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GL2
12-02-2005, 04:13 AM
While we await a new moderator for this forum, now seems to be a good time for the community to hammer out in an open and respectful manner what the guidelines should be regarding the sort of feedback and comments we all make about the films others create. There are clearly mixed opinions on the subject, and it's obviously been a source of some contention, even if most of that has been under the surface and not voiced.

On the one hand, there are those filmmakers who are very interested in hearing up front from viewers what works in their films and what doesn't. They want frank and open feedback to ensure their films are having the intended effect. They are also looking for ways to improve their filmmaking skills and make their next projects even more effective and entertaining.

There's another group who is, no doubt, no less interested in improving their skills and creating entertaining films, but they are not necessarily interested in hearing every disagreement a viewer might have. They make films for the fun of it, and would rather know their work is enjoyed by those who watch it than hear every disagreement a viewer may have with it. They don't want their threads filled with unsolicited opinions and ideas about how their film could have been better. They probably already know a lot of the shortcomings and chose to accept them rather than spend even more time on a project that, at the end of the day, is just a hobby.

We can all agree that the environment in this forum needs to be open and inviting to people of either camp. As one of the people who has been most active in the "constructive criticism" circle, I think I speak for everyone in saying that comments of whatever nature need to be respectful towards the filmmaker who invested the time and effort to create a film he felt good enough about to post here. Nobody wants to be insulted or belittled, and there won't be any learning in an environment in which people feel disrespected.

I realize that the "critics" (constructive though they may have tried to be) have been having their way in this forum, and as one of the more prolific writers of those sorts of critiques, I think we should lay down some guidelines about when and how a person should offer criticism.

I think this can all be dealt with using one simple guideline: Filmmakers who want feedback should ask for it. If the filmmaker doesn't specifically say something along the lines of, "Any feedback/comments appreciated," then the rest of us should follow the adage: If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

Filmmakers who do solicit feedback should be prepared to hear ideas that may cross the line from established norm into the realm of personal preference. They shouldn't get upset that some people see their hard work in a difference light than they do. You can't argue with a person's impressions. You can't use debate to make a person decide he likes something he doesn't. So feel free to ask for feedback, but be prepared to hear less than favorable (though still respectful) comments, if you do.

Not to turn this into an advertisement for the Machinima Movie Theater Web site, but there is a forum there specifically dedicated to those who would like to talk at length about the finer points of filmmaking. It's a forum devoted to constructive criticism and helping filmmakers learn and improve. Wear your thick skin, but even there, you can count on being treated in a respectful manner.

I hope that any of the filmmakers who have been put off by unsolicited feedback in the past will give the rest of us in the community a second chance. I'm sure we all agree that the Movie Maker's Forum should be a place in which all filmmakers should feel welcome. The fact that some have said they've been driven off by the atmosphere in here means that something needs to change. I'll be the first to admit it needs to change with people like me. From now on, if a filmmaker would like my feedback, I'll be happy to give it to him. If not, I don't have any problem just giving him an attaboy and pointing out the positive things in his work (I hope we can still give positive feedback!). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Unlike some of the other forums, I have found the Movie Maker's Forum to be a consistently pleasant place to visit. But it should be that way for everyone who wishes to visit. Let's start over with a clean slate and make this forum a better place than it€s been.

GL2
12-02-2005, 04:13 AM
While we await a new moderator for this forum, now seems to be a good time for the community to hammer out in an open and respectful manner what the guidelines should be regarding the sort of feedback and comments we all make about the films others create. There are clearly mixed opinions on the subject, and it's obviously been a source of some contention, even if most of that has been under the surface and not voiced.

On the one hand, there are those filmmakers who are very interested in hearing up front from viewers what works in their films and what doesn't. They want frank and open feedback to ensure their films are having the intended effect. They are also looking for ways to improve their filmmaking skills and make their next projects even more effective and entertaining.

There's another group who is, no doubt, no less interested in improving their skills and creating entertaining films, but they are not necessarily interested in hearing every disagreement a viewer might have. They make films for the fun of it, and would rather know their work is enjoyed by those who watch it than hear every disagreement a viewer may have with it. They don't want their threads filled with unsolicited opinions and ideas about how their film could have been better. They probably already know a lot of the shortcomings and chose to accept them rather than spend even more time on a project that, at the end of the day, is just a hobby.

We can all agree that the environment in this forum needs to be open and inviting to people of either camp. As one of the people who has been most active in the "constructive criticism" circle, I think I speak for everyone in saying that comments of whatever nature need to be respectful towards the filmmaker who invested the time and effort to create a film he felt good enough about to post here. Nobody wants to be insulted or belittled, and there won't be any learning in an environment in which people feel disrespected.

I realize that the "critics" (constructive though they may have tried to be) have been having their way in this forum, and as one of the more prolific writers of those sorts of critiques, I think we should lay down some guidelines about when and how a person should offer criticism.

I think this can all be dealt with using one simple guideline: Filmmakers who want feedback should ask for it. If the filmmaker doesn't specifically say something along the lines of, "Any feedback/comments appreciated," then the rest of us should follow the adage: If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all.

Filmmakers who do solicit feedback should be prepared to hear ideas that may cross the line from established norm into the realm of personal preference. They shouldn't get upset that some people see their hard work in a difference light than they do. You can't argue with a person's impressions. You can't use debate to make a person decide he likes something he doesn't. So feel free to ask for feedback, but be prepared to hear less than favorable (though still respectful) comments, if you do.

Not to turn this into an advertisement for the Machinima Movie Theater Web site, but there is a forum there specifically dedicated to those who would like to talk at length about the finer points of filmmaking. It's a forum devoted to constructive criticism and helping filmmakers learn and improve. Wear your thick skin, but even there, you can count on being treated in a respectful manner.

I hope that any of the filmmakers who have been put off by unsolicited feedback in the past will give the rest of us in the community a second chance. I'm sure we all agree that the Movie Maker's Forum should be a place in which all filmmakers should feel welcome. The fact that some have said they've been driven off by the atmosphere in here means that something needs to change. I'll be the first to admit it needs to change with people like me. From now on, if a filmmaker would like my feedback, I'll be happy to give it to him. If not, I don't have any problem just giving him an attaboy and pointing out the positive things in his work (I hope we can still give positive feedback!). http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Unlike some of the other forums, I have found the Movie Maker's Forum to be a consistently pleasant place to visit. But it should be that way for everyone who wishes to visit. Let's start over with a clean slate and make this forum a better place than it€s been.

Monty-Dan
12-02-2005, 06:41 AM
Another good thread GL2 following on from BBloke€s earlier last week about the community in general. It€s a difficult subject this as it is so personal to the movie maker what is taken as a €œpositive critique€, a feedback of €œpersonal taste€ or simply €œI liked it or disliked it€ comment.

However, I think the onus is on the Movie Maker to state what he wants in terms of feedback as you have already pointed out, the movie maker should state if he wants feedback or not on the movie.

The other key factor I feel is that the movie maker should state what type of movie he has made before it€s downloaded and watched. This would then put the viewer in the correct frame of mind before watching.

For example the movie maker could state that the movie is one of the following types:

1. Historical Movie
2. Fictional Movie
3. Music Video
4. Just for Fun / Online Movie

I am sure that if the viewer knew it was a Music Video or a Historical Movie before watching they would post back comments based on that fact.

I say this from experience, for example POW is a fictional movie with a story, Come with Me was a Music Video, yet one post made against POW was as follows:

€œGood movie but does not compare with Come with Me€ - thats all it said

Of course you can€t compare the two movies as they are a million miles apart in their structure. If you are going to compare Come with me to other movies then compare it to other Music Videos, and likewise compare POW with the likes of Secret Weapons over Stalingrad or the last work done by the movie maker.

So, I feel that when any movie is released the movie maker should state the type of movie it is from the above list and then state if they actually want feedback or not.

My 2 pence worth over with http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards
Monty-Dan

STENKA_69.GIAP
12-03-2005, 04:15 PM
Hey - chill out,

Your post will have taken many hours of agonising about the context and the text, relax... anyone that posts a film does so to share... and must be ready for comment... the worst of all is to be ignored. If criticism is out of context that's for the other viewers to judge.

If you have a film stick it up.... and say why...and wherefore and if someone does'nt like it that's their problem

Relax

NTESLA
12-03-2005, 05:25 PM
Stenka,

What seems to be the problem here? Relax? They are giving good ideas, it seems that you are the person in need for some relaxation. We are trying to make something nice of this place but trying to shut people off is not the right way to start it out.

Nikolai

Tooz_69GIAP
12-03-2005, 06:20 PM
A very well thought out post GL2, and you certainly betray your talent for mediation with it. Here are my thoughts, for what they are worth, despite not having created anything of any substance for this community.

I understand the frustrations which come with criticism of something you have toiled over for hours, days, weeks, and which is very personal. I also see why many, in this specific context, have chosen to withdraw from the community here as a result of these criticisms.

However, I really must point out how unnecessary, and how precarious such politically correct attitudes such as those put forward here can be.

To look at this from a wider perspective, I have for most of my life always been opposed to walking on eggshells, and pussyfooting around, just in case I "say the wrong thing". As a child, I wasn't aware of it until I got a slap from my mother, but later in life, I realised what I was doing and thinking. And I feel it to be the better way in most situations.

No matter what form of procedure is presented and adopted, in any forum, virtual or otherwise, you will never have full compliance, or full agreement that it is the correct way of things. Also, you will never hear the full and honest opinion held by anyone in regard to what is being shown because of that procedure.

Of course, we are forced many times to conform and behave in a specific way in many situations in life, in our jobs, in our family life, and so on, where the wrong thing said to the wrong person at the wrong time can have consequences which we do not wish to encounter. But there are times when that "wrong thing" needs to be said for the greater benefit, rather than have it suppressed to prevent causing offence.

But back to the specific subject here: that of the "critiquing of IL-2 movie productions". I feel that the philosophy of keeping silent if you have nothing "nice" to say is invalid in essence. If you toil to create something, but then display it for all to see, it is inevitable that there will be a negative comment produced about that something, whether it is a valid negative or not.

It is my opinion that if you are not prepared to accept this fact, then you should refrain from revealing your works to a general public mass so that you will avoid insult.

But then on the flip side of the coin, those whom voice their opinion could, at the very least, consider how they choose to phrase their comments rather than simply saying: "that was bollocks", or something similar.

However, I must point out that if someone is not able to separate those inane, and brutally succinct statements which are, at times, presented from those which have some thought and some constructive comments, then perhaps again, you should not present your works to a general audience.

To those who have been affected by €œunjustified criticism€ (or rather, those who could not sort the wheat from the chaff), how can anyone who endeavours to create anything - be it a film, a story, a painting, or an aircraft engine - hope to improve their craft without knowing where the faults lie so they might be rectified, and what the strengths are so they can be developed and improved? It is criticism which informs the creator where these things lie in their creations, good or bad.

Surely you cannot argue that?

In conclusion, I believe simply that it is a case of pride winning out over common sense. Being proud of what you have achieved is a good thing, but allowing your pride to cloud your intelligence to the point where you cannot accept anything but praise €" I say that is folly. It is my opinion that guidelines for posting are not required; only that people need to grow a thicker skin.

That€s my tuppence, take it as you want it, but to paraphrase my idol, Clint Eastwood:

€œOpinions are like arseholes €" everybody€s got one!€

Tooz_69GIAP
12-03-2005, 06:36 PM
Ntesla, I don't believe Stenka is trying to belittle the effort here, but is simply saying that so much effort, as GL2 has put in with his post, is perhaps not as necessary as is perceived.

There certainly are some good points, and they probably should be addressed, noone is denying that, but GL2 does like to be exact when posting as he has demonstrated many times! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

GL2
12-04-2005, 11:20 AM
This thread grew out of a topic raised in another thread BBloke started. In that thread, there were several veteran filmmakers who said they had been turned off on making films due to the number of critics in the forums. Those who know me know I support giving constructive feedback, but it's clear not all filmmakers want that. I was trying to help find a way we can all peacefully coexist in here.

Tooz_69GIAP
12-04-2005, 11:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GL2:
This thread grew out of a topic raised in another thread BBloke started. In that thread, there were several veteran filmmakers who said they had been turned off on making films due to the number of critics in the forums. Those who know me know I support giving constructive feedback, but it's clear not all filmmakers want that. I was trying to help find a way we can all peacefully coexist in here. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand that and I responded with my opinion. I'd like to hear other opinions on the subject.

GL2
12-04-2005, 12:00 PM
I would also like all of the filmmakers to weigh in on this discussion, especially guys like JRJacobs, Davinci and UCLANUPE. They were the ones who helped spark this discussion. If they would be interested in returning to filmmaking in a changed forum, this is the time to speak up.

Joe-90
12-05-2005, 04:30 AM
I like the idea of giving comments and critiques but only when asked for.

If someone shares a movie with us and only says 'hope you enjoy' or similar words, then I will watch and if I enjoy I'll tell him or her.

If I don't enjoy, then I will say nothing, unless there is something supportive I can say.

It would be good to have 'rules about posting' because that makes the job easy for the moderator when someone breaks the rules.

Scragbat
12-05-2005, 05:03 PM
With no Sheriff in town this place sure is getting a bit on the jumpy side LOL http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I for one am now prepared for anything people say about my movies. In the past I was greatly affected by the negative comments. Having spent so many hours producing something that I was personally very pleased with, I assumed that the viewing public would be also. You lap the good comments up, but a bad comment can destroy you.

I have since grown up. I look at producing these movies as personal achievment. I simply try to make something better than my last. I think I know myself whether or not I have achieved that goal.

When I release my next movie (date unknown), let the public speak!

NNFFL-HePCaT-
12-05-2005, 05:09 PM
Hello all, i just start to make a new movie (the second one) and i got a problem, cos if my first (Turtle Island)i can say it´s a music vidéo for my second i really don´t know http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif !
So do you have something between fictional and music vidéo...For the comments i really prefer bad reviews than nothing cos it means people saw it.
Ps: sorry for my english i´m to bad lol

310th Falcon
12-05-2005, 05:53 PM
S!

There is a New Sheriff in Town... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


His name is <span class="ev_code_YELLOW">Tooz</span>.....http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:v61RDMF0-Z8J:www.fian.com/artwork/sillyspots/sheriff.jpg


Best Regards

Scragbat
12-05-2005, 06:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 310th Falcon:
There is a New Sheriff in Town... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

His name is Tooz... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sheriff Tooz, sounds good to me http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hey Sheriff, we gots us some trouble here http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BBloke
12-06-2005, 01:41 AM
Oh wow... and I thought my thread would start something. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">guys, lets keep it civil, eh? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Keep it going guys. I'm hooked http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Stenka and Ntesla, that's enough thank you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Awwwwwww... big cheif has spoken http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I would like to say that there has been some good ideas posted here abouting posting here!

I think Monty's idea has some credit. Categorising a movie would at least give the viewer a starting point on what to expect and make posting against it easier.

S!

Monty-Dan
12-06-2005, 02:23 AM
HepCat:

When you post the movie just say what you have already stated, "this movie is somewhere between a fictional movie and a music video"



Quote Scragbat:
"I look at producing these movies as personal achievment. I simply try to make something better than my last. I think I know myself whether or not I have achieved that goal."

Could not have said it better myself

STENKA_69.GIAP
12-06-2005, 06:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tooz_69GIAP:
Stenka and Ntesla, that's enough thank you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aw Tooz... yr no fun I hadn't hooked such a big one in ages... can't I keep him? I'll buy the tank with my pocket money...

OK OK I'll do my pennance - I promised I'd do one serious post (rather than writing "Anarchy doesn't rule" 500 times on the blackboard)

Posting guidelines - by Stenka Razin

Guidelines must be short and practical otherwise the average gaming board reader won't bother.

Something like.

When posting a film

1/ Give a short introduction, stating content, objectives and type (eg. music/action/epic...)
2/ Set your link to a .zip or .rar file - streaming video is not appreciated.
3/ Test link
4/ If any codecs are used state which ones
5/ Be prepared for criticism, but if it's unwarranted or unconstructive - Ignore it.
6/ Above all have fun and share stuff.

When posting about a Film

1/ If you can't say at least one positive thing about the film - why post at all?
2/ If criticising the end result of someones 100+ hours of work, think about it - Is it style, technique, content or merely a matter of taste? - and make that clear in your post.
3/ If the Film's by Stenka Razin, criticise loads - as each post bumps it towards the top of the page.
4/ Have fun and relax it's only a game

End of guidelines

Right - that's already too long - I'm bored already - and no-one reads them - and even if they arn't followed you can't enforce them without destroying all the liberties we fight to protect.

Good, now while the guy with the tartan skirt and cowboy boots isn't watching maby I can find me another alien....

BBloke
12-06-2005, 09:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">1/ If you can't say at least one positive thing about the film - why post at all? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I read as far as this one, spat my coffee all over my screen and will send you the bill for a replacement!!!!

I think anyone would completely ignore any replies consisting of one sentence that only contains words of two syllables or less. Although I have yet to see any post that hasn't contained at least one positive comment.

I've now come to the conclusion that this thread will draw no statisfying end result although I'm left with a thought that in light of what you movie makers do there will never be a common ground regarding replies to movie posts.

Maybe all we are missing is that hopefully inside any small or large critiscism there is a fantastic idea that someone will grab a hold of and make another movie.

If we never make comment then will the bar ever be raised, even so slightly, for the good of all who make and appreciate movies.

Don't know why but I keep have flash backs of Film 2005 and how both presenters had there own style of criticism but still had a great journalist ability to portray there thoughts to the viewer however good or the bad the film was. Personnel taste will always be subjective and speech is still free.... ....long live the people!! Oops wrong board!!

I for one will not be silence.. well not for long anyway.

Touchwood
12-06-2005, 02:07 PM
I'm not sure where I stand on this topic..
Each movie maker has his own vision of what he wants his audience to feel. I for one enjoy both the frivolous (i.e the messenger) to the serious topics, such as I promise etc.
Each movie maker has his own 'vision' and each has an impact. Personally, I miss the fun stuff that used to come out of here, everyone wants to do the historical, absolute kind of stuff. Films now don't seem to fun anymore....
If you want the critique fine, if it's positive like GL2's stuff usually is, it can make you a better movie producer, but sometimes we just need to pu put the Fun back in to the game. like funacandemy. A total hoot.
Sorry about this everyone but I have had a couple of sherberts....

Monty-Dan
12-06-2005, 03:15 PM
Some good points Touchwood.

Dart seemed to be one of the best at the fun movies but he has been tied up on the community movie. So when thats finished lets hope he makes some more