Allies or Axis [Archive] - Ubisoft Forums

klcarroll

08-25-2009, 10:24 AM

I’ve said it before in other threads, …..And I guess I’ll repeat it again here:

IT’S A GAME!!!, …….Nothing more – nothing less! ......And anyone who really believes that they have to “Buy Into” the 70 year old politics, philosophies, and practices of one side or the other in order to play a submarine simulation is putting FAR too much into it.

Playing a simulation from the point of view of the Axis will no more make you an “Anti-Semitic Baby Killer” than playing “for the Allies” will make you a “Blessed Savior of Civilization”!

(…Does playing “Black” in a chess game make you a “Bad Guy”????)

The games in question are simply good simulations: …..Enjoy them for what they are, and forget about the politics!!

klcarroll

optiontrader

08-26-2009, 10:00 AM

If you live outside Germany and aren't speaking German, the "politics of 70 years ago" matter quite a lot. For if the good guys didn't win you would most certainly be speaking German or Japanese.

klcarroll

08-26-2009, 12:15 PM

If you live outside Germany and aren't speaking German, the "politics of 70 years ago" matter quite a lot. For if the good guys didn't win you would most certainly be speaking German or Japanese.

In a historical sense that may be true: (Although I'm not sure why you exclude the German people from your generalization.) .....But NOTHING you do in 2009 while playing a $29.00 computer game is going to alter those events one iota!

IT'S ONLY A GAME! .....As I asked before: "Does playing "Black" in a Chess game make you a "Bad Guy"???" (Think about that question for a while: ....As it addresses the core of the issue!)

If you are attaching moral values to which side you play in a computer game, .....then you are reading FAR too much into it! It's time to turn off the computer and go fishing!

klcarroll

andy3536

08-26-2009, 01:29 PM

Originally posted by optiontrader:
If you live outside Germany and aren't speaking German, the "politics of 70 years ago" matter quite a lot. For if the good guys didn't win you would most certainly be speaking German or Japanese.

You should be ashamed of your school system, speaking German or Japanese? Hitlers invasion of Russia meant he could never win. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

With Klcarroll on this, being British i actually prefer to be the U-boats sinking allied ships than being the US fleet boats from SH 1 & 4. Mostly down to the fact that it's all familiar to me.
I have no hangups about destroying allied ships in a game, and i'm not a bad person.........

klcarroll

08-26-2009, 02:28 PM

Hitlers invasion of Russia meant he could never win.

Quite true!

.....And, of course, the reality of the U.S. position was that we were quite safe from an actual invasion of the Continental U.S.

With their inability to dominate the oceans in the way that Britain did from 1700 to 1900, the Axis simply could not have transported the necessary troops and war materials to U.S. soil. (Even if they had them to spare; ….Which they didn’t!!)

All they could really do was exactly what they did! ....."Chew" on remote U.S. assets, and try to interdict our shipping going to our Allies.

The only thing that would have altered that picture would have been Nuclear Weapons: ...and their own screwed-up internal policies put them in second place in THAT race!

klcarroll

Ducimus_Rapax

08-26-2009, 05:03 PM

It's been my thought for some time that generally speaking, preference of theater (or allies and axis as it pertains to sub sims, as axis usually defaults to uboats, and allies typically defaults to fleet boats) has a lot to do with proximity to ones location, relevance to ones home country history, and books, novels, or movies one may have read or viewed.

Anything dealing with the pacific war must be a hard sell in Europe and the UK. It's half a world away, and historically speaking, nobody's had any signficant involvement or no involvement at all. So interest in the PTO must be next to nill.

Besides that, the PTO has something in common with the Korean War, it is, for the most part, "The forgotten war". The European theater recieves most of the attention from documentaries, to book writers, to hollywood film makers. Small wonder the PTO generates little interest from game makers. It's something of a pity considering some of the things that occured in the PTO dwarf occurances in Europe such as much "publicized" D day landings.

Maverick_U2007

08-27-2009, 10:32 AM

Originally posted by optiontrader:
If you live outside Germany and aren't speaking German, the "politics of 70 years ago" matter quite a lot. For if the good guys didn't win you would most certainly be speaking German or Japanese.

I am not going to get into Politics with you here because this is not the time or the place. I am English but I will also respect the fact that a lot of 'other good guys' actually didn't win because they were on the Axis side.

Please Do NOT bundle everyone into one group and mix them up with some 'very crazy people'.

Have you ever watched the film 'Memphisbelle'...the closing captions pay tribute to ALL the airman of whatever side they fought for...they were ALL brave souls.

Silenthunter is a game, treat it as such!!!!!

Maverick

JBG84

08-27-2009, 08:54 PM

Originally posted by Ducimus_Rapax:

Anything dealing with the pacific war must be a hard sell in Europe and the UK. It's half a world away, and historically speaking, nobody's had any signficant involvement or no involvement at all. So interest in the PTO must be next to nill

This point is only relevant if Ubisoft solely market the SH game series to Europe. Otherwise..... you forgot about the other 5,500,000,000 potential customers?

klcarroll

08-27-2009, 09:20 PM

This point is only relevant if Ubisoft solely market the SH game series to Europe. Otherwise..... you forgot about the other 5,500,000,000 potential customers?

I rather imagine that UBISOFT already has a pretty good idea of what kind of sales numbers their various marketing areas generate.

klcarroll

Ducimus_Rapax

08-28-2009, 03:24 PM

Originally posted by JBG84:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ducimus_Rapax:

Anything dealing with the pacific war must be a hard sell in Europe and the UK. It's half a world away, and historically speaking, nobody's had any signficant involvement or no involvement at all. So interest in the PTO must be next to nill

This point is only relevant if Ubisoft solely market the SH game series to Europe. Otherwise..... you forgot about the other 5,500,000,000 potential customers? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, its still relevant. While i don't have the numbers in front of me, im going to hazard a guess that Uboats sell better even in the US. I've seen far too many people on messageboards that are from the US, that know next to nothing about US fleet submarines or the PTO. Which doesn't surprise me since ive met people IRL who do not even know why we celebrate the 4th of july. No joke. Which leads me to beleive that too many people only know what they've seen in movies.

andy3536

08-29-2009, 01:57 AM

Originally posted by Ducimus_Rapax:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JBG84:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ducimus_Rapax:

Anything dealing with the pacific war must be a hard sell in Europe and the UK. It's half a world away, and historically speaking, nobody's had any signficant involvement or no involvement at all. So interest in the PTO must be next to nill

This point is only relevant if Ubisoft solely market the SH game series to Europe. Otherwise..... you forgot about the other 5,500,000,000 potential customers? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unfortunately, its still relevant. While i don't have the numbers in front of me, im going to hazard a guess that Uboats sell better even in the US. I've seen far too many people on messageboards that are from the US, that know next to nothing about US fleet submarines or the PTO. Which doesn't surprise me since ive met people IRL who do not even know why we celebrate the 4th of july. No joke. Which leads me to beleive that too many people only know what they've seen in movies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The US fleet boats of SH 4 sold ok in Europe.
Prefering U-boats as i do i still bought and played Sh 4. It was still a good game.

No reason why people all over the world interested in subs won't buy the next SH game as they did with the previous versions.

Liddabit

09-01-2009, 01:14 PM

I don't think politics really mattered much to most of the extremely young men crammed in a metal tube in terrible dank conditions in the Atlantic. Except for maybe cursing those politics that put them there. Not counting Luth :P

And Ducky is right, Pacific doesn't get as much attention in any media as the Euro theatre does. I've always assumed it was because the fighting seemed so nasty in the Pacific, between the horrors of the jungle, and the particularly nasty fighting. Its almost as if popular media portrays the Euro theatre as a Chivalrous knight fight, black armoured jouster against the White Knight.

klcarroll

09-01-2009, 01:18 PM

@Liddabit;

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

klcarroll

J5_Lehmann

09-01-2009, 11:14 PM

Playing a simulation from the point of view of the Axis will no more make you an “Anti-Semitic Baby Killer” than playing “for the Allies” will make you a “Blessed Savior of Civilization”!
klcarroll

Well that's a relief! I've been worried sick for the last few years that my enjoyment of bratwurst and beer might be seen as un-patriotic.

Bernard on the other hand, is continously writing reports to BdU that my addiction to rocky road icecream proves that I am disloyal to the Ubootwaffe.

I mean SERIOUSLY! I may not be allowed to serve in either simulated submarine fleet!

I like Earl grey tea too... but I dare not tell anyone. I may find myself running supplies to Malta in a U-Class submarine in Her Majesty's Royal Navy...

... which would make things REALLY complicated when they find that I also like lasagna and veal parmesian with a good bottle of red... because I'd be sent to La Spezia to sail with Bernard's brother "Bernardo Franchetti Angelico Scarpace-Martinucci" ...and the whole miserable process would begin again when I'm found eating bratwurst... and am required to leave for the Ubootwaffe for conduct unbecoming of a fascist!

Its a good thing I don't like sake! I'd simply have to draw the line if I was asked to command a Kaiten. It just wouldn't work out for me you see?

So as I said... Its quite a relief... especially to know that I shouldn't wake up one day craving baby-meat barbeque!

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Nuc344

09-02-2009, 02:55 AM

Originally posted by Ducimus_Rapax:
While i don't have the numbers in front of me, im going to hazard a guess that Uboats sell better even in the US.

Does any one actually have a breakdown of the sales numbers or press relaeases from UBI that substantiates the U-boat games have in fact sold better historically? If you could post them I'd really like to see how much of a difference there is.

andy3536

09-02-2009, 10:11 AM

Originally posted by Nuc344:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ducimus_Rapax:
While i don't have the numbers in front of me, im going to hazard a guess that Uboats sell better even in the US.

Does any one actually have a breakdown of the sales numbers or press relaeases from UBI that substantiates the U-boat games have in fact sold better historically? If you could post them I'd really like to see how much of a difference there is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's probably not just that though, releasing another Pacific game when the last one was pacific may impact on the new games sales aswell. Not to mention all the people moaning that they wern't doing anything new http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Would it make practical sales sense to release another Pacific game when SH4 isn't that old and still looks pretty darn good? Why would people that have SH4 pay out for a game that wasn't much of a step up from the one they have?

So you can't just compare SH3 sales to that of 4. There's alot more to take into account.

Sneakerfyndk

10-02-2009, 02:52 AM

Well Im from Denmark. And if Germany won the war. I wood have a picture of Hitler in my room and probely wood I speek better Germen.

Germans are not bad guys. And I love Germany. Its time to forgive and not forget.

Im happy that silent hunter 5 agian is on the Axis site. and the reason is that the axis U-boat are cool! simpel as that. And no matter how good you are to sinking ships in the game you can not chenge the war in the game.

ohh by the way, my favorit movie is ofcause "Das Boot"

DarkOmen13

10-02-2009, 03:09 AM

I think a point a lot of people don't seem to be seeing is that the battle of the atlantic fits perfectly into general game mechanics.

It starts off easy and gets harder the longer you play your campaign, whereas with an Allied point of view it will be more towards the opposite.
The new equipment (schnorkle, rader warning devices) in SH3 helps you survive, in SH4 it just gives you more of an advantage.

Am i wrong? I am far less knowlegable on the pacific and other nations subs, correct me if i'm wrong and i'm happy to learn http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

D.

klcarroll

10-02-2009, 06:44 AM

Am i wrong? I am far less knowlegable on the pacific and other nations subs, correct me if i'm wrong and i'm happy to learn

No, .....Your generalization is actually pretty good. In the Pacific War, the U.S. Navy started out the War by having their butt handed to them at Pearl Harbor.

In December of 1941, almost half of the U.S. Submarine Fleet was comprised of obsolescent, WWI vintage boats; ....And the other half was equipped with the WORST torpedo known to man! (.....At least since the days when the word "Torpedo" meant a keg of black powder lashed to a spar!!)

Yup! .....The Pacific War started off really hard, and then got progressively easier.

klcarroll

cc881976

10-02-2009, 05:00 PM

Ever since I saw the movie das boot, it has been german subs from me. Although I started my submarine commander career with Silent Service.

Hell with politics. Ones and zeros aren't going to hurt anybody.

walkirie

10-04-2009, 03:36 AM

Originally posted by klcarroll:
I’ve said it before in other threads, …..And I guess I’ll repeat it again here:

IT’S A GAME!!!, …….Nothing more – nothing less! ......And anyone who really believes that they have to “Buy Into” the 70 year old politics, philosophies, and practices of one side or the other in order to play a submarine simulation is putting FAR too much into it.

Playing a simulation from the point of view of the Axis will no more make you an “Anti-Semitic Baby Killer” than playing “for the Allies” will make you a “Blessed Savior of Civilization”!

(…Does playing “Black” in a chess game make you a “Bad Guy”????)

The games in question are simply good simulations: …..Enjoy them for what they are, and forget about the politics!!

klcarroll

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif I agree http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif, Silent Hunter is just a game , the more important for me is the realism inmersion factor and the lower as possible amounts of bugs and game errors

.

Jamsac

10-04-2009, 09:13 PM

Me thinks that Herr 'optionstrader's religious upbringing may have something to do with his feels toward the Nazi rejime.
Also, I don't know how anyone would believe that had the Nazis won their doctrin would have survived much past the mid '50s, certainly not to now.
Lastly, I prefer SH3 because the Uboats are so superior to the allied effort's. The US boats might just as well have been converted destroyers as they can stay submerged about as long and as deep without sinking.

ZG10_Oiink

10-05-2009, 06:57 AM

you can do it two ways....

Forgive, but not forget...

Or just let history be history. There are lessons learned from all we have done as humans.....but if we realy have to stick to history and remember...well...

All those africans we dragged all over the world....

The spanish slaughter in south america....

Stalins slaughter of hes own people....

The Brittish way of handeling the colonial places...

The supression of the native Americans....

The crusades...

The vikings and there slaughter....

The list is gigantic.......so do we play a gme for what it is or should we look into history to se "how great" we westeners are....

Geeezzz....its a freaking game...pixels....

Flying sims, 109 ftw
sailing subs, German...
Sailships....pirate...

oooh im a baaaad person....lol

klcarroll

10-05-2009, 09:13 AM

Flying sims, 109 ftw
sailing subs, German...
Sailships....pirate...

oooh im a baaaad person....lol

Yup!! ....And I like to play "Black" in a game of Chess! (...It matches the color of my heart.)

klcarroll

Maverick_U2007

10-06-2009, 07:33 AM

klcarroll

10-06-2009, 08:31 AM

So you DO have a heart then???.....

Ahh...., Well....., Actually, ....No!

I was just using the term figuratively.

klcarroll

JU88

10-09-2009, 04:57 AM

Faelon

10-09-2009, 08:22 AM

Are you guys serious!?? Get over your self righteous nonsense and post something useful for a change!
The only reason this is still going on is all the little egos that need a platform of higher morales to look down on others from so you don't have to feel bad about being a complete dweeb.
If you want an example of morality, if we all play games that deal with killing content does that make us murderers? Not really, right?
So, playing Germans, or Arabs or Imperials, or Deamons should not indicate a harbouring of a morality that is ascribed to that faction.
If you really felt bad about the war at all, you would be helping the survivors of either side get past the horror of it, instead of sitting in your chair taking umbrage at something you know very little about.
Now can the crap and lets discuss a game we are all looking forward to playing, as continuing this strain of idealism only makes you a hypocrite.

klcarroll

10-09-2009, 10:46 AM

Are you guys serious!?? Get over your self righteous nonsense and post something useful for a change!
The only reason this is still going on is all the little egos that need a platform of higher morales to look down on others from so you don't have to feel bad about being a complete dweeb.

@Faelon;

Considering that the last half-dozen posts have all been supportive of the general theme "It's only a game!"; ....I'm not really sure what prompted your outburst.

....Also, ...The generally accepted way to introduce yourself to the forum would be a post that ran along the lines of "Hey guys! .....How's it hangin'??"; .....As opposed to referring to the general membership as "complete dweebs"!!! (.....A bit of name-calling that happens to put you in violation of the "Terms of Use" that you just agreed to!)

Would you like to edit your post and make a second attempt at introducing yourself??

klcarroll

Maverick_U2007

10-10-2009, 02:59 AM

For the people on the sensible side of the 'pond'......

what is a DWEEB?????

Maverick

ZG10_Oiink

10-10-2009, 07:41 AM

kinda like....idiots, morons etc.....

Capt.Thomsen

10-10-2009, 12:46 PM

Personally I think they should have both sides in the game, it worked on a limited basis in SHIV, I don't see why that couldn't be expanded.

Ducimus_Rapax

10-14-2009, 01:46 PM

I prefer SH3 because the Uboats are so superior to the allied effort's. The US boats might just as well have been converted destroyers as they can stay submerged about as long and as deep without sinking.

I know this is an old thread, but damn, is it possible for one to be any more ignorant?

Gun_Jam_

10-14-2009, 02:02 PM

The Axis subs didnt have a position keeper did they? How did they arrive to a firing solution without one???

I dont think SH4 would have been very fun without a position keeper to dial in.

-Gun

psykopatsak

10-14-2009, 03:02 PM

and this thread is ******ed. last game was pacific, this game european, and next one pacific. OK?

Ducimus_Rapax

10-14-2009, 07:02 PM

I don't know where people keep getting the idea that every other game is going to be in a different theater. As sub sim's go, not every theater gets its turn. Before SH4, the last time the series was in the pacific was Silent hunter 1. Silent hunter two, three, and five are uboats.

And as i said elsewhere, For whatever reason, Uboats are probably one of the most, if not the most romanticized elements of WW2. The uboat story has been told and retold to such a degree, they've been stripped of most historical context becoming completely poltically neutral and sterile, laminated with western ideals and ideology, thought of morally as the shining knights of the sea, placed upon a pedestal and worshiped as Hero's, and lamented as the unfortunate martyrs in the tragedy that is war.

This sells far more then any other type of WW2 submarine. Ubi is a business, not a historical society, the bottom line is cash, and the folks at ubi have to make a living too.

leelum

10-21-2009, 12:33 PM

wow, didnt know people could get hung up on whether they play axis or allies :S

Personally I dont think we see enough games based on the axis powers, from flight games to shooters to RTS its mostly alies deafting the evil and ultimatly doomed nazi regime and they are the losers. What a lot of people dont consider is taht the nazi war machine has some seriously impressive accomplishments in its history.

Thats why SH3 was so refreshing for me personally. Speaking as a brit I've got no problem sinking allied convoys and warships the whole game is about more than just sinking ships. It gives you quite an insight into the history of submarines, the innnovations in the tech and counter tech that came about and the resulting tactics.

I mean come on dude look past the fact that you are playing as part of the axis warmachine and you will find a massively immersive game.

Lukin1971

10-22-2009, 01:16 AM

I´ll think its fairly parted: Part 1 is it afaik the german, in Part 2 the an american in part 3 an german in part 4 an american and in part 5 an german. So I´ll think its the bettest way to find an compromise.

The bettest way is, when the user had an choice between more different campaigns from all the sides (german, british, japanese, us or russian). But I´ll think, that ubisoft didn´t want this. So you had to wait until Silent Hunter 6 will appear (when it will come). This is (so i´ll think, when it will be appear) a Game about the allies-side. If its atlantic or pacific, british or us side we had to wait.

Even its good, when in the meantime will collected wishes from the community about the sides (us, british, russian, whatever), the features of the game and so on and to give this collected to ubisoft, until the development will begin.

Sorry for my bad english.

Ducimus_Rapax

10-23-2009, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by leelum:
wow, didnt know people could get hung up on whether they play axis or allies

You can indeed get hung up a bit when you wait for over a decade for a submarine sim for the pacific, only to be tossed a rushed, buggy, incomplete game, and watch as the company stops patching it, and runs back to their mythological cash cow.

Originally posted by leelum:
Personally I dont think we see enough games based on the axis powers,
You must be new to submarine sims. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

spaced_monkey

10-23-2009, 11:39 PM

Originally posted by JBG84:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ducimus_Rapax:

Anything dealing with the pacific war must be a hard sell in Europe and the UK. It's half a world away, and historically speaking, nobody's had any signficant involvement or no involvement at all. So interest in the PTO must be next to nill

This point is only relevant if Ubisoft solely market the SH game series to Europe. Otherwise..... you forgot about the other 5,500,000,000 potential customers? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think they use Germany for the simple reason they utilized in ways others didn't they made a serious effort to strangle the English empire with there subs. Think of it this way before ww2 most navies consisted mostly of surface ships, now the consist mostly of subs.

RottweilExpress

10-24-2009, 05:17 AM

I'd rather command a german sub in the european theater. It rings closer to home as Decimus says. I'm from sweden and I'm not taking any political sides, and I don't support the ideas or goals that nazi germany had.

Faamecanic

10-25-2009, 04:49 PM

Keep in mind...BOTH sides had brave men, that for all they knew and understood, were fighting for love of country, heritage, and the lives of loved ones and family. MOST Germans in that time had no knowledge of the attrocities being committed by a select few.

Read Karl Doenitz biography "10 years and 20 days" to get the "other sides" take on what a solider/sailor meant to them. Adm. Doenitz even defied Hitler at one time defending a lowly seaman that was caught dating a Jewish girl that the SS wanted jailed and put to death.

Trigzdsh

10-28-2009, 06:23 AM

why doesnt the game take both sides so you can choose when you start a campaign what side you want to be on Axis<>Allies

So this can take in that both sides are brave and this would also sell better http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

msalama

11-02-2009, 09:40 PM

So interest in the PTO must be next to nill.

Generally speaking yes, but there're exceptions to this. Take me for example - I'm a Euro, and still find the fleetboats / PTO angle fascinating, because to me both the equipment and the theatre are actually very exotic http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PJMaybe

11-03-2009, 03:48 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cc881976:
Ever since I saw the movie das boot, it has been german subs from me. Although I started my submarine commander career with Silent Service.
QUOTE]

I'm right there with this. I bought SH3 after watching the Das Boot series on DVD. It was dark, gritty and harsh and that's what the Uboat simulation gave me (with the limitations of the tech at that time). I played SH4 only for a short time and went back to SH3 (SH4 looked and sounded great but just didn't have the same grittiness). I can't really put my finger on it but I just didn't get the same feeling from it. I'm so glad we're back in the Uboats again for SH5 and (even as a Brit) I don't feel there is anything at all wrong with that.

Ducimus_Rapax

11-03-2009, 03:13 PM

I don't feel there is anything at all wrong with that.

As long as you don't lose historical perspective.

WernherVonTrapp

11-07-2009, 07:07 AM

There are probably alot of reasons why the ETO generates more interest than the PTO. I think Ducimus summed it up concisely on the first page:
Anything dealing with the pacific war must be a hard sell in Europe and the UK. It's half a world away, and historically speaking, nobody's had any signficant involvement or no involvement at all. So interest in the PTO must be next to nill.

Besides that, the PTO has something in common with the Korean War, it is, for the most part, "The forgotten war". The European theater recieves most of the attention from documentaries, to book writers, to hollywood film makers. Small wonder the PTO generates little interest from game makers. It's something of a pity considering some of the things that occured in the PTO dwarf occurances in Europe such as much "publicized" D day landings. Despite an expanse that dwarfs the ETO, the PTO didn't quite effect the diversity of peoples, cultures and countries that were found in the ETO. For the most part, the PTO was US vs. them. That's not to trivialize the Chinese, Koreans or other countries effected but, at that time, little to nothing was even know about Asian cultures. Most of the islands the U.S. invaded had little to no indigenous population and certainly little accord with religious beliefs here in the states.
In the ETO, Catholics and Protestants on both sides fought each other (i.e., there was commonality). Large populations and numerous historical cities make for more headlines. In addition, more Americans could trace their lineage to Europe than Asia. Not that the U.S. has cornered the market of interest in the PTO but, it would naturally be the consensus for US to prefer some more attention to that theater.
Of course, these are only some of the reasons and by no means preclude other variable toward one theater over the other.
I am a Chess player too and the ideology is correct in saying that playing black doesn't make you the bad guy. Though, I prefer white because white always goes first. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Hmmm, why is that anyway? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

AleksandarVasic

11-08-2009, 06:26 PM

Why do you mix games and politics? I'm from Serbia (ex Yugoslavia). It's a historical fact that if there wasn't for the Yugoslav resistance in WW2, Allies would have a lot more headache in North Africa and Eastern Front because our resistance was the only one in ETO that fought against the Axis as a regular army, unlike i.e. French resistance that was more underground and commando type based (nothing against them, they did contribute a lot) so Axis had to divert a significant part of their troops and resources to Yugoslavia. Partisans even liberated parts of Yugoslav territory and gave a huge blow to Axis supply lines and manpower. Roosevelt, Stalin and Churchill were always concerned about Yugoslav front because partisan operations were very much important to the Allied cause (it's even noted that every morning Churchill's first question to his officers was about Yugoslav front). Even Churchill's son spent a year or so in Yugoslav resistance High Command HQ. And yet, French resistance is being over glorified, even the shameful defeat at Dunkerque was made to look like a "great military operation" and no one from the West ever made a game or a movie about Yugoslav partisans. So what? All of my grandparents fought in partisan army, my great-uncle was slaughtered by Croatian nazis because he was an Orthodox priest, my other great-uncle spent 4 years in Dachau death camp as a prisoner and survived only because he was an electrician and spoke fluent German so they needed him as a maintenance worker in crematory and yet I would personally like to see a movie from a German soldier's point-of-view, or play a video game where you step into boots of a Wehrmacht member (don't mix regular Wehrmacht soldiers and SS troopers). It could be interesting. Game developers often leave swastika out of the design in games where you can choose Axis side (Silent Hunter, Hearts Of Iron etc). And sometimes is kinda stupid when they forbid the emblem and the flag and i.e. in SH3 you get a Knight's Cross or Iron Cross medal that HAS swastika on it. Why? Let's be historically correct. No one leaves swastika out in the movies right? Although nazis committed terrible crimes against Serbs (almost 900 000 killed by SS and in death camps alone, total numbers go around 1,8 million) I do not have anything against using the real symbols in games and movies or creating a game or movie from German POV, as long as it doesn't glorify nazi ideology and SH does not. Those symbols are historical fact and they should be used. Also, German U-Boats were the most sophisticated subs in WW2 and much more fun to play with than Allied ones. And you have to destroy Allied vessels, you are a member of Kriegsmarine right? You fight against an enemy, you are a soldier, it's your job. And it's just a game. It's not like you are killing real people. And some people think that is OK to make a game where you get to put a bullet in German's head. That's politically correct huh? German soldiers are approved turkey shot targets? Don't think so. If it's OK to shoot German soldiers, it's OK to shoot US rangers or British marines as well. Don't mix games and politics.

Ducimus_Rapax

11-09-2009, 12:59 PM

Don't mix games and politics

I think you just did. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

J.L.Chamberlain

11-09-2009, 02:23 PM

I play the game for the learning experience and the thrill while being safe in my chair.

AleksandarVasic

11-09-2009, 04:00 PM

Originally posted by Ducimus_Rapax:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Don't mix games and politics

I think you just did. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think I did. I just said that I have far more reasons to be offended by nazi iconography and symbols or to be pi**ed off by trends of ignoring parts of European history than some people here who complain that playing as Axis in a video game is offensive and that such games are bad. Yet, I am not bothered, quite the opposite, I would like to play such a game. As long as a computer game or a movie is not actually made to serve as a "weapon of propaganda", which means that it's ideologically neutral and serves only for fun and as a piece of art (yes I think games are art, so shoot me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ). Involving any type of politics, positive or negative, is bad. Politics are when you ban nazi symbols which are historically correct and they do not serve to promote the ideology itself, but politics are also when you don't like the fact that you play as the Axis and shoot Allied soldiers and at the same time approve the games where you shoot Axis soldiers on the side of Allies. Game is a game, doesn't matter what role do you play in that game.

WernherVonTrapp

11-09-2009, 05:35 PM

but politics are also when you don't like the fact that you play as the Axis and shoot Allied soldiers and at the same time approve the games where you shoot Axis soldiers on the side of Allies. Game is a game, doesn't matter what role do you play in that game. Hmmmm, uh, oh well, what the heck. I guess I'm guilty too, then. Somehow, (in SHIV) I don't think the game would have the same "zing" for me if I played an IJN destroyer trying to sink a U.S. sub, if that were possible in the game, I mean. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blush.gif
Then again, on the other hand, I don't think it would bother me if I played the skipper of a German sub but, uh, that might be because I'm part German. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Whew! There! I did it! I aired my dirty laundry! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif
Hmmmm, see that? I'm feeling better already. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/inlove.gif

doogerie

11-12-2009, 06:31 AM

to be honist I am gald that we get to see the axis perspective for a change it's cool to see

yngvef

11-30-2009, 11:51 PM

I prefer uboats to fleet boats.

I prefer axis to allies in the good old board game "Axis and allies"

I prefer Bf-109 to Spitfire in Battle of Britain.

I prefer playing for the historically losing team!... Why? Because playing and winning with the allies is just repeating history. It's like being in a play where all the moves and lines are prepared in advance. You just play you part.

With the axis powers, you have everything to win, because even if you lose.. you were supposed to. And if you win, you must have done something extraordinary.

But it doesn't mean I prefer concentration camps or Hitler.

As klcarroll said it: It's a game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And I agree. And games should be fun... Playing the underdog is my fun.

Another reason I like the european theater of operations is that I'm european and that whole PTO is just something that happened on the other side of the planet.

A brief summary of the war in the Pacific 1941-1945 (as seen from Nazi-occupied Europe):

1941: Pearl Harbor bombed (huh.. I didn't even know Hawaii was on American soil)
1942: Thin Red Line. Some guys run through the grass on some beautiful island and get slaughtered by japanese machine guns
1942ish: Battle of Midway: "Splash four carriers!"
1943-1945: Landings on Puuku-oko, Oki-doki... or whatever they're called, Okinawa and hundreds more of pointless islands and atolls.
1945 August: Hiroshima and Nagasaki.. Yippiee! It's all over!

Oh... And "Run Silent Run Deep" happened somewhere in there too... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

alaaarm

12-01-2009, 07:40 AM

Hi all. New to this forum and enjoying this debate. Personally I enjoy the game as many sim fans enjoy"being there". It makes me realise also that the real heroes of this conflict suffered unimaginable terror in this war and when I am "celebrating" sending a freighter to the bottom or reeling from a depth charge attack, I spare a thought for the seamen of ALL nations who didn't have the luxury of fighting a war on a PC.

AleksandarVasic

12-01-2009, 07:09 PM

Agree on that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

mazexx

12-05-2009, 06:08 PM

Originally posted by klcarroll:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Flying sims, 109 ftw
sailing subs, German...
Sailships....pirate...

oooh im a baaaad person....lol

Yup!! ....And I like to play "Black" in a game of Chess! (...It matches the color of my heart.)

klcarroll </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And what was most fun in the game "X-wing vs Tie Fighter"? The X-wing? Nahhh.... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

My mother was inches from getting run over buy a Tiger tank - and then a ship she was on was very close to getting sunk by a strafing 109... An uncle was sunk by a german mine (or sub)... Some of my best friends are jews that got half their families wiped out in concentration camps... Do I have to play the allied because of that? No - I can still see this as a game, and generally I prefer to play the underdog, thus the axis in the case of a WWII game, at least in tanks, planes or subs. I rather play a british or US soldier than playing an german soldier when playing FPS games... I guess it get's more personal on the soldier level than in the vehicles. Apart from that, the german over-engineered vehicles are a lot more interesting to play than the mainstream mass produced allied stuff.

And yes, being a nice guy I think it is good to play out some bad guy manors in a game now and then. Sinking an innocent civilian cargo ship all alone in the Atlantic slowly with your small deck gun to save torpedoes is not a good guy thing... How many of us here have done it in SH III? Did you even enjoy seeing the cargo explode or the bolier blow? Of course you did (but in a sad "das boot" way hopefully)... Does that make you bad? It is an interesting thought...

Scientific studies of the effects of game related violence on young people have shown amazingly few negative effects on kids playing violent games. They are perfectly capable of separating fact from fiction. The important factor to prevent bad effects seemed to be if their parents did show interest in and discussed the games with the kids. If they did not do that - negative effects could be seen, otherwise it was hardly measurable...

Stevepine

12-20-2009, 09:46 AM

I am English and had family members fight against the Germans in World War 2 and relatives who were crew aboard the arctic convoys......... BUT not buying a submarine simulator because you have to take the helm of a U boat is ......well......... STUPID.

It's like the point of view under G W Bush which said " you shouldnt buy French fries cos the French were against us"

Stevepine

12-20-2009, 10:15 AM

and please..... lets ditch the ridiculous " If it wasnt for Old Uncle Sam you'd all be speaking German "

If it wasnt for Hitler's decision to invade Russia would be more accurate.

American armed forces , of course , did play a significant part in WW2 but I hate how Americans these days act like only they fought the Germans.

Just watch U571 for example....... or some of the twisting of facts in Band of Brothers.

socko2009

12-20-2009, 10:46 AM

American armed forces , of course , did play a significant part in WW2 but I hate how Americans these days act like only they fought the Germans.

Just watch U571 for example....... or some of the twisting of facts in Band of Brothers.

Hmmmmm.......

....And can you imagine how some "Americans" feel about people who form their opinions of the U.S. based on the absurd B.S. that comes out of Hollywood???

....How would you feel if the rest of the World judged the U.K. based on the content of your Tabloid Press??

I think you will find that the vast majority of "Americans" on this forum are much better versed in WWII history than you are good enough to give them credit for.

S.

Stevepine

12-20-2009, 10:59 AM

Thats my point though....The problem is the greatest group of misinformed, insuffiently educated people who form their opinions of America straight from Hollywood movies are....... Americans.

So many of you watch and ACTUALLY believe the stuff in the films about yourselves.

Maverick_U2007

12-20-2009, 11:00 AM

Originally posted by Stevepine:
and please..... lets ditch the ridiculous " If it wasnt for Old Uncle Sam you'd all be speaking German "

If it wasnt for Hitler's decision to invade Russia would be more accurate.

American armed forces , of course , did play a significant part in WW2 but I hate how Americans these days act like only they fought the Germans.

Just watch U571 for example....... or some of the twisting of facts in Band of Brothers.

lol....you don't like the Americans today or what????

Never lose sight of the fact that without their equipment and MEN, we, the British in our little island Nation, would have stuggled to invade and therefore evetually defeat the germans...that is unless I read different history books to you, and I seem to have had the same English Education as yourself.

Maverick

Stevepine

12-20-2009, 11:01 AM

Granted... most people on this forum do know their History.

Maverick_U2007

12-20-2009, 11:02 AM

Originally posted by Stevepine:
Thats my point though....The problem is the greatest group of misinformed, insuffiently educated people who form their opinions of America straight from Hollywood movies are....... Americans.

So many of you watch and ACTUALLY believe the stuff in the films about yourselves.

I thought you were having a laugh before????? Obviously not.....

Maverick

Stevepine

12-20-2009, 11:10 AM

Originally posted by Maverick_U2007:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Stevepine:
and please..... lets ditch the ridiculous " If it wasnt for Old Uncle Sam you'd all be speaking German "

If it wasnt for Hitler's decision to invade Russia would be more accurate.

American armed forces , of course , did play a significant part in WW2 but I hate how Americans these days act like only they fought the Germans.

Just watch U571 for example....... or some of the twisting of facts in Band of Brothers.

lol....you don't like the Americans today or what????

Never lose sight of the fact that without their equipment and MEN, we, the British in our little island Nation, would have stuggled to invade and therefore evetually defeat the germans...that is unless I read different history books to you, and I seem to have had the same English Education as yourself.

Maverick </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We all DEPENDED on each other to win the war is what I mean.

There was no ONE nation that went in and kicked *** and took all the credit we were co dependent.

But anyway, not buying a game " cos I dont wannna be a German cos they're the Bad guys" is ridiculous.

Stevepine

12-20-2009, 11:13 AM

Sorry.... the USA centric view of the war is one thing that gets my juices going. Im actually a nice , relaxed, chilled and generally pro American most of the time.....lol

socko2009

12-20-2009, 11:34 AM

Sorry.... the USA centric view of the war is one thing that gets my juices going. Im actually a nice , relaxed, chilled and generally pro American most of the time.....lol

I would respectfully submit that you might do well to avoid such sweeping generalizations concerning "Americans"! .....Or more properly, U.S. citizens! (The Canadians and Mexicans ALSO live on the North American Continent!)

You will find that "homogenous" is the one thing that the U.S. population is definitely NOT! .....And sweeping generalizations simply discredit your viewpoint.

S.

WhiteKnight77

12-20-2009, 11:57 AM

The notion that there were not many different peoples affected by the war in the Pacific is wrong. It affected people from Burma (an English colony) to Malaya, to New Guinea to the Aleutian Islands and everywhere in between. Vietnam, China, Korea, the Philippines, Taiwan, and of course the countless islands that the Japanese occupied that are to numerous to name. While some were uninhabited most were and not necessarily those of Japanese descent. Many were pressed into service much as those from the ETO were.

Over the last couple of years, I have read at least 20 books about the PTO, from subs to surface fleets to the air war to the island hopping campaign. The PTO history is there, ya just have to look for it and with the PTO being many times larger than the ETO, there is much to cover. The Alamo Scouts (one thing MacArthur did do pretty much right) is but one story as much as The Airmen and The Headhunters (Borneo) and The Ghost Mountain Boys (New Guinea) are others.

Now to play as the Allies or the Axis, it makes no difference as this is a game (this is getting pretty redundant, isn't it?) . It will not change the outcome of the war or make you a war criminal. Enjoy it for what it is and maybe learn something (one can learn from games mind you) new.

WhiteKnight77

12-21-2009, 07:00 PM

I just came across a passage in a book I just started reading on the war in the Pacific during WWII and thought of this thread.

Originally by William B. Hopkins:
The Pacific War was predominately a navy war. From the start, most military leader in Japan and the United States recognized this; however, U.S. news releases at the time did not portray it as much. Most focused on Gen. Douglas MacArthur and the U.S. Marines and Army ground troops. Although Japanese losses caused by the U.S. Navy and U.S. Air Force were frequently mentioned, strict censorship prevented the U.S. Navy's role in those losses from being reported to-and fully understood by-the American public. Very few news articles recounted the role of the U.S. submarine fleet, whose performance in cutting Japanese supply lines excelled that of all other branches of service.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51At6iVL4CL._BO2,204,203,200_PIsitb-sticker-arrow-click,TopRight,35,-76_AA240_SH20_OU01_.jpg (http://www.amazon.com/reader/0760334358?_encoding=UTF8&ref_=sib%5Fdp%5Fpt#reader-link)

This above quote may explain some of the reasons why we didn't hear much or have much history about the war in the Pacific, at least until lately.

Ducimus_Rapax

12-21-2009, 08:15 PM

All im going to say is, my hackles are up. If it didn't look like this had died down, id be making some damn scathing posts.

Rusty_S85

12-22-2009, 02:54 PM

Well as been said so many times before its just a game. To be clear, I am from the US and I actually prefer the german U-boats. Maybe its because we had so many in the gulf coast area. Maybe its because after the war the german XXI Uboat was the main basis of all subs to follow. Maybe its because the atlantic is smaller than the pacific thus ships are more concentrated.

But for those that dont like to play for germany cause they are the "bad guys" why not sink your own friendly ships and get negative renown? I just think its crazy to put too much faith into these games. There are alot of reasons why people prefer the game they play.

When that T3 game came out I used to play as the machines or the "bad guy" basically just because it was enjoyable. When it comes to the SH series isnt it enjoyable to sink ships regardless who they belong to.

AbleMaster

12-26-2009, 04:10 AM

Reading this thread i can see both sides of the coin, but for me its the challenge of it all not the side, i would of course prefer to be allied as im English but as alreay said many times its just a game, so i think of red and blue forces, then crack on with it, the Battle for the Atlantic is imo the most interesting and challenging area for submarine warefare.
Many lessons were learnt and new tactics and weapons developed, understand why it is the number one choice for the dev team, alot of good men died on both sides, so as a game it will stay for me, both challenging and interesting the side is not important here, at least not for me, Sh5 looks amazing and i cant wait to get my hands on it, so enjoy the game for what it is, theres my 10p worth.