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View Full Version : What skills do you want to fix and how?



PhoenixReborn06
09-13-2007, 06:52 PM
I was playing as the Warlock today on the map beltway and my hero Yrbeth started with dark magic.

She kept getting offered dark renewal the description of which reads "should it happen that any spell is resisted by the target the hero gains back all mana spent to cast that spell".

The problem is that the warlocks spells can not be resisted. Utterly useless skill. So the warlock definitely needs a better tertiary dark skill.

Some other skills to look at might be elemental balance, which is kind of fun, but I rarely take it since no one uses summon elemental.

Arcane intuition must allow you to learn from your own creatures otherwise it is useless.

Rant over.

PhoenixReborn06
09-13-2007, 06:52 PM
I was playing as the Warlock today on the map beltway and my hero Yrbeth started with dark magic.

She kept getting offered dark renewal the description of which reads "should it happen that any spell is resisted by the target the hero gains back all mana spent to cast that spell".

The problem is that the warlocks spells can not be resisted. Utterly useless skill. So the warlock definitely needs a better tertiary dark skill.

Some other skills to look at might be elemental balance, which is kind of fun, but I rarely take it since no one uses summon elemental.

Arcane intuition must allow you to learn from your own creatures otherwise it is useless.

Rant over.

Moragauth
09-13-2007, 07:07 PM
Skills I want revised:

-Luck. I have written here before that I think it is a silly concept. Instead, what Luck is is altering variables by training and magic. As such, it should be broken up and subsumed under existing skills (e.g. Warlock's Luck under Sorcery for the Warlock, Soldier's Luck under Offence etc.) Luck bonuses should only be gained via artifacts and special locations.

-Destruction. Revise how spells do damage.

-Enlightenment. Make it affect unit Mana.

-Sorcery. Make Counterspell be based on the user's Spellpower and/or Knowledge and levels. Make it affect caster unit spellpower. Include more abilities to deal with anti-magic.

-Dark/Light Magic. Remove 50% speed reduction for mass spells, allow them only to be affected by Sorcery.

smith-b-d
09-13-2007, 07:13 PM
- Exorcism: Totally useless skill unless you are playing against inferno.

- Last stand: Useless.

- Defense: defense percentage is too small, +10% defense isn't going to help a unit with 0 defense :P , should be +1,2&3 respectively defense instead.

- Attack: Same thing again, should be +1,2&3 rather than a percentage.

edit:
i think i might have misunderstood what last stand does, could somebody please explain it for me?

PhoenixReborn06
09-13-2007, 09:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by smith-b-d:
- Last stand: Useless.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. Whoops just read your edit.

"A unit that is killed instead survives with 1 hp."

It's useful because it allows your hero another action.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
-Enlightenment. Make it affect unit Mana.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why, because experience bonus is overpowered? You mean instead of experience bonus? Affecting unit mana would get crazy. 8 million meteor showers. The quasit will do this also.

The other changes you guys have suggested may have merit. The mass spell thing is annoying but I'm used to it now.

smith-b-d
09-13-2007, 10:01 PM
- Heroes ultimate ability unlocked by having expert level in skill rather than it requiring abilities from all different skills. E.g. Unstoppable charge unlocked by Expert counterstrike.

PhoenixReborn06
09-13-2007, 10:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by smith-b-d:
- Heroes ultimate ability unlocked by having expert level </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well it would certainly make creeping easier for inferno. That's what two level ups to get to expert and then a third to pick it. I must be misunderstanding?

I hear they'll be making it so you only 3 skill trees instead of 4 as it currently is, so you'd be looking at levels 19-23 if you choose that path. For tribes anyway, don't know about the originals.

smith-b-d
09-13-2007, 10:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhoenixReborn06:
Well it would certainly make creeping easier for inferno. That's what two level ups to get to expert and then a third to pick it. I must be misunderstanding? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Correct. Okay, so on second thoughts its not that good of a idea, i was thinking more from haven useless ability point of view... having it require ultimate skill(pendant of mastery + expert level) might be a better solution. Considering how rare pendants of mastery are.

I would like their ultimate abilities to be more accessible without heroes having to have any particular skill & abilities build.

noswej
09-13-2007, 10:39 PM
i didnt really think they were going to change the existing skill trees of the teams, but i may be wrong.

As far as last stand goes, its really good, early it can save alot of your top troops deaths, and late, it can give your hero that last edge needed to win.

making the ultimates require only 3 skills will be highly beneficial, because as of yet ive gotten the ultimate only once(!!!) not including when you auto get it in one of the campaigns.

in terms of specific skills, could they fix the issue in the dungeon defence strand? it is the only one in the game where you have to choose between getting the 2 "team specific" abilities, and i dont like that. I mean not unless they were going to make it like that for other skills to, which i would also rather they didnt do. Stick with what the norm is, you pick the prerequisite skill, then the 1st special, then the 2nd, none of this either/or kind of skills!


I must agree about the elemental balance ability. even though its very "cool" and unique, it just wont get used. on the other hand the
fire warriors" ability is AWESOME! in case anyone hasnt gotten it, have a go. helps a lot for inferno early on.

instead of elemental balance, i maintain it should be fire mine balance http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif cause that would get used a WHOLE LOT! :P

ImperialDane
09-14-2007, 03:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> -Luck. I have written here before that I think it is a silly concept. Instead, what Luck is is altering variables by training and magic. As such, it should be broken up and subsumed under existing skills (e.g. Warlock's Luck under Sorcery for the Warlock, Soldier's Luck under Offence etc.) Luck bonuses should only be gained via artifacts and special locations.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not this again http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> - Heroes ultimate ability unlocked by having expert level in skill rather than it requiring abilities from all different skills. E.g. Unstoppable charge unlocked by Expert counterstrike. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can't remember where, but i do believe that will be taken care of in the expansion actually. Of course it might have been old or wrong, but i do believe it will be fixed in tribes.

Also it would be nice if recruitment didn't require my hero to be in town, as i tend to go with one hero for most things and one for ferrying troops when the maps are a bit large, which really leaves recruiment a bit pointless since i don't have the time to go back to the town.

Moragauth
09-14-2007, 05:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhoenixReborn06:
Why, because experience bonus is overpowered? You mean instead of experience bonus? Affecting unit mana would get crazy. 8 million meteor showers. The quasit will do this also. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I actually shouldnt've included the unit suggestions under the skills. What I meant was something like +1 mana / 5 knowledge, i.e. minor bonuses conferred to spellcasting units by the Knowledge stat, much like the Attack stat affects unit attack. Spellpower could affect unit spellcaster power somewhat. But this isn't a skill specific suggestion.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-14-2007, 07:59 AM
Yes, they are going to be changing the skill requirements for the ultimate abilities. They are making it easier to acquire. How....I don't know yet. But DEFINITELY not as easy as SmithBD suggested. Yikes.

PhoenixReborn06
09-14-2007, 09:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noswej:
i didnt really think they were going to change the existing skill trees of the teams, but i may be wrong.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

They better fix it for all versions of the game because right now Dungeon esentially has only secondary dark skills. This a basic oversight in the core gameplay.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
instead of elemental balance, i maintain it should be fire mine balance http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif cause that would get used a WHOLE LOT! :P </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tee hee, that's fun. Might make the knight go for summoning.

ImperialDane
09-14-2007, 09:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Yes, they are going to be changing the skill requirements for the ultimate abilities. They are making it easier to acquire. How....I don't know yet. But DEFINITELY not as easy as SmithBD suggested. Yikes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad i wasn't wrong then. Perhaps just having 3-4 skills instead ?

PhoenixReborn06
09-14-2007, 10:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I can give some things about the skills tree,it will change almost completely,for example,not only dungeon can learn warlock's luck,and the ultimate skills will be more accessible.About Level 20. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is from a poster on age of heroes. This tallies with what I said earlier in the thread.

Elodin
09-14-2007, 11:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Yes, they are going to be changing the skill requirements for the ultimate abilities. They are making it easier to acquire. How....I don't know yet. But DEFINITELY not as easy as SmithBD suggested. Yikes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is good news. I hope skill setup is so that no heroe has no shot at getting it.

Here are a few things I would like to see change in addidtion to what others listed:

1) Mentoring is overpowered. This is fine for single player but not for multi. Get rid of skill entirely and replace with new skill.

2)Adjust starting skills/specialties of hereos to they are more balanced.

3)Graduate/Wizard Reward: The stat bonus is fine but gold bonus is laughable. Change it to be dependant on week or give spell instead (I prefer spell.)Secrets of destruction is much better than these at the moment.

4)Elemental Balance: Make summon elemental worthwhile to cast and this will be ok.

5)Guardian Angel: This is fine for single player but bad idea for multi. Maybe make it so this skill gives a small bonus to angels in the army.

6)Tear of Asha vision: grail is not available on most maps so this usually worthless but player still forced to take it for other skils.

7)Dark Revelation: I don't like to skip an ability to level up.

8)Make tremors do damage to towers also.

9)Eratic Mana: The wizard does not need 2 skills to reduce mana cost. He already have quite high mana. Change it so it affects cost of enemy spells.

10) Dark Renewal(for wizard): Again, wizard have no mana problem. This useless to him.

11)Refined Mana (wizard path): This would go good with archmage, but is much to hard and unlikely to get for wizard.

12)Artificer: Make level 1 miniartifacts free for wizard to make if he has expert artificer so wizard can use his racial ability on all maps. So also gives some value to having to pump aritficer early to avoid junk skills.

13) Please give djinn some loving.

Elodin
09-14-2007, 11:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhoenixReborn06:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I can give some things about the skills tree,it will change almost completely,for example,not only dungeon can learn warlock's luck,and the ultimate skills will be more accessible.About Level 20. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is from a poster on age of heroes. This tallies with what I said earlier in the thread. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was bad move by Nival on warlock luck available to all factions. Now Necro will be even more overpowered than ever. They have free troops, high spell power, infinite mana and now devastating offensive spells.

Xenofex_086
09-14-2007, 12:00 PM
Corpse Explosion of whatever its name was. Hell, does anyone use Consume Corpse in the first place? And even if there's such person - for Corpse Explosion you need a corpse and adjanced enemy creature - and it might not work even then. Totally useless skill.
Mark of the Necromancer - this is an infinite source of spell points and overpowered too. At least make it harder to obtain...

nevermindspy
09-14-2007, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
Corpse Explosion of whatever its name was. Hell, does anyone use Consume Corpse in the first place? And even if there's such person - for Corpse Explosion you need a corpse and adjanced enemy creature - and it might not work even then. Totally useless skill.
Mark of the Necromancer - this is an infinite source of spell points and overpowered too. At least make it harder to obtain... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Consume corpse is a GREAT skill (one of the best in the game actually) anyone that don't use it greatly reduce his game , In anyway.. yes i agree corpse explosion is one of the most useless skills in the game , If it would only do a descent amount of damage then it could be usefull but as it is now is almost never worth taking..
Yes i agree mark of the necromancer is a highly overpowered skill and is probably the reason why still necro are overpowered compared to all other races...!

Inferno015
09-14-2007, 01:53 PM
There should be other ways to get the Master level ability. Not just via the Pendant of Mastery. Maybe once all your slots are filled or you have 5 expert level skills or something of sort. And if that is changed, the Pendant of Mastery should be changed to have a weaker secondary effect (raise a stat maybe)

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-14-2007, 03:43 PM
In regards to artificer, there will be a modest change to it. No more returning to town to refresh for higher knowledge stat...it grows with you (at least last I heard...it's possible it's changed)

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-14-2007, 03:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
Corpse Explosion of whatever its name was. Hell, does anyone use Consume Corpse in the first place? And even if there's such person - for Corpse Explosion you need a corpse and adjanced enemy creature - and it might not work even then. Totally useless skill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you're not using consume corpse, then it's rather obvious that you're also not using the hellfire skills either. Those skills do quite a bit more damage (fire damage) but it drains your mana fairly quickly. Consume corpse off-sets hellfire and then some.

And while I agree corpse explosion is pretty weak...it IS fun as hell to use. :O)

Elodin
09-14-2007, 04:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
In regards to artificer, there will be a modest change to it. No more returning to town to refresh for higher knowledge stat...it grows with you (at least last I heard...it's possible it's changed) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be nice change. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Although it might prevent using knowledge artifacts as buffs for the skill and using different artifacts in the field depending on how it is implemented. Still though even if knowledge artifact buffing is lost it would be good change.

Moragauth
09-14-2007, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhoenixReborn06:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
I can give some things about the skills tree,it will change almost completely,for example,not only dungeon can learn warlock's luck,and the ultimate skills will be more accessible.About Level 20. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is from a poster on age of heroes. This tallies with what I said earlier in the thread. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This was bad move by Nival on warlock luck available to all factions. Now Necro will be even more overpowered than ever. They have free troops, high spell power, infinite mana and now devastating offensive spells. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, this really irritates me. Warlock's Luck was Dungeon's unique skill.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-14-2007, 05:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moragauth:
I agree, this really irritates me. Warlock's Luck was Dungeon's unique skill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And here I was thinking it was irresistable magic and elemental chains. Even with other factions having warlock's luck, they're still the elite damage casters.

While Necro will have excellent spell power too, they don't specialize in Destructive so it shouldn't be game breaking. I'd also think that while each faction 'could' get it, it won't be optimum for many.

Elodin
09-14-2007, 05:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moragauth:
I agree, this really irritates me. Warlock's Luck was Dungeon's unique skill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And here I was thinking it was irresistable magic and elemental chains. Even with other factions having warlock's luck, they're still the elite damage casters.

While Necro will have excellent spell power too, they don't specialize in Destructive so it shouldn't be game breaking. I'd also think that while each faction 'could' get it, it won't be optimum for many. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is true that they could make path very complicated for other factions to get(like refined mana for wizard.) But if they don't make it require many less than optimal skills it will be very imbalanced for necro.

I think the factions most interest would be warlock, necro, and academy. Possibly Sylvan if warlock's luck works for imbue ballista as well.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-14-2007, 07:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
It is true that they could make path very complicated for other factions to get(like refined mana for wizard.) But if they don't make it require many less than optimal skills it will be very imbalanced for necro.

I think the factions most interest would be warlock, necro, and academy. Possibly Sylvan if warlock's luck works for imbue ballista as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Imbalanced for necro? You really think so? They've got only an 8% chance of getting destruction and only levels 1-3 possibly in the guild. I guess it's possible it could get imbalanced but it will really depend on how hard it'll be to get it AND you've got to consider what they'll have to give up to select it. I'll hold off on making an opinion yet on that one.

As for Sylvan with imbue ballista...you know, I've tried over and over again to get war machines, imbue ballista, triple ballista & flaming arrows since I first got this game. It seemed like a really fun combo to try out. And wouldn't you know it, I finally got it today. I saw that thread that got bumped up about "disputed island on heroic" and it got me interested. Fun map and a really fun combo. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif However, War Machines is hard as hell to get with Sylvan, so I don't see warlock's luck/imbue ballista being much of a concern.

smith-b-d
09-14-2007, 09:55 PM
- I would like skills that open up new choices, to display the choices they open up before you pick them. For e.g. Scholar opens up Graduate, but you can never know this in game unless you either look at the skill wheel or have picked Scholar before.

PhoenixReborn06
09-14-2007, 10:12 PM
Careful guys, it was never said that every faction would get warlocks luck only that it would not be exclusive.

Personally I saw it as only wizard also getting it but I don't actually know.

I support making summon elemental more worthwhile. That would fix elemental balance.

Totally agree with smith-bd's post, the skill wheel should be available at level up to look at.

Elodin
09-15-2007, 12:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhoenixReborn06:
Totally agree with smith-bd's post, the skill wheel should be available at level up to look at. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I suppose the fan who make the skill wheel couldn't figure how to get it on level up screen though he did make mod to put it in game.

I imagine that Nival/Ubi is afraid to put it in game officially though if the one who made skill wheel game them permission I don't know what the problem would be of them doing so. It would certainly be useful.

noswej
09-15-2007, 01:04 AM
ok well can anyone think of a good change that would make summon elementals better, or more balanced?

on another note, can someone link me to somehitng that explains the exact ratio of knowledge to artificer power!?! i swear once i saw an arti that gave damage bonus, but i never saw it again even though ive tried

smith-b-d
09-15-2007, 01:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noswej:
ok well can anyone think of a good change that would make summon elementals better, or more balanced? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Been able to choose where to summon them too would be good.

noswej
09-15-2007, 03:05 AM
couldn it be fixed by a simple cost reduction, i mean it used to cost a lot less before patches and then i kind of thought it was too good. or is the actual mechanics or effect of the spell that people dont like&gt;!?

Elodin
09-15-2007, 03:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by noswej:
ok well can anyone think of a good change that would make summon elementals better, or more balanced?

on another note, can someone link me to somehitng that explains the exact ratio of knowledge to artificer power!?! i swear once i saw an arti that gave damage bonus, but i never saw it again even though ive tried </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mini artifact information is in the downloadable manual. Look in table of contents under racial ability.

http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/game_manuals.shtml


Summon elementals was good when it was stackable. There have been number of suggestions to improve it since spell was changed in patches.

Some possibilities for increasing number of elementals summoned. Remember, this is level 4 spell!

1) Make more elementals summoned per spell power per summoning mastery level.

2) Make elementals stackable once per level of summoning mastery.

-----OR------
Make the elemental stats depend on the caster's spell power, like summoned phoenix stats do. So the spell would summon buffed up elementals. Actually, I think I prefer this. It could make the spell useful without changing neutral elementals.

It would also be nice to chose either exact or approximate location where elemental appears. Location would be limited to player's back 3 rows.

Reduced mana cost would not make spell useful. Nobody uses spell now because it simply is not useful not because of mana required.

ImperialDane
09-15-2007, 04:07 AM
So Warlock's luck is no locker exclusive ? I wonder if it will happen to other skills as well.. and if this will mean new skills generally to all races.

Yur_Ko
09-15-2007, 04:48 AM
Now that they plan to reduce the number of skills required to get Ultimate, I would love SO much to see Might and Magic Ultimates for each faction (Orcs excluded probably).

I admit it might be too late though http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Moragauth
09-15-2007, 05:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moragauth:
I agree, this really irritates me. Warlock's Luck was Dungeon's unique skill. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And here I was thinking it was irresistable magic and elemental chains. Even with other factions having warlock's luck, they're still the elite damage casters. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Those are also the Warlock's unique skills, yes.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">While Necro will have excellent spell power too, they don't specialize in Destructive so it shouldn't be game breaking. I'd also think that while each faction 'could' get it, it won't be optimum for many. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't care so much about the might factions, it's of little use to them. I wonder if Nival plans on strengthening Empowered Spells at all.

ImperialDane
09-15-2007, 06:44 AM
In any case it is somewhat expansive.. and how will we keep track of those new skills ? Because i doubt that warlock's luck is the only one, plus there might be a few in there.. oh well just more fun i suppose figuring that out http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Normandy09
09-15-2007, 07:35 AM
Time for a new skill wheel I guess.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-15-2007, 08:44 AM
In regards to summon elemental....first off, I actually think the spell is fine now. It's not overpowering, and it's still very useful. However, if you're wanting to improve it I don't think Nival/Ubisoft will want to go back to stacking, so that means some other option. How about this...

Basic Summoning...summons 1 stack of elementals randomly placed and type depends upon terrain.

Advanced Summoning...allows for 2 stacks summoned at the same time (2 separate castings). Still randomly placed and dependant upon terrain.

Expert Summoning...can cast spell 3 times and have 3 stacks active at a time. Can place elementals in the startup tactics area upon summoning. Terrain dependant.

I know some people don't like the terrain dependant part, however, it makes sence in terms of the game-world AND it would eliminate certain elementals being used over and over again and the others being ignored.

What do you think? Better? Worse?

H5forem
09-15-2007, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Yes, they are going to be changing the skill requirements for the ultimate abilities. They are making it easier to acquire. How....I don't know yet. But DEFINITELY not as easy as SmithBD suggested. Yikes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sylvan Ultimate will KICK A** http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Elodin
09-15-2007, 10:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Basic Summoning...summons 1 stack of elementals randomly placed and type depends upon terrain.

Advanced Summoning...allows for 2 stacks summoned at the same time (2 separate castings). Still randomly placed and dependant upon terrain.

Expert Summoning...can cast spell 3 times and have 3 stacks active at a time. Can place elementals in the startup tactics area upon summoning. Terrain dependant.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ability to have more stacks would be small improvement, essentialy only a weak blocking spell at expert. This is level 4 spell for crying out loud. Why can't it be effective?

Problem is plain elementals act so very slowly (earth will likely have 1 turn in whole battle)and are too weak. Level 4 spell shold be significant advancement of power for magic heroe. Summon Elementals is by far the worst level 4 spell.

Compare to other level 4 spells:
Dark: Frenzy, Blind
Destruction: Chain Lightning, meteor
Light: Magic immunity, Teleport

Other summoning level 4 spell is fire wall, which has some usefulness.

Please, why can't summon elemental be so useful as other schools level 4s?

Normandy09
09-15-2007, 11:52 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

ImperialDane
09-15-2007, 12:18 PM
A very valid point, but i think it is because nival is afraid to make it too overpowered. Of course i might be wrong, but i think that is why.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-15-2007, 02:28 PM
Well, if you're going to use summon elemental, I would also be planning on using mass haste or some other buff spells in conjunction with it. I do find it useful in certain situations, but I agree that it could use a boost. But I DON'T want to see it like it was originally. The spamming of it made it a broken spell very quickly.

By the way, just for fun have you ever tried Summon elemental coupled with teleport assault? Nice combo.

Normandy09
09-15-2007, 02:41 PM
But the problem is, is that yes, its strong when coupled with other spells, but its a level 4 spell, it shouldnt require you to have other spells just so that it is useful. It should be useful by itself. I agree that the stacking was way out of hand, but the way it is now is just ******ed.

Moragauth
09-15-2007, 05:43 PM
I wonder if it would not be a good idea to switch Warlock's Luck around with Empowered spells, such that the latter provides a 100% boost to damage, the former 50%. This deviates from the typical Luck path, but OTOH it justifies the high mana costs of empowered spells.

Anyway, I agree with Elodin on Summon Elementals. We tend to agree on a lot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

H5forem
09-16-2007, 07:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moragauth:
I wonder if it would not be a good idea to switch Warlock's Luck around with Empowered spells, such that the latter provides a 100% boost to damage, the former 50%. This deviates from the typical Luck path, but OTOH it justifies the high mana costs of empowered spells. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No way... Warlock's Luck is harder to aquiure and is a random act.

But they might just do that if they will fix that damn luck to only 50% damage for phisical attack too.

Moragauth
09-16-2007, 08:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by H5forem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moragauth:
I wonder if it would not be a good idea to switch Warlock's Luck around with Empowered spells, such that the latter provides a 100% boost to damage, the former 50%. This deviates from the typical Luck path, but OTOH it justifies the high mana costs of empowered spells. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
No way... Warlock's Luck is harder to aquiure and is a random act.

But they might just do that if they will fix that damn luck to only 50% damage for phisical attack too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It also requires double the mana, which is already scarce for the Warlock, until she acquires Intelligence. Besides, with high luck and luck boosting artifacts, it is not overly rare.

Xenofex_086
09-16-2007, 08:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by H5forem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Yes, they are going to be changing the skill requirements for the ultimate abilities. They are making it easier to acquire. How....I don't know yet. But DEFINITELY not as easy as SmithBD suggested. Yikes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sylvan Ultimate will KICK A** http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Hardly, the tree-huggers already tend to hit with luck often enough. But if we talk about Howl of Terror... well, this may get ugly indeed. Urgash's Call with Nymus sounds like more than pain in the *** too.
Btw, what's the Rune Mage's ultimate? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-16-2007, 08:33 AM
Rune Mage? Absolute protection. All enemy attacks are UN-lucky. If the enemy is a sylvan with Natures luck, they off set each other and do nothing.

Inferno015
09-16-2007, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
By the way, just for fun have you ever tried Summon elemental coupled with teleport assault? Nice combo. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its a nice combo in almost any situation. Teleport Assault is an awesome ability especially if your opponent has plenty of ranged units. You get to telepoert a large stack right next to some archers who do less damage in melee, and quickly bring them down or simply not permit the archers to fire arrows.

ImperialDane
09-16-2007, 11:04 AM
Teleport assault ? Think i got it once, though i don't think i used it that much.. But i am willing to believe it is a very good ability.

Elodin
09-16-2007, 02:59 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ImperialDane:
Teleport assault ? Think i got it once, though i don't think i used it that much.. But i am willing to believe it is a very good ability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Teleport assault can be a good ability. But wizard only have 2% chance to learn logistics. And it would be unlikely for me to use teleport assault with elementals. More likely is to use teleport assault with golems and be able to cast another spell before or after assault because elementals are pretty useless spell to cast.

ImperialDane
09-16-2007, 03:12 PM
Well perhaps there will be changes to tribes in those regards, as they seem somewhat intent on changing skills and handing out perks..

Moragauth
09-16-2007, 05:16 PM
Logistics is a great skill (too great unfortunately, almost a must-have.) If the Warlock didn't place such a high premium on other skills, I'd take it more often.

Xenofex_086
09-17-2007, 10:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Rune Mage? Absolute protection. All enemy attacks are UN-lucky. If the enemy is a sylvan with Natures luck, they off set each other and do nothing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Permanent misfortune, eh? Nice... Thanks.
Ah, one more thing. It's not about a skill, but PLEASE, give the poor Arch Devil ONE more HP. This 199-thing makes me wanna kill the idiot responsible for this decision. And those who approved it for that matter... It's the same as the optical effect of the price in the super-markets, but it's even more irritating. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

ImperialDane
09-17-2007, 10:32 AM
That might happen, as it seems a lot of changes are happening with tribes.

Xenofex_086
09-17-2007, 10:49 AM
This is almost no change. The stats of Inferno's cutthroats are quite a mess with all these 6s and 13s (and reversed 13s - 13-31 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif) but the Arch Devil's Hit Points in particular really get on my nerves to this very day.

PhoenixReborn06
09-18-2007, 09:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
This 199-thing makes me wanna kill the idiot responsible for this decision. It's the same as the optical effect of the price in the super-markets, but it's even more irritating. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't understand. What's so annoying about 199?

Xenofex_086
09-18-2007, 11:50 PM
It's one point below 200. As an end in itself. Why not 200? The Shadow Dragon has 200, not 199 HP, the Green/Emerald too, but the Arch Devil has 199 becouse they decided that it's very original to invert 166. It just doesn't fit.

Yur_Ko
09-19-2007, 07:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
It's one point below 200. As an end in itself. Why not 200? The Shadow Dragon has 200, not 199 HP, the Green/Emerald too, but the Arch Devil has 199 becouse they decided that it's very original to invert 166. It just doesn't fit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's kinda off-topic... That ain't no skill.

As for skills, put aside that I think that Defense is useless in most cases, Resistance could use some boost also. It's so-o-o small a bonus http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

KingAlamar
09-19-2007, 08:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by H5forem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Yes, they are going to be changing the skill requirements for the ultimate abilities. They are making it easier to acquire. How....I don't know yet. But DEFINITELY not as easy as SmithBD suggested. Yikes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sylvan Ultimate will KICK A** http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If the ultimates are something that you really have to worry about opponnents getting then, IMHO, it's time to do something about the luck skill && the luck effect in game.

In as far as rebalancing the Sylvan ultimate goes I would think that lowering the bonus you gets WHEN luck triggers would be good. Possibly spreading the effects between lucky attack & lucky defense would be good. You might even want to change the description of the ultimate from "luck triggers 100%" to luck triggers twice as often as normal then possibly reduce the chance that luck triggers in general.

Moragauth
09-19-2007, 04:39 PM
Also off topic, but I am not inclined to start a new thread on it: I hope the Blood Altar (if that is its name) is improved. Anything to boost the Furies' growth rate would be good. As it is, it is a useless structure.

Elodin
09-19-2007, 08:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Yur_Ko:
As for skills, put aside that I think that Defense is useless in most cases, Resistance could use some boost also. It's so-o-o small a bonus http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not see defense as useless at all for a might build especially. And Resistance gives 15% chance to all your creatures to completely avoid magic spell! That is not so weak, especially if you have artifacts that also give resistace. Any stronger would be overpowered against magic heroe.

Sylvan gets extra 30% resistance aura from unicorns.

Dwarven luck lets each stack have 2 chances to resist and is quite easy to get.

10% from boots of magic defense.

All those add to the 15% magic resistance from defense somewhat.

Maybe there should be magic skill that give 15% chance to avoid physical attack and wizard get double that with new skill "Mirror Image skill", plus be able to boost that chance with artifacts and see how much boohooing happens with might players charge across battlefield with their gods...errrr, I mean paladins who then wiff their attack.

Xenofex_086
09-20-2007, 01:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Yur_Ko:
That's kinda off-topic... That ain't no skill.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>Yup, it is, I mentioned it. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
About Resistance - em, isn't this the +2 Defense skill, not Magic Resistance, or I have to install the game once again? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Moragauth
09-20-2007, 05:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
Maybe there should be magic skill that give 15% chance to avoid physical attack and wizard get double that with new skill "Mirror Image skill", plus be able to boost that chance with artifacts and see how much boohooing happens with might players charge across battlefield with their gods...errrr, I mean paladins who then wiff their attack. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would be happy if there were more low-level defensive spells (e.g. weaker types of Arcane Armour.) Also, as I have mentioned before, spellcasters should develop anti-antimagic skills, like Dungeon's Irresistible Magic.

Yur_Ko
09-20-2007, 05:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
About Resistance - em, isn't this the +2 Defense skill, not Magic Resistance, or I have to install the game once again? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. It was my point that gaining +2 defense is virtually nothing. I guess Elodin messed things up ...

Elodin
09-20-2007, 11:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Yur_Ko:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
About Resistance - em, isn't this the +2 Defense skill, not Magic Resistance, or I have to install the game once again? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. It was my point that gaining +2 defense is virtually nothing. I guess Elodin messed things up ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Begging your pardon for misunderstanding what you meant. However, how is it worse ability than graduate for instance that give +2 to knowledge when wizard needs no more knowledge?

Kranyum
09-21-2007, 05:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">rdon for misunderstanding what you meant. However, how is it worse ability than graduate for instance that give +2 to knowledge when wizard needs n </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMHO all the +2 to a primary skill perks should be buffed to a +3. It would make them worth to take...

Yur_Ko
09-21-2007, 07:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kranyum:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">rdon for misunderstanding what you meant. However, how is it worse ability than graduate for instance that give +2 to knowledge when wizard needs n </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

IMHO all the +2 to a primary skill perks should be buffed to a +3. It would make them worth to take... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, though I think that +2 Spellpower/Knowledge is a better bonus even if Wizard has a lot of mana... I guess +4 def won't be the worst idea... but +3 is minimum (or they could add some other bonus http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif to that +2)

PhoenixReborn06
09-21-2007, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kranyum:
IMHO all the +2 to a primary skill perks should be buffed to a +3. It would make them worth to take... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I like this. And also make that crummy 1000 bonus gold scale to the week...

Inferno015
09-21-2007, 03:50 PM
The ultimate skills are somewhat unbalanced. Don't get me wrong, they are all hard to get. But I think that Arcane Ominescence for a Wizard is way better than the Rage of the Elements for Warlocks. They should either make the strong ultimates weaker or vice versa. In any case, they could do with some changes. Here is what they could do if they were all improved:
Unstoppable Charge: 4x or 5x damage
Urgash's Call: Fine as it is
Arcane Ominescence: Fine as it is
Rage of the Elements: 4x or 5x damage
Absolute Luck: sometimes doesn't activate, other than that, fine
Absolute Protection: Fine as it is
Howl of Terror: Longer duration, could affect luck (if it doesn't already, I'm not sure)

Elodin
09-21-2007, 04:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Inferno015:
The ultimate skills are somewhat unbalanced. Don't get me wrong, they are all hard to get. But I think that Arcane Ominescence for a Wizard is way better than the Rage of the Elements for Warlocks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

To be honest, I do not like Arcane Ominescence. It gives no mass spells and usually I will already have 2-3 magic schools learned as wizard, so arcane ominescence offers little benefit. Plus it requires the attack skill, which wizard seldom can get.

On other hand, Rage of Elements actually helps damage by making chains better. Although it does not have destruction in path, so is make not sense.

Hopefully TOTE makes paths to ultimates better and accessible to all heroes of the faction.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Yur_Ko:
I agree, though I think that +2 Spellpower/Knowledge is a better bonus even if Wizard has a lot of mana... I guess +4 def won't be the worst idea... but +3 is minimum (or they could add some other bonus http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif to that +2) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If wizard already have more than enough mana then more knowledge is utterly worthless to him unless he is able to make his resourse intensive mini-artifacts so in that sese +2 knowledge is a worse benefit than +2 defense, which is always helpful.

Inferno015
09-21-2007, 04:44 PM
The only true benefit of Arcane Ominiesence is the Expert level thing. But like I said, you hardly ever get the skills anyway so it doesn't make too much of a difference.

Coincidentally, did anyone actually ever get the Ultimate Skills? The only time I could ever use them was with cheats, but thats no fun because you're like 30 levels above your opponent.

Rage is nice, but the original damage is percented. So if you do low damage with the primary, you then do percent damage which then gets multiplied by two. So instead of dealing 10% extra, you deal 20% extra. Not too amazing, especially if your primary attack does say 100 damage. Then it only adds 20 damage. 20 damage after having gone through all that to get an ultimate skill? Of course, if you have a lot of Dungeon Castles with Altar, this percent can change dramatically, but first you have to get those Dungeons.

And Unstoppable Charge isn't that great either. Sure, it does some 200+ damage, but by the time you get it, your enemy has massive armies. An ultimate ability that you get at LV 30 should be as good as the armies you face by the time you reach LV30.

Moragauth
09-21-2007, 05:13 PM
Improving Rage of the Elements would be nice. I am sure Nival will have revised the idiotic skill paths that are required for it. It'll give Dungeon an ability similar to Blood Rage.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-21-2007, 06:43 PM
I always suggest to new players to stay away from the ultimate skills. There are certainly some that are more useful than others, but in order to get there, you have to sacrifice so much.

The Wizard has to take Enlightenment. Not a prime skill for a wizard. He's also limited to no mass spells and only level 2 spells because of no magic insight. Bad path.

The Warlock has to take War Machines...he's got much better uses for his skills than that.

The Runemage has the best path with the most useful skills. War Machines, Destructive, Logistics and Defense are ALL very viable skill sets for him.

The Ranger has to take Logistics. And while that's not a bad skill, the true problem lies with the heroes themselves. There are only a small handful who can even reach the skill if they manage to get there.

The Necromancer has to take Logistics and corrupted soil, thus losing one of the dark mass skills, and scholar & dark revelation. Not a horrible group, but certainly not an optimum set-up.

The Knight must take Light, Logistics & enlightenment while sacrificing 2 of the mass light skills and being forced to take scholar, graduate, wizards reward, familiar ground, death march and tear of asha vision. FAR from an optimum build. Add on to that the mediocre nature of the ultimate...I'd pass.

The Demon Lord has to take Dark, Logistics, Luck, Attack. Certainly a viable path.

So in general, only the Demon Lord or the Runemage should EVER consider going for the ultimate skills. The only other possible faction would be Sylvan's Ranger, but only Dirael, Talanar, Vinrael, and Ylthin can reach it. And Talanar & Vinrael can't learn a magic school to get it also. That basically limits you to just Dirael & Ylthin.

Inferno015
09-21-2007, 07:21 PM
There is no doubt that the Ultimate Skills are somewhat pathetic. What's the point of taking Arcan Ominesence when you can get only the magic you want / need. Besides, you hardly ever get to that ultimate skill anyway.

Which is exactly why I strongly petition for improved Ultimate Skills. Their very name suggests there abilties shoud make your opponent tremble. Some of them are worthwhile, true, but most of them can be compensated for with some different batte ability.

For the most part if forces you to take what you normally don't take. Wizard doesn' need attack, he can boost damage with spells. I think (I'm not sure though) that every ultimate skill requires one stat that is the extreme difficult to acquire of a faction. Exs include Knight; Enlightenemt, Wizard; Attack and so on.

And from the comments that I've seen so far, I think everyone agrees that the Ultimate Skill system could use an overhaul.

Also I would like to repeat my question of has anyone ever actually gotten an Ultimate Skill without using cheats? I tried, but got bored and just won with what I had. Which brings back a point I made in another forum about not being able to completely level up. What is the point of LV40 if you can't reach it without cheats? I suppose the exception is maybe one or so maps with plenty of those Free Tree Level Up thingies.

Elodin
09-21-2007, 07:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Inferno015:
Also I would like to repeat my question of has anyone ever actually gotten an Ultimate Skill without using cheats? I tried, but got bored and just won with what I had. Which brings back a point I made in another forum about not being able to completely level up. What is the point of LV40 if you can't reach it without cheats? I suppose the exception is maybe one or so maps with plenty of those Free Tree Level Up thingies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh yes, I have gotten ultimate skill number of times. Key is to advance in only couple of skills at a time. Of course still you need a little luck and have to pick heroe who can get it.

I have reached level of level of about 35 only, but mapmaker can make it possible to get to level 40 easily with quest rewards and Sylvania Trees, so having level 40 as possible is ok.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-21-2007, 07:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Inferno015:
Also I would like to repeat my question of has anyone ever actually gotten an Ultimate Skill without using cheats? I tried, but got bored and just won with what I had. Which brings back a point I made in another forum about not being able to completely level up. What is the point of LV40 if you can't reach it without cheats? I suppose the exception is maybe one or so maps with plenty of those Free Tree Level Up thingies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Absolutely I have. I've gotten all of them at one time or another. In campaigns its quite easy to get them (well, easy is a poor choice of words...but you get my drift). It's also quite possible to reach them in the large SP maps too. The biggest problem I have with players going for them is this, by the time you manage to actually get them, the map is won (or nearly so). In fact, the first time I got Arcane for Academy was on Mahirr's Gambit. The problem was that I got it as a result of the final battle. So I never got to see the results of it. Sadly, that's the case most of the time. But yes, I've gotten them. (and fyi, I've never used the cheat console or any mods...I loathe them)

Xenofex_086
09-22-2007, 01:34 AM
The ultimates are not equally powerful, true, but then again - the factions do not need equally powerful ultimates. So, let's see:

Haven: Unstoppable Charge - makes the hero extremely effective in battle, given that his army is already more than effective killing machine. The skill allows the Knight to deal 4.5 x his normal damage to the attacking stack, which means that a level 20 Knight will be able to slay 4 Tier 7 creatures and halve the HP of the fifth. That's more than 800 damage in any case and don't forget that this blow will be delivered to any stack, which attacks the "defended" creatures (meaning that if the latter are the last survivors from the Knight's army and fight against 3-4-5-... enemy stacks, all of them will recieve a significant ammount of pain each round). The skill is far from useless. Sure, it's weaker tha Nature's Luck for example, but Haven's army in general compensates for this, big time.

Sylvan: Nature's Luck - the skill is not very useful in my opinion, 'couse Sylvan's creatures hit with luck at least 3 out of 5 attacks, with only Expert Luck (no artifacts of Luck-boosting sites). Nevertheless, this skill ensures that the opponent will always have a hard time. Moreover, Sylvan's creatures are fast, deal very significant damage and have this cute racial skill to quadriple the punishment. The entire faction needs nerfing in my opinion, it's hard as hell to play against it on larger maps.

Academy: Arcane Omniscience - well, I'll skip my comment here. I don't play with these fellows much (I think they're the most interesting faction actually, but I don't like Wizard/Tower since the old times - too clumsy for me - and I guess this serves its purpose...). I trust the more experienced Academy players here...

Inferno: Urgash's Call - excellent ultimate, and I'd say - balanced with the faction itself (except for Nymus maybe...). It's a completely offensive skill, but very flexible too. And Inferno needs to increase its offensive power by all means neccessary - this is the only way to win the battle. The severe lack of Defense and the vulnerable creatures forces the Demon Lord's army to charge forward, quite often - with suicadal effects (especially against Sylvan and Haven). So some reinforcement, which serve as cannon-fodder until the main army advances behind them do a great job and makes Inferno fearsome indeed - and most of the other factions are fearsome by default.

Necropolis: Howl of Terror - now, I don't think I'm the only one who'd say that Necro needs no further gifts, it's imb enough already. The ultimate gives additional -6 Morale bonus to Banshee's Howl, which is A LOT! Try to imagine an army without Leadership (Inferno, Dungeon) or Morale-boosting artefacts against this thing - sure, the latter is not very likely, but in the end the targets will have at least -4 Morale, which will make them skip their turns at least half of the time. Now add this effect to the other curses, especially Mass Slow - only the enemy hero won't be almost completely disabled. No more improvements here, please!

Dungeon: Rage of Elements - I admit, this thing could use some attention. Elemental Chains do +20% elemental damage with Ultimate Irresistable Magic to the creature with the opposite element (though some patch may have changed this, dunno...), so Rage of Elements means +40% damage. Not very spectacular really. But I don't think the skill itself needs to be modified - maybe the ammount of elemental damage per level of Irresistable Magic could be improved to +30% for instance, so the effect will be +60% with Rage of Elements (triple damage in comparison with the current situation). In any case, the Warlock's spells hit pretty hard on their own, so the skill shouldn't be too powerful.

Fortress: Ultimate Protection - never got it, though it sounds like a really nasty skill. Fortress' creatures are tough even without further reduction of the damage dealt by the opponent. The Might faction should have HUGE problems with this thingie...

So, let's say that the ultimates hardly need much adjustment. My two cents of course...

Inferno015
09-22-2007, 05:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Absolutely I have. I've gotten all of them at one time or another. In campaigns its quite easy to get them (well, easy is a poor choice of words...but you get my drift). It's also quite possible to reach them in the large SP maps too. The biggest problem I have with players going for them is this, by the time you manage to actually get them, the map is won (or nearly so). In fact, the first time I got Arcane for Academy was on Mahirr's Gambit. The problem was that I got it as a result of the final battle. So I never got to see the results of it. Sadly, that's the case most of the time. But yes, I've gotten them. (and fyi, I've never used the cheat console or any mods...I loathe them) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, thats exactly the problem. Most of the time, you get your massive amounts of level ups after the Final Battle, as we can call it. Which is why I really don't like the LV requirements from higher levels. Did you notice that at one point, the requirement jumps from near 800000 to 120000? That is 400000 EXP, not an easy task to acquire. And the EXP needed for level 40 is in the Billions! I really hope that the new expansion will lower level requirements at least a little bit. I've already noticed that you benefit from battles a little more than from the previous games (experience wise), but that doesn't help you much if the EXP for higher levels is near unattainable.

Also, I don't think there is a buiulding that picks 4 random skills and allows you to learn them for a price anymore. They should definetly bring that back.

Inferno015
09-22-2007, 05:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
(and fyi, I've never used the cheat console or any mods...I loathe them) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I only use cheat codes if I;ve played the game for several long hours, and its obvious I'm going to win, and I want to have some fun doing it. Other than that, cheats really take away from the games fun.

Moragauth
09-22-2007, 06:15 AM
If Rage led to a total of 60 - 80% extra damage and required skills actually useful to the Warlock, I'd consider it worthwhile. As it is right now, it might as well not exist. Any skill that requires War Machines is useless to me.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-22-2007, 09:33 AM
I'll tell you what cracks me up. Necropolis. For months and months we kept hearing people complain about how pitiful the Necro units were. They were too weak, they had pitiful abilities, the hero needs to be buffed. LOL. Now I'm seeing posts about them being TOO strong to the point that they're imbalanced. Personally, I think they're right in the middle. Right where I thought (and said) they were from the very beginning. Hehe.

And by the way, concerning the high experience requirements for upper levels. Personally I'm all for them. You're talking about level FOURTY here for goodness sake. It SHOULD be very difficult to attain. However, if you know early on that you'll be playing an epic map where you'll be topping level 30...then you should seriously consider taking Enlightenment early on. I also highly suggest you scour the map, the black markets & artifact merchants for the helm & gown artifacts that grant the experience boosts. On large maps I almost always find them both. So any chests I pick up or any mid-level battles I fight, I'm wearing those artis. If you 'can' win the battle without your best armor & helm...then do so and wear the extra experience ones.

You say that the experience required is 120,000....well, with expert enlightenment (15 % reduction) and those two artis (20 % & 10 % reductions respectively) , it's now only 66,000. That's a HUGE drop-off. And with your level 40 example, you need 753,585,216 to advance from level 39 (not in the billions...it's millions). So what would this combo do to THAT monsterous number? Well, it goes from 753 million to 414 million. Yes, it's still a huge amount, but far more attainable. The point I'm trying to make is that you don't want to make it so much easier to max out a hero because then the end-game portion of the game will result in no hero development whatsoever. Level 40 is as high as you can go, so it should be nearly impossible to reach that goal other than in a campaign. I say, leave it as it is. Making the ultimates easier to acquire is one thing, but lessening the leveling up requirements is a bad idea IMO.

Inferno015
09-22-2007, 09:52 AM
O come on, you can't tell me that LV 40 is fair to get. I'm not talking dramatic change, but 753 million? Do you have any idea how much that is? And 414 million? Maybe its attainable, but you'd have to let your enemy recouperate so you can annihialte a lot of larger armies. Heck, even with seven enemies, LV 40 is VERY difficult to reach. Too difficult. So what if the base EXP needed was say 400 million (or 500 million)? Then the reductions would actually make it attainable. You need Enlightenment, and two artifacts just to make it easier to get. If you ask me, the only way to truly achieve the final level is with tree of Sylanna. Be completely honest...do you actually think its possible to attain LV40 through battles alone? If they don't decrease LV requirements, then they should at least increase the amount of EXP per unit killed. Either way, something in the EXP system has to change.

As for the Necro, you're absolutely right about it being balanced. The new Dark Points system prevents Necros from getting huge armies in the early game. Definetly a fair way to balance things. Plus, it makes more sense now. I hated killing a BLack Dragon and getting two Skeleton Archers. Now, you can summon forth Ghost Dragons, but it obviously costs the Necromancer large amounts of energy. It would be kind of cool if Necromancy drained Mana instead, but mana is too easy to replenish.

A very extreme alternate, is if Necromancy was a combat ability and you could use either DP or MP to bring back fallen enemies as your own allies only during battles. But that strays a little too far away from the Necromancy that we've all gotten used too.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-22-2007, 10:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Inferno015:
O come on, you can't tell me that LV 40 is fair to get. I'm not talking dramatic change, but 753 million? Do you have any idea how much that is? And 414 million? Maybe its attainable, but you'd have to let your enemy recouperate so you can annihialte a lot of larger armies. Heck, even with seven enemies, LV 40 is VERY difficult to reach. Too difficult. So what if the base EXP needed was say 400 million (or 500 million)? Then the reductions would actually make it attainable. You need Enlightenment, and two artifacts just to make it easier to get. If you ask me, the only way to truly achieve the final level is with tree of Sylanna. Be completely honest...do you actually think its possible to attain LV40 through battles alone? If they don't decrease LV requirements, then they should at least increase the amount of EXP per unit killed. Either way, something in the EXP system has to change. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, it doesn't have to change. And yes, you can reach level 40 with battles alone...in a CAMPAIGN. If you make it easier, as much easier as YOU'RE suggesting, then campaigns will be a joke. As it stands right now, they're already having to limit the hero levels on campaigns just so you can develop throughout the entire campaign. What is it about level 40 that you seem to want? The ultimate skills? Well, you only need level 30 for that (only 26 for necro). So at what point should you be able to attain level 40? End-game? Mid-game? Campaigns only? X-L only? Whichever one you pick, the others get screwed. So the only viable alternative is to shoot for the end-game of the longest version...campaigns. This means that in SP/MP games you'll pretty much never attain it without cheats. So if you insist on getting to level 40, play the campaigns.

phoenixzs
09-22-2007, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I'll tell you what cracks me up. Necropolis. For months and months we kept hearing people complain about how pitiful the Necro units were. They were too weak, they had pitiful abilities, the hero needs to be buffed. LOL. Now I'm seeing posts about them being TOO strong to the point that they're imbalanced. Personally, I think they're right in the middle. Right where I thought (and said) they were from the very beginning. Hehe.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that was a very low blow.

I for my self was one of the defenders that necropolis units were pitiful at the begining but the time was where the Necromancy wasnt changed(months ago as you might say when I was debating).I personally havent played the game after changes have been made and I dont have a clue about if its balanced or not with the new system.Although I do think Nival has taken the easy way and raising troops seems(In my view) a bit off the edge pointing to the IMBA side.But still doesnt change the fact that creatures are weak by stats and abilities and it actually futher proves my points that a massive change in necromancy system had to be made before they could gain power.

Furthermore interestingly there are a lot of suggestions or resemblences of my ideas to the new alternate upgrades which in my opinion further proves my point.

But actually I have no solid comment on the current state but often hear people complaining about Necro.

Inferno015
09-22-2007, 10:52 AM
Its not that I want to reach LV40, its that I want to know its possible to reach LV40. I don't care about the skills or the primary stats. I just don't see the point in such levels if you rarely ever get to them. Take heroes 3. That was better, no because it had higher levels, but because you could continue to level up as the game progresses. In h5, you get to the high 30s and you hit a stop. You find that it will take VERY long to get the next level up.

I guess I'm not making much sense though. The general thing is, what is the point of working hard to get LV40 in campaigns if you get it at the last level in the end game, and when you win, its all over.

On an unrelated manner, does anyone know how the heroes basic attack works (the attack the hero performs if he doesn't choose anything from the spellbook)? Is that based on level or one of the primary stats?

Elodin
09-22-2007, 12:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Inferno015:
Its not that I want to reach LV40, its that I want to know its possible to reach LV40. I don't care about the skills or the primary stats. I just don't see the point in such levels if you rarely ever get to them. Take heroes 3. That was better, no because it had higher levels, but because you could continue to level up as the game progresses. In h5, you get to the high 30s and you hit a stop. You find that it will take VERY long to get the next level up.

I guess I'm not making much sense though. The general thing is, what is the point of working hard to get LV40 in campaigns if you get it at the last level in the end game, and when you win, its all over.

On an unrelated manner, does anyone know how the heroes basic attack works (the attack the hero performs if he doesn't choose anything from the spellbook)? Is that based on level or one of the primary stats? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can always edit maps if you wish for single player mode. Scatter some trees over maps and use the trees wisely. That would be easy to do. You also may learn scripting and make fun quests and maybe become mapmaker yourself.

Chart is in the downloadable fan manual under "Heroes Direct Damage" (page 220 of HOF 2.1 manual)for heroe attacks.
http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/game_manuals.shtml

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Heroes kill a certain number of creatures depending on their level and the creature's tier. It means that they deal a
different amount of damage to different creatures, as the damage dealt is only a side effect, deduced from the number
of creatures killed and the number of hit points they have. The formula is linear to hero level for a given creature tier,
and you can devise it from level 1 and level 31 exact values in the table below.
This system allows heroes to be effective against high-level creatures, while not being overpowered against low-level
creatures. Notice that a hero doesn't kill one complete level 7 creature until he reaches level 21 </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Xenofex_086
09-22-2007, 12:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I'll tell you what cracks me up. Necropolis. For months and months we kept hearing people complain about how pitiful the Necro units were. They were too weak, they had pitiful abilities, the hero needs to be buffed. LOL. Now I'm seeing posts about them being TOO strong to the point that they're imbalanced. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Say... what? I sure had abandoned this forum 7-8 months ago, but back then there was more than enough (massively justified) whining about Necro being imb. Weak units, WTF??! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Are we talking about the same faction? The immune to curses (and mind control) faction? The faction with the largest army? Or we talk about "weak" units like the self-resurrecting Vampire, the hard-as-hell to hit Ghost, the Liches with area of effect attack and massive damage... And the most important moment - are we talking about the same 255278963242 Skeleton Archers or not? Balanced? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Weak?!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

Elodin
09-22-2007, 03:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
Say... what? I sure had abandoned this forum 7-8 months ago, but back then there was more than enough (massively justified) whining about Necro being imb. Weak units, WTF??! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Are we talking about the same faction? The immune to curses (and mind control) faction? The faction with the largest army? Or we talk about "weak" units like the self-resurrecting Vampire, the hard-as-hell to hit Ghost, the Liches with area of effect attack and massive damage... And the most important moment - are we talking about the same 255278963242 Skeleton Archers or not? Balanced? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Weak?!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I for one been saying necros too strong all along. Great spell power and infinite mana (Mark of Necro.)

And the "rebalancing" dark points/higher troop animation introduced only increased their power. Getting higher level troops free as they creep, needing only the level 2 raise dead spell they get free at start of game.

I admit that raise higher troops is neat(but only until it make game no fun) but is imbalanced. So I hardly play necro any more as result.

PhoenixReborn06
09-22-2007, 10:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
I admit that raise higher troops is neat(but only until it make game no fun) but is imbalanced. So I hardly play necro any more as result. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the issue is more that MOTN is overpowered. Take that out and Necro has a much much tougher time in the first couple weeks higher level monsters or no.

Xenofex_086
09-23-2007, 12:50 AM
Well, I have no problems creeping with Skeleton Archers + Zombies (guarding them) + Vampires combo, even without spells. With some luck, the Ghosts could do wonders too.
Hell, is the initial creeping with Necro really an issue?

Inferno015
09-23-2007, 05:19 AM
The Necros were somewhat rebalanced with the introduction of the Dark Points. Other than that, they are still great.

MOTN is only OP in the mid to late game. In the early game, it has practically no effect. Still, it is a neat ability that could be reduced in effect.

Final_Boss
09-23-2007, 05:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Elodin:
I admit that raise higher troops is neat(but only until it make game no fun) but is imbalanced. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Greeeeat, more standard whining about necro being imbalanced. You say imbalanced... but why? please enlighten us with some numbers and proofs of it.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-23-2007, 09:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Xenofex_086:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I'll tell you what cracks me up. Necropolis. For months and months we kept hearing people complain about how pitiful the Necro units were. They were too weak, they had pitiful abilities, the hero needs to be buffed. LOL. Now I'm seeing posts about them being TOO strong to the point that they're imbalanced. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Say... what? I sure had abandoned this forum 7-8 months ago, but back then there was more than enough (massively justified) whining about Necro being imb. Weak units, WTF??! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Are we talking about the same faction? The immune to curses (and mind control) faction? The faction with the largest army? Or we talk about "weak" units like the self-resurrecting Vampire, the hard-as-hell to hit Ghost, the Liches with area of effect attack and massive damage... And the most important moment - are we talking about the same 255278963242 Skeleton Archers or not? Balanced? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Weak?!!! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look, I'm not saying they're weak or that they WERE weak before the necromancy changes. I'm saying that several people here were griping about them being weak over and over again. Final_Boss being the most vocal...but hardly by himself. I was totally happy with what they brought to the table. While early on they were skeleton-heavy the other units were still very useful. Now it's more balanced across the board for them, but the units themselves haven't changed. I just find it funny that now people aren't complaining about them being a weak faction but rather an overpowered faction. I say it's neither, but rather in the middle and quite well balanced.

Inferno015
09-23-2007, 09:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
I admit that raise higher troops is neat(but only until it make game no fun) but is imbalanced. So I hardly play necro any more as result. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are somewhat right. To raise high level creatures, you need to fight high level creatures. Then you find you can only get one, or maybe two Ghost Dragons per week anyway. Still, one or two free Ghost Dragons sure is a nice bonus, even if they are a weak LV7 unit. So although, it is a little imbalanced, it certainly requires a lot of work before you get those high level creatures.

Jolly-Joker
09-23-2007, 09:47 AM
Let's be fair here, the gripe was more about Necro being BORING than Necro being weak. I don't think it's boring now - in fact it's rather fun to play. I think that the "imba" cries are due to the fact that the MotN/Raise Dead combo is rather obvious and simple to use for most while other things like single-Imp/Hellfire tactics and so on may not be as obvious.

But make no mistake: if you can't match the Necro creeping speed with any of the other towns you won't be competetive with those very probably against players who excel in playing a certain race.

Elodin
09-23-2007, 10:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Final_Boss:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Elodin:
I admit that raise higher troops is neat(but only until it make game no fun) but is imbalanced. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Greeeeat, more standard whining about necro being imbalanced. You say imbalanced... but why? please enlighten us with some numbers and proofs of it. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I was not whining. Stating opinion is not whining. I was stating my opinion. It is you whining because I do not have same opinion as you. I will state my opinion and you state your opinion, ok? Everybody have right to say what they think even if it does not agree with what you think.

I'm not out to write thesis. My statement is based on my personal observations while playing necro. I already said why I think them imbalanced.

1)Infinite mana (MOTN) so the low knowledge attribute in meaningless to them. They match warlock for highest spell power in game and in reality have highest knowledge in game because of infinite mana.

2) Free higher level troops while creeping. They leave caste to creep, all the while gaining higher level troops as they creep, gaining troop strength and heroe power as they go.

3)They get free level 2 raise dead that is equal to level 5 resurrection for them so they have no/little loses as they rolling along creeping building up higher and higher number of troops with necromancy.

4) The best spell school in game is dark magic and is native to necro mage guild. Necro have higherst chance to learn it (15%)Dark magic is overpowered moment and with the new spells gets even stronger.

Inferno015
09-23-2007, 10:04 AM
I mentioned this before, but what would you think of a Necromancy ability that lets you raise fallen enemy creatures (draining your Dark Points) for the duration of battles. This ability would of course have to be a combat ability. I think that would actually be pretty cool, and make the Dark Points much more limiting.

Elodin is right about Necro being imbalanced. No matter what you say, Necro has massive armies, and powerful casters (hero) to support them. Add to that the occasional extra Ghost Dragon. Thats wy I think the idea above might be nice. At least it sounds nice. I'm sure someone can come up with a reason why it sucks.

Jolly-Joker
09-23-2007, 11:08 AM
Inferno, I'm sorry, but what you say is HIGHLY debatable.
Let's start with Dark Magic being the best magic skill. I would oppose this due to the fact that the effect of the DM spells depend on what the OPPONENT did to guard against it. You may cast a level 4 or 5 spell - and the opponent may withstand it, waisting a complete turn.
Second, your main points are about creeping. For that read my last post.
Lastly, your points 1 and 4 are somehow exclusive, because spell power is not that important with Dark (and Light) Magic.

Final_Boss
09-23-2007, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Inferno015:
Elodin is right about Necro being imbalanced. No matter what you say, Necro has massive armies, and powerful casters (hero) to support them. Add to that the occasional extra Ghost Dragon. Thats wy I think the idea above might be nice. At least it sounds nice. I'm sure someone can come up with a reason why it sucks. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ok, I'm going to repeat it one more time: Spectral Dragons are cr@p. The cr@pest necro creature, so why would you spend your Dark Energy on them instead on vampires/lichs? The answer is simple: because you don't know what are you talking about, just like most of necro haters, sorry.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Elodin:
1)Infinite mana (MOTN) so the low knowledge attribute in meaningless to them. They match warlock for highest spell power in game and in reality have highest knowledge in game because of infinite mana.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Most of mass spells and high level spells cost more than 10 points of mana, so necromancers need at least 2 points of knowledge (Conjure Phoenix costs 35 = 4 knowledge). Anyway, everybody thinks you just cast Mark of the Necromancer over a creature and booom! infinite mana for you. No, no, no, it costs 1/2 of you hero's initiative, and then the marked creature has to take damage. Sounds easy, but if, for example, you want to cast Phantom Forces the marked creature has to take 900 points of damage or be hit 18 times (considering you have 0 mana) in order to get the needed 18 spell points for it. How many turns will be your necromancer doing nothing till that? MotW is far more powerful.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Elodin:
2) Free higher level troops while creeping. They leave caste to creep, all the while gaining higher level troops as they creep, gaining troop strength and heroe power as they go. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not free anymore, those creatures cost dark energy. Anyway you are talking about necromancy, a racial ability. Inferno has gating, Haven has training, and so on.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Elodin:
3)They get free level 2 raise dead that is equal to level 5 resurrection for them so they have no/little loses as they rolling along creeping building up higher and higher number of troops with necromancy.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The 3 first necro creature tiers are cr@p for creeping (skeletons, zombies, ghosts), and necromancers have almost 0 AT, that is why MotN and Raise Dead is there.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Elodin:
4) The best spell school in game is dark magic and is native to necro mage guild. Necro have higherst chance to learn it (15%)Dark magic is overpowered moment and with the new spells gets even stronger. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Overpowered this, overpowered that... but why? it is overpowered because you say it? I couldn't really say what school of magic is the best one.

Kranyum
09-23-2007, 11:44 AM
I find myself agreeing with FinalBoss here.

It comes to my notice that many people on these forums speak without having a clue about what they are talking about and that's just sad.
You actually have to play a game for a while to have an understanding of things and then emit an opinion.

About Necro: they have some strong points. *Creeping is easier with them, or at least more beginner friendly. I can take Utopias in week 3 with Lucretia with no losses, a thing which I doubt any other town can easily do.
*They don't have mana problems, even with their low knowledge.
*Dark magic is potent and their creeps are immune to most dangerous dark spells.

Anyways, I usually find my single player necro games to be easier than with other races. But, the important balance issues come in multiplayer, so, I cannot actually speak(unlike other people...). Nevertheless in multiplayer the player's skill has actually a great importance.

phoenixzs
09-23-2007, 11:48 AM
That Mark of the necromancer thing totally changed everything.Whats the idea of having high knowledge I would like to ask?

And about Necro being boring, I actually thin kwith alternative troops it would be very interesting to play(still wraith is suc-kingly boring)

Final_Boss
09-23-2007, 01:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That Mark of the necromancer thing totally changed everything.Whats the idea of having high knowledge I would like to ask? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
As I said before, most of powerful spells (mass spells/high level spells) cost more than 10 points of mana, so if a necromancer wants to cast his spells consecutively he needs a decent amount of knowledge. All the mana-obtaining process of MotN takes time, unlike MotW or Empowered Spells, which have a instantaneous effect.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-23-2007, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Final_Boss:
Ok, I'm going to repeat it one more time: Spectral Dragons are cr@p. The cr@pest necro creature, so why would you spend your Dark Energy on them instead on vampires/lichs? The answer is simple: because you don't know what are you talking about, just like most of necro haters, sorry. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

He wasn't suggesting that you take Spectral Dragons with your dark energy...just that you COULD. It was an example. Just pointing out the fact that a Necromancer isn't forced to return to town for anything other than learning new spells.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Most of mass spells and high level spells cost more than 10 points of mana, so necromancers need at least 2 points of knowledge (Conjure Phoenix costs 35 = 4 knowledge). Anyway, everybody thinks you just cast Mark of the Necromancer over a creature and booom! infinite mana for you. No, no, no, it costs 1/2 of you hero's initiative, and then the marked creature has to take damage. Sounds easy, but if, for example, you want to cast Phantom Forces the marked creature has to take 900 points of damage or be hit 18 times (considering you have 0 mana) in order to get the needed 18 spell points for it. How many turns will be your necromancer doing nothing till that? MotW is far more powerful. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

MotN is indeed VERY powerful. You're exaggerating your examples to benefit your argument FB. Early on, your Necromancer will have 1-3 knowledge (2 is a good medium). The value of MotN is in Raise Dead. Doing enough damage with Skeleton Archers & Zombies is quite easy to keep your mana full. Not to mention the fact that once you DO target a unit with MotN you can then cast direct damage spells on that target for nearly ZERO cost (most level 1&2 spells will only cost you one or 2 spell points after the mana recoup from MotN). Using Conjure Phoenix as an example is a bit extreme, don't you think? And concerning Mass spells...yes, they're VERY useful...but a low-level Necromancer is (or should be) smart enough to NOT cast mass spells until he's got the mana to cover them. At 20 spell points, he can easily cast a mass slow at the start of combat, then MotN and pummel one opponent to recoup the spell points.

You're also forgetting Arcane training. A very valuable skill for a Necromancer.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Not free anymore, those creatures cost dark energy. Anyway you are talking about necromancy, a racial ability. Inferno has gating, Haven has training, and so on. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very true, but also very wrong. While it does consume dark energy, it does NOT consume any gold or other resources. Thus freeing up the Necromancer to build his town to the maximum MUCH more easily than other factions. The only time I find myself buying the in-town troops for Necro is for town defense or just because I've got gold burning a hole in my pocket.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The 3 first necro creature tiers are cr@p for creeping (skeletons, zombies, ghosts), and necromancers have almost 0 AT, that is why MotN and Raise Dead is there. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, wrong again. Skeletons are not too bad, but how many players go around with regular skeletons? Skeleton Archers are VERY good units especially in the numbers they accumulate in. Zombies are decent meat shields, but Plague Zombies are VERY good meat shields. Having one large stack of plague zombies and several single stacks of ghosts is a very easy way of both protecting your skeleton archers/plague zombies AND turning your plague zombies into VERY good attackers. With only 4 single ghost losses you can turn your plague zombies' attack from 2 to 6. And with the PZ's weakening strike you can turn any enemy's stats to almost nothing pretty quickly while recouping your spell points. But that's just one example. In general, the Necro can creep VERY effectively with just the large stack of skeleton archers and single ghosts for protection. Sure, they're pretty fragile, but you'll get the incorporeal ability triggered quite often and you've got raise dead to recover any skeleton losses. The minimal ghost losses will be recovered via eternal servitude.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Overpowered this, overpowered that... but why? it is overpowered because you say it? I couldn't really say what school of magic is the best one. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a good spell school, but I certainly wouldn't say it's overpowered. At least not any more than Light is. In this I agree with you. The spell school is completely dependent upon what hero is wielding the spells.

Inferno015
09-23-2007, 02:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Final_Boss:
Ok, I'm going to repeat it one more time: Spectral Dragons are cr@p. The cr@pest necro creature, so why would you spend your Dark Energy on them instead on vampires/lichs? The answer is simple: because you don't know what are you talking about, just like most of necro haters, sorry. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Have you ever used the new Necromancy? About 5 Vampire Lords take the same amount of Dark Points as a Spectral Dragon. Now, even if Spectral Dragons are as you so neatly pointed out cr@p, 5 VLs against one of them...you decide.

True though, they are the weakest unit, but then so is all of Necro. But what sounds scarier, 300 Vampire Lords are 50 Spectral Dragons. Lets not disregard that it is a LV7 unit.

Of course if already have a nice and upcoming army you want to add to it. If you already have 40 VLs and no Spectral Dragons, then the VLs pay off to get.

Now I don't know why you think I am a Necro hater, probably because you hate me or something, but the fact is I actually liked Necro through the entire series and I always will. Their units are ****, but that is compenstaed for in raw number and powerful heroes.

Also the thing everyone keeps saying about infinite mana is absoulutely WRONG. Try getting 4 Knowledge with the Necromancer. I will tell you one thing, it isn't easy. And like Final_Boss here pointed out, many good spells need high mana. So what if you can cast low level spells infinite times. You cast a high level spell and find yourself in a tight situation with almost no mana reserve. I think the low Knowledge of Necrromancers is the reason that MOTN was put in.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-23-2007, 02:45 PM
Yes, it's difficult to get Knowledge for a Necromancer...but it's not THAT difficult. 15% chance, same as a Warlock. But I'm referring to Crystals of Revelation, Schools of Magic, or most commonly...one of the 12 artifacts that increase knowledge. With the fact that a Necromancer can more freely roam the map without having to retrace his steps to return to town as often, and you've got a hero that tends to get to artifacts more quickly than other factions. And due to the fact that he's not forced to purchase troops through his town, he also often has the gold available to purchase the artifacts from external Black Markets (or internal artifact merchants).

As for the good spells, yes they take more mana, but they also become available at a higher level for a hero. You've got to have some pretty bad luck to not get around 4 knowledge by the time you get your fifth level guild built.

And by the way, MotN was there since the beginning (of sorts). If you recall, it was originally Spirit Link and it was in the Dark school. Nival just made it easier to get to by putting it in the racial group and allowing you to take all 3 mass dark skills. It's not like necro was totally screwed before the Dark Energy change was put in.

PhoenixReborn06
09-23-2007, 08:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kranyum:
It comes to my notice that many people on these forums speak without having a clue about what they are talking about and that's just sad.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you trying to compete with Chuckles in who can sound the most arrogant?

Not everyone has played for as long as you apparently have.

@everyone: how did this necro overpowered/imbalanced discussion get into a skills thread? I guess if you want to talk about MOTN it's fine...

Xenofex_086
09-24-2007, 12:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Look, I'm not saying they're weak or that they WERE weak before the necromancy changes. I'm saying that several people here were griping about them being weak over and over again. Final_Boss being the most vocal...but hardly by himself. I was totally happy with what they brought to the table. While early on they were skeleton-heavy the other units were still very useful. Now it's more balanced across the board for them, but the units themselves haven't changed. I just find it funny that now people aren't complaining about them being a weak faction but rather an overpowered faction. I say it's neither, but rather in the middle and quite well balanced. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm saying that I'm surprised about the very existance of the claims "Necro is weak"... For me it's still imb as hell. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Spectral Dragons are cr@p </div></BLOCKQUOTE>They're weak compared to the others, but does Necro need strong Tier 7 creature? NO! And they're far from useless - they're excellent for absorbing retaliation attacks and drawing enemy fire, but the most valuable part IMO is that they save you the need of casting Weakness. For such a low price, that's what you get. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Most of mass spells and high level spells cost more than 10 points of mana, so necromancers need at least 2 points of knowledge (Conjure Phoenix costs 35 = 4 knowledge). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Enlightment saves the day! At level 20 I usually have a Necromancer with at least 5-6 Knowledge + 50% spell points from Intelligence. This is more than enough for the main curses. And then - MotN comes into play. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> easy, but if, for example, you want to cast Phantom Forces the marked creature has to take 900 points of damage or be hit 18 times (considering you have 0 mana) in order to get the needed 18 spell points for it. How many turns will be your necromancer doing nothing till that? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>So this is difficult, eh? How so? Cast MotN on the creature which is to attack the most powerful damage-dealer in the enemy army and voila - here we have a nice mana income. MotN on Vampires (especially Vampires with Lucretia) even has no side effects (dying creatures). I've never found myself in a situation, where the usage of MotN is difficult - on the contrary, the skill is rather lame. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The 3 first necro creature tiers are cr@p for creeping (skeletons, zombies, ghosts) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Are they now? The Skeletons quickly become arhers, so there's no problem with them (if you recieve the Skeleton Archers ability early, which is quite possible, even better). The Zombies are EXCELLENT tanks, far better than these mistakes, Horned Demons. They don't need to fight, just to sit tight and guard the Skeletons while the latter shoot. Put the Ghosts in front of the Skeletons too and voila - the creeps are pwnd (two stacks of Zombies, one stack of Ghosts and one stack of Skeleton Archers on the edge of the battlefield in short). What's the freakin' problem? Even if you have troubles creeping with these - the Vampires come to save the war soon enough.
EDIT: it seems C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s has already mentioned something similar - well, at least I'm not the only one who finds it obvious. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
About Dark Magic - the main problem here is that Necro is (more than) half-immune to it, while the opponents aren't. Take this - Inferno vs. Necro (many of my hot-seat games). Necro has Defense + Enlightment + Dark + Summoning + whatever while Inferno has Attack + Defense + Luck + Dark (mainly becouse Necro is not the only opponent on the map and Inferno surely benefits more from Dark than Destruction) + Logistics. The Familiars steal, like 70-80 spell points and the Necromancer if forced to cast MotN on the first creature (usually Spectral Dragons) which is to engage the Arch Devil (as the most heavy-handed from Inferno's army). From the very next round the Necromancer has enough spell points to start curse exchange with the Demon Lord. Of course the latter is soon in great debt, 'couse he can't cast Confusion, Slow, Blind, Frenzy and Puppet Master on the undeads while his army enjoys these goodies big time. Against Haven it's even easier (no Familiars). And the Dark school is quite powerful in general, I doubt that someone will dare to deny this.
Bah, whatever, there's more to say, but maybe later.
And btw sorry about the huge off-topic, but since the discussion had already started...

Kranyum
09-24-2007, 01:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">(if you recieve the Skeleton Archers ability early, which is quite possible, even better). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The ability Skeleton Archers no longer exists after patch 2.1

The new necromancy system involves Dark Energy...

What version are you playing?

phoenixzs
09-24-2007, 03:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Final_Boss:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">That Mark of the necromancer thing totally changed everything.Whats the idea of having high knowledge I would like to ask? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
As I said before, most of powerful spells (mass spells/high level spells) cost more than 10 points of mana, so if a necromancer wants to cast his spells consecutively he needs a decent amount of knowledge. All the mana-obtaining process of MotN takes time, unlike MotW or Empowered Spells, which have a instantaneous effect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah true, I am not ignoring the fact that they need mana but ? still dont like the way that MoTN somehow overrides the whole knowledge system.Also its nearly a must for necromancer not a choice anymore.

Perhaps new expansion will tell who these things are going to be,I will just wait probably.

Xenofex_086
09-24-2007, 03:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kranyum:
What version are you playing? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Up there I'm talking about 1.3 (it was similar in 1.4 I think) - since there are statements that Necropolis was weak back then (or I totally get some posts' meanings wrong). The Dark Energy entirely spares you any creeping problems (provided that such problems even exist, which I find hard to prove).

Final_Boss
09-24-2007, 06:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Have you ever used the new Necromancy? About 5 Vampire Lords take the same amount of Dark Points as a Spectral Dragon. Now, even if Spectral Dragons are as you so neatly pointed out cr@p, 5 VLs against one of them...you decide. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
5vs1 means nothing, the value must be measured by their importnace in a full battle. The more vampires you have, the harder to kill they become, as simple as that. A big stack of archlichs is wonderful too, just pick tactics or split them into two different stacks. If you raise spectral dragons you just get a few weak tier 7 creatures, so lichs or vampires all the way. Hell, even a mastodontic stack of ghosts is better.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">They're weak compared to the others, but does Necro need strong Tier 7 creature? NO! And they're far from useless - they're excellent for absorbing retaliation attacks and drawing enemy fire, but the most valuable part IMO is that they save you the need of casting Weakness. For such a low price, that's what you get. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
For such a lo... hahaha wait a second (Final_boss falls to the ground and laughs like a lunatic, then he starts jumping all over the place, while still laughing and crying at the same time)

(15 minutes later) Oh god, that was funny, really! 14.000gold, 40wood, 30ore, 35mercury if you want spectral dragons in your army. 17.000gold, 40wood, 40ore, 45mercury counting the Dragon Tombstone, the horde building, which supposedly helps to match standard tier 7's power. That is the more expensive tier 7 dwelling of the whole game... the more expensive and the one which produces the weakest tier 7 creature, too. Ridiculous.

Do they absorb retaliations and cast advanced weakness? Hurray! All that for only an amazingly extraordinary amount of resources! Have you ever though about fast-upgrading your other creatures instead of wasting your money in a flying obstacle? It works, believe me lol. Almost every necro creature gets 50% stronger once upgraded.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Enlightment saves the day! At level 20 I usually have a Necromancer with at least 5-6 Knowledge + 50% spell points from Intelligence. This is more than enough for the main curses. And then - MotN comes into play. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, yeah... but Enlightment has a 8% chance for necromancers. Some times it just doesn't appear in level ups.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">So this is difficult, eh? How so? Cast MotN on the creature which is to attack the most powerful damage-dealer in the enemy army and voila - here we have a nice mana income. MotN on Vampires (especially Vampires with Lucretia) even has no side effects (dying creatures). I've never found myself in a situation, where the usage of MotN is difficult - on the contrary, the skill is rather lame. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Maybe you would find it difficult if you were facing a human player who has a minimum clue about what is he doing, like not giving you the chance of hitting the marked creature.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Are they now? The Skeletons quickly become arhers, so there's no problem with them (if you recieve the Skeleton Archers ability early, which is quite possible, even better). The Zombies are EXCELLENT tanks, far better than these mistakes, Horned Demons. They don't need to fight, just to sit tight and guard the Skeletons while the latter shoot. Put the Ghosts in front of the Skeletons too and voila - the creeps are pwnd (two stacks of Zombies, one stack of Ghosts and one stack of Skeleton Archers on the edge of the battlefield in short). What's the freakin' problem? Even if you have troubles creeping with these - the Vampires come to save the war soon enough. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
For creeping you need good damage dealers, some times only fast creatures + powerful hero abilities, but necropolis initially has nothing of those. In addition necromancers have almost 0 AT and just 10 points of mana, so necro has a hard time killing neutrals without MotN+RD combo. Vampires come in week 2, for then most of factions should have killed things like grim raiders, archmages, master hunters, and so on.

Xenofex_086
09-24-2007, 08:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Oh god, that was funny, really! 14.000gold, 40wood, 30ore, 35mercury if you want spectral dragons in your army. 17.000gold, 40wood, 40ore, 45mercury counting the Dragon Tombstone, the horde building, which supposedly helps to match standard tier 7's power. That is the more expensive tier 7 dwelling of the whole game... the more expensive and the one which produces the weakest tier 7 creature, too. Ridiculous. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I think I was meaning that the dragons themselves are cheap, not their building. If we talk about this famous structure, cool, I agree that it should be cheaper. But you can still continue laughing if you want. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Yeah, yeah... but Enlightment has a 8% chance for necromancers. Some times it just doesn't appear in level ups.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>Is that it? Well, choose Zoltan, if you want to be sure that you'll have Enlightment. Not much of a problem. In any case - 8% makes it appear often enough, except if you suffer from Expert Misfortune in the real life too. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Maybe you would find it difficult if you were facing a human player who has a minimum clue about what is he doing, like not giving you the chance of hitting the marked creature. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Explain to me, how's this mastermind of yours, which is obviously 10k times smarter than the other people, will force his creatures not to retaliate, for example? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> For creeping you need good damage dealers, some times only fast creatures + powerful hero abilities, but necropolis initially has nothing of those. In addition necromancers have almost 0 AT and just 10 points of mana, so necro has a hard time killing neutrals without MotN+RD combo. Vampires come in week 2, for then most of factions should have killed things like grim raiders, archmages, master hunters, and so on.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>Attacking Grim Riders, Archmages and Master Hunters during week 1?!!! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I'm... confused. Pray tell - how do you achieve this with any of the other factions?
Damn, now I realize that I had had a hard time creeping with Necro all along. How was this knowledge hidden from me until now - this I can not tell...

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-24-2007, 01:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhoenixReborn06:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kranyum:
It comes to my notice that many people on these forums speak without having a clue about what they are talking about and that's just sad.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you trying to compete with Chuckles in who can sound the most arrogant? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

HEY! I resent that. I can only recall one post of mine that came off as arrogant, and it certainly wasn't meant that way. And I appologized afterwards. My entire goal is to help out the new players. That's one of the main reasons I'm even ON this board.

~edit~ Thanks for the clarification Phoenix...glad you were joking. I'd hate to tarnish my sterling reputation. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif*grin*

Inferno015
09-24-2007, 01:27 PM
Try using your precious liches against large numbers of upgraded LV7 units. Vampires don't go far in the late game (unless you use them correctly) as they are but a tier 4 unit (though not a bad one I admit). Okay, you may have backed those up. But Skelly Archers...they suck. Zombies...don't get me started. Ghosts are great for drawing fires from towers and arhcers. Wraiths...no better than most other tier 6 units unless you are facing 1 tier 7 creature in which case, hooray. So other than strong LV4 and 5 creatures, Necros are pretty normal. And lets be honest, other factions have strong creatures too. Wizards have the Rakshasa or whatever they are called. Knights have Paladins and Archangels. Sylvan has hunters and defensive treants to protect hunters. Dungeon has strong every unit (but low on the defensive side). Dwarves are great for combat in almost every tier. Inferno has tier 6 casters and Archdevils that call forth tier 6 casters. If you ever face an actually worthwhile opponent, you won't win by using Liches and Vampires.

As for Ultimate Skills, I was thinkning the following:

Knight
Divine Inspiration
Always have high morale.

Wizard
Arcane Ominessence
Same + mass spells.

Necromancer
Howl of Terror
All enemy creatures minus 6 morale (for listed duration) and minus 6 defence (for one turn )

Inferno
Call of Urgash
OK

Sylvan
Absolute Luck
Include casters.

Warlock
Rage of the Elements
All empowered spells deal +40% damage.

Dwarves
Absolute Protection
Every time a Rune is used on a creature, that creature gains +2 (or maybe 3) defense for the duration of combat.

Final_Boss
09-24-2007, 03:14 PM
Inferno015, unfortunately this game suffers from a very sad problem: almost every multiplayer match ends time before you can afford tier 7 creatures. What does this mean? It means that maybe vampires and lichs are no match for tier 7 creatures, but 99% of the time you aren't going to face one of those, so who cares?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Attacking Grim Riders, Archmages and Master Hunters during week 1?!!! I'm... confused. Pray tell - how do you achieve this with any of the other factions?
Damn, now I realize that I had had a hard time creeping with Necro all along. How was this knowledge hidden from me until now - this I can not tell... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I posted long ago some replays in a spanish forum. If I find the thread I will put here the link, if not, I will make new replays just for you http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PhoenixReborn06
09-24-2007, 10:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Final_Boss:
Inferno015, unfortunately this game suffers from a very sad problem: almost every multiplayer match ends time before you can afford tier 7 creatures. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is entirely map dependent. There are plenty of large multiplayer maps...circle of winter and battlezone for example. They are even accessible on battle for honor.

Also small maps like heritage of deleb may have level 7's as guards.

Rumor has it they are reducing level 7 unit cost further. I agree it won't help much if the resource requirements are still high...but since you value the bone/spectral dragon so low (rightly so, it's very weak) you won't be spending the resources/de anyway.

Final_Boss
09-25-2007, 06:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhoenixReborn06:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Final_Boss:
Inferno015, unfortunately this game suffers from a very sad problem: almost every multiplayer match ends time before you can afford tier 7 creatures. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is entirely map dependent. There are plenty of large multiplayer maps...circle of winter and battlezone for example. They are even accessible on battle for honor.

Also small maps like heritage of deleb may have level 7's as guards.

Rumor has it they are reducing level 7 unit cost further. I agree it won't help much if the resource requirements are still high...but since you value the bone/spectral dragon so low (rightly so, it's very weak) you won't be spending the resources/de anyway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Large multiplayer maps? This game has enough lag with only 3 players. 4 players or more is only for lunatics.

Tier 7 guards are just like any other guard: you can kill them with a cheap combination of creatures and hero abilities. We are talking about armies, where those strong creatures come in a single stack, backed up by a hero and his other troops and controlled by a human player, not the silly AI.

And the problem is not the cost of tier 7 creatures (in some cases it is), the problem is the cost of their dwellings. I mean, the cost of those buildings must be high of course, but not prohibitive. The classic example: Would you buy the Dragon Graveyard to get 1 bone dragon, or in the other hand would you spend those resources in upgrading your existing stacks of lichs, vampires and ghosts? Even if you are playing a map where battles between players will not take place till late month 2, it is better to develop a second town and transform its low tier creatures into undead ones.
7 or 8 bone dragons will not save you, double the amount of low level creatures will do.

Jolly-Joker
09-25-2007, 07:25 AM
I disagree here, at least for the game as a whole. Many upgrade costs are pretty high as well while level 7 dwelling prices are not THAT high. in most cases it's a toss-up.
Furthermore problems are differing depending on town and race. For Necro it's the level 7 that is pretty unaffordable. For Sylvans things look completely different though and you WILL see those green snakes. As you will see Devils as a rule and Fire Dragons. Furthermore you have Citadel and Castle to build - not so cheap either.
Second, for the game as such it's pretty irrelevant whether people play only small maps in MP: if they are limiting themselves (understandably) for time constraints they have to live with the constraints this puts onto the gaming experience as well.

H5forem
09-25-2007, 09:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
In regards to artificer, there will be a modest change to it. No more returning to town to refresh for higher knowledge stat...it grows with you (at least last I heard...it's possible it's changed) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
that can sometimes work agains you...

I foud myself in the position of creating micro-artifacts with Crown of Sar-Issus or Dragon Talon Crown for higher knowledge, but use Lion Crown in battle for extra luck and morale or Turban of Enlightenment.

-----------------------

Luck is the only skill(effect) that need to be balanced.

+50% damage will be just fine (+50 initiative from morale, +50 damage from luck)

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-25-2007, 12:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by H5forem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
In regards to artificer, there will be a modest change to it. No more returning to town to refresh for higher knowledge stat...it grows with you (at least last I heard...it's possible it's changed) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
that can sometimes work agains you...

I foud myself in the position of creating micro-artifacts with Crown of Sar-Issus or Dragon Talon Crown for higher knowledge, but use Lion Crown in battle for extra luck and morale or Turban of Enlightenment.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I'm wondering how that's going to work too. I was thinking that maybe when you create a mini-arti, it's with the stats you have upon creation. But on level-ups and any knowledge stat gains, the mini-artis will automatically improve upon what they were at the time of creation. So knowledge buffs would still come into play. Having them get downgraded when you take off the knowledge-arti would negate the boost and the purpose of changing things. Time will tell. :O)

Inferno015
09-25-2007, 06:28 PM
Hmm, interesting. +50% damage might make the game a little interesting, but at the same time, it makes the Luck skill not worth getting. I think maybe the damage should go up as you gain Mastery Levels in luck. That might be interesting and make the ability worthwhile. So at no mastery, extra luck does say +25%, Basic Mastery +50%, Advanced +75% and Expert +90% or something like that.

Moragauth
09-26-2007, 05:43 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif That's a good idea IMO.

H5forem
09-27-2007, 03:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Inferno015:
Hmm, interesting. +50% damage might make the game a little interesting, but at the same time, it makes the Luck skill not worth getting. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think it does. +50% damage is good (+100% is unbalanced)

And you take Luck for Magic Resistance, Soldier's Luck, Warlock's Luck, Elven Luck, Dead Man's Curse, Swarming Gate, Dwarven Luck even Resourcefulness is good for a secondary heroe.

Kranyum
09-29-2007, 07:18 AM
There are still a lot of skills there that are just sub-par. I sure hope they get some revising in TotE, because I think it's the last chance we'll get to make them worthy.

Just a non exhaustive list from my part:

Arcane Intuition: hero should learn spells from his own creatures. That made this skill worthwhile. Now it's just redundant

First Aid: the tent should heal more than 3 times. Maybe it should only resurrect 3 times and then just simply heal.

Plague Tent: never used it so I cannot really say, but it seems it has the same problem as first aid? Does it have only 3 shots also?

Recruitment: it sucks that the hero must be stationed in town. Maybe make it Heroes 4 style: the hero becomes governor for a town and increases the growth there

Estates: the gold bonus is pretty low: only 7000/month. Maybe it should increase with the level of the hero: say (250 + 25*level)

Dark Revelation: What is the use of this? one extra stat point at the cost of a useless skill point? I don't get it? 2 level ups could be better?

Master of Earthblood: ok stronger fire trap is good, but I did not know earthquake was affected by spell power. Maybe it can affect the new obstacle spells?

Unstoppable Charge: pretty worthless compared to other ultimates. Maybe getting good morale all the time could be comparable with the rest?

That's all I can think of right now...

Moragauth
09-29-2007, 08:33 AM
I am hoping that elemental damage will be improved from 20% to perhaps 40% so Rage of the Elements is actually worth it. My verdict is not yet out on Empowered spells (i.e. if they need to be boosted to 100% or not.)

Kranyum
09-29-2007, 09:27 AM
if Chuckles can so easily speak with Fabrice, why not suggest a review to these skills here.
It cannot hurt.

H5forem
09-29-2007, 09:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moragauth:
My verdict is not yet out on Empowered spells (i.e. if they need to be boosted to 100% or not.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
100% is way to much... with Warlock's Luck it will be overpowered.

with 19 Spell Power (easy to get) and Emerald Slippers (easy to find) the damage can be:

Meteor Shower: 400*1,5*1,5*2 = 1800 5x5 damage (with 100% empowered - 2400 5x5 damage)

Implosion: 800*1,5*1,5*2 = 3600 damage (with 100% empowered - 4800 damage)

is kinda scary if you have a lucky spell. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Inferno015
09-29-2007, 10:26 AM
Maybe 19 Spellpower is easy to get, but you won't be quick to get it. It means you have to go up about 15 levels and hope for Spellpower every time. Sure it is made a lot easier with adventure points but those only give you one or two Spellpower. As for 2400 damage Meteor SpellI think you miscalculated. Damage on expert is 20+20xpower. 19x20= 380+20 = 400. Your base power was 1800. Hmmm. Implosion is I believe exactly twice as much, so at nineteen, 800 damge, but only one target. By the time you get it, your opponent should have at least 10 Level 7 and 800 damage is only enough to kill 3 or 4 Level 7 creatures, stop to mention all the other creatures your opponent should have. Now 100% Empowered, perhaps it is a little too devastating. Meteors at 800 a pop can truly devastate enemies for low mana costs. But then, that's not what Empowered Spells do. They make the Spell Strgoner yes, but make it cost more (under most circumstances). The perecentage is I think even, just the damage rate is quicker (what I mean is that total maximum damage is the same but empowered spells inflict there max damage faster). And Warlocks are limited by mana.

Lucky spells, are only lucky. I rarely ever get luck, but I won't comment because some people are luckier than others.

If you are really playing the game (on heroic like everyone else) you'll find that you should be pretty balanced especially if you're playing the absolute right way (5+ enemies). Play a skirmish like that with Warlocks and try to win with those almighty super-duper spells (sarcasm of course).

H5forem
09-29-2007, 11:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Inferno015:
Maybe 19 Spellpower is easy to get, but you won't be quick to get it. It means you have to go up about 15 levels and hope for Spellpower every time. Sure it is made a lot easier with adventure points but those only give you one or two Spellpower. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
With adventure points, enlightenment and artifacts is not that hard...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Inferno015:
As for 2400 damage Meteor SpellI think you miscalculated. Damage on expert is 20+20xpower. 19x20= 380+20 = 400. Your base power was 1800. Hmmm. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

400 * 1,5 (Empowered Spells) * 1,5 (Emerald Slippers) * 2 (Lucky Spell) = 1800 damage

so that is 1800, and if you have a chain there it might go even higher.

Moragauth
09-29-2007, 11:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by H5forem:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moragauth:
My verdict is not yet out on Empowered spells (i.e. if they need to be boosted to 100% or not.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
100% is way to much... with Warlock's Luck it will be overpowered.

with 19 Spell Power (easy to get) and Emerald Slippers (easy to find) the damage can be:

Meteor Shower: 400*1,5*1,5*2 = 1800 5x5 damage (with 100% empowered - 2400 5x5 damage)

Implosion: 800*1,5*1,5*2 = 3600 damage (with 100% empowered - 4800 damage)

is kinda scary if you have a lucky spell. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, so long as you pay double the mana cost. The Warlock as it is has very low mana, unless you take Enlightenment. This means sacrificing some other skill, and the issue will only be overcome at high levels even then. The Warlock has few but powerful troops. Unless you are going on a pure might route, you need her extreme power.

As for Warlock's Luck, all casters but Necropolis can get it now. So they have to take Sorcery. They were going to anyway... I would even be happy with 75%, but 50% is meager for a skill that drains double the mana.

Inferno015
09-29-2007, 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by H5forem:
400 * 1,5 (Empowered Spells) * 1,5 (Emerald Slippers) * 2 (Lucky Spell) = 1800 damage
so that is 1800, and if you have a chain there it might go even higher. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, I thought you meant that as a base power. 1800 IF you get lucky. Okay, so 900. Sure it is still a lot. But you need Emerald Slippers which basically effects only Spikes, Meteor and Implosion.


Okay, can we settle for +75% Empowered Spells or is that unfair too (no sarcasm this time, I really want your opinion)

Moragauth
09-29-2007, 05:13 PM
75% would be fine.