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XyZspineZyX
03-31-2003, 12:24 AM
A Brief Critique Of RS Weapons

I've just been browsing the weapons pages; for a game that prides itself on realism they make some glaring mistakes.



==========
"The 5.56mm L85A1 AR is the standard infantry weapon of the British Army. Its bullpup design trades accuracy for maneuverability."

That's wrong - the L85 is one of the most accurate assault rifles in the world. Because of its bullpup configuration it can fit a longer barrel in - in fact, the barrel, at 518mm, is 68 mm longer than that of the AK5, itself a very accurate weapon. Most of the complaints about the L85 centre on its unreliability - it's basically a match rifle painted green... Lovely to fire, though.



==========
"[The AK-47's] accuracy after the second shot is questionable as it spreads far and wide, even hitting the ground next to your feet! But the first shot is laser-accurate. By single and double tapping hostiles, you are sure to come out on top. Aim for the chest, and double tap. This gun is superior to most every other gun for medium-long range."

Now that's just silly. There are masses of assault rifles far more accurate than the AK-47. Its main advantage is that it's incredibly reliable and virtually indestructible, its accuracy is hardly ever cited as a prime consideration.



==========
"Once called "Free world's assault rifle", the FNC incorporates the best ideas and characteristics of Israeli Galil, Soviet AK and Belgian FAL. It uses 5.56mm NATO rounds with a magazine capacity of 30 rounds."

That's nonsense. I think they're confusing it with the development of the Swedish AK5: When looking for a successor to the AK4 (basically an HK G3) the Swedish military looked at (amongst others) the FNC and the Galil; the FNC won, and after extensive modification (including the removal of the 3-round burst mode, a modified butt and foregrip, strengthened components and an enlarged trigger guard) was brought into service as the AK5. Some of the modifications (most notably the trigger guard) were adopted by FN Herstal in the later production of the FNPOSThttp://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_post.aspHTTP/1.0C. Apart from the sort of influences that are only to be expected in developing a firearm, there's no evidence that the FNC was specifically based on any of those weapons.

Oh, and the model seems to be wrong - particularly the safety assembly, dust cover and absent cocking handle... The real steel's lovely to fire, though.



==========
"[The P90] was developed in the late 1980s and may be referred as a forerunner of the PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) concept."

Actually, it was the PDW concept... It was billed as the P90 Personal Defence Weapon. I do love this little beast - I wrote a proposal for the Swedish Air Force, suggesting that people like us comms guys be issued the P90 rather than the huge bloody AK5. I actually got to visit FN Herstal in Belgium to have play with it - that showroom is HEAVEN.

Any game with a P90 must be good - it's a lovely gun.



==========
"Belgian Pistol 5.7mm"

OK, now I'm just nitpicking, but it's technically called the FN Herstal Five-seveN...



==========
"[The M249 Minimi] packs tremendous firepower, but is only accurate from a crouched stationary position. Used this way, it is an effective covering weapon."

As a covering weapon, it's more useful fired prone from a bipod, but it can be fired just like an assault rifle from the shoulder. In fact, up at my squadron there was a guy who could fire it one-handed, like a pistol. He didn't hit much, but just watching him fire it was pretty impressive.

I reckon I'd better leave it at that, lest I awaken the wrath of this most august

XyZspineZyX
03-31-2003, 12:24 AM
A Brief Critique Of RS Weapons

I've just been browsing the weapons pages; for a game that prides itself on realism they make some glaring mistakes.



==========
"The 5.56mm L85A1 AR is the standard infantry weapon of the British Army. Its bullpup design trades accuracy for maneuverability."

That's wrong - the L85 is one of the most accurate assault rifles in the world. Because of its bullpup configuration it can fit a longer barrel in - in fact, the barrel, at 518mm, is 68 mm longer than that of the AK5, itself a very accurate weapon. Most of the complaints about the L85 centre on its unreliability - it's basically a match rifle painted green... Lovely to fire, though.



==========
"[The AK-47's] accuracy after the second shot is questionable as it spreads far and wide, even hitting the ground next to your feet! But the first shot is laser-accurate. By single and double tapping hostiles, you are sure to come out on top. Aim for the chest, and double tap. This gun is superior to most every other gun for medium-long range."

Now that's just silly. There are masses of assault rifles far more accurate than the AK-47. Its main advantage is that it's incredibly reliable and virtually indestructible, its accuracy is hardly ever cited as a prime consideration.



==========
"Once called "Free world's assault rifle", the FNC incorporates the best ideas and characteristics of Israeli Galil, Soviet AK and Belgian FAL. It uses 5.56mm NATO rounds with a magazine capacity of 30 rounds."

That's nonsense. I think they're confusing it with the development of the Swedish AK5: When looking for a successor to the AK4 (basically an HK G3) the Swedish military looked at (amongst others) the FNC and the Galil; the FNC won, and after extensive modification (including the removal of the 3-round burst mode, a modified butt and foregrip, strengthened components and an enlarged trigger guard) was brought into service as the AK5. Some of the modifications (most notably the trigger guard) were adopted by FN Herstal in the later production of the FNPOSThttp://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_post.aspHTTP/1.0C. Apart from the sort of influences that are only to be expected in developing a firearm, there's no evidence that the FNC was specifically based on any of those weapons.

Oh, and the model seems to be wrong - particularly the safety assembly, dust cover and absent cocking handle... The real steel's lovely to fire, though.



==========
"[The P90] was developed in the late 1980s and may be referred as a forerunner of the PDW (Personal Defense Weapon) concept."

Actually, it was the PDW concept... It was billed as the P90 Personal Defence Weapon. I do love this little beast - I wrote a proposal for the Swedish Air Force, suggesting that people like us comms guys be issued the P90 rather than the huge bloody AK5. I actually got to visit FN Herstal in Belgium to have play with it - that showroom is HEAVEN.

Any game with a P90 must be good - it's a lovely gun.



==========
"Belgian Pistol 5.7mm"

OK, now I'm just nitpicking, but it's technically called the FN Herstal Five-seveN...



==========
"[The M249 Minimi] packs tremendous firepower, but is only accurate from a crouched stationary position. Used this way, it is an effective covering weapon."

As a covering weapon, it's more useful fired prone from a bipod, but it can be fired just like an assault rifle from the shoulder. In fact, up at my squadron there was a guy who could fire it one-handed, like a pistol. He didn't hit much, but just watching him fire it was pretty impressive.

I reckon I'd better leave it at that, lest I awaken the wrath of this most august

XyZspineZyX
04-04-2003, 08:49 PM
Bump - just wanted to see if anyone had any comments on this.

XyZspineZyX
04-04-2003, 08:59 PM
Not only are some of those descriptions iffy at best, their implementation of weapons is all over the board. I've given up in the developers really having much of a clue regarding weapon performance or really even caring for that matter.

You have 9mm MP5's with more recoil in the hands of a trained operator in game than an MP5/10 does in a woman's hands in real life.

And you have MP5/10's with as much recoil as the M4.

And you have an M4 with recoil of near silly proportions, compared to all its siblings.

And you have all of the pistols recovering much slower than most of the long arms (rather than recovering fast but having a huge minimum ret to portray lack of accuracy, like the PDW).


There's hell of a lot more wrong with the weapons than just the descriptions.




-Al
____________________________________

Rules of drawing -
A. If you're the bad guy, draw and shoot first.
B. If you're the good guy, draw second and shoot first.
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XyZspineZyX
04-04-2003, 09:52 PM
"Belgian Pistol 5.7mm"

"OK, now I'm just nitpicking, but it's technically called the FN Herstal Five-seveN..."

to answer that i believe the AP Army was renamed due to some legalities, but yes the AP army is the five seven

and i thoguht the AK5 was the fnc?
guess not

XyZspineZyX
04-04-2003, 09:58 PM
ScientificData wrote:
- "Belgian Pistol 5.7mm"
-
- "OK, now I'm just nitpicking, but it's technically
- called the FN Herstal Five-seveN..."
-
- to answer that i believe the AP Army was renamed due
- to some legalities, but yes the AP army is the five
- seven


Copyright reasons, I presume; just like the sods renamed the F2000 in that sneaking game, Splinter wossname.


- and i thoguht the AK5 was the fnc?
- guess not


The AK5 started out as an FNC and was then heavily modified; the main modifications were:

* Changed foregrip
* Changed stock, new folding mechanism
* Removed 3-round burst capability
* Sturdier construction, particularly the cocking handle
* Green finish rather than original black
* Redesigned mag release
* Slightly modified mechanism to accomodate the Swedish climate
* Changed trigger guard to allow use with heavy gloves.

Several of this, notably the trigger guard, have been implemented in current production FNCs.

Lovely gun, really lovely.

XyZspineZyX
04-04-2003, 10:52 PM
I'm sorry but as a gamer I don't really care about the weapons I use,,, as long as it shoots, and causes massive internal injury and painful death,, it works for me,,,, Gun Information is the last thing I would think about when I'm raiding a building, and the only few times I do think about firearms is if my gun has enough power to penatrate an opposing team member's body armor.


http://bender.hypermart.net/images/bender.gif


"Kiss my shiny metalic ***"

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 12:22 AM
You don't have to know - or care - about real firearms to realise that the M4, say, is wildly unstable and recovers too slowly to be of any use. You want to pick a weaponm you can wield effectively even if you are "only a gamer" and don't care about the realism of the tools at your disposal, or the characters you are playing.

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 01:02 AM
Furry, 'sat you from the SWAT 3 forums? If so, welcome welcome.

furrycat wrote:
- You don't have to know - or care - about real
- firearms to realise that the M4, say, is wildly
- unstable and recovers too slowly to be of any use.
- You want to pick a weaponm you can wield effectively
- even if you are "only a gamer" and don't care about
- the realism of the tools at your disposal, or the
- characters you are playing.

Even better if you do have a bit of real working knowledge about real firearms and can actually select a weapon on the same critera as you would in real life. Not all "gamers" care. But many do, especially when they want to be immersed and especially when poor weapon balancing affects their gameplay and choices.

At any rate, the M4's recovery is actually one of the best of the assault rifles. Its reticle closes as fast as some of the SMG's. Its recoil is pretty pronounced however... but no worse than the silly MP5/10, with the same recovery and stability, but doing way less damage-- making it absolutely useless, even though it's actually the weapon of choice for both Rainbow in the novel and the FBI HRT.



-Al
____________________________________

Rules of drawing -
A. If you're the bad guy, draw and shoot first.
B. If you're the good guy, draw second and shoot first.
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XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 01:07 AM
I agree that the M4 is modeled way incorrectly. The recoil on an M4, and any AR based weapon is extremly light. My car-15 (11.5" barrel) is very easy to shoot walking under rapid fire. The ak47 is not laser accurate, and I think its funny that the programmers think it is. I can get my buddies to group about 5" at 100yds off of bags, and that aint great. The biggest advantage the ak47 has over all other assualt rifles is that it takes a welding torch to get it to jam http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 01:39 AM
JESUS! Finally people that know about firearms!!!

Duffman
With the R6 series since 1997

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 02:03 AM
I know, ain't it great?

Re. the earlier comment about the MP5/10 being used by the FBI HRT, that's spot on. Read the rather brilliant Cold Zero, it's a great book. Can't remember the author, I'm afraid.

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 02:12 AM
Perry_AWM wrote:
- I know, ain't it great?
-
- Re. the earlier comment about the MP5/10 being used
- by the FBI HRT, that's spot on. Read the rather
- brilliant Cold Zero, it's a great book. Can't
- remember the author, I'm afraid.
-
-Speaking of the 10mm, I am quite sure it is the FBI that invented it. Its a very powerful cartridge for a semi-auto pistol. Infact, its so powerful that it was deemed to much for FBI carry, and then came along the .40SW. Less powder, shortened case, same bullet, and viola. Powerful, yet managable. Still, some think the .40S&W and the .40 slow&weak. hehe. Only a .45acp for me. Big bullets know how to have fun

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 02:18 AM
LOL!

I still have a soft spot for the 5.7 family - they're just so cuddly. Besides, now that I'm no longer in the military my only targets are rabbits and cardboard, so stopping power doesn't bother me.

Non Levitas Tolero Fatui

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 02:26 AM
furrycat wrote:
- You don't have to know - or care - about real
- firearms to realise that the M4, say, is wildly
- unstable and recovers too slowly to be of any use.
- You want to pick a weaponm you can wield effectively
- even if you are "only a gamer" and don't care about
- the realism of the tools at your disposal, or the
- characters you are playing.

This is like one of those Director's Commentary in DVD movies. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://bender.hypermart.net/images/bender.gif


"Kiss my shiny metalic ***"

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 03:23 AM
Well considering how large the R6 arsenal is, I'd say they did a great job. However I do agree that a lot of the first person modeling is Way off.. The mp5 is massive on screen, and a lot of the other weapons just don't look 'right'. Alot of them are dead on though.. G36 for example. I have a lot of mixed feelings on the weapons, because the amazingness of the effects, and most of the weapons balances out all my bad feelings towards the ones that were done poorly...

Anyway if UBI really wants this game to be on the level of success that valve has in the FPS market they need to keep releasing patches. Patches keep the community alive, and with every 1 the game gets close to perfection. I just hope they listen to our suggestions, and aknowledge our role in this game.

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 06:20 AM
Perry_AWM wrote:
- Read the rather
- brilliant Cold Zero, it's a great book. Can't
- remember the author, I'm afraid.

Christopher Whitcomb. He also seems to have become a bit of a FBI HRT PR frontman and advisor of all-matters-counter-terror to the news media the last couple of years. He was the one that hosted Joan Lunden on the episode of Behind Closed Doors featuring the HRT. Very cool segment. Joan shoots the MP5/10 much better than we could ever hope to in Raven Shield.

Now if I can actually drag my lazy butt to read the copy of Cold Zero that's been on my desk for who knows how long.




-Al
____________________________________

Rules of drawing -
A. If you're the bad guy, draw and shoot first.
B. If you're the good guy, draw second and shoot first.
&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://alliu.best.vwh.net/HRTLogo-tiny.jpg'</script>&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 06:35 AM
Shed wrote:
-
- Speaking of the 10mm, I am quite sure it is the FBI that
- invented it. Its a very powerful cartridge for a semi-
- auto pistol. Infact, its so powerful that it was deemed
- to much for FBI carry, and then came along the .40SW.

I think the 10mm was kicked around by a few different parties, but the FBI was the one to adopt it with any real success. They weren't the ones to actually invent it, however.

The 10mm proved to kick way too hard than was practical, and the FBI promptly developed a downgraded version. Which then prompted the creation of the .40, basically the same thing in a more efficient package, and usable in medium framed pistols.

The 10mm is still being used in the MP5/10 in this downgraded variant, today. I'm not really sure why the HRT doesn't just switch over to the MP5/40 use a much more popular ammo (that the rest of the agency uses anyway) and be done with it. I guess no real need since what they have works.

-Al
____________________________________

Rules of drawing -
A. If you're the bad guy, draw and shoot first.
B. If you're the good guy, draw second and shoot first.
&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://alliu.best.vwh.net/HRTLogo-tiny.jpg'</script>&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 06:46 AM
Well , its a game - one thats more realistic that most others , but its still a game . It dosent have to be 100% perfect on the details of every weapon to be fun . I admit there are problems , but nothing to totally ruin the game. The only thing that bothers me more than others is the "silencer dynamics" its totally , and utterly wrong . Simple point bieng - silencers do NOT require sub-sonic ammo - therefore the power should NOT be cut as drasticlly as they did .



Message Edited on 04/05/0312:47AM by OMG45

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 06:51 AM
i think the weapon models look good, the mp5 does look rather big on screen, but then again its a smaller gunn and it would be closer to you than a longer gun wouldent it?


actually nm, that doesnt make sense

oh well the guns look good

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 07:06 AM
"""The ak47 is not laser accurate, and I think its funny that the programmers think it is. I can get my buddies to group about 5" at 100yds off of bags, and that aint great. The biggest advantage the ak47 has over all other assualt rifles is that it takes a welding torch to get it to jam http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-----------------------------------------------------------

there is some Russian solders in chechnya who can snipe with AK up to 500 meters.

i have AK74 (very accurate, less recoil) when i'm was in army. So i did't have a chance to use 47. But peoples who use it say it very accurate and deadly on single shot.

i think developers right on this one... Don't forget that most of the AK47 on west market not real "made in USSR", but cheap Asian or East Europe copy.

I so programm about AK47 on history chanell. They sad real AK cost like 4-5 time more (if you manage to find one in US).

sorry for my English guys.

AKM74

Message Edited on 04/05/0306:13AM by AKM74

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 07:07 AM
About silencers- It would be nice if subsonic ammo was a choice (you can choose between FMJ and JHP). Also I notice that the silencers add to accuracy sometimes- I've never used one of even seen one (back off ATF!)but isn't that completely backwards? I could see someone coming up with a National Match Silencer or something that didn't take away accuracy, but I don't see how it could add.
That said I love the game despite it's flaws. Although I wish the M-14 was a little beefier, it looks like a mini-14 when someone else is carrying it, and the reciever sticks up too far when you are carrying it (I own an M1A, so I can't help but use the M-14, and I loved the Rogue Spear box with the White camo M-14).

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 07:18 AM
With all this talk about weapon realism,wouldnt be nice to be able to get up and over a small ledge or through a broken picture window.How about movement realism. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 07:28 AM
furrycat wrote:
- You don't have to know - or care - about real
- firearms to realise that the M4, say, is wildly
- unstable and recovers too slowly to be of any use.
- You want to pick a weaponm you can wield effectively
- even if you are "only a gamer" and don't care about
- the realism of the tools at your disposal, or the
- characters you are playing.

I guess we can agree on that experienced recoil is an subjective received thing, it´s not an issue which would be making the game disfunctional. If we would have the ability to record demos i would post it to show the M4 is very well effective on full auto, that is as long as YOU, the player, make an effort to control it and don´t go trigger happy on full auto. Though primary deployment as with all assault rifles should be semi auto for precision fire, as per RL. The "issue" you guys might be experiencing may be caused by lag (low framerates), i notice that whenever framerare takes a hit, weapon recoil seems to multiply while the whole recovery process gets awkward when frames drop below a certain treshold, this is not only true for the M4 but for all weapons.

I dont know if it's the net code but I just dont like it. You are in a corner hiding, you hear some1 and think (ahh, thats going to be a easy kill, just wait in this corner 'till this guy shows up, then u are dead before he shows up !!!).

Testlab 04/04/03

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 07:42 AM
Perry_AWM wrote:
- ==========
- "[The P90] was developed in the late 1980s and may
- be referred as a forerunner of the PDW (Personal
- Defense Weapon) concept."
-
- Actually, it was the PDW concept... It was
- billed as the P90 Personal Defence Weapon. I do love
- this little beast - I wrote a proposal for the
- Swedish Air Force, suggesting that people like us
- comms guys be issued the P90 rather than the huge
- bloody AK5. I actually got to visit FN Herstal in
- Belgium to have play with it - that showroom is
- HEAVEN.
-
- Any game with a P90 must be good - it's a lovely
- gun.


in response to the italic part - Not in this game. The P90 and Five Seven blow in this game.




- ==========
- "Belgian Pistol 5.7mm"
-
- OK, now I'm just nitpicking, but it's technically
- called the FN Herstal Five-seveN...


Not in this game. None of the guns use their full/real names. I'm guessing licensing is the reason why.

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 08:18 AM
Perry_AWM wrote:
- A Brief Critique Of RS Weapons
-
- I've just been browsing the weapons pages; for a
- game that prides itself on realism they make some
- glaring mistakes.
-
-
-
- ==========
- "The 5.56mm L85A1 AR is the standard infantry weapon
- of the British Army. Its bullpup design trades
- accuracy for maneuverability."
-
- That's wrong - the L85 is one of the most accurate
- assault rifles in the world. Because of its
- bullpup configuration it can fit a longer barrel in
- - in fact, the barrel, at 518mm, is 68 mm longer
- than that of the AK5, itself a very accurate weapon.
- Most of the complaints about the L85 centre on its
- unreliability - it's basically a match rifle painted
- green... Lovely to fire, though.
-



Just wanted to add that a longer barrel isn't neccessarly more accurate. You get more velocity though.


And I can't wait for someone to come out with a realistic gun-mod for the game.
Though I havn't used it much my self, the reports about the terrible performance of the P90 (and the Five-seven) are the only things I'm happy about, considering their terrible performance in real life as well....
But mostly the devs did a horrible job on the weapon specs....

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 10:05 AM
- The "issue" you guys might be
- experiencing may be caused by lag (low framerates),
- i notice that whenever framerare takes a hit, weapon
- recoil seems to multiply while the whole recovery
- process gets awkward when frames drop below a
- certain treshold, this is not only true for the M4
- but for all weapons.

The M4 is especially bad. The M4 on burst works fine, but still recoils on full auto way *worse* than any of the other assault rifles. It's not a lag thing or a frame rate thing, or else it'd be across the board for all the other similar weapons. It's distictly different. It also seems to have better stopping power than the Einfeld in my experience, which also makes no sense.

I still use it often because of its quick recovery, and try to work it with short bursts. The recoil is still extreme though, especially in comparison with like weapons.


-Al
____________________________________

Rules of drawing -
A. If you're the bad guy, draw and shoot first.
B. If you're the good guy, draw second and shoot first.
&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://alliu.best.vwh.net/HRTLogo-tiny.jpg'</script>&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>


Message Edited on 04/05/0301:07AM by Sundown

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 10:11 AM
SIG551 wrote:
-
- Though I havn't used it much my self, the reports
- about the terrible performance of the P90 (and the
- Five-seven) are the only things I'm happy about,
- considering their terrible performance in real life
- as well....

Someone mind explaining why and how the P90 performs so badly in real tests? I find it funny since it was explicitly designed to penetrate armor, and should actually be the ideal sub-gun round against armored targets... which is exactly what we're up against in MP. I've heard different things on its effectiveness against unarmored tangos, however.


At any rate, I think even the P90 is way undermodelled, considering its supposed armor piercing capabilities. Even the most pessimistic estimate wouldn't have it being completely useless.


-Al
____________________________________

Rules of drawing -
A. If you're the bad guy, draw and shoot first.
B. If you're the good guy, draw second and shoot first.
&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://alliu.best.vwh.net/HRTLogo-tiny.jpg'</script>&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 11:00 AM
The weapons comments are very old they havn`t changed them from RS so this explains the inacuracy of the info.

I think the weapons are very well ballanced this IS A GAME you can simulate very few things and if they were realistical modeled tell me of a weapon that would surpass the SA80 in range,manuvrability,recoil and that has a 4x scope as standard SO WHEN MAKING A PC GAME YOU MUST BALLANCE THE WEAPONS AND GAMEPLAY in the downfall of realism to realy justify the 57 weapons .

Imade the General\Enemy Realism mod for GR and it had quite a succes the biggest and hardest thing of the whole modding process was to balance weapons and still maintain the realism that is a trademark of the Tom Clany series of games.
Here is the url if you are still playing GR http://www.fileplanet.com/dl.aspx?/planetrainbowsix/atwar/GR/equipment/general_enemy_realism.rar

In concusion based on the SP Demo the game is very good has very little to no bugs the weapons are very well balanced so is the weapon changing ladder climbing speed walk speed the superb free stance control in concusion i will give the SP Demo a 9.3 out of 10.

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 11:09 AM
The way I deal with recoil, is to not even have it as a factor. With burst weapons, I found that tapping the mouse button and firing around 2 or 3 shots a burst (Without using the 3 round burst selector) is much more effective then holding the button down in full auto. Using the manual 2-3 round burst will kill your target 90%, assuming you hit with both rounds.

Recoil doesn't even need to be a factor.

-The Grinman /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 11:31 AM
SIG551 wrote:
-
- Perry_AWM wrote:
-- A Brief Critique Of RS Weapons
--
-- I've just been browsing the weapons pages; for a
-- game that prides itself on realism they make some
-- glaring mistakes.
--
--
--
-- ==========
-- "The 5.56mm L85A1 AR is the standard infantry weapon
-- of the British Army. Its bullpup design trades
-- accuracy for maneuverability."
--
-- That's wrong - the L85 is one of the most accurate
-- assault rifles in the world. Because of its
-- bullpup configuration it can fit a longer barrel in
-- - in fact, the barrel, at 518mm, is 68 mm longer
-- than that of the AK5, itself a very accurate weapon.
-- Most of the complaints about the L85 centre on its
-- unreliability - it's basically a match rifle painted
-- green... Lovely to fire, though.
--
-
-
-
- Just wanted to add that a longer barrel isn't
- neccessarly more accurate. You get more velocity
- though.


That is true!!!



- And I can't wait for someone to come out with a
- realistic gun-mod for the game.


Oh man, me too! I hope cocobolo and lloyd will create some kick-*** mods in time...



- But mostly the devs did a horrible job on the weapon
- specs....


Yes, I agree.

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 11:36 AM
Sundown wrote:
- SIG551 wrote:
--
-- Though I havn't used it much my self, the reports
-- about the terrible performance of the P90 (and the
-- Five-seven) are the only things I'm happy about,
-- considering their terrible performance in real life
-- as well....
-
- Someone mind explaining why and how the P90 performs
- so badly in real tests? I find it funny since it
- was explicitly designed to penetrate armor, and
- should actually be the ideal sub-gun round against
- armored targets... which is exactly what we're up
- against in MP. I've heard different things on its
- effectiveness against unarmored tangos, however.
-
-
- At any rate, I think even the P90 is way
- undermodelled, considering its supposed armor
- piercing capabilities. Even the most pessimistic
- estimate wouldn't have it being completely useless.
-
-
-
--Al
-


For a round to be effective, the bullet must penetrate deep enough and cause lots of damage to vital internal organs. the P90 does neither....
I've posted this before in another thread here, I got it on tacticalforums.com and "DocGKR". The thread can be read here: http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000050.html
(take extra notice of the second paragraph from the bottom)



NS,
We have covered this before--next time do a search.

Other than being able to perforate soft body armor, the 5.7 x 28 mm used in the FN P90, as well as the 4.6 x 30 mm fired from the HK MP7 cause wounds less incapacitating than those made by 9 mm FMJ fired from a pistol.

I have personally fired the 5.7 x 28 mm FN P-90; velocity, penetration, and tissue destruction is like a .17 Hornet--far less than we see with 75 gr TAP or 77 MK out of our M4's. Winchester RA45T 230 gr JHP's fired from our duty 1911's crush more tissue and penetrate further than the 5.7 x 28 mm. Use of the 5.7 x 28 mm is a good way to ensure mission failure.

Several papers have described the incredibly poor terminal performance of projectiles fired by the FN P90.

--Dahlstrom D, Powley K, and Gordon C: "Wound Profile of the FN Cartridge (SS 190) Fired from the FN P90 Submachine Gun". Wound Ballistic Review. 4(3):21-26; Spring 2000.

--Fackler M: "Errors & Omissions", Wound Ballistic Review. 1(1):46; Winter 1991.

--Fackler M: "More on the Bizarre Fabrique National P-90", Wound Ballistic Review. 3(1):44-45; 1997.

--FBI Academy Firearms Training Unit. FBI Handgun Ammunition Tests 1989-1995. Quantico, U.S. Department of Justice--Federal Bureau of Investigation.

--Hayes C: "Personal Defense Weapons-Answer in Search of a Question", Wound Ballistic Review. 5(1):30-36; Spring 2001.

--Roberts G: "Preliminary Evaluation of the Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 23 Grain FMJ Bullet Fired by the New FN P-90 , Using 10% Ordnance Gelatin as a Tissue Simulant", AFTE Journal. 30(2):326-329, Spring 1998.

--Roberts G: "Terminal Performance of the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 Grain SS-190 FMJ Bullet Fired by the FN P-90 in 10% Ordnance Gelatin.", AFTE Journal. In Press.

The early 5.7 x 28 mm 23 gr FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90 had insufficient penetration for law enforcement and military use. The current 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet has nearly adequate penetration, but the wound resulting from this projectile has a relatively small permanent crush cavity, as well as an insignificant temporary stretch cavity. Although the 5.7 x 28 mm penetrates soft body armor, wounding potential is at best like a .22 LR or .22 Magnum. Even 9mm NATO FMJ makes a larger wound--and we are all aware of the awe inspiring incapacitation potential of M882 ball from the M9......

Numerous other projectiles commonly used for law enforcement and military special operations applications, such as a good 9mm, .40 S&W, or .45 ACP JHP, the better 5.56 x 45 mm BTHP/JSP loads, as well as 12 gauge shotgun slugs and 00 buckshot, all provide better penetration, crush more tissue, and have far greater potential to reliably physiologically incapacitate an aggressor than the 5.7 x 28 mm 31 gr SS-190 FMJ bullet fired by the FN P-90. Law enforcement agencies and military special operations units are strongly urged to avoid adoption of this weapon system.





EDIT: Btw, are you the same "Sundown" as on tacticalforums.com?


Message Edited on 04/05/0311:41AM by SIG551

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 12:10 PM
Just as well that I'm more into target shooting (practical rather than the stuff with all the silly jackets and things, but still), isn't it? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I still love the P90, whether it's good for takedowns or not. If I ever need a weapon for self-defence, it'll be a USP with Hydra-Shoks anyway!

Non Levitas Tolero Fatui

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 12:17 PM
ahh so you are a IPSC shooter?


I agree it would be a lot of fun to have a P90. Sure to be fun on the range. But I just wouldn't go to war with it. I'd rather take my SIG...

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 12:18 PM
Vintorez sniper-rifle is done incorect!It needs to remove
tripod from there!Nobody uses it with fuuckin tripod cause
this is short sniper rifle of middle range shooting.I know
what i say cause i'm from Russia and i used it myself in
Chechnya.Even Dragunov(SVD) we didn't use with tripod
usualy.

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 01:28 PM
OK, I just want to add that I love infantry weapons - and I think they are the best. :9

That is all.


Message Edited on 04/05/0312:30PM by LMCATProOrd

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 03:27 PM
Quoth Aries73,

> the M4 is very well effective on full auto, that is as long as YOU, the player,
> make an effort to control it and don´t go trigger happy on
full auto.

I don't go trigger happy. I fire with a single click of the mouse at each target. Usually that means one round. With the lag from my 56k-o-matic it sometimes translates as a short burst.

With the MP5A4 I can fire several rounds at a target - with a pause between each - very quickly, even looking through the scope. After one click of the mouse with the M4 - expending one round - the reticle blooms and jumps like I'd just emptied half a magazine on full auto. Look through the scope and you'd better make damn sure you score a hit because you're going to be facing a different area of the map when the screen stops dancing.

If you aren't a firearms afficionado and just want to play, you should at least try out all the guns and see which ones give you a chance of victory proportional to your own skill, not some funky stats dreamt up five years ago. If you ARE a "gun nut" perhaps you can try to reconcile some of these weapons' total ineffectiveness in a soi-disant realistic game with their widespread deployment by law enforcement and military units around the world.

Oh and hello Sundown! I'm still banned from the SWAT3 forum...

XyZspineZyX
04-05-2003, 04:21 PM
Aside from the real life details about the P90, I had a very funny experience in the MP demo that sorta convinced me it was a terrible weapon in RvS. I had just fired my last bullet killing a guy, and was about to reload when the guy's buddy with a P90 came around the corner and was literally 5 feet away from me. He proceded to EMPTY his entire 50 round clip at me while I continuted to reload my pistol, I was reloaded just as he ran out...making it quite easy to shoot him once in the head. I turned around A'LA Pulp Fiction and sure enough the wall behind me was sprayed with bulletholes...but he missed me with every single one of them! Now sure this guy was probably pretty bad in the aim department, but I think at 5 feet, 50 bullets should kill something if you are even looking in their general direction...

BTW as far as the real P90, I've heared that bullets in it's clip can become rearranged if you drop the gun, causing a total jam. Sure dropping a gun is not a good move in anycase, but I dont wanna be worried when I am diving to prone to avoid fire,that my gun will become completely screwed in the process.

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 04:05 AM
spectr666 wrote:
- Vintorez sniper-rifle is done incorect!It needs to
- remove
- tripod from there!Nobody uses it with fuuckin
- tripod cause
-
- this is short sniper rifle of middle range
- shooting.I know
- what i say cause i'm from Russia and i used it
- myself in
- Chechnya.Even Dragunov(SVD) we didn't use with
- tripod
- usualy.

You know what you "fuuking" say? Well you don't seem to know the difference between a bi-pod and tri-pod, which lowers your credibility down to zero.

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 04:11 AM
- I think UBI didn't include the L85A2 beacause it
- was just produced rather recentlly,

Remeber that RvS takes place in the future, so what he's trying to say is that by the time 2004 hits --and even now-- the L85A1's are obsolete, and all soldiers etc are being issued the A2's.

Anyway, another gripe is that the AK-74 doesn't use the "grilled" polymer lower hand gaurd, the ones in RvS are smooth. The Russian AK-100 series of rifles still uses those, and so does the AK-74.

Let's see what else...? Ah yes, the bi-pod position on the SVD is in an incorrect spot [on the wooden lower hand gaurd]. There is a special bi-pod made for the SVD called the "Tantal" which is made in Russia. It is placed right on the front of the receiver in front of where the "litening cuts" are made, and right in front of the magazine. You can find images and info here: http://www.dragunov.net/bipod.html



Message Edited on 04/05/0307:25PM by Cleft-Asunder

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 04:15 AM
Sundown wrote:
- The M4 is especially bad. The M4 on burst works
- fine, but still recoils on full auto way *worse*
- than any of the other assault rifles. It's not a
- lag thing or a frame rate thing, or else it'd be
- across the board for all the other similar weapons.
- It's distictly different. It also seems to have
- better stopping power than the Einfeld in my
- experience, which also makes no sense.
-
- I still use it often because of its quick recovery,
- and try to work it with short bursts. The recoil is
- still extreme though, especially in comparison with
- like weapons.

Thats because the M4 in RvS is bassically the M14 in both recoil and sound. The good news is, from what I've noticed, it has the M14's high damage, it takes me "at the most", 3 shots to kill someone with an M4,, and thats if I'm trying to bust his cap before I kill him.
Hopefully they make a patch for that, till then I'm trying out the several types of bulpops they have.

http://bender.hypermart.net/images/bender.gif


"Kiss my shiny metallic ***"

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 04:15 AM
Cleft-Asunder wrote:
- Remeber that RvS takes place in the future, so what
- he's trying to say is that by the time 2004 hits
- --and even now-- the L85A1's are obsolete, and all
- soldiers etc are being issued the A2's.

I'm talking abour right now, the present,, UBI actually sat down with "SOME" gun manufactures to get info for modelling, but like I said the A2 model is fairlly new and you know about the military and new things,, they can be stingy some times.
Besides I think of the L85 as one of the few "classic" bullpops, just like in the SMG section they still use M12s and UZIs

http://bender.hypermart.net/images/bender.gif


"Kiss my shiny metallic ***"

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 04:39 AM
Just wanted to note that the L85A1 shouldnt even be in this game - it should be the L85A2, the enitre British army stock of L85A1's should be upgraded to the SA80A2 / L85A2 standard within the next year or two. None of the soldiers in Iraq have the unreliable old SA80s, they all have the much more reliable H&K modified SA80A2's, those should be the weapons in the game. Not that it would change the way the weapon works in the game but while we're nitpicking...

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 04:51 AM
Xanman wrote:
- Just wanted to note that the L85A1 shouldnt even be
- in this game - it should be the L85A2, the enitre
- British army stock of L85A1's should be upgraded to
- the SA80A2 / L85A2 standard within the next year or
- two. None of the soldiers in Iraq have the
- unreliable old SA80s, they all have the much more
- reliable H&K modified SA80A2's, those should be the
- weapons in the game. Not that it would change the
- way the weapon works in the game but while we're
- nitpicking...

I think UBI didn't include the L85A2 beacause it was just produced rather recentlly, and you know how the Military is,,, its brand new and they don't like to share.
Besides,,, the original L85 sucked because its chamber and internal parts kept getting dirty. Unless you play peaks all the time how can you get an L85 all sandy and dirty in an Airport??? or a Mansion??? or any Urban Map.

http://bender.hypermart.net/images/bender.gif


"Kiss my shiny metallic ***"

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 07:48 AM
- Copyright reasons, I presume; just like the sods
- renamed the F2000 in that sneaking game, Splinter
- wossname.

Um... that is a real gun's name. Yea the F2000.
The F2000 is a modular weaponsystem, developed by FN Herstal, Belgium, and introduced in 2001.


http://world.guns.ru/main-e.htm

This is where i go for my gun info, f it is up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

My specs.
AMD XP 2200+, Geforce 4 Ti 4400, Sound blaster Audigy Platnum, Creative inspire 5.1 speakers, IBM 60 gig, 512 DDR Samsung ram PC 2100, Koolance water cooling sysem.
Yea, better then most.

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 08:02 AM
PULP FICTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

My specs.
AMD XP 2200+, Geforce 4 Ti 4400, Sound blaster Audigy Platnum, Creative inspire 5.1 speakers, IBM 60 gig, 512 DDR Samsung ram PC 2100, Koolance water cooling sysem.
Yea, better then most.

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 10:15 AM
The M4 is crazy!

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 01:16 PM
Voshterkoff wrote:
- I wrote:
-- Copyright reasons, I presume; just like the sods
-- renamed the F2000 in that sneaking game, Splinter
-- wossname.
-
- Um... that is a real gun's name. Yea the F2000.
- The F2000 is a modular weaponsystem, developed by FN
- Herstal, Belgium, and introduced in 2001.


That's what I said - they renamed the F2000 to some other (rather silly) name. The F2000 is lovely - I had a quick play with it at FN Herstal, and... wow. It's light, it's incredibly ergonomic, the sights are marvellous, brass goes out the front rather than bothering anyone... Oh, it's lovely.



= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Non Levitas Tolero Fatui

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 01:20 PM
SIG551 wrote:
- ahh so you are a IPSC shooter?


Dunno, wozzat?

I've never got round to doing any competition shooting; I had joined my university gun club to start competing, but they insisted on using all this fancy rubbish... .22LR target rifles, fancy sights, silly one-armed slings, and those bloody stupid shooting jackets... I was getting groups of over an inch at 50m - whereas I used to get half-inch groups at 150m with my AK5!

I got bored with that club - now I'm back to just shooting for fun.


- I agree it would be a lot of fun to have a P90. Sure
- to be fun on the range. But I just wouldn't go to
- war with it. I'd rather take my SIG...


Definitely agreed - I think I'd prefer an AK5 or L85, though. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Non Levitas Tolero Fatui

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 03:10 PM
Voshterkoff wrote:
- Um... that is a real gun's name. Yea the F2000.
- The F2000 is a modular weaponsystem, developed by FN
- Herstal, Belgium, and introduced in 2001.

Can it actually hold its excess bullet casings until you reload,,, like in the game{SC}???

http://www.comedycentral.com/tv_shows/thedailyshowwithjonstewart/images/down/wp_ncaa_800x600.jpg


[b]I warned you Canada. This is how it begins. The Canadian-American war prophesied in Canadian Bacon is nigh at hand if you refuse to rethink your position"-Jon Stewart on Canada's refusal to enter Iraq without UN support

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 05:51 PM
Spinnaker wrote:
- Voshterkoff wrote:
-- Um... that is a real gun's name. Yea the F2000.
-- The F2000 is a modular weaponsystem, developed by FN
-- Herstal, Belgium, and introduced in 2001.
-
- Can it actually hold its excess bullet casings
- until you reload,,, like in the game{SC}???


No. Basically it works by ejecting the case from the breech into a small white plastic rocker just under a hinged lid right behind the sight unit. That rocker then feeds it into the ejection chute, which eventually drops the brass out of a small opening just above and to the right of where the barrel exits the body. This chute has some friction inside and will usually hold three to five cases before they start being pushed out.

I can try to contact an acquaintance of mine, who works at FN Herstal, to see if I can get pictures and schematics, but until then a good start is www.fnherstal.net/english/range_f2000.html (http://www.fnherstal.net/english/range_f2000.html)

I think there should be a picture there.

But yes, the case ejection is delayed, rather than contained entirely; I believe there is a brass collector attachment, much like the bag available for the P90.



= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Non Levitas Tolero Fatui

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 06:28 PM
I agree with everything you said Perry.


I used to carry a SAW at times as a Ranger and saying it is only accurate from the kneeling and prone position is the biggest load of crap I have ever seen. LOL

There was a reason we called it "the laser".





JG27_Arklight
"Taking out the garbage since release"

Message Edited on 04/06/0310:28AM by JG27_Arklight

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 07:08 PM
JG27_Arklight wrote:
- I agree with everything you said Perry.


Cheers!


- I used to carry a SAW at times as a Ranger and
- saying it is only accurate from the kneeling and
- prone position is the biggest load of crap I have
- ever seen. LOL
-
- There was a reason we called it "the laser".


Definitely.

The bloke I mentioned who fired it one-handed, BTW... his dad owned a small local shop which made computers. Another company was replacing all its old laptops, so this guy got about 30 or 40 old, useless laptops. After his dad had taken all the useful bits out (RAM and so on) this gunner got them to play with. The first we heard of it was when he came across the corridor into our room, said "Look what I got!" and tore a laptop to shreds with his bare hands, I kid ye not!

"I've got another 34," he said as he left.

The next day he asked our Lieutenant - who liked a good explosion as much as anyone (more on him later...) - and propped up a dozen of these laptops along the backstop of our 300 m range. Then he got three ammo cassettes and two mates (each of the base security squads had a sharpshooter or two, with a PSG90 / L96 AW) with with a few mags and proceeded to chuck a few hundred rounds downrange.

Have you ever seen a laptop screen with 200 rounds worth of 5.56mm holes through the middle? Firing full auto, he got a 3" group at 200 m, albeit from prone.

As for the lieutenant... well, he liked his guns. He had somehow managed to get officially issued with just about everything; AK5, AK5 with SUSAT, AK5 with M203, Ksp90 (Minimi/SAW), PSG 90, the works. One afternoon we were on parade, awaiting debriefing after an exercise. We'd been standing at ease for maybe 15 minutes when the Lieutenant got bored and fetched a roll of det cord from the Tgb (Terr¤ngbil 11 - the Swedish Land Rover / Humm-vee equivalent). He walked over to one of the birches around the drill square.

"OK, who wants to see me blow up this tree?"

I presume you can guess the answer.

If you haven't seen the result of twenty turns of det cord round a tree, you have not lived, POSThttp://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_edit.aspHTTP/1.0I tell you. I don't know why I ever left, actually...


EDIT: Why do I keep getting those stupid "POST http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_post.aspHTTP/1.0" (http://forums.ubi.com/messages/message_post.aspHTTP/1.0) bits? Anyone got any idea? It always seems to happen when I post from this computer, which goes through a LAN proxy - can anyone help?


= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Message Edited on 04/06/0307:11PM by Perry_AWM

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 08:46 PM
you are not cool. Flaunting your cool experiences. Can i come and play?

My specs.
AMD XP 2200+, Geforce 4 Ti 4400, Sound blaster Audigy Platnum, Creative inspire 5.1 speakers, IBM 60 gig, 512 DDR Samsung ram PC 2100, Koolance water cooling sysem.
Yea, better then most.

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2003, 11:24 PM
First of all, I know plenty of competition shooters who refer to their bipods as tripods. No idea why, and I love correcting them on it, but some people do say it that way.

Secondly, if he is from Russia, there's going to be some translation issues. The rest of his post does read like a person who is speaking a second language (for example, dropping the "the" in from of Vintorez, because in Russian you wouldn't say "the" there).

Third of all, he's right. Look up the Vintorez sometime. It only works at close ranges, because it fires big, heavy, slow bullets. Based on what I know about Russian sniping (a field in which my knowledge is admittedly limited), they typically don't use bipods or high-power sights because they're heavy and mess with off-hand shooting, which is what their rifles are designed for. Upon referencing some photographs of the Val and Vintorez, I can't seem to find a single one where the weapon is equipped with a bipod or even a sling swivel.

I'm not saying he's right, or even that he's telling the truth, I'm just saying that there is no evidence I've seen that what he is saying is false, and I do think (from, once again, my admittedly limited Russian-speaking ability) that his writing is consistent with a native Russian-speaker.

XyZspineZyX
04-07-2003, 12:00 AM
Voshterkoff wrote:
- you are not cool. Flaunting your cool experiences.
- Can i come and play?


Well, not for real, because I left the Air Force, but if you're any good at modding you can help me with a mod I'm working on for SoF2 based on my time there... http://m90.cqr.nu (if the page is working now).



= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

Non Levitas Tolero Fatui

XyZspineZyX
08-21-2003, 01:23 PM
Great topic for stating some inconsistence with Vintorez. Yea, I'm Russian too, and I dont use word as "fuuuuck", so I guess my oppinion should be valued higher than zero. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It was GREATLY brought down - take it's range, for e.g. It's has effective (not maximum, mind) range of 400 meters with a standart PSO-1 scope, and a range of 300 with a night vision scope. Here, it has shorter range than an average pistol! I'm not that greatly patriotic (I cannot say I like my country much, I did not have much of a choice when I was born), but I's most outrageos. Unfortunately, I cannot say anything about stability and recovery, but damage is greatly brought down too. E.g. - it can shoot right thru 8mm steel plating at 100 metres. (or II-IV class body armor). Especially with SP-6 armor piercing bullets. Btw, it should, in fact, use SP-5 - sniper ones. SP-6 are reserved for VAL (btw, VSS was based upon VAL). I might be wrong here, however, (I may have swapped them).
Oh, and some tech data. (taken from here:
http://www.professional.spb.ru/SEMINAR/GUN/snaiper/5_398.htm
and here
http://www.professional.spb.ru/SEMINAR/GUN/vintovki/5_343.htm
and some other places, too numerous to count http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. And mostly in Russian (after all, it's a Russian, and not so widespread weapon, because of it's specialization).

Caliber - 9x39 mm
Muzzle velocity - about 290 metres per second.
Bullet weight - 16.1 gramms (comparing to about 6 of 5.56!)
Muzzle power - 665
Power after 400 metres traveled is about 500.
Effective aiming range - 400 metres.
Can still penetrate and kill a person in a class I or II armor from that range.
How it can be compared to puny !9! range and 25 damage - I cannot say. Well, I understand that "Every frog praises it's own pond", but those number are taken from rather respective sources, and this gun is evaluated highly positively by Russian Spetnaz. It has it's minuses - it's rather brittle, not very relaiable - well, comparting to AK series at least. It's ammo heavy and hard to obtain. And yes, it's not as accurate is Barret. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But I still offended at how Russian weapons are "looked down upon".
And yes, it's never used with a bipod. At least I never saw a picture of a VSS with it. After all, it's advantages that it's relatively light and small.(Btw, there are tripods out there, of course, but they are for not-so-light machine guns (high caliber ones, mostly)).
P.S. Well, S.T.A.L.K.E.R. - Oblivion Lost will sertainly fix issue with Russian weapon being brought down, and rare to find in games. Since it takes place in former Russia, there would be plenty of weapons from Russia there. There is VAL and VSS here already, and most other popular weapons too.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 12:59 AM
SIG551 wrote:
- Though I havn't used it much my self, the reports
- about the terrible performance of the P90 (and the
- Five-seven) are the only things I'm happy about,
- considering their terrible performance in real life
- as well....


youve obviuosly never seen a P90 at work. Ive never seen a Five-seveN being used so i can neither agree or argue there, but if im not mistaken the P90 is one of the most effective submachinegun/PDWs in the world. It fires the 5.7x28mm armor piercing round with a fast fire rate and outstanding accururaccy for its size. It is small(tiny), light, and streamlined. It holds 50 rounds, fired from a fully ambidextrous bullpup design.

and about silencers: as long as it is perfectly in line with the bore, it will slightly increase accuracy

personally a loathe the atrocious job they did modeling the damage for suppressed ARs. I mean COME ON people. A suppressed M4 does less damage than a suppressed 9mm pistol.In real life the suppressed M4 and suppressed G36K are a couple of the most kickarse guns in the world. I would love to have the scoped, suppressed G36K and use it to great effectiveness, but i cannot because it does less damage than a pellet gun. This seriously needs to be fixed.

a.k.a. Striker,DoomSnipa

1 Osama Bin Laden + 1 Saddam Hussien = 2 dead terrorists

girls, cars, and guns: the three main needs in life

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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 01:10 AM
Sundown wrote:
- I think the 10mm was kicked around by a few
- different parties, but the FBI was the one to adopt
- it with any real success. They weren't the ones to
- actually invent it, however.
-
- The 10mm proved to kick way too hard than was
- practical, and the FBI promptly developed a
- downgraded version. Which then prompted the
- creation of the .40, basically the same thing in a
- more efficient package, and usable in medium framed
- pistols.
-
- The 10mm is still being used in the MP5/10 in this
- downgraded variant, today. I'm not really sure why
- the HRT doesn't just switch over to the MP5/40 use a
- much more popular ammo (that the rest of the agency
- uses anyway) and be done with it. I guess no real
- need since what they have works.



HK has stopped production for the MP5/10.

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the stick fugure <font></a></table>
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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:38 AM
- youve obviuosly never seen a P90 at work. Ive never
- seen a Five-seveN being used so i can neither agree
- or argue there, but if im not mistaken the P90 is
- one of the most effective submachinegun/PDWs in the
- world. It fires the 5.7x28mm armor piercing round
- with a fast fire rate and outstanding accururaccy
- for its size. It is small(tiny), light, and
- streamlined. It holds 50 rounds, fired from a fully
- ambidextrous bullpup design.

The P90 is a nicely designed SMG, but I wouldn't go so far as to say that it is one of the most effective SMGs in the world. You are essentially firing a .22 Winchester Magnum Rimfire at your target. Thats right. 5.7x28mm: 31 grains at 2300 fps; .22 WMR: 30 grains at 2200 fps. The only meaningful difference is that the 5.7mm bullet is solid copper and of a spitzer shape. Load that bullet in a .22 WMR case, and it will penetrate armor as well.

Now, there is no argument that the P90 is a wonderful design, but would you willingly take the equivalant of a rimfire cartridge into any kind of hostile situation?

<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>

To win any confrontation, you need three things. You need the proper equipment, you need the proper training, and you need an edge over your opponent. Most of the time, your training is that edge.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 03:47 AM
Debating realism in a game is a totally dead-end subject. The weapon specs aren't "wrong" they were made to suit a GAME. If all the weapons had their down to the number real specs there would undoubtably be some horrendous imbalances... then you people would be on here griping about THAT /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif .

Balance > Realism
Gameplay > Realism

If you could one-hand fire a SAW with laser-like accuracy, why the hell would you use any of the other weapons? Mmm... you see my point.

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XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 04:40 AM
What you mentioned about the L85 holds true for the AUG as well.

In the games the AUG fires like a SMG with the kick of shotgun. A trained soldier with an AUG can tag someone with burst fire over 125 meters away, and can tag a target over 400 meters away with a single shot.

And For some odd reason they have the FNC outclassing both the AUG when the AUG most standard Assualt rifles during military testing.

"Austrian military trials then compared the AUG with the FN FAL (Austrian Stg 58 in 7.62mm NATO), the Czech Vz58 in 7.62x39 ComBloc, and the 5.56mm NATO FN CAL and Colt M16A1. The AUG proved to be at least as reliable as any of its competitors. It also proved to be superior in accuracy potential, target acquisition, handling characteristics, and full-auto fire controllability. In short, the AUG proved to be a winner. "

http://remtek.com/arms/steyr/aug/edit/augsof.htm

So there ye have it, the damn AUG aint supposed to be no peashooter w/ kick of stallion on acid. Its actually *gasp* a weapon that can actually hit sometime w/o spraying and praying from a Hi Cap FAMAS.

XyZspineZyX
08-22-2003, 07:12 AM
BUMP!! this game dev's are totally ignorant.