they are trying to promote to the masses. It is like CS and its ballistics are a "dirty little secret" because of how much luck is involved in the game IF you know how it is designed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

......

DayGlow:

The OFP model was good, but most of the game was long range combat vs. CQB.

There were CQB missions and options (the MP5; MP5SD; etc.), but the bulk of the game was still long range engagements.

CQB is still the major hurdle R6 needs to address fully with a new aim/movement system because there is a unique opportunity here for UBI and whoever is developing R6:5, to actually move not only the R6 series forward, but also FPS in general as we've been discussing. Technology is at a place where if enough time and resources are put in, we could possibly see a jump (evolution) in the FPS genre as a whole with a new aim/movement system with Rainbow Six leading the way as it should be http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[doubleTAP5.56mm]

My reply to the poll would be just don't FK with the basic concept and gameplay. I know I sound like a broken record but dammit Ubi when you guys wise up, I'll shut up.
Oh ya, I voted #3.

[a106GLIMMER]

Originally posted by sx_amazing:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by subzero1900:
the Rvs ret model/recoil is luck baised, there is no skill.

Its all about putting X amount of bullets in Y amount of Time with Z amount of luck.

the more bullets you put out in the least amout of seconds is all its about, look at the best weapon in game

the Famas (super high ROF) climbs to the ceiling in less than 5 seconds. All its about is saying ooh, i was able to point at him while fighting the screen from going up, not.... "I was able to counteract my gun from running away from the target and managed to landing my shots"

some people really need to get past this idealism that "Random" isn't = Skill or they need to realise it is random try spinning around with a DE .357 (or any other weapon with simi-auto) stop with the gun pointed right at the guys head standing next to you and see if it hits (with him standing right next to you) the bullet will miracusly miss with the gun's barrel dug into his temple, and hit the cieling, wall and any other thing the size of a BARN behind him it isnt about controll, its about luck and tricking you into thinking you are actually controlling the shots.

Well, you are incorrect once again. I play Raven Shield on a daily basis and have been since the getgo. My shots register and hit a target where I lay the pip on. I don't know how many times you have played RVS but it seems to me you don't play very much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

just not on RA sbl user servers or FP servers right? Its people like you that amaze me you cheat in the game and then make a statment like this "My shots register and hit a target where I lay the pip on." Of coarse they do when you have norecoil and Autoaim. and the last time you played was 11 days ago there goes your everyday idea....

[FP BL] d323103de2c39d53b3ddb63b6cb32596 "sx|am@zing" "69.226.55.230" FP Ban

Results 1 to 20 of 83
# Game GUID Name IP Dates Ban ID
1 Rainbow Six: Raven Shield 6cb32596 sx|paperbag (hidden) 2006-03-04 17:06:24 to
2006-03-04 20:09:50 Clean
2 Rainbow Six: Raven Shield 6cb32596 |SUPER|am@zing (hidden) 2006-03-04 17:19:19 to
2006-03-04 17:43:31 Clean
3 Rainbow Six: Raven Shield 6cb32596 sx|am@zing (hidden) 2005-11-13 15:10:53 to
2006-03-03 22:26:59 Clean

[tom.hart2]

I've played rvs since release and can say there is no luck what so ever in the recoil/rets. It's very hard to master which is why alot of ppl think others are cheating. Play the game until you're good and you will stop calling ppl cheats. Theres far more skill in the rvs recoil than anything that rs or ld has to offer. The recoil (realistic or not) stops the run and gun. The famus isn't that hard to stop it from climbing, You just need to know how to control it.

I'm hoping rs 5 doesn't go the way of rogue spear. Rvs is a great game. There is no reason why we should go back to rogue spear. Just incase you think im a rvs newbie i've been playing since the original and have all the rainbow six games (including covert ops). Rvs is by far the best.

[CWP_Omega_Man]

I wish they would keep and slightly improve on the RVS model by adding the climb of R6 (like to climb onto a box). As far as the recoil issue, it is obvious most of you have never fired a real rifle. In the real world I shoot an AR-15. On single shot you have to control the weapon to be accurate at 30+ yards. To hit anything over that on full auto is simply controlled luck. In the game, I use an L8A51 on single shot which I feel most resembles my experience in the real world. Ask any operator in the field, and they will all say (to a man) that full auto is only for suppression or close quarters room clearing. Therefore, I feel the recoil is reasonably accurate already on single shot, and actually too accurate on full auto at a distance. There is nothing worse than getting pegged by a guy shooting full auto at 50+ yards. It just doesn't happen in the real world.

[sx_amazing]

Originally posted by a106GLIMMER:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sx_amazing:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by subzero1900:
the Rvs ret model/recoil is luck baised, there is no skill.

Its all about putting X amount of bullets in Y amount of Time with Z amount of luck.

the more bullets you put out in the least amout of seconds is all its about, look at the best weapon in game

the Famas (super high ROF) climbs to the ceiling in less than 5 seconds. All its about is saying ooh, i was able to point at him while fighting the screen from going up, not.... "I was able to counteract my gun from running away from the target and managed to landing my shots"

some people really need to get past this idealism that "Random" isn't = Skill or they need to realise it is random try spinning around with a DE .357 (or any other weapon with simi-auto) stop with the gun pointed right at the guys head standing next to you and see if it hits (with him standing right next to you) the bullet will miracusly miss with the gun's barrel dug into his temple, and hit the cieling, wall and any other thing the size of a BARN behind him it isnt about controll, its about luck and tricking you into thinking you are actually controlling the shots.

Well, you are incorrect once again. I play Raven Shield on a daily basis and have been since the getgo. My shots register and hit a target where I lay the pip on. I don't know how many times you have played RVS but it seems to me you don't play very much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

just not on RA sbl user servers or FP servers right? Its people like you that amaze me you cheat in the game and then make a statment like this "My shots register and hit a target where I lay the pip on." Of coarse they do when you have norecoil and Autoaim. and the last time you played was 11 days ago there goes your everyday idea....

[FP BL] d323103de2c39d53b3ddb63b6cb32596 "sx|am@zing" "69.226.55.230" FP Ban

Results 1 to 20 of 83
# Game GUID Name IP Dates Ban ID
1 Rainbow Six: Raven Shield 6cb32596 sx|paperbag (hidden) 2006-03-04 17:06:24 to
2006-03-04 20:09:50 Clean
2 Rainbow Six: Raven Shield 6cb32596 |SUPER|am@zing (hidden) 2006-03-04 17:19:19 to
2006-03-04 17:43:31 Clean
3 Rainbow Six: Raven Shield 6cb32596 sx|am@zing (hidden) 2005-11-13 15:10:53 to
2006-03-03 22:26:59 Clean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The FP team can fool the RVS public all they want into thinking that I hacked. I don't care. I never cheated nor hacked in any server. I go in all RA and FP servers and none have violated me. Why? Because I never used any hacks nor cheats. TFX's server supposedly caught me and didn't provide "solid evidence" as they said it. You can say all you want Glimmerman, your clan never liked my clan anyway. Only a fool like you would believe SX would go in your server tking with SX tags. Use common sense. Oh, and for your information I play other games other than RVS.

On another note, and for FP catching Bonfire-SS- with the infamous BG hack? That is impossible. BG hack is not detectable as the FP team puts it. Bonfire-SS- is just another victim of deception.

[a106GLIMMER]

Originally posted by sx_amazing:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by a106GLIMMER:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by sx_amazing:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by subzero1900:
the Rvs ret model/recoil is luck baised, there is no skill.

Its all about putting X amount of bullets in Y amount of Time with Z amount of luck.

the more bullets you put out in the least amout of seconds is all its about, look at the best weapon in game

the Famas (super high ROF) climbs to the ceiling in less than 5 seconds. All its about is saying ooh, i was able to point at him while fighting the screen from going up, not.... "I was able to counteract my gun from running away from the target and managed to landing my shots"

some people really need to get past this idealism that "Random" isn't = Skill or they need to realise it is random try spinning around with a DE .357 (or any other weapon with simi-auto) stop with the gun pointed right at the guys head standing next to you and see if it hits (with him standing right next to you) the bullet will miracusly miss with the gun's barrel dug into his temple, and hit the cieling, wall and any other thing the size of a BARN behind him it isnt about controll, its about luck and tricking you into thinking you are actually controlling the shots.

Well, you are incorrect once again. I play Raven Shield on a daily basis and have been since the getgo. My shots register and hit a target where I lay the pip on. I don't know how many times you have played RVS but it seems to me you don't play very much. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

just not on RA sbl user servers or FP servers right? Its people like you that amaze me you cheat in the game and then make a statment like this "My shots register and hit a target where I lay the pip on." Of coarse they do when you have norecoil and Autoaim. and the last time you played was 11 days ago there goes your everyday idea....

[FP BL] d323103de2c39d53b3ddb63b6cb32596 "sx|am@zing" "69.226.55.230" FP Ban

Results 1 to 20 of 83
# Game GUID Name IP Dates Ban ID
1 Rainbow Six: Raven Shield 6cb32596 sx|paperbag (hidden) 2006-03-04 17:06:24 to
2006-03-04 20:09:50 Clean
2 Rainbow Six: Raven Shield 6cb32596 |SUPER|am@zing (hidden) 2006-03-04 17:19:19 to
2006-03-04 17:43:31 Clean
3 Rainbow Six: Raven Shield 6cb32596 sx|am@zing (hidden) 2005-11-13 15:10:53 to
2006-03-03 22:26:59 Clean </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The FP team can fool the RVS public all they want into thinking that I hacked. I don't care. I never cheated nor hacked in any server. I go in all RA and FP servers and none have violated me. Why? Because I never used any hacks nor cheats. TFX's server supposedly caught me and didn't provide "solid evidence" as they said it. You can say all you want Glimmerman, your clan never liked my clan anyway. Only a fool like you would believe SX would go in your server tking with SX tags. Use common sense. Oh, and for your information I play other games other than RVS.

On another note, and for FP catching Bonfire-SS- with the infamous BG hack? That is impossible. BG hack is not detectable as the FP team puts it. Bonfire-SS- is just another victim of deception. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

by the way who said you were hit on the tfx server? You my friend have no clue! as for BG it is detected as are all native hacks. Your talking to a known cheater to find out if its detected was funny tho. I will see you in game o no I won't I play on servers that use the FP ban list along with ra's LOL.

[sx_amazing]

good for you glimmerman. I do have a clue. I know everything there is need to know why I am on that list. You won't read it on the forums either. It is on the private messaging. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[stm492]

Originally posted by DayGlow:
I think what they are talking about is modelling cone-fire along with the recoil. Cone fire is a artificial way to simulate weapon recoil so to combine them is to penalize the player twice. you arnt double penalized in rvs. the rets only spread when you move around, if youre moving slow and steady, the only recoil is the rets moving upward which you can master by controlling it with your mouse. youre only double penalized when youre swinging everything around while shooting, in which you should be double penalized. in my opinion, rvs's ret model is perfect, and i have been playing the R6 series since the beginning.

[sx_amazing]

Originally posted by stm492:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DayGlow:
I think what they are talking about is modelling cone-fire along with the recoil. Cone fire is a artificial way to simulate weapon recoil so to combine them is to penalize the player twice. you arnt double penalized in rvs. the rets only spread when you move around, if youre moving slow and steady, the only recoil is the rets moving upward which you can master by controlling it with your mouse. youre only double penalized when youre swinging everything around while shooting, in which you should be double penalized. in my opinion, rvs's ret model is perfect, and i have been playing the R6 series since the beginning. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

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[Imparfait]

Actually the rets are modelled poorly. No operator in the world would be that inaccurate at the ranges in question.

Standard MP5 at 5 metres in the game yields a ridiculously high MPA.

Multiplayer lends itself to some silly notion that automatic fire is the way to go.

CMAG + Famas... The meaning of placed shots, double tap etc is lost and so is the skill.

RvS is very much a random run and gun multiplayer.

THere are many good things about RvS, but many bad. A complete reconstruction of the game would not be preferable.

[Woosy]

The recoil is modeled poorly I think the rets are fine. If the game devs where to actually make weapons exactly the same as their real life counterparts they would need bigger maps, and realistic ballistics in bullet proof vests to balance it out. Because there has to be some balance.

If the MP5 was modelled correctly it's maximum kill range is about 200m, it's recoil is low. There is no real map in RVS thats bigger then 200m other than shipyard outside. If people had certain disadvantages to certain weapons in certain situations then there would be a good all around balance with realistic balistics. The MP5 is good for CQB but useless for long range combat due to its maximum kill range places where the m16 would excel, but it's absolutley too long for CQB when rooms get tight and gets in the way. If it was done so it does get in the way and has it advantages and disadvantges then realistic ballistics will work, it would shake things up for certain maps as you would need a certain gun for that situation.

But it won't happen, so the only way to really do it is give people this weird recoil to balance it out as there is no other way to balance it out without making one gun look too godly.

[Raven_BROz]

I would go for a rvs2. The only thing that really annoyed me in rvs was that it was pure luck if you hit or not, even after a well aimed shot with the sniper rifles. Full auto run and gun was the way to go for most people. And I want more pistol accuracy, even I shoot better than the top elite rainbow operatives and I have somewhat limited training... And give us some Iron sights when we dont have a scope :P

[EKAM_Alpha1]

I'd go with a Rogue Spear 2 game
-Rogue Spear was far more difficult than RvS due to better level design
-RS had a faster running speed than RvS, making you act faster, but more carefully, as running ruined your aim, and moving carelessly could expose you to enemy fire.
-RS had a far better damage model than RvS. In RvS you start limping once you get the first shot. You die with the second one (unless it's a sniper rifle shot). In rogue spear you could take nine 9mm shots with heavy body armour, but could die instantly with a well placed one unlike RvS 2-shot-kill model. Not to mention that the only injury you can get in RvS is a leg injury, while in RS the consequensces of the wound were tied to the limp that was hit.
-Bring back the nice flashbang effect from RS (I liked it more than RvS's "freezing sight" effect)-just an opinion
-Take the good elements of RvS (Weapon attachments, prone posture, incremental door opening) and improve them further.
-Allow mission planning for Co-op MP games. The leader of each entry team gets to make the waypoints for his team, while seeing the waypoints of every team. Remove the waypoint markers from the game screen, it feels like an F-16 HUD. Put back the Rogue Spear map which is unrealistic, but doesn't bother your aim and sight. Or just use the full screen map.
-4 teams, 16 operatives!
-More shotguns
-More scope choices
-No crosshair for the weapons. Give us a closer look to the IS so that w/o going to IS mode we can still aim relativel well w/o IS. Also add a laser pointer for the weapons.
-IS system proposed: Instead of having to hit the button to get the IS up, you could try the following:
The weapon is always in IS mode. To get it out of IS mode and turn the barrel to the ground you have to hold down the IS key, and when engaged in combat, you release it and the weapon comes up really fast so that you can look dp\own the IS and aim. This way, when not fighting you get an unobstructed view of what is in front of you, and when you have to fight instead of searching for the key, you just lift your finger off it.

[stm492]

RvS is very much a random run and gun multiplayer. i dont know what servers you play on, but RvS is hardly a random luck shot game if you play with some of the top laddering teams... where gameplay can be unbelievably tactical. but i do agree that high caps are terrible, but the good servers have them turned off anyways.

[SAS_Shield]

i rather enjoyed the damage model of RvS over RS. Yes the getting hit will gimp your leg was a lazy way of handling it, but that coudl be imporved. The damages between light, medium, and heavy armor is rather noticable especially with using a combination of calibers and SD. RS i noticed didnt take as much into consideration mostly in the small ways that arent usually tried or experienced in normal gameplay.

[zkinetix]

ive said this before rs has the same amount of people playing it probably even more now that a ladder has been established then RVS does and RS is a much older game so that shows u alot of what worked and what didnt rvs couldnt hold its fans period the end. in rvs i dont like the ret bloom or even the ret knock even when im standing still in rvs my ret isnt as small and exsact as it was in RS the movement and when u got shot affected the ret perfect in RS i mean if u want to make it a little more "tactical" or w/e u want to call it for those 100 or so rvs kids who still acutlly play that game u could add a little bit of ret knock when u shoot but i mean in RS where u shot is where the bullet went and in rvs where u shoot the bullet was alot of times off the mark in rvs ull c alot more "Lucky" shots and in rogue spear u wont.

[Badboystar]

i voted the mix because i still love the rainbow six 2 series of games http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Woosy]

Thats the thing though, Rogue Spear and the original basicaly had no recoil at all an early Lockdown where you point the bullet fires on single and full auto, it's the opposite of RVS. On single shot on RvS with scope I can hit anything one shot or double tap, I don't use full auto it's not accurate as I have recoil. In RS just hold down full auto and you will hit your target, assuming you're standing still. The reason for that I think was because there was no FPWV to judge. So pretty much everyone took the MP5PDW and fired it full auto best gun in the game.

Then there was nade spamming on RS just like RVS, the map where you start the back of a shop people naded the hell out of the back door a nasty choke point, I think that was covert ops. There was the hospital map too that was the exact same, spam nades to the end of the corridoor.

They put those rets off RS into RvS which the old school wanted, they took up so much room, alot of those old school people wanted the original ones back. I think some of the things wanted are a little silly, like climbing boxes... I remember playing single player and there was these boxes, the problem with half of them was they where by the bad guys patrols. So when you shot the patrol guys and climbed the box there was no real advantge to being there it was kinda like a Rocky Balboa moment.

I think if there was a few things I could take from RS would be player animation, reload movement and death animation was spot on, weapon sounds where perfect, I prefered those over Raven Shields. I think what the supposed old school Hardcore fans have to come to the realisation is things change I have played these games too! There will never be another Rogue Spear, Black Thorn, they where awesome games for their time. but unlike RVS it moved forward and didn't remain stagnant, all those games have flaws and we can only hope they get improved in the new game.

[Yen Lo]

Originally posted by Badboystar:
i voted the mix because i still love the rainbow six 2 series of games http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You should look around for a copy of Eagle Watch and Urban Ops, two of the best and not to be missed.

[The-Pizza-Man]

Start from scratch. Throw the whole bloody system out the window. There are better ways to model realistic shooting and movement today, as Dayglow said, OFP is an example. Having a dot and four pips is not the be all and end all as far as realism goes.