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View Full Version : Where can a guy go for a good ol' fashioned debate ?



Mylo42
09-14-2005, 09:49 AM
Everytime a discussion starts getting interesting about international politics and the like, the thread gets closed, even if there isn't any childish name calling and bashing. While I do agree, perhaps this isn't the place for that type of debate, is there a forum that you CAN go ? I think discussion on it is very healthy. It's when people STOP talking about things of importance that we should be concerned. This is a good group here due in large part to it's diversity, which is what makes for such good conversation.

Hopefully there is some response before this thread gets closed.

Mylo42
09-14-2005, 09:49 AM
Everytime a discussion starts getting interesting about international politics and the like, the thread gets closed, even if there isn't any childish name calling and bashing. While I do agree, perhaps this isn't the place for that type of debate, is there a forum that you CAN go ? I think discussion on it is very healthy. It's when people STOP talking about things of importance that we should be concerned. This is a good group here due in large part to it's diversity, which is what makes for such good conversation.

Hopefully there is some response before this thread gets closed.

TheRealWulfmann
09-14-2005, 10:47 AM
There was a terrific place at SimOuthouse called Oso's Outhouse.
We had some good ald fashion knock down brawl like debates. Unfortunatley, there are a few that when they open their mouth believe all should bow to their Socratarian wisdom and when people don't they can get way out of shape and even make threats; from the safety of an ocean way usually, LOL
So, the outhouse was recently closed because some even threatened the moderators.
I think the rules should be simple, anyone that threatens another person has his real name and address posted, ROTF

<span class="ev_code_BLUE">Wulfmann</span>

The_Silent_O
09-14-2005, 11:26 AM
Just enter 'POLITICAL BLOG' in Google and go explore.

I'd also suggest just reading them initially and not jumping into the blog headlong...get to know the crowd and their orientation.

vanjast
09-14-2005, 11:43 AM
It's a shame that some forums become "Totalitarian". We have the same problem here with our major gaming site. I've always mentioned that there should be and forum for abusive behavior http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. these things become self moderating in the end, and most often people get bored of this type of discussion. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Mylo42
09-14-2005, 11:52 AM
Gentlemen,

Thanks,

Wulfmann.....you are kidding right ? Geez...I tell you, some people's children....

I enjoy hearing other points of view on "stuff" and have had a chance to experience that a little here on this forum. I like that. ....but, threatening, name calling, and general immaturaty......waste of time and ruins good discussion.

Some people just don't know how to communicate....plain and simple.

Messervy
09-14-2005, 11:56 AM
In the past when UbiRazz was the only and official moderator he would leave the discussion to die out on its own.
Now with his newly appointed apprentices we became somewhat sanitized.

Mylo42
09-14-2005, 12:04 PM
Mes,

I don't know if sanitized is the right word. It's like I said, as long as things are kept civil, what is it hurting ? If something of as little importance as a computer ....uhh...SIM, can actually make human beings take a second to reflect upon what somebody a world away or across the street may have said, then it should be considered a bonus. Could you imagine if somebody somewhere was actually enlightened a little bit as a result of a sub game ??

TheRealWulfmann
09-14-2005, 12:19 PM
Frankly I don't think it is a bad idea to let people say what ever they feel on an open forum, even name calling. If you disagree and say, Hey, you moron, blah blah, what's the big deal?
No I was not kidding on what I posted above.
I don't even mind vulgar language that is XXed but you still know what was said.
I really learned a lot from different view points expressed at Oso's and was sorry it was closed, even with threats.
I was always amused by someone complaining to a mod about something said on an open forum.
Whah, he was mean!!! whah whah.
They are supposed to agree with me and realize they are stupid without my wisdom, whah, whah!!!
LMAO!!!
That is the point of an open forum. It should be restricted to 18 years and up with no holds barred except a notice threats will be reported to authorities.
I don't know what was threatened as no one has threatened me and I am as in your face as I am aware of but do not expect liberal pansies to change their mind when I quote something that seems logical in my view.
Freedom is the right to believe what ever you like even if it is wrong, which explains the democratic party, LOL!!!

But, I do believe such debates do not belong in SH3, IL-2, CFS3 CoD, BIA etc type forums other than to maybe ask where some are, like this thread
Wulfmann

Mylo42
09-14-2005, 12:31 PM
Wulf....

You don't believe these debates belong here in a SHIII forum ?? ....you're such a moron.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

TheRealWulfmann
09-14-2005, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mylo42:
Wulf....

You don't believe these debates belong here in a SHIII forum ?? ....you're such a moron.. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is not as bad as a guy just saying he wants to make love to me on the Seawolves thread but not in those words!!!

And, he was not kidding.

Now, just imagine if one gets that distraught over a game discussion how they might feel about Mid East peace and who is to blame!!

Wulfmann

Mylo42
09-14-2005, 12:50 PM
Good point....

Actually, the Middle East is one of my LEAST favorite things to discuss. Too heated, too political, too nasty.....

What kind of crowd are you....*ahem*...hanging with over there at SeaWolves ??

TheRealWulfmann
09-14-2005, 01:09 PM
That is what is funny. I have spent the last three years making freeware mods and have never been involved with any payware.
I just think some are going to far in their opinions and being too negative and do not believe it promotes the game very well.
I don't care what people choose in buying it or not and when I state what one side says that does not mean i agree with it. I am not trying to convince anyone either way but encourage people to make up their own mind and not feel like they have to follow one side or be black listed.
Its a matter of free choice. In Cuba, Castro will tell you what you should do. We get to make up our own minds.
Wulfmann

Mylo42
09-14-2005, 01:56 PM
Wulf,

I just read the SeaWolves thread you mentioned. I figured that to "Make an informed decision" was your standpoint, right from the get go. I agree with that totally. I also raised quite an eyebrow over what Jason was saying. He is obviously a passionate person, particularly in regards to that discussion. To me, that's an admirable quality. At the end of the read, I agreed with much that both of you said. ...but like I said over in that tread, I couldn't care less about X-1 or anybody involved one way or the other, I just enjoyed the read.

By the way....I loved the "Tantrum" remark. I haven't laughed out loud reading a post in quite some time.

Kaleun1961
09-14-2005, 02:22 PM
I just wanted to say something to Messervy here, as the other thread is now closed.

I must confess that looking back on my post of last night I don't really advocate the go it alone on the world scene thing. Very tired last night when I posted that, not thinking too clearly. I did consider not posting that at all, but decided what the heck and did.

I am not American by the way. I'm Canadian. I've always felt safe living next door to Uncle Sam. Through my work, trucking, I meet a lot of ordinary Americans. I do observe that they are not necessarily the most worldly minded people in terms of international issues. However, from my understanding of world history I think it was very reluctantly that they have been dragged onto the world scene. Prior to both World Wars there was a very powerful isolationist movement in existence. It was circumstances that dragged them into those two wars, as a result of which they are now the biggest kid on the block.

As far as the U.N. goes, most of the world sees it differently than from the viewpoint of the ordinary American citizen. Canadians are really big fans of the U.N. from what I see of our history the last few decades. I personally am not. Despite the policies of the U.S. government, many American do not want to be in Iraq and really do not want much to do with meddling in Middle East politics, as evidenced by their grass-roots protest movement.

The USA is a very unique country in that it was built by the efforts of ordinary citizens and has what I believe is a very well developed and implemented constitution. America is a country that does not like Big Government. They very jealously guard their constitutional rights and the idea of surrendering national sovereignty to an unelected, undemocratic world body like the U.N. is anathema to them.

This is how I see it from my next-door Canadian neighbour perspective.

Kaleun1961
09-14-2005, 02:24 PM
P.S. Anybody could have figured out that I am not American by reading my posts. Notice how I spell such words as: honour, colour, neighbour, harbour, etc.

Game__On
09-14-2005, 02:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mylo42:
Everytime a discussion starts getting interesting about international politics and the like, the thread gets closed, even if there isn't any childish name calling and bashing. While I do agree, perhaps this isn't the place for that type of debate, is there a forum that you CAN go ? I think discussion on it is very healthy. It's when people STOP talking about things of importance that we should be concerned. This is a good group here due in large part to it's diversity, which is what makes for such good conversation.

Hopefully there is some response before this thread gets closed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Basically you are looking for an unmoderated forum ... Not sure you would have survived the "aquamark3" forums, but that was the only unmoderated forum i know off ...
I'm still pissed its shut down due to massive development shutting down...
I can almost say i miss them ****ers, even the huge flame wars and idiots i didnt like...
Every once in a while there were some hard discussions there about delicate matters, and to be honest i find only un-moderated discussions interesting enough to read and participate in...

Now to read the rest of this thread

Messervy
09-14-2005, 04:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">P.S. Anybody could have figured out that I am not American by reading my posts. Notice how I spell such words as: honour, colour, neighbour, harbour, etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

@Kaleun 1961

I know you are a Canadian. I can`t remember a thread where I found that out.
What I wrote was merely a response to your post regarding ex Yugoslavia.
I am Slovene and we basicaly provoked the colapse of the country, by our sovereignty claims. What happened next was a basic european issiue that needed to be solved ages ago, but was hampered and suppressed by the big colonial powers of that time.
U.S. only got involved after they realized that situation got out of their hands and it was a bad publicity coup.
They conviniently waited long enough for ethnic clensing to achieve managable districts before getting involved.
Mind that at the begining they were the strongest advocate for status quo.
Of course Yougoslavia was not as powerfull and threatning as the U.S.S.R.
At the same time U.S. foreign policy strongly supported any secessionist movement in the republics of U.S.S.R. under the clause of "Democracy".
This being said am glad that every Yougoslav nation has it state and it`s sovereignty, because we are too different to be put in a same pot. They payed the price and they deserved it. (We Slovenes got out almost unscaved because we were ethnicaly "pure")

Let me put it this way:
Within time span of 200 years of it`s existance the U.S. had committed a genocide against indigenous people, created the first "concentration camps" called reserves, started to build the new nation from scratch (easy to do when you have a "Tabula rasa") and became a leading power in the world.
That doesn`t mean that they are able to solve simmilar problems around the world just because they had managed to create a "homogenous" nation out of scratch.
There are older things in this world than Dollar, democracy and Stars and Stripes.

AND I SINCERELY THINK THEY SHOULD BE RESPECTED!

Best regards!

P.S. I hope I didn`t breach the rules of sanity clause.
I shall keep my freedom of speach unless being labeled a terrorist. Then, unable to speak and be heard, I shall act to my best judgement.... Luckily I am not as desperate and religiously delusional to become one with both extreme parties involved.

I

Kaleun1961
09-14-2005, 04:33 PM
Messervy, I agree. We in Canada are so puny next door to our large neighbour. We struggle with trying to maintain a distinct identity. We are somewhat difficult to understand: we drive a lot of Japanese cars, listen to and watch American entertainment, have a British model Parliament and embrace many foreign cultures, but having primarily English and French roots. Try figuring that one out!

I agree that former-Yugoslavia was never going to work. Tito was able to keep nationalistic sentiments suppressed, but at what cost? After his death, of course, it all fell apart very quickly. From a North American perspective, it was horrifying to see such things going on as what we termed "genocide" in a post-WW2 Europe, of all places. Hadn't we fought a war on those same grounds [amongst other reasons] to prevent such a thing?

Here in Canada we have a significant French minority, mainly in the province of Quebec. A significant number of them aspire to nationhood. It is a constant challenge to Canadian national unity. In addition to this, we have a population in the western part of the country who feel trampled upon by the centralist Federal government, whom they feel do not represent their interests.

As for my American cousins, I can only guess that they feel that others should share the same freedom and democracy that they enjoy. However, what national governments do in the real world is not necessarily the same thing. Not all the world wants to or indeed, is even capable of handling a western style democracy. In some places of the world it just will not work, at least not yet. And so, that should be respected. I hear you on that one. When our American neighbour rolls over in the bed that we share, we fear being squashed.

Messervy
09-14-2005, 04:42 PM
Kaleeun1961 wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When our American neighbour rolls over in the bed that we share, we fear being squashed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gifThe greatest of conclusions are allways short! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

zuluDROOG
09-14-2005, 10:00 PM
http://www.sqlspace.com/

Probably one of the most tolerant (un-moderated) forums on the internet where international politics is entree, main course and dessert. Of course, being uncensored, it can be very brutal and a strong stomach is required. But, if this is what you order then this is what you expect.

Gunnersman
09-14-2005, 10:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kaleun1961:
...America is a country that does not like Big Government. They very jealously guard their constitutional rights and the idea of surrendering national sovereignty to an unelected, undemocratic world body like the U.N. is anathema to them.

This is how I see it from my next-door Canadian neighbour perspective. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey K61,
Well put...coming from someone who is not a US citizen.
Now, if the rest of the benighted US citizenry could understand why the constitution was created...well, that would be great.

Mylo42
09-14-2005, 10:47 PM
.....anathema........anathema....

Ahhh !!....here it is.

Anathama a-nath'-e-ma "1. a formal ecclesiastical curse involving excommunication. 2. any imprecation of divine punishment 3. a curse 4. a person or thing accursed or consigned to ****ation or destruction. 5. a person or thing detested or loathed.

hmmmm...ya....I suppose that word fits.

paulhager
09-15-2005, 07:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mylo42:
Everytime a discussion starts getting interesting about international politics and the like, the thread gets closed, even if there isn't any childish name calling and bashing. While I do agree, perhaps this isn't the place for that type of debate, is there a forum that you CAN go ? I think discussion on it is very healthy. It's when people STOP talking about things of importance that we should be concerned. This is a good group here due in large part to it's diversity, which is what makes for such good conversation.

Hopefully there is some response before this thread gets closed. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are discussion groups and blogs with enabled comments all over the web.

I encourage people to comment on my blog - haven't gotten very many comments thus far. For those who maintain blogs - particular us little guys who do most of it ourselves - is dealing with spam. I handle it by requiring that all comments must be approved by me before they appear. I first set it up that way back when I had a blog for my campaign in 2004 for Indiana State Representative (I lost).

My blog is The Hoosier Gadfly (http://www.paulhager.org/wordpress). Guaranteed to contain opinions that nearly everyone will violently disagree with.

paulhager
09-15-2005, 07:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mylo42:
Gentlemen,

Thanks,

Wulfmann.....you are kidding right ? Geez...I tell you, some people's children....

I enjoy hearing other points of view on "stuff" and have had a chance to experience that a little here on this forum. I like that. ....but, threatening, name calling, and general immaturaty......waste of time and ruins good discussion.

Some people just don't know how to communicate....plain and simple. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There have been newsgroups for years - I first started on them about 15 years ago. My rule has always been to avoid flame wars and try to defuse them if possible.

If you want to convince people of your position, use good arguments AND good data to support them. The process by which my position on the right of self defense and the meaning of the Second Amendment changed was initiated by discussions on the "talk.politics.guns" newsgroup back in the early 1990's.

Kaleun1961
09-15-2005, 05:05 PM
Paul, I've visited your sites and I am very impressed by the eloquent manner with which you frame your opinions. I am of a like mind as to the issue of gun control. Here in Canada we have very draconian gun control legislation, with which I disagree. Although I do not possess firearms, I am familiar with them having served in the Canadian military.

I, for personal reasons, do not wish to have firearms in my household. Notwithstanding, I believe that non-criminals should have the right of possession under the proper circumstances, i.e. storage, licensing, proper training and so forth.

I like a quote from Dale Gribble of King of the Hill, "Guns don't kill people, the government does."

Canadians are of a different mind-set when it comes to the issue of firearms. Most of the arguments made by those in favour of gun-control legislation are based in myth and ignorance. Emotional feelings take the place of research and fact. We do not have a strong constitution along American lines, enshrining personal and property rights, a situation which I find deplorable. Canadians roll over and take whatever the government shoves down our throats. This country is more concerned over such issues as gay marriage than fundamental freedoms which we should take for granted, but are not.

We are by no means a banana republic, but neither are we an ideal model of individual rights as compared to our American neighbours.

Messervy
09-15-2005, 08:02 PM
I am European as one can easily figure out.
I`ve had my share in a war and I love firearms,
But I tend to think of them as a shortcut to make a mistake.
Let me put it this way:
The bad guys want them because they make them more powerfull, good guys resent them because they put them on the same level with bad guys.

It is the attitude that makes me go on, not a revenge!

Mylo42
09-16-2005, 09:11 AM
I believe I can comment on this as I am in law enforcement.

I have not seen a decline in the use of firearms in criminal offences since the Canadian gov. came in, what was it, 2000% over budget (I think 2 billion was blown on this initiative). If anything, violent crime using firearms has actually increased.

What I have seen is local farmers destroying their .22 cal rifles that they use to keep the coyotes off their sheep and cattle (that they've used since the invention of gunpowder pretty much), because they can't be bothered with all the red tape to make them legal....so now they are forced into measures like using poisons. (I would prefer they shoot the things as I would only imagine these poisons are working their way into the food chain somehow). I have seen good decent people burdened with a criminal record because a neighbour saw another neighbour shooting a coyote with a .22 and so this neighbour complained to the authorities who had no choice but to act. The resulting investigation revealed that the .22 used to shoot the coyote (that was killing this neighbours livelihood), was not registered and thus, this neighbour was illegally possessing this .22. Meanwhile, 3 low lifes hold a farm family hostage with a sawed off shotgun in some other part of the rural area, steal money, their car, and get away, the farm family not having any means to protect themselves whatsoever because they destroyed their firearms a month previous to remain law abiding citizens. This farm family was very lucky to escape with their lives. The arguement remains true. This may seem alarming so hold onto your socks.....CRIMINALS DON'T REGISTER THEIR FIREARMS. Firearm toting criminals have the best of both worlds since this gun registry fiasco came into being. There are fewer decent people able to protect themselves and their families because they have gotten rid of their firearms, making the gun packing dirt bag's life easier. At the same time, the black market profit for stolen firearms has risen due to more and more criminals wanting guns because less and less decent people have them. Supply and demand. Now, there is more money than ever to be made in dealing weapons. Theives go in and steal a firearm. That firearm isn't reported stolen to the authorities because the decent farmer who owns the thing, and has owned if for decades, is scared ****less that he'll be thrown in jail because it wasn't registered, as he simply didn't have the money because he is going through one more bad year on the farm. So now we have another firearm floating around in the hands of some dirtbag who's least concern is abiding by any laws that govern a decent society. .....and all of this to the tune of 2 billion of the tax payers dollars. Thank you gun registry and whatever politician thought this was a good idea without having a clue as to the realities of the situation.

As you can tell, I'm against the gun registry. I think decent law abiding (and this is key) people should have the right to possess firearms. There should be a lot of responsibility attached to this right which includes safe storage of the firearm (gun safes) and educating oneself as to it's safe use. I also believe that criminals that use a firearm in the commission of an offence should be punished (not rehabbed, not educated, not given psychological support, not coddled because he/she came from a broken home....no...PUNISHED) HARSHLY...I'm talking 25 years here, throw away the key type stuff. Hold up a 7-11 with a zip gun (home made firearm) guess what, bye bye for 25.

Emotional topic. I deal with it pretty much every day.

I would have preferred the feds spent the 2 billion on prisons. As a taxpayer, I would gladly pay for that. I mean, if we HAVE to keep them alive (I'm also for the death penalty...now there's a debate. I'll even gladly throw the switch on some of these child raping heathons and have a smile on my face, no feelings of guilt whatsoever. At least I would be able to go to the mother and father of that brutally raped and killed 5 year old little girl they had that was simply playing in a play ground and tell them that the "thing" responsible is dead. There is a quote a read about the death penalty, can't remember who said it, it goes "The death penalty might not stop them from killing, but it'll stop them from killing again". That's the angle I'm coming from), we should have a place to put them rather than out in society to do nothing but cause pain, grief, and suffering to every decent tax paying person they come into contact with.

To all the people of Australia (as I heard your country is considering a similar law). I dedicate this post to you in an effort to educate and enlighten.

....I better leave it at that. You get my point. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Now if you'll excuse me, I've got the North Sea to patrol.

Mylo42

OberUberWurst
09-16-2005, 09:54 AM
Go here http://www.libertyforum.org

Baldricks_Mate
09-16-2005, 09:58 AM
Australia...all but too late. If you own a firearm, are interested in firearms or even casually suggest maybe we have enough regulations now, that is a good way to be demonised, shunned and treated as some kind of sociopath/freak/uncaught criminal. Things since 9/11 have got worse, anti terrorism is the new justification.

I used to hunt vermin (rabbits, feral cats, foxes) and enjoyed target shooting but it is all too hard now.

Like our Canadian friends the issue of gay marriages has more credibiliy as a topic than firearms.

PS I don't like to use the word "gun". Civilians use firearms, the Military use weapons.

Kaleun1961
09-16-2005, 10:09 AM
Bravo, Milo! I could not have put it better myself. My brother was faced with the same dilemma, to register or not register his 4 rifles and shotguns, which he rarely used on the odd occasional hunting holiday. Faced with the prospect of being labelled a criminal, he got rid of them.

Home invasions and car-jackings are the vogue now in Canada. The ordinary, law-abiding citizen is now an easy mark. Sorry, I must say it, *$%^*#@ Liberals! On top of that, most of the criminal scum plaguing our streets are non-Canadian by birth, but oh, we cannot question multiculturalism, the holiest of the holy of Canadian liberal sacred cows. Every time some scumbag is set to be deported back to his third world slum, out come the do-gooders, plastering up pictures of him when he was a 7-year old in Sunday School, holding a Bible, such a sweet kid. They make me puke, these gutless weasel politicians who are selling out the heritage and identity of our [formerly] great society.

Mylo42
09-16-2005, 10:10 AM
Thanks Ober,

Trying to log into that site as we speak. I just read a little article about x-cons not having the right to vote in the States. I did not know that. I wish we had the same law up here in Canada. As far as I'm concerned, if you have a criminal record, you should lose ALL your rights under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms that we have here. If you don't like the idea of losing all your rights, don't become a criminal. Seems real easy to me.

Then again, I'm harsh and militant when it comes to the dregs of society.

Mylo42

Mylo42
09-16-2005, 10:52 AM
Kaleun,

My opinions on immigration rank right up there in the same light as my opinions on the gun registry.

You are bang on. You know, your comment about the politicians selling out this country is right on the mark too. This is the reason I get so worked up. Canada COULD have been the greatest country in the world in which to live and raise a family. Instead, it's very quickly becoming "home" to criminals who know they face, essentially, no reprisal for ill deeds. If I was a major international criminal / terrorist, I would set up shop here too. As for the gun toters, I don't know if "most" are of non Canadian birth (they probably are in the bigger centres), but there certainly are a lot.

I think that all immigrants who can come to this country and improve it, contribute to building a society in some capacity, should be welcome with open arms, much like how the nation was even created in the first place. I think that any immigrant who commits a crime in this country should be punted back to whatever cesspoole he/she is from (at their own expense, if that means rowing a boat back to ...where ever) without any chance of re entry. Maybe while they're rowing, they will think of the opportunity they just blew to live in a much better country than where ever it is they are from.

While we are spending tax dollars, let's up the security at our borders in an attempt to keep these types out of here.....I'll gladly pay for that too. Let's fix one of those leaky Brit subs (no offence to the Brits, in fact, that's just good business. Heck, if we want to buy junk, let us buy junk. Britain was smart to unload them. It's the Can Gov I blame for buying them, not the Brits) and use if for coastal patrol just to keep undersirables from entering this country, never mind having some sort of presence in our international waters. Lord knows our American cousins would be all for that. Heck, they might even subsidize our efforts. If I was a U.S. citizen, I would be pissed at Canada for having such lax border controls and creating a haven for any international thug that wants to set up shop right next to the States.

I so desperately want to see a politician with the balls to stand up and defend the decent. They might just find that they would have overwhelming support and win the next ellection by a land slide. Gay rights issues....I could care less. Be gay, get married to a man, have a happy life, go for it....JUST DON'T BE A CRIMINAL, be a decent citizen, pay (fair taxes....another debate looming....tax reform and government accountability on spending) taxes so that the country can grow, and contribute positively to society. Gays are the least of my concern. The ones I have actually met (that I knew about) have been good people.

I just loooove the incident in Vancouver a couple years ago when the Siks and Muslims, I think (It's all the same to me, I'm ignorant when it comes to that kind of thing), battled it out bloody knife fight style (they were "cerimonial" knives by they way..in which the Can gov has granted them permission to carry because...well....it's part of their religeous culture) in some church, temple, whatever they call it...."Holy ground" to them, anyway....some guy got stabbed to death because he set up tables in this church when they were supposed to eat on the floor or something. That's the jist of how things got out of control anyway. The Mounties had to guard this church (at taxpayers expense) so that the lunatics wouldn't keep killing each other. I couldn't believe it...but here we go....violence from people from one of these countries where this kind of violence is commonplace, RIGHT HERE IN OUR OWN BACK YARD. Go back to....where ever...if that's how you want to carry on. Don't bring your BS here. We are peace loving people here....if you want to live here...be peace loving too. Is that too much to ask ??

I hope I see the madness stop in my lifetime.

Mylo42

Kaleun1961
09-16-2005, 11:17 AM
We had that table issue thing in one of the temples here in T.O. a few years ago. Exactly that same thing, with a big, bloody riot.

My whole idea would be to not let in any other groups who do not conform to the way this country was set up, i.e. as a Christian-morals based society. That would mean, you guessed it, no X, Y or Z. Go ahead, call me all the "ist" names, I don't care. I don't think there is one honest person who would disagree that we would have been better off that way. I've heard all the propaganda about how other "cultures" enrich our society. You know what? Our country, culture and society was already "rich."

We had schools that worked, that did not need "English as a second language" interpreters, streets that were for the most part safe and clean. A person could walk downtown and not be pestered by urine-soaked "street persons" and "squeegee kids." Old people could get their pension cheques and spend them, not having to lock themselves in some kind of self-imposed prison to protect themselves from the worthless trash who prey upon the elderly, women and children.

Now I cannot say "Merry Christmas" lest some self-appointed culture-Gestapo agent take me to task for offending the sensibilities of some person\group\religion who came here to get away from the unbearable conditions of their own homeland and take for granted the welfare and freedom of this society, to which they contributed nothing. I am tired of hearing about Canadian born families who are too poor to get their kid's braces for their crooked teeth, while some "refugee" floats here or comes in a plane and flushes his papers down the toilet gets put up in a hotel at the airport, gets his meals and free healthcare, for himself and his many uncles, cousins, grandparents, while my Dad who has had a job since he was 12 gets cut back on his drugs by the gov't. Get the picture? Do you see why I despise the whole multicultural-gay rights-love everything but your own religion-culture-heritage movement? Now, excuse me while I go off and lie down, I am so sick of thinking about it.

Mylo42
09-16-2005, 11:57 AM
Kaleun,

Bulls eye.... I hear you...loud and clear.

My wife and I often get into this very debate. I'm hardcore, like you. She lives in what I call a "Make believe world", yet she is very worldly and educated. (I still don't quite get it). In her world, things should be fair. People should treat people fairly. Nice concept. In my world, things are real. Real problems, of course, requiring real solutions.

I agree with you 100% on the "If you want to live here, you live under our rules" point of view. I forgot to mention that in my little blurb about if you can contribute to society, you are welcome. I forgot to follow that up with..."However, if you want to live here, you are now Canadian and live by Canadian rules. You will leave everything of your former homeland behind, including all violence and hatred for another type of people. If you like your former homeland so much that you can not do this....stay in your former homeland." I, like you, do not feel multicultralism has made this country "rich". I do not care to see "Little China town" ....if I think little China town would be something I would like to experience, I will go to China for a visit and enjoy their culture, heritage, and people. At first glance, this may appear racist. I guess what it is is culturalist..ist..ist. ...whatever. I want Canada to be Canadian. I have many, many friends and colleagues that are of every back ground, skin colour, and race known to man. I respect and value all of them. Why ? because they are good people. Heck, my wife and I adopted an abandonned little Haitian girl that is the light of our lives. I know what I am...a criminalist. I do loath criminals, whatever their background may be.

As for your dad, mine's in the same boat. Been a hard working tax payer all his life but was never able to squirrel anything away because he was providing for a family and had too much pride to be out of work or ask for help (that generation didn't understand the concept of investments for the future. It was "earn a living and put food on the table"), and is now looking for work in his mid 60's because he can't afford to retire. The position he was "laid off" from was filled with a "minority" so that the company could get their quota of minorities up to political par. 35 years meant squat. They gave him some BS excuse to cover their legal ***e$. My dad can work harder than any 3 people put together that I know...including myself. My wife and I are now preparing to support our parents in their retirement years.

"Enriching our society"........my a$$.

Jeez.....I better lie down too.

Without a doubt Kaleun, you and I would be friends if we ever met.

joeap
09-16-2005, 12:09 PM
Well forgive me for butting in, I agree with you to an extent, but I think little "China" towns are fun. What's wrgon with having different restaurants for example? Sicne we have freedom of religion people can and should celebrate their festivals, as long as they don't impost it on the majority and leave the political **** out of it. I am alos a Canadian but of Greek origin, so I should not celebrate easter following our date and orthodox customs? We do buy chocolate like other Canadians....and celebrate Xmas and Thanksgiving like other Canucks. Going waaaaay off topic now but that's ok.

Mylo42
09-16-2005, 01:14 PM
joeap,

I don't like China towns....Russian towns....German towns.....whatever towns in Canada. The reason is, I don't like feeling like a foreigner in my own country. I do not see "Little Canadian Towns (whatever Canadian towns are...which is the very issue here) in the heart of Bejing. I do not see "Little Canadian towns" in the greater Berlin area, nor do I see them in Athens. I would not expect that. I am asking that the same respect be granted to Canada by the very politicians that govern this country. Respect Canada you guys...c'mon PM Martin.

If a Japaneese family wants to open up a Japanees restaraunt anywhere in Canada, fantastic. This is great, I like Japaneese food and when I want to experience that, I should be able to walk through an English speaking Christian community, and enjoy Japaneese food.....or Italian....or German....or Greek (love the salads by the way). The point that Kaleun and I are talking about, is foreign peoples having the God given right to practice anything they want in the name of "Multi-culturalism" at the EXPENSE of the decent Canadian society as a whole. What I mean by expense is...for eg...religeous uprisings that result in bloodshed and death....by having angry mobs oppose the deportation of a terrorist foreign criminal from Canadian soil....and this mob being of the same cultural background as that terrorist to boot. By having something so Canadian as the Royal Canadian Mounted Police allowing a Sik to wear a turban as part of the RCMP cerimonial uniform because it's part of his culture. What about our culture ?? We are here in Canada, we should be concerned about our culture. You want to be a Mountie, great, the stetson is the head dress of the cerimonial uniform. If your religeon can not accept this, you can not be a member of the Royal CANADIAN Mounted Police. I do not see this as descriminatory whatsoever. I would never expect to go to New Delhi, join the New Delhi National Peoples United Police Force, and DEMAND that I be able to wear a stetson, when the head dress is a turban. Just as I would not expect to go to Lithuania, become a street person, and expect, no, DAMAND, that the Lithuanian government support me financially and give me the right to smash my Canadian hockey stick over the head of any person who opposes the Toronto Maple Leafs...because it's part of my religeon. (Ask any Canadian...hockey IS religeon over here).

If people of a different culture want to practice their own type of religeon in a peaceful manner, I certainly have no problem with that. But religeon being what it is, I suspect that practicing it in public would not go over because it would be offending some other religeon. Next thing you know....people are stabbing people with religeous daggers in the name of something holy. So...freedom of religeon, certainly...practice your beliefs and religeon in the comforts of your home without fear but realize, you are in Canada and have respect for traditional Canadian values, which include....no violent to the death religeous uprisings with cerimonial daggers please.

joeap, My intention with this rant is not to offend you, or any other person. I have no reason at all to believe you are not a decent person. I certainly hope I did not suggest otherwise about you, or anyone else. I believe in the entirety of my comments, I have not slandered or "bad mouthed" a single group (except criminals). I simply want a country to call home and an identity as a Canadian to go with it...and I would like that salvaged before it's too late. My grandfather, who was an immigrant from Germany, who fled the war to come here, who left all his German culture behind to become a Canadian, who worked his entire days here for the Canadian Pacific Railway doing manual labour on a scale many of us will never comprehend, to build a nation, to call it home and be proud of it, ......would be rolling in his grave if he could see what this country has become.

Mylo42

TheRealWulfmann
09-16-2005, 08:01 PM
Believe me when I say the same forces are hard at work here in the USA to destroy personal freedom.
Our constitution is the only thing that has prevented it and some still insist in reinterpreting that to mean something than originally intended.
While many can not figure why we voted in Bush, your post€s are perfect examples.
Perhaps you forgot the assault Bill Clinton made on firearms in the early to mid nineties (which caused the biggest purchasing of firearms in our history). John Kerry was a supporter of the second amendment but he believes it means the states have the right to form their own militias. Bush rightly believes any law abiding citizen should have the right to own a gun and protect himself.
When the Janet Reno lead attacks on Ruby Ridge and Waco occurred the president of Hand Gun Control said they set gun control back an entire generation. Sure they did. That is what happens when government is not checked; they do what ever they want. The House and Senate went conservative under BC and then Bush with Gun control considered the deciding factor in 2000.
Some argue the second amendment means a militia as in state military but when asked who the militia is during the constitutional debates Patrick Henry (Give me liberty or give me death) answered; €œThe citizenry, those individual citizens.€
When one looks at a map of the US in crime figures it is amazing how easy it is to see gun control is a farce. Where there is tight control for law abiding citizens the crime is high; where gun laws are open for law abiding people to defend themselves, crime is low.
In 1994 I was buying a place in the country in east central Florida and called the sheriff as I was unfamiliar with living in a more remote place and was concerned about crime. He told me there was virtually no crime because it was gun country. €œCriminals do not go where people can legally shot on their own property, it is too dangerous for them.€
In Florida we have conservative values. 20 years ago we passed the first law that any law abiding person could not be denied a permit to carry a concealed weapon. The media said there would be blood ankle deep in the streets. Miami was a leading murder city (Remember the Cocaine cowboys?).
Well, crime dropped, violent crime dropped huge for women and minorities now that they could neutralize strength. Since then 33 states have adopted this and every single one has a drop in violent crime (but an increase in Burglary and car thefts, Criminals don€t switch jobs, just do less dangerous ones). And those cocaine cowboys no longer had control once any one else could shoot back.
The biggest reason we are happy about Bush is the appointment of conservative judges that believe it is their job to interpret the law to reflect the intent of the founding fathers in our constitution and not liberal ideas of changes to progressive government control of the people for their own good.
These laws have nothing to do with safety, just the safety of those in power (notice they are well protected!)
Gun control is not about Guns, it is about control.
In the first real democracy Socrates warned the ancient Greeks €œAny government that fears an armed population, should be feared by that population.€
Nothing has changed and the real concern for liberty is who holds the power. Canada and Australia have joined most of the world in turning control over to the central government.
80 million gun owners are determined to not let that happen here. We would rather be dead than live without liberty.
Your examples have proven this all the more

Wulfmann

Kaleun1961
09-16-2005, 09:04 PM
Amen, Wulf.

Like Mylo, I've got no problem with the Europeans who have made Canada their home. I grew up in and went to school in a mainly Italian and Greek neighbourhood. My best buddy's parents are Greek, so I've got no problem with them. Europeans are not the problem, never have been. I feel safe in any Italian, Greek, Polish area. I don't feel safe in the third world enclaves that have sprouted up the last few decades.

Those neighbourhoods are rife with drugs and gun crime by criminal elements. The multicult lovers insist on shoving these people and their alien values down our throats, and when we resist we are called racists.

Like you say Wulf, these punks feel no fear because they can walk down any street with no fear from regular folks, who are disarmed and vulnerable by their own honesty and integrity. I don't feel at home anymore in my own province, in the city in which I was born and raised. I am the minority, I am the alien, I am the stranger. And it sucks. I just want to finish getting my kids through school and then move on.

TheRealWulfmann
09-17-2005, 08:46 AM
This week; Sept 17-23, is constitution week in the USA of which few notice. Most just don€t understand that is what has made the difference with erosion of individual rights.

I read something I thought was interesting. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

No where in the constitution is the government guaranteed the right to bear arms. Only the private citizens have that right cemented in the Bill of Rights which is the people€s Bible

€œ€€ Look at some of the verbiage in the Bill of Rights: "Congress shall make no law..." (First Amendment; "...shall not be infringed." (Second Amendment); "...shall not be violated..." (Fourth Amendment); "...shall not be construed to deny..." (Ninth Amendment). These phrases protect the people; they don't empower the government. In a way, the Bill of Rights is where we the people get to say "no" to the government. €œ€€

from a news article

The rest of the world is determined to give up their freedom for security which they will not get when they do.
Conservative and moderate people should take back their countries or come here for the last stand of free people.

Wulfmann http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Mylo42
09-17-2005, 10:39 AM
Wulf,

While I do not agree with some American policies, I envy your sence of Nationalism (By God when you are in America you are an American.....I like that. People flying "Old Glory" and really singing their national anthem...I like that too), and how it appears, at least from my standpoint, that the government still works for the people, or at least has the decency to pretend to, and not the other way around like it is here. I've often thought "Man, if this were the States that goofball politician would have been assasinated by now for lying, cheating, and robbing (blindly and blatantly) the taxpayers of what is rightly theirs and turning this beautiful nation into a joke..a garbage heap, and laughable in every regard. We can't even be proud of our peace keepers anymore as they tool around in old worn out junk, while another billion here, and billion there is pissed out some parliament hill window. I really feel sorry for those men and women in our "armed forces". American people just don't put up with that BS". ...or do they ?? Is either one of our systems perfect and without flaw....*laughs*...not even remotely. Is injecting a forein object into the whole equation, trying to assimilate it into the greater whole, making this problem any easier to deal with ?? ...answer is obvious. Multiculuralism is ruining this nation. I will hold that opinion until I see otherwise.

Like Kaleun, I am feeling more and more like a minority in my own country. This does not sit well with me. It would be one thing if the place was being improved, but it's not. We cater and cater to the likes of people from parts of the world who can not even comprehend the freedoms this nation enjoys. They come here, get involved in the drug / prostitution / weapons trade and laugh at the fact that there is no reprisal. In their home nations, they would be executed on the spot for their crimes, for crimes much less severe than the ones they are committing here. In Canada, the taxpayers PAY for THEIR lawyers to defend them. Ok....let me get this straight...the taxpayers are paying to try and get one more crazy gun toting crystal meth dealer of foreign origin BACK on the street so he/she can sell his poison to our 12 year old Canadian youth in the playgrounds ?? ...and this is sane ?? ...this is right ?? or just ?? ...this is improving our nation in the name of Multiculturalism ?? We have enough drug/weapons/prostitution dealers of Canadian origin....we don't need more of foreign nationality by the boatful, thanks anyway. (Where the heck is that old Brit sub I was talking about.....oh ya...still in drydock getting fixed..or is it getting fixed ??).

If things get much worse, I am seriously considering applying for American citizenship. I am employable, of good character, and don't have a criminal record. Hopefully this is enough to get me in. Imagine....how would you feel if you got punted out of America, forced to come to Canada, simply because your country is being over run by undesireables with your government supporthing the whole idea ? I dare say you wouldn't be putting up with that. Americans have more sense than that. Canadians don't. We're pushovers.

For now, I'm just glad that I'm armed most of the time. Oh ya...I have to be...little dirt bags are making a sport out of hunting enforcement officers to make a name for themselves in their drug gangs. I mean why not, we'll pay to defend them and at worst, they'll be convicted and get 7 years or so, serve 30 months in an institution that provides them with a roof, 3 meals, and entertainment, which is a higher standard of living than they are used to, and be back on the street to celebrate their victory....and that's if they get caught. Anybody thinking I'm exagerating a blue streak, or thinking "C'mon, this is Canada, it's not that bad", is not involved in it on a street level. If you do hold onto those perceptions, please don't be alarmed when you get car jacked at gunpoint by someone that doesn't speak your language. ....at least you will have experienced some of their culture.

Mylo42

TheRealWulfmann
09-17-2005, 12:16 PM
Mylo42,
There are parts of America not unlike Canada in those regards. So, when you come, you will want to consider where you go.
The Liberals were well on their way to do the same thing here.
With the media liberal as well, they thought they were ready in 93-94 to push through the final solution to the old constitutional order of our founding fathers. Instead they got a quiet revolt at the ballot box which cost them both houses of congress, then the presidency and now a supreme court that will hold the constitution as intended for at least another 20 years.
As liberals migrate south fleeing their high crime, high taxes for warmer climates they dumbfoundedly insist we change Florida to be like what the fled.
It makes no sense. Don€t they have a clue as to why they fled???
So we have given up on those three southern counties (remember them in the 2000 election??)
I am thinking of leaving Florida before it succumbs but as of now where I live is very nice and we have a huge gun club and our state government has all but erased the liberal€s stench of diminished personal rights.
The latest thing the liberals want to do is after a felon is released he gets his voting rights back (this means his right to have a gun!!!!) Hello, is anybody home???
But, you see most of the people in prison are democrats (not making any judgment on this) and by restoring their rights they hope to gain more power. With thinking like that should they have any power at all???? LOL
This is a never ending battle to remain free and reasonable with the government not in control of our lives.
The only thing that need happen for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing!!

Wulfmann

Yen Lo
09-17-2005, 09:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mylo42:
Wulf,

While I do not agree with some American policies, I envy your sence of Nationalism (By God when you are in America you are an American.....I like that. People flying "Old Glory" and really singing their national anthem...I like that too), and how it appears, at least from my standpoint, that the government still works for the people, or at least has the decency to pretend to, and not the other way around like it is here. I've often thought "Man, if this were the States that goofball politician would have been assasinated by now for lying, cheating, and robbing (blindly and blatantly) the taxpayers of what is rightly theirs and turning this beautiful nation into a joke..a garbage heap, and laughable in every regard. We can't even be proud of our peace keepers anymore as they tool around in old worn out junk, while another billion here, and billion there is pissed out some parliament hill window. I really feel sorry for those men and women in our "armed forces". American people just don't put up with that BS". ...or do they ?? Is either one of our systems perfect and without flaw....*laughs*...not even remotely. Is injecting a forein object into the whole equation, trying to assimilate it into the greater whole, making this problem any easier to deal with ?? ...answer is obvious. Multiculuralism is ruining this nation. I will hold that opinion until I see otherwise.

Like Kaleun, I am feeling more and more like a minority in my own country. This does not sit well with me. It would be one thing if the place was being improved, but it's not. We cater and cater to the likes of people from parts of the world who can not even comprehend the freedoms this nation enjoys. They come here, get involved in the drug / prostitution / weapons trade and laugh at the fact that there is no reprisal. In their home nations, they would be executed on the spot for their crimes, for crimes much less severe than the ones they are committing here. In Canada, the taxpayers PAY for THEIR lawyers to defend them. Ok....let me get this straight...the taxpayers are paying to try and get one more crazy gun toting crystal meth dealer of foreign origin BACK on the street so he/she can sell his poison to our 12 year old Canadian youth in the playgrounds ?? ...and this is sane ?? ...this is right ?? or just ?? ...this is improving our nation in the name of Multiculturalism ?? We have enough drug/weapons/prostitution dealers of Canadian origin....we don't need more of foreign nationality by the boatful, thanks anyway. (Where the heck is that old Brit sub I was talking about.....oh ya...still in drydock getting fixed..or is it getting fixed ??).

If things get much worse, I am seriously considering applying for American citizenship. I am employable, of good character, and don't have a criminal record. Hopefully this is enough to get me in. Imagine....how would you feel if you got punted out of America, forced to come to Canada, simply because your country is being over run by undesireables with your government supporthing the whole idea ? I dare say you wouldn't be putting up with that. Americans have more sense than that. Canadians don't. We're pushovers.

For now, I'm just glad that I'm armed most of the time. Oh ya...I have to be...little dirt bags are making a sport out of hunting enforcement officers to make a name for themselves in their drug gangs. I mean why not, we'll pay to defend them and at worst, they'll be convicted and get 7 years or so, serve 30 months in an institution that provides them with a roof, 3 meals, and entertainment, which is a higher standard of living than they are used to, and be back on the street to celebrate their victory....and that's if they get caught. Anybody thinking I'm exagerating a blue streak, or thinking "C'mon, this is Canada, it's not that bad", is not involved in it on a street level. If you do hold onto those perceptions, please don't be alarmed when you get car jacked at gunpoint by someone that doesn't speak your language. ....at least you will have experienced some of their culture.

Mylo42 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My Bro in Law gave up his English citizary for America. Apparently no regerts yet lol.

Kaleun1961
09-18-2005, 09:30 AM
It is very difficult to give up citizenship in one's country of origin. I've always felt that I was extremely fortunate to have been born and raised in Canada.

We are blessed with the world's largest fresh water reserves. We are also blessed with the world's largest petroleum reserves, larger than Saudi Arabias's; hard to believe that, but they are largely locked up for now in the "tar sands." In addition to these we are also blessed with enormous mineral and agricultural wealth.

Yet, the people who run this country have managed to make us a nation of have-nots, running up a national debt of hundreds of billions of dollars in a few short decades. Coincidental, I might add, with the beginning of the love affair with state socialism that began in the 1960's with that Liberal of Liberals, Pierre Trudeau. He first began the tradition of annual budget deficits of billions, in order to build his socialist Utopia, replete with official bilingualism and multiculturalism and the welfare state.

I always wonder how the Japanese would have managed this country. They have managed to build the world's second largest economy on a collection of small islands, almost bereft of natural resources. Their strength lies in the unity and ingenuity of her people, a racially and culturally homogeneous society, which values family, order and country.

It is at the point now that I am often ashamed of what this country does here at home and on the world stage. We deliberately set forth to undermine the efforts of our main benefactor, the U.S., under whose protection we exist since we spend almost nothing on national defence [a luxury we may indulge in, since, as we know, the U.S. simply cannot afford to allow us to be invaded or threatened by any hostile power.]

Ideologically, I am no longer at home here in Ontario. If I were to move away, it would be either to the east, in Newfoundland, the home of my parents and an island of lovely people, or to the west, where the people still have conservative values. Or, as my buddy who is a professor at U of T suggests, Texas. He says I may as well, since my values are so alike his. Of all the nations of the world, I value England for its historical and cultural heritage, and the United States, for its traditions of freedom and opportunity. Sadly, England, like Canada, is also in peril of losing itself under the tide of change.

Mylo42
09-18-2005, 05:14 PM
I'm making my last stand here in Saskatchewan. My move here was influenced in no small part to the fact that I feel this is probably the last place an immigrant of poor character is likely to move to, with the exception of maybe the arctic, and I've considered that too. These people, as Keleun is all too aware of, seek the larger population centres where crime opportunities are much greater. I mean, if they want, they can come out here, steal a farm tractor, and pawn it, I suppose. ...but I'm playing the odds they'll stay to the likes of the major centres. Pretty sad....I've been backed into a corner...or in the centre, as it were.

I have thought the exact same thing when it comes to the Japaneese. I have a lot of respect for that culture. Could you imagine....the Japaneese with the resource base of Canada ?? Stand back and set the stage for the immergence of another great world Superpower.

Kaleun, Careful how far west you go, if that's the direction you decide to travel. You definately don't want Vancouver. Edmonton and Calgary in the hub of "red neck country" Alberta, are riddled with Vietnamese gangs battling for control of the underworld. Newfoundland sounds about the best to me. Having thought of that, I would probably try out there before I put my green card papers in to the U.S. authorities.

Wulf, If I was to live in the States, it would be somewhere like Colorado, Wyoming, or Montana. Are those places still decent ?

Mylo42

MobyGrape
09-18-2005, 08:12 PM
Yep they drag Minorities Behind cars, carry guns and probably smack around Gays..you'd love it

Kaleun1961
09-18-2005, 08:56 PM
Here we go... Why do you assume that not being in love with the Liberal multicultural view of Canada = dragging minorities behind cars, etc?

TheRealWulfmann
09-18-2005, 09:03 PM
Typical liberal, Moby is. Outright lies, exaggerates and distorts reality to incite when there is no truth to support his desire for socialism.
I simply do not know any conservatives that believe remotely as Moby tries to stereo type.
It€s like the all French are rude routine. While Paris can be like that I found the rest of the French friendly folk but some just can't stand reality and must fabricate as if that will make it so.
Next Moby will tell us all how wonderful Cuba is.
I am sure Moby would love Canada. Make America a better place and please go Moby!!!

Colorado is not as conservative as one might think. The others are, to my knowledge. I was thinking the Austin Texas area because of the good weather, mild humidity, which makes summer nice and rarely snows and very conservative.

Wulfmann

wnt2rd
09-18-2005, 09:23 PM
The Phoenix New Fiber chocolate chip cookies were promoted as aids in weight control and as cures for colon cancer and other diseases. In 1990, the Food and Drug Administration got the skinny on the "weight control" cookies--they had twice the calories, half the fiber, and five times the fat declared in the products' labeling. The cookies could be dangerous to diabetics, who often need to control their food intake, and to people with other ailments, who might rely on the unsupported disease claims and forego effective therapy.

But FDA didn't take the company to court to get the cookies off the market. The agency didn't have to because the distributor voluntarily recalled the goods.

A recall is a firm's removal or correction of a marketed product when that product violates the laws enforced by FDA. Unlike FDA's other tools for achieving compliance, such as seizures and injunctions, recalls are almost always voluntary. FDA can't order a company to recall a product, except in some cases involving infant formulas, biological products, and devices that present a serious hazard to health.

Before taking a company to court, FDA usually notifies the responsible person of the violation and provides an opportunity to correct the problem. In most situations, a violation results from a mistake by the company rather than from an intentional disregard for the law.

"Recall is by far a better choice than seizure to protect the public, particularly when the product has been widely distributed," says Willie Bryant, emergency operations coordinator in FDA's division of emergency and epidemiological operations (DEEO). Recall is far less costly and time-consuming than a court procedure, and it gets defective products off the market more quickly.

Without Phoenix's cooperation, it would have been difficult to track down and retrieve the hundreds of thousands of cases of Phoenix cookies that had been distributed to 55,000 weight-loss counselors nationwide.

In Phoenix's case, the goods were returned to the firm for correction. But in some cases, a correction is made in the field, where the product is being used.

"There are many factors that come into play in deciding whether to remove the product from the market or correct the problem in the field," Bryant says. "It depends on the type of product, the problem, and how the company intends to correct the problem."

Many recalled devices are not returned to the manufacturer or distributor. An x-ray or dialysis machine, for example, is so large that it is usually more practical to correct the problem on-site. Foods and drugs are almost always returned, but even then some problems may be corrected at the wholesale or retail site. For example, a labeling violation can sometimes be corrected by simply sticking a new label on the product.


We must stand together for truth in product labeling within the cookie industry!

MobyGrape
09-18-2005, 11:28 PM
My lies..sorry It's your hapless spin..
I'm, not after a socialist agenda..Although its obvious you all could benefit from social interaction.

Report card..
Doesn't play well together.

Mylo42
09-19-2005, 09:07 AM
Moby,

I get a ton of social interaction. I enjoy and respect my interaction with good decent people of all races, colours, backgrounds. Do I enjoy my interaction with the likes that would just as soon stick a knife in you as look at you.....uhh..not really. Would I enjoy that interaction with the new "Canadian Citizen" who is bound and determined to rape the country of everything it can because it's way easier here than in the country of his/her birth....not really on that one too. In the entirety of my ramblings, find a racial comment. Show me one line that would hint or suggest I, or anyone else that posted here, don't value good people, of whatever background. Yes, I have said that those same people should not push their ethnic culture here in Canada if they wish to be Canadian citizens, and I stand by that. Do I value that decent person, certainly. Do I respect them and their culture, absolutely....which is why I am asking of the same respect of my Canadain culture, heritage, and way of life. You must have skimmed over my comment of "Gays are the least of my concern. The ones I've met have been good people." If I was a gay basher, I likely wouldn't have said that. The same gay that kills his partner in a fit of rage with a fire place poker.....I've got no use for him.

As for the dragging of minorities behind cars, if they were the minorities, majorities, whatever colour under the sun or nationality, including our own born and bred Canadian trash, that were responsible for victimizing the decent people of society, ....I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

Soooo typical. Put the blinders on, don't read or listen to anything anyone is saying, construe everything to "put down" someones opinion in the name of everything decent. If you have an arguement supported by any kind of rationale, by all means....but leave the racial BS behind.

I'll even help you. The topic here is:

Immigrants / foreigners of BAD CHARACTER (eg. Criminals...people who do bad things to other people) are not good for a decent, moral society, particularly when we blanket all these types with welcome arms in the name of Multiculturalism. Our own Canadian born trash, as I put it, isn't any good either, but the focus was more on accepting more trash of foreign origin. NOTE * Foreign TRASH = not welcome. Good decent foreign people = welcome. I can't break it down much simpler than that.

Mylo42

joeap
09-19-2005, 11:17 AM
Well said Mylo. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kaleun1961
09-19-2005, 11:48 AM
Wait for it... the inevitable apoplectic fit http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

daldrum2005
09-19-2005, 01:06 PM
To Mylo, Kaleun etc.:
Guys, I do not know you, but from what I read in this "decent" good old fashioned talk, well, I sense a great deal of very dangerous nationalism which gives me the creeps and the selfrighteousness and confidence with with you air your good old fashioned opinions gives me unpleasant feelings, I do not really know how to put it, well could you pack your good old fashioned-nationalistic-talk bag and go somewhere else? I cannot belive that there has not been any strong reactions to this nationalist ****, yet! Go to a private forum to talk about this ****, Please.

Kaleun1961
09-19-2005, 01:15 PM
Speaking of decency, from the censored bits of your post I wonder how you define the word.

Anyhow, I agree. I do not wish to belabour the point. I am not a rabid nationalist. There is no neutral arena in which legitimate dissent from established government policy is allowed. Anything which questions the current bias of the immigration policy is automatically labelled racist or some variant thereof.

When free and open debate is suppressed, then it has only the outlet of extremism left to it.

TheRealWulfmann
09-19-2005, 01:19 PM
Before he throws another tantrum and starts expressing his lefest views in profanity, LMAO.

You see guys, if you post, he must come and read it. He can not simply say, want no part of that, I disagree.
No, he says, he does not like it and if he does not like it; then it should not be done.

You know the name of the post, €œD05€ so ignore it, please!!!!!

For those of us that still believe in democratic principles and are just discussing them; humor us comrade!!

Wulfmann

daldrum2005
09-19-2005, 01:24 PM
:-)))

daldrum2005
09-19-2005, 01:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Speaking of decency, from the censored bits of your post I wonder how you define the word. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IT has been censored, hhm, it must have been, to your standards, something very bad! Well, I am sure it is less frightening than your **** good old fashioned talk.

daldrum2005
09-19-2005, 01:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Immigrants / foreigners of BAD CHARACTER (eg. Criminals...people who do bad things to other people) are not good for a decent, moral society, particularly when we blanket all these types with welcome arms in the name of Multiculturalism. Our own Canadian born trash, as I put it, isn't any good either, but the focus was more on accepting more trash of foreign origin. NOTE * Foreign TRASH = not welcome. Good decent foreign people = welcome. I can't break it down much simpler than that.
Mylo42 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, to be construcive, how do tell a decent immigrant from trash? How can you tell a good person from a bad one (I am talking about a immigration officer /or the likes/ having to decide who might be good for your society and who should be sent back)? Of course I am not talking about looking into a criminal record.

Kaleun1961
09-19-2005, 01:56 PM
The problem here is that inadequate criminal record checks are made. In many cases, the sending country is only too glad to be rid of the person. Then, when a foreign-born person becomes a criminal in this country, they are not deported immediately.

What is so "scary" about our "good old-fashioned talk?" Do you enjoy seeing your country's streets being taken over by foreign criminal street gangs? Are you a self-hating white liberal? Is that what is going on here?

You only seem able to equate dissent with cross burning, dragging minorities behind pickup trucks, gun toting and so on.

As for discerning criminals from undesirables, why should our country's immigation policy be to discriminate against educate, skilled, white Europeans in favour of Asian, African, third-world, non-English speaking, unskilled and undereducated persons? Really, that is what it comes down to. Our housing projects are overwhelmingly filled by people from outside of this country. Where is the benefit to this country's taxpayers? How does it benefit us to bring in people who end up on welfare?

It would seem to me that if country X sends us a lot of people who end up being criminals or on welfare, that the solution would be not to bring in any more people from country X. Is that wrong according to your morality? Or is it somehow the responsibility of this country and its citizens to bring here all of the world's problems and then put them in welfare ghettos?

daldrum2005
09-19-2005, 02:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It would seem to me that if country X sends us a lot of people who end up being criminals or on welfare, that the solution would be not to bring in any more people from country X. Is that wrong according to your morality? Or is it somehow the responsibility of this country and its citizens to bring here all of the world's problems and then put them in welfare ghettos? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There si no country that sends its citizens abroad, it a decision of an individual for either for political or economical reasons or both. And as for the rest of the quoted paragraph, I am liberal and I see that this world's countries (be it "rich" western countries and "poor" EasternEuropean, Middle-East, Asian ect countries) are so interconnected, especially businesswise, that there is a great contradiction in what you say. For example many large companies, big brands use cheap EastEuropean, Asian labour to make their profits and uphold the good old american brand, they use cheap labour to produce their good brand goods, well, all I am saying that I see the world closely interconnected and I cannot agree with your talk about immmigrants thrash. You are talking is immigrants thrash and that you have enough of your "own" thrash. And that when an immigrant commits a crime, he should be sent back to his own coutry (this could be the same as death penalty in a extreme situation). Where will you send your own citizens? To Mars? I have no easy definite answer to this, I just do do think that your division between the "native" citizens and immigrants is the answer.

daldrum2005
09-19-2005, 02:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by daldrum2005:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It would seem to me that if country X sends us a lot of people who end up being criminals or on welfare, that the solution would be not to bring in any more people from country X. Is that wrong according to your morality? Or is it somehow the responsibility of this country and its citizens to bring here all of the world's problems and then put them in welfare ghettos? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There si no country that sends its citizens abroad, it a decision of an individual for either for political or economical reasons or both. And as for the rest of the quoted paragraph, I am liberal and I see that this world's countries (be it "rich" western countries and "poor" EasternEuropean, Middle-East, Asian ect countries) are so interconnected, especially businesswise, that there is a great "contradiction" in what you say. For example many large companies, big brands use cheap EastEuropean, Asian labour to make their profits and uphold the good old american brand, they use cheap labour to produce their good brand goods, well, all I am saying that I see the world closely interconnected and I cannot agree with your talk about immmigrants thrash. You are talking about some immigrants as thrash and that you have enough of your "own" thrash. And that when an immigrant commits a crime, he should be sent back to his own coutry (this could be the same as death penalty in a extreme situation). Where will you send your own citizens? To Mars? I have no (easy definite) answer to this, I just do think that your division between the "native" citizens and immigrants is not the way to go. Also, who is valuable person for you? And who should be sent back? Also think, what source of information you use. Should be a desperate family be sent back just because they have nothing to offer to your society according your opinion (or some immihration officer), because they have no "decent" edication? Really, is it all that simple?
Also, you or one of your soulmates indicated that US countries where one has right to have arms without a big hassle are safer than the rest of the world, well is there any proof? In my opinion I am extremely glad that in my country it is not easy to own a gun (although it is quite easy for criminals to get one even here). Still, to hear shooting in the streets of my country is extremely rare. This is a big cultural difference. So, your opinion about the right to bear arms is very questionable. I could go on, but I am tired, now. Good night. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

W.Irving
09-19-2005, 04:20 PM
May I suggest the Nationstates forums?

http://www.nationstates.net

Become a member, go to the forums. Lots of trolling + flaming. (:

Kaleun1961
09-19-2005, 05:15 PM
If I were a citizen from some country in which I would have faced the death penalty, I would certainly behave myself in a new country.

What is "thrash?"

What we do with our own who commit crimes is put them in jail. I do not value a criminal citizen over a criminal immigrant.

Some countries do drive out their own citizens. Paradise countries, like Cuba. Other countries are glad to be rid of their trouble makers, so they tell the host country that this guy has a clean record.

Nobody here has made the claim all immigration is bad. You are presuming that in your own biased way. The issue is people who come to our country and then break the law.

Your argument against the value of a potential immigrant is senseless. Are you saying that we somehow have an obligation to admit people to this country who have nothing to offer? Since when does immigration policy become foreign aid?

Likewise your "argument" in favour of gun control. Let's see if I understand you correctly: You are in favour of gun control, but criminals will obtain guns anyway? Therefore honest citizens should not have guns to protect themselves? How does that make you safer? Experience has shown that in situations where citizens may legally protect their property, crime declines, mainly because the criminals are afraid to tread there.

What city streets are safe with armed criminals abounding? Look at my home city of Toronto. It is experiencing explosive rates of shootings by criminal gangs. Take a look at what happened in New Orleans, with all the scum coming out of hiding to prey upon the helpless victims of the hurricane.

I did not make any claims about American counties. Do not call me somebody's soulmate based on your own inferences.

Mylo42
09-19-2005, 06:29 PM
Yes, I have nationalists views. I want a nation and I want to be proud of that nation. I want to see it and it's DECENT citizens, of every race, colour, sexual orientation, ethnic background etc prosper, and feel safe to live and raise a family here, proud to call themselves Canadians. If this frightens you......... ????, you scare very easily. ....Downtown of any major centre in this Country, particularly in the dark alleyways...now THAT's frightening. In the gallery watching court proceedings of a murder trial and seeing the "legal system" (NOTE: I did not call it a justice system) at work. That's scary.

Kaleun, again, I agree with you. We are not an international welfare system or landfil. Let's pay for foreign dirtbag / dirtbag(ess) X's lawyer to get him off a drug charge while guys like your father get their medical coverage slashed due to no funding. That's scary. Seniors living in poverty, seniors that have worked their intire lives to build this nation, living in poverty due to pension plan cuts.....while some loser DEMANDS a foreign language interpreter when the POS speaks english perfectly well, but knows the taxpayers must pay for a translator. Then, he will appeal his murder conviction based on the fact that this very expensive interpreter, paid for by Mr. Average BLOW citizen, trying to make a living for his family paying 45% income tax, "misinterpretted" what he said in court so....another $50,000 or $100,000 has to be spent on a re-trial.........while back in his/her country of origin, they would have put him before the firing squad in 3 days for the same crime. That's scary. I haven't even touched on the fact that these foreign degenerates make life that much more difficult for the decent people of the same heritage that have become Canadian citizens. If I was of Hungarian decent, became a Canadian citizen, worked hard, paid taxes, and was a decent upstanding, and well respected member of my community....and some Hungarian thug slipped over here, set up a meth factory, and sold his product to 12 year olds, got caught, demanded this, that, or the other thing, I would want that person deported faster than anybody as it would reflect very poorly on all Hungarians. I would ask that any decent Canadian citizen of foreign origin please speak up if I have offended you and I will apologize on the spot.

....and this is scary ??

I envy you, for obviously living in, and experiencing a very high quality of life, without any exposure to this stuff. Don't worry, you share the same opinion as our gov't leaders and things definately aren't going to change because a couple Canucks get on some game forum and express their frustration. People aren't used to people from Canada piping up in this way....it must seem wierd. Things will remain as they are...funny thing is, you'll never see the PM going for a stroll in the urban ghettos.

Mylo42

daldrum2005
09-20-2005, 12:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I envy you, for obviously living in, and experiencing a very high quality of life, without any exposure to this stuff. Don't worry, you share the same opinion as our gov't leaders and things definately aren't going to change because a couple Canucks get on some game forum and express their frustration. People aren't used to people from Canada piping up in this way....it must seem wierd. Things will remain as they are...funny thing is, you'll never see the PM going for a stroll in the urban ghettos.

Mylo42 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, guys, We obviously have very different experiences and views and I am not saying that all you say is all BS, but you are strong nationalist and I have never understood the Nationalist attitudes.
by the way, Canada (have never been there) is in my opinion on of the most tolerant countries so it is actually kind of funny to read your views. I come from the Czech republic, I wonder what you know and think about CR? Any experience with "thrash" from the Czech Rep?

Kaleun1961
09-20-2005, 01:45 AM
No problems with Czechs. Great hockey players.

You know what? I'm tired of this pointless arguing. I'm going back to the game. We may debate\argue back and forth for weeks and neither one will change the other's opinions. I'm not here to make enemies, so I'm packing it in with this thread.

daldrum2005
09-20-2005, 02:48 AM
That is exactly what I was going to say. Enjoy the game, I mean life:-)

Mylo42
09-20-2005, 08:04 AM
I would like to thank everyone for their comments and opinions. I found the discussion interesting. However, I too am "signing off".

Thanks again,

Mylo42

TheRealWulfmann
09-20-2005, 08:42 AM
I think Americans express more an individualistic view and also don't care for nationalism. While the media does not wish to portray this, it is easily seen in personal conversation.
Our Bill of Rights is the people's "just say no" to the government and we intend on keeping this power.
The problem in Canada is the erosion of personal rights at the benefit of tolerance for those that are degrading the quality of life for its citizens. Left unchecked that could lead to nationalism and intolerance.
The lie that you should trust your government is 6,000 years old. Guns don't kill people, governments with guns kill people.
Do the math.
If the UN and socialist have their way only governments and criminals will be armed and both have proven they mean no good will toward free independent people.

The Czechs make excellent firearms. I have had a number of CZ98 Mausers; CZ22 and VZ24s and have a CZ452V 22LR, very nice stuff.
The Czechs are the little known equals to the Germans in engineering.

Wulfmann

Kaleun1961
09-20-2005, 03:34 PM
Yeah, you got that right, Wulf. I'm not really a nationalist. It is one small planet, after all. I just see in the current trend of things the loss of cultural identity, to the detriment of all. This sentiment is what motivates distinct groups to seek their own little niche in the world. I mean, even Czechoslovakia did not remain as one country, but became Czech Republic and Slovakia. I'm sure if Czech Republic was being overwhelmed by waves of immigration from overseas, that Daldrum would be concerned. It is not necessarily bad to be concerned about such things.

Anyhow, as said, it's time to move on from this. Like Mylo, I have no particluar grudge, I just wish to have some small part of the world that I can call home, in which I may feel secure of my individual liberty and cultural identity, and for others to have the same.

Peace.

wnt2rd
09-23-2005, 10:50 PM
No one cares about the cookies?

THESE ARE COOKIES WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, PEOPLE!

jmuhlman
09-24-2005, 12:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mylo42:
joeap,
I don't like China towns....Russian towns....German towns.....whatever towns in Canada. The reason is, I don't like feeling like a foreigner in my own country. Mylo42 </div></BLOCKQUOTE> fair enough Mylo42, but do you speak French when you go to Quebec? cause after all, they were there before the english were. in fact, isn't the term "CANADA" originally a french term? why should they tolerate you speaking English in quebec city? not trying to flame here, just wondering what your logical answer to that would be.

TheRealWulfmann
09-24-2005, 08:39 AM
He makes a good point Mylo42. After all, this is North America. People should speak Spanish!!!!

Wulfmann

Kaleun1961
09-24-2005, 04:12 PM
Those would be the French whom the British magnanimously allowed to remain in Canada after they were defeated by the British at the Plains of Abraham. They were allowed to stay, rather than be deported, as was the norm in those days. Their language, religion and culture were also preserved. The fact that they are still here is a testament to their durability and English tolerance.

Just as there are English Canadians who do not speak French, so there are French Canadians who do not speak English. Away from the main thoroughfares you will find areas where very little English is spoken. In the main areas, there are enough bilingual Quebecois that an English speaker can get by.

It is not a matter of them tolerating us speaking English. Some are resentful and wish for their own state, but that is not likely going to happen. With each generation, unilingual Quebecois are diminishing. English is here to stay, no matter how the provincial and federal governments legislate bilingualism. French is becoming an ever diminsihing language in a sea of North American English [and Spanish] speakers. It is a cold hard fact of commerce that the average Quebecois is learning to accept.

As to how I feel as an individual, I do not speak French; but I do resent the waste of resources trying to enforce official bilingualism on the rest of the country. Nonetheless, Quebec is a founding part of Canada and a unique part of our history as a nation. I would hope they decided to remain Canadian, if it ever comes to another referendum.

jmuhlman
09-24-2005, 05:09 PM
I get your points Kaleun1961. I agree that the British crown cut the quebecois a pretty sweet deal after that there battle. Probably the reason, a few years later that they stuck with the british when the colonials took montreal and failed to take quebec city. I was just making the point that I think it is only fair that english and french both be spoken in canada, and you seem to agree with me. as to WULFMANN's remark that Spanish should be the language in North America, I'm not sure that he's kidding or not. I suspect he is. I think it's obvious to everyone that english is and will be the major language of north america and should be the only language of official use, but with the exceptions of the states of Florida, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California...areas that were parts of the spanish empire for several hundred years before they became part of the united states. hence, there are spanish speaking people there, before, during, and maybe even (the way the world is going) After being part of the United States. and people that live there had better get along with getting used to it. now, as far as Spanish stop signs in vermont, that's ridiculous to me. if you are spanish speaker and want to stay spanish speaker, it might be better to stick to one of the afore mentioned states, IMHO.

TheRealWulfmann
09-24-2005, 06:04 PM
There were no Spanish people in Florida. That came after Castro. So, if they move to Vermont you either agree to go Bilingual or agree it is wrong to expect it here.
You are suggesting a double standard. Not fair!

Yes I was kidding. That is a favorite joke I say when I hear people speaking another language other than English or Spanish and nearly everyone gets the joke!!

I don't mind people that have a Spanish restaurant or business putting up a sign. But, when people come here, any where, in the US, the language is English and I feel they should learn it.
I would not expect any nation to change to my language if I moved to their country, I would learn theirs.
Wulfmann