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View Full Version : SP, Coop, or Vs?



Epicurus_13
05-24-2005, 09:59 PM
Given how nicely Chaos Theory has balanced thing out, which aspect of the game do you think ubisoft should focus their attention on in terms of what to improve with patches and in future versions?

I vote coop, because coop play is the wave of the future and it's generally better than deathmatch modes because in coop, if someone finds a really effective strategy and becomes an unbeatable player, that makes you want to meet them and seek advice - coop encourages people to perfect their skills and interact without pitting them against each other and promoting the usual unpleasant online deathmatch atmosphere.

Of course I love Vs. Mode a lot too, because it is also a very coop-centered mode, but also because SC multiplayer is my favourite head-to-head multiplayer ever. Spies vs. Mercs - I can't get enough. Hats off to whoever thought of that concept, I'll take a spy bullet for you.

I also love SP, but it has to come in third, I'm afraid, because it doesn't really have the power to keep me coming back and having fun like the other modes. On the other hand, no need to get a friend or an internet connection to enjoy SP, so it's got that going for it!

What do y'all think? Which of the three aspects is your favourite? Of course everyone likes all of them to some extent, but which is you absolute favourite (or least favourite) and why?

Epicurus_13
05-24-2005, 09:59 PM
Given how nicely Chaos Theory has balanced thing out, which aspect of the game do you think ubisoft should focus their attention on in terms of what to improve with patches and in future versions?

I vote coop, because coop play is the wave of the future and it's generally better than deathmatch modes because in coop, if someone finds a really effective strategy and becomes an unbeatable player, that makes you want to meet them and seek advice - coop encourages people to perfect their skills and interact without pitting them against each other and promoting the usual unpleasant online deathmatch atmosphere.

Of course I love Vs. Mode a lot too, because it is also a very coop-centered mode, but also because SC multiplayer is my favourite head-to-head multiplayer ever. Spies vs. Mercs - I can't get enough. Hats off to whoever thought of that concept, I'll take a spy bullet for you.

I also love SP, but it has to come in third, I'm afraid, because it doesn't really have the power to keep me coming back and having fun like the other modes. On the other hand, no need to get a friend or an internet connection to enjoy SP, so it's got that going for it!

What do y'all think? Which of the three aspects is your favourite? Of course everyone likes all of them to some extent, but which is you absolute favourite (or least favourite) and why?

Rbdb1R
05-24-2005, 10:02 PM
single player

because its just so fun

Pennywisdom1188
05-24-2005, 10:08 PM
Yep SP. I have xbox live so i can play VS and coop anytime i want but i still feel that the single palyer is the best aspect of this game. I got it the day of release and i still play atleast one mission of single player almost everyday and if not atleast 3 times a week. If we were to get any new download content (not keeping in mind the coop and Vs maps we know we are getting) i would preffer they all be single player missions, but i know im living in la la land, they are probably going to start concentrating on VS after they make a few more coop maps and be done until Splinter cell 4.

Omega_224
05-24-2005, 10:13 PM
I also have to say Single Player. Of course, my opinion may be biased, since I've never played SvM and only Co-Op on Split Screen. But still. Single Player, then Co-Op, and I can't say anything about SvM.

Desert Hawk
05-24-2005, 10:18 PM
Single player for me. No patches, glitchers, cheaters or hackers, and not to mention the AI is fun to run circles around. Co-op would come second. It emphasizes team work and stealth, not just a free for all.

rikakiah
05-24-2005, 11:45 PM
Which needs the most improvement/updating?

-Single player: Very solid--could use a bit more non-linearity.

-VS: Very solid IF you play with good people. Particularly with all the improvements in CT. The biggest thing that needs improving here are the players.

-Coop: This would get my vote, if simply because it's too short. I agree with Epi's opinion of coop--it should be developed to its fullest potential.

I think in future releases, they'll be fine if they continue focussing the game towards the most realistic stealth game possible, in all three game modes.

DarKA55ASSIN
05-25-2005, 06:35 AM
sp->coop->versus and btw versus is last because its just too **** boring now,if it had more moves or attacks or wot ever u wana call it,it would be alot better

Terrax213
05-25-2005, 08:59 AM
Overall favorite mode: Singleplayer, because that's the only mode the original SC had, which is overall my favorite SC of the 3. I thought they made an honest improvement overall from SC to SC:CT, and expect SC4's singleplayer to have an even better improvement since it's being developed on next gen's consoles.

I got burnt out hearing and reading about the SvM before Pandora Tomorrow even came out, and have never had any interest whatsoever to play it, so I can't comment on its improvements, nor do I care if it gets any improvements in the future. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The co-op is great fun .. probably even better over XBL which I dont have, so thus far I've only played splitscreen, but is still friggin sweet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif CT was the first foray into a cooperative mode, so most certainly they'll improve on the ideas they put into it, which I thought were to be all dam.n good ideas to begin with http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MentalMars
05-25-2005, 09:05 AM
Versus Mode Kicks ***

A lot of stratgy and planning
and bringing it too a good end.
being able to beat another player
(by being smarter :P )

BiG_FaT_SpErM
05-25-2005, 10:11 AM
Single Player by far!

Mainly because i dont have live or another contorller so cant play Coop or Versus, but still in single player YOU are in control of what YOU do and no one else can p*ss you off (except the AI maybe, but they can be pretty stupid a lot of the time)

HardToExist
05-25-2005, 11:12 AM
I play Versus the most because it's, well, fun.

Epicurus_13
05-25-2005, 04:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MentalMars:
Versus Mode Kicks ***

A lot of stratgy and planning
and bringing it too a good end.
being able to beat another player
(by being smarter :P ) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, Vs. mode in SC is better than most other games because in general, a more intelligent player will do better. teamwork, tactics, and planning are the name of the game. Twitch factor is just an afterthought, compared to planning routes, laying clever traps, and anticipating your opponent's moves.

Wow, I'm really surprised that so many people like SP the most! It's always been in third place for me - I mean, don't get me wrong, I love SP, but the versus mode and coop are the multiplayer evolutions of the SP formula - I think that these modes offer the most potential. (You can get hooked on SC versus - I got bored of Halo 2, but I still itch for my gas mask and mines when I hear about Splinter Cell...)

routeone
05-26-2005, 07:58 PM
It has to be Vs, now I've beaten single player I have no urge to go back and my experiences of the coop have been horrible.

Lord_Kruton
05-27-2005, 02:42 PM
Single player is the best for me because it's a tried and true game that has been done two times before, and IMO this single player experience is the best yet. The characters in single player - especially Sam - make it very interesting.

Versus mode is second best for me because it too has been around for a while, and while it was good to begin with, CT made some great improvements on it. Hats off to whoever thought of that mode.

Coop is an awesome mode, as it is essentially single player with another person. Even with all its problems, it's fun enough to be right up there with versus in my book. When my partner is competent, we have some great times sneaking through the level and accomplishing the objectives efficiently, and even when my partner is incompetent, I still love running through the level on normal and knifing every guard that gets in my way, just as I do in single player. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/icon_twisted.gif It would be my favorite mode if:

a) There were more maps, and
b) Less glitches, disconnects, and lag.

Hopefully Ubi will be able to fix that with a patch and with the two upcoming DLC maps. Coop can only get better, and if they keep it in SC4, I think it has the potential to surpass versus and maybe even single player.

I like all three modes, but I have to say:

SP&gt;VS=COOP

Naruto07
05-29-2005, 09:19 AM
Versus is the best gamemode. First of you are playing other people and that means more skill will be needed, unless they are new, furthermore it is much more challenging to go up against someone than the AI who is not very clever most of the time. Secondly, Versus Mode offers way more replay value than coop, cause after you clear coop say 3-4 times, do you think you will really go back and play it? However with versus mode, regardless of the map you are on as long as you are having fun and playing people that pushes your speed and reflexes to the next level you can play it all day. Personally coop is a great concept and is alright, but it has no where the speed and reflexes versus mode requires.

YH-
05-29-2005, 04:07 PM
1. Coop: I can't get enough of it, even with limited levels.
2. Vs.: I've only recently discovered how much fun this is, and I would love to see it improved.
3. SP: It may be 3rd, but it's pretty close and I would also want to see improvements/additions to the single player.

XyZspineZyX
05-29-2005, 06:26 PM
I wonder how many of these people even read the original post?http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
As to the original question of what Ubi should focus first on improving:
1. coop
2. SvM
3. SP

rikakiah
05-29-2005, 10:14 PM
At least 2...4 tops. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Epicurus_13
05-29-2005, 10:43 PM
Oh hello everyone, my my, what a lovely day, I wonder if anyone just got a cool new avatar? Hmmm...

In conclusion, coop first, versus a VERY close second, and what the heck does "SP" stand for? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

rikakiah
05-29-2005, 10:59 PM
Ooh ooh! New avatar--lemme guess. Lemme, lemme, lemme! Ummm...S7N? Oh, no--wait! Rhoulette--it's Rhoulette, isn't it?!

Epicurus_13
05-29-2005, 11:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rikakiah:
Ooh ooh! New avatar--lemme guess. Lemme, lemme, lemme! Ummm...S7N? Oh, no--wait! Rhoulette--it's Rhoulette, isn't it?! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It sure is! yay for Rhoulette!

Actually, I just noticed that my new avatar appears in all of my posts, even the older ones, so that post was perhaps a tad pointless.

I was also thinking of using Calvin (and if you need to know which Calvin I mean, shame on you) - what do you think?

Oh, right, on-topic, yes, yes, wouldn't want to go off-topic and spam my own thread, I suppose.

Um, Versus mode needs... more... ah...


hmmm...


needs more special moves. How about a spy athletic move where they brace themselves in a corner? (very high up) - this would be realistic and usable in every map in tons of places while being obvious enough not to be overused. good for SP too (and it's in the SC novel, briefly!)

So, that's an improvement, right? I'm on-topic, now leave me alone with my whiskey.

rikakiah
05-29-2005, 11:13 PM
First, avatar looks great. You almost inspired me to make my own...before I realized I had no place to host it. Don't really have time anyway...

Second, the corner thing would be a great idea. Sort of like a variation of the split jump (which, is that/has that ever been in the SvM?). However, it would probably just encourage aggro-snipers, but everything's gonna be abused anyway, so why not throw it in so normal players can have some fun.

Third, may I just say one of your more recent posts brought tears to my eyes (I think you can guess which one). By far your best post yet--thank you for the entertainment.

Epicurus_13
05-29-2005, 11:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rikakiah:
First, avatar looks great. You almost inspired me to make my own...before I realized I had no place to host it. Don't really have time anyway...

Second, the corner thing would be a great idea. Sort of like a variation of the split jump (which, is that/has that ever been in the SvM?). However, it would probably just encourage aggro-snipers, but everything's gonna be abused anyway, so why not throw it in so normal players can have some fun.

Third, may I just say one of your more recent posts brought tears to my eyes (I think you can guess which one). By far your best post yet--thank you for the entertainment. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, thanks for the positive feedback, I really like your posts as well - yours was wonderful in its brevity, so I thought I'd go on a rant. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Anyway, I didn't make my avatar, it's lifted right off of the interactive quictime VR movie for merc equipment on the offical Chaos Theory site - just a simple screen capture of copyrighted material, and voila! As for hosting, well, if you can somehow send me the file, my GF will be happy to host it for you on her photobucket account (my avatar's filesize is 2kb - not about to put anyone over their storage limit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, PM me if interested.



Yeah, regarding the corner-jump: I think it would be good as a last-resort hiding place in open areas, and also a good way to take out a merc who always backs into a corner in a fight - just have your pal cloaked in the corner above! It would have to be fairly high up in order not to be insanely obvious (like the split jump), limiting the number of rooms in which it could be used, but still. Plus, it probably wouldn't even be a huge amount of work to code and animate, for a future game. Ubisoft, you digging this?

BiG_FaT_SpErM
05-30-2005, 05:29 AM
That looks like a coll idea, tho it would be insanely hard to do, the split jump is hard enough but to do it on a corner? BTW i mean realistically not, that its hard to pull off in the game.

Also rikakiah if you want a place to host images then ImageShack (http://www.imageshack.us/) is a perfect place and its free!

Epicurus_13
05-30-2005, 10:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BiG_FaT_SpErM:
That looks like a coll idea, tho it would be insanely hard to do, the split jump is hard enough but to do it on a corner? BTW i mean realistically not, that its hard to pull off in the game.

Also rikakiah if you want a place to host images then ImageShack (http://www.imageshack.us/) is a perfect place and its free! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that the split jump is way too clumsy to do in-game. I don't really understand why ubisoft didn't just make it the same as in single-player, with an automatic success... I predict that in SC4 this will have changed, and the corner move could be done simply. (Fr'instance, the spy simply walks into a corner and holds forward and "Y" into the corner, starting a bounce-bounce-plant animation and getting you into position. You can cancel it by releasing "Y" during the setup, or of course by pressing "B" once you're fully up, like the split jump, kinda.

samfisher425
05-30-2005, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Desert Hawk:
Single player for me. No patches, glitchers, cheaters or hackers, and not to mention the AI is fun to run circles around. Co-op would come second. It emphasizes team work and stealth, not just a free for all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you can still be sneaky and use team work, dont ever forget that in the versus mode. Im very sneaky and use sticky cams and spy bullets and such very effective. Camo is more ussfull than many people think, you cant just run around in the open but in a little shadow its very effective for stealth grabs.

shadow_ninja961
05-30-2005, 03:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Terrax213:
Overall favorite mode: Singleplayer, because that's the only mode the original SC had, which is overall my favorite SC of the 3. I thought they made an honest improvement overall from SC to SC:CT, and expect SC4's singleplayer to have an even better improvement since it's being developed on next gen's consoles.

I got burnt out hearing and reading about the SvM before Pandora Tomorrow even came out, and have never had any interest whatsoever to play it, so I can't comment on its improvements, nor do I care if it gets any improvements in the future. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The co-op is great fun .. probably even better over XBL which I dont have, so thus far I've only played splitscreen, but is still friggin sweet http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif CT was the first foray into a cooperative mode, so most certainly they'll improve on the ideas they put into it, which I thought were to be all dam.n good ideas to begin with http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

i agree with you tearrax213,

the original splinter cell is still my favorite too,and i also don't have or plan on getting XBL. i would like them to possibly concentrate more on the single player game and maybe the co-op too. it would be cool if UBIsoft would do a remake of Splinter Cell with the Chaos Theory engine,binoculars,and gadgets but with updated and longer missions. have the same levels but with alternate paths and the new A.I.

i think they could make a game designed like virtual hydlide from Sega Saturn. where there were billions of worlds to play in depending on the password used.in virtual hydlide the layout of the land would change if you used a different password and also each dungeon,cavern,castle and ruin layout would change too. the objectives stayed the same but since you could have eveything else change,it was like playing a new game everytime.

imagine a splinter cell game like that. if you use the same password,then everything stays the same. but if you change the password,then the objectives stayed the same but the streets,buildings,and pathways would be different(I.E. in different locations,randomly re-arranged). that would have tremendous replay value.

Epicurus_13
05-30-2005, 04:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shadow_ninja961:

the original splinter cell is still my favorite too,and i also don't have or plan on getting XBL. i would like them to possibly concentrate more on the single player game and maybe the co-op too. it would be cool if UBIsoft would do a remake of Splinter Cell with the Chaos Theory engine,binoculars,and gadgets but with updated and longer missions. have the same levels but with alternate paths and the new A.I.

i think they could make a game designed like virtual hydlide from Sega Saturn. where there were billions of worlds to play in depending on the password used.in virtual hydlide the layout of the land would change if you used a different password and also each dungeon,cavern,castle and ruin layout would change too. the objectives stayed the same but since you could have eveything else change,it was like playing a new game everytime.

imagine a splinter cell game like that. if you use the same password,then everything stays the same. but if you change the password,then the objectives stayed the same but the streets,buildings,and pathways would be different(I.E. in different locations,randomly re-arranged). that would have tremendous replay value. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I used to feel the same way you do, wishing that more developpers would stop catering so much to the multiplayer aspects of games - I don't want to shell out eight dollars a month in order to play unlimited instant multiplayer with people around the globe! Make an extra SP level instead! But having tried out XBL, I can say that I've changed my mind. Multiplayer is simply in many ways worlds ahead of single player, even SP at its best. Basically infinite replay value is much simpler than writing a diablo-esque random world generator, especially for a stealth action game like SC. Cool idea, but probably insanely difficult to implement without making the game nonsensical.

Anyway, try Xbox live for a few weeks and see if you still feel that you don't like it. For me, XBL was so cool I often stayed up late at night playing game after game, having a great time and kickin' it old skool.

BiG_FaT_SpErM
05-30-2005, 04:26 PM
I dont play Multiplayer on my Xbox cause i cant but i have played it on many PC games e.g. Call Of Duty and the replay value of an online game i massive compared to single player.

Epicurus_13
05-30-2005, 04:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BiG_FaT_SpErM:
I dont play Multiplayer on my Xbox cause i cant but i have played it on many PC games e.g. Call Of Duty and the replay value of an online game i massive compared to single player. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I misread this the first time, now I agree wholeheartedly with you: Like it or not, Multiplayer IS important, and generally WAY more exciting than SP. There's just no getting around it at this point. So if you are living in an ivory tower of non-online play, I would really recommend breaking out. It *really* IS worth it.

shadow_ninja961
05-30-2005, 07:14 PM
originaly posted by epicurus_13,

Anyway, try Xbox live for a few weeks and see if you still feel that you don't like it. For me, XBL was so cool I often stayed up late at night playing game after game, having a great time and kickin' it old skool.

don't get me wrong,i would love trying SvM online but i've read far too many stories on here and other forums of people cheating and also quitting the game if they are losing.
i'm not sure how it all works online since i've never been but i don't like the idea of spending my money to play honestly and have to put up with dishonesty. sure,it may be inevitable to encounter dishonest people,but i would rather spend my money on a sure thing(like singleplayer),than put up with the other.

Epicurus_13
05-30-2005, 07:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by shadow_ninja961:
originaly posted by epicurus_13,

Anyway, try Xbox live for a few weeks and see if you still feel that you don't like it. For me, XBL was so cool I often stayed up late at night playing game after game, having a great time and kickin' it old skool.

don't get me wrong,i would love trying SvM online but i've read far too many stories on here and other forums of people cheating and also quitting the game if they are losing.
i'm not sure how it all works online since i've never been but i don't like the idea of spending my money to play honestly and have to put up with dishonesty. sure,it may be inevitable to encounter dishonest people,but i would rather spend my money on a sure thing(like singleplayer),than put up with the other. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't let the bad stories discourage you - this is much like people telling stories about the jerk they ran into while they were driving to work.

Sure, people tell bad stories about driving, but that doesn't mean you're going to walk everywhere if you have the choice, does it?

Even if you happen to come upon a room full of idiots, you can still have a fun game, and frankly, it doesn't happen as often as you'd think. Again, I felt the same way you do now, but you just have to try it.

onefortyseven
05-30-2005, 07:27 PM
Yeah, with chaos theory online you tend to stumble across people who you will play with all the time, so much so that you will know what the other guy is doing all the time, sometimes before he does. It's definately worth a try, since you can get a two month free trial with most new games.

shadow_ninja961
05-30-2005, 07:49 PM
i don't see what the big push for online gaming is. probably because i don't do it. but,home video gaming all started as single player games,not online. i have a SNK NEO-GEO cartridge system that allows two players on every game simultaneously,except for a few games where you could play two players but each had to take their turn as in viewpoint and magician lord. also i had an odyssey 2 at one point in the 80's and then a sega master system with the 3-D LCD glasses, a genesis,a saturn and a dreamcast before getting an Xbox. all those others(with exception of dreamcast,but the online never amounted to much) were single player home video game systems.

i think that online gaming is good for those who like it but people who like it shouldn't try pushing it on others so much.

besides i don't know anyone else who has an Xbox,let alone XBL, so i would have to go through a lot of unwanted trial and error just to find descent people to play with,and chances are with the hours i work,everyone else would be working when i'm off.

i'll stick with the home experiance for now.
i have NEO-GEO tournaments all the time on weekends and that is with people that i can actually see and talk to with my real voice.(as opposed to what i've heard of people online changing their voices)

i think that if the single player home versions of games are done away with in favor of all online games,it will be a very sad day in the world of video games for us all.don't forget your roots.

long live the glory days.

Epicurus_13
05-30-2005, 08:36 PM
I know what you're trying to say, Ninja, and I love playing splitscreen a lot myself. The best of all is playing online with a friend on the same machine, like Halo 2 - play in a team with up to three of your friends against all comers. It's great fun.
Also, only about 1% of people that I have run into on XBL were using voice masks, and they usually only had them on because they put them on as a joke and then forgot about it.

Additionally, while many classic mid-generation games are single player, may I remind you that most of the first popular games were multiplayer-oriented, like pong and all the fun old Atari games, etc. Online gaming is just a way of making the two-player splitscreen experience better than ever.

Anyway, my explanation doesn't appear to be convincing you, so all I can do is reccommend that you somehow just give Xbox Live a try for a week or something, somehow, and see how much fun you're having with it - you've got nothing to lose, and believe, me, there's a lot to be gained.

rikakiah
05-31-2005, 12:11 AM
"Don't let the bad stories discourage you - this is much like people telling stories about the jerk they ran into while they were driving to work."

That's exactly true. Trouble is, it's more like driving to work in New York City than, say, Topeka, KS... Good games can be found, it just seems to me that unless you set something up with known friends, your odds of getting a great game are limited.

Epicurus_13
05-31-2005, 12:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rikakiah:
"Don't let the bad stories discourage you - this is much like people telling stories about the jerk they ran into while they were driving to work."

That's exactly true. Trouble is, it's more like driving to work in New York City than, say, Topeka, KS... Good games can be found, it just seems to me that unless you set something up with known friends, your odds of getting a great game are limited. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Man you have a different view of Topeka than I do; when I was in Topeka, I got rear-ended by so many jerks that I thought I was a sorority girl!

BAM!