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Symantecus
07-03-2007, 10:17 AM
Here is an idea for a compelling D5:

At the start of the game each player is issued a drivers license with so many points (like real world).

If caught speeding, wreckless driving (if no one is killed) you get a ticket that must be paid, as well points are removed from the license.

(If someone is killed, i.e. a pedestrian or due to car accident - then the police use lethal force to stop you, but not unless you have killed someone). If caught in a lethal chase - you are arrested and the game/mission is failed and ends.

For non-lethal speeding, wreckless driving, if you can't pay the ticket or you loose all of your drivers license points your license is suspended. If caught driving on a suspended license, even BIGGER money penalties, since it is the making of money that drives the advancement of the game forward, this would certainly hinder progress.

Bribe the court (PAY-BIG-BUCKS) to get points restored to your license or remove a suspension. Big bucks you'll have to earn by risking driving on a suspended license (ouch!)

InsaneDriver06
07-03-2007, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Symantecus:
Here is an idea for a compelling D5:

At the start of the game each player is issued a drivers license with so many points (like real world).

If caught speeding, wreckless driving (if no one is killed) you get a ticket that must be paid, as well points are removed from the license.

(If someone is killed, i.e. a pedestrian or due to car accident - then the police use lethal force to stop you, but not unless you have killed someone). If caught in a lethal chase - you are arrested and the game/mission is failed and ends.

For non-lethal speeding, wreckless driving, if you can't pay the ticket or you loose all of your drivers license points your license is suspended. If caught driving on a suspended license, even BIGGER money penalties, since it is the making of money that drives the advancement of the game forward, this would certainly hinder progress.

Bribe the court (PAY-BIG-BUCKS) to get points restored to your license or remove a suspension. Big bucks you'll have to earn by risking driving on a suspended license (ouch!)

It's definitely interesting, but maybe that's a bit too realistic? Rather than spending time behind bars or without a license, maybe they could offer driving penalties so you can continue to drive and have fun in the game. A driving penalty could be going undercover on a pursuit mission after some crooks to remove your record, to keep the focus on driving. Or maybe racing a few laps for zero money prizes if you're a race driver who was caught driving your formula 1 on public streets (Driven).

Symantecus
07-03-2007, 05:18 PM
No, you will have to drive, with or without a license, but if you lose it, it just becomes more risky and expensive if caught.

A suspended drivers license would increase the crime bar to about 25% yellow while driving.

Three suspended driver's license violations would be a MISSION FAILED if caught one more time.

Assaultmachine1
07-04-2007, 08:53 AM
As stated in my book, I find it really necessary to make a game realistic, but it even says what makes games great, which is the fact that video games allow players to do things that society deems inappropriate for citizens to do, even if some of our citizens harbor secret wishes to do them. Video games allow players to do these things---and get away with them---without being patronized, slapped on the wrist, or thrown in jail. We don't honestly need to have the player be thrown in jail because that would make the experience less fun. Taboo is about having video games do things that they could never do in real life without serious repercussions. Therefore, Driver needs to be as realistic as possible, but not for having you be stuck in the court or in jail because that would just be forcing the player in to doing things that ruin the game experience.

Symantecus
07-04-2007, 12:31 PM
Assault, who said anything about being thrown in jail? I never said anything about it.

I SAID the license is suspended pending paying a fine (one screen can tell you that). You get the money to pay the fine by attempting to do missions on your suspended license.

NO JAIL/NO COURT (IT JUST SAYS IT ONSCREEN)...if you go to jail it just ends the mission/session in a FAILURE...Just like when they shoot your arse!

Assaultmachine1
07-04-2007, 03:07 PM
Understood. On the other hand, I think that it's not very reasonable to make you lose your license in the game. The game should be realistic in terms of the law, but I don't think that we want to see another chance at having to get a new license for ourselves or anything else because of having lost it.

This is what we need:

When you are issued a ticket or warrant, your character automatically pays for the crime and the screen goes black. Then it goes back to the game and you are with less money, but still able to do whatever you'd like.

About what happens to your license, I don't think that we need to lose or have it become suspended. The game shouldn't have to go as far as that. However, there will always be money that you will have to pay for having done something wrong after driving or even causing mayhem (i.e. running over people, shooting at people, hitting someone, etc.).

Heck, I don't even think that video games are ready to go that far yet and it would take a lot more capacity to come with as much as we want in a video game, but we can expect laws that will possibly be a little more improved. It's possible to have to pay after being arrested by cops for a crime that you did. And I'm sure that the system as to how cops approach you depending on what you are doing will be more realistic too (cops will appear more careful and intelligent than they have in the past). It's a simple element for the game. Being simple is what a game must do. There cannot be too much complexity in it. If a game isn't simple enough for anyone, only the hardcore or more experienced gamers will want to spend time on such a game.

Symantecus
07-04-2007, 06:44 PM
When you are issued a ticket or warrant, your character automatically pays for the crime and the screen goes black. Then it goes back to the game and you are with less money, but still able to do whatever you'd like.

Okay, but what happens in-game if you don't have the funds to pay the ticket?

Driverman2006
07-04-2007, 06:50 PM
Originally posted by Symantecus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When you are issued a ticket or warrant, your character automatically pays for the crime and the screen goes black. Then it goes back to the game and you are with less money, but still able to do whatever you'd like.

Okay, but what happens in-game if you don't have the funds to pay the ticket? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The slammer, maybe? Well whatever it is, DON'T DROP THE SOAP!http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif (hahahahahahahaha)

Assaultmachine1
07-05-2007, 09:36 AM
Originally posted by Symantecus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">When you are issued a ticket or warrant, your character automatically pays for the crime and the screen goes black. Then it goes back to the game and you are with less money, but still able to do whatever you'd like.

Okay, but what happens in-game if you don't have the funds to pay the ticket? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It could either be that you later have to pay the money that you get from working or that you don't pay at all. One of those options would suit the game for when it comes to not having any money and needing to pay for the crime that you did.

Symantecus
07-05-2007, 06:31 PM
It could either be that you later have to pay the money that you get from working or that you don't pay at all. One of those options would suit the game for when it comes to not having any money and needing to pay for the crime that you did.

Well if that's how you would do it, I'll just say that I'm glad you're not the one developing Driver 5 ... THAT WOULD BE TOTALLY UNREALISITC AND UTTERLY RIDICULOUS! Assault, it would be a laughing stock.

InsaneDriver06
07-05-2007, 06:49 PM
If you're a law abiding gamer and want a license while driving in the car you bought in-game, then yes, this license penalty system would work well.

On the other hand, if you're the kind of player who jacks any car in your way, then penalties about losing your license won't mean much.

Assaultmachine1
07-05-2007, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by Symantecus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">It could either be that you later have to pay the money that you get from working or that you don't pay at all. One of those options would suit the game for when it comes to not having any money and needing to pay for the crime that you did.

Well if that's how you would do it, I'll just say that I'm glad you're not the one developing Driver 5 ... THAT WOULD BE TOTALLY UNREALISITC AND UTTERLY RIDICULOUS! Assault, it would be a laughing stock. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
It's possible to have to pay after being arrested by cops for a crime that you did. This is perhaps the best idea that I would consider for if you didn't pay to begin with. Now are you happy? And second, try to be a little more polite. I'm never impolite to others and even if I think something is either ridiculous or just a bad idea, I try to tell that person what I think of it in a kind and respectful as well as reasonable way. Do not try to make it worse for this community. A community forums is about having people discuss things politely and being able to control themselves of making any bad actions, which can later lead to problems. Please don't be impolite like you just were, Symantecus. I don't want any problems for you, me, or anyone else either.

InsaneDriver06
07-06-2007, 05:50 PM
License penalties, tickets and more, would be nice to give to the traffic offenders while playing as a Highway Patrol Officer in that career. In dangerous cases, you'd be able to arrest any offender and put them in back of your cop car, taking them in to be booked.

Assaultmachine1
07-06-2007, 10:13 PM
As long as this doesn't disrupt and make the game bad in fairness or feasibility, we can have as many realistic laws in the game ever imaginable.

Driverman2006
07-07-2007, 09:09 AM
Well L.A. Rush has a fine/ticket system. If the cops are chasing you and you pull over, they charge you money.


Personally, I don't want "cop" chases because it leads to cop killing. I want bad guys and gangsters to chase me. I don't want the next Driver game to be teaching people how to kill cops. I'm saying this because GTA is one of the most violent games out there because it's all about cop killing. We don't want the "Joe McCarthy" of the 2000s (aka "Jack Thompson") to b!+ch about Driver as he does with GTA and other very violent games that train people to become terrorists. I'm saying this because since 2005, video games like GTA have been training people to commit violent crimes in the real world. In 2005 in Alabama, some teenager trained on GTA and killed cops, and a few months ago, we had the Virginia Tech shooting. So why do we want more attrocities in the real world? Driver needs to have lots of fun in it, but it can still succeed if the cop killing is gone. I know it's only a game, but some people in this world are dumb enough to believe a video game, that's why we've had all of these killing sprees in the last 2 years.

Symantecus
07-07-2007, 10:54 AM
I know it's only a game, but some people in this world are dumb enough to believe a video game, that's why we've had all of these killing sprees in the last 2 years.

GTA is an extreme case, and the ONE teen-ager that went GTA-berserk is an exception to the rule. GTA has sold MILLIONS of games, and only ONE Nimrod(???) This Nimrod would have committed a crime without violence in video games.

Movies and TV have long portraid cop killing. Your statement about "this is why we had all this violence..." is incorrect.

I can play Driver compeletly without killing one cop, look at the video I posted, not one gunshot was fired by me (of course I DID break one cops ankle when I hit him.

Antway, what's with the cop killing ****. You never mentioned ONCE about running down non-cop pedestrians. A cops life is no more valuable than any of those other innocent pedestrtians that get ran down.

Should we remove ALL ability to hit simulated cops and pedestrians? Now the game has become boring because it lacks realism. Just because you CAN run down pedestrians and shoot cops - doesn't mean you should, but it shouldn't be taken out of the game.

Driverman2006
07-07-2007, 11:25 AM
You should still be able to hit people, that's realistic. But shooting at cops should never be "Glorified". That's my point.

Symantecus
07-07-2007, 11:50 AM
Shooting at ANYBODY (without JUST cause) should never be glorified for that matter, Driverman. All I'm saying is - I don't believe in the COP-KILLER (cop promoted) mentality that killing a cop is somehow worse than killing anyone else.

If there are guns in the game, and anyone can be killed with a gun, as in real life, the cops should not be immune, bullet-proof androids. That kills realism and most importantly, suspension of disbelief.

We all try to run down pedestrians and kill people including cops when we first get a game - to see if it reacts realistically (is the world believable - and vulnerable). If you cannot, then the game is an unbelievable arcade-BUST!

After establishing that all people, including cops can be killed - you move on to avoid those kind of situations and enojoy the realism that the environment is vulnerable.

I actually feel bad when I accidentally run down a ped during a car chase, and have to remind myself it's only a game, or when I have to kill a cop - but when that time comes it's only because it's either him or me...you know these are corrupt cops because they don't believe in arresting you - just killing you, making them just as corrupt as a gangster, being judge, jury and executioner.

To cut the cop-killing, the cops need to act more like cops than THUGS. This is where TICKETING comes in handy instead of shoot to kill for running a red light!

motocross299
07-07-2007, 12:10 PM
This is kinda off subject but going back toward the tickets and being more realistic. If they were to do it more like the real world, then they should do the cars more like the real world. For an example: An esclade- make it look more real in the game(similar). Not just thought in a SUV and put like a body kit on it. They should make it look more realistic to the real world. And I am not too crazy about the part of when all our points are gone and we have no licence and then what happends if we were like...4 missions away from beating the game,and we failed the hole game and resart the hole game over.. I would be ticked and brack the controler! lol

Assaultmachine1
07-07-2007, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Symantecus:
Shooting at ANYBODY (without JUST cause) should never be glorified for that matter, Driverman. All I'm saying is - I don't believe in the COP-KILLER (cop promoted) mentality that killing a cop is somehow worse than killing anyone else.

If there are guns in the game, and anyone can be killed with a gun, as in real life, the cops should not be immune, bullet-proof androids. That kills realism and most importantly, suspension of disbelief.

We all try to run down pedestrians and kill people including cops when we first get a game - to see if it reacts realistically (is the world believable - and vulnerable). If you cannot, then the game is an unbelievable arcade-BUST!

After establishing that all people, including cops can be killed - you move on to avoid those kind of situations and enojoy the realism that the environment is vulnerable.

I actually feel bad when I accidentally run down a ped during a car chase, and have to remind myself it's only a game, or when I have to kill a cop - but when that time comes it's only because it's either him or me...you know these are corrupt cops because they don't believe in arresting you - just killing you, making them just as corrupt as a gangster, being judge, jury and executioner.

To cut the cop-killing, the cops need to act more like cops than THUGS. This is where TICKETING comes in handy instead of shoot to kill for running a red light!
Of course we need to keep the cop killing still present in the Driver games. If we don't see cops or see no possibly way of killing them, it would make no sense at all. The laws of the felony system would then be gone and this would give too much for Driver to change and even handle, which I think that most would be dissapointed about.

Also, I would like to point out that I've just gotten my new issue of Electronic Gaming Monthly, which has an article about violent video games leading to aggressive behavior. It states that while people do find worse behavior from playing such video games, there is still not knowing if these video games are the main cause. The number of kids under 17 who committed murder fell 65 percent between 1993 and 2004, so you can't say exactly that it will affect all kids in a bad way. And the FCC cited a report in its recent findings that couldn't find a convincing link. Taken together, findings to date suggest that media violence has a relatively small impact on violence (i.e. Dodgeball and Paintball show similar results). The surgeon general said, "the overall effect size for both randomized and correlational studies was small for physical aggression and moderate for aggressive thinking. The impact of videogames on violent behavior has yet to be determined." There's possible link between violent media and loosely defined "aggressive behavior" (noise blasts, clowndoll punching, and so on) but is left with no evidence that playng violent games actually causes violent-let alone criminal-actions in real life.

Driver can allow for an experience similar to GTA in some of the on-foot and driving, but can also have its own ways of getting things done and can certainly offer careers for the game that aren't always about violence, such as racing or even giving a ticket to a bad driver.

Symantecus
07-07-2007, 06:28 PM
Good point, Assault.

Think back: What video game influenced the likes of, Jesse James, Bonnie & Clyde, John Dillinger, Al Capone, Billy the KID? NONE, because there were no such things as video games in their day, but if there were, and these gangsters played them, they would have blamed their lawless behavior on...

...playing violent video games.

Violence has ALWAYS been a part of the human experience in society, with or without computer games, the violent will be violent and computer games won't cause them to be MORE violent.

When considering the VAST numbers of BILLIONS of computer gamers playing violent games, to blame violent computer games for one or two violent nutcases is ... INSANE statistics.

What I DON'T like in DPL is that you can run over and kill as many pedestrians as you want without it being reported to police or effect your felony rating...but hit one policeman (not even kill him) and your felony rating goes all the way RED. What's up with that BS?

I never understood the ridiculousness of the "cop-killer" terminology, as if cops are different or better than other people. The term should be trashed, a killer is a killer :-) regardless who he/she kills.

InsaneDriver06
07-08-2007, 05:05 AM
A video game (GTA, etc) allows the gamer to be violent in the video game, not the real world. The gamer must decide between reality and video games. Video games aren't responsible for teaching what reality is.

A video game is not designed to kill real people, but fictional characters in the game only. To take it into reality means that gamer has major issues.

They can use the game as an excuse, but it was their decision to kill real people, not the game's. The game might influence their ideas, but it does not carry their ideas out into the real world.

--

One solution is for crowds and cops to automatically leap out of the way, like in Driver 1 and 2. No one gets hurt unnecessarily, and the focus STAYS on driving, not killing.

Driverman2006
07-08-2007, 02:10 PM
Cops always chase me if I hit somebody in D:PL. Your copy of D:PL must be screwed up Symantecus. In terms of a "Bad Guy" game, D:PL had the best police AI. If a cop sees you break ANY law (on foot or traffic), you get felony and they come after you.

Symantecus
07-08-2007, 03:28 PM
The cop AI isn't near perfect, but it's beter than all other video games.

No, Driverman, my install is not screwed up - LOL! You can run over a person, if the police are not around and nothing will happen.

On the other hand, if you pull out a gun, THEN they'll come. Try it. That needs a fix. If you hit someone, SOMEBODY is gonna call the police...well, maybe not in New York - LOL! Hey, maybe the AI isn't screwed up after all...it's the REAL INTELLIGENCE that screwed up :-)

An old NYC joke:

A guy from New York said, "It was really snowin and the sidewalks were really icey. I saw some guy in Italian loafers slippin' and sliden' in the ice until he went head first into a plate glass window at Macy's!

I had to call an ambulance, because...

...I was laughin' so hard, I thought I was gonna' die!

:-)

InsaneDriver06
12-23-2007, 09:35 PM
TRAFFIC LAWS, TICKETS AND PURSUITS

A new chase system should emerge, where if you run a red light, speed too far above the limit, hit another vehicle, pedestrians, signs or buildings, the cop will hit his lights and get behind your car, where you'll have 30 seconds to immediately pull to the side of the road.

He/she will exit and proceed to walk up to your vehicle to hand you a TICKET. The ticket could be small, like $70 depending on the traffic violation.
The whole idea is, it's just a traffic violation, not a reason to arrest you or ram your car(Driver 1, 2, 3, PL).

IF you decide not to stop for a TICKET, THEN and only then will the cop pursue. If you continue, he'll call in one more squad car, each time adding another with each progressing violation of the law, eventually calling in the whole force, for road blocks and epic freeway pursuits.

Assault_machine
12-24-2007, 03:20 PM
Perhaps the next Driver game can follow up to the traffic law system as that which was found in Mafia: The City of Lost Heaven because it has had so much realism in terms of law and I don't really think that Driver nor any other game needs to really worry about going further than that. This is how Mafia's Law & Order is like (note: I took this information from Wikipedia.org):


Minor Offenses

Offense Police Reaction Notes
Speeding: (Fine Only) applies to speeding of a fairly low speed of 40 mph (60km/h) to 65mph (100km/h)
Crash: (Fine Only) applies to crashing into other cars at low speed, or crashing into objects such as phone booths, trash cans, etc.
Running Red Lights: A Fine of $200
Traffic Sign Damaged: A Fine of $235

Serious Offenses

Offense Police Reaction Notes
Speeding: (Arrest) Only applies to speeding of 65 mph (90 km/h) or higher, or not stopping for a minor offense in thirty seconds.
Crash: (Arrest) Only applies to causing harm to people when crashing
Gun Seen: (Arrest) Carrying weapons in full view like the Knife, Baseball Bat, and Knuckle-Dusters will not cause a reaction from the police
Shots Fired: (Shootout) Police will fire on you until you're dead; regardless if you do not fire at them, or if you drop your weapons
Violence Seen: (Arrest) Fighting with people with bare hands
Assault On Police: (leads to a shootout) Police will fire on you until you're dead; regardless if you do not have a weapon or you do not continue to fight
Assault On Police Car: (a car chase begins) If you ram into a police car they will chase you until you stop or are unable to drive any further
Car Theft: (Arrest) Hijacking or lockpicking a car will lead to the arrest.

However, I must warn that if the game is to follow traffic laws, extensively, it may only worsen the car chases. In Mafia you'd usually be better off following the law to get from one destination to another in any mission. And not only this, but you never really saw any car chases that went beyond 65 miles per hour. Such is the case that Reflections would really have to be careful with their next Driver game and still allow for players to decide whether they should or shouldn't go by the law. In fact, I think that certain missions should be available for you to get through, without a timer, which then opens up the possibility of whether you should avoid law enforcement at all costs or risk doing it anyways. This would, in the end, really make Driver feel more expanded and not just as if its only about car chases, but that its driving formula can be extended even further. This is what we have yet to see from a Driver game and if Driver doesn't make any big changes that help it stand out different from other games with a crime setting, both linear and non-linear, I don't think that I'll feel very compelled to play any Driver game ever again, except that of the first Driver game.

Oh and not to go off-topic, but I'd like to point out that Mafia was perhaps the best inspiration for a video game to offer realistic drive-bys, even before that of GTA:SA. It came out in the year 2002, so it was a great few years before Rockstar North finally decided their GTA game, after that of GTA:VC, being GTA: SA, to use this feature. This proves that Mafia actually offered some excellent quality. Not only did it fine tune a crime storyline, it even managed to get the AI, cars, weapons, and all else feel as realistic as possible. If you ask me, Reflections can do a lot for its Driver franchise if it manages to go further in terms of the realism for everything that is seen within the game than Mafia could ever hope to go, or better yet, Mafia's developer, Illusion Softworks. Also, I want to point out that DPL's cop AI, which Driverman2006 claims as being the best in a video game so far, is not the case, as I'm pretty sure that Mafia's cop AI was better, especially when you can say that its AI was, in all regards, better than that of any other game involving a crime setting (GTA, Driver, True Crime, The Getaway, Saint's Row, etc.).

Edit: Today, I was just playing through Driver again, on my Playstation 2 console and it really angered me in the end. This is because the game always crashes at Mission 20, of any of the two missions that you can pick between (note: These are the very first missions in LA), so I don't think that I'll ever go back to playing D1, unless I find a way to buy it for the PC. The PC version has better graphics, includes Newcastle as an unlockable city, and the cheats that are unlockable in the PS version are also there (I think so), so this will possibly be my only chance of ever playing Driver or even yet, another Driver game ever again.

InsaneDriver06
12-26-2007, 09:35 PM
I see your point about Mafia's traffic laws. Those are some solid ideas that could fit well into the Driver games. Afterall, why include a traffic lights just for pedestrians to abide by? Running a red light should result in a ticket if the player decides to pull over to the side.


Originally posted by AssaultMachine1
so this will possibly be my only chance of ever playing Driver or even yet, another Driver game ever again.

"Never play another Driver game ever again?" Not a true fan of the series? I look beyond the initial flaws to the great car controls throughout most of the series, though as you say, there's always room for improvement, in not only the physics, but gameplay, story, execution and so on.

Driver 1 hasn't consistently crashed on me, very rarely, and not at any particular mission, could be a bug in your version or on the PS2.

Assault_machine
12-28-2007, 03:12 PM
Yes, if Reflections is to make a really good Driver game, they must implement a lot towards the traffic laws, but not so much that it makes the game unfair and not fun, two important F's of the 4F's Of Great Game Design. Traffic laws definitely need to be considered, and players can choose to follow them or not, but most missions, particularly those of Undercover, I'm sure will be high speed hollywood-styled car chases, so that won't apply to that portion of the game very much. However, it'd be quite interesting to have a few missions in which you must abide by the traffic laws. And the story, much like Mafia is for making you feel as much like a real gangster as possible, needs to make every career feel as if you're really a part of it.

I didn't necessarily mean it when I said that I'll never play a Driver game again, but I likely won't buy a game ever and I'll try to play DPL and D3 throughout, just to help put together some professional reviews for them (much after I've been able to know how to write and think like a critic). The same will be done for D1 and D2. However, I want to avoid the mistakes which many critics sometimes make, which is to leave out specific things about a video game, so I'll make sure to, describe in details, how everything a part of the game truly is like, and if the game does live up to being a great game or if it is not something that anyone, other than a diehard fan of the particular franchise can live with playing.

To deal with the problem of D1, I hope to buy a new or used copy of it and use that disc rather than my current one, which must be experiencing some errors. I could possibly get my disc fixed up, with having no more of those scratches (Game Crazy can eliminate scratches on game discs), so it can possibly fix up the problem that is with my disc. If not, I'll just have to buy another copy of it.

InsaneDriver06
12-28-2007, 08:18 PM
Driver 1 is a classic. It kept things simple. Stunt driving, hollywood pursuit chases with a great film director. It had some really frustrating missions, but was still a great game to experience for fans of Driving games.

I remember thinking in 1999 on release day, "This is the most realisitic vehicle handling I've ever played in a game. Awesome."