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psyborg_666
02-20-2006, 02:51 PM
Seems like in every message board where games are discussed there are these franchise purist *****ing aobut how this is "just run'n'gun garbage" or this is an "arcade shoot-em-up"

now ill admit i havent played too many tactical games, Swat 4 and various anti terror games make up my small list, and ive never played any previous R6 or GR games but calling this arcade seems rediculus to me.

I have a squad of soldiers i can command, i can have them load up on a door bust it open
and flashbang (this feels tactical to me)

U cant pick up the enemies weapons

We have helmets on (unlike the console bs)

there is no health, 1 or two shots and your down(this feels very tactical to me)

there are no rx bottles that somehow heal gunshots and even more so there are no hovering spinning health and armor powerups randomly placed

there arent supplies placed in offices at every loacaton we venture (like f.e.a.r.)

If u run into the middle a room guns blazing ur gonna go down.(unlike run'n'gun shooters) for that matter if u do pretty much anything stupid ur gonna go down.

Granted im not defending the game entirely, i have a few complaints myself(mostly in the enemy AI) but calling this an arcade shoot em up peice of **** mindless gunner simply becuase you run fast and in multiplayer u respawn ? ?

both of which could be easily modded right?

anyways just food for though

psyborg_666
02-20-2006, 02:57 PM
And to further my point, when i think arcade shooter; Total Overdose or Serious Sam comes to mind. When i think run'n'gun Quake 4 or Hl2 comes to mind. Lockdown does not remind me of any of these titles at all.

Druac
02-20-2006, 03:05 PM
and ive never played any previous R6 or GR games but calling this arcade seems rediculus to me.

There is your problem in understanding http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

I think that it is in the 'feel' of the game, more than any specific feature. And if you have not 'felt' what the previous R6 games were like, you won't ever get it.

psyborg_666
02-20-2006, 03:12 PM
i understand that, but not having the feel of previous r6 games automatically makes it an arcade shooter?

Vert22110
02-20-2006, 03:45 PM
For last ****ing time, when people say "Arcade" shooter they are talking in a generalized context that means the game is less tactical than the previous ones in the series. Thats all.

Xessive
02-20-2006, 03:47 PM
I agree. Most people are comparing it to all the previous R6 games. All the previous ones had a very tactical and strategic way of playing. So the biggest argument is that this is more of a action console port than a game developed specifically for PC.

Personally the controls are fine, I'm comfortable with it. However it is a lot more action than tactical. Frankly it feels like a refined version of Ghost Recon. If you loved GR you'll like this.

Oh and there is a "health bar" now. It's 3 hits. Which makes it seem more like an action/arcade shooter.

Keep in mind I'm not saying it's a bad game. I just think it needs a lot of fixing to be great.

Truju
02-20-2006, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by psyborg_666:


If u run into the middle a room guns blazing ur gonna go down.(unlike run'n'gun shooters) for that matter if u do pretty much anything stupid ur gonna go down.




Actually I just completed the entire single player campaign on "challenge" doing this exact thing in 1 night. I can count on 1 hand how many times I had to take cover for a well placed shot.

Some of your own "food for 'though'"

DayGlow
02-20-2006, 04:21 PM
and people can lonewolf the old R6 games, GR, SWAT, etc. So I don't really think that's a valid way of looking at it. Many mission in SWAT I got frustrated with the AI doing something dumb and dieing so I go Rambo on the rest of the level, and wouldn't you know it, most times I can complete it no problem, by myself.

LD has the team controls and the tactics if you wish to use them. It's up to you. Hopefully as the modders dig deeper into the scripts they can increase the tango AI, looks as if they already have somewhat. That's a good thing.

Vadimnk
02-20-2006, 05:20 PM
I guess UBI's master plan is working... make this game available and interesting to non-realistic, real R6 fans... Good Job UBI, Pad your self on the back.

I'm very happy for someone of you who already completed this game, I can't get passed the first level, you know why? I start falling asleep.

Oh who needs to switch team members when the main character never dies?!??!?! Thats why they took out that feature.

I give up...

psyborg_666
02-20-2006, 06:19 PM
Originally posted by Vert22110:
For last ****ing time, when people say "Arcade" shooter they are talking in a generalized context that means the game is less tactical than the previous ones in the series. Thats all.


so basically noone really thinks its an arcade shooter they just call it that becuase they dont like it. got it.

and Truju, i do not believe you, or care but thanks for pointing out my typo.

Nomad_381
02-20-2006, 07:29 PM
^It's called "run & gun" because you can "run" and at the same time "gun." In real life there is no accuracy while doing this and it really screws with the gameplay dynamics, especially in adversarial MP where you cant simply choose to play the game your way (have to be competitive). The phrase "arcade shooter" is simply a synonym to "run & gun" shooter.

Also there is "spray & pray" only in this game its not the one who sprays that prays.

p.s. from the GRAW videos of the dev shooting at tangos with an average of half a clip at a time, i'm not sure that GRAW will be that much different from Lockdown in terms of damage model and ballistics physics http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

DayGlow
02-20-2006, 07:33 PM
I'm confused. When I run in LD the pips on the redicle move to about halfway across the screen. You have pretty much zero accuracy unless your target is within 5 ft of you, much like real life.

Sleepagogo
02-20-2006, 07:47 PM
imo i think most ppl call it an arcade shooter because of the shooting gallery feel to it, where there are around 60-100 (i think?) tangos with very bad accuracy and the fact that there are alot of scripts and stuff (in the demo anyways).

meangreen06
02-20-2006, 08:36 PM
R6 had a way of giving the player a tactical feeling. Tango placement and the way you had to slowly move through a level, checking every corner.

LD is just like a shooting gallery.....I never check a corner, cause I don't have to. Half the time Tangos just sit there anyway and jell something out long before they start to shoot. And even if they get some shots off, unless they are right in front of me, they never hit me. So I can just run through the whole level and pick them out one by one. I have to say, that the more I play the full version, the more disappointed do I get!

The-Pizza-Man
02-20-2006, 08:58 PM
I think people call it an arcade shooter largely because the player lost the freedom to move about a map and achieve the objectives in any way they choose. There is very little macro tactics involved(sorry if thats not the correct term for it). A railroad shooter just isn't R6.

KungFu_CIA
02-20-2006, 09:20 PM
People call it an arcade shooter because of the damage model being used.

The one being used in Lockdown is arcade as it has three health bars and the fact it takes more than one shot to kill a Tango, the player or the AI Team except to the head.

Rainbow Six has always been two, three shots at most even if the Tangos were wearing body armor. The One-Shot, One-Kill in its strictest sense may not be realistic -- or the exact model R6 used -- But it was the model R6 started with and therefore, the drastic change to what most games like BF2 and CS use (multiple hits to take down a target) is considered arcade.

The run and gun part is something which has ALWAYS been in R6. Especially, the MP part.

I think it is funny how R6 MP players love to tout MP as not a run and gun game when it is the exact same thing as most MP games where people move as fast as they can and shoot everything in sight. Lest I remind the veterans of the MP5K-PDW bug which made Rogue Spear a strafing-fest? Talk about "tactics"...

Which is another term which is thrown around in the R6 Community, but is often misused or not even understood as Geiger once posted on.

ANY game has tactics. Halo, Quake, CS and R6 have tactics. The difference in R6 is some of those tactics require you to be more careful and not rush into a crowd of five opponents because the damage model -- key factor -- Won't allow you to surive very long... But other than that, "tactics" do not make R6 unique or special.

In fact, I think the next game should be marketed on being REALISTIC (realism) and not so-called tactics or "tactical" because the term is misleading and has a negative connotation of being "slow" and "methodical" when everyone who has played ANY of the R6 games (from R6 to Raven Shield) knows it is anything but slow and methodical online, even in Clan play -- Or especially, in competitive play, regardless of what competitive players will tell you.

tonytwotoes
02-20-2006, 09:32 PM
In fact, I think the next game should be marketed on being REALISTIC (realism) and not so-called tactics or "tactical" because the term is misleading and has a negative connotation of being "slow" and "methodical"

I think the operative words in that statement are "I think." I don't expect tactical games to be slow. Speed and surprise are two of the most important tactical elements.


...when everyone who has played ANY of the R6 games (from R6 to Raven Shield) knows it is anything but slow and methodical online, even in Clan play -- Or especially, in competitive play, regardless of what competitive players will tell you.

So regardless of what competitive players tell you, your mind is made up. Thats a great attitude for a member of this "council." If you've never had another team holed up in the back of their map with only 3 entry points and had to coordinate an assault on the fly by time delaying your entries and use of grenades flashbangs and room clearing, then you don't have any idea what you are on about and shouldn't comment on online games. Just leave it to the members of the council who actually have a clue.

subzero1900
02-20-2006, 09:48 PM
Rainbow Six has always been two, three shots at most even if the Tangos were wearing body armor. The One-Shot, One-Kill in its strictest sense may not be realistic -- or the exact model R6 used -- But it was the model R6 started with and therefore, the drastic change to what most games like BF2 and CS use (multiple hits to take down a target) is considered arcade.

And they chose you to be a Council member...wtf... this is just another lie...someone wasn't playing the same R6:RS that I remember...(granted SP it didn't take much to kill the tangos, but they could still take more then 3 shots)...Have you forgotten MP surviveing 14 shots... I do...do i remember playing shotgun wars and surviveing more then 14...I do...this is what gets my goat...people claim so much and then they dont recall the past as it actually was.

the major factor that made the games "realistic" was if you did manage to survive more then 3 shots you were pretty bad off trying to survive....""""""""THE GIMP SYSTEM"""""""".... which didnt get implimented after they replaced it with the "Cracked Goggle system" which was appauling replacing gameplay with "Oooh neat Graphics"

Imparfait
02-20-2006, 09:49 PM
I'll have a quick crack at this.

The arcade comes from a large combination of elements which degrade the OMG I'm there realism, to more of a passive OMG I'm at the movies... sortof.

The largest "arcade" element I find is the never ending funnel. You walk in a straight line (with some twists and turns), trip script points, shoot hundreds of terrorists etc. Reminisent of those old side scrolling shootem ups in the arcade. Complete with a health bar, snide remarks, tons flashy bullet fire.

There are so many doors in the game which are simply pictures, such an illusion of an expansive level when they are anything but. Even your team members are spoon fed, you can't even change their armor level etc.

Ultimatly its the rolling track feel. You put your money in, hit the start button and off you go.

Still fun, just not nearly an accurate portrayal of an actual takedown. (I swear if my team stands in front of an uncleared door way with their back to it one more time i'll execute them myself!)

Yahweh_
02-20-2006, 09:57 PM
Here we got some UBI-employed forum members once Lockdown retail was released

DayGlow
02-20-2006, 10:15 PM
Here we got some UBI-employed forum members once Lockdown retail was released

too bad we can't have any discussion because people need to take shots from the sidelines without adding anything to it.

Deal with the fact that different people have different interpetations of what arcade is and discussion like this actually help better understand the underlying concepts needed to make a better game.

wick1975
02-20-2006, 10:22 PM
The largest "arcade" element I find is the never ending funnel. You walk in a straight line (with some twists and turns), trip script points, shoot hundreds of terrorists etc. Reminisent of those old side scrolling shootem ups in the arcade. Complete with a health bar, snide remarks, tons flashy bullet fire.
I couldnt have said it better...It reminds me of that game called HEAVY METAL,Which I loved,,but this is 2006,I would think that its a POS if it was released today.Now you know what I think what Arcade-like means http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DayGlow
02-20-2006, 10:24 PM
I whole heartly agree with the overloaded maps. Even RvS was over loaded for most missions. I enjoyed doing tango hunt with maybe 5 tangos on the map. I found it much more stressful not knowing that there will be a bad guy around every corner.

But realistic numbers go both ways. No way you would send a team of 4 guys to do this job, or 8 or even 16. Look at the Irain hostage plan. 120 delta operators to dominate 3 buildings and at max 10-20 hostiles. Plus a company of Rangers for outer perimeter security. Part of CQB is overwhelming your enemy.

Another good example is the Dallas SWAT show on A&E these days. They typically send in 2 entry teams of 8 guys into a house that has 1, maybe 2 hostiles in it.

KungFu_CIA
02-20-2006, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by tonytwotoes:

I think the operative words in that statement are "I think." I don't expect tactical games to be slow. Speed and surprise are two of the most important tactical elements.

So regardless of what competitive players tell you, your mind is made up. Thats a great attitude for a member of this "council." If you've never had another team holed up in the back of their map with only 3 entry points and had to coordinate an assault on the fly by time delaying your entries and use of grenades flashbangs and room clearing, then you don't have any idea what you are on about and shouldn't comment on online games. Just leave it to the members of the council who actually have a clue.

I like how you and Subzero and everyone else can disagree with me in a such a "mature" manner.

It is this kind of attitude that isn't going to help argue your, mine or whomever's -- The Community's -- Case as to why UBI/RSE (or whoever will make the next game) should treat it's "mature" and more "adult" fans with more respect and give them a game worthy of that respect, aka a PC-Centric game which is what everyone weants... Because it will never be what YOU want in the end, either, so why even try?

evilbanshee
02-20-2006, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by psyborg_666:

If u run into the middle a room guns blazing ur gonna go down.(unlike run'n'gun shooters) for that matter if u do pretty much anything stupid ur gonna go down.



That's not true. I played the demo on challenging and I could run straight out into the open from cover to cover and the enemy AI couldn't even hit me. I almost never bothered to use crouch while playing. There were some occasions when I could just stand still and take my time to shoot all the tangos.

And at the end of the mission, I had to take the hostages out into the streets. The terrorists were waiting for me outside behind some parked cars. I got so annoyed at watching them constantly pop their heads up and down from behind cover that I just ran out to where they were hiding and shot them point blank. At least my team AI helped out that time.

tonytwotoes
02-21-2006, 12:47 AM
Sorry Kung Fu.

If you would be so kind, please acquiesce from making further commentary on something of which you have a limited understanding and experience, and if it be not too much to ask, perhaps you might give precedence to the opinions of those who are more likely to represent those of us who concentrate our gaming time on the multiplayer element of the franchise.

UBI could give a rats **** about my maturity mate. They want money. They will make more money if they make a GREAT game. I don't want them to make the game I want. I want them to make the game I never knew I wanted, and have it blow away any preconceptions I might have had. Just like RvS did.

Respect is earned mate. Respect in this case means I spend money on the product. It's that simple. There are obviously too many people at UBI complicating the matter. Great game + great marketing = more sales. **** game + great marketing = less sales.

I wont be obsequious to get what I want, and neither should you think it will work for you.

Xessive
02-21-2006, 12:56 AM
Originally posted by tonytwotoes:
Sorry Kung Fu.

If you would be so kind, please acquiesce from making further commentary on something of which you have a limited understanding and experience, and if it be not too much to ask, perhaps you might give precedence to the opinions of those who are more likely to represent those of us who concentrate our gaming time on the multiplayer element of the franchise.

UBI could give a rats **** about my maturity mate. They want money. They will make more money if they make a GREAT game. I don't want them to make the game I want. I want them to make the game I never knew I wanted, and have it blow away any preconceptions I might have had. Just like RvS did.

Respect is earned mate. Respect in this case means I spend money on the product. It's that simple. There are obviously too many people at UBI complicating the matter. Great game + great marketing = more sales. **** game + great marketing = less sales.

I wont be obsequious to get what I want, and neither should you think it will work for you.

Well said. I concur.

psyborg_666
02-21-2006, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by Imparfait:
I'll have a quick crack at this.

The arcade comes from a large combination of elements which degrade the OMG I'm there realism, to more of a passive OMG I'm at the movies... sortof.

The largest "arcade" element I find is the never ending funnel. You walk in a straight line (with some twists and turns), trip script points, shoot hundreds of terrorists etc. Reminisent of those old side scrolling shootem ups in the arcade. Complete with a health bar, snide remarks, tons flashy bullet fire.

There are so many doors in the game which are simply pictures, such an illusion of an expansive level when they are anything but. Even your team members are spoon fed, you can't even change their armor level etc.

Ultimatly its the rolling track feel. You put your money in, hit the start button and off you go.

Still fun, just not nearly an accurate portrayal of an actual takedown. (I swear if my team stands in front of an uncleared door way with their back to it one more time i'll execute them myself!)


this actually makes alot of sence, i still wouldnt go as far as call it arcade but this gives me a better grasp as to why other people do, thanks.

Nomad_381
02-21-2006, 02:48 AM
Originally posted by Nomad_381:
^It's called "run & gun" because you can "run" and at the same time "gun." In real life there is no accuracy while doing this and it really screws with the gameplay dynamics, especially in adversarial MP where you cant simply choose to play the game your way (have to be competitive). The phrase "arcade shooter" is simply a synonym to "run & gun" shooter.

Also there is "spray & pray" only in this game its not the one who sprays that prays.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


Originally posted by DayGlow:
I'm confused. When I run in LD the pips on the redicle move to about halfway across the screen. You have pretty much zero accuracy unless your target is within 5 ft of you, much like real life.


Oops. It looks like I got caught up between windows and thought I was replying on the console board. I havent played the PC lockdown.

Waika
02-21-2006, 04:14 AM
<span class="ev_code_GREY">Originally posted by psyborg_666:
Seems like in every message board where games are discussed there are these franchise purist *****ing aobut how this is "just run'n'gun garbage" or this is an "arcade shoot-em-up"

now ill admit i havent played too many tactical games, Swat 4 and various anti terror games make up my small list, and ive never played any previous R6 or GR games but calling this arcade seems rediculus to me.</span>
Well, I'll take an honest stab at answering -- if you can take the answer to heart as sincere discussion of the differences between 'Action Realism' and 'Tactical Realism'...

The principle differences are not going to be found or defined by specific: details, features, or game metrics -- the defining differences between 'Action Realism' and 'Tactical Realism' are conceptual... Read on if you're really interested.


<span class="ev_code_GREY">Originally posted by psyborg_666:
I have a squad of soldiers i can command, i can have them load up on a door bust it open
and flashbang (this feels tactical to me)</span>
Indeed, and that summerizes one of the chief differences between 'Action Realism' and 'Tactical Realism':

'Action Realism' games are designed to 'look and feel' realistic, to give you a sense of cinematic atmosphere, immersiveness and enough toys and things to do that you get that kind of 'you-are-there' experience.

'Tactical Realism' games are designed on the premise that they 'play realistically'; that is the emphasis is on reinforcing the use of realistic tactics. You may be able to use realistic tactics in an Action Realism game -- in a Tactical Realism game you have to use realistic tactics or you'll fail...


<span class="ev_code_GREY">Originally posted by psyborg_666:
U cant pick up the enemies weapons</span>
Indeed, but interactive features have little to do with the kind of realism game you're playing -- in deference to realism an Elite Operative or experienced 'Man-Of-War' is almost never going to pick up an enemy's weapon to use it -- he doesn't know how it's been maintaned, how it's been sighted in; hell in the real world rifles can and have been booby-trapped...


<span class="ev_code_GREY">Originally posted by psyborg_666:
We have helmets on (unlike the console bs)</span>
Again, this is a superficial aesthetic consideration -- you may have noticed that while many Tactical Realism Fans found this funny and annoying; they were much more concerned with how the game would play -- and whether 'no helmets' ment other more improtant Tactical Realism design concerns were equally marginalized (as they clearly have been)...


<span class="ev_code_GREY">Originally posted by psyborg_666:
there is no health, 1 or two shots and your down(this feels very tactical to me)</span>
Here I agree -- the damage model in Lockdown is not too far off the mark for say NIJ IIIa improved body armor....


<span class="ev_code_GREY">Originally posted by psyborg_666:
there are no rx bottles that somehow heal gunshots and even more so there are no hovering spinning health and armor powerups randomly placed

there arent supplies placed in offices at every loacaton we venture (like f.e.a.r.)</span>
Again, these are petty features that can and even have been to some extent realistically executed even in Tactical Realism games -- and don't define the genre differences.

I would definately agree though that F.E.A.R. is a poster child for a definitive 'Action Realism' game -- and I'm not depreciating 'Action Realism' games here in any way; just trying to make some defining comparisons of the differences and Audience expectations.


<span class="ev_code_GREY">Originally posted by psyborg_666:
If u run into the middle a room guns blazing ur gonna go down.(unlike run'n'gun shooters) for that matter if u do pretty much anything stupid ur gonna go down.</span>
Sadly, in Lockdown, that's just not true. I have in the "Challenge" mode sprinted without stopping and completed three missions just to see if it could be done -- it can. In a Tactical Realism game this would not be merely a challenge it would be virtually impossible. The AI would flank and surround you, snipe you, corner you, or just line up and hose you -- not to mention the fact that you wouldn't be able to hit them at all...


<span class="ev_code_GREY">Originally posted by psyborg_666:
Granted im not defending the game entirely, i have a few complaints myself(mostly in the enemy AI) but calling this an arcade shoot em up peice of **** mindless gunner simply becuase you run fast and in multiplayer u respawn ? ?</span>
And I'm not de-valuing the game: R6 Lockdown is just not a Tactical Realism game... I don't think anyone is calling it "mindless" game but you; Tactical Realism Fans are just calling it what it is for them: "disappointing"....


<span class="ev_code_GREY">Originally posted by psyborg_666:
both of which could be easily modded right?</span>
Sadly, apparently not at this time with the tools we've been given by the Ubis...


<span class="ev_code_GREY">Originally posted by psyborg_666:
anyways just food for though</span>
And some more: any game including science fiction and magical fantasy shooters can be approached and played with realistic CQC/B RTFA squad tactics -- but again, the thing that differentiates STS/Tactical Realism games from anything else bareing a realism paint job is that the more unrealistically you play, the more poorly you'll do... Sadly, in Lockdown that's just not true. None of this makes Lockdown poop, mindless or worthless, it's just not what the R6 Legacy has promised for a decade; and Lockdown definately does not take the genre to the next level...

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SODsniper
02-21-2006, 06:14 AM
Originally posted by tonytwotoes:
Great game + great marketing = more sales. **** game + great marketing = less sales.


And continuing your model to it's logical conclusion, **** game + **** marketing* = ZERO sales, relatively speaking.

Given this obvious fact, one really has to wonder what kind of Business advice UBI is getting. And, who are the getting it from?? EA Games??



*Marketing, to me, is PR, Customer Relations, etc etc

SODsniper
02-21-2006, 06:42 AM
Originally posted by Waika:
<A really good post>


I am going to bookmark this post by Waika. Next time I see someone post that there is not any mature, honest, sincere and adult critisisms of LD, that it is all just flames, I am going to point out this post.

Good job, Waika

IHI.OuTcAsT
02-21-2006, 06:55 AM
It is not tactical shooter because the maps are one-way (linear) and the AI is extremely weak, even if you mod the AI and Terrorist files to the best they are still very stupid. I can solo almost every map in the Terrorist Hunt on the Challenge difficulty and in the Mercenary settings. However I still can't solo easily a Terrorist Hunt on Elite in Raven Shield.

RSE should have released Rainbow Six:Lockdown as a multiplayer only game for the PC (like Day of Defeat or something). All maps should be like the multiplayer ones (non-linear) and all the development time of the SP part would go to multiplayer. I would like the game if it has 15-20 multiplayer maps, and no missions. Better dedicated server, better balancing of running speed/weapons etc. That would be an excuse for no planning phase, no map etc. I consider Sum of all fears game more of a rainbow six game than that. Right now it has a weak SP part, and an unfinished MP part.

DayGlow
02-21-2006, 07:19 AM
I don't really think the RvS AI should be the baseline we work off of. The LD AI has it's issues, hopefully most of them will be fixed by modders, but from what I saw at the RSE office, much what they do is done in logic, not scripts. I guess we are not there yet, where an AI can take in their evironment and decide for themselves what is the best cover. That's how it's supposed to work. I'm still waiting on getting my full version, but in the demo I could see this, even though the AI was too easy.

RvS on the other hand hardly ever moved, it made a bee-line towards the player if it 'heard' him and had uncanny reflexes and accuracy, nothing more.

Personally I see a lot of promise in both the team and tango AI in LD. Yes it makes stupid mistakes, but it also is much more fluid than most other's I've seen in games (FEAR is probably the best I've seen ever, but having not played through the same sections multiple times I don't know if it's a heavy script or actually analyzing the evironment). Myself I don't have an issue with my teammates walking in front of my fire, but when I breach a room I don't stop and shoot, I push to a corner, then find cover just like the AI.

We'll have to see how the modding efforts make a difference in the overall experience.

Woosy
02-21-2006, 08:19 AM
Lockdown is a semi-realistic shooter like counter-strike which is an arcade game. You don't need health pickups or weapon pickups, knife etc to for it to be arcade it's how it plays and its apearance. In Counter-Strike the models take on realistic Ct teams navy seals gign SAS etc which are realistic teams, they are put in a gaming enviroment where real rules don't apply, you can run and shoot and be accurate scope and shoot be slower but still accurate. Simular things happen in Lockdown.

The names of weapons are wrong like counter-strike, unlike cs you can carry an insane amount of ammunition even cs is conservative with about 190 rounds.

In counter-strike you can take an unreal beating you can withstand a grenade or two you have health and amour displayed in numbers, in lockdown you can take alot of punishment before going down to 1 bar of health instead of numbers it's bars.

Lockdown like cs has an ammo pool of bullets which if you reload the magazine automaticaly gets filled to the brim, unlike lockdown cs displays number of bullets per mag, like counter-strike if you're shot you're not punished pefomance wise with speed or accuracy.

The linear play adds to the arcade feel like timecrisis, even counter-strike an arcade shooter has open play levels, when I look at multiplay it feels like counter-strike in terms of gameplay T's vs Ct's though more realistic then rainbow vs rainbow it feels like a cs clone. I think thats where people get the idea of arcade, compare it to arcade semi-realistic shooters.

Previous R6 titles you would get punished for the things you can do in lockdown tactical shooter is the wrong term for them I think as anygame can be, they are realistic thinking shooters, in the way that the things that are done in the game you need to think about what you're doing, you get punished if you're shot.

buddhiraja
02-21-2006, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by DayGlow:
I don't really think the RvS AI should be the baseline we work off of.
yeah, the RVS AI was pretty bad.


I guess we are not there yet, where an AI can take in their evironment and decide for themselves what is the best cover.
There was a preview at IGN a few months back about a very early version of Graw pc. There, the previewer said that an enemy truck stopped in a courtyard in front of the ghosts. On seeing it the ghosts first dived for the closest cover -- then they found some better cover in a methodical manner. So ....


(FEAR is probably the best I've seen ever, but having not played through the same sections multiple times I don't know if it's a heavy script or actually analyzing the evironment).
The Fear AI react differently most of the times. They definitely analyze the environment. It could have been a very good AI but the problem is --- the bots are constantly on the move, even if it is unnatural/detrimental to do so. They simply cannot stay behind the same cover whatever the situation but must move from one place to the other. In the process they very often lose the player even if the player has not moved. I guess it is because Fear is meant to be a run and gun shooter. But the Fear AI shows that AI programming has definitely progressed a lot and the bots can react according to how the game progresses.

subzero1900
02-21-2006, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by KungFu_CIA:
I like how you and Subzero and everyone else can disagree with me in a such a "mature" manner.

It is this kind of attitude that isn't going to help argue your, mine or whomever's -- The Community's -- Case as to why UBI/RSE (or whoever will make the next game) should treat it's "mature" and more "adult" fans with more respect and give them a game worthy of that respect, aka a PC-Centric game which is what everyone weants... Because it will never be what YOU want in the end, either, so why even try?

well, even argueing in all the mature manner that we can muster will get us no where when dealing with an Arogant Opinionated person who dosen't bend his own Ideas with the "Community" That hes supposed to be "Representing"

You can keep using this "Immature" Defense all you want, its still a ligitmate Arguement that Has Valid Points and as long as your Ignoring what you deem as "Immature" you are being a Hindearance to this "Community"

(aren't "'s Fun?)

tonytwotoes
02-21-2006, 10:20 AM
And continuing your model to it's logical conclusion, **** game + **** marketing* = ZERO sales, relatively speaking.


LOL - I knew I was going somewhere with that equation. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Thanks.

Druac
02-21-2006, 10:29 AM
Waika

Wow...yeah...what Waika said! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Imparfait
02-21-2006, 11:27 AM
When approaching this game we have to all be prepared to deal with a bit of fantasy.

Dayglow made a good point about the size of objectives. I am confined on what I can say about SOPs, doctrine etc but there are some basic things everyone does.

1st of which is always leaving a trailer. This means a link man in almost every room cleared or advantageous location to A) Maximize rear security B) provide a pathway for your buddies in depth to get up to the front through a secure route.

Other things, such as not marking rooms which have been cleared (glow sticks, mine tape, chalk on doors) is another large miss.

A building like a school for example is a company sized objective no matter how good/well trained your troops are. 8 guys just don't have the stamina or man power to securly take an objective the size of anything from RvS etc.

These are large fantasy elements I am willing to live with, this is Rainbow, the best of the best. Honestly, who wants to play as a link man in coop anyway? lol.

Additionally I agree that the AI in Lockdown is a step up from RvS. RvS all the baddies could snap shoot like you wouldn't believe, at least you could sneak up on them and supressors worked.

I maintain my view on the arcade feel (beat the single player running and gunning in a day), many broken items in the game. Multiplayer, options missing etc.

Lets hope this mysterious announcement is something good.

Truju
02-21-2006, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by DayGlow:
I'm confused. When I run in LD the pips on the redicle move to about halfway across the screen. You have pretty much zero accuracy unless your target is within 5 ft of you, much like real life.

Which isnt an issue when you can run up to 70% of them point blank *then* shoot them

IHI.OuTcAsT
02-21-2006, 08:48 PM
Raven Shield has great AI for me.

In Raven Shield terrorists could hear you and they would come for you, not ignore you. Of course they could also go away from fear. Veteran difficulty was great balance of smart reactions and pretty realistic decision. On Elite they had very good accuracy and reflexions. That was realistic. Elite means that those guys must react as good as rainbow members, and that was that they did. When a terrorist is in a room he is supposed to check and defend the entrance door. That;s his job, and you can't just run in and kill him. You need a frag/flashbang, else you have to risk it because he will shoot some bullets on you.

I consider Raven Shield the best AI for close quarter map. And the Ghost Recon AI with patch 1.4 the best for open maps. Rogue Spear had good AI but had so many bugs that was not realistic at all.

I tested every modding settings in Lockdown for improving the terrorists on AI, Accuracy and generally everything. They still stay stupid. So stupid that it is unbelievable. You can't have any challenge with the AI. The only reason you can die is because you hadn't seen one enemy (either because of range, or because of darkness). This game, at this engine state, can't get any serious improvement from mods for Single Player. It is not worth even trying. I think the only thing UBI can do is make multiplayer stable, balanced, with dedicated server support and with many maps. All patches should focus on that, else it is just a dead game.

DayGlow
02-21-2006, 08:52 PM
Originally posted by Imparfait:
When approaching this game we have to all be prepared to deal with a bit of fantasy.

Dayglow made a good point about the size of objectives. I am confined on what I can say about SOPs, doctrine etc but there are some basic things everyone does.

1st of which is always leaving a trailer. This means a link man in almost every room cleared or advantageous location to A) Maximize rear security B) provide a pathway for your buddies in depth to get up to the front through a secure route.

Other things, such as not marking rooms which have been cleared (glow sticks, mine tape, chalk on doors) is another large miss.

A building like a school for example is a company sized objective no matter how good/well trained your troops are. 8 guys just don't have the stamina or man power to securly take an objective the size of anything from RvS etc.

These are large fantasy elements I am willing to live with, this is Rainbow, the best of the best. Honestly, who wants to play as a link man in coop anyway? lol.

Additionally I agree that the AI in Lockdown is a step up from RvS. RvS all the baddies could snap shoot like you wouldn't believe, at least you could sneak up on them and supressors worked.

I maintain my view on the arcade feel (beat the single player running and gunning in a day), many broken items in the game. Multiplayer, options missing etc.

Lets hope this mysterious announcement is something good.

I remember spending many a room clearing senario guarding a suspect in custody or holding a staircase http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think the closest thing these games come to is our active shooter deployment. Since Columbine it isn't good enough to hold a perimeter and wait for SWAT to show up. We now go in and basically hunt the shooters in groups of four as they arrive on scene. It's very small and focused, but I find playing SWAT and R6 games with this style tactics verse more traditional roomclearing tactics feels better.

DayGlow
02-21-2006, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Truju:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DayGlow:
I'm confused. When I run in LD the pips on the redicle move to about halfway across the screen. You have pretty much zero accuracy unless your target is within 5 ft of you, much like real life.

Which isnt an issue when you can run up to 70% of them point blank *then* shoot them </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

well shoot the guy as he runs towards you. If you are suprised at a corner, then that's a valid kill.

FAORonin
02-21-2006, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by Waika:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"><span class="ev_code_GREY">Originally posted by psyborg_666:
We have helmets on (unlike the console bs)</span>
Again, this is a superficial aesthetic consideration -- you may have noticed that while many Tactical Realism Fans found this funny and annoying; they were much more concerned with how the game would play -- and whether 'no helmets' ment other more improtant Tactical Realism design concerns were equally marginalized (as they clearly have been)...
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

GREAT post, but I have to respond to this part. I think the original comment best describes the feelings expressed by many MANY r6 fans when the demo came out.. It was the concept of having this game without helmets (amongst many other things) which led us to believe they were catering to the console players, rather then *we* the hardcore r6 PC users. Making this just a port rather than a game of it's own.

Seeing helmets may be cosmetic, but it's reassuring regardless than the devs at RSE had at least some say in this game bringing it back at least that much closer to it's roots and away from the console.

DayGlow
02-21-2006, 09:36 PM
there's something wrong with this picture http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.parkcitiestactical.com/Embassy2Hi-sm.jpg

psyborg_666
02-22-2006, 12:55 AM
Originally posted by Waika:
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

thanks for taking the time to discuss the points i mentioned, alot of posts were just directed at the thread title alone. i totally see what your saying about action realism and how it differs.


Originally posted by Waika:
Sadly, in Lockdown, that's just not true. I have in the "Challenge" mode sprinted without stopping and completed three missions just to see if it could be done -- it can. In a Tactical Realism game this would not be merely a challenge it would be virtually impossible. The AI would flank and surround you, snipe you, corner you, or just line up and hose you -- not to mention the fact that you wouldn't be able to hit them at all...

yea, but alot of that has to do with the enemy ai, which i think we can all agree needs some serious improvement.

DreamMarine
02-22-2006, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by KungFu_CIA:
I think it is funny how R6 MP players love to tout MP as not a run and gun game when it is the exact same thing as most MP games where people move as fast as they can and shoot everything in sight. Lest I remind the veterans of the MP5K-PDW bug which made Rogue Spear a strafing-fest? Talk about "tactics"...


Yes, unfortunately this is true!

In MP things like run and gun, nading, prefiring at corners etc seem to be much more important than that kind of tactics I expect from "real life" CQB and which I loved from the SP missions in the predecessors of LD. Even if you are awaiting an enemy at a tactically perfect spot, it's pretty sure that at least one of two things will happen to you in MP:

1) you are called a camper, just because you prefer another kind of tactical gameplay (that kind of gameplay you would use in SP most times!!!)

2) you'll get shot by a guy running around the corner although YOU KNEW he was approaching and HE DID NOT.

But well, this seems to be that kind of tactics in almost all MP-games today (RVS, AA, etc.) It's not MY kind of tactics, because it is built mostly on a lot of training time, good reflexes and taking the game not too seriously (otherwise they would much more care about their precious virtual life http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

I would LOVE to see an MP game, where they balanced this out a little bit in favour of a slower and stealthier gameplay. But well, I abandoned this dream long ago! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


These are all tactical elements I don't like or can't afford (training time).

The SP part of the R6 games (and, of course, MP in coop) were totally DIFFERENT from this in the previous R6 games. The kind of tactics, that are most important here, are: caution, slow and silent actions (using the supressor!!!), perfect coordination of your teams and even a kind of 3D geometric situational awareness.

And BELIEVE me, either you learned to be stealthy and cautiously, or you learned to hate the SP missions and moved on to MP.

I will NEVER forget my first takedown in MP COOP: We were two players in a museum. We played together for the very first time. We were hiding behind a kind of statue. There were 3 tangos and 2 kneeing hostages in the small room ahead. It had taken us 10 minutes to get there without beeing seen or heard.

We quickly agreed on a plan. I threw a flashbang into the room and ducked down (to not get blinded myself). When I came up again and rushed around the statue and towards the room, the room was still full of smoke and I panicked a little bit, because I had only one or two more seconds to neutralize the tango I was assigned to. Then I found "my" tango and hit him with a double-tap from my suppressed MP5. It was not before then, that I realized, that my team mate had killed the other two tangos at the same time. The smoke cleared and we saw the picture: 2 living hostages kneeing and whining... and 3 tangos lying dead on the floor. if we had reacted 1 second later, the outcome would have been totally different. OMG, was THAT a great feeling of success.


But this kind of tactics is destroyed in most parts of LD:

- I can't use suppressor and scope at the same time (so that I could carefully neutralize tangos before they ever saw or heard me) http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

- I can't use more than one fire group to position them in tactical important spots to cover certain routes of approach.

- I can't choose between multiple appoaches to the target. This point is VERY FRUSTRATING. That linear map design of LD ist the worst part of all in my opinion.

- The most actions of the tangso in LD are scripted. And they are scripted towards direct confrontation. And they are really AWAITING you... facing the direction you'll be coming. Another VERY FRUSTRATING point.

- You don't have to housekeep with your ammunition or magazins. You can almost shoot as long as you want... and until you finally hit something.

These are the most important things why I agree with most people that LD hast almost entirely lost that kind of "SP tactics". Not to speak of all the new tactical components, UBI should have ADDED or IMPROVED in LD!!!

Of course, MP is also some kind of tactics (as is the gameplay of other FPS), but R6 is famous for that stealthy, challenging and (compared to real life) professional kind of tactics.

Until now, no one did it better than the predecessors of LD. SWAT4 comes close to it, but I always preferred Rainbow Six, Rogue Spear or Raven Shield to other shooters!!! It has been that kind of game, you'll NEVER FORGET about your WHOLE LIFE!!!

And it's a shame!!! A real shame, what UBI did to this series. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

DreamMarine

Chiles4
02-22-2006, 09:34 AM
Great thread - the tactical junkies have come out of the woodwork on this one!

What Waika said seemed to capture this whole discussion to a tee but I'd like to add some thoughts.

There are a countless number of minor game features that when combined, lead a gamer to label a game as "arcade" (e.g. healthpacks, zero recoil, ammo pools, etc.). But in the arcade vs. tactical argument, the one thing that I feel is critical to classifying a game is whether or not I have to think and actually plan as to how I am going to overcome the enemy based on the situation I'm in. Does a game reward for you thinking and planning or does it reward you for having lightning fast reflexes and the ability to quickly gib the alien hordes with your mini-gun? At one end of the spectrum you have Serious Sam and at the other you have SWAT 4. I'd say that most games trend either one way or the other as mixing the two isn't very effective. Whatever the criteria, it seems that most of us can quickly make this judgement simply by the feel of the game. Hence, the quick jump to blast LD as soon as the demo came out. As Waika said, "it's not a tactically realistic game."

Without doubt, the one game attribute that can knock your socks off is incredible AI. With that, even a game using Nerf super-soakers could be amazing. Let's hope that major strides are being made in this area.


yeah, the RVS AI was pretty bad.
Yeah, but the core code of RvS was developed in 2001-2002. Hopefully, things are progressing.


I don't want them to make the game I want. I want them to make the game I never knew I wanted, and have it blow away any preconceptions I might have had.

I'm with ya 100% on that, Tony!

Nomad_381
02-22-2006, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by DreamMarine:
The kind of tactics, that are most important here, are: caution, slow and silent actions (using the supressor!!!)

I dont agree with this, necessarily. Sure there are times when you want slow and silent, but many real world takedown operations are characterized by lightning fast, surprise and overwhelm tactics. Even once you get past surprise, its speed that keeps initiative on your side. After the first engagement, whether using silensors or not, one must assume that the enemy as whole at least knows something is wrong because all it takes is one missed radio check-in to raise a red flag.

One of the problems I think is that, in the RS SP games (the ones I have played), the enemy as a whole doesnt react (nor setup) the way a real enemy would, and so that takes away from the real-world tactics that you would like to use. In the games I have played tangos are spread out more or less evenly throughout the map, with small clusters of 3-4 here or there. I may be wrong, but I imagine in reality there would be a number of perimeter guards and then basically noone between them and the maps strongpoints/chokes, where the enemy can put together a show of force. If the enemy knew you were coming/hears you are there (whether through weapons or radio) everyone of the enemy would either fall back to preplanned strategic ground or would wait, regroup, and try to bring the entire force of their firepower to bear on your team at one time, not stand around spread out thin where they can be taken down one by one.

At the same time I dont know how real they can make it without really changing the nature of the game. I mean, in real life, many operations of this nature take hours to plan, seconds to execute. Who wants to play a 45 second mission, or even a 2-5 min. one?

KungFu_CIA
02-22-2006, 10:48 AM
I think one aspect which is being confused, or used in place of a better term is the main element the original R6 games... And I mean R6, EW, RS/UO etc... Emphasized in SP was mainly STEALTH (I'll talk about MP in a minute).

Nomad_381 brought this up as well.

Yes. It has a realistic damage model.
Yes. It had realistic weapons, locations, etc.

But the one thing which really defined the original games' SP experience was the fact you were rewarded for moving a lot slower and using silenced weapons (most of the time) and basically just getting the drop on the AI before they could head shot you with their uber-autoaim.

That is not to say you couldn't plan out and execute blitz manuevers as moving fast is an integral part of CT and CQB... But realistically, most of the success in the SP portion of the original games was slower movement and stealth-like tactics more than so-called run and gun.

I think this distinction is definitely missing from Lockdown -- And even Raven Shield to an extent -- And obviously, was NEVER really a part of adverserial MP to begin with for obvious reasons.

Someone already said it best in speaking from strictly a realitic perspective, the best modes in all the R6 games which really capture what the series originally tried to portray is the CO-OP modes where people works as "real" teams against an enemy to complete an objective.

Also, I am not saying their is not team work in adverserial, nor am I discounting the fact there is no "skill". I shouldn't have to qualify every little comment I make, but certain posters will take petty pot shots unless I and others don't cater to their own personal definitions of things http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ...

But again, my point -- And something which is definitely missing in Lockdown and part of the reason why I believe it is considered run and gun is the fact stealth is not as important as used to be because the AI is pushovers -- at any setting -- And the fact stealth and slower movement is somehow considered more "tactical" than rushing and blizting?

This is what I meant earlier about how they should not market the R6 series as "tactical" because it has a terrible reputation for being "slow" and "boring" to a lot of gamers outside the series. Therefore, market a game to be "realistic" -- arcade, or simulation -- And it interests people a lot more because gamers like to pride themselves on playing "realistic" games regardless of whether the actual game is realitsic or not (which goes back to the discussion about different types of gamers and what they view and accept as realistic, I.E. Counter-Strike vs. SWAT 4).

And for all you naysayers who will inevitably say marketing R6 as "realistic" vs. "tactical" is just another way to "sell out", or "dumb down" the series...

You win because whatever I and others who are knowledgeable about the realities of the games industry and the business model it currently uses will never be able to say anything which will convince you otherwise...

Because what you want is for UBI and RSE to make an ultra-hardcore CT simulation ("Operation Flashpoint for CQB") without regards to production costs, realistic profit margins and other realities which would preclude making a game of this kind simply because it is what you want because also you think it would just magically make huge profits and revitalize the simulation genre and because you can site games like SWAT 4 and others who did marginally well, but not as well as some of the bigger titles such as Battlefield 2 and others... Which is where UBISoft is currently concentrating on at the moment.

Will this change?

Your guess is as good as mine. No one can honestly say either way at this point in time... Even as bad as Lockdown is.

Our best bet, as fans of realism games, is for smaller dev studios outside the U.S. to realize there is a niche market and fill it because smaller developers and publishers -- especially, outside the U.S. -- Can take more risks and even small(er) profits are considered a success. This can happen inside the U.S. as well, but not as easily given the dominance of the publisher/developer model which UBI and EA have pretty much monopolized.

Muhad
02-22-2006, 10:52 AM
various anti terror games

WHAT "various anti terror games" ?

tonytwotoes
02-22-2006, 11:46 PM
(stealth)


was NEVER really a part of adverserial MP to begin with for obvious reasons.

Ever used a hand held HBS jammer to sneak up on a HBS ***** before taking them out with an mp5sd?

Ever put a false HB puck just out of range of a fixed jammrer to sucker someone into an ambush?

Use the fluid door opening constantly to avoid making noise?

Walk rather than run to limit sound?

Smoke up a doorway to obfuscate your sound while you sixed someone through the other door?

I buy games if I try them and they are good. As I said before, UBI can market their games to the point of flat out lying about them, but it isn't going to make a difference if every reviewer says its a lemon, people cant get the demo to work, or if they get it working, hate it because its a lemon. The reviewers aren't mentioning any of the marketing people's magnificent ideas except to rip on them cause the game sucks.

Battlefield was a good game. Thats why it sold even though it was predominantly multiplayer. Hell, even though I love realistic games, and I knew from the (working) demo that it was arcade gameplay, I still bought it because it was a good game. RvS pulled me back in through word of mouth.

Generation X know that you can't just say somethings cool. Cool is. Lockdown is not cool. There's my ******* marketing plan. Make something cool.

DreamMarine
02-23-2006, 04:05 AM
Originally posted by KungFu_CIA:
This is what I meant earlier about how they should not market the R6 series as "tactical" because it has a terrible reputation for being "slow" and "boring" to a lot of gamers outside the series. Therefore, market a game to be "realistic" -- arcade, or simulation -- And it interests people a lot more because gamers like to pride themselves on playing "realistic" games regardless of whether the actual game is realitsic or not (which goes back to the discussion about different types of gamers and what they view and accept as realistic, I.E. Counter-Strike vs. SWAT 4).


So build on the gameplay of the previous R6 games an market it as "realistic" if this sells better. I'll be happy with that. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



Originally posted by KungFu_CIA:
And for all you naysayers who will inevitably say marketing R6 as "realistic" vs. "tactical" is just another way to "sell out", or "dumb down" the series...

You win because whatever I and others who are knowledgeable about the realities of the games industry and the business model it currently uses will never be able to say anything which will convince you otherwise...


We were not born as "naysayers". We are just very angry and disappointed, because we see our favorite game die directly in front of our eyes. Don't expect, that we won't resist. And if we WOULD say nothing, the decay of R6 just would go on.

I am definately NO "naysayer". But enough is enough. And I am trying to keep my critics constructive.

By the way, I believe, that UBI is a little bit short-sighted in their ideas about marketing. If they continue this direction, they MAYBE will gain big profit in the short term... but ALSO a bad reputation in the long term: People don't buy other UBI products any more... give bad reviews at amazon & co. ... tell their children not to buy UBI products, because they are ****... and so on. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
[/QUOTE]



Originally posted by KungFu_CIA:
Because what you want is for UBI and RSE to make an ultra-hardcore CT simulation ("Operation Flashpoint for CQB") without regards to production costs, realistic profit margins and other realities which would preclude making a game of this kind simply because it is what you want because also you think it would just magically make huge profits and revitalize the simulation genre and because you can site games like SWAT 4 and others who did marginally well, but not as well as some of the bigger titles such as Battlefield 2 and others... Which is where UBISoft is currently concentrating on at the moment.


If I may say that: This is bull****! The most of us are not in ultra-hardcore simulations. Actually, then, probably even I would think it's boring and too time-consuming. Don't think so much in black and white. There is a lot in between.

And concerning marketing: There are so many well selling "trivial" shooters out there (I am searching for a positive term for "arcade") What is ANOTHER one good for??? There is definately also a market for "realistic" shooters (i would still prefer to call it "tactical" ;O) And I repeat: I am NOT talking about an ultra hardcore simulation.


DreamMarine

SODsniper
02-23-2006, 05:08 AM
For me the anger stems, not from watching the RB6 series killed right before my eyes. I would think it is a tad premature to make that assessment. One bad game does not a series kill.

No, for me, the anger comes from being mislead about what LockDown was and was not supposed to be.

Hopefully a lesson has been learned here...


Yea, and hopefully pigs will fly too... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Imparfait
02-23-2006, 02:55 PM
I wish I could return my copy to the store now. Over a week since launch and no fixes for apparent problems, no acknoledgment of bugs.

I'm not sure how it is in the rest of Canada, but here in Ottawa the EBs aren't fans of full refunds for returned items...

SODsniper
02-23-2006, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Imparfait:
I wish I could return my copy to the store now. Over a week since launch and no fixes for apparent problems, no acknoledgment of bugs.


One really has to wonder if UBI has a set policy...

"Under NO circumstances is ANYONE allowed to talk to ANY customer about ANYthing."

Perhaps those who are so fed up with "UBI-bashing" can enlighten us as to why exactly UBI is so silent when it comes to these issues?

I mean, is there a logical and rational reason to remain silent and ignore real customers with real issues??

I cannot think of a one.

lockdown_pwnzzz
02-23-2006, 04:03 PM
ive jammed my floppy drive many times playing lockdown now...

i keep on having an urge to insert quarters into it!

wick1975
02-23-2006, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by lockdown_pwnzzz:
ive jammed my floppy drive many times playing lockdown now...

i keep on having an urge to insert quarters into it!
thats Funny http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Imparfait
02-23-2006, 08:54 PM
lol, jamming quarters. Funny stuff.

I gave LD a week, beat it in a day. The story is bad, AI bad etc, nothing really redeeming there.

The main reason I got this installment was for multiplayer, which as it turns out barely works. I remember for RvS they had patches coming out the ying yang the day after it launched, and the devs were constantly dealing with the community (tweaking and such) during its initial demo stages.

This game has 0 support. If it has support I have no idea, but a week without a peep or a patch is unacceptable. As a paying customer I demand better, but what do I matter.

Anyway, sorry guys. Thought I'd rant a bit. I'm starting to hate leave...

comtedeloach
02-27-2006, 08:13 PM
This is not Rainbow 6, its more like Ghost Recon. I swear I killed 50 bad guys on the first mission. Rainbow 6 is about anti-terrorist operations, where you go assault a building and are up against maybe 10-15 with hostages, not assaulting through a city to get to a bank to assault the bank, and kill everyone you see.
Read the book, and you will get the idea.

sx_amazing
02-27-2006, 09:08 PM
Why is this game an arcade shooter?

1. There is no recoil
2. Only takes 10-15 minutes to master the gameplay.
3. Health bars.
4. Peaking/Crouching is useless when taking out a tango. Rushing is necessary.
5. Linear maps. The environment is one big maze.
6. Bullet count bar.
7. Tangos just crouch or stand there waiting to get killed.
8. Commands are usless.
10. Multiplayer respawning.
11. Mercenaries dress and look like computer geeks.
12. Multiplayer is very fast-paced.
13. Graphics are mediocre and cartoonish.
14. Strategy/tactics are non-existent.
15. Tangos/rainbow can survive several hits.
16. Multiplayers run around like chickens with their heads chopped off.
17. Camping is useless.
18. Taking cover is useless.
19. ammo seems unlimited.
20. scripted gameplay.
21. Element of surprise is non-existent.
22. Stealth movement isn't necessary.
23. Rainbow vs. Merc? More like Rainbow vs. Clones.