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Spekkio9
06-04-2005, 02:05 PM

ImportedSpy.CF
06-04-2005, 02:17 PM
I posted yes, but it would have to have a diff name like Missile Strike 2 or sumthing cuz i dun wanna be like playing with the few that dled it and never be able to play with the whole other lot that didnt dl it cuz it overwrote my original..

psyichic
06-04-2005, 02:29 PM
MMM that is a good idea. Also alter sector one so that the mercs cant just shoot out the bombs from the catwalk. Otherwise bombing is pretty much a no go and trying to get into the hacking OBJ is suicidal.

weezer0w0
06-04-2005, 02:50 PM
Also alter sector one so that the mercs cant just shoot out the bombs from the catwalk. Otherwise bombing is pretty much a no go and trying to get into the hacking OBJ is suicidal.

you see that there is exactly why people shouldn't really tamper with the ubi made maps that are released for ct. you make one change, who's to say that you shouldn't make more and just unbalance it. merc's being able to shoot out the bomb from the top isn't unbalancing, sector 1 is possible to break.

sector 2 is debatable, especially on the point of whether or not adding a single drop off poin downstairs will change anything. but i still don't think the players should edit this map and make a usermade version for the same rationale as why the UMP got started. it would just be a hassle and a pain to have two (or more) versions of the same map especially when one was actually created by the company who made the game to begin with.
-g

JaguarCAT.
06-04-2005, 03:13 PM
i posted yes bc merc always always well the ones i played camp down in the drop off and it annoys me. so i do agree with u spek.

BooBerry.Ck
06-04-2005, 03:19 PM
If the decision turns out to be YES, i'll be happy to do it. If you guys agree.

Oh and I vote Yep

Spekkio9
06-04-2005, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by JaguarCAT.:
i posted yes bc merc always always well the ones i played camp down in the drop off and it annoys me. so i do agree with u spek.

It's tinweasele's idea. I only agree with it because it's as simple as a change as you can make. It won't vastly change the gameplay at any level, really.

I know the whole argument that it can open up a whole can of worms, so to speak, but if that were going to happen, don't you think someone would've already done it?

Most of the mappers are respectable members of the community and won't make changes to them on a whim unless the vast majority of the community wants it.

We all know that Missile sector 2 is unbalanced. It's impossible...yes IMPOSSIBLE to win against a team of two good mercs with skill. You HAVE to get lucky...like, one merc has a brainfart and kills both of the mercs at the same time lucky. And even then it's hard.

Currently, this is how it goes:

There are two dropoff points downstairs. Coincidentally, there are two mercs. The mercs are close enough to each other where they can easily pick up each other's slack. Plus, you will often find a ton of mines down there near both objectives. So not only do you have to neutralize one of the mercs, you have to do so and then remove all of his traps in the way. This is pretty much impossible since the other merc will just come to kill you swiftly.

With a third dropoff point, yes there will be mines, yes it will still be hard...but at least the mercs will have to split there attention a bit more. They won't just be able to camp in two spots underneath the catwalks. If you get one merc down, now he has to guard 3 objectives, not two. Also, there will be an opportunity to sneak by and remove traps since the mercs will most likely be using a moving patrol rather than just camping the dropoff spots.

dmb1435
06-04-2005, 03:56 PM
Well, it's a good theory, but I don't see how adding a drop in the same big room will really help? Maybe have one of the disks a 20 secong hack instead? then at least one merc has to stay up top. I dunno, I still voted yes because it'll be better done than not:/

psyichic
06-04-2005, 04:02 PM
I never found sector 2 to be particularly unbalanced. It seemed like a smoke nade was enough to normally cover up a drop off. But ehhh what do I know.

Spekkio9
06-04-2005, 04:03 PM
Do you play with people who use a gasmask?

weezer0w0
06-04-2005, 04:47 PM
i do agree that sector 2 of missile is particularly hard compared to other areas of others maps. however i disagree that the drop off points are the problem. the problem is where the disks are. all the disks are in the same location and it can much more easily be camped by mercs more effectively than camping the drop off. if two mercs are able to set up in the rooms where the disks are before the spies get in there you can kiss the map goodbye.

i have never seen a missile round won by spies when the mercs were camping the upper rooms. adding a single drop off point in the same room where there other drop off points are doesn't even begin to touch on the problems of sect 2 missile.

thus i voted no on the changes because i dont see those changes as being useful. i do think that the map should be remedied by ubi however.
-g

S.a.S-Mosar
06-04-2005, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by Spekkio9:

We all know that Missile sector 2 is unbalanced. It's impossible...yes IMPOSSIBLE to win against a team of two good mercs with skill. You HAVE to get lucky...like, one merc has a brainfart and kills both of the mercs at the same time lucky. And even then it's hard.

I agree totally, but whats even worse...


Originally posted by weezer0w0:
i do agree that sector 2 of missile is particularly hard compared to other areas of others maps. however i disagree that the drop off points is the problem. the problem is where the disks are.

Me and my mate have played against a team that uses such a tactic, and those have been insanely frustrating situations. Especially when they both have back packs for huge mine/nade storage and gasmasks against cams. I don't carry any nades and my buddy has only chaffs. Theres not much to be done.

redskirts
06-04-2005, 05:11 PM
well if you put a third drop point either

1. where the generator is, that will allow the mercs to seperate and will help the spy

2. My suggestion is to put a point up on the platform above the other two drop off points. That will split the mercs into levels and if you actually cam one you have a chance.

3. With mine placement, usually even with a backpack it would only take one trip down to take out most of the mines, and they could not all be covered again.

I like the idea, sick of mercs with MT sitting under the ledge just waiting for their littls motion to activate and spot you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/cry.gif

CovertKi11
06-04-2005, 05:46 PM
I hardly play missle strike anymore, making it possible would be kickass. I voted yes

weezer0w0
06-04-2005, 06:08 PM
no amount of new drop offs no matter where they are will really remedy the problem of the choke point that is sector 2. the disks are all so close together that 2 mercs camping the disks making sure that the spies die right away will be successfull.
-g

Total.Ck_
06-04-2005, 06:20 PM
Well, it seems that the main problem is that objectives can't be hit when there are two mercs guarding. The solution would be to force the mercs to cover both top and bottom. This could be done if there were say, two hard drives and one drop off point per floor. This would mean that the spy would either have to get the hd at the top and drop off at the bottom or vise versa. Then the drop off points can be easily guarded however. I don;t think there really is anything that can be done that would make it worthwhile to make the level and then make sure that most of the community has it. This means that we either have to wait for ubi to fix it (fat chance) or just deal with it.

TunaAGENT
06-04-2005, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by weezer0w0:
no amount of new drop offs no matter where they are will really remedy the problem of the choke point that is sector 2. the disks are all so close together that 2 mercs camping the disks making sure that the spies die right away will be successfull.
-g

Yep totally agree. This is the problem with Missile Strike: The disc area needs to be re-worked entirely IMO. I'm actually surprised nobody mentioned the difficulty of sector 3 if both mercs are camping in there.

X-fire: TunaAGENT

weezer0w0
06-04-2005, 06:53 PM
I'm actually surprised nobody mentioned the difficulty of sector 3 if both mercs are camping in there.

I think its mainly because most people (good teams included) can't get past sector 2 vs other good teams. Sec 3 is pretty bad, but not as bad. It gets worse the more equipment the mercs get thats for sure.


I don;t think there really is anything that can be done that would make it worthwhile to make the level and then make sure that most of the community has it. This means that we either have to wait for ubi to fix it (fat chance) or just deal with it.

Well said, couldn't agree more.
-g

Havoconline
06-04-2005, 07:07 PM
ppl just need to rethink tactics and play it more. When I find a map that's hard, it makes me want to play it more. Don't work AROUND the problem, work THROUGH the problem.

RaisinBran.Ck
06-04-2005, 07:29 PM
Yeppers.

XHarry_TuttleX
06-05-2005, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by Havoconline:
ppl just need to rethink tactics and play it more. When I find a map that's hard, it makes me want to play it more. Don't work AROUND the problem, work THROUGH the problem.

I totally agree.

Cheet4hC.A.T.
06-05-2005, 08:33 AM
does that mean 3 hacks in sector 3? pffffffffffft yeah right

timmieboy2
06-05-2005, 08:41 AM
i think missile is the map with the most fun, spies can be agro with succes, when me and my teammate have many lives we do a dm in area 3, area 3 isnt hard when you shock the merc and quickly hack the laptop, it even get's easier when the missile is about to leave

Cheet4hC.A.T.
06-05-2005, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by timmieboy2:
i think missile is the map with the most fun, spies can be agro with succes, when me and my teammate have many lives we do a dm in area 3, area 3 isnt hard when you shock the merc and quickly hack the laptop, it even get's easier when the missile is about to leave

easier when the missile is about to leave? how so?

timmieboy2
06-05-2005, 08:51 AM
with all the fire and smoke on the first floor, btw area 1 can also be very hard if you have a team and the mercs are first at the bomb

hurricane12222
06-05-2005, 08:56 AM
Steam and smoke comes out near the 1st floor.It is like smokegrenade smoke but doesnt knock out mercs.

Cheet4hC.A.T.
06-05-2005, 08:57 AM
really? i didnt know that! thanks for the info

Spekkio9
06-05-2005, 01:01 PM
Yeah, sector 3 isn't that hard, really.

It may seem so cuz the mercs are in one tight room, but let me elaborate:

If the mercs take the upper ground (3rd floor), an elbow to knock them off will kill them.

If they take the low ground, both spies can cause havoc and/or jump on the mercs.

The hacks are only 3 seconds. A ss takes 4 to wear off, so sometimes only a shock is necessary to get the terminals.

You pretty much can't place any traps on the nds, only way out in the open where they are as dangerous to the mercs as they are to the spies.

And as someone mentioned, environmental effects that prohibit vision.

I love sector 3 in missile, it's just too bad we never get up to it.

krazoa
06-05-2005, 06:24 PM
I voted no... because tampering with the map will end in a bad way - one way or another! The map's fine as it is, even though section 2 is a pain in the *** to get through. But also, the game's not designed to hand over the objectives on a plate to spies.

Better leave it as it is.

weezer0w0
06-06-2005, 12:05 AM
The hacks are only 3 seconds. A ss takes 4 to wear off, so sometimes only a shock is necessary to get the terminals.

i have tried this many times and find that i always get shot off of the ND.


You pretty much can't place any traps on the nds, only way out in the open where they are as dangerous to the mercs as they are to the spies.

i find it very easy to trap up with a combination of spy traps and poison mines, all you gotta do is prox mine the health and sec 3 becomes a living hell very quickly for the spies, especially when the mercs are alert. and as far as aggroing your way through sec 3 (knocking off the merc from the top level or whatnot) that only works against really careless mercs.

i find that both sec 2 and 3 are best dealt with in the same way by spies, get there before the mercs do. missile is a speed map, a spy has the easiest time when they don't let the merc set up shop. but then, thats why its so hard against good merc teams.
-g

Spekkio9
06-06-2005, 12:37 AM
Some numbers to back up claims (via Tinweasele's handy-dandy stats tracker):

Spy wins/losses and Merc wins/losses by map:

FACTORY: Spy: 47-20 Merc: 56-4
ORPHANAGE: Spy: 33-18 Merc: 35-8
AQUARIUS: Spy: 34-32 Merc: 52-3
MISSILE STRIKE: Spy: 20-22 Merc: 32-5
STATION: Spy: 23-20 Merc: 35-5
CLUB HOUSE: Spy: 16-17 Merc: 31-2
MUSEUM: Spy: 4-10 Merc: 10-3
WAREHOUSE: Spy: 5-2 Merc: 7-0
DEFTECH BELEW: Spy: 2-3 Merc: 3-0
RIVER MALL: Spy: 5-8 Merc: 13-1
BANK: Spy: 5-1 Merc: 5-1
-----------------------------------------------

Some maps don't have enough games on it to consider the data useful. For example, if I were to play Warehouse on a consistent basis, I certainly would not expect my spy win% to be the same as the 5-2 record suggests.

Also, keep in mind that this data cannot be separated by whether or not I play a good team. This comes against both n00bs and 1337 teams alike.

Anyway, the numbers here say a few things:

<span class="ev_code_PURPLE">
1) I'm a better merc than spy. Which I am.

2) Despite this, the game is still unbalanced towards the mercs in general (Sorry, Braiog). I didn't tally it here, but Remm and I's merc win/loss is something like 229-26 whereas our spy record is 162-117. Remember, these games come against both the good teams and the bad. Basically, we hover around 55-60% win % as spy and around 90% for merc.

3) The most spy-friendly maps, at least for us, are Factory and Orphanage.

4) Missile Strike is clearly the map with our worst spy record. I'm honestly surprised to see it was as high as it is, and that must mean we've played quite a few n00bs on that map because I honestly can't remember ever beating a good team on that map. Like I said, despite this, we STILL have a losing record on that map.

5) An argument could be made to Club House, but the deal with that is we don't play it as often, and more people are very knowledgable how to cover it as merc since we had a beta for 2 months with only 2 maps out. I think if we played it more often we'd have a better record on it.

6) Another thing I will point out is that despite its popularity, Aquarius is definitely a merc-sided map. The spies are extremely constricted in their movements and the mercs don't have a lot of ground to cover.</span>

I think there are a couple of things the developers could have/can do to fix the disparity that I believe most players will find between their spy and merc winning %'s.

<span class="ev_code_GREEN">
1) Fix certain structural elements of maps that make them unbalanced. Sector 2 in Missile, for example, or Sector 2 in Station if you get the bomb obj. In the latter scenario, the crawl spaces under the floor prevent the spies from drawing their weapons. The mercs can easily camp the vents along with mines and traps and snipe all doorway hacks.

2) Fix the over-powered MT. Make the detection radius only in front of the merc, not behind, and make stationary spies appear transparent instead of black on red background.

3) LESS passive defenses throughout maps. I'll use Mount Hospital here: the fact that they have 3 lasers and then motion sensors in the rooms is redundant. Pair that with a ton of traps and mines the spies have to navigate through and it just becomes **** hard. Some motion sensors are just dumb, like the one in room 100 that has no obj (and I still have no idea why the UMP left it there. It's especially conspicuous now because you wouldn't ordinarily shoot out the defenses for room 102, so it pinpoints you.). There are lasers in front of the doors, that's enough warning for the mercs if they know the map. Another map like this is Deftech Belew, where you cannot reach any objective without shooting a minimum of 2 passive defenses, in most cases 3+. Hacking a door open results in a message that might as well be a spy trap. And I just found out today that if you plant the bomb in C, it TELLS YOU WHERE THE BOMB IS. There are 4 possible places to put it, and the message says something like "bomb placed at C-3." This is unnecessary.</span>

I encourage others to run their stats and compare. The tracker, along with install instructions, can be found at http://ckclan.obscureserenity.com.

weezer0w0
06-06-2005, 02:37 AM
whoa, that was a lot of info. most of your claims i agree with. none of it really touched on the basic point that adding 1 extra drop off doesn't help silo that i, and a few others made.

i do think that certain aspects of certain maps (sec 2 station if you bomb car park, and sec 2 even 3 of silo could be reworked) but i think it should be up to ubi.
-g

Spekkio9
06-06-2005, 07:59 AM
Well, Ubi isn't going to make these changes. Over the course of 3 patches, the number one gameplay change we wanted was fixing MT, and it hasn't been touched. It took till the third patch to get any SvM changes at all, really, and they were minor. There are still plenty of minor bugs they could've fixed as well. Let's face it though: this isn't Counter-Strike with a huge community that warrants constant tweaking to make the game better and better. Ubi has released this game, it's time for them to move on, so long as there are no major issues prohibiting people from playing SvM, and there aren't.

Anyway, back to my point. Since Ubi isn't going to alter the maps, I figured it would be cool if a community member could do it. Yes not everyone will have it, but if Remm and I are playing you two or two .ck or C.A.T. people, they're likely to have it, and then we'd have better games on a more balanced map.

P.S. I also think you're right about the top part. The kicker is that the mercs only have to watch 3/4 of those disks, because one of the rooms only has entrances from the front walkway or one of the side rooms, which you can only get to from one of the other 3 that you are watching.

LuckyCharms.CK
06-06-2005, 08:22 AM
btw spek your missle data may be a little scewed from playing it against people BEFORE people figured out how to defend it perfectly.

Spekkio9
06-06-2005, 08:23 AM
Same could be said for Station. We'd win that map often until Apple and Coco showed us the dark side of that map.

I also think one camera in Factory has to be fixed: the one by the main hall coop. It's the only one in the whole map that you can't get by without shooting out = automatic pinpoint. Plus, the spies have to climb like 50 feet anyway after they coop. It makes more sense to have to shoot the camera by digger where you're just up there and good to go. But I digress. I'd move it so that one of the 3 places you can coop in main hall won't set it off without shooting it.

weezer0w0
06-06-2005, 02:23 PM
Anyway, back to my point. Since Ubi isn't going to alter the maps, I figured it would be cool if a community member could do it. Yes not everyone will have it, but if Remm and I are playing you two or two .ck or C.A.T. people, they're likely to have it, and then we'd have better games on a more balanced map

well there is the problem. there are enough people in the community that agreeing on what would be a proper fix for the map and still trying to retain enough balance in the map would be pretty hard. for example the new versions of hospital and vertigo that the UMP folks put out. some of the changes are good, most IMO are pretty bad. (still downloaded it because its better than nothing) but then there already is a version of missile strike in CT...good or not..

as for my own personal take on how missile sec 2 could be changed for the better:

the locations of the disks and the dropoffs would have be reversed, the disks should be in the big open area where its easier to manuver and the dropoffs should be in the more confined spaces. of course this is only the first of the most basic changes.

then there would need to be stealth routes that go from the sec 1 vents directly down to the bottom portion of sec 2. as it is currently the spies MUST go through the top portion of sec 2 to even get to the bottom portion which is one of the things that makes stealthing into the top portion to get the disks so hard. this would allow spies enough routes to get down so the mercs couldn't guard everything with just mines and traps.

then i might make the rooms where the disks currently are (the ones i'm suggesting to turn into dropoffs) a little harder for the mercs to navigate, such that not every single room is accessible from the main corridor that runs down the middle.

another change i'd suggest is to make the spies spawn inside of a vent (one that can't be guarded so easily by a merc) when they break sec 3, instead of spawning right out in the open like they currently do.

those changes, however, would require a lot more testing/balancing/agreeing upon by the community than just adding one dropoff that the mercs still wouldnt have to guard (because they could just stay up top where the disks are). just some ideas i had feel free to tear them apart.
-g

Spekkio9
06-06-2005, 03:53 PM
I agree that it would be hard to get everyone to come to terms with what could be fair, and it would require some testing. Nevertheless, Ubi isn't going to do this for us, unfortunately. Small things that you come across from time to time that can be tweaked are never going to be. IF they even get around to anything, it will be by the time SC4 is out.

I will agree with you that the UMP maps are so-so so far. I didn't like Hospital really, and Vertigo seems pretty good but I've only played it like twice. There are some aspects of both maps that I was surprised to see kept in or implemented (room 100 motion sensor in Hospital, or the two way door hacks to get the disk, for example), but whatever.

weezer0w0
06-06-2005, 06:56 PM
as if hacking to get a disk isnt bad enough you have to hack both IN and OUT. and then you still have to wait around for the generator to be bombed. i never really fully understood UBI they introduced the idea of hacking your way into a disk/extraction objective. talk about redundancy.

on the notion of having motion detectors and lasers..originally i read your post while they were still porting the maps and i agreed with you. but after playing hospital i come to realize the importance of the motion detectors near the NDs, at least on hospital (the lab motion sensors could be ****ed to heck for all i care.) especially since some of the rooms have lasers that don't turn off the NDs. and as far as the rm 100 motion detector i think thats fair, seeing as if that wasnt there it would be far too easy to get the 102 objective.

anyhow, in the effort of keeping this thread about how missile could feasable be improved lets leave the UMP map bashing (sry guys) to another thread. along side the idea of balance and compromise that would take a long time for the community to seriously fix an ubi map is the idea that any mapper willing to undergo this project (and i'm pretty sure it'll be bigger than simply adding 1 extra disk dropoff) could probably better spend their time making a custom made map with plenty of balance to spare, as long as their willing to involve the whole community and whatnot.
-g

James_Westfall
06-07-2005, 01:22 AM
i voted yes....there are ways for mercs to either stay up top and put all their mines there or camp the bottom..and its virtually impossible to get any of the drop offs once u magically get a disk...i think if there was a seperate hack somewhere it would work well...such as in the first sector..u have east west and then the hack through the ventalation shaft...im not saying really another room...but possibly another hack...having another disk dropoff in the same room near the generator would still be virtually impossible...i think another hack would keep the mercs from actually camping and allow for better team work in the spy area

Spekkio9
06-07-2005, 07:30 AM
Originally posted by weezer0w0:
especially since some of the rooms have lasers that don't turn off the NDs.
-g

Just had a quick run through of the map. All the lasers, when tripped locked the objectives. I think you're referring to the motion sensors that don't lock the objectives?

weezer0w0
06-07-2005, 02:57 PM
Hmm, well I didn't run through to check myself. But when I played the map a few days ago a spy tripped the lasers in 205, so I figured I had a few more seconds to get there before they started hacking it, then instantly they were already hacking the ND. Could have been some kind of bug, I have seen spies run through lasers and sometimes it wont say anything, sometimes it will flash with no sound, and sometimes vice versa. Who knows, but that particular round it happened twice once in 205 and once in 202.

At any rate I would like to hear some of your more elaborate ideas on how missile sec 2 could be fixed, Spekkio.
-g