Inspecting Merchant Papers

[HeibgesU999]

Will we be able to request merchants halt and send us their manifests in a launch? Will we be able to tell if they use their wire telegraphy?

[HeibgesU999]

Will we be able to request merchants halt and send us their manifests in a launch? Will we be able to tell if they use their wire telegraphy?

[RedTerex]

Sounds interesting as all depths of realism for SH3 are being explored.

Questions that surface though as I plead ignorance on this particular theme.

1. Did U-boat commanders actually request a ships manifest prior to sinking it ?
2. Did Sub crews actualy ever search vessels?
3. Would it not be dangerous to surface to search a ship that could be armed?
4. Would it be a good idea to let a launch over to your sub that could filled with armed and dangerous types ?
5. Giving your position away to an enemy vessel could endanger your entire sub and crew.

I think that U-boats as hunter killers were exactly that ! Hunter Killers..they hunted then killed their prey, without a bye your leave or kiss my rump ! It was war..total war.


Regards

RedTerex

[jeroen-79]

In the beginning of the war submarine commanders would stop unescorted vessels and let the crew go out but that changed quickly to unrestricted submarine warfare.

[bertgang]

Stopping merchants and inspecting papers was mostly a WWI tactic, but it was still in use at the beginning of WWII.
I'd like to see it but, knowing that lifeboats are left down, I'm not overconfident.

[HeibgesU999]

1. Did U-boat commanders actually request a ships manifest prior to sinking it?
Only in the very early part of the war. Britain has armed some of their merchants before the war even started. According to KD in his memoirs (thanks for the reading suggestion Drebbel) the British really manipulated the Prize Regualtions for their own benefit.

2. Did Sub crews actualy ever search vessels?
According to the Uboat Commanders Handbook only in an absolute emergency, and I'm not sure if it ever happened for real.

3. Would it not be dangerous to surface to search a ship that could be armed?
Very dangerous. The uboat commanders handbook says to surface to the stern on the vehicle, so only the stern guns can engage you.

4. Would it be a good idea to let a launch over to your sub that could filled with armed and dangerous types ?
That's why the uboat commanders handbook says to have tommyguns and handgrenades ready when the launch comes along side.

5. Giving your position away to an enemy vessel could endanger your entire sub and crew.

Absolutely, if the ship sends any messages at all, the uboat commanders handbook says to open up with everything you've got. This is considered hostile action, even if a submarine is not mentioned in the message.

[RedTerex]

Thanks for the responce !

regards

RedTerex

[TASKFORCE1x1]

WWI was the lost era where men were more like gentlemen like how there were when they were knights of the sky. With WWII things got a bit complicated politically which forced Uboats to be more vicious. Some of the things we see WWII Japanese do were ungentlemen like were instances where they would take a disguised armed merchant ship against a Gato class WWII american sub. Some situations like this started also with the German Merchants. The sides would fold down and reveil 1 or 2 deck guns which took out subs and other merchant ships.

Keep on Smiling'

[HeibgesU999]

Didn't the British use disguised merchants in WWI and WWII?

[TASKFORCE1x1]

Yes in some instances they used ocean liners filled with 50 gal empty barrels which made the ship much more difficult to sink. It also had hidden guns.

Keep on Smiling'

[Kejotikk]

Germans using Tommyguns? That sounds highly unlikely. :P

The Thompson Submachine gun more commonly known as the Tommygun was an american weapon, the germans submachine gun of choice was the MP40.

[TASKFORCE1x1]

I liked that gun in Battlefield 1942. 30 rounds and kinda steady shootin' It was my weapon of choice. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Keep on Smiling'

[Kejotikk]

Which one? The Thompson or the MP40?

[Redwine]

To inspect ship papers and load.........

This feature modelated will be so great ! But I think so it sure is a little bit complex to modelate......

How to check ship mechancy onboard ?


For that I remember, this procedure (inspect papers and load) was normal in WW1 up to the No Restriction War was declared due to the submarine trap deployed by englands.........

In WW2 it was a standard procedure with neutral ships going to British Islands........up to the Triton Null order........after Laconia incident and many other incidents, about a dozen similar was mentioned by germans........

I remember Kpt. Kretschmer I think so.......(or may be Kpt. Spiess in WW1) found a inofensive steam ship with sail masts........when he approach the inofensive little ship attemp his defense with a ridiculus 20mm gun.......... with very good aiming as tells Kpt Kretschmer..........

This "non dangerous" ship was taking range measurement.......... when he approach the sub to the little ship, it discover his 3 105mm deckguns, open fire with the 3 cannons and was near to destroy the sub..............

This "trap" ships was normally escorted by a submerged sub, who launch torps against the enemy sub attempting to inspect the inofensive ship............


Procedures along the war vary too much, and may be a little bit complex to modelated all them, but not imposible..........

May be ........... at early times, we can made advertece shoots, and wait for ship evacuation to sink it, with cannon..........

This will not posible at later times with armed merchants............

I think so the team can give us a midium solution about this real behaviors...........

______________________________
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http://personales.ciudad.com.ar/pietraroja/imagenes/firmas/EscudoU552b.jpg
.
The Ancient History of the Submarine
"Subgenesis" (http://www.iespana.es/Subgenesis/subgenesis/sg00.htm)

Manual TDC
"HTDC Tutorial" (http://www.iespana.es/rotteufel/htdc_tutorial/a_start.htm)
.

[HeibgesU999]

"tommygun" is what the translation of the uboat commanders handbook uses. perhaps in those days all submachine guns were tommyguns.

[jeroen-79]

Or guns for shooting Tommies?

[HeibgesU999]

lol http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Bruno_Lotse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The Thompson Submachine gun more commonly known as the Tommygun was an american weapon, the germans submachine gun of choice was the MP40.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
On the Estern Front German front-line solders were hunting for Russian PPSh-41. That thing had 71!!! rounds and more importantly - it never jammed. Russian winter, dirt, water - who cares. You press the trigger - PPSh fires. Both MP-38 and MP-40 were notorious for jamming problem.

Bruno Lotse
U743

[Bruno_Lotse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TASKFORCE1x1:
WWI was the lost era where men were more like gentlemen like how there were when they were knights of the sky. With WWII things got a bit complicated politically which forced Uboats to be more vicious. Some of the things we see WWII Japanese do were ungentlemen like were instances where they would take a disguised armed merchant ship against a Gato class WWII american sub. Some situations like this started also with the German Merchants. The sides would fold down and reveil 1 or 2 deck guns which took out subs and other merchant ships.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Here are two stories of Günther Hessler - Commander of U-107 - about mores in Atlantic theater:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The experienced U-boat Commander was justifiably suspicious of every merchantman and its crew, no matter how innocent they might appear. In two cases this attitude of suspicion saved me from destruction.

This happened in the case of the steamer Kalchas, a ten- thousand ton British ship, which I torpedoed north of Cape Verde. The ship had stopped after being hit by the torpedo. The crew had left the ship and were in the life-boats, and the boat seemed to be sinking. I was wondering whether to surface in order, at least, to give the crew their position and ask if they needed water. A feeling which I could not explain kept me from doing so. I raised my periscope to the fullest extent and just as the periscope rose almost entirely out of the water, sailors who had been hiding under the guns and behind the rails, jumped up, manned the guns of the vessel - which so far had appeared to be entirely abandoned - and opened fire on my periscope at very close range, compelling me to submerge at full speed. The shells fell close to the periscope but were not dangerous to me.

In the second case, the steamer Alfred Jones, which I torpedoed off Friedhaven, also seemed to be sinking. I wondered whether to surface, when I saw in one of the life- boats two sailors of the English Navy in full uniform. That aroused my suspicions. I inspected the ship at close range - I would say from a distance of 50 to 100 metres - and established the fact that it had not been abandoned, but that marines were still concealed aboard her in every possible hiding-place and behind wooden boarding. When I torpedoed the ship this boarding was smashed. I saw that the ship had at least four to six guns of ten and fifteen centimeter calibre, a large number of depth-charge throwers and anti-aircraft guns behind the rails. Only a pure accident-the fact that the depth charges had been rendered blank, saved me from destruction.

It was clear to me, naturally, after such an experience, that I could no longer concern myself with crews or survivors without endangering my own ship.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Source (http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/imt/tgmwc/tgmwc-14/tgmwc-14-129-10.shtml)
Bruno Lotse
U743

[BobTuck]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TASKFORCE1x1:
WWI was the lost era where men were more like gentlemen like how there were when they were knights of the sky. With WWII things got a bit complicated politically which forced Uboats to be more vicious. Some of the things we see WWII Japanese do were ungentlemen like were instances where they would take a disguised armed merchant ship against a Gato class WWII american sub. Some situations like this started also with the German Merchants. The sides would fold down and reveil 1 or 2 deck guns which took out subs and other merchant ships.

Keep on Smiling'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hi Taskforce,

Whereas I would agree that things were better organised and more business-like in WW2, I have to disagree with the idea that combatants were more gentleman-like in WW1. That is the preconceived idea of operations in WW1, but in fact their nature was just as deadly and back-stabbing as in WW2. I have read lots of accounts of 'Knights of the air' aerial combat where the protagonists would try to sneak up unseen on a victim and try and shoot them in the back (Manfred Von Richthofen included). I have also read lots of accounts of WW2 aerial action where opponents have escorted wounded/damaged to home airspace (note that this happens when they are in an unthreatened and victorious position), so I think you get both flavours in all wars. It just depends on the individual personalities involved. The ultimate rule is that if you can rack up 'kills' with certainty and without endangering yourself or your crew - by backstabbing - then that is the main stratagem to use. The element of surprise is king.

[HeibgesU999]

I read somewhere that 85% of all "kills" by US pilots totalled from WWI, WWII, Korea and Vietnam were from attacking opponents from the rear who had no idea they were there.

Nearly impossible to hit a fast moving object with machine guns if it is taking evasive action.

Surprise is definitely key.

[TASKFORCE1x1]

Bruno_Lotse & BobTuck, Thankyou for your replies. History is good for learning the mistakes from the past. I dont want to repeat their mistakes. You can bet I dont want to surface taking any chance on endangering my crew for any reason. The enemy is always finding a way to even the score, wouldnt I? YES! So thinking like the enemy I would not take a chance to come under fire no matter how awe struck I am with graphics and eyecandy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Keep on Smiling'