Ghosting is dumb

[digi_matrix]

Really, would you ever do ghosting on your first playthrough of a game? Just going past enemies to the end of a level and not doing anything, how is that a videogame?

I'm fine with ghosting as just for ****s and giggles, but to imply a stealth game is stealth game if it has ability for ghosting sounds like your imposed values of biased fun.

How is using the great gadgets or hearing Sam's dialogue when he interrogates people a detriment to your enjoyment of a game? If you didn't do any of that, you missed out on one of the best parts of Chaos Theory, which was to hear Memorable Quotes (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427889/quotes) some of the funniest lines ever.

[Xx_Redex_xX]

I would just out of the fact your imposing a challenge on an otherwise easy game dare I say it yes easy. (assuming demo is accurate representation.)

[Hypnosos]

I enjoy ghosting, but I try to play Splinter Cell games in all different ways. Ghosting, knocking everyone out without being detected, killing everyone, run-n-gun with mark n' execute. Everything really. It's all good fun.

[DeafAtheist]

I think the irony is that with previous titles using stealth to avoid enemies was easier to get thru than engaging them. It's agreed that these were stealth oriented games and engaging them got you killed quickly on harder levels.

Now with Conviction being more action oriented it actually makes stealth more challenging and playing with M&E is easy even on harder levels. So it's funny to see the dark siders complain about the game being action oriented because in making the game that way they made stealth more challenging and I'd think therefore more satisfying when you complete it without engaging any guards.

[digi_matrix]

Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
I think the irony is that with previous titles using stealth to avoid enemies was easier to get thru than engaging them. It's agreed that these were stealth oriented games and engaging them got you killed quickly on harder levels.

Now with Conviction being more action oriented it actually makes stealth more challenging and playing with M&E is easy even on harder levels. So it's funny to see the dark siders complain about the game being action oriented because in making the game that way they made stealth more challenging and I'd think therefore more satisfying when you complete it without engaging any guards.
Those people are a lost cause, with their minds already set.

From the stealth walkthroughs I've seen, it shows what I would do: use the gadgets to their full use. And I'm sure someone will find a way for perfect ghosting, since the demo level itself seems to have the same amount of sandbox depth to its level design just like in past Splinter Cell games.

But if you think that the game becomes a poop stain if you can't do a completely ghosting playthrough, then forget it. Don't buy it. Why suffer, for $60?

[Xx_Redex_xX]

Originally posted by digi_matrix:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
I think the irony is that with previous titles using stealth to avoid enemies was easier to get thru than engaging them. It's agreed that these were stealth oriented games and engaging them got you killed quickly on harder levels.

Now with Conviction being more action oriented it actually makes stealth more challenging and playing with M&E is easy even on harder levels. So it's funny to see the dark siders complain about the game being action oriented because in making the game that way they made stealth more challenging and I'd think therefore more satisfying when you complete it without engaging any guards.
Those people are a lost cause, with their minds already set.

From the stealth walkthroughs I've seen, it shows what I would do: use the gadgets to their full use. And I'm sure someone will find a way for perfect ghosting, since the demo level itself seems to have the same amount of sandbox depth to its level design just like in past Splinter Cell games.

But if you think that the game becomes a poop stain if you can't do a completely ghosting playthrough, then forget it. Don't buy it. Why suffer, for $60? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

After extensive testing I can assure you after getting to the last bend numerous times without alerts (I killed stealthily to make sure they're was no reaction/detection) that the second you lean on the corner (I even managed to shoot the hall light out from a distance without alert) you trigger a scripted event resulting in "WHERE ARE YOU FISHER SHOW YOUR SELF!" meaning in the demo 100% ghosting is not possible if you count alerts as negative points towards stealth the best you can get on this demo is about 99/100% stealth with kills.

[Azanode]

@DeafAtheist: It's not so much "can you do it?" or "how hard is it?" it's "is it fun?" My main concern with Conviction is that if I play the game the way I want to, there won't be enough depth and conscious design to make it a crafted and enjoyable experience.

[MarcFirewing]

I'm questioning if anyone knows what Ghosting is...

Ghosting is used in multiplayer for telling your team where the enemies are while you're dead...What you guys are trying for is wall-hacking with Sonar Goggles. Unless there's some other term that's been invented while I've been away from the Counter-Strike community. Or if you're talking about something completely different...

[Xx_Redex_xX]

Originally posted by MarcFirewing:
I'm questioning if anyone knows what Ghosting is...

Ghosting is used in multiplayer for telling your team where the enemies are while you're dead...What you guys are trying for is wall-hacking with Sonar Goggles. Unless there's some other term that's been invented while I've been away from the Counter-Strike community. Or if you're talking about something completely different...

In SC lingo:

Ghosting - you were never there 0 alerts 0 detections 0 kills 0 knockouts

Stealth - 0 Detections and not limited to 0 kills 0 knockouts however normally encouraged.

[MarcFirewing]

That explains it. I've never visited forums to pick up on SC lingo...thanks for the lesson.

[bigbiz]

Technically, you can't ghost in this game anyways. They know you're coming after them. It's just a matter of when.

[Xx_Redex_xX]

Originally posted by bigbiz:
Technically, you can't ghost in this game anyways. They know you're coming after them. It's just a matter of when.

Yeah but you can almost 100% stealth the demo its just that last bend where you trigger the scripted reaction knocking it down from 100.

(Excluding reactions which I do. You can 100% stealth the demo)

But being the fair person that I am if you count alerts as not stealth I went back and attempted a 100% stealth run but no dice on the last bend.

Oh and this stealth did include enemies being shot before they even had a chance to react or give me the <span class="ev_code_RED">"DETECTED"</span> flag.

[bigbiz]

I can easily get through w/o detection (in the sense of being spotted/engaged). You're right. No matter what, the last 3 guys & the hostage taker always know you're there. It's easy to get through the demo w/o anyone ever firing a shot at you though whether you use M&E or not. People are saying you can't or there is no stealth, & that's simply not true. No ghosting perhaps, but no stealth is false.

[Cyrus.H]

Originally posted by digi_matrix:
Really, would you ever do ghosting on your first playthrough of a game?
Yes, yes I would. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


Originally posted by digi_matrix:
Just going past enemies to the end of a level and not doing anything, how is that a videogame?
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/video+game

video game
?
–noun
1.
any of various games played using a microcomputer with a keyboard and often joysticks to manipulate changes or respond to the action or questions on the screen.
2.
any of various games played using a microchip-controlled device, as an arcade machine or hand-held toy.


Originally posted by digi_matrix:
I'm fine with ghosting as just for ****s and giggles, but to imply a stealth game is stealth game if it has ability for ghosting sounds like your imposed values of biased fun.
Stealth is about having your presence remain undetected until long after you've completed the mission and been extracted.

A game cannot be considered stealth if you make your way through the entire first level with no alarms or detections only to have the villain at the end of the level shout, "WHERE ARE YOU FISHER? COME OUT!!1" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif


Originally posted by digi_matrix:
How is using the great gadgets or hearing Sam's dialogue when he interrogates people a detriment to your enjoyment of a game?
The gadgets make no sense whatsoever and Sam's dialogue is verbal diarrhoea. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif


Originally posted by digi_matrix:
If you didn't do any of that, you missed out on one of the best parts of Chaos Theory, which was to hear Memorable Quotes (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427889/quotes) some of the funniest lines ever.
Who said that we can't play through the game a second time, without ghosting?

Actually, considering the slim replay value of Conviction, I can kind of see your point here. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
I think the irony is that with previous titles using stealth to avoid enemies was easier to get thru than engaging them. It's agreed that these were stealth oriented games and engaging them got you killed quickly on harder levels.
The real irony is that the development team labelled Splinter Cell: Conviction as a stealth action video game, when in reality it is just pure, guns-blazing, ******ed Hollywood action.


Originally posted by digi_matrix:
Now with Conviction being more action oriented it actually makes stealth more challenging and playing with M&E is easy even on harder levels. So it's funny to see the dark siders complain about the game being action oriented because in making the game that way they made stealth more challenging and I'd think therefore more satisfying when you complete it without engaging any guards.
You're right, it is satisfying to go through the entire level without engaging any guards.

Right up to the point when you're silently walking up to Kobin's bedroom door and he starts screaming, "WHERE ARE YOU FISHER?! COME OUT!!1" http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

That's how you know that the stealth in Conviction really isn't stealth at all. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Originally posted by digi_matrix:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
I think the irony is that with previous titles using stealth to avoid enemies was easier to get thru than engaging them. It's agreed that these were stealth oriented games and engaging them got you killed quickly on harder levels.

Now with Conviction being more action oriented it actually makes stealth more challenging and playing with M&E is easy even on harder levels. So it's funny to see the dark siders complain about the game being action oriented because in making the game that way they made stealth more challenging and I'd think therefore more satisfying when you complete it without engaging any guards.
Those people are a lost cause, with their minds already set. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You people are a lost cause, with your minds already set on wasting sixty American dollars to buy a crappy video game.


Originally posted by digi_matrix:
From the stealth walkthroughs I've seen, it shows what I would do: use the gadgets to their full use. And I'm sure someone will find a way for perfect ghosting, since the demo level itself seems to have the same amount of sandbox depth to its level design just like in past Splinter Cell games.
For the last time, it's not ghosting if the enemy knows that you're there. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

For all intents and purposes, you might as well go in gun blazing as that's the way the video game was designed to be played.

Trying to ghost through Conviction would be like trying to play a Call of Duty game without using lethal force.


Originally posted by digi_matrix:
But if you think that the game becomes a poop stain if you can't do a completely ghosting playthrough, then forget it. Don't buy it. Why suffer, for $60?
I'm not buying Conviction.

I have already decided to spend the money and time on more worthwhile activities, such as having my finger nails ripped out or pouring bleach into my eyes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Originally posted by digi_matrix:
Really, would you ever do ghosting on your first playthrough of a game? Just going past enemies to the end of a level and not doing anything, how is that a videogame?

I'm fine with ghosting as just for ****s and giggles, but to imply a stealth game is stealth game if it has ability for ghosting sounds like your imposed values of biased fun.

How is using the great gadgets or hearing Sam's dialogue when he interrogates people a detriment to your enjoyment of a game? If you didn't do any of that, you missed out on one of the best parts of Chaos Theory, which was to hear Memorable Quotes (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0427889/quotes) some of the funniest lines ever.

That's ok man. If you don't understand how it's fun, that's fine. You just don't find stealth gaming appealing. Most people just want to murder and slaughter their way through a level and their way to the objective.

But that is something that anyone can do.

The whole concept of stealth gaming is that a *real* professional can get in, get the job done and get out without anyone knowing he's there.

Murderous action junkies like yourself finish a level, without leaving a single soul alive and you think "Now, there's a job well done" and feel a sense of satisfaction.

Stealth gamers finish, like myself, finish a level without touching a single soul, raising a single suspicion or even firing a single bullet and we think "Now there is a job well done".

Using your gun is your last resort. If you can get the job done without killing anyone, then why would you kill anyone?


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
I think the irony is that with previous titles using stealth to avoid enemies was easier to get thru than engaging them. It's agreed that these were stealth oriented games and engaging them got you killed quickly on harder levels.

Now with Conviction being more action oriented it actually makes stealth more challenging and playing with M&E is easy even on harder levels. So it's funny to see the dark siders complain about the game being action oriented because in making the game that way they made stealth more challenging and I'd think therefore more satisfying when you complete it without engaging any guards.

That's like saying "It's harder to cycle your bike by pedalling backwards, but when you do do it, it's more satisfying"

Clearly not the case. Stealth in this game would be more satisfying if the challenges were built around it and if the game's design was orientated around intricate and fun ways of accomplishing it - not trying to make it fit in with dodgy, simplified mechanics and AI designed to be M&E-ed.

[Benddontbreak]

Is one of those worthwhile activities spending time typing out long elaborate replies to people on a video game forum that is for a video game you say you are not going to buy? Why the need to bash this game at every turn and insult the people that like it?

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Originally posted by Benddontbreak:
Is one of those worthwhile activities spending time typing out long elaborate replies to people on a video game forum that is for a video game you say you are not going to buy? Why the need to bash this game at every turn and insult the people that like it?

You're talking to me?

[Benddontbreak]

Not you Deniro.

[YtseJammer69]

ctually, considering the slim replay value of Conviction, I can kind of see your point here.

Yeah, the replay value is so slim.. We haven't even played the full game, and you are discussing its replay value. Mate, you seem to be a highly unlikable individual. You really need to take a page out of Fox's book, and treat other peoples opinions with even a shred of respect. I'm not saying this based on the fact that I disagree with everything you say - that is irrelevant. You sound like a grade 10 who has some serious growing up to do.

[Cyrus.H]

Originally posted by Benddontbreak:
Is one of those worthwhile activities spending time typing out long elaborate replies to people on a video game forum that is for a video game you say you are not going to buy?
Yes, yes it is. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Originally posted by Benddontbreak:
Why the need to bash this game at every turn and insult the people that like it?
I'm not bashing the game or insulting people, I'm telling the truth.

[ardoristherogue]

I played the demo on XBL, and my strategy is really mixed. If you're the type of guy that wants to ghost it, all power to you. But for me, it's really about using what I have. If there are two guys in a relatively small room, I'll likely take them out with some melee/mark and execute. But if you're talking about several guys...I would stealth it.

I would have to argue with the blokes saying that you can't ghost Conviction. Yes you can. I'd have to argue that it's more satisfying than before.

For example, two guards are standing in a relatively small room. They're talking about how "Sam Fisher is coming to get us" and all that trash...but by the time they're wondering when Fisher is going to appear...Sam is already gone. Why does the fact that people know you're coming have any infringement on ghosting? These stupid guards really don't know where you are...they just have a vague idea. So, in a way, there is a bit of a "mind game" involved. Interpet "ghosting" however you want but I take it at it's core: It's about the facts, and the fact of the matter is these guards don't have a "detect Sam Fisher" machine.

[Benddontbreak]

I guess my question is this. I have a job, family responsibilities and other things I like to do besides Video Games, so if there was a game I hated and was not going to buy I wouldn't bother posting on its forums, I would just let it go. Why can't you?

[Dephkt]

Originally posted by Benddontbreak:
I guess my question is this. I have a job, family responsibilities and other things I like to do besides Video Games, so if there was a game I hated and was not going to buy I wouldn't bother posting on its forums, I would just let it go. Why can't you?

I know you're not referring to me here, but I can add to this.

I don't like Conviction, I think it's moving in the completely wrong direction - simplifying a game to draw in a larger audience and moving away from its core values. So, with that said, why do I post here? Well, just like anybody who votes, I want my opinion to be heard - even if it doesn't directly change anything in the long run. It's impossible for me to sit back and watch my favorite series be ruined and be told to "deal with it" - sure it may be a good game, but it's not Splinter Cell, and that's why I post.

One major point people make is "It's still Splinter Cell, you can still be stealthy and you're still Sam Fisher." Stealthy? Yes. Splinter Cell stealth? No. In virtually every game on the market you can employ stealth tactics in one way or another - but that does not mean the game is built around stealth. Splinter Cell was known for the many mechanics it offered players - dragging bodies, whistling, light/sound meter, etc. - all of which added to the stealth gameplay and made it feel meaningful. This is not true in SC:C.

So sure, it might have the Splinter Cell title on it, and it may even have Sam Fisher in it, but that does not make it a true stealth game.

[digi_matrix]

Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
That's ok man. If you don't understand how it's fun, that's fine. You just don't find stealth gaming appealing. Most people just want to murder and slaughter their way through a level and their way to the objective.

Murderous action junkies like yourself...
Yo, I take issue with this. I can get 100% on every mission of Chaos Theory. I own all the games, even the Xbox version of Double Agent. I'm no "murderous action junkie", I just believe you should use what the game gives you.

In fact, the stealth genre was the first genre I meddled with, starting with Tenchu on the Playstation.

[savior2006]

You are a more casual gamer but many of us aren't. For many of us, Splinter Cell redefined a whole genre. It's like a sport to us. You surely wouldn't change the rules of football and tell the fans to "just let it go" would you?

[digi_matrix]

Originally posted by Dephkt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Benddontbreak:
I guess my question is this. I have a job, family responsibilities and other things I like to do besides Video Games, so if there was a game I hated and was not going to buy I wouldn't bother posting on its forums, I would just let it go. Why can't you?

I know you're not referring to me here, but I can add to this.

I don't like Conviction, I think it's moving in the completely wrong direction - simplifying a game to draw in a larger audience and moving away from its core audience. So, with that said, why do I post here? Well, just like anybody who votes, I want my opinion to be heard - even if it doesn't directly change anything in the long run. It's impossible for me to sit back and watch my favorite series be ruined and be told to "deal with it" - sure it may be a good game, but it's not Splinter Cell, and that's why I post. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
What makes a Splinter Cell game? How is Conviction, not a Splinter Cell game?

Has it become a 3rd person cover shooter, like Gears of War? No. The emphasis is still on taking out targets in stealth.

Can you shoot out lights and be hidden in the darkness? Yes.

Are there still gadgets? Yes.

Is there emphasis on melee moves, and interrogations? Yes.

Can you move bodies? Yes, if you have them as human shields and move their bodies to the darkness. Enemies still go on alert if they see you left a dead body out in the open.

Is Michael Ironside still the voice actor? Yes.

Do enemies have walk routines? Not really. Makes ghosting more difficult. But I don't mind that, because the enemies would feel robotic and a little outdated.

[CoastalGirl]

People are free to express their opinions here - if you don't agree that's fine, but suggesting that someone just stop posting if they don't agree isn't really appropriate. Giving constructive feedback on the game is encouraged (and that applies to everyone - saying the game is simply great [or not great] is okay, but without any details on why, the information's not as useful).

Anyway, I don't think anyone thinks that there isn't stealth in SCC. I see less emphasis on it, though, and what is there has been simplified (not really an opinion; the CD said they wanted to make it more binary). Does that make the game bad? Not at all. Do I think it'd be better with more stealth? Absolutely. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[FrankieSatt]

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
People are free to express their opinions here - if you don't agree that's fine, but suggesting that someone just stop posting if they don't agree isn't really appropriate. Giving constructive feedback on the game is encouraged (and that applies to everyone - saying the game is simply great [or not great] is okay, but without any details on why, the information's not as useful).

Anyway, I don't think anyone thinks that there isn't stealth in SCC. I see less emphasis on it, though, and what is there has been simplified (not really an opinion; the CD said they wanted to make it more binary). Does that make the game bad? Not at all. Do I think it'd be better with more stealth? Absolutely. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

::Raises Hand:: I will be the first to step up and say that Stealth, by the definintion of Stealth, IS NOT anywhere in the game.

You can't simplify Stealth. You either have it, or you don't. There is no middle ground, not in my opinion.

I'll again compare it to Splinter Cell Chaos Theory. In Chaos Theory, every single level could be completed in pure stealth.. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. That can't be done with Conviction and I seriously doubt it can be done in ANY level, despite what Beland and Co. say.

I have yet to see it done, I have yet to see anyone do it in the demo and until I see it done or do it myself than I'll continue to be skeptical of any kind of stealth being in Conviction.

[Dephkt]

Originally posted by digi_matrix:

What makes a Splinter Cell game? How is Conviction, not a Splinter Cell game?

Has it become a 3rd person cover shooter, like Gears of War? No. The emphasis is still on taking out targets in stealth.

No, the emphasis is on Mark and Execute, clearly demonstrated by the AI and map layout. Stealth, to me, is being unseen and unknown - not being unknown because I shoot everyone and leave a trace.


Can you shoot out lights and be hidden in the darkness? Yes.
Again, leaving a trace - not stealthy. And hidden in the darkness, well now you're either "hidden or not" it's binary, exactly like Beland said. There's no grey area that was in past games.

Are there still gadgets? Yes.
Wallhack vision? Yes. Thermal, NVGs, etc.? No.

Is there emphasis on melee moves, and interrogations? Yes.
That was not the emphasis in previous games...

Can you move bodies? Yes, if you have them as human shields and move their bodies to the darkness. Enemies still go on alert if they see you left a dead body out in the open.
If that's OK with you, sure. But when every single past SC game has allowed you to move incapacitated enemies, why should it be removed?

Is Michael Ironside still the voice actor? Yes.
Because that is a core value of the series... Hah.

Do enemies have walk routines? Not really. Makes ghosting more difficult. But I don't mind that, because the enemies would feel robotic and a little outdated.
No, but they stand around in groups that encourage mark and execute, not stealth play.

[Joshua Morrison]

Yeah the main problem is they don't patrol so you have to play music or shoot things to get by them which is a real shame because once they have seen you and loose sight of you. If they make it the the LKP(If not they will never move) then after they see nothing is there they search in a very unpredictable way. Someone said they would look scriped and really they might a little but I think that the AI is pretty realistic when they go in to search mode.. and it is my favorite part of convictions because it makes stealth do able and makes it hard.

[Stealthgamer001]

Originally posted by FrankieSatt:
::Raises Hand:: I will be the first to step up and say that Stealth, by the definintion of Stealth, IS NOT anywhere in the game.

You can't simplify Stealth. You either have it, or you don't. There is no middle ground, not in my opinion.

I'll again compare it to Splinter Cell Chaos Theory. In Chaos Theory, every single level could be completed in pure stealth.. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

Going by your definition of stealth, would you say that because Sam was required to kill someone in three missions (Lacerda, Nedich, Shetland) and be seen and identified at the end of two missions (Shetland and Otomo), that Splinter Cell Chaos theory, or at least those missions had no stealth whatsoever?

[Joshua Morrison]

I think stealth is staying undetected. That being said I'm fine with killing guards and moving on as long as no one finds the bodies... I'm not ok with having to shoot lights out while someone is in the room... shooting period while someone is in the area. I also think the music on the spy cam is completely stupid.... as a guard would walk up see that it is a camera and know that a spy is in the area. I think some other forms of luring should of been in the game. That and patrolling guards, its impossible to sneak up on two that are standing side by side and take them out stealthy with out luring or playing the waiting game(o but they don't patrol ever).

[Xx_Redex_xX]

I noticed the guards will not shoot the sticky cameras this time around. I found that odd myself.

As for frankie ive confirmed you can get to the end without alerts in my own attempts but you would be right in the sence that they know your there via alert via scripted event near the end.

[CoastalGirl]

Originally posted by FrankieSatt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
People are free to express their opinions here - if you don't agree that's fine, but suggesting that someone just stop posting if they don't agree isn't really appropriate. Giving constructive feedback on the game is encouraged (and that applies to everyone - saying the game is simply great [or not great] is okay, but without any details on why, the information's not as useful).

Anyway, I don't think anyone thinks that there isn't stealth in SCC. I see less emphasis on it, though, and what is there has been simplified (not really an opinion; the CD said they wanted to make it more binary). Does that make the game bad? Not at all. Do I think it'd be better with more stealth? Absolutely. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ::Raises Hand:: I will be the first to step up and say that Stealth, by the definintion of Stealth, IS NOT anywhere in the game.

You can't simplify Stealth. You either have it, or you don't. There is no middle ground, not in my opinion.

I'll again compare it to Splinter Cell Chaos Theory. In Chaos Theory, every single level could be completed in pure stealth.. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. That can't be done with Conviction and I seriously doubt it can be done in ANY level, despite what Beland and Co. say.

I have yet to see it done, I have yet to see anyone do it in the demo and until I see it done or do it myself than I'll continue to be skeptical of any kind of stealth being in Conviction. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Though ghosting is my favorite thing to do and what I prefer for the SCs for an additional reason (I'm not into Sam killing everyone http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif), I do think that if you can remain undetected, it's still stealthy, even if you kill people (some stealth games are built on it, like the Tenchus - kill everyone without being seen).

As for being simplified, I should have worded that differently. I do agree that, on one level, you're either stealthy or you're not, but I guess I just have to reserve that for the "now", and look at it from the "have I been detected?" perspective. If you leave traces that could be found after the fact...well...I dunno. That's kind of a gray area - not as stealthy, but how much less would vary depending on what you did, if you could be identified from it, etc. In any case, what I really meant was that the stealth features have been simplified (like hidden/not vs. various degrees of hidden based on distance, silent crouched movement, etc).

As far as SCC goes, no it won't be a complete stealth game. They've said that already - there are special circumstances that will prevent it. However, all of the games have either had full-on assault sections, or at least sections that couldn't be ghosted. If you can sneak the rest of the time, it's still something... I just would have liked it if the stealth features were at least as sophisticated as in the past games, and if there was at least one full-stealth path through (at least most of the time). If they want to focus on the M&E, fine, but if I approach a level as the stealth player that I am, and try to find a hidden duct or something so I can bypass the enemies entirely, I'd like to be able to do that.

[Firecracker22]

For a stealth game to be hardcore, it needs to allow for ghosting.

Forcing you to ghost can be a problem, I agree. But, to say that allowing players the option of being able to ghost a level is "biased" is pretty out there.

Players should be able to tackle the levels anyway they want, but one of the ways should include being a ninja.

[Andre202]

Originally posted by JoshuaMorrison:
I think stealth is staying undetected. That being said I'm fine with killing guards and moving on as long as no one finds the bodies... I'm not ok with having to shoot lights out while someone is in the room... shooting period while someone is in the area. I also think the music on the spy cam is completely stupid.... as a guard would walk up see that it is a camera and know that a spy is in the area. I think some other forms of luring should of been in the game. That and patrolling guards, its impossible to sneak up on two that are standing side by side and take them out stealthy with out luring or playing the waiting game(o but they don't patrol ever).
I was like: "What the hell!?", when I heared the sound of the spy cam. I thought hisper was taken out because it doesn't make sence (isn't realistic) but now with have even this. Well ok. When I look at the game I feel like it hasn't much gameplay anymore. It's like I have seen all gameplay features there isn't more of them. In the other Splinter Cell you got always additional moves. And I found move firstly after I had the game two years. And it was the feature that after Sam is knocking a guard he is carrying him directly and doesn't let the body fall on the ground. I hope it will be the same way in Conviction but I don't think it will happen.

[CoastalGirl]

Originally posted by Andre202:
I was like: "What the hell!?", when I heared the sound of the spy cam. I thought hisper was taken out because it doesn't make sence (isn't realistic) but now with have even this. Well ok. I was a little surprised by the cam music, too... I would have gone with something more dismissible, like a cell phone ringing.

[LazyAmerican]

lmao "murderous action junkies" priceless that gave me a good chuckle.

[DerSeeBaer]

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Andre202:
I was like: "What the hell!?", when I heared the sound of the spy cam. I thought hisper was taken out because it doesn't make sence (isn't realistic) but now with have even this. Well ok. I was a little surprised by the cam music, too... I would have gone with something more dismissible, like a cell phone ringing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats actually a really good idea

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Originally posted by digi_matrix:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
That's ok man. If you don't understand how it's fun, that's fine. You just don't find stealth gaming appealing. Most people just want to murder and slaughter their way through a level and their way to the objective.

Murderous action junkies like yourself...
Yo, I take issue with this. I can get 100% on every mission of Chaos Theory. I own all the games, even the Xbox version of Double Agent. I'm no "murderous action junkie", I just believe you should use what the game gives you.

In fact, the stealth genre was the first genre I meddled with, starting with Tenchu on the Playstation. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well then that really defeats the whole purpose of this thread, doesn't it?

I just assumed that if you think "ghosting is dumb", then you much prefer doing the opposite and killing everyone.

The whole point of a GOOD stealth game is that while you are playing the role of an infiltration specialist, it is supposed to entertain you and make you enjoy the experience while you keep your presence hidden.

Obviously, this game is NOT built around that experience. You *can* ghost through a level if you want, but it's not going to be fun, because the mechanics are not designed for it, there is a very limited selection of tools for the job and it seems the majority of the fun was designed into the action part of the game.

[FrankieSatt]

Originally posted by Stealthgamer001:
Going by your definition of stealth, would you say that because Sam was required to kill someone in three missions (Lacerda, Nedich, Shetland) and be seen and identified at the end of two missions (Shetland and Otomo), that Splinter Cell Chaos theory, or at least those missions had no stealth whatsoever?

Those Lacerda was stealthy, no one heard me or saw me or knew I was even on board the ship. Nedich was the same way. Shetland you had no choice and that was at the end of the level, again it was forced upon you but the rest of the level you can ghost through. Otomo you had no choice but for him to see you at the end.

I have no problems with killing someone, if I can do it without anyknow knowing I was there. When they start calling out intruders and calling out your name than you are no longer stealthy, and that is what I have a problem with.

[Kooichi-kun]

Before I speak up I just want to say my opinion is going to be based off the fact that my only experience with splinter cell is the first few levels of the first Splinter Cell and I don't know how different the other 4 are compared to it.

Anyways, I hated the first Splinter Cell. I thought it was a whole representation of why a stealth fan such as myself never played most stealth video games. I had absolutely no freedom. They're were always like two ways to get through a situation and if you made one little mistake, you'd have to start the entire thing all over. The game never letme improvise or do things my way.

Every mission I played(before selling it) was very scripted and made you guess on what you had to do. For example, one mission inside a military camp, I believe, had you stalking this guy with a briefcase. At one point they went inside a warehouse and two guards were stationed infront of the door. I retried the whole mission eight times, trying to improvise and do my own tactics, but they always failed because the mission was structured so there would be only one way to pass it. I had to turn a water valve to distract them. How the heck would I know that some random thing in the level design would have to be used. Seriously, in my first try? Splinter Cell was just a straight up trial and error game. It also did that annoying thing where everybody would automatically know where you are if you messed up the stealth. So it forced you to do things its way.

I love stealth. The Thief series did stealth right. You were free to tactical the objective the way you wanted and guards acted realistically instead of god-like when your spotted. Truly feeling smart when you pull of a mission stealthy involving planning it out your way, not way the game wants you to do. That's why I love using stealth in online multiplayer games. I'm stealthy in games like Uncharted 2 and Modern Warfare all the time. I take smart routes and come behind the enemy without anyone else noticing me. It's very slow and patient, but incredibly rewarding. Stealth has always been my tactic. And I always knew it was my fault if I screwed up. Stealth should not be linear.

This is why I really love Splinter Cell Conviction. I re-played the demo like 30 times and found sooooo many ways to get through an enemy-infested place without being spotted. Sure, I had to kill almost everyone most of the time, but I did it because it was in my plan, not because the game forced me. The game is structured in such a way that nobody will use the same tactic. Splinter Cell Conviction allows you to completely plan out your tactics and complete missions your way.

Also, what is the point of ghosting past everybody slowly and patiently when you have a more efficient way to pass by? Stealth is suppose to be efficient, not trying to prove something. I had to laugh at this one part in the first Splinter Cell where one guy was guarding a hallway and looking straight ahead from where you are. I could have climbed up a pole, slowly crept up from above him, distract him with a noise, and then finally jump down and ghost by. What did I do? I shot him in the face. Nice and quietly.

That's all I have to say. I completely agree with the topic creator and just felt like expressing my opinion here instead of a new topic ^^;

[Erico360]

Originally posted by Kooichi-kun:
Before I speak up I just want to say my opinion is going to be based off the fact that my only experience with splinter cell is the first few levels of the first Splinter Cell and I don't know how different the other 4 are compared to it.

Anyways, I hated the first Splinter Cell. I thought it was a whole representation of why a stealth fan such as myself never played most stealth video games. I had absolutely no freedom. They're were always like two ways to get through a situation and if you made one little mistake, you'd have to start the entire thing all over. The game never letme improvise or do things my way.

Every mission I played(before selling it) was very scripted and made you guess on what you had to do. For example, one mission inside a military camp, I believe, had you stalking this guy with a briefcase. At one point they went inside a warehouse and two guards were stationed infront of the door. I retried the whole mission eight times, trying to improvise and do my own tactics, but they always failed because the mission was structured so there would be only one way to pass it. I had to turn a water valve to distract them. How the heck would I know that some random thing in the level design would have to be used. Seriously, in my first try? Splinter Cell was just a straight up trial and error game. It also did that annoying thing where everybody would automatically know where you are if you messed up the stealth. So it forced you to do things its way.

I love stealth. The Thief series did stealth right. You were free to tactical the objective the way you wanted and guards acted realistically instead of god-like when your spotted. Truly feeling smart when you pull of a mission stealthy involving planning it out your way, not way the game wants you to do. That's why I love using stealth in online multiplayer games. I'm stealthy in games like Uncharted 2 and Modern Warfare all the time. I take smart routes and come behind the enemy without anyone else noticing me. It's very slow and patient, but incredibly rewarding. Stealth has always been my tactic. And I always knew it was my fault if I screwed up. Stealth should not be linear.

This is why I really love Splinter Cell Conviction. I re-played the demo like 30 times and found sooooo many ways to get through an enemy-infested place without being spotted. Sure, I had to kill almost everyone most of the time, but I did it because it was in my plan, not because the game forced me. The game is structured in such a way that nobody will use the same tactic. Splinter Cell Conviction allows you to completely plan out your tactics and complete missions your way.

Also, what is the point of ghosting past everybody slowly and patiently when you have a more efficient way to pass by? Stealth is suppose to be efficient, not trying to prove something. I had to laugh at this one part in the first Splinter Cell where one guy was guarding a hallway and looking straight ahead from where you are. I could have climbed up a pole, slowly crept up from above him, distract him with a noise, and then finally jump down and ghost by. What did I do? I shot him in the face. Nice and quietly.

That's all I have to say. I completely agree with the topic creator and just felt like expressing my opinion here instead of a new topic ^^;

to bad you expressed it with to mutch words:P

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Wow.... an avid Thief fan who says that ghosting is dumb and prefers shooting guards in the face instead of elaborately sneaking by.

I never thought I'd see the day!

But I have to say that the AI in Thief is no where near realistic and is quite sub par in comparison to Splinter Cell, but then again it was about 3-4 years older. That said, the ALL KNOWING AI in some Splinter Cell situations that instantly and psychically communicated your position was irritating and needed to be removed.

And Splinter Cell has come a long way from the original. In Chaos Theory it was no longer "1 mistake = FAIL" and the situation you're talking about on the oil rig has a few solutions to it.

The reason that Thief is so successful is because it gives you HUGE open maps with several objectives dotted around the location, so you can move how you want through the level. Splinter Cell has always been a pretty linear game and I suspect Conviction to be JUST as linear as every other Splinter Cell, because you will HAVE to interrogate each scene and the big wide corridors will only have a few routes. I also doubt that you'll retrace your steps at all, just like in the other games.

[kalle90]

Double post. Have these forums gotten slower?

[kalle90]

Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
I think the irony is that with previous titles using stealth to avoid enemies was easier to get thru than engaging them. It's agreed that these were stealth oriented games and engaging them got you killed quickly on harder levels.

Now with Conviction being more action oriented it actually makes stealth more challenging and playing with M&E is easy even on harder levels. So it's funny to see the dark siders complain about the game being action oriented because in making the game that way they made stealth more challenging and I'd think therefore more satisfying when you complete it without engaging any guards.

Meaning Halo, GTA and other action games are the ultimate ghosting/stealth games http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Or the best example: Perfect Dark Zero. Advertised as an amazing action-stealth-driving-everything game. In reality the stealth is absolutely horrible and ghosting either pure luck or impossible.

Without whistling and such Conviction might get pretty close to that. It seems ghosting is usually possible through luck and idiot AI.

Those said, I wouldn't ghost on my first playthrough. I never did that on any SC. I took things as they were real. Killing or knocking out people are better alternatives than a risk of dying. Sometimes I was just "mad" or didn't have to care about the merciless enemies or about leaving traces and killed pretty much everyone like on Kalinatek and New York.

That said, I think this game is a worse version of Arkham Asylum. Stealth is about the same quality, but Batman has actual combat and intuitive puzzles and tools. Batarangs are that much more exciting than guns with infinite bullets

[Kooichi-kun]

At one point in Thief there was one guy guarding a door and I could have shot a noise arrow to distract him. Instead of wasting it, I pulled out my sword, brutally murdered him, and kept going without a problem. Like I said, it's being efficient instead of of proving something xD; I ghost when it's best to ghost, I knock out guards when it's best to knock out guards, and, very rarely, I'll brutally murder them.

I never played the other games because reviews still said the other Splinter Cell games were just as scripted and a trial and error frustrating mess like the first one. I have no way of knowing that since I never played them.

Conviction is linear in your objectives, but not how you tackle the stealth potions. It's kinda like Batman Arkam Asylum. The game leads you through a pretty straight path, but in the stealth sections your completely free to take out the enemies your way. It's the same in Conviction, but you don't have to take out all the enemies unless your objective needs to, such as when you must kill everybody in the room to interrogate Kobin. But even then your still free to break in the room and improvise with your own tactics. I've heard in many previews you can still ghost, but the demo didn't really let you. Joystiq's walkthrough of the demo said this.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Thief strongly discourages killing.

"You're a thief, not a murderer" is often an objective and doing so will result in a mission fail.

And I doubt any reviews called the Splinter Cell games "just as scripted and a trial and error frustrating mess" and still gave them scores in excess of 9 (apart from DA)

Either way, it seems that the issue here is that by providing the freedom that you speak of, that the quality in stealth gameplay has been drastically reduced to the point that it's completely basic and uninspiring.

It's a shame because a proper Splinter Cell game providing the freedom you speak of, while still providing in depth and entertaining stealth gameplay would really be worth getting!!

[sumoaltus]

Ergh, you know what's funny, I really want to play the older ones but I don't have them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

Fox do you know if there's any way to download them off of XBL?

[vanityxo]

Ghosting = Spectating an enemy player in multiplayer and relaying the information to your friend on the opposing team so they constantly know where the enemy is.


And the fun part of stealth is strategy, planning your run perfectly so that you avoid all contact with the enemy.

The enemy is a problem, finding a way around them is the solution, and while brute force and bullets is ignoring the problem, stealth is solving it.

[Kooichi-kun]

Same with the old Splinter Cell. When I couldn't kill, I wouldn't kill. That didn't bother me. It's the fact that most "stealth portions" in SC were scripted.

The reviews I was talking about did give the SC games a 9 and still criticized the trial & error and scripted stealth. The SC series is great, but terrible as a stealth game, in my opinion. Stealth needs freedom.

How is Conviction's stealth simple and uninspiring? You have like a thousand ways to combat one stealth portion without being spotted.

Splinter Conviction gives you tons of freedom. I've watched a bunch of demo walkthroughs and they're always unique.

[sumoaltus]

Originally posted by Kooichi-kun:
Same with the old Splinter Cell. When I couldn't kill, I wouldn't kill. That didn't bother me. It's the fact that most "stealth portions" in SC were scripted.

The reviews I was talking about did give the SC games a 9 and still criticized the trial & error and scripted stealth. The SC series is great, but terrible as a stealth game, in my opinion. Stealth needs freedom.

How is Conviction's stealth simple and uninspiring? You have like a thousand ways to combat one stealth portion without being spotted.

Splinter Conviction gives you tons of freedom. I've watched a bunch of demo walkthroughs and they're always unique.

I concur. While it's not full sandbox it still gives you multiple options in completing your goals.

Previous SCs - while still fun - were scripted stealth though.

[Andre202]

Originally posted by sumoaltus:
Ergh, you know what's funny, I really want to play the older ones but I don't have them http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif.

Fox do you know if there's any way to download them off of XBL?
I think there was one online shop that sold SCC with a XBL code for Splinter Cell Chaos Theory. But I am not sure.

[sumoaltus]

Maybe I can find something.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

The stealth is simple and uninspiring because it is pretty much the exact same stealth from the original games, with no new improvements, but plenty of reductions and less options.

It is uninspiring because the AI has been designed and programmed to primarily function for the M&E feature and to locate with the LKP feature - both of which do not lend themselves to interesting and tense stealth gameplay.

They do lend themselves particularly well to action orientated gameplay though.

But as an avid stealth gamer, I've waited almost 5 years for this game to bring stealth to the next level and it has taken steps backwards in several departments. At least with the old Conviction, however bad it looked in some departments, it was trying to bring something new and fresh to stealth gameplay.

"Stealth - The art of going unnoticed"

It's not so much an art in Conviction as it is trying to forcibly and gruffly manipulate the ill suited AI with watered down stealth mechanics.

[Kooichi-kun]

Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
The stealth is simple and uninspiring because it is pretty much the exact same stealth from the original games, with no new improvements, but plenty of reductions and less options.

It is uninspiring because the AI has been designed and programmed to primarily function for the M&E feature and to locate with the LKP feature - both of which do not lend themselves to interesting and tense stealth gameplay.

They do lend themselves particularly well to action orientated gameplay though.

But as an avid stealth gamer, I've waited almost 5 years for this game to bring stealth to the next level and it has taken steps backwards in several departments. At least with the old Conviction, however bad it looked in some departments, it was trying to bring something new and fresh to stealth gameplay.

"Stealth - The art of going unnoticed"

It's not so much an art in Conviction as it is trying to forcibly and gruffly manipulate the ill suited AI with watered down stealth mechanics.

They're introducing freedom to the Splinter Cell series and redefining stealth action. LKP is one of the best stealth mechanics ever created, in my opinion. The beginning AI are dumb with it, but they've already confirmed the AI in the more later parts of the game will try to flank you instead of focusing solely on your LKP. It is innovative.

How are AI functioned to M&E? You don't even need to use it most of the time. I rarely wasted my M&E points in the demo.

Conviction is a stealth action game, like how all Splinter Cells used to be advertised. It lets you strike from the shadows UNNOTICED. You can be noisy to scare the guards or separate them. Or you can take them out slowly and quietly. It's still stealth if they can't see you.

[JAHman28]

Originally posted by Kooichi-kun:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
The stealth is simple and uninspiring because it is pretty much the exact same stealth from the original games, with no new improvements, but plenty of reductions and less options.

It is uninspiring because the AI has been designed and programmed to primarily function for the M&E feature and to locate with the LKP feature - both of which do not lend themselves to interesting and tense stealth gameplay.

They do lend themselves particularly well to action orientated gameplay though.

But as an avid stealth gamer, I've waited almost 5 years for this game to bring stealth to the next level and it has taken steps backwards in several departments. At least with the old Conviction, however bad it looked in some departments, it was trying to bring something new and fresh to stealth gameplay.

"Stealth - The art of going unnoticed"

It's not so much an art in Conviction as it is trying to forcibly and gruffly manipulate the ill suited AI with watered down stealth mechanics.

They're introducing freedom to the Splinter Cell series and redefining stealth action. LKP is one of the best stealth mechanics ever created, in my opinion. The beginning AI are dumb with it, but they've already confirmed the AI in the more later parts of the game will try to flank you instead of focusing solely on your LKP. It is innovative.

How are AI functioned to M&E? You don't even need to use it most of the time. I rarely wasted my M&E points in the demo.

Conviction is a stealth action game, like how all Splinter Cells used to be advertised. It lets you strike from the shadows UNNOTICED. You can be noisy to scare the guards or separate them. Or you can take them out slowly and quietly. It's still stealth if they can't see you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hooray!
conviction is whatever you want it to be!

ghosting,
action-stealth
or flat out action.
problem resolved.

[FrankieSatt]

Originally posted by Kooichi-kun:They're introducing freedom to the Splinter Cell series and redefining stealth action. LKP is one of the best stealth mechanics ever created, in my opinion. The beginning AI are dumb with it, but they've already confirmed the AI in the more later parts of the game will try to flank you instead of focusing solely on your LKP. It is innovative.

How are AI functioned to M&E? You don't even need to use it most of the time. I rarely wasted my M&E points in the demo.

Conviction is a stealth action game, like how all Splinter Cells used to be advertised. It lets you strike from the shadows UNNOTICED. You can be noisy to scare the guards or separate them. Or you can take them out slowly and quietly. It's still stealth if they can't see you.

Unfortunalty you missed the one important part of being UNKNOWN. Without that there is no Stealth.

[altair2nd]

Originally posted by FrankieSatt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kooichi-kun:They're introducing freedom to the Splinter Cell series and redefining stealth action. LKP is one of the best stealth mechanics ever created, in my opinion. The beginning AI are dumb with it, but they've already confirmed the AI in the more later parts of the game will try to flank you instead of focusing solely on your LKP. It is innovative.

How are AI functioned to M&E? You don't even need to use it most of the time. I rarely wasted my M&E points in the demo.

Conviction is a stealth action game, like how all Splinter Cells used to be advertised. It lets you strike from the shadows UNNOTICED. You can be noisy to scare the guards or separate them. Or you can take them out slowly and quietly. It's still stealth if they can't see you.

Unfortunalty you missed the one important part of being UNKNOWN. Without that there is no Stealth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Being unknown is ghosting, there is stealth, but not really hardcore stealth/ghosting.

[savior2006]

Originally posted by Kooichi-kun:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
The stealth is simple and uninspiring because it is pretty much the exact same stealth from the original games, with no new improvements, but plenty of reductions and less options.

It is uninspiring because the AI has been designed and programmed to primarily function for the M&E feature and to locate with the LKP feature - both of which do not lend themselves to interesting and tense stealth gameplay.

They do lend themselves particularly well to action orientated gameplay though.

But as an avid stealth gamer, I've waited almost 5 years for this game to bring stealth to the next level and it has taken steps backwards in several departments. At least with the old Conviction, however bad it looked in some departments, it was trying to bring something new and fresh to stealth gameplay.

"Stealth - The art of going unnoticed"

It's not so much an art in Conviction as it is trying to forcibly and gruffly manipulate the ill suited AI with watered down stealth mechanics.
They're introducing freedom to the Splinter Cell series and redefining stealth action. LKP is one of the best stealth mechanics ever created, in my opinion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

[rEsage]

Originally posted by bigbiz:
Technically, you can't ghost in this game anyways. They know you're coming after them. It's just a matter of when.

Of course, in the demo they know you are coming. It was said in the little cut scene that they know "Fisher" is coming. So clearly they know you are there and is just a matter of when.

Other parts of the game they mite not know you are on your way resulting in a 100% ghosting experience (I'm assuming)

[rEsage]

Originally posted by digi_matrix:
Really, would you ever do ghosting on your first playthrough of a game? Just going past enemies to the end of a level and not doing anything, how is that a videogame?

Some people like to "role play" the game. Taking on the role of Sam Fisher in the way they see it. If they see him getting revenge by ghosting (in a rp way not risking their life by getting into gun fights) to get to the guy who caused him pain then that is their story.

If they see revenge as killing every man they see like a wild man then that is also their story.

It makes it more of an immerseful game play and also the re-play value of it.

[DeafAtheist]

Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:

That's like saying "It's harder to cycle your bike by pedalling backwards, but when you do do it, it's more satisfying"

Clearly not the case. Stealth in this game would be more satisfying if the challenges were built around it and if the game's design was orientated around intricate and fun ways of accomplishing it - not trying to make it fit in with dodgy, simplified mechanics and AI designed to be M&E-ed.

First of all your metaphor doesn't work because pedaling a bike backwards won't get you anywhere. You just pedal in place and lose your balance because you're not moving.

Conviction was made with the attempt at creating a game that incorporated both stealth and action and after playing thru the demo multiple times I feel they've succeeded in it. I have a few negative issues with the game but ultimately I think the changes are just what the series needed to move forward and actually improve replay value. I've never played a demo so much in my life and I can only imagine how much I'm going to be playing the full game next month.

Playing thru earlier titles using stealth and not engaging any enemies was time consuming but ultimately quite easy to do. It was just a matter of studying guard movements and a few trial and error attempts. Once you've mastered it you could zoom thru the whole game effortlessly.

With Conviction we've basically lost the ability to move bodies, whistle, throw environmental items to distract guards, and do the split jump. I admit these things are a loss, but I don't mind so much losing the ability to move bodies. I do miss the split jump, whistling, and throwing environmental objects tho. But I can deal with their loss. It makes the game more challenging from a stealth perspective without them because you have to figure out how to get around an enemy without being able to distract them from their post.

With the added ability to M&E the game just got a heck of a lot more fun because you can play thru with stealth or you can play thru as an action shooter or a combination of both in ways you couldn't ever do before. If you tried to utilize action in the previous titles and shoot your way out you'd find yourself dead in seconds because the game wasn't meant to be played that way. But this game it's made to be played both ways and I think that's a major improvement on the franchise. Some things had to be unfortunately given up for this to be done but I think it's a move in the right direction. It gave the single player campaign and I assume the the multiplayer campaign replay value that the game never had before.

[DeafAtheist]

Originally posted by Cyrus.H:
I'm not bashing the game or insulting people, I'm telling the truth.

Yes you are bashing the game and it's not the truth you are telling but rather a personal opinion. There's a difference. I know a lot of egotistical people think their opinions are facts but the reality is they're not.

[Rhee512]

Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
I know a lot of egotistical people think their opinions are facts but the reality is they're not.

If there was anything that could EVER be quoted for truth, this would be it. You sir are awesome and I strongly desire to be your friend, build sand castles together and do all sorts of fun things!

[Cyrus.H]

Originally posted by Benddontbreak:
I guess my question is this. I have a job, family responsibilities and other things I like to do besides Video Games, so if there was a game I hated and was not going to buy I wouldn't bother posting on its forums, I would just let it go. Why can't you?
I can't "let it go" because if there is only complete and utter noobish praise, then Ubisoft Montréal will think that they were doing the right thing in scrapping the Chaos Theory development team and the '07 build of ConViction. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/compsmash.gif

Not to mention that online Internet forums are for discussion, in case if you didn't know that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

Now, my turn to ask the questions. Why are you posting about a video game you obviously love and will buy anyway, instead of just letting it go?


Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
People are free to express their opinions here - if you don't agree that's fine, but suggesting that someone just stop posting if they don't agree isn't really appropriate. Giving constructive feedback on the game is encouraged (and that applies to everyone - saying the game is simply great [or not great] is okay, but without any details on why, the information's not as useful).

Anyway, I don't think anyone thinks that there isn't stealth in SCC. I see less emphasis on it, though, and what is there has been simplified (not really an opinion; the CD said they wanted to make it more binary). Does that make the game bad? Not at all. Do I think it'd be better with more stealth? Absolutely. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I thought that the development team wanted Conviction to be less binary? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

As in, instead of being hidden in 83% shadow and exposed in 17% light, they wanted a system where you were either hidden or exposed with no level in between.

This sounds good in theory, but it just doesn't work in Conviction because of the ******ed black-and-white desaturation visual effect. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif


Originally posted by Stealthgamer001:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FrankieSatt:
::Raises Hand:: I will be the first to step up and say that Stealth, by the definintion of Stealth, IS NOT anywhere in the game.

You can't simplify Stealth. You either have it, or you don't. There is no middle ground, not in my opinion.

I'll again compare it to Splinter Cell Chaos Theory. In Chaos Theory, every single level could be completed in pure stealth.. EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM.

Going by your definition of stealth, would you say that because Sam was required to kill someone in three missions (Lacerda, Nedich, Shetland) and be seen and identified at the end of two missions (Shetland and Otomo), that Splinter Cell Chaos theory, or at least those missions had no stealth whatsoever? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
You're only half correct on that one.

Just because you kill someone doesn't mean that there isn't stealth. What Conviction has done wrong here is removed the ability to conceal dead bodies, so that they're now lying in a lit area for the entire world to see. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

That's just one of the many reasons why Conviction fails at stealth. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


Originally posted by Kooichi-kun:
Before I speak up I just want to say my opinion is going to be based off the fact that my only experience with splinter cell is the first few levels of the first Splinter Cell and I don't know how different the other 4 are compared to it.

Anyways, I hated the first Splinter Cell. I thought it was a whole representation of why a stealth fan such as myself never played most stealth video games. I had absolutely no freedom. They're were always like two ways to get through a situation and if you made one little mistake, you'd have to start the entire thing all over. The game never letme improvise or do things my way.

Every mission I played(before selling it) was very scripted and made you guess on what you had to do. For example, one mission inside a military camp, I believe, had you stalking this guy with a briefcase. At one point they went inside a warehouse and two guards were stationed infront of the door. I retried the whole mission eight times, trying to improvise and do my own tactics, but they always failed because the mission was structured so there would be only one way to pass it. I had to turn a water valve to distract them. How the heck would I know that some random thing in the level design would have to be used. Seriously, in my first try? Splinter Cell was just a straight up trial and error game. It also did that annoying thing where everybody would automatically know where you are if you messed up the stealth. So it forced you to do things its way.

I love stealth. The Thief series did stealth right. You were free to tactical the objective the way you wanted and guards acted realistically instead of god-like when your spotted. Truly feeling smart when you pull of a mission stealthy involving planning it out your way, not way the game wants you to do. That's why I love using stealth in online multiplayer games. I'm stealthy in games like Uncharted 2 and Modern Warfare all the time. I take smart routes and come behind the enemy without anyone else noticing me. It's very slow and patient, but incredibly rewarding. Stealth has always been my tactic. And I always knew it was my fault if I screwed up. Stealth should not be linear.

This is why I really love Splinter Cell Conviction. I re-played the demo like 30 times and found sooooo many ways to get through an enemy-infested place without being spotted. Sure, I had to kill almost everyone most of the time, but I did it because it was in my plan, not because the game forced me. The game is structured in such a way that nobody will use the same tactic. Splinter Cell Conviction allows you to completely plan out your tactics and complete missions your way.

Also, what is the point of ghosting past everybody slowly and patiently when you have a more efficient way to pass by? Stealth is suppose to be efficient, not trying to prove something. I had to laugh at this one part in the first Splinter Cell where one guy was guarding a hallway and looking straight ahead from where you are. I could have climbed up a pole, slowly crept up from above him, distract him with a noise, and then finally jump down and ghost by. What did I do? I shot him in the face. Nice and quietly.

That's all I have to say. I completely agree with the topic creator and just felt like expressing my opinion here instead of a new topic ^^;
If you want more freedom then go play Chaos Theory and/or Double Agent, you definitely will enjoy them. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Originally posted by Kooichi-kun:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
The stealth is simple and uninspiring because it is pretty much the exact same stealth from the original games, with no new improvements, but plenty of reductions and less options.

It is uninspiring because the AI has been designed and programmed to primarily function for the M&E feature and to locate with the LKP feature - both of which do not lend themselves to interesting and tense stealth gameplay.

They do lend themselves particularly well to action orientated gameplay though.

But as an avid stealth gamer, I've waited almost 5 years for this game to bring stealth to the next level and it has taken steps backwards in several departments. At least with the old Conviction, however bad it looked in some departments, it was trying to bring something new and fresh to stealth gameplay.

"Stealth - The art of going unnoticed"

It's not so much an art in Conviction as it is trying to forcibly and gruffly manipulate the ill suited AI with watered down stealth mechanics.

They're introducing freedom to the Splinter Cell series and redefining stealth action. LKP is one of the best stealth mechanics ever created, in my opinion. The beginning AI are dumb with it, but they've already confirmed the AI in the more later parts of the game will try to flank you instead of focusing solely on your LKP. It is innovative.

How are AI functioned to M&E? You don't even need to use it most of the time. I rarely wasted my M&E points in the demo.

Conviction is a stealth action game, like how all Splinter Cells used to be advertised. It lets you strike from the shadows UNNOTICED. You can be noisy to scare the guards or separate them. Or you can take them out slowly and quietly. It's still stealth if they can't see you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Just because they can't see you, doesn't mean that it's still stealth. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

Half the guards on every level are screaming, "COME OUT FISHER!!1" because that's the only thing that they've been scripted to do (aside from purposely missing at shooting you, while you run away).


Originally posted by rEsage:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bigbiz:
Technically, you can't ghost in this game anyways. They know you're coming after them. It's just a matter of when.

Of course, in the demo they know you are coming. It was said in the little cut scene that they know "Fisher" is coming. So clearly they know you are there and is just a matter of when.

Other parts of the game they mite not know you are on your way resulting in a 100% ghosting experience (I'm assuming) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The guards on the warehouse level also know in some magical psychic way that the reason why one of their EMP bombs fell from the ceiling must be because it was shot down by Fisher, instead of a faulty cable.

Conviction fails at stealth. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:

That's like saying "It's harder to cycle your bike by pedalling backwards, but when you do do it, it's more satisfying"

Clearly not the case. Stealth in this game would be more satisfying if the challenges were built around it and if the game's design was orientated around intricate and fun ways of accomplishing it - not trying to make it fit in with dodgy, simplified mechanics and AI designed to be M&E-ed.

First of all your metaphor doesn't work because pedaling a bike backwards won't get you anywhere. You just pedal in place and lose your balance because you're not moving. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Which is exactly what playing stealthily in Conviction will be like because the game is not built to be played in a stealthy way, despite claiming to have been.


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
Conviction was made with the attempt at creating a game that incorporated both stealth and action and after playing thru the demo multiple times I feel they've succeeded in it. I have a few negative issues with the game but ultimately I think the changes are just what the series needed to move forward and actually improve replay value. I've never played a demo so much in my life and I can only imagine how much I'm going to be playing the full game next month.
OK.


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
Playing thru earlier titles using stealth and not engaging any enemies was time consuming but ultimately quite easy to do. It was just a matter of studying guard movements and a few trial and error attempts. Once you've mastered it you could zoom thru the whole game effortlessly.
Previous games weren't effortless, they required a lot of time and patience.

Conviction does not, thus it is effortless.


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
With Conviction we've basically lost the ability to move bodies, whistle, throw environmental items to distract guards, and do the split jump. I admit these things are a loss, but I don't mind so much losing the ability to move bodies. I do miss the split jump, whistling, and throwing environmental objects tho. But I can deal with their loss. It makes the game more challenging from a stealth perspective without them because you have to figure out how to get around an enemy without being able to distract them from their post.
So according to your logic, it would be much more rewarding to play Thief like it was a standard Doom or Quake first-person shooter because the game wasn't designed to be played like that? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
With the added ability to M&E the game just got a heck of a lot more fun because you can play thru with stealth or you can play thru as an action shooter or a combination of both in ways you couldn't ever do before.
That's opinion, not fact.


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
If you tried to utilize action in the previous titles and shoot your way out you'd find yourself dead in seconds because the game wasn't meant to be played that way.
You would expect that from a stealth action game, wouldn't you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And you wouldn't necessarily be killed in seconds.

That's why Chaos Theory and Double Agent provided sniper and shotgun attachments to the SC-20K rifle, to give us the ability to use lethal force in a situation where gadgets and close quarters combat are not feasible.


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
But this game it's made to be played both ways and I think that's a major improvement on the franchise.
Chaos Theory has already done that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
Some things had to be unfortunately given up for this to be done...
Like the core values of the entire Splinter Cell series?


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
...but I think it's a move in the right direction. It gave the single player campaign and I assume the the multiplayer campaign replay value that the game never had before.
Again, that's opinion.

There's nothing to suggest that the single player and multiplayer campaigns will have sufficient replay value to make you want to play the entire game a second time.

Co-op is the only exception and even that is going to get stale.


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Cyrus.H:
I'm not bashing the game or insulting people, I'm telling the truth.

Yes you are bashing the game and it's not the truth you are telling but rather a personal opinion. There's a difference. I know a lot of egotistical people think their opinions are facts but the reality is they're not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That sounds just like you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

[gilmourechoes]

DeafAtheist really is on the ball here. I agree wholeheartedly with all of his posts. He transcends being merely a "darksider" or a "lightsider" rather, he just sees the game how it is and is unbiased.

[vanityxo]

If you want to model a game after stealth and action where the player has a choice of what to do but the game itself favours stealth.

The game to mimic is Metal Gear Solid.


You have the freedom to pursue each goal as you wish, by stealth which is more difficult, or by action and combat.
What makes the game stealth oriented is that combat is made in a way that makes it easier than stealth, but it still takes a longer time to complete your goals that way.

Enemies will call in reinforcements, they will start ganging up on you. And while you can overcome these things fairly easily by superior firepower or using different kinds of tactics.

Ultimately the person who completes it the fastest is the one who uses stealth and subterfuge.

[Mesotie]

Originally posted by vanityxo:
If you want to model a game after stealth and action where the player has a choice of what to do but the game itself favours stealth.

The game to mimic is Metal Gear Solid.


You have the freedom to pursue each goal as you wish, by stealth which is more difficult, or by action and combat.
What makes the game stealth oriented is that combat is made in a way that makes it easier than stealth, but it still takes a longer time to complete your goals that way.

Enemies will call in reinforcements, they will start ganging up on you. And while you can overcome these things fairly easily by superior firepower or using different kinds of tactics.

Ultimately the person who completes it the fastest is the one who uses stealth and subterfuge.

Every past SC favored stealth. and Metal Gear's stealth is pretty different from SC's.

[Mattathias2009]

Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
I think the irony is that with previous titles using stealth to avoid enemies was easier to get thru than engaging them. It's agreed that these were stealth oriented games and engaging them got you killed quickly on harder levels.

Now with Conviction being more action oriented it actually makes stealth more challenging and playing with M&E is easy even on harder levels. So it's funny to see the dark siders complain about the game being action oriented because in making the game that way they made stealth more challenging and I'd think therefore more satisfying when you complete it without engaging any guards.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I was telling my friends the exact same thing. All I can say is agreed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

[Mesotie]

Originally posted by Mattathias2009:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
I think the irony is that with previous titles using stealth to avoid enemies was easier to get thru than engaging them. It's agreed that these were stealth oriented games and engaging them got you killed quickly on harder levels.

Now with Conviction being more action oriented it actually makes stealth more challenging and playing with M&E is easy even on harder levels. So it's funny to see the dark siders complain about the game being action oriented because in making the game that way they made stealth more challenging and I'd think therefore more satisfying when you complete it without engaging any guards.

You took the words right out of my mouth. I was telling my friends the exact same thing. All I can say is agreed http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/clap.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah I also agree.

But, I think people have problems with it because in past SCs stealth was more deep. You could move bodies, whistle, there was a variety of darknesses, and the same with sound, etc.
So, there were more options available with the stealth, it was also easier to distract AI without using a gadget or gun.

[altair2nd]

Originally posted by gilmourechoes:
DeafAtheist really is on the ball here. I agree wholeheartedly with all of his posts. He transcends being merely a "darksider" or a "lightsider" rather, he just sees the game how it is and is unbiased. Yep, so do I.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Originally posted by Kooichi-kun:
They're introducing freedom to the Splinter Cell series and redefining stealth action. LKP is one of the best stealth mechanics ever created, in my opinion. The beginning AI are dumb with it, but they've already confirmed the AI in the more later parts of the game will try to flank you instead of focusing solely on your LKP. It is innovative.

That may be your opinion, but I'll whole heartily disagree with it and say that not only is it NOT innovative (as it has been in every Splinter Cell game before), but it's latest incarnation actively programs the AI to focus on one position where you have been seen once you're spotted and one position alone. They are completely ignorant to ANYTHING and EVERYTHING else once that LKP goes up.

And I completely disregard your comment that it's the greatest stealth mechanic ever created, seeing as it is an EVASION and FLANKING mechanic and requires you to be DETECTED in order to work.

How someone can call it the greatest stealth mechanic ever created is beyond me!

But, your opinion..


How are AI functioned to M&E? You don't even need to use it most of the time. I rarely wasted my M&E points in the demo.

They're grouped, stationary and clustered and don't actively patrol as a team.


Conviction is a stealth action game, like how all Splinter Cells used to be advertised. It lets you strike from the shadows UNNOTICED. You can be noisy to scare the guards or separate them. Or you can take them out slowly and quietly. It's still stealth if they can't see you.

Yes, you can do all of these things, but you can do none of them well.

Splinter Cell has always been advertised as a stealth action game, but it has primarily been a stealth game. It's roots are founded in Thief L&S stealth and Tom Clancy espionage action.

It's really fallen out of touch with both.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Originally posted by DeafAtheist:

First of all your metaphor doesn't work because pedaling a bike backwards won't get you anywhere. You just pedal in place and lose your balance because you're not moving.

You obviously only ride gear shifted mountain bikes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Conviction was made with the attempt at creating a game that incorporated both stealth and action and after playing thru the demo multiple times I feel they've succeeded in it. I have a few negative issues with the game but ultimately I think the changes are just what the series needed to move forward and actually improve replay value. I've never played a demo so much in my life and I can only imagine how much I'm going to be playing the full game next month.

Maybe, but from initial feedback this game is so easy that most experienced gamers will more than likely find little challenge in it other than actively trying to ghost, which has become less entertaining and increasingly irritating thanks to the reduced stealth mechanics.


Playing thru earlier titles using stealth and not engaging any enemies was time consuming but ultimately quite easy to do. It was just a matter of studying guard movements and a few trial and error attempts. Once you've mastered it you could zoom thru the whole game effortlessly.

Please explain how this game is going to be any different. In fact you don't even have to learn the patrol routes, because the guards don't even patrol. They just stand around. What exactly does this game offer that makes it any different, stealth wise, from the previous games that changes the situation you have just used as a means to promote the changes in this title?


With Conviction we've basically lost the ability to move bodies, whistle, throw environmental items to distract guards, and do the split jump. I admit these things are a loss, but I don't mind so much losing the ability to move bodies. I do miss the split jump, whistling, and throwing environmental objects tho. But I can deal with their loss. It makes the game more challenging from a stealth perspective without them because you have to figure out how to get around an enemy without being able to distract them from their post.

Exactly, just like how its more challenging to try and play Halo by going around and assassinating everyone by bashing the back of their head in - but that's not really how the game was designed to be fun. By more challenging I think you mean "the player is less well equipped with game mechanics" to achieve a stealthrough. Pretty much how you're complaining about the action scenario in the previous games below...


With the added ability to M&E the game just got a heck of a lot more fun because you can play thru with stealth or you can play thru as an action shooter or a combination of both in ways you couldn't ever do before. If you tried to utilize action in the previous titles and shoot your way out you'd find yourself dead in seconds because the game wasn't meant to be played that way.

Not true. I've regularly played the previous games in an action manner and frequently do not die in seconds. Don't confuse "trying to play through in action" with "caught unexpectedly out in the open with a guard on alert and can't shoot my way out"

And by most reports M&E makes the game far too easy when used and is primarily for newer players.


But this game it's made to be played both ways and I think that's a major improvement on the franchise.

Well that's the whole point that is being made. If this game was meant to be played through in stealth fashion then there would have been DEVELOPMENTS in that department of the game. But there were ZERO.


Some things had to be unfortunately given up for this to be done but I think it's a move in the right direction.

I'll disagree here. I think that just increasing Sam's combat response times and accuracy would have been enough. The way we have it now, this game looks simple.


It gave the single player campaign and I assume the the multiplayer campaign replay value that the game never had before.

We'll see, but I really don't. Many gamers have complained that realistic mode is already far too easy and stealth gamers will find this game far too easy to actively pursue multiple hours in, especially seeing as how the multiplayer modes all primarily focus on killing without 1 single objective based stealth orientated mode.

[Tzuu]

Err shadowfox Infiltration?

Infiltration is what hard-core Splinter Cell fans are looking for. You must clear out a map, much like Elimination. The only catch is you cannot be detected, for if you are, it's an immediate game over. This is the one mode where stealth is key to winning.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Originally posted by Tzuu:
Err shadowfox Infiltration?

Infiltration is what hard-core Splinter Cell fans are looking for. You must clear out a map, much like Elimination. The only catch is you cannot be detected, for if you are, it's an immediate game over. This is the one mode where stealth is key to winning.

Did you actually read my post or did you just start typing?

Is Infiltration a game mode focussed on killing? Yes!

Is it an objective based stealth mode? No!

That is of course, unless you consider "KILL EVERYONE YOU SEE" an objective my SC MP standards, which focus on stealthily achieving results in a level while remaining undetected and leaving minimal traces of your presence i.e. NO KILLING

[Tzuu]

Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Tzuu:
Err shadowfox Infiltration?

Infiltration is what hard-core Splinter Cell fans are looking for. You must clear out a map, much like Elimination. The only catch is you cannot be detected, for if you are, it's an immediate game over. This is the one mode where stealth is key to winning.

Did you actually read my post or did you just start typing?

Is Infiltration a game mode focussed on killing? Yes!

Is it an objective based stealth mode? No!

That is of course, unless you consider "KILL EVERYONE YOU SEE" an objective my SC MP standards, which focus on stealthily achieving results in a level while remaining undetected and leaving minimal traces of your presence i.e. NO KILLING </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
See you didn't say No Killing, you said NO STEALTH. Not being detected at all, is being stealthy.

[RanalS6]

Ghosting is where you go through a level with no killing and no detectiong. It is a form a stealth.

Is it an objective based stealth mode? No!

If your going through levels undetected not being seen and at the same time killing the A.I it is still stealth.

Even if you choose to use EMP to work around the A.I it is still stealth. And EMP does what? Knocks out the lights so you can be what? Invisible in the shadows. So you can do what? Sneak around.

Different definition of stealth:

1.Having or providing the ability to prevent detection by radar.

2.The act of moving, proceeding, or acting in a covert way.

3. difficult to detect by sight, sound, radar, and infrared energy.

So this is indeed still a stealth game. Maybe not as much as past SC games. And maybe not in "your opinion" or others. But it is.

Oh, and i dont think ghosting is dumb its just another way to play the game.

[DeafAtheist]

Originally posted by FrankieSatt:
Unfortunalty you missed the one important part of being UNKNOWN. Without that there is no Stealth.

Dude there's a difference between someone knowing you're coming and knowing you're there. If you go thru a whole mission without killing or knocking anyone out they don't know you're there. They just know you're coming. So it's still stealth.

[Joshua Morrison]

Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FrankieSatt:
Unfortunalty you missed the one important part of being UNKNOWN. Without that there is no Stealth.

Dude there's a difference between someone knowing you're coming and knowing you're there. If you go thru a whole mission without killing or knocking anyone out they don't know you're there. They just know you're coming. So it's still stealth. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unless they see a light get shot out while they are still in the room or they hear odd music, that would be a good indication that you are now there. Another problem is if you leave bodies out... all of these should cause a detection... maybe not the first two every time but it should be random depending on the guards personality..

[DeafAtheist]

Originally posted by Cyrus.H:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
Playing thru earlier titles using stealth and not engaging any enemies was time consuming but ultimately quite easy to do. It was just a matter of studying guard movements and a few trial and error attempts. Once you've mastered it you could zoom thru the whole game effortlessly.

Previous games weren't effortless, they required a lot of time and patience.

Conviction does not, thus it is effortless.

Dude I said that. I said they were time consuming and took studying guard movements. I said once you've memorized those movements and played thru the game again it would be effortless cuz you already know exactly how to get thru it... so it kills the replay value of the single player campaign cuz once you learn how to stealth thru each level then what's left? With Conviction you can play thru the level countless different ways. You can sneak past everyone or you can knock them all out or you can alternate how you use M&E. I've played thru the demo 50 different ways which I could not have done with earlier installments to the series.


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
With Conviction we've basically lost the ability to move bodies, whistle, throw environmental items to distract guards, and do the split jump. I admit these things are a loss, but I don't mind so much losing the ability to move bodies. I do miss the split jump, whistling, and throwing environmental objects tho. But I can deal with their loss. It makes the game more challenging from a stealth perspective without them because you have to figure out how to get around an enemy without being able to distract them from their post.


So according to your logic, it would be much more rewarding to play Thief like it was a standard Doom or Quake first-person shooter because the game wasn't designed to be played like that? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Wow did you ever miss my point. My point was simply that you have the option to play Conviction in different ways unlike earlier installments. That's how Ubisoft wanted it... to give the player more gameplay options.


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
With the added ability to M&E the game just got a heck of a lot more fun because you can play thru with stealth or you can play thru as an action shooter or a combination of both in ways you couldn't ever do before.


That's opinion, not fact.

Thank you for pointing out the obvious. I never claim anything I type in a post to be a fact here. Of course it's my opinion.


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
If you tried to utilize action in the previous titles and shoot your way out you'd find yourself dead in seconds because the game wasn't meant to be played that way.


You would expect that from a stealth action game, wouldn't you? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Yes I would indeed expect that from a stealth ACTION game. That's what I like about Conviction is it gives a player alternative ways to play thru the missions.


And you wouldn't necessarily be killed in seconds.

In some areas of the game especially on harder levels you could be. You couldn't run and gun thru the whole game if you wanted to without getting killed multiple times. With Conviction you can run and gun OR sneak around and avoid engagements. This would have been highly improbable in earlier titles.


That's why Chaos Theory and Double Agent provided sniper and shotgun attachments to the SC-20K rifle, to give us the ability to use lethal force in a situation where gadgets and close quarters combat are not feasible.

Why would they not be feasible? Aren't you dark siders complaining about not being able to "ghost" anymore? So what the heck would you need a shotgun or sniper attachment for? The shotgun I particularly found to be useless because it's a loud weapon in a game where you really should be being as quiet as possible. If I used a weapon playing thru the game it was most frequently the pistol with the silencer.


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
But this game it's made to be played both ways and I think that's a major improvement on the franchise.


Chaos Theory has already done that. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Oh yeah? You could run and gun thru CT without getting yourself killed multiple times? I'd really like to see a video walkthru of that. I've played CT. Action gameplay is NOT encouraged. With Conviction action OR stealth is encouraged.


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
Some things had to be unfortunately given up for this to be done...


Like the core values of the entire Splinter Cell series?

See we all have opinions don't we? Even you.


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
...but I think it's a move in the right direction. It gave the single player campaign and I assume the the multiplayer campaign replay value that the game never had before.


Again, that's opinion.

Again thank you for pointing out the obvious.


There's nothing to suggest that the single player and multiplayer campaigns will have sufficient replay value to make you want to play the entire game a second time.

Co-op is the only exception and even that is going to get stale.

Your opinion again. See I can point out the obvious too! Fun isn't it?


Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
Originally posted by Cyrus.H:
I'm not bashing the game or insulting people, I'm telling the truth.

Yes you are bashing the game and it's not the truth you are telling but rather a personal opinion. There's a difference. I know a lot of egotistical people think their opinions are facts but the reality is they're not. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


That sounds just like you. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

You think? Interesting cuz I don't remember anywhere in any one of my posts where I claimed that what I was stating was a fact and not merely an opinion. Perhaps I should apologize for not spelling it out. I shouldn't have assumed everyone in here would be smart enough to know that I was intending to share an opinion and attempting to assume what I was saying was a fact.

[DeafAtheist]

Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
You obviously only ride gear shifted mountain bikes. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Actually you're pretty spot on... I do prefer to ride mountain bikes. :-P But even if backpeddaling on a bike moved you you're not going forward so I really don't get the point you were trying to make with that metaphor.


Maybe, but from initial feedback this game is so easy that most experienced gamers will more than likely find little challenge in it other than actively trying to ghost, which has become less entertaining and increasingly irritating thanks to the reduced stealth mechanics.

I dunno if one can judge how difficult the entire game is based on a few demos. According to the devs at some point you'll be up against Splinter Cells and I don't see them as standing around shooting the breeze to be taken out like fish in a barrel using M&E. It's going to take a bit more effort than that to go up against a team of them. And even with regular guards not all of them just stand around. I noticed one guard in the demo actively patrolling. Another one started to patrol but I didn't let him live long enough or stick around long enough to watch his movements. I took him out with M&E just as he moved away from his buddy. But even if much of the game is unchallenging, I still find it enjoyable because it's fun to try to play thru it a different way. Try to take out different guards with different actions. I played the hell out of the demo and would be playing now too but I'm visiting my mom for the weekend 25 miles away from my 360.

I am enjoying playing thru the game using stealth even more than I did in previous titles. I find it more challenging. I try to do it without using anything except my portable EMP. No throwable gadgets or weapons. I see the portable EMP as similar to using the OCP... except that it wipes out everything in the room and not just one light.


Please explain how this game is going to be any different. In fact you don't even have to learn the patrol routes, because the guards don't even patrol. They just stand around. What exactly does this game offer that makes it any different, stealth wise, from the previous games that changes the situation you have just used as a means to promote the changes in this title?

Like I said above, not all guards remain stationary. Some are roving. But even if the majority are stationary instead of having to figure out guard patterns you have to figure out how to get past a guard that does not move especially if you need to cross their line of sight. Try this without using gadgets, only the portable EMP. Once you set it off it takes time before you can use it again and guards DO start moving. Making your next move more challenging.

In earlier titles on the hardest level you had to get thru the game without using your firearms. I see Conviction as a challenge not to use anything except the portable EMP. No throwable gadgets. So without the musical sticky cam you are devoid of any way to distract a guard. This gives you a challenge on passing them without being able to distract them.


Exactly, just like how its more challenging to try and play Halo by going around and assassinating everyone by bashing the back of their head in - but that's not really how the game was designed to be fun. By more challenging I think you mean "the player is less well equipped with game mechanics" to achieve a stealthrough. Pretty much how you're complaining about the action scenario in the previous games below...

I'll admit I greatly enjoy playing the demo using M&E I love to experiment by marking different enemies and using hand to hand takedowns with others. I find the challenge with it in finding alternate methods of using it with equal precision. So I do enjoy the features the game was designed around. I'm not suggesting you don't use them at all. Just don't use them all the time. Try playing thru using M&E and alternate and try ghosting as much as possible. Just because weapons are available doesn't mean you have to use them. Weapons were always available in Splinter Cell but that doesn't mean you had to use them before, so why complain about their use now? my point is simply that you can play thru Conviction with more options than ever before.

One thing that greatly amuses me about you dark siders is that you talk so much about being unseen, unheard, and unknown... getting thru the level without engaging any enemies... and then at the same time you're complaining about the inability to move bodies. Why would you need to move a body if you are ghosting? Not being able to move dead or unconscious bodies is really a small matter to me. If I need someone out of my way I can approach them using stealth and take them hostage... move them to a secure location and drop them. Moving bodies is really counterproductive. Why exert so much energy to move someone when it's much easier to force them to move to where you want them to on their own? If another guard finds you moving a lifeless body you've got to drop the body in order to use your weapon and in that time an enemy could put a bullet in your head. If you're forcing an enemy to move where you want him to go and an enemy sees you then you have a human shield and a ready weapon.

Your example with HALO isn't really the same. Splinter Cell was made to incorporate stealth as part of the tactics. This simply expands options. Your HALO example would be more like only going thru the game by knocking out every enemy using only hand to hand take downs. While it may be possible to do it that way, it's not really efficient, but using shadows and cover to avoid enemies IS. It doesn't go against the game mechanics... it's simply another way to play thru the game which is exactly what the devs intended. Why do you think they posted that recent video of someone playing thru the game without detection or engaging the enemies except with the brief tutorial in the beginning that's unavoidable?


Not true. I've regularly played the previous games in an action manner and frequently do not die in seconds. Don't confuse "trying to play through in action" with "caught unexpectedly out in the open with a guard on alert and can't shoot my way out"

And by most reports M&E makes the game far too easy when used and is primarily for newer players.

I'll give you that one. I've never played thru an SC game that way. Yeah I've played thru killing every enemy I encountered but most of them were stealthy takedowns and not shooting my way thru the game. So while it may be possible I've never been able to open fire in every area without getting killed rather quickly.

In the demo using M&E IS pretty easy to get thru if you use it right. It takes a bit of strategy to pick which enemies to M&E and which ones to take down by hand. If you mess up you could alert other guards before completing the maneuver. So it still takes a bit of planning. Instead of sitting in the shadows learning guard patrol patterns in order to sneaky by you're sitting in the shadows figuring out how to best clear out the room while avoiding detection. Once you've got a plan of action that works it's simple. Same with stealth play in earlier titles. Once you figured out the guard movement you could easily slip past them.


Well that's the whole point that is being made. If this game was meant to be played through in stealth fashion then there would have been DEVELOPMENTS in that department of the game. But there were ZERO.

You're kidding right? Are there not shadows you can hide in in order to observe enemies without being seen? How many action games have shadows you can hide in where an enemy walks right past you inches away without seeing you there? I dare you to get thru even 1 level of an action game without engaging any enemies. It can't realistically be done cuz it's not meant to be a stealth game but with Splinter Cell you can do that. That tells me stealth is a large part of the game mechanics. What got taken out of the game is relatively minor. You dark siders are pretty much crying over spilled milk.


I'll disagree here. I think that just increasing Sam's combat response times and accuracy would have been enough. The way we have it now, this game looks simple.

It's no more simple to plan out M&E and takedown strategies in Conviction than it is to plan out stealth maneuvers in previous titles. Both games take a bit of studying the layout to figure out the best strategy. Avoiding the enemy in previous titles was no difficult feat. Just time consuming and took a bit of trial and error attempts to get thru. Conviction with M&E is the same way. You can only take down at most 3 guards with M&E then you have to do a hand to hand takedown in order to be able to M&E 3 more. If you've got a room with 6 or more guards in there doing this without drawing attention to yourself that causes you to be hit with return fire is a bit of a challenge.

We'll see, but I really don't. Many gamers have complained that realistic mode is already far too easy and stealth gamers will find this game far too easy to actively pursue multiple hours in, especially seeing as how the multiplayer modes all primarily focus on killing without 1 single objective based stealth orientated mode.[/QUOTE]

I beg to differ. I've played thru the demo multiple times in multiple ways. Stealth players playing strictly in a stealth fashion will not find it easy. It's more challenging to play thru it using stealth tactics and avoiding engagements than it is to use M&E. The fact that you have the option to do either or both is where the replay value comes in. Just with the demo alone I've spent nearly an entire day replaying it just to try something different. I rarely do that with any game... especially a demo because for me once You've played a demo usually it gets boring cuz there's no more levels to play so I just use it as an idea of what to expect from the full title when it becomes available. So I rarely play demos more than a couple times at most... this one I lost count how many times I've played it. For me for it being a demo that's remarkable.

[Andre202]

Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
I dunno if one can judge how difficult the entire game is based on a few demos. According to the devs at some point you'll be up against Splinter Cells and I don't see them as standing around shooting the breeze to be taken out like fish in a barrel using M&E. It's going to take a bit more effort than that to go up against a team of them. And even with regular guards not all of them just stand around. I noticed one guard in the demo actively patrolling. Another one started to patrol but I didn't let him live long enough or stick around long enough to watch his movements. I took him out with M&E just as he moved away from his buddy. But even if much of the game is unchallenging, I still find it enjoyable because it's fun to try to play thru it a different way. Try to take out different guards with different actions. I played the hell out of the demo and would be playing now too but I'm visiting my mom for the weekend 25 miles away from my 360.

I am enjoying playing thru the game using stealth even more than I did in previous titles. I find it more challenging. I try to do it without using anything except my portable EMP. No throwable gadgets or weapons. I see the portable EMP as similar to using the OCP... except that it wipes out everything in the room and not just one light. I know what you mean. Though in previous games you had alot of ways to take a person down too. But there wasn't alot of other animations but you could add some animations. I have played last time SCCT and I know how difficult it is to ghost the level. Perhaps shooting them out is easier. Knowing how the guards patrol doesn't mean it will get easier. The guards are always on another position though they use always the same way to patrol but they are moving and actually it was very difficult to ghost the levels without saving.

I could decide if I use any gadgets or not and I had always the freedom to use Sam abilities to have alot of interactions. The game was linear but that doesn't if you played through the game one time that doesn't mean it will work the second time. In some situations I could be very sure what guards will do but there also situations where you don't expect specific reactions of the guards. In Splinter Cell Conviction it looks like the most are standing around then patrolling. When you have earned M&E you only have to be sure that the marked guys are in your line of sight and that the distance isn't to far. I was surprised when I first saw the M&E used while you are on ledges. You don't have to use this features, I know.

The EMP would be more noticeable for guards then the OCP (where I find it is redicolous that the updated Five Seven haven't got it). The OCP takes down only a single electrical edvice while a EMP takes out electrical devices in a whole area. If you use the OCP the guard could think that the light is broken while when alot of lights are truning off, it triggers much more attention from the guards.


Like I said above, not all guards remain stationary. Some are roving. But even if the majority are stationary instead of having to figure out guard patterns you have to figure out how to get past a guard that does not move especially if you need to cross their line of sight. Try this without using gadgets, only the portable EMP. Once you set it off it takes time before you can use it again and guards DO start moving. Making your next move more challenging.

In earlier titles on the hardest level you had to get thru the game without using your firearms. I see Conviction as a challenge not to use anything except the portable EMP. No throwable gadgets. So without the musical sticky cam you are devoid of any way to distract a guard. This gives you a challenge on passing them without being able to distract them. See above. And one question. If a game offers you two ways to go through a level (an easy one and a difficult one) which way would you use? I think the most would use the easy one. Without a rating people won't see the use to ghost the level. Making the level yourself difficult. For which reason? In end you won't be rewarded for ghosting through the level and people liked when in the rating there were only "0" in the list and at the end 100%. They felt that they achieved something! Now how will the game reward you when you ghost the game.


I'll admit I greatly enjoy playing the demo using M&E I love to experiment by marking different enemies and using hand to hand takedowns with others. I find the challenge with it in finding alternate methods of using it with equal precision. So I do enjoy the features the game was designed around. I'm not suggesting you don't use them at all. Just don't use them all the time. Try playing thru using M&E and alternate and try ghosting as much as possible. Just because weapons are available doesn't mean you have to use them. Weapons were always available in Splinter Cell but that doesn't mean you had to use them before, so why complain about their use now? my point is simply that you can play thru Conviction with more options than ever before.

One thing that greatly amuses me about you dark siders is that you talk so much about being unseen, unheard, and unknown... getting thru the level without engaging any enemies... and then at the same time you're complaining about the inability to move bodies. Why would you need to move a body if you are ghosting? Not being able to move dead or unconscious bodies is really a small matter to me. If I need someone out of my way I can approach them using stealth and take them hostage... move them to a secure location and drop them. Moving bodies is really counterproductive. Why exert so much energy to move someone when it's much easier to force them to move to where you want them to on their own? If another guard finds you moving a lifeless body you've got to drop the body in order to use your weapon and in that time an enemy could put a bullet in your head. If you're forcing an enemy to move where you want him to go and an enemy sees you then you have a human shield and a ready weapon.

Your example with HALO isn't really the same. Splinter Cell was made to incorporate stealth as part of the tactics. This simply expands options. Your HALO example would be more like only going thru the game by knocking out every enemy using only hand to hand take downs. While it may be possible to do it that way, it's not really efficient, but using shadows and cover to avoid enemies IS. It doesn't go against the game mechanics... it's simply another way to play thru the game which is exactly what the devs intended. Why do you think they posted that recent video of someone playing thru the game without detection or engaging the enemies except with the brief tutorial in the beginning that's unavoidable? So you think the most darksiders play the game only one way? Of course all of them want to be able to ghost the game but that doesn't mean they want to play this game everytime this way. Sometimes you have to improvise and I think it is ridicolous when people will load their last checkpoint because they knocked a guard in a well-lit area. In previous games you had alot of interactions but linear level. Now you have the opposite. I don't think this makes Conviction better because they improved what was an "issue" in previous games but then remove what was VERY GOOD in the game series.

AC has a open world but the issue was it hasn't got any interactions in the world. That is why GTA is a good selling game. Open world and you have alot of interactions. You can do something in that open world and not just driving and shooting. Darksiders want to be able to use Sam's abilities and not to be limited in the gameplay because of the story. I read an interview with a developer where he said that games are now on the way to have big stories. He think this is cool as long as the Gameplay doesn't suffer because of the story. You buy the game because of the gameplay otherwise you could just buy a film.


I'll give you that one. I've never played thru an SC game that way. Yeah I've played thru killing every enemy I encountered but most of them were stealthy takedowns and not shooting my way thru the game. So while it may be possible I've never been able to open fire in every area without getting killed rather quickly.

In the demo using M&E IS pretty easy to get thru if you use it right. It takes a bit of strategy to pick which enemies to M&E and which ones to take down by hand. If you mess up you could alert other guards before completing the maneuver. So it still takes a bit of planning. Instead of sitting in the shadows learning guard patrol patterns in order to sneaky by you're sitting in the shadows figuring out how to best clear out the room while avoiding detection. Once you've got a plan of action that works it's simple. Same with stealth play in earlier titles. Once you figured out the guard movement you could easily slip past them.
If I go through the previous games and knock them all of then, yes I agree that it is easy to come throw the level. But I have still situations where I just fail and as I said above it is very difficult when you ghost the level.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Well that's the whole point that is being made. If this game was meant to be played through in stealth fashion then there would have been DEVELOPMENTS in that department of the game. But there were ZERO.

You're kidding right? Are there not shadows you can hide in in order to observe enemies without being seen? How many action games have shadows you can hide in where an enemy walks right past you inches away without seeing you there? I dare you to get thru even 1 level of an action game without engaging any enemies. It can't realistically be done cuz it's not meant to be a stealth game but with Splinter Cell you can do that. That tells me stealth is a large part of the game mechanics. What got taken out of the game is relatively minor. You dark siders are pretty much crying over spilled milk. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
With Developments I think he means Improvements on the Stealth aspect of the game. You said you can still hide in this game. Now you were able to do so in previous games too. But now it is even ON/OFF Stealth then having grey areas, having suspicious guards not always poping up a ghost when you haven't got the B&W screen anymore.


It's no more simple to plan out M&E and takedown strategies in Conviction than it is to plan out stealth maneuvers in previous titles. Both games take a bit of studying the layout to figure out the best strategy. Avoiding the enemy in previous titles was no difficult feat. Just time consuming and took a bit of trial and error attempts to get thru. Conviction with M&E is the same way. You can only take down at most 3 guards with M&E then you have to do a hand to hand takedown in order to be able to M&E 3 more. If you've got a room with 6 or more guards in there doing this without drawing attention to yourself that causes you to be hit with return fire is a bit of a challenge.
Take your example with the 6 guards. Imagine you have such a level in SCCT where you have 6 guards in a room. Now is it easy to take them down one by one or with M&E?


I beg to differ. I've played thru the demo multiple times in multiple ways. Stealth players playing strictly in a stealth fashion will not find it easy. It's more challenging to play thru it using stealth tactics and avoiding engagements than it is to use M&E. The fact that you have the option to do either or both is where the replay value comes in. Just with the demo alone I've spent nearly an entire day replaying it just to try something different. I rarely do that with any game... especially a demo because for me once You've played a demo usually it gets boring cuz there's no more levels to play so I just use it as an idea of what to expect from the full title when it becomes available. So I rarely play demos more than a couple times at most... this one I lost count how many times I've played it. For me for it being a demo that's remarkable.
I actually played all SCs together more then 100 hundred times. Though it was always the same levels still I had alot of suspense situations and alot unteractions. So I had alot of options how to kill a Single Guard. The whole sticky family, the whole attachements, his takedowns and what you could do afterwards, carrying bodies wasn't just carrying bodies for me. There were situations where I laughed that I was able to do such things. Drop the body into a pool, water etc. Alot of things.

[CoastalGirl]

Originally posted by Cyrus.H:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
I don't think anyone thinks that there isn't stealth in SCC. I see less emphasis on it, though, and what is there has been simplified (not really an opinion; the CD said they wanted to make it more binary). Does that make the game bad? Not at all. Do I think it'd be better with more stealth? Absolutely. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I thought that the development team wanted Conviction to be less binary? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>In some ways it is, I think, like the basic gameplay (regardless of depth [or how good/not good a lack of it is], they have made it easier, IMO, to play a variety of ways).


As in, instead of being hidden in 83% shadow and exposed in 17% light, they wanted a system where you were either hidden or exposed with no level in between.

This sounds good in theory, but it just doesn't work in Conviction because of the ******ed black-and-white desaturation visual effect. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif I can't really fault them for the binary meter because many other L&S games are that way... However, their old system had so much more depth, I don't understand ditching it for something basic (accessibility isn't really an excuse; with the proper level/lighting design, they could make the obvious path as easy as it is now, but still offer more challenging routes for old-school stealth players).

[ClingingMars]

Originally posted by Xx_Redex_xX:
I would just out of the fact your imposing a challenge on an otherwise easy game dare I say it yes easy. (assuming demo is accurate representation.)

Which it won't be.

[ClingingMars]

Originally posted by Cyrus.H:I'm not buying Conviction.

I have already decided to spend the money and time on more worthwhile activities, such as having my finger nails ripped out or pouring bleach into my eyes. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

Then WHY in God's name are you wasting your time here?

[CoastalGirl]

ClingingMars, please use the edit function instead of double posting, and altair2nd, please don't just quote someone to repeat what they said. It's considered spamming.

[ClingingMars]

Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:

That's like saying "It's harder to cycle your bike by pedalling backwards, but when you do do it, it's more satisfying"

Clearly not the case. Stealth in this game would be more satisfying if the challenges were built around it and if the game's design was orientated around intricate and fun ways of accomplishing it - not trying to make it fit in with dodgy, simplified mechanics and AI designed to be M&E-ed.

First of all your metaphor doesn't work because pedaling a bike backwards won't get you anywhere. You just pedal in place and lose your balance because you're not moving.

Conviction was made with the attempt at creating a game that incorporated both stealth and action and after playing thru the demo multiple times I feel they've succeeded in it. I have a few negative issues with the game but ultimately I think the changes are just what the series needed to move forward and actually improve replay value. I've never played a demo so much in my life and I can only imagine how much I'm going to be playing the full game next month.

Playing thru earlier titles using stealth and not engaging any enemies was time consuming but ultimately quite easy to do. It was just a matter of studying guard movements and a few trial and error attempts. Once you've mastered it you could zoom thru the whole game effortlessly.

With Conviction we've basically lost the ability to move bodies, whistle, throw environmental items to distract guards, and do the split jump. I admit these things are a loss, but I don't mind so much losing the ability to move bodies. I do miss the split jump, whistling, and throwing environmental objects tho. But I can deal with their loss. It makes the game more challenging from a stealth perspective without them because you have to figure out how to get around an enemy without being able to distract them from their post.

With the added ability to M&E the game just got a heck of a lot more fun because you can play thru with stealth or you can play thru as an action shooter or a combination of both in ways you couldn't ever do before. If you tried to utilize action in the previous titles and shoot your way out you'd find yourself dead in seconds because the game wasn't meant to be played that way. But this game it's made to be played both ways and I think that's a major improvement on the franchise. Some things had to be unfortunately given up for this to be done but I think it's a move in the right direction. It gave the single player campaign and I assume the the multiplayer campaign replay value that the game never had before. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This, so much this.

[sumoaltus]

Originally posted by DeafAtheist:

First of all your metaphor doesn't work because pedaling a bike backwards won't get you anywhere. You just pedal in place and lose your balance because you're not moving.

Conviction was made with the attempt at creating a game that incorporated both stealth and action and after playing thru the demo multiple times I feel they've succeeded in it. I have a few negative issues with the game but ultimately I think the changes are just what the series needed to move forward and actually improve replay value. I've never played a demo so much in my life and I can only imagine how much I'm going to be playing the full game next month.

Playing thru earlier titles using stealth and not engaging any enemies was time consuming but ultimately quite easy to do. It was just a matter of studying guard movements and a few trial and error attempts. Once you've mastered it you could zoom thru the whole game effortlessly.

With Conviction we've basically lost the ability to move bodies, whistle, throw environmental items to distract guards, and do the split jump. I admit these things are a loss, but I don't mind so much losing the ability to move bodies. I do miss the split jump, whistling, and throwing environmental objects tho. But I can deal with their loss. It makes the game more challenging from a stealth perspective without them because you have to figure out how to get around an enemy without being able to distract them from their post.

With the added ability to M&E the game just got a heck of a lot more fun because you can play thru with stealth or you can play thru as an action shooter or a combination of both in ways you couldn't ever do before. If you tried to utilize action in the previous titles and shoot your way out you'd find yourself dead in seconds because the game wasn't meant to be played that way. But this game it's made to be played both ways and I think that's a major improvement on the franchise. Some things had to be unfortunately given up for this to be done but I think it's a move in the right direction. It gave the single player campaign and I assume the the multiplayer campaign replay value that the game never had before.

I've said this so many times. I'm with you my man.

[newhenpal]

I agree.

Ghosting is dumb (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sJqJ7dH2BVk).

[Aveelo]

Originally posted by DeafAtheist:

First of all your metaphor doesn't work because pedaling a bike backwards won't get you anywhere. You just pedal in place and lose your balance because you're not moving.

Conviction was made with the attempt at creating a game that incorporated both stealth and action and after playing thru the demo multiple times I feel they've succeeded in it. I have a few negative issues with the game but ultimately I think the changes are just what the series needed to move forward and actually improve replay value. I've never played a demo so much in my life and I can only imagine how much I'm going to be playing the full game next month.

Playing thru earlier titles using stealth and not engaging any enemies was time consuming but ultimately quite easy to do. It was just a matter of studying guard movements and a few trial and error attempts. Once you've mastered it you could zoom thru the whole game effortlessly.

With Conviction we've basically lost the ability to move bodies, whistle, throw environmental items to distract guards, and do the split jump. I admit these things are a loss, but I don't mind so much losing the ability to move bodies. I do miss the split jump, whistling, and throwing environmental objects tho. But I can deal with their loss. It makes the game more challenging from a stealth perspective without them because you have to figure out how to get around an enemy without being able to distract them from their post.

With the added ability to M&E the game just got a heck of a lot more fun because you can play thru with stealth or you can play thru as an action shooter or a combination of both in ways you couldn't ever do before. If you tried to utilize action in the previous titles and shoot your way out you'd find yourself dead in seconds because the game wasn't meant to be played that way. But this game it's made to be played both ways and I think that's a major improvement on the franchise. Some things had to be unfortunately given up for this to be done but I think it's a move in the right direction. It gave the single player campaign and I assume the the multiplayer campaign replay value that the game never had before.

I agree

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
Actually you're pretty spot on... I do prefer to ride mountain bikes. :-P But even if backpeddaling on a bike moved you you're not going forward so I really don't get the point you were trying to make with that metaphor.

The metaphor is describing that when something is designed for a specific purpose that it can forcibly be used for another purpose that it was not specifically designed, but that doesn't meant that it's going to work as well.


I dunno if one can judge how difficult the entire game is based on a few demos. According to the devs at some point you'll be up against Splinter Cells and I don't see them as standing around shooting the breeze to be taken out like fish in a barrel using M&E. It's going to take a bit more effort than that to go up against a team of them. And even with regular guards not all of them just stand around. I noticed one guard in the demo actively patrolling. Another one started to patrol but I didn't let him live long enough or stick around long enough to watch his movements. I took him out with M&E just as he moved away from his buddy. But even if much of the game is unchallenging, I still find it enjoyable because it's fun to try to play thru it a different way. Try to take out different guards with different actions. I played the hell out of the demo and would be playing now too but I'm visiting my mom for the weekend 25 miles away from my 360.

Yes and I do not doubt that there are a load of different ways to play through this demo by varying the methods of who you shoot first, how you use M&E and so on, but when it comes to the stealth aspect of this game, it's very limiting and therein lies the lack of replay value. The whole gameplay loop is PEV, so the game has to allow you space and time to PREPARE, meaning that most of the guards are not actively patrolling in the level trying to detect an intruder, they are standing around in situations that are designed to allow the player to formulate a plan to kill them all.


I am enjoying playing thru the game using stealth even more than I did in previous titles. I find it more challenging. I try to do it without using anything except my portable EMP. No throwable gadgets or weapons. I see the portable EMP as similar to using the OCP... except that it wipes out everything in the room and not just one light.

That's a very big difference. It's a big get out of jail free card and has been advertised as such.

But I'm glad to hear you're preferring the stealth with less options and this makes you find it more challenging, but personally, I'd much prefer the game to have stealth challenge designed into it, with appropriate tools and situational scenarios to beat that stealth challenge, rather than self imposing a challenge not directly created in the game for that type of gameplay.

You can try to drive around the track in reverse to win a race in Forza motorsport and it will probably be much more challenging than any other driving game you've played! It might even be fun, but it certainly wouldn't be as entertaining as a game that has specifically developed for that purpose.


Like I said above, not all guards remain stationary. Some are roving. But even if the majority are stationary instead of having to figure out guard patterns you have to figure out how to get past a guard that does not move especially if you need to cross their line of sight. Try this without using gadgets, only the portable EMP. Once you set it off it takes time before you can use it again and guards DO start moving. Making your next move more challenging.

I still can't understand how this game is going to be any different in the sense of the criticism you placed on the previous games. Once you know the solution to the puzzle, it's a breeze. This game does nothing to remedy that and makes the puzzle increasingly simple to solve.


In earlier titles on the hardest level you had to get thru the game without using your firearms. I see Conviction as a challenge not to use anything except the portable EMP. No throwable gadgets. So without the musical sticky cam you are devoid of any way to distract a guard. This gives you a challenge on passing them without being able to distract them.

Sorry, but as a stealth gamer, if you were trying to sell a gaming experience to me on that merit alone, I would tell you your game is going to suck...hard.


I'll admit I greatly enjoy playing the demo using M&E I love to experiment by marking different enemies and using hand to hand takedowns with others. I find the challenge with it in finding alternate methods of using it with equal precision. So I do enjoy the features the game was designed around. I'm not suggesting you don't use them at all. Just don't use them all the time. Try playing thru using M&E and alternate and try ghosting as much as possible.

I intend to for a little, but when I can generally pull of the headshots myself, I don't really need the game to do it for me. But that's not the issue here. I have no doubt that the functions this game was designed for work well, it's just that the area it's creeping into is already saturated.


Just because weapons are available doesn't mean you have to use them. Weapons were always available in Splinter Cell but that doesn't mean you had to use them before, so why complain about their use now? my point is simply that you can play thru Conviction with more options than ever before.

I'd find this a valid addition if the options you had before didn't have a hatchet taken to them. As far as stealth gaming is concerned, the sacrifice for the inclusion of these options isn't worth it.


One thing that greatly amuses me about you dark siders is that you talk so much about being unseen, unheard, and unknown... getting thru the level without engaging any enemies... and then at the same time you're complaining about the inability to move bodies. Why would you need to move a body if you are ghosting? Not being able to move dead or unconscious bodies is really a small matter to me.

But ghosting is one side of stealth gaming and what stealth gamers aim for, but when people play through not wanting to reload then mistakes need to be covered and your tracks hidden. And I agree now also that hiding bodies is a small matter in this game because the enemies show no signs of tracking you down and for the most part stay stationary, so any guards you kill are most likely not going to be found by any of the other guards in the level, because they won't be moving.


If I need someone out of my way I can approach them using stealth and take them hostage... move them to a secure location and drop them. Moving bodies is really counterproductive. Why exert so much energy to move someone when it's much easier to force them to move to where you want them to on their own?

Are you actually seriously making this argument and believing in it at the same time?

What if I can't get to a guard to grab him? What if I bump into him around a corner and am forced to kill him? What if I had to shoot him from distance? All of these situations end up with a dead body in the open that is now unmovable.


If another guard finds you moving a lifeless body you've got to drop the body in order to use your weapon and in that time an enemy could put a bullet in your head.

That's not an issue, you could always do this in previous games and with the reaction time of guards in this game, you'd have time to smoke a cigarette before you took your pistol out.


If you're forcing an enemy to move where you want him to go and an enemy sees you then you have a human shield and a ready weapon.

Your whole argument focusses around the fact that you've managed to grab a guard and have planned ahead that you're going to move him out of the way. That's a very small part of stealth aspects and generally not how the cookie crumbles in any game I've played.


Your example with HALO isn't really the same. Splinter Cell was made to incorporate stealth as part of the tactics. This simply expands options.

Just like how insta killing people with a blow to the back of the head is another option in Halo.


Your HALO example would be more like only going thru the game by knocking out every enemy using only hand to hand take downs.

No, that's a direct physical comparison of what I'm talking about. Gameplay wise it's a method of achieving your goals with an alternative tool the developers have included in the game to assist you, but which was never designed to primarily being the main method of play.


While it may be possible to do it that way, it's not really efficient, but using shadows and cover to avoid enemies IS. It doesn't go against the game mechanics... it's simply another way to play thru the game which is exactly what the devs intended. Why do you think they posted that recent video of someone playing thru the game without detection or engaging the enemies except with the brief tutorial in the beginning that's unavoidable?

In response to the increased pressure on here for it and when we saw it, it was pleasant, but not as pleasant or interesting as it could have been if the stealth area of the game had seen some love in the 4-5 years development.


In the demo using M&E IS pretty easy to get thru if you use it right. It takes a bit of strategy to pick which enemies to M&E and which ones to take down by hand. If you mess up you could alert other guards before completing the maneuver. So it still takes a bit of planning.

If you say so, but it all seems very, very simple to me. In every instance in the demo there are 2-3 guys together and 1 guy segregated from the group. It's a no brainer how it goes down, to me personally, but I'm an avid fan of tactical gaming and have been for many years now.


Instead of sitting in the shadows learning guard patrol patterns in order to sneaky by you're sitting in the shadows figuring out how to best clear out the room while avoiding detection.

LOL - you've hit the nail on the head!



You're kidding right? Are there not shadows you can hide in in order to observe enemies without being seen? How many action games have shadows you can hide in where an enemy walks right past you inches away without seeing you there? I dare you to get thru even 1 level of an action game without engaging any enemies. It can't realistically be done cuz it's not meant to be a stealth game but with Splinter Cell you can do that. That tells me stealth is a large part of the game mechanics. What got taken out of the game is relatively minor. You dark siders are pretty much crying over spilled milk.

No, you're misunderstanding. There is stealth mechanics in the game, but they are exactly the same stealth mechanics that were seen in Thief: The Dark Project, back in 1998, except they've actually been simplified, with much softer detection mechanics/methods and less for the player options.

That's 12 years ago and the closest thing this game has brought to developing a stealth mechanic is adding a ghost to the location where you were just spotted, which programs all the AI to forget about detecting you and specifically focus all their attention on that area.


It's no more simple to plan out M&E and takedown strategies in Conviction than it is to plan out stealth maneuvers in previous titles. Both games take a bit of studying the layout to figure out the best strategy. Avoiding the enemy in previous titles was no difficult feat. Just time consuming and took a bit of trial and error attempts to get thru. Conviction with M&E is the same way. You can only take down at most 3 guards with M&E then you have to do a hand to hand takedown in order to be able to M&E 3 more. If you've got a room with 6 or more guards in there doing this without drawing attention to yourself that causes you to be hit with return fire is a bit of a challenge.

Yes, the clear shift is away from sneaking and towards killing. That much is obvious, but I am adamant that killing guards in this game is far less of a challenge (and for me personally) far less interesting than sneaking is.


I beg to differ. I've played thru the demo multiple times in multiple ways. Stealth players playing strictly in a stealth fashion will not find it easy. It's more challenging to play thru it using stealth tactics and avoiding engagements than it is to use M&E. The fact that you have the option to do either or both is where the replay value comes in. Just with the demo alone I've spent nearly an entire day replaying it just to try something different. I rarely do that with any game... especially a demo because for me once You've played a demo usually it gets boring cuz there's no more levels to play so I just use it as an idea of what to expect from the full title when it becomes available. So I rarely play demos more than a couple times at most... this one I lost count how many times I've played it. For me for it being a demo that's remarkable.

Well I'm glad you like it, but although I haven't had a chance to play it, it looks extremely easy to me personally and the feedback from most of the gamers I've met through Splinter Cell over the years is unanimously in agreement after their interaction with it.

Generally consensus from them is that sneaking is lame, movement/control and shooting is dodgy and the game is easy.

[sumoaltus]

Phew, talk about breaking down a post.

Fox you take posting to a whole new level, my friend. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

[Aveelo]

Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
Generally consensus from them is that sneaking is lame, movement/control and shooting is dodgy and the game is easy.

You Only Play The Demo You Need Wait Full Game To Yell To Us Game Is Easy

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Originally posted by sumoaltus:
Phew, talk about breaking down a post.

Fox you take posting to a whole new level, my friend. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/metal.gif

LOL

I hope that's a compliment http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And I don't mind doing it with DeafAtheist. He's intelligent, civil and a good debater!

Exactly what this forum needs and the kind of person I like having on the opposite side of an argument. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

[sumoaltus]

It is haha.

I've only broken a down a post like that once or twice, and it was exhausting. Hats off.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

Originally posted by Aveelo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
Generally consensus from them is that sneaking is lame, movement/control and shooting is dodgy and the game is easy.

You Only Play The Demo You Need Wait Full Game To Yell To Us Game Is Easy </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I said Aveelo, I haven't played the demo, so I can't comment personally (yet), but the general consensus from my friends that I've talked to is that it was pretty easy on Realistic.

The game certainly looks easy any time I've seen it played, but as you supporters of the game always say

"Wait until you play before you comment!"

[sumoaltus]

Well here's the thing, difficulty depends on your approach fox.

The more gadgets and takedowns you use, the easier the game is. The less, the harder. From my experience and the general consensus itself, that's what I've ascertained.

But you honestly need to play it yourself to truly comment on your own behalf.

[oO_ShadowFox_Oo]

That's what alot of peeps on here said to the sceptics before the demo and it's what alot of people are saying after it.

But I like your line of reasoning. The less tools you use the harder the game gets.

I mean, imagine how challenging the game would be if you didn't use the walking feature! You'd have a hard time getting through it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

[sumoaltus]

haha

[Yabab_2]

Originally posted by Hypnosos:
I enjoy ghosting, but I try to play Splinter Cell games in all different ways. Ghosting, knocking everyone out without being detected, killing everyone, run-n-gun with mark n' execute. Everything really. It's all good fun.

Interesting fact is that you actually stop moving when you shoot with the Mark & Execute.

[DeafAtheist]

Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
The metaphor is describing that when something is designed for a specific purpose that it can forcibly be used for another purpose that it was not specifically designed, but that doesn't meant that it's going to work as well.

I never suggested you do anything that goes against the game's design. I simply suggested that you can choose to utilize different methods of play. Calling on your bike riding metaphor I'd say it's more like deciding which of your 21 gears to use on your bike. Maybe you want to try to hit that steep hill on a low gear rather than upshifting to make the climb easier cuz it would give you a more strenuous workout. Just because you have 21 gears doesn't mean they all need to be used. They're just there to use at your choice and make your ride easier. Just like you say you'd like the option to hide bodies but sometimes might want to ghost and avoid engaging enemies at all. That's no different than deciding to go thru a game without using gadgets or weapons. I DOES make the game fun because you're challenging yourself the same way you are challenging yourself by ghosting in earlier titles without using weapons or gadgets. So how is it less fun to restrict yourself in Conviction than it is in previous titles?


Yes and I do not doubt that there are a load of different ways to play through this demo by varying the methods of who you shoot first, how you use M&E and so on, but when it comes to the stealth aspect of this game, it's very limiting and therein lies the lack of replay value. The whole gameplay loop is PEV, so the game has to allow you space and time to PREPARE, meaning that most of the guards are not actively patrolling in the level trying to detect an intruder, they are standing around in situations that are designed to allow the player to formulate a plan to kill them all.

Guards standing around aren't necessarily easier to get past using stealth than roving guards are. Yes it might be easier to kill groups of guards using M&E that aren't moving, but sneaking past a guard that doesn't move is a challenge especially with limited ways to distract them. It just requires a different strategy to sneak past stationary guards than roving guards. But to assume that is how most of the guards are in EVERY mission based on the demo and the few videos we've seen is an assumption that may not necessarily be true.


That's a very big difference. It's a big get out of jail free card and has been advertised as such.

But I'm glad to hear you're preferring the stealth with less options and this makes you find it more challenging, but personally, I'd much prefer the game to have stealth challenge designed into it, with appropriate tools and situational scenarios to beat that stealth challenge, rather than self imposing a challenge not directly created in the game for that type of gameplay.

You can try to drive around the track in reverse to win a race in Forza motorsport and it will probably be much more challenging than any other driving game you've played! It might even be fun, but it certainly wouldn't be as entertaining as a game that has specifically developed for that purpose.

No, it's not a big get out of jail free card. The effects of the portable EMP don't last long and they take awhile to recharge. Once you've used the portable EMP you've raised the guards' suspicions and they start moving around. This makes it more challenging to get to another cover point.

You have 2 weapons and several launchable gadgets in previous Splinter Cell titles... would you consider forgoing their use to be "self-imposing restrictions"? Just because something is built into a game... any game doesn't mean you have to use everything offered. People tend to have favorite weapons or gadgets they like to use more than other or instead of others. They simply create options. M&E and the gadgets in Conviction are no different. You're not going against the game mechanics by choosing not to use all the features and gadgets offered, you're simply utilizing the option not to use them if you so desire.

That's what I like about Conviction. I'm not saying you darksiders if you don't like the action play don't use it. I'm saying enjoy the game for what it is... have fun playing thru with M&E. Have fun trying to take down everyone only by hand, or have fun trying to get thru the mission by not engaging anyone or by being detected or using gadgets. My point is there are a lot of options and that's what makes Conviction fun to play.


I still can't understand how this game is going to be any different in the sense of the criticism you placed on the previous games. Once you know the solution to the puzzle, it's a breeze. This game does nothing to remedy that and makes the puzzle increasingly simple to solve.

No it doesn't. The point I'm making is that it gives you multiple methods to solve the puzzle. Some of these methods might be easy, but some will be more challenging.


Sorry, but as a stealth gamer, if you were trying to sell a gaming experience to me on that merit alone, I would tell you your game is going to suck...hard.

Why?


I intend to for a little, but when I can generally pull of the headshots myself, I don't really need the game to do it for me. But that's not the issue here. I have no doubt that the functions this game was designed for work well, it's just that the area it's creeping into is already saturated.

I can pull of headshots myself too. I've even done so in the Conviction demo when I had no M&E's to use, but you can't do it as quickly as an M&E. Plus using M&E you can focus your attention on other things while the M&E is being carried out, like you can mark, execute, quickly mark a couple other guards, drop down on another one, and execute the new marks all in one fluid motion that really can't be done without the M&E feature. The fun is in planning the strategy out to do that and replaying it to try it another way.

I've never experienced anything like it. The closest I've come to is with the batarang targeting in Arkham Asylum. The difference with that was it was regenerating. The M&E in Conviction requires a hand to hand takedown to get the ability back again.


I'd find this a valid addition if the options you had before didn't have a hatchet taken to them. As far as stealth gaming is concerned, the sacrifice for the inclusion of these options isn't worth it.

While I agree with you that the things that were taken out of the game are a loss, I disagree that they aren't worth losing. It's a different game to be sure but it's a fun game and I see it as an improvement with mild sacrifices. I know you and other darksiders disagree tho.


But ghosting is one side of stealth gaming and what stealth gamers aim for, but when people play through not wanting to reload then mistakes need to be covered and your tracks hidden. And I agree now also that hiding bodies is a small matter in this game because the enemies show no signs of tracking you down and for the most part stay stationary, so any guards you kill are most likely not going to be found by any of the other guards in the level, because they won't be moving.

That's speculation. We don't know that the majority of the guards remain stationary. It's an assumption that's based on a demo and a few videos. We've not really seen a real playthru video of another level where guard movement or lack thereof was observed prior to Sam moving, we've mostly just seen quick playthrus or edited scenes from various missions. But we've been told that we'll encounter roving Splinter Cells equipped with NV/TV who will hunt you down wherever you hide. Stealth play on those missions I imagine will be extremely challenging.


What if I can't get to a guard to grab him? What if I bump into him around a corner and am forced to kill him? What if I had to shoot him from distance? All of these situations end up with a dead body in the open that is now unmovable.

If you can't get to a guard to grab him then you figure out a way to lure him away from where he is. If you bump into a guard around a corner you can press and hold the B button immediately before he can react and even if he's facing you you will take him hostage and you can move him so killing him isn't necessary if you're close enough to take him by hand which can be enacted even from a foot or 2 away. I dunno about being forced to shoot someone from a distance tho. Would depend on whether or not that situation came up. I guess we'll see when playing thru the game.


That's not an issue, you could always do this in previous games and with the reaction time of guards in this game, you'd have time to smoke a cigarette before you took your pistol out.

True... but I was speaking from a realistic perspective. If you were a real Sam Fischer and got caught moving a body you'd be shot before you could drop it and get your weapon out to defend yourself. I know it's not real and just a video game but it's realism that video game developers strive for and gamers covet.


Your whole argument focusses around the fact that you've managed to grab a guard and have planned ahead that you're going to move him out of the way. That's a very small part of stealth aspects and generally not how the cookie crumbles in any game I've played.

That's true but like I explained above even when caught by surprise if you react quick and hold down the B button you'll take the guard hostage and can move him. But I can't really speculate on being forced to shoot someone from a distance as I don't know if we'll ever have to. With you darksiders complaining about not being able to ghost as you could in previous games I imagine this hasn't been an issue in previous games either since if you were forced to shoot someone from a distance you'd fail at ghosting.


No, that's a direct physical comparison of what I'm talking about. Gameplay wise it's a method of achieving your goals with an alternative tool the developers have included in the game to assist you, but which was never designed to primarily being the main method of play.

I don't think M&E is designed to be the main method of play either. It was the goal of the development team to make a game that could be played using stealth OR action tactics. So by choosing to get thru the game without using M&E and gadgets isn't going against the game's mechanics... it's simply choosing to utilize a different strategy of gameplay.


In response to the increased pressure on here for it and when we saw it, it was pleasant, but not as pleasant or interesting as it could have been if the stealth area of the game had seen some love in the 4-5 years development.

Perhaps that might be the reason why they posted the video here, but they had to make the game so it was possible to play it that way too so that shows that it was intended to be a stealth game as well as an action game and give players options. If they had left it as it is and left in the body moving a lot of action gamers would find that tedious. It's a big thing that turned away a lot of action gamers from the Splinter Cell franchise. My late best friend who died last year in Afghanistan couldn't get into it for that reason, but if he were alive today I know he'd love Conviction and he'd probably play thru it utilizing stealth tactics even since the tedious requirement of moving bodies has been eliminated.


If you say so, but it all seems very, very simple to me. In every instance in the demo there are 2-3 guys together and 1 guy segregated from the group. It's a no brainer how it goes down, to me personally, but I'm an avid fan of tactical gaming and have been for many years now.

Sure it's easy to figure out how to clear a room but the fun comes in finding more than one way to do it. You can find more effective methods going thru it multiple times.


That's 12 years ago and the closest thing this game has brought to developing a stealth mechanic is adding a ghost to the location where you were just spotted, which programs all the AI to forget about detecting you and specifically focus all their attention on that area.

Well the devs weren't trying to focus the game on stealth tactics they were trying to put more action in the game to garner a larger fan base but still attempt to keep stealth in the game to appeal to the current fans of the franchise.

What point are you trying to make about the LKP? What do you mean they "forget about detecting you and focus all of their attention on that area"? Of course they would. They just caught a glimpse of an intruder in that spot so the natural instinct would be to investigate it. If you see something suspicious coming from a specific part of the room you're not going to look for the suspicious thing in another part of the room.


Yes, the clear shift is away from sneaking and towards killing. That much is obvious, but I am adamant that killing guards in this game is far less of a challenge (and for me personally) far less interesting than sneaking is.

Yes, I agree killing in Conviction is far easier than sneaking. It's the opposite with earlier titles... sneaking in earlier titles was easier than killing. So it amuses me to see Darksiders complaining about Conviction when the shift from stealth oriented play to action oriented play made stealth play more challenging. I love using M&E but I also enjoy sneaking too so this game in my opinion promises to be a lot of fun.


Well I'm glad you like it, but although I haven't had a chance to play it, it looks extremely easy to me personally and the feedback from most of the gamers I've met through Splinter Cell over the years is unanimously in agreement after their interaction with it.

I'm curious, why haven't you played it yet? Are you a PC gamer? Watching a video of someone else playing the game is always going to look easy. No one records their very first attempt at a mission in a game. They record it after they've learned the level's mechanics and can execute the game with some degree of precision making it look easier than it is. Granted this demo wasn't terribly difficult but it did take a bit of trial and error. At least it did for me and I don't think I'm a crappy gamer.


Generally consensus from them is that sneaking is lame, movement/control and shooting is dodgy and the game is easy.

The control is different from what we're used to but when you play thru it a few times it's easy to get used to. The limited speeds for moving Sam kinda sucks too admittedly, but it's not horrible. It's easy to get used to it. I don't think sneaking is lame at all. Just different without being able to whistle or throw empty bottles and such. It's a different game to be sure... not what we're used to, but it's still enjoyable. The demo is fairly easy, but that doesn't mean the whole game will be.

[DeafAtheist]

Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
And I don't mind doing it with DeafAtheist. He's intelligent, civil and a good debater!

Exactly what this forum needs and the kind of person I like having on the opposite side of an argument. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

I feel the same way about you. You don't come across as whiny and bashing as some darksiders do. And you make good points even if I disagree with you.

[kalle90]

Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
Yes, the clear shift is away from sneaking and towards killing. That much is obvious, but I am adamant that killing guards in this game is far less of a challenge (and for me personally) far less interesting than sneaking is.

Yes, I agree killing in Conviction is far easier than sneaking. It's the opposite with earlier titles... sneaking in earlier titles was easier than killing. So it amuses me to see Darksiders complaining about Conviction when the shift from stealth oriented play to action oriented play made stealth play more challenging. I love using M&E but I also enjoy sneaking too so this game in my opinion promises to be a lot of fun.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This pretty much sums everything IMO. By that logic the old SCs were great challenging games for action-likers. In reality we hear stuff like "Sam moves so slow, he is so inaccurate..."

And that's just it. We seem to have less stealth options and interaction now. It's like playing games with lousy stealth like Halo, Perfect Dark or Bond games stealthy. If the enemy just stands there for hours, you can't walk past him; inability to carry bodies reduces the smoothness of stealth etc. Focus is on action and that's the way the game is really meant to be played.

Halo2 on Legendary is harder than Halo1 or Halo3 were. Most people still find Halo2 duller. "Unfair" challenge isn't fun.

Old SCs were unique, but this one doesn't seem like it. Maybe it's just because all games try to be similiar from GTAIV to Mass Effect to Uncharted

[KAIZER_SOSA]

Personally in-game satisfaction relies solely on the perspectives and opinions of the player himself/herself and if one chooses to "ghost" through the entire game then thats the experience they obviously wanted.

Calling this technique "dumb" only degrades your intelligence in respecting others not the game play experience.

[kidmosey]

When the primary objective is to kill someone, the concept of ghosting is lost.

I'll still try it, but I'm not gonna cry if there are certain spots that are impossible to slip by without conflict. I'll just drag the guards to a dark corner and snap their necks.

I hope there are light switches in the release version, though. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[CoastalGirl]

Originally posted by oO_ShadowFox_Oo:
As I said Aveelo, I haven't played the demo, so I can't comment personally (yet), but the general consensus from my friends that I've talked to is that it was pretty easy on Realistic. It is pretty easy, IMO, but not necessarily easier than what we have in the past games (with many sections, once you know the patrols, ghosting's a breeze).

The demo just wasn't designed to be ghosted (unless, of course, there are other paths that are just so well hidden that I haven't found them yet...). If they changed the unavoidable guards in the first section (even giving the guy at a the window a teeny patrol so I could slip past...), added a way to bypass the control room (a hatch on the roof?), and tweaked some stuff down below (the second and third groups; the first trio is easy to bypass), I'd be a lot happier with it.

Think about the beginning of the Money Train level - you can stay on the "ground" with the enemies, but you can also head up and avoid contact. It's still not easy because you have to come down to get through doors, and there's lighting to avoid, but the option's there, and was balanced nicely, IMO.

[Dagio12]

**ive yet to see the primary objective stating to kill someone (at least its not in the demo)**.

about ghosting - i always loved to ghost as much as possible, and it sucks you cant 100% do it in this demo.. but in many respects i understand why. i would first say this game has a lot more stealth then people previously gave the game credit for. and although you probably cant get thru the entire demo without using some gadgets or form of distraction, you can go thru it using very minimal gadgets and without being detected/spotted/ or killing people. fact of the matter is, ghosting was more achievable in other SC games bc nobody new Sam was coming, or who he was, and the way the game and AI were set up.. but now they know ( so any form of distraction is obviously gonna trigger a response regarding Sam) which, to me, is fitting of the story (and that in itself may be were some people have a problem).. but considering that, it kinda works IMO.

regarding AI placement-

i personally think its good and more diverse ( in a more realistic sense)..not all gaurds roam and patrol and move from point a to point b at the exact same rate and always seem to conveniently turn there backs for just the right amount of time so some sneaky spy can pass behind them... some are stationary, some are in groups, some are told to remain in one spot guarding an entry way.. or section, some move... If someone like Sam was faced with guards that didnt really move, i dont think he would just throw in the towel.. he has got plenty of gadgets to help him get by those situations. in previous titles, using gadgets could mean compromising you and letting people know someone is there (even tho, after a few seconds they would blow it off and go back to normal like nothing happened), but now he knows that he is already suspected to b there. so IMO, using gadgets if necessary isnt such a big deal in concealing the fact that you were never there, but using stealth to not directly be detected or spotted is what counts, and using gadgets are merely a tool to get by unseen and strike fear into the enemy.. so to speak. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

its a slight variation of stealth.. and not like the old games.. but from my perspective i guess it work.

[bigbiz]

fact of the matter is, ghosting was more achievable in other SC games bc nobody new Sam was coming, or who he was, and the way the game and AI were set up.. but now they know ( so any form of distraction is obviously gonna trigger a response regarding Sam) which, to me, is fitting of the story (and that in itself may be were some people have a problem).. but considering that, it kinda works IMO.
Exactly. When you had the OCP, it made a huge difference. Guards responded differently to you OCPing a light as opposed to shooting it out (if in range when you shot it). If they heard it, they responded as if there were an intruder. If you just used the OCP, they complained about the warranty.

[DeafAtheist]

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
If they changed the unavoidable guards in the first section (even giving the guy at a the window a teeny patrol so I could slip past...)

If you go to the door that leads to the inside of the warehouse from the outside but just open and close the door without entering then go around to the other side and climb the pipe to the window the guard will no longer be in front of the window.

Also in the Ubisoft stealth video of the demo they show Sam sneaking past the guy inside the door without taking him down by going thru the doorway to the right behind the guard.

But the guard in the CPU room and the guards in the room where you drop down thru the hole in the ceiling are more difficult to pass without at least using EMP or a musical sticky cam.

[OldSnakeFisher]

I think the problem here is that ghosting is boring, because it seems forced, using gadgets etc.

Unlike the old splinter cell where you could learn enemy patrols, and completely ghost without using gadgets. At least for me anyway.

[Aveelo]

Originally posted by OldSnakeFisher:
I think the problem here is that ghosting is boring, because it seems forced, using gadgets etc.

Unlike the old splinter cell where you could learn enemy patrols, and completely ghost without using gadgets. At least for me anyway.

Ghost In Old SC Is Boring Now Is Cool,Fun And More Challenge

[SilencedScream0]

Originally posted by Aveelo:
Ghost In Old SC Is Boring Now Is Cool,Fun And More Challenge

I've never been a fan of COMPLETE ghosting, but I did enjoy being able to take down each and -every- person silently (and non-lethally), without ever being detected or alerting anyone...and that simply can't be done...at least in the demo.

The new game IS fun, but I really don't feel like it's meant for much stealth.


I'm glad you put your sig back up, by the way. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[OldSnakeFisher]

Originally posted by Aveelo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldSnakeFisher:
I think the problem here is that ghosting is boring, because it seems forced, using gadgets etc.

Unlike the old splinter cell where you could learn enemy patrols, and completely ghost without using gadgets. At least for me anyway.

Ghost In Old SC Is Boring Now Is Cool,Fun And More Challenge </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is your oppinion, I just don't find it fun anymore in this splinter cell, I think it is more fun to kill everyone. Which is what I think ubisoft intended.

Using EMP gadgets to ghost is not really more challenging...

[Aveelo]

Originally posted by OldSnakeFisher:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aveelo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldSnakeFisher:
I think the problem here is that ghosting is boring, because it seems forced, using gadgets etc.

Unlike the old splinter cell where you could learn enemy patrols, and completely ghost without using gadgets. At least for me anyway.

Ghost In Old SC Is Boring Now Is Cool,Fun And More Challenge </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is your oppinion, I just don't find it fun anymore in this splinter cell, I think it is more fun to kill evryone. Which is what I think ubisoft intended.

Using EMP gadgets to ghost is not really more challenging... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I Dont Need Any Emp To Ghost In The Demo Learn To Play Man http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

[SilencedScream0]

Originally posted by Aveelo:
I Dont Need Any Emp To Ghost In The Demo Learn To Play Man http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Oh? And you're not killing or KOing -anyone-?
I've yet to see any video of people getting through without using any gadget...are you using the sticky cam instead?

[CoastalGirl]

Originally posted by DeafAtheist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
If they changed the unavoidable guards in the first section (even giving the guy at a the window a teeny patrol so I could slip past...) If you go to the door that leads to the inside of the warehouse from the outside but just open and close the door without entering then go around to the other side and climb the pipe to the window the guard will no longer be in front of the window.

Also in the Ubisoft stealth video of the demo they show Sam sneaking past the guy inside the door without taking him down by going thru the doorway to the right behind the guard </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I know about the bug, but on realistic, at least, I can't even get to the door without the guys outside seeing me.


But the guard in the CPU room and the guards in the room where you drop down thru the hole in the ceiling are more difficult to pass without at least using EMP or a musical sticky cam. Yeah, I haven't been able to do it without a gadget.


Originally posted by Aveelo:
Ghost In Old SC Is Boring Now Is Cool,Fun And More Challenge If you don't like ghosting that's completely fine - everyone has their own likes and dislikes. I do like ghosting, however, and, as I've said for years, they can add whatever they want and I'll be okay with it, as long as I can play the way I want, too.

Also, if it was just a question of being a bigger challenge then I wouldn't have any issue with it, but there's a difference between something being a bigger challenge, and something not being possible due to the level design.

[Aveelo]

Originally posted by SilencedScream0:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aveelo:
I Dont Need Any Emp To Ghost In The Demo Learn To Play Man http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Oh? And you're not killing or KOing -anyone-?
I've yet to see any video of people getting through without using any gadget...are you using the sticky cam instead? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No Only Need Shooting Lights

[I_am_a_SC]

On the previous games, I always did ghosting first to see if I could do it without getting detected. To me it added a bit of realism. I loved the replay of the first 3 games and certain missions on D/A but I know what to expect because I have played the games so many times. That is why I always ghost first because I don't know what to expect, very much how real life would be, I do however take my time and try and get as much info as I can from either computers or overhearing conversations.After I would beat the game, then I would go back and play it other ways. For instance on Chaos Theory, the guys who interrogated Morgenholt, died when Sam got a hold of them. I already had beaten that mission previously with 100% stealth and I remembered thinking that Sam probably would have killed them since they had no regard for innocent life so on the second play through, they died!

[OldSnakeFisher]

Originally posted by Aveelo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldSnakeFisher:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Aveelo:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by OldSnakeFisher:
I think the problem here is that ghosting is boring, because it seems forced, using gadgets etc.

Unlike the old splinter cell where you could learn enemy patrols, and completely ghost without using gadgets. At least for me anyway.

Ghost In Old SC Is Boring Now Is Cool,Fun And More Challenge </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is your oppinion, I just don't find it fun anymore in this splinter cell, I think it is more fun to kill evryone. Which is what I think ubisoft intended.

Using EMP gadgets to ghost is not really more challenging... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I Dont Need Any Emp To Ghost In The Demo Learn To Play Man http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wow...your awesome..please show me a video

0 gadgets, 0 KO, 0 kills on realistic SHOW ME!

[Kooichi-kun]

Hey guys let's not forget they had to completely overhaul the game development and start from scratch. Conviction is kinda like a new IP, while still using certain gameplay mechanics that define it as a Splinter Cell game. You can't expect it be completely "perfect" like Chaos Theory which was the third game in its series.

The developers are trying something new and making sure it works properly instead of trying to cram everything into a newly designed game.

[Aveelo]

Originally posted by Kooichi-kun:
Hey guys let's not forget they had to completely overhaul the game development and start from scratch. Conviction is kinda like a new IP, while still using certain gameplay mechanics that define it as a Splinter Cell game. You can't expect it be completely "perfect" like Chaos Theory which was the third game in its series.

The developers are trying something new and making sure it works properly instead of trying to cram everything into a newly designed game.


I Agree http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

[CoastalGirl]

Originally posted by Kooichi-kun:
Hey guys let's not forget they had to completely overhaul the game development and start from scratch. Conviction is kinda like a new IP, while still using certain gameplay mechanics that define it as a Splinter Cell game. You can't expect it be completely "perfect" like Chaos Theory which was the third game in its series.

The developers are trying something new and making sure it works properly instead of trying to cram everything into a newly designed game. I actually think the game mechanics are fine (I'd like deeper stealth, but I can work with this http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). The problem is that they just didn't give a full-stealth option (that I've seen, anyway).

Basically, what I'm looking for is for every "fork in the road" in the level to have one optional path allows me to avoid detection. It can be less obvious, and a lot harder; keep the focus on the new features - doesn't matter. Just let me sneak if I want to. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

[sumoaltus]

What's with the obsession with ghosting?

The stealth score aspect has been eliminated so ghosting is essentially not required. We now have the freedom to manipulate the guards and the situation in any way possible to succeed in our mission. I don't see what the big quandary is with that.

[SilencedScream0]

Originally posted by sumoaltus:
What's with the obsession with ghosting?

The stealth score aspect has been eliminated so ghosting is essentially not required. We now have the freedom to manipulate the guards and the situation in any way possible to succeed in our mission. I don't see what the big quandary is with that.

Some people enjoy ghosting.
I'm not one, not really. I liked silent, non-lethal takedowns of everyone on the map, without alerting anyone. Still, can't do here though.

[Kooichi-kun]

Nothing is wrong with ghosting, it's the best stealth tactic and it would make conviction much much better if you could ghost. I just hate how people are quick to criticize and hate on Conviction just because you can't do it. I'm not saying the game is perfect or the best Splinter Cell EVUR(even though I don't like the past games.). I just want people to give it a chance. One thing I'm 100% sure of is that it is a good stealth game.

[insanity76]

Originally posted by sumoaltus:
What's with the obsession with ghosting?

The stealth score aspect has been eliminated so ghosting is essentially not required.

Of course it isn't and never has been required ... It's a personal satisfaction & accomplishment moreso than getting a 100% score (and honestly there are flaws in the stealth rating regarding 100% stealth "success") .. the first 2 SC's didn't have a stealth score yet you could ghost those. It's the idea of completing the objectives without leaving a single shred of evidence of having been there, and adheres to one of Lambert's earliest lines which set the premise for the series ... "Invisibility is your best weapon, your gun should always be a last resort."

[CoastalGirl]

Originally posted by sumoaltus:
What's with the obsession with ghosting? Because I've never had more fun gaming than I have while ghosting in the SCs. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sneaking through without anyone even suspecting I'm there is rewarding, the gameplay's tense and atmospheric, and I love that it encourages thought and patience.