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Assault_machine
12-17-2007, 03:07 PM
I'm quite tired of hearing terms mentioned with "clone." It only makes a game seem less impressive in what it was able to do. But most games of a particular genre are similar to one another and that is not such a problem. Personally, I don't think it matters whether a game implements new features or not, but that it works hard enough to make great use of those features. Therefore, it's ridiculous to criticize a game being too similar to another game. Instead, the features should be looked at in detail and described how good they are, based on what they set out to do.


Although GTA III really made the free-roam genre popular and took it to new heights, it only brought the GTA franchise into a third dimension and fused the elements of other genres and games to make the freedom and the rest of the game feel very good. The real credit as to which game pioneered the 3-D free-roam experience and the stealing of many different kinds of vehicles should be for that of Body Harvest, a 1998 game, like GTA, made by a Scottish developer that we all know, which is DMA Design (now is known as Rockstar North). Better yet, the credit should go even further, to that of a 1994 PC game called Quarantine. Therefore, it makes GTA a clone of those games before it, and it is silly to even see the term "GTA clone" being used.


The most important thing, at this point, for Reflections is to make an even more improved game over DPL, which certainly did better than D3. Reflections did make some necessary changes for DPL, except when removing Film Director and adding a thrill cam, which slowed the game down after hitting a vehicle at high speeds (it was so annoying). Of course, DPL wasn't the best free-roam game ever, but it did improve in many ways for its own franchise. Make a Driver game that isn't too different and dissapointing for us, but make it level the amount of the experience of the Driver franchise more than that of the inclusion of features found in other free-roam games, such being the GTA franchise.

PennySillin
12-17-2007, 03:40 PM
No no no, DPL is not better than D3. Together, features of both games would be better than either alone.

DPL may have high speed, lots of traffic, and... well that all it has, but D3 has way better crashes, fps controls on foot, sharp graphics that actually look interesting

InsaneDriver06
12-17-2007, 05:51 PM
I think when you have a mostly serious tone to your game, like Driver 1, 2 and 3, then make it more comical like in DPL, many people will feel like it's trying to be more like GTA than a Driver game, considering the "cartoony" graphics, wise-cracking pedestrians, over-the-top walk animations(which were really well animated by the way), taxi-mini games and a few other elements.

Even said, DPL's driving engine is IMO, superior to anything GTA has done to this point. I'll have to see how GTA4's vehicles handle, but I'm guessing not as good as Reflection's Driver series, which always gets the weight of the vehicle down first, for more realism in handling compared to GTA's lightweight, quick turning cartoony cars.

If a developer makes a football game first, and another developer makes their own football game afterwards, is the second game a clone/rip-off if it features different styles, features and gameplay, but has the same theme of football? No. A game theme is free for everyone, but Driver must stay true to the Car Chase Theme first, more than something like GTA's Character Theme, which puts vehicles second behind the character.

Assault_machine
12-18-2007, 10:17 PM
Originally posted by PennySillin:
No no no, DPL is not better than D3. Together, features of both games would be better than either alone.

DPL may have high speed, lots of traffic, and... well that all it has, but D3 has way better crashes, fps controls on foot, sharp graphics that actually look interesting

I figure that you're only saying this because DPL was a shift from much of the focus of the Driver franchise. However, it gave many significant changes for the Driver franchise, many that were ideas from GTA games, of course. And although it was less realistic looking than D3, D3 had so many more technical issues (or glitches), just as GameSpot makes clear, some of which make the buildings be able for you to see through and the Xbox version's vehicles looked ugly, whereas DPL had much less problems with the graphics. Personally, even though DPL is a much closer approach to the GTA games than to the Driver franchise, I still believe that the significant changes presented in it(sequels are usually better with significant changes rather than always improvements over existing features).

DPL had less glitches (except for the PC version and when running DPL on a PS3), so it turned out that Reflections succeeded more, with the help of Atari, on creating this game, and quite possibly, Atari made sure to help out even more with this game than they ever could with D3.

This is a list of what I thought about D3, as the bad part:

- is nothing more than the closest approach to realism

- jumping is lame, as is the rolling ability

- aiming weapons is repetitive

- weapons are of a small variety and are not the very best ones for such a game

- Timmy vercellis are just a really pointless idea of trying to make fun of GTA:VC

- missions are pretty boring

- Film director is very short, in comparison to D1 and D2's.

- has realistic models of vehicles and buildings as well as better damage effects and explosions (DPL had better physics, however)

- the story was pretty terrible (DPL's wasn't so good too, but is not as bad)

- the soundtrack was annoying

- the AI in D3 was often times laughable and is very stupid. There was a mission with Tanner when he was in Istanbul, at a building, where Jericho had gone to speak with someone. After Jerich is done speaking, all of a sudden, Tanner has been spotted and runs up the stairs. As he runs up the stairs, he kills a guy who gets shot three times in the back and doesn't react. On the roof, there was one guy who was on the other side of the rail, where the ledge was and where you can fall the easiest. This didn't make much sense at all.

- Having a narrator speaking for a Driver game and for a storyline that is pretty terrible, only made it worse and it even got annoying at some point of time.

Since DPL had less glitches, it's graphics and framerate, in the end, turned out much better than that of D3's. The gameplay was better too, even with the exclusion of swimming and rolling.

PennySillin
12-18-2007, 10:55 PM
The glitches in D3 were more fun than a lot of DPL. I do appreciate the high speeds, smooth framerate, and tons of traffic (though maybe less would help the cop chases), but it just doesn't stack up to D3, which also is not a great game, entertaining for a few minutes

The realism in D3 is only to en extent, its not overly realistic where its annoying (Gran Turismo), and its arcadey enough that a new player can jump in and drive car almost as good as a pro.

As I've said before, I'm no fan of the more and more realistic physics seen in DPL. I prefer the exaggeration of D1 or D3

Assault_machine
12-19-2007, 11:39 AM
Realism used to be the one approach that I've been wanting in several games of mine that I hope to work on. But when I learned more about the Video Game Industry, I realized that photorealism in graphics and the best realism in a game are just not enough to make a game be worthy enough for anyone to play. The improvement and innovation of a game, on that of its genre, is what truly makes games go exceed any others. In the end, it's the other elements to it, including the artistic styles and other ways of innovating, that really help make a game spectacular. Therefore, D3 is more realistic than DPL, but, in many cases, doesn't deliver as much. This means that realistic games aren't always the best around. For instance, Super Mario Galaxy is perhaps the closest game to that of LOZ: Ocarina of Time, in terms of how good it was. It goes beyond any game, even that of the Platformer genre. Different ratings for games mean that a game will likely take a much different approach. Even Game Rankings ranked the everyone games higher than those with any of other ratings. The Teen rated games, while not ranked higher than the Everyone ones, was actually ranked higher than the Mature rated ones.

As far as D3 went, most people thought it was terrible, except, of course, for certain diehard Driver fans. The glitches (or technical issues) only made playing it feel worse and that much more broken. Trying to be very non-linear was the problem for D3 that caused it to experience so much problems and DPL tried to do non-linearity, to some of an extent, but didn't do as poorly. DPL felt much better, but still didn't do a lot for the driving and free-roam genres. Being a fan of a particular franchise is what I consider to be a slightly risky direction. Although I'm a member and am posting constantly on the Driver forums, I can't really say that I've enjoyed the Driver franchise very much. D1 was absolutely one of the best games I've ever played and its replay value is still a very good one. D2 was a fair game, but later on, its replay value and other aspects made it feel worse, so right now, I don't feel compelled to play it at all. And while I enjoyed D2 a lot in the beginning, I didn't enjoyed it anymore after I compared it to how well D1 did. D3 was a very bad experience, even though I played it some times with my cousin and fooled around.

I don't see a very big chance of being around too often anymore because the Driver franchise has really not been the best that it could've been, but I think that I will post here for some time and afterwards, I'll only feel compelled enough to read other members' posts because posting on forums is really making me feel drained out and I don't appreciate it as much, nor do I enjoy it as much as before.

InsaneDriver06
12-20-2007, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by AssaultMachine1:
I don't see a very big chance of being around too often anymore because the Driver franchise has really not been the best that it could've been, but I think that I will post here for some time and afterwards, I'll only feel compelled enough to read other members' posts because posting on forums is really making me feel drained out and I don't appreciate it as much, nor do I enjoy it as much as before.

A big part of your frustration posting likely stems from the huge posts you write. If I complied all your posts, we'd have a 500+ page book. One suggestion, as useful as your thoughts are, is to reduce the amount of words it takes to say what your point is. It will take up much less time, allowing for other things. Just a suggestion, since you have quite a few great ideas for the Driver series, Driving Careers, Cop Mode being two of them.




Originally posted by PennySillin:
The realism in D3 is only to en extent, its not overly realistic where its annoying (Gran Turismo), and its arcadey enough that a new player can jump in and drive car almost as good as a pro.


Regarding the Gran Turismo series, it's not entirely realistic either(haven't played GT5 yet), thanks to crashes that stop dead with no impact or movement; they just stop moving the car, the inability to lock the steering wheel "full-lock" left or right, making turning in a small circle almost impossible, no true burnouts, (in Tourist Trophy, no foot down when falling at slow speed)... Those are the biggest gripes about the GT's lack of realism, as they're not representing the true capabilities of a vehicle if you can't even turn around properly.

Assault_machine
12-20-2007, 04:39 PM
You certainly do have a point there, InsaneDriver06. It's good that you've criticized me in some way. And, no, I'm not angry. When you think about it, sometimes it is just good to get criticism from others because that can also ensure you that you can do whatever it takes to improve, which is what I've been known for doing a lot on the Atari forums. Therefore, I think that I can make it happen again. This time, I'll post 3 paragraphs or less, for the start.

As for why I don't feel like staying here anymore, it's not really that I post long paragraphs. In fact, I've been enjoying this, but little do I know that it is more suitable for when writing a book and this is simply posting, which is there for someone to get right to the point and not spend so much time on doing it. Also, I would like to make this clear that I'm going to start limiting myself in a number of different aspects because being broad is a problem for me on any kind of forums. This means that I'll post in only specific topics, such being this one, the "Next-Gen Driver Wishlist," and maybe even the one called "Don't Forget the Past."

driver_madness
12-20-2007, 05:10 PM
I go around to lots of forums particular in the Driver Community and I always ready around see what everyone has to say and lots of times I find posts which are pages long and you get to the last work and your sick of reading.

An idea I've had for a while now is try to get interactive with your ideas.
Make a simple driving game in a very simple game making app to express you idea.
Draw a picture.
Make a Presentation (Powerpoint or Flash)
Take a Screenshot (change it to suit your idea)
Make a Video (change it to suit you idea)

If you have the skills I think it's a good idea, get people away from reading text and enables them to sit back and relax!

Assault_machine
12-20-2007, 05:17 PM
What a very nice suggestion it is that you've made, driver_madness. Wonderful. I'll keep that in mind for the future. As for right now, I am not an expert on computers, so this makes me less capable of extending my ideas on how I can have others interactive with my ideas. Sure I can post images, but I certainly would love to be able to do more than that and right at the moment, I've got so many things I need to do that are besides my hobbies and interests, such being posting on forums, so I don't think that it'll happen very soon.

InsaneDriver06
12-20-2007, 08:20 PM
At the very least, your writing skills will definitely improve, as they already have, with plenty of writing, so it's not a loss either way.

I find myself erasing long paragraphs that I spent five minutes writing, looking at it and wondering how I could better sum it up, as I know most people skip through "essays".

Simple and to the point is the answer.

Assault_machine
12-21-2007, 11:56 PM
Yes, you're absolutely correct, InsaneDriver06. We must make short sentences and paragraphs that, however, will not be weak and, instead, have to be right to the point.

I want to make clear that Reflections, at this point and since the 6th generation, is lucky enough to be able to make good games, if more work is placed upon its games, and mainly, all that ever needs to be considered for this is the direction of realism, hollywood car chases, and of other vehicles, as well as certain GTA elements. Without the Scottish developer Rockstar North, it would have done no justice at all for the idea of non-linearity. It is what keeps driving the concept forward the most. However, once developers have gained more time and have done more work for their games, I'm sure that they can become, soon enough, as highly competitive as Rockstar North. It just will take some time before that will be possible. This is exactly what happened in the transition from previous video game generations to that of the current 7th generation, which saw the Sony Playstation consoles dominate, once they were released, but Microsoft and Nintendo have made vast improvements to ensure that such will not happen again this generation. Sony, too, is a highly competitive company for video games, but it will need to bring forth more for its games. The same could be seen with Volition and Reflections for going towards dominating the free-roam genre, particularly, the crime city setting.

Edit: I've recently had this pretty interesting idea for how movies can be made to appear. This involves the use of the first-person view, which would make it feel as if you're the main character himself/herself. There is no knowing whether such an idea would go well, but I just thought I'd share this with everyone.

InsaneDriver06
12-22-2007, 03:32 PM
As far as the whole GTA type sandbox game, the last thing I want to do is pop in the new Driver, and think, "It's an open-city GTA-style game, but with Driver vehicle controls." That's kind of how DPL turned out, but I know it was only a side-game to the series.

GTA Formula:
-Visit spots on the map for guns, cars, health, missions.
-Have a hideout to store vehicles
-Each pedestrian makes humorous remarks
-Open Sandbox gameplay, go anywhere anytime
-Cartoony controls on foot and in vehicle
-Unlock new parts of the city to explore only by completing missions
-Customize character, clothing, cars
-Land, air, sea vehicles

There's plenty more to add, but that's the general gameplay formula that's being repeated over and over in games like DPL, Saints Row, True Crime, even Mercenaries/Just Cause to a degree. The formula is getting dull, each game starts to feel like the same experience with a new coat of paint.

Gamers expect certain features in an open world game, but the part that is a big giveaway is having Pedestrians make humorous remarks on the street. They don't do much else besides that.

Not saying remove some key features, but think of new ways to present an open world driving/on foot game.

PennySillin
12-22-2007, 03:43 PM
I too thought of making a video, but then I realized, I don't want to crash my car, and running around in my neighborhood with a gun is not a good idea

Assault_machine
12-22-2007, 10:06 PM
Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
As far as the whole GTA type sandbox game, the last thing I want to do is pop in the new Driver, and think, "It's an open-city GTA-style game, but with Driver vehicle controls." That's kind of how DPL turned out, but I know it was only a side-game to the series.

GTA Formula:
-Visit spots on the map for guns, cars, health, missions.
-Have a hideout to store vehicles
-Each pedestrian makes humorous remarks
-Open Sandbox gameplay, go anywhere anytime
-Cartoony controls on foot and in vehicle
-Unlock new parts of the city to explore only by completing missions
-Customize character, clothing, cars
-Land, air, sea vehicles

There's plenty more to add, but that's the general gameplay formula that's being repeated over and over in games like DPL, Saints Row, True Crime, even Mercenaries/Just Cause to a degree. The formula is getting dull, each game starts to feel like the same experience with a new coat of paint.

Gamers expect certain features in an open world game, but the part that is a big giveaway is having Pedestrians make humorous remarks on the street. They don't do much else besides that.

Not saying remove some key features, but think of new ways to present an open world driving/on foot game.
You said it, InsaneDriver06. The gameplay for free-roam games with crime settings is too much the same. And the pedestrians should be able to have a lot more ways to speak, other than just ways referring to humour. In my perspective, I see that while humour is great for a video game, the other moods should also be set in the game. For instance, while some moods can be bad, such as pissing you off or making you feel sad, it makes a game more dramatic and realistic. The more moods a game offers, the more it will be able to push forth, especially when you're trying to make a free-roam game that is more different than those of today.

Mafia is a good example of a video game that is dramatic while GTA is the best at humour. And a really good game that, however, isn't a free-roam game, and focuses on many moods is Resident Evil: Code Veronica (Dreamcast version) & Code Veronica X (PS2 version). It displays great amounts of horror and, for the first time, really makes great use of a sad mood at one point in the game. The sad mood is that one of the main characters, Claire Redfield, cries after another character named Steve Burnside, who, professed his love to Claire, after being mutated into a huge creature, and killing himself to save her. This is one of the reasons why RECV was better than all the other Resident Evil games, except RE4. If we are to see more games that present all kinds of moods, there's no doubt that this will really make the story and the rest of the game feel a lot better. I think that when too much action is present, this prevents a game at having any mood, much as is seen at times when you're trying to kill a lot of enemies, particulary soldiers, at once. And if more moods can be present, this can really make a game feel realistic, as well as ensure that people will end up less influenced by bad things. If GTA was to have more than just humour, I don't know how it would end up, but if it really showed how dark it is to be a criminal, that would be a lot of help towards having many people notice that it is wrong to be influenced by such.

Here's something that I think is a good example of drama, coming from Mafia (this is the ending for the game):
http://youtube.com/watch?v=IEKeRRpHZPE&feature=related

Perhaps, an example like this, coming from Mafia, shows why it was the best story that has ever gone into a free-roam game, within that of a crime setting.

Note: I've made changes to the first, second, and third post of mine, in this topic, making them shorter and closer to the point, so I hope that you guys will read any one of them again, (most importantly, the first one) if you haven't read them all yet.

InsaneDriver06
12-23-2007, 01:11 PM
Mood of a game is important, and for Driver, a bit of serious mood makes for a great chase. Comedy at every corner is good for GTA, not Driver. Now and then a humorous remark won't hurt.

Mood is fine, but tons of action doesn't hurt either. Consider a game like Earth Defense Force, where literally hundreds of giant ants, alien ships and giant monsters are attacking your squad at once. It's an onslaught like few games deliver. That alone creates the mood of being overwhelmed, as it's pretty exciting stuff turning at every corner, surrounded and slowly blasting your way to survive.

Assault_machine
12-23-2007, 02:49 PM
If you're talking about a game like Earth Defense Force, it is simply just a third-person shooter and while it received a 71% as its ranking from Game Rankings, I don't feel too impressed with it, as a game. Yes, Driver does need more of a serious mood put towards it, but I think that more moods will be necessary as well. Drama would actually be a good way, in some cases, to help make the story feel great, so that is one of its options for a mood.

And when you speak of killing so many things, I'd rather see a lot of action being found in a strategy game or even for a game that us largely focused on being a shooter (and which isn't low quality as that of Earth Defense Force, nor that of Shadowrun). Strategy games truly fit best for viewing thousands of enemies onscreen at once. I think that when you were talking about Earth Defense Force's killing of hundreds of giant ants at once, you kind of exaggerated because a shooter really isn't the kind of game that has delivered so many enemies onscreen. The only titles to deliver so many enemies onscreen are either the strategy or hack n' slash genres.

Driver needs to have a real feel for when in a car chase, being serious for the most part, while the other parts of the game, like on-foot shoot-outs, or anything else, can offer drama, sadness, and all those other moods. The first thing that Driver needs in order to accomplish this is to have the most realistic characters and a very really as well as unique storyline. It should revolve around the main character, the main character's friends and allies, and, of course, around the antagonists of the game. If the cut scenes, dialogue, and gameplay can make the story and characters develop very well, there's no telling as to how far such a game will go. These are the other ways, along that of the mood, which must also be included to help the story feel as a good one.

InsaneDriver06
12-23-2007, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by Assault_machine:
If you're talking about a game like Earth Defense Force, it is simply just a third-person shooter and while it received a 71% as its ranking from Game Rankings, I don't feel too impressed with it, as a game. Yes, Driver does need more of a serious mood put towards it, but I think that more moods will be necessary as well. Drama would actually be a good way, in some cases, to help make the story feel great, so that is one of its options for a mood.

And when you speak of killing so many things, I'd rather see a lot of action being found in a strategy game or even for a game that us largely focused on being a shooter (and which isn't low quality as that of Earth Defense Force, nor that of Shadowrun). Strategy games truly fit best for viewing thousands of enemies onscreen at once. I think that when you were talking about Earth Defense Force's killing of hundreds of giant ants at once, you kind of exaggerated because a shooter really isn't the kind of game that has delivered so many enemies onscreen. The only titles to deliver so many enemies onscreen are either the strategy or hack n' slash genres.

Driver needs to have a real feel for when in a car chase, being serious for the most part, while the other parts of the game, like on-foot shoot-outs, or anything else, can offer drama, sadness, and all those other moods. The first thing that Driver needs in order to accomplish this is to have the most realistic characters and a very really as well as unique storyline. It should revolve around the main character, the main character's friends and allies, and, of course, around the antagonists of the game. If the cut scenes, dialogue, and gameplay can make the story and characters develop very well, there's no telling as to how far such a game will go. These are the other ways, along that of the mood, which must also be included to help the story feel as a good one.

Literally, hundreds of ants onscreen at once, a lot like hundreds of zombies at once in Dead Rising. It's possible on the new systems. But as far as having anything to do with creating mood, they have little to do with Driver.

Not sure if mood has an enduring quality though, like action packed chase scenes do. However, a game like Mass Effect, which is praised for it's "incredible story" more than the gameplay itself, proves a great story can make critics overlook the faults of the gameplay itself(mass effects repetitive planets, poor tank controls, and clumsy cover-shoot tactics among some glitches like pop in and crashing.

Assault_machine
12-23-2007, 09:26 PM
Yes, I did hear that Dead Rising has a lot of zombies on-screen at once. It seems pretty amazing to me, considering that you can use almost anything in the environment to kill them. But Earth Defense Force's enemies, that being ants, really seem like a weak idea for a game. And considering that the other Earth Defense Force games got fair and bad reviews, I'm not impressed by that at all.

I've recently had the chance to, once again, look upon the review on the PC version of Mafia, from the very well known and popular game site, Game Spot. It does give all the good impressions as to what kind of a game it turned out to be. And when looking at it, it just blows both Driver and GTA out of the waters, in terms of realism. Even its physics and damage as well as its models are better than those of the Driver franchise. Also, I've recently looked at DPL's missions, from videos of Bonkergames, over at Youtube.com (since I didn't get the chance to play through the whole game) and I'm very unimpressed by the whole game. Of course, it's safe enough to call it a fair game, but even by saying that, it feels to similar to all the other free-roam games and hardly delivers any more new features to make it a very worthy and enjoyable game. I'll also have a look at the weapons, vehicles, and other objectives found outside of the main storyline to get to know the game better, but just by having seen the storyline, it has already identified to me how the gameplay feels, as well as the controls and sound. It doesn't deliver enough to be a pleasant game. By saying this, I don't think that I'll regard any Driver game as anything that I've ever been able to enjoy, other than the original Driver game, which I still manage to enjoy, up until this time. Oh, and if you want to see the review of Mafia, go here. (http://www.gamespot.com/pc/action/mafia/review.html?om_act=convert&om_clk=gssummary&tag=summary;review)

InsaneDriver06
12-26-2007, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Assault_machine:
Yes, I did hear that Dead Rising has a lot of zombies on-screen at once. It seems pretty amazing to me, considering that you can use almost anything in the environment to kill them. But Earth Defense Force's enemies, that being ants, really seem like a weak idea for a game. And considering that the other Earth Defense Force games got fair and bad reviews, I'm not impressed by that at all.

I've recently had the chance to, once again, look upon the review on the PC version of Mafia, from the very well known and popular game site, Game Spot. It does give all the good impressions as to what kind of a game it turned out to be. And when looking at it, it just blows both Driver and GTA out of the waters, in terms of realism. Even its physics and damage as well as its models are better than those of the Driver franchise. Also, I've recently looked at DPL's missions, from videos of Bonkergames, over at Youtube.com (since I didn't get the chance to play through the whole game) and I'm very unimpressed by the whole game. Of course, it's safe enough to call it a fair game, but even by saying that, it feels to similar to all the other free-roam games and hardly delivers any more new features to make it a very worthy and enjoyable game. I'll also have a look at the weapons, vehicles, and other objectives found outside of the main storyline to get to know the game better, but just by having seen the storyline, it has already identified to me how the gameplay feels, as well as the controls and sound. It doesn't deliver enough to be a pleasant game. By saying this, I don't think that I'll regard any Driver game as anything that I've ever been able to enjoy, other than the original Driver game, which I still manage to enjoy, up until this time. Oh, and if you want to see the review of Mafia,

That's a bit harsh that none of the Driver games are enjoyable beyond part 1, but I understand you've viewing the games from a developers standpoint, with high standards concerning graphics, framerate, gameplay, story, replay value and so on.

Have they made a Mafia 2? Usually sequels indicate the sales figures of a game, big sales equal sequels. Driver 1's solid sales prompted part 2, which did very well in sales to prompt part 3.

The physics of the Driver series are tough to beat in my opinion, if you're looking for a semi-realisitic driving experience with detailed weight transfer and movements. In my opinion, the Driver physics engine is the one to surpass for other racing developers, including Polyphony Digital, which doesn't even include accurate 360 degree turning, but claims its a "real driving simulator", not counting part 5....

Assault_machine
12-28-2007, 04:10 PM
No, Mafia 2 is not out yet. It'll be out likely sometime in 2008, coming out for the PS3, Xbox 360, and PC, but it's trailer has already been presented and it looks impressive in the detail. Hopefully, it will have just as much of a unique storyline as the first game and maybe even having an offering of more freedom to make it feel more than just a linear crime setting experience.

As for Driver's physics, I don't really think that they've been the best so far. NFS and Burnout along with some of GT (not every aspect of it) are just able to do better in the handling of the vehicles. Also, a simulator steering wheel does make GT feel more welcome a real driving simulator. No, it isn't true that all of these franchises have perfected physics, but they sure have done a good job with it. Driv3r's physics were pretty terrible. I'd most consider Driver: You Are The Wheelman's physics as the best for a Driver game and by saying this, it's a rather shame to see no 6th generation Driver game, nor Driver 2 (a 5th generation game) beat the very first Driver game and excel in the "physics department."

InsaneDriver06
12-28-2007, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Assault_machine:
No, Mafia 2 is not out yet. It'll be out likely sometime in 2008, coming out for the PS3, Xbox 360, and PC, but it's trailer has already been presented and it looks impressive in the detail. Hopefully, it will have just as much of a unique storyline as the first game and maybe even having an offering of more freedom to make it feel more than just a linear crime setting experience.

As for Driver's physics, I don't really think that they've been the best so far. NFS and Burnout along with some of GT (not every aspect of it) are just able to do better in the handling of the vehicles. Also, a simulator steering wheel does make GT feel more welcome a real driving simulator. No, it isn't true that all of these franchises have perfected physics, but they sure have done a good job with it. Driv3r's physics were pretty terrible. I'd most consider Driver: You Are The Wheelman's physics as the best for a Driver game and by saying this, it's a rather shame to see no 6th generation Driver game, nor Driver 2 (a 5th generation game) beat the very first Driver game and excel in the "physics department."

By Physics, are you referring to the way the car handles and shifts weight while in motion? I'd say Reflections is the king of it, easily being one of their key strengths and another reason I've been a longtime Driver fan. Driver 2 was slow, but I liked the semi-realistic physics. Driv3r's were good too, it's just that the game was a bit slow, and the steering could've been more responsive as well, especially on sportbikes.

Assault_machine
01-01-2008, 02:24 PM
Driv3r's physics were not very impressive, mainly because of the little improvement the game ended up as being and its glitches made it look even worse. Driver: Parallel Lines was actually a bit better, but I'd say that Driver had the best physics out of all the Driver games. And because the Driver series hasn't been pushing its features very much further, I'd say that the physics, overall, too, are one of those aspects that could've been done better. And one of the main aspects of having to do with physics I'd say is that the speed doesn't go any further than certain types of games. Of course, you do have to admit that when weather is present (usually rain) and when it is time to make a sharp turn, or even when you've got to use driving skills to help get away from the cops, Driver handles it very well. Other than that, I think that GT is the best at it because it tries more to simulate it than any other game out there. And because simulation adds even more realism, it means that the GT franchise has been doing the best at it. Besides, I don't think that we can regard any other racing game any more of an impact than the original GT game itself, which, on Game Rankings, is the highest rated racing game of all-time.

Driverman2006
01-01-2008, 03:43 PM
D:PL's physics were the best! They felt very realistic. Although on the Wii version, you can't hold the accelerator at a constant speed (on the PS2 and XBOX versions you can). That's because the accelerator button on the Wii version is the Z button (or C for breaking and reversing). This makes accelerating either "On" or "Off". I would've made the analog stick on the Wii the accelerator. This way the Wii version would feel more realistic, but the handbrake is more fun on the Wii version than anyother version for sure!


I don't mind if the next Driver is another "GTA Clone". In fact, I highly support that. I just hope it ain't another "GTA Ripoff". See the difference?

JacksonL2007
01-02-2008, 11:54 AM
Originally posted by Driverman2006:
D:PL's physics were the best! They felt very realistic. Although on the Wii version, you can't hold the accelerator at a constant speed (on the PS2 and XBOX versions you can). That's because the accelerator button on the Wii version is the Z button (or C for breaking and reversing). This makes accelerating either "On" or "Off". I would've made the analog stick on the Wii the accelerator. This way the Wii version would feel more realistic, but the handbrake is more fun on the Wii version than anyother version for sure!


I don't mind if the next Driver is another "GTA Clone". In fact, I highly support that. I just hope it ain't another "GTA Ripoff". See the difference?

finally somebody gets it

InsaneDriver06
01-02-2008, 07:21 PM
One thing I really don't want to see in the new Driver: Pedestrians that make humorous remarks everytime you pass by them. It not only gets repetitive and annoying, but it's a total GTA ripoff, a bit like DPL's pedestrians. Of course, they still were better than the "hey" pedestrians from Driv3r, who pretty much kept saying "hey" every two seconds.

Assault_machine
01-06-2008, 07:46 PM
Hahaha. I really never noticed that about the pedestrians in D3, mainly because I don't pay attention to those things, but you can say that this was one of the things that made its AI look extremely bad.

As for the next Driver game being a "GTA clone," it'd have to offer lots of improvements to be sure that it would be worth buying or even playing. To me, the realistic scope for a crime setting, either being centered around a cop or a gangster just feels really weak, other than for those most successful games, such as the GTA franchise, the Mafia franchise, and even for the Saint's Row franchise. They've truly proven that being a gangster is a highly enjoyable experience. However, sooner or later, we'll need to see more of the kinds of games that are about offering you to play as both sides, good and bad, while differentiating them and making them both unique as well as lots in variety to keep you busy, both for exploring the worlds and to play through the storylines.

The crime setting in the free-roam genre has started to grow more boresome than that of the other genres, but that's not a surprise as most developers only have tried to replicate what Rockstar North's works were like (the GTA franchise) and failed to make any improvements over its formula. It's just like looking at certain movie genres, such being the buddy cop movies or even the cop movies themselves, which are sub-genres of Action. On the other hand, gangster/crime films, which set the main character(s) as being criminals, have actually continued to do well in driving the plot forward. I guess that it's just more interesting to see what a gangster is thinking than what a cop is thinking, knowing that we see cops around more often than any criminal activities. Sadly, the car chase sub-genre, too, has declined. Bullitt, The French Connection, Dukes of Hazzard, Miami Vice, and a few others, are the only really great ones that have been around. And knowing that today many movies don't involve car chases as being a large part of the movie, it makes the experience all the more repetitive. By saying this, we need not only both sides, but we need something that stretches further than your average cop or gangster. After all, there are various other ways to make a world open-ended and this can surely be done with many other genres as well. I guess one of the problems of the free-roam genre and the crime setting is that most of them take place in the modern times and nothing in either the ancient, medieval, pre-modern (after medieval times), or even any futuristic settings. In the end, developers are capable of driving a modern setting's open-ended city forward, but it's that more of a struggle for them, as they try to bring it to becoming more life-like as possible. Lets hope that we'll see other settings to be pleased with soon, other than always modern ones for this genre and that developers won't try to create realism as the main aspect for new gameplay. It needs to go further than that. Fiction, too, must be considered an option, in certain cases.

InsaneDriver06
01-07-2008, 10:05 AM
A game centered around a Driver is a good role for the game. Someone who's main goal is to drive vehicles, really well in an attempt to evade police, pursue other cars, win first place in arena racing and demolition derby.

Assault_machine
01-08-2008, 03:29 PM
I hope that we'll see more crime games, even free-roaming ones, in other time periods. It grows very old fast when you have so many developers working on one time period. It feels like the modern setting is the only one acceptable, but many people have different preferences. For instance, there are a lot of RPG fans, so they love either sci-fi or fantasy, two settings that are found the most common in that genre while others like Western settings, Modern settings, and so forth, and so on. But keeping only the modern setting as the focus is, in my opinion, unacceptable. I'd love to take a break from the idea of this modern era that we live in and go to a different era. It would feel more refreshing, knowing that we're just experiencing the very basic things that we have of our world today. In some instances, I actually consider fantasy and science fiction to be better than the rest of the genres for games. We definitely need another game like Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion for a fantasy open-ended game, a game like either Mass Effect or even Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic, except that the titles found in the same genre (as either being fantasy or science fiction) can really move the freedom of players forward, such that Rockstar North is capable of.

Of course driving is a good role, as is the role of being a driver. After all, that is the title of the Driver franchise. I'm just tired of so many things that we've seen from the franchise. There is hardly any improvements on either the driving or on-foot portions at all. And, usually, whenever there are any improvements, these improvements are already existing ones. Why can't we be able to see something more, such as some of the finest detail a game could ever see, along with little or no glitches at all (something that Driv3r couldn't make possible, but GT5 may indeed achieve)? Why can't the enemies be a lot smarter? I just suppose it's the fact that there are going to be a lot of problems around the Driver franchise and centered around other free-roam games (even GTA games) because free-roaming, as a genre, hasn't been around for long, nor do the majority of developers find interest in it for the time being.

InsaneDriver06
01-08-2008, 08:38 PM
I think Driver needs to be less about killing bad guys and more about great chases, in car or truck, on sportbike, and a few cool on foot chases. A little gunplay won't hurt either on foot.

The story's important, but the gameplay of Driving, is kind of like the sports genre; stock car racing, gran turismo, or open city racers like Midnight Club LA. Story comes second IMO unless they make it so good it can't be ignored.

PennySillin
01-08-2008, 09:31 PM
I'm no fan of following the story either, thats why I usually only play games where you can do anything anytime. If the missions are fun, then I'm in, but the poor AI and not so great on foot controls take away from it.

One of my biggest gripes with fps games is they never seem to get the aiming right on. I don't know if its just not possible with the sticks, but I can never aim directly at what I want to shoot. Do these games take into account the short, quick tap of the R3 stick, or do they only measure the distance you moved it? It seems to be the latter.

It should be relatively easy to quickly tap the button and have the cursor aimed at the enemy, while running any direction. At least thats what I think. I've never shot a real gun, but this is a game and it should be easier to aim. Not too easy.

InsaneDriver06
01-08-2008, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by PennySillin:
I'm no fan of following the story either, thats why I usually only play games where you can do anything anytime. If the missions are fun, then I'm in, but the poor AI and not so great on foot controls take away from it.

One of my biggest gripes with fps games is they never seem to get the aiming right on. I don't know if its just not possible with the sticks, but I can never aim directly at what I want to shoot. Do these games take into account the short, quick tap of the R3 stick, or do they only measure the distance you moved it? It seems to be the latter.

It should be relatively easy to quickly tap the button and have the cursor aimed at the enemy, while running any direction. At least thats what I think. I've never shot a real gun, but this is a game and it should be easier to aim. Not too easy.

A few games offer the option to control the sensitivity of vertical, horizontal motion with a parameter bar. Auto targeting is a tough one, as most games screw it up somehow. A game should definitely offer FPS view along with the option to aim over the shoulder, or in 3rd person for the best gamer response.

GTASA and under never got the auto aiming right without a gun fight turning into a frustrating mess at times when too many enemies showed up.

PennySillin
01-09-2008, 07:12 AM
It seems like changing the sensitivity never does anything though. Halo was pretty good with auto-aiming, but I think it should be easy to do on your own still.

I forgot too, a big problem is that most games don't let you turn fast enough anyway. In real life you could do an about face in a split second, in a game you can get lit up in the time it takes.

Also, another thing I hate is when the enemy gets too close, they're standing on almost the same spot your character is on, and you can't aim at them. OOH I hate that! It sucks worse in first person mode because you can't see them anymore. This is a problem I see in nearly every game, whats up with that? This should have been fixed long ago.

Back to look sensitivity, when I want to turn really fast, I toggle to that side as hard as I can. If theres a way to measure how much force is behind a toggle, and then translate that to the game, that would be the best I think.

InsaneDriver06
01-10-2008, 06:59 PM
Yeah, games often just put in a flat movement with maybe two levels of set points that automatically go from slow to fast: walks to runs for example.

Better sensitivity on the analogs would improve control.

kalle90
01-11-2008, 05:06 PM
GTA1 was pizza topping. Driver1 was actual driving and Driver2 added the walk. GTA3 brought weapons and Driver3 did eventually bring them too. Now they are the same. So whos copying who.

Physics, escpecially cars clearly go to Driver. As well as overall graphics. On foot controls and AI are pretty horrible in both. Driver gets the score of "civilized and good tasted story and gameplay" GTA is too humorous and unrealistic. Only thing i want to "cloned" is The Radio and then take it further with TVs, conversations, abilility to sit...

PennySillin
01-11-2008, 07:06 PM
I like the humor found in GTA, it shows they don't take themselves too seriously.

Taking yourself too seriously makes you hold yourself back from doing fun stuff. Driver (from what I can remember) has never had a sense of humor (though I rarely played undercover so I might've missed something).

Humor lets you see your own downsides, making fun of your own self, so you can fix whats not working well..

Aw **** it this is a gay post anyway

PennySillin
01-13-2008, 11:44 AM
To me, GTA is not very far ahead of Driver in fun. Really when you look at it, theres not a whole lot more interaction going on in GTA, theres just more stuff. More stuff to collect, more vehicles (wider variety) to drive, and thats all good, but it will only get you so far.

Every game just adds more stuff, but theres nothing any more interesting to do with it than the last game

InsaneDriver06
01-13-2008, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by PennySillin:
To me, GTA is not very far ahead of Driver in fun. Really when you look at it, theres not a whole lot more interaction going on in GTA, theres just more stuff. More stuff to collect, more vehicles (wider variety) to drive, and thats all good, but it will only get you so far.

Every game just adds more stuff, but theres nothing any more interesting to do with it than the last game

Great point. I'd say we need more opportunities for stunts as a start. More chances to hit ramps that launch you clear over heavy traffic while the cops get stuck behind. More driving excitement, less GTA "junk".

Can Reflections make the chases in Driver so intense, they get your heart pounding? That's the kind of gameplay excitement I'm hoping Reflections delivers this time.

PennySillin
01-13-2008, 06:15 PM
On the whole ramps, I want ramps that go over small rivers, or like the Stuntman bridge ramp (give us a corkscrew or ten)

Thats a tough one (heart pounding action). If it can be done (probably), I'd say go for it. But for me, when I'm playing any of these games, I've rarely felt my heart pound for more than a few beats, maybe the games just aren't that intense, but I think it would be really hard to have that come across in a videogame constantly.

InsaneDriver06
01-13-2008, 08:52 PM
I think when everything's on the line, and you know you HAVE to escape, things get intense. Take the last mission in Driver 1 for example. You had to reach the garage on the other side of NYC. The lightning fast, super ramming cop cars had an unfair advantage. If you made it farther than you got before the 100th retry, I remember my heart beating faster, thinking "This could be the time I finally finish this ridiculously cheap-shot mission!". But it was exciting nonetheless.

I'd like the cops to be tough through speed and smarts, not through super-powered cop cars. In other words, they could have a car just as good as your own, but still be tough to shake.

PennySillin
01-14-2008, 07:32 AM
Well sure, in undercover mode it is way more nerve racking (If I was rich I would've smashed a lot of TV's and PS1's)

But how do you bring that intensity to free roam?

The only way that ever happens for me is if I've got a perfect chase going on, sliding around corners, narrowly missing light poles, traffic, cops on my tail the whole time nearly pitting my car.

So the cops would need to be really close. I'd say the overpowered cop cars make it more interesting actually, because you never know which one is gonna ram you big time, you're just hoping its not the one 2 feet off your bumper.

kalle90
01-14-2008, 07:50 AM
Originally posted by PennySillin:
Well sure, in undercover mode it is way more nerve racking (If I was rich I would've smashed a lot of TV's and PS1's)

But how do you bring that intensity to free roam?

The only way that ever happens for me is if I've got a perfect chase going on, sliding around corners, narrowly missing light poles, traffic, cops on my tail the whole time nearly pitting my car.

So the cops would need to be really close. I'd say the overpowered cop cars make it more interesting actually, because you never know which one is gonna ram you big time, you're just hoping its not the one 2 feet off your bumper.

If my Felony meter is full there definetly should be more than 2 to 4 Police cars chasing me. If i have killed 100s of people and caused enormous damage to property and cars police really should want to get me. Maybe even bring rocket launchers if I get way too bad. It would be really hard to get away.

InsaneDriver06
01-14-2008, 11:00 AM
Cops racing in from the side intersections could cause some serious impacts without having the "super-cop cars" seen in Driver 1.

PennySillin
01-14-2008, 05:22 PM
Good point kalle, the cops use the same level of aggressive behavior no matter how much you've done.

It would be almost doomsday-ish if say, you were on such a killing spree, that the cops shut down the streets, streets would be empty except for parked cars and roadblocks. You have to see how long you can hold off the sting, SWAT, even military, approaching from every angle with all their non-lethal (and lethal) weaponry.

If the AI was good, that could be really cool. Survival mode on foot.

Or a dooms-day cheat where burned out cars litter the roadway, fugitive mode to the max, everyone has weapons, streets are usually empty, occasionally people come running outside to go to another building

InsaneDriver06
01-14-2008, 06:36 PM
No matter how much trouble you got into, it never advanced past cop cars. That's one thing I really liked about Driver 1, 2 and 3. DPL threw in swat, helicopters and FBI to nearly instantly end the fun with a hail of bullets.

I want to face off against the best drivers in the police force, not the best gunners. Anybody can shoot out a tire to end a chase. Driver's chases should be about ramming cars into submission, not shooting them out of commission.

PennySillin
01-14-2008, 07:09 PM
Also a good point. Something I do need to point out now that you mention it, I only want SWAT or anything higher than that to come when you are on foot

Other than that, it should just be cop cars chasing you. I too hated the huge, clumsy SWAT trucks, and especially hated the helicopter with a machine gun. Or any gun at all.

driver_madness
01-15-2008, 02:44 AM
My first 30 seconds of playing Driver: Parallel Lines was awesome and then I lost the cops forever.

You don't just lose the cops that easily.

Particularity when there at least four cops chasing me in the first 30seconds.

In the first 30seconds.

There was a cop chasing me from behind, "He crashed into that taxi" Note: wasn't gameplay but was exciting.

Then I got to control with another cop chasing me. Then I got down to Central Park where cops come from both ends and try to get in my way. I used the break "PRESSED it HARD" and turned around them.

I drove along the side of Central Park weaving between traffic at very high speeds and started the lose the cops.

Boooring, keeps those cops on me http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

kalle90
01-15-2008, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
No matter how much trouble you got into, it never advanced past cop cars. That's one thing I really liked about Driver 1, 2 and 3. DPL threw in swat, helicopters and FBI to nearly instantly end the fun with a hail of bullets.

I want to face off against the best drivers in the police force, not the best gunners. Anybody can shoot out a tire to end a chase. Driver's chases should be about ramming cars into submission, not shooting them out of commission.

But remember. Swat and alike would come only after judgement day like destruction. Maybe the Felony meter should fill lot more slower. Sure Police should start to chase me after first law breaking, but maybe half of meter could mean the usual familiar heavy police car chase. Meter would be full only after some serious rampage. Somehow the unexpectancy of on foot police, helicopters and such makes it all more exciting and interesting. If worst that can happen is roadblocks and 4 police cars chasing me it gets boring, either it's too easy or too hard. Sure tougher forces shouldn't come after first civilian shot. And if you manage to get to hideout or something else resetting then it Felony meter would be empty.

And think realism. No city or country would let someone massacare thousands of civilians and destroy all property by just sending few police patrols. On the other hand, it's really hard to achieve such with only driving a car, how often SWAT is sent after wreckless driver speeding? Not often. On foot you are much bigger issue using grenades and rifles killing anyone you see.

And i really like the idea of Dooms day cheat. Much better than the stupid pederestian weapon thing where people are shooting me out of nowhere.

PennySillin
01-15-2008, 05:33 PM
An add-on to the doomsday cheat, there would be animals in the streets occasionally, like dobermans, maybe even escaped zoo animals

InsaneDriver06
01-16-2008, 09:01 AM
Originally posted by kalle90:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
No matter how much trouble you got into, it never advanced past cop cars. That's one thing I really liked about Driver 1, 2 and 3. DPL threw in swat, helicopters and FBI to nearly instantly end the fun with a hail of bullets.

I want to face off against the best drivers in the police force, not the best gunners. Anybody can shoot out a tire to end a chase. Driver's chases should be about ramming cars into submission, not shooting them out of commission.

But remember. Swat and alike would come only after judgement day like destruction. Maybe the Felony meter should fill lot more slower. Sure Police should start to chase me after first law breaking, but maybe half of meter could mean the usual familiar heavy police car chase. Meter would be full only after some serious rampage. Somehow the unexpectancy of on foot police, helicopters and such makes it all more exciting and interesting. If worst that can happen is roadblocks and 4 police cars chasing me it gets boring, either it's too easy or too hard. Sure tougher forces shouldn't come after first civilian shot. And if you manage to get to hideout or something else resetting then it Felony meter would be empty.

And think realism. No city or country would let someone massacare thousands of civilians and destroy all property by just sending few police patrols. On the other hand, it's really hard to achieve such with only driving a car, how often SWAT is sent after wreckless driver speeding? Not often. On foot you are much bigger issue using grenades and rifles killing anyone you see.

And i really like the idea of Dooms day cheat. Much better than the stupid pederestian weapon thing where people are shooting me out of nowhere. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm picturing the Blue Brother's Movie, where 20+ cop cars are after one car. That would be a great chase.

"That's enough of your fun! Blam!" says the Swat guy as he blows up your car. Game Over. I want the chase to go on, despite the vehicle destruction. Realistic? No. For the sake of longer chases that aren't ended by bullets.

JacksonL2007
01-16-2008, 09:42 AM
The Blues Brothers is a good example of a car chases, amazing stunts.

Now i liked the swat vans but only when im in gun play however whenever i'm driving they can't catch up with me, so its just the squad cars which is good. Helicopters where $hit because you couldn't dirve them so there only purpose was to use a machine gun and blow you to f*uck. In the new driver I want swat they way they were, arnt attacking me unless im on foot. I want police helicopters to chase me only if im driving a helicopter.

kalle90
01-16-2008, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kalle90:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
No matter how much trouble you got into, it never advanced past cop cars. That's one thing I really liked about Driver 1, 2 and 3. DPL threw in swat, helicopters and FBI to nearly instantly end the fun with a hail of bullets.

I want to face off against the best drivers in the police force, not the best gunners. Anybody can shoot out a tire to end a chase. Driver's chases should be about ramming cars into submission, not shooting them out of commission.

But remember. Swat and alike would come only after judgement day like destruction. Maybe the Felony meter should fill lot more slower. Sure Police should start to chase me after first law breaking, but maybe half of meter could mean the usual familiar heavy police car chase. Meter would be full only after some serious rampage. Somehow the unexpectancy of on foot police, helicopters and such makes it all more exciting and interesting. If worst that can happen is roadblocks and 4 police cars chasing me it gets boring, either it's too easy or too hard. Sure tougher forces shouldn't come after first civilian shot. And if you manage to get to hideout or something else resetting then it Felony meter would be empty.

And think realism. No city or country would let someone massacare thousands of civilians and destroy all property by just sending few police patrols. On the other hand, it's really hard to achieve such with only driving a car, how often SWAT is sent after wreckless driver speeding? Not often. On foot you are much bigger issue using grenades and rifles killing anyone you see.

And i really like the idea of Dooms day cheat. Much better than the stupid pederestian weapon thing where people are shooting me out of nowhere. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm picturing the Blue Brother's Movie, where 20+ cop cars are after one car. That would be a great chase.

"That's enough of your fun! Blam!" says the Swat guy as he blows up your car. Game Over. I want the chase to go on, despite the vehicle destruction. Realistic? No. For the sake of longer chases that aren't ended by bullets. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

But really, how many cars it's possible to have chasing us while still keeping all civilian traffic and pederestians there, lag and glitch free? Sure even 50 cars would be fun, but...

Police would be the huge main force, but seeing some Swat wans, motorbike police, special agency like FBI (Like police but more durable and faster), Helicopters would make amazing scenery. 1 FBI car(Driving next to you and trying to push you out of road) leading 4 Police cars followed by 2 SWAT vans (Slower but well armed so you don't want to stop) chasing me while Helicopters observes me in the sky. Now that's tense. And all the on foot forces would be equipped by the seriousness of crimes.

I just don't see why not. While you'd be driving a car you couldn't anyway easily attract Swat or army to come after you. Just like the chase videos, usually the guy is just speeding or driving dangerously, not killing 1000s of people and crushing everything. That way driving would be pretty much the same, but shooting wouldn't be as boring police shooting. Sure driving has always been the base and most important part of Driver, but I like the overall more, if the walking would be made better.

InsaneDriver06
01-18-2008, 10:09 AM
If it's handled more realistically compared to GTA's five star leveling with tanks and instant death, then it might work if it allows you to drive, get shot at and keep going without getting your tires shot out often if at all.

You can avoid every cop car from pitting or ramming your expensive, highly tuned and powerful vehicle, but it only takes one bullet to take out your tire and the chase is pretty much ended in the car you put so much work into. That's what I'm afraid will happen again with Swat, guns and helicopters.

In Car, the vehicle is the weapon.
When On Foot, weapons allowed by both sides. Like a code of honor almost, where the cops won't shoot at your car for the sake of a great chase. Not realistic, but fun.

kalle90
01-18-2008, 10:28 AM
I think Police shooting tires in D3 was horrible. Survival was over usually in 30 seconds when my tires were gone. Unfun.

Driver is overall very realistic, atleast compared to GTA, and i really like that fact. This would be realistic too, of course. Perhaps even loosening Felony rate. Maybe tanks and full army would enter the game after 10 000 kill strike? Forces should also appear lineary, first there's 1 FBI car accompaning police, then later 2nd, 3rd. Not just simple Police, Swat, Army rating.

Are you concerned about losing the car to car chases? I don't want them to become rocket matches either. If I spend entire game in car it's really hard to achieve that big felony, but on foot it is very possible. And if I have done great massacare on foot before entering vehicle I would have the huge special force armies chasing me with rifles and grenades.

PennySillin
01-18-2008, 07:10 PM
10000 kills? I remember once looking at my stats in GTA3, I had 9000 kills and had been playing for a few months - with the cheat codes.

I think if you kill anybody they should crack down hard on you. And I do run over lots of pedestrians, but I find that annoying, they should run and be a challenge to hit, but it should still be possible to hit them.

kalle90
01-19-2008, 04:57 AM
10 000 was rough estimate. I haven't ever calculated my one single playtime kills. Driver5 likely has more traffic than GTA3 so there's some truth in increasing kill count. I admit 10 000 is still too much, unless I can blow up entire skyscrapers.

Maybe 1000 then? It's the army and tanks! They shouldn't come after 20 kills. Only when it's confirmed that any normal or special police can't handle me. In GTA felony rating goes higher before I have really done anything, so it's practically always either no felony or army.

Felony meter has always been mix of all laws I break from speeding to killing police (killing some people like police is worse than killing some others). It should stay that way. So it wouldn't require just 1000 kills to get army, it would mix of all. Meter would be lot slower to fill up than it is now. Driving away the police only breaking speed limits and red lights without crashing or bumbing to anything shouldn't make felony big.

Civilians are bit stupid and weak, but I think it will be too much to ask for physical and melee combat system now. Something True Crimish would be useful, people rip me from car, fight, shoot (not everyone has weapon) and I have same abilities. There's now the criminals shooting me, but the huge majority is just weak.

driver_madness
01-19-2008, 05:28 AM
I think I've been able to get the army onto me in less than a couple of minutes.

I at least think in driver as mentioned above it should be approached more realistically.

1 kill in public (or herd by anyone)
-Cop comes to investigate

2 herd kills
-Cops come quicker

If a cop sees someone killing someone or someone runs who they suspected killed someone, they automatically call for backup.

If you continue killing people,:
-Cops can only come when there available.

Anyways, if you started killing people in public would the army be alerted straight away. If the game was realistic enough the cops should be able to kill you before that stage anyrate.

PennySillin
01-19-2008, 06:29 AM
Really all I want is police cars to chase me, and someone on foot to chase me with guns, who can close down a block (with barricades and crowds of onlookers, news), set up snipers (if the rampage is enough, 20 people is a bit much still), helicopters circling the sky (without guns, maybe if theres a gunner sitting in the door that we can pick off, watch them fall out)

SWAT would be rushing in, how about hostage situations (just push one button, or a combo and everybody gets down)?

Now that would be some good on foot action

driver_madness
01-19-2008, 06:38 AM
Before we start to master the onfoot side we MUST first master the driving stuff. So worry about on-foot stuff later on in development so you can focus on getting the driving action perfect first.

So if you run out of time and ubisoft force you to release it early like atari did, although 99.99% unlikely.

No one can complain about it being GTA like because the driving is a million times more awesome than GTA.

Although I think the driving in all Driver Games is a million times more awesome than the driving in any GTA game.

PennySillin
01-19-2008, 09:05 AM
driving action is important but so is on foot. I think they could handle working on both at the same time.

All the driving needs really is for cops to keep up and be more aggressive like the first game, and give us a wider variety of places to drive than streets and a few parks, and the ability for awesome crashes

The on foot needs the most work

kalle90
01-19-2008, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by PennySillin:
Really all I want is police cars to chase me, and someone on foot to chase me with guns, who can close down a block (with barricades and crowds of onlookers, news), set up snipers (if the rampage is enough, 20 people is a bit much still), helicopters circling the sky (without guns, maybe if theres a gunner sitting in the door that we can pick off, watch them fall out)

SWAT would be rushing in, how about hostage situations (just push one button, or a combo and everybody gets down)?

Now that would be some good on foot action

20 is much? I don't know exact number but I have killed 100s of people many times even without cheats and just the same small police force is chasing me.

There's no explanation why army would come in couple of minutes. I don't say game should be simulation, but some sense would be spectacular, no army after 5 kills. Entire army should be unbelievable unlikely to arrive, the ultimate challenge. Police is still the funnest and best force, spice that with some special agents and SWAT and there will be fun moments.

I think driving has always been Drivers amazing part and so I don't know how much it should be improved. Game is as good as it's worst part is. I love driving, but sometimes I want to get out and rather not be stiff and ******ed guy fighting against ******s. Something like True Crime on foot would be fine for starters, pretty good movement and hand to hand combat, plus even casual walk seems real with real like people around me. Some sort of mix from Splinter Cell (Flexability, movement and actions like human shield), True Crime (Hand to Hand Combat) and Max Payne (Shooting) would be neat.

PennySillin
01-19-2008, 06:45 PM
I agree the army shouldn't come at all, or at least for a while. I just think police aggressiveness should increase very rapidly after killing somebody, no matter what felony level

driver_madness
01-19-2008, 06:51 PM
Originally posted by PennySillin:
driving action is important but so is on foot. I think they could handle working on both at the same time.

All the driving needs really is for cops to keep up and be more aggressive like the first game, and give us a wider variety of places to drive than streets and a few parks, and the ability for awesome crashes

The on foot needs the most work


I achually like on-foot it makes the game feel less limited to what you can do. But I believe nothing much has to be done with it considering it isn't "The Getaway", or "GTA'.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you want on-foot action go buy The Getaway or GTA. Those titles were purely meant for both on-foot and driving from day one.

and driver deserves the on-foot action so you can shoot-up cars cars with your weapons and change cars. That's the basis and that's all we really need.

The better on-foot is the more players will end up being on-foot. The more players are on-foot the more this game will be considered a GTA Clone even though it never will be and it never was. It just had a similarity.

But at the end of the day this game is primarily a driving game and the developers really need to improve on the car chases.

I liked NFS: Most Wanted where you could haven the cops on you for a good 30mins, a really exciting chase. That;s what driver needs rather than a silly couple of minutes chase or have a lot of cops on you and suddenly losing them. In reality that just isn't possible.

InsaneDriver06
01-19-2008, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by driver_madness:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PennySillin:
driving action is important but so is on foot. I think they could handle working on both at the same time.

All the driving needs really is for cops to keep up and be more aggressive like the first game, and give us a wider variety of places to drive than streets and a few parks, and the ability for awesome crashes

The on foot needs the most work


I achually like on-foot it makes the game feel less limited to what you can do. But I believe nothing much has to be done with it considering it isn't "The Getaway", or "GTA'.

I guess what I'm trying to say is if you want on-foot action go buy The Getaway or GTA. Those titles were purely meant for both on-foot and driving from day one.

and driver deserves the on-foot action so you can shoot-up cars cars with your weapons and change cars. That's the basis and that's all we really need.

The better on-foot is the more players will end up being on-foot. The more players are on-foot the more this game will be considered a GTA Clone even though it never will be and it never was. It just had a similarity.

But at the end of the day this game is primarily a driving game and the developers really need to improve on the car chases.

I liked NFS: Most Wanted where you could haven the cops on you for a good 30mins, a really exciting chase. That;s what driver needs rather than a silly couple of minutes chase or have a lot of cops on you and suddenly losing them. In reality that just isn't possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good points about longer chases in Driver. I'd like an epic 1 hour chase, but that won't happen till Driver moves beyond the "car health meter" where minor scrapes and dents somehow damage your engine, putting the car out of order. Serious front end damage or tire misalignments would be two main ways to end a chase.

On Foot should at least allow some climbing(fences, ledges, ladders, rocks, etc) and jumping especially. Without that, there's not much reason to explore on foot that a motorcycle or narrow car couldn't achieve.

PennySillin
01-19-2008, 11:32 PM
Yeah except the on foot really sucks in both The Getaway and GTA, and nobody shows signs of improvement

As for longer chases I say no, we just need better chases

kalle90
01-20-2008, 10:14 AM
Yeah, walking really sucks in most of those free roam games. True Crime is only that works, althought it has some serious problems too.

It's no excuse to have no to crappy on foot just because game's name is Driver. Driver 2 was lot better than 1, but stiff and completely undead feeling zombie is not fun, it shouldn't be just for changing cars. Especially when it would be so easy to make it great. Splinter Cell style realistic flexible movement with crouching, jumping, climbing etc. True Crime stylish melee with multiple attacks, counters, throws, all fights feel realistic. And Max Payne style sensitive, accurate and quick shooting. That would make Driver stand up from mass, althought we don't know what GTA4 will be.

Second. Realistically police would chase me until they catch me. That wouldn't be fun. The health meter should replaced with realistic choice, and radar should be realistic too. Just because cops view reach me behind some building they shouldn't start to chase me. People should have realistic eye view, and helicopter be only thing that might never lose me. If I could hide police realistically by going to some alley and really losing my tail, not making them break or crash it could work.

driver_madness
01-20-2008, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by kalle90:
It's no excuse to have no to crappy on foot just because game's name is Driver. Driver 2 was lot better than 1, but stiff and completely undead feeling zombie is not fun, it shouldn't be just for changing cars. Especially when it would be so easy to make it great. Splinter Cell style realistic flexible movement with crouching, jumping, climbing etc. True Crime stylish melee with multiple attacks, counters, throws, all fights feel realistic. And Max Payne style sensitive, accurate and quick shooting. That would make Driver stand up from mass, althought we don't know what GTA4 will be.

and if we went back to the day driver first existed we would all realize it isn't on-foot which makes the game sell so well.

Driver 1 had no on-foot and everyone enjoyed that game.

Driver 2 had it small style, the need to switch cars and push buttons. That's all be ever needed. Many people liked this game but didn't like it as much as Driver 1.

Driver 3, I thought it was an awesome game. Had on-foot with shooting and no one liked it. Maybe they couldn't see through some of the glitches.
Here we had swimming and jumping.

Driver: Parallel Lines
they took swimming and jumping out.
and left everything else they had in driv3r and many people liked this game.

There is kind of a patten there, don't over do on-foot we don't want to be using more than 95% of the game because we MUST still remember this is a driving game.

I pretty much like having on-foot and don't want to see it removed. I just believable reflections should focusing on getting the driving right!

InsaneDriver06
01-20-2008, 07:09 PM
On Foot has no real point beyond shooting and stealing cars in a game about driving. Until they give you a real reason to go on foot (great abilities, control, gameplay on par with the top shooters), and then it becomes a shooter/driver hybrid.

On foot or not, can't win with fans either way. In that case, make on foot if included, the best it can be, but make the driving more appealing than on foot.

Maybe on foot should be featureless like Driver 2. Walk and steal cars might be enough really, so the focus stays on Driving, the real strength of the series. ???

PennySillin
01-20-2008, 10:12 PM
Have you guys lost your minds?

Its not the on foot that made everyone hate the game, its that no effort was put into it.

People didn't like Driver 2 because the slow choppy framerate, and because all you could do on foot was change cars and press a few buttons. You could explore, but it was a major waste of time

Sure, some people couldn't see past the glitches in D3. To me, they made the game better, more interesting with how you could manipulate them. If someone was turned off by the fact they fell through the ground once and took the game back to the store, they were looking for reasons to hate the game anyway.

The on foot in D3 is the best I'd say, mainly because the controls. They do need some work, but they're years ahead of DPL. D3 was just boring all around though. First off, empty streets don't help a car chase game. Add on top of that the horrible AI of cops/gangsters. Slow top speeds, boring music, bland atmosphere, no exploration necessary. All they gave us here was Timmies..

DPL was the first improvement in driving since the first game. Higher top speeds, plenty of traffic, practically glued to the motorcycles. On foot controls took 2 steps back, cops aren't very aggressive in car or out, can't keep up in the chases, annoying helicopter police, more colorful graphics, but less detail (D3 had good detail). Still no reason to explore, this time we got stars that were canceled out by cheats you could find online without having to find the stars.

So really the only pattern here is DON'T UNDER-DO THE ON FOOT. We've been served raw chicken for too long, and I'm tired of the squirts.. and blindness..

kalle90
01-21-2008, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by driver_madness:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kalle90:
It's no excuse to have no to crappy on foot just because game's name is Driver. Driver 2 was lot better than 1, but stiff and completely undead feeling zombie is not fun, it shouldn't be just for changing cars. Especially when it would be so easy to make it great. Splinter Cell style realistic flexible movement with crouching, jumping, climbing etc. True Crime stylish melee with multiple attacks, counters, throws, all fights feel realistic. And Max Payne style sensitive, accurate and quick shooting. That would make Driver stand up from mass, althought we don't know what GTA4 will be.

and if we went back to the day driver first existed we would all realize it isn't on-foot which makes the game sell so well.

Driver 1 had no on-foot and everyone enjoyed that game.

Driver 2 had it small style, the need to switch cars and push buttons. That's all be ever needed. Many people liked this game but didn't like it as much as Driver 1.

Driver 3, I thought it was an awesome game. Had on-foot with shooting and no one liked it. Maybe they couldn't see through some of the glitches.
Here we had swimming and jumping.

Driver: Parallel Lines
they took swimming and jumping out.
and left everything else they had in driv3r and many people liked this game.

There is kind of a patten there, don't over do on-foot we don't want to be using more than 95% of the game because we MUST still remember this is a driving game.

I pretty much like having on-foot and don't want to see it removed. I just believable reflections should focusing on getting the driving right! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would people buy GTA4 as bird eye view game. Doubt that. Driver1 was great because it first introduced free roam in 3D, but people want progress.

Driver 2 was same, but better driving on curved streets etc. There's not much difference to Driver1, except ability to walk, as ugly, slow, clumsy guy. It was great addition, but it could have been so much more. Game is as good as it's weakest link. Halo 3 is great, but people are ready to throw it to wall because of its melee system. Both walking and driving are pretty horrible in GTA, but they are in great harmony and feel complete. Driver has amazing driving and horrible walking, no sense of completion. Improving walking would make GTA bite the dust.

Driver 3 was better, but it still had huge problems.

Do you argue about this because you rather have driving game than amazing game? Gran Turismo and F1s are real driving games where ability to leave car would be useless. But although Driver is named Driver on foot is still really essential part of it's criminal stories. Especially when it's nothing impossible to make it great. I want perfect driving, and on foot. If you want to drive, althought there would be better on foot, you can do it. Sure majority of missions could be driving, but I don't want bad on foot ruin the rest of them, or the entire Take a ride mode.

PennySillin
01-21-2008, 06:45 AM
Thank god I'm not the only one

InsaneDriver06
01-21-2008, 07:52 PM
Yeah, I'm still undecided about on foot. If it's as good as the on foot in assassins creed or even Mass Effect, I'll be happy it's included, but I really want it to be on par with the quality of RE4, Gears of War, Star Wars Battlefront, Halo and so on. Up to this point in the series, it will either take a new team or Ubisoft's direct intervention to take on foot to another level beyond the subpar on foot we've seen so far. The driving is mostly great, just the on foot that really need to be redone completely from previous Driver's.

If it's the same basic controls of Driv3r, DPL and D2, then I don't see the point of including it, as it would only detract from the great driving portion.

Prove me wrong Reflections/Ubisoft.

kalle90
01-22-2008, 02:14 PM
Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
Yeah, I'm still undecided about on foot. If it's as good as the on foot in assassins creed or even Mass Effect, I'll be happy it's included, but I really want it to be on par with the quality of RE4, Gears of War, Star Wars Battlefront, Halo and so on. Up to this point in the series, it will either take a new team or Ubisoft's direct intervention to take on foot to another level beyond the subpar on foot we've seen so far. The driving is mostly great, just the on foot that really need to be redone completely from previous Driver's.

If it's the same basic controls of Driv3r, DPL and D2, then I don't see the point of including it, as it would only detract from the great driving portion.

Prove me wrong Reflections/Ubisoft.

When I said that combining games like Splinter Cell, Max Payne (Just this would be sufficent) and True Crime would be great on foot, I meant it would be entirely rebuild, not trying to tweak the old Driver walking slightly somewhere. There's certainly no reason to get rid of it.

Walking should feel connected to driving and the rest. Now it seems that main guy is complete ******, but when he gets a car, wow. That's just disturbing.

It can't be hard to change the current agonizing on foot, where I have to take sidesteps to shoot enemies because stick aiming is horrible to something that's atleast enjoyable. You have the SC and R6 teams in your "neighbour", their games are great examples of how to do 3rd and 1st person for Driver. How can smaller and newer companies have better executions?

InsaneDriver06
01-22-2008, 08:03 PM
Yeah, here's hoping Ubisoft's influence makes the on foot the best ever in the Driver series, not overlooking the most important part of course: driving.

driver_madness
01-22-2008, 08:28 PM
I understand what your all trying to say about the game evolving into something bigger and better.

Including on-foot and then the ability to use weapons. I know I've said this a million times but these should never get over used.

I will admit eversince they added weapons and on-foot I started to play the games a lot more because I had so much more freedom, but I think there is the point where they can over do it.

And the driving segment isn't as good as I'd like it to be yet! I've used NFS:MW in many examples because it has the best AI for cops tracking you down. Of course it's a lot harder in a free roam game with on-foot but it just takes a lot of time and that time should be spent.

And I'm also defiantly going against flying, I've hacked driver: parallel lines to get into places where you cannot on the standard game alone and I'll show you what the places you cannot get to look like and how the performance of the game can benefit without extra models and textures loaded into the game.

kalle90
01-23-2008, 10:09 AM
Yeah this thread is starting to repeat itself, we all want the best. But I still continue a bit.

The my own driving itself has been great from start including physics and all the little things I can do, it's the environment and AI that causes problems. Those same problems apply on foot too, there's just one more in shape of my own walking.

I think I rather would take game that gives me, the player itself, spectacular driving and walking and just after that start to really improve AI and environment. It's easier to change few on foot mechanics than make AI or environments real like. It would also be really hard to include great on foot to future game where AI and everything else is amazing, starting to improve on foot then would cause the entire gameplay to go back to starting point.

InsaneDriver06
01-24-2008, 10:35 AM
One thing I really liked about the on foot in Driver 2? The streets were safe. No one shooting at you for any reason. In that way, the game felt more about driving than anything else, as the sole purposes to on foot was exploration, switch activation and car-jacking.

Shooting in the game allows for situations that tend to create a whole other game. If it's included, it has to be better than what we've seen, with better controls on par with the great shooters out there.

------------------

GTA Ideas that are generic enough that ANY open city driving game could have them without "Ripping off GTA".

Camera Views: Interior Dash, 3rd person, helicopter view, etc.

On Foot: Cars are for transporting humans.

Passenger rides: ride as one on a bus, train, etc.

Climbing On Foot: climbing is not a GTA trademark, same with jumping.

-----------

GTA's crime/general game themes like:
Shooting, stealing cars, being a criminal, eating, sleeping, every day activities like reading the paper, brushing your teeth, weightlifting, changing your clothes, etc... Those things tend to make any game AFTER GTA seem like it's "ripping off GTA".

The point is, petty things like weight lifting get too far away from what Driver should be about. Changing clothes with a simple button press wouldn't be too bad, as it would keep the character's appearance fresh.

kalle90
01-24-2008, 12:39 PM
I actually liked those random gangsters in Driver 3, although they weren't anything they could have been. They added new dimension to game, someone just speeds like me Police chasing him, he stops and police kills him before he kills me. Realistic idea, but pretty poorly executed. Driver 1 and 2 just get repetive with driving and completely senseless slow walking, pederestians jumping away whenever i get close. Games would have been really boring if the physics wouldn't have been so unpredictable. It was really fun to fly over the level every now and then, without them game would have been lot shorter fun. Survival is easily the best in Driver 2, otherwise Im not too sure.

But I like the more realistic side of Driver compared to GTA so I wouldn't necessarily take the old physics back. Just making other, better features.


And the GTA. I really don't care about accuses of someone copying GTA if game is good, though usually they are not. I think Reflections should just do what they, and partly, we, want. Driver has proven to have huge potential and success. They should just remember the roots when Driver gave more realistic, movie like, game while GTA was and is for casual massacare and chaos. If Reflections think Driver from the movie side trying to include good crime story I believe we would get amazing games. Great story setting on few different, breathtaking, lively cities and areas, good chases and getaways both in car and on foot (climbing to roofs, running trough people masses on streets and apartments, jumping over fences, getting to hand to hand struggle) with some well thought bells and whistles I think it will be 10/10.

If you are trying to make Driver just about driving it won't be long before GTA has just as good driving and with all the other features, who wants game with less.

InsaneDriver06
01-25-2008, 08:58 AM
Interesting point about a driving game with less versus more stuff, and how GTA's driving could eventually be on par with Driver one day... which I doubt anytime soon, but we'll see how GTA4 turns out.

But Driver should consider sticking to Driving-related tasks more than anything else if they're going to add more stuff. GTA is good at stuff like sky-diving, helicopters, restaurants, etc.

kalle90
01-25-2008, 02:51 PM
I rather not have to choose bethween 2 same games, I'd likely buy just the better one. Maybe it would be GTA if they fixed driving and Driver would be the same. GTA puts it eggs on many baskets, while atleast you are telling to put them on single one.

I'd like to see the game be as movielike it could be without using cut scenes, or as few as possible. In cut scenes Tanner has chased people on foot, interrogated, fought, visited buildings, observed people, had conversations and so on. I'd like to see all those features smoothly included in actual gameplay, making it feel one hell of a crime story, with complete 1st person view option. Then all that implemented in Take a Ride and some mini games.

I understand your point and driving is currently the best part of game, perhaps only thing that doesn't frustrate me or anyone. I am just trying to make it something more. It gets boring to do the driving part, seeing how main charachter does something I can never do, then I have to drive again. I'd like to control all those other parts too and affect the outcome. Then in Take A Ride you could choose just to drive when I could use those other features.

Think like vids where Tanner has to shoot someone, if it would be in your control you could choose to shoot, not to shoot and make up some explanation or attack the other people. It would have to be action in seconds or people start to suspect you. There might even be multiple outcomes so even if you kill the gang it wouldn't be game over.

InsaneDriver06
01-25-2008, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by kalle90:
I rather not have to choose bethween 2 same games, I'd likely buy just the better one. Maybe it would be GTA if they fixed driving and Driver would be the same. GTA puts it eggs on many baskets, while atleast you are telling to put them on single one.

I'd like to see the game be as movielike it could be without using cut scenes, or as few as possible. In cut scenes Tanner has chased people on foot, interrogated, fought, visited buildings, observed people, had conversations and so on. I'd like to see all those features smoothly included in actual gameplay, making it feel one hell of a crime story, with complete 1st person view option. Then all that implemented in Take a Ride and some mini games.

I understand your point and driving is currently the best part of game, perhaps only thing that doesn't frustrate me or anyone. I am just trying to make it something more. It gets boring to do the driving part, seeing how main charachter does something I can never do, then I have to drive again. I'd like to control all those other parts too and affect the outcome. Then in Take A Ride you could choose just to drive when I could use those other features.

Think like vids where Tanner has to shoot someone, if it would be in your control you could choose to shoot, not to shoot and make up some explanation or attack the other people. It would have to be action in seconds or people start to suspect you. There might even be multiple outcomes so even if you kill the gang it wouldn't be game over.

I see your point. Cutscenes should be full controllable gameplay segments rather than just watching it happen, though they'd expand into full on foot missions instead of cutscenes in between each racing/driving mission.

JacksonL2007
01-26-2008, 07:30 AM
I think there should be 3 cutdscenes the begginning, middle and end one other than that just intergrate into the gameplay.

kalle90
01-26-2008, 09:23 AM
Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kalle90:
I rather not have to choose bethween 2 same games, I'd likely buy just the better one. Maybe it would be GTA if they fixed driving and Driver would be the same. GTA puts it eggs on many baskets, while atleast you are telling to put them on single one.

I'd like to see the game be as movielike it could be without using cut scenes, or as few as possible. In cut scenes Tanner has chased people on foot, interrogated, fought, visited buildings, observed people, had conversations and so on. I'd like to see all those features smoothly included in actual gameplay, making it feel one hell of a crime story, with complete 1st person view option. Then all that implemented in Take a Ride and some mini games.

I understand your point and driving is currently the best part of game, perhaps only thing that doesn't frustrate me or anyone. I am just trying to make it something more. It gets boring to do the driving part, seeing how main charachter does something I can never do, then I have to drive again. I'd like to control all those other parts too and affect the outcome. Then in Take A Ride you could choose just to drive when I could use those other features.

Think like vids where Tanner has to shoot someone, if it would be in your control you could choose to shoot, not to shoot and make up some explanation or attack the other people. It would have to be action in seconds or people start to suspect you. There might even be multiple outcomes so even if you kill the gang it wouldn't be game over.

I see your point. Cutscenes should be full controllable gameplay segments rather than just watching it happen, though they'd expand into full on foot missions instead of cutscenes in between each racing/driving mission. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gifLess that old arcade feel. Rather not predictable sequential driving mission-other mission build either.


I think there should be 3 cutdscenes the begginning, middle and end one other than that just intergrate into the gameplay.

Not really. Game can't really be thought by forcing cut scenes here and there. Story should be overall planned and connected. Having just 3 cut scenes might make them very long, not necessarily bad.

Basically everything should be playable and in my control, but when for example player flies to other country and does stuff really hard to include to nowaday gameplay then cut scenes should be used.

InsaneDriver06
01-30-2008, 08:16 AM
No big deal, but I wonder if Tanner, if it is Tanner again, is going to use his answering machine to receive missions (Driver 1), or a cell phone like the guy from GTA4?

I remember playing Driver 1, wishing I was able to control the character inside Tanner's room. All that could be done was click left or right and it'd warp to the next option.

FutureVenturer
02-02-2008, 09:49 PM
Cut scenes will likely be in the next Driver game. It's bound to happen. There are hardly any games without any cut scenes, except for a few games like Half-Life, Half-Life 2, and Bioshock. This element will likely always appear in video games since it is helpful to drive the narrative forward. However, as the technology in video games grows further, expect to see more interactions with the environment & objects within the world, meaning that this will allow developers to cut down on the amount of cut scenes. I'm sure that cut scenes will still contain some elements that won't appear in video games until either a little later, or a long way from today.

Don't let this disappoint you. As a suggestion for using cut scenes, I personally think that interactive cut scenes should be included, alongside with cut scenes that are there to drive the story forward. If you don't know what I mean by interactive cut scenes, then I'll give you a hint at saying that Resident Evil 4 had this, as well as games like God of War and Shenmue. What? You can't figure it out? Alright, alright. Fine, I'll tell you already. These cut scenes have buttons appear on-screen to allow players to tap them and perform certain actions, which while not entitling that feature with full interactivity, will allow players slightly more freedom. Driver could do this for avoiding attacks when fighting on-foot, for avoiding getting shot when driving a vehicle, etc. Although this is somewhat a linear approach to giving a game more abilities, I think that it would make for some pretty interesting gameplay for a game like Driver. Not only that, but it could have Driver differentiate a bit more from GTA IV.

InsaneDriver06
02-06-2008, 09:58 PM
Cutscenes should be gameplay scenes, where the gamer is required to interact or control something with the controller. Otherwise, we're just watching movie clips in our video games, and that's not what video games are about.

Video games: Interaction
Movies: Sit back and watch

I understand they want to tell a story, but it should involve input from the player at every moment, even during loading screens, there should be some kind of mini game to keep us playing, not watching. Final Fantasy's brilliant cutscenes are partly to blame.

FutureVenturer
02-09-2008, 08:19 PM
You're absolutely right, InsaneDriver06. Video games are about playing, whereas movies are about watching. The problem is that technology hasn't been able to go very far, in terms of video games, to make it possible for all games to use interactive cut scenes, or no cut scenes at all. It's likely that games like MGS and FF will always go for having cut scenes, but don't let that bring your hopes down. I believe that as soon as developers are able to give more freedom to players, it will be possible enough to remove cut scenes completely, or at least to leave them in, but have them allow us to interact with them.

I've seen games before that actually allow you to wait and play a minigame during loading screens, so that can be done with video games in the future. And better yet, if Rockstar North goes really far in terms of freedom, just as its 6th generation games have paved the way for many games to come, it'll mean that we may soon not need any more loading screens. I do believe that the story structure will need to be represented in new ways, such that players will never leave the playing experience, as they are playing a game. Also, with other games like Bioshock and Half-Life, as sequels, coming out in the future, this will mean that the technology for a non-cut-scene direction will grow even stronger. I certainly can't wait for such an experience that will leave me playing throughout all of my time.

Perhaps the one difficult task which developers won't completely eliminate is having advertising in their games. This can many times take away any original ideas. As much as we need realism in some respects, we can't have it be right there, messing with all the features of a game. Even for a game that tries very hard to be as realistic as possible should not have real advertising in it. It can get out of hand sometimes with decisions for games like this. I know that Need For Speed: Prostreet's experience was deteriorated because of the away approach from the previous NFS games and due to the fact that there were so many real advertising ads. Therefore, developers need to use their budget on a game wisely, and not hoping that advertising will make their game better because it won't.

InsaneDriver06
02-09-2008, 09:25 PM
Eliminated loading screens or just keeping up busy by reading game tips, playing a mini game definitely help keep the focus on the game up.

GTA's intro load screen takes forever it seems, often enough to make me second guess plugging it in for a quick game.

Advertising in games, like a Mcdonalds sign, never bothered me in the slightest bit. I actually welcome it in open city games, as it makes the game seem just a fraction more real. Drive anywhere in the real world and ads are everywhere. It's so easy to ignore them.

kalle90
02-11-2008, 07:16 AM
Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
Eliminated loading screens or just keeping up busy by reading game tips, playing a mini game definitely help keep the focus on the game up.

GTA's intro load screen takes forever it seems, often enough to make me second guess plugging it in for a quick game.

Advertising in games, like a Mcdonalds sign, never bothered me in the slightest bit. I actually welcome it in open city games, as it makes the game seem just a fraction more real. Drive anywhere in the real world and ads are everywhere. It's so easy to ignore them.

I don't really get bothered by loading screens, they rarely last longer than 3 seconds, you would need Warioware to play. Most important is to make them shortest possible. Now Halo has more things to do and see but still the longer loading times bother. One simple thing could be in game feed, in True Crime I could just watch the life in the city and listen the great soundtrack.

I absolutely love advertisements in games, if they belong the athmosphere and doesn't take away too much. I really don't want to watch blank walls and made up advertisements aren't very good either. Advertisement in Splinter Cell is perfect; posters, familiar products on shelves and people using and talking about them (who doesn't love hearing about other games in game), realistic, and I can just pass them without getting bothered at all. Just a big plus. Though Chaos Theory had minor problem with the Airwaves thing, the huge zeppeling in sky felt bit too much. True Crime had good advertisement too, lots of them visible, but none penetrating my eyes or game.

FutureVenturer
02-11-2008, 10:25 AM
I suppose it isn't that bad to have advertising in games. It truly depends on what kind of an approach a game is trying to make. And sometimes fake advertising in games may be boring, but at other times, it may actually fit a game well. I know that the Rockstar North makes great use of the fake advertising that goes on in the GTA franchise.

InsaneDriver06
02-11-2008, 06:15 PM
Right on. Advertising in games helps pay for the game besides. Never bothered me. Unless of course it's set in a fantasy world like Oblivion and they post Mcdonalds billboards on the trees.

FutureVenturer
02-14-2008, 08:14 PM
It depends on how far the developer wishes to go into expressing itself. If a developer hopes to make the whole world be envisioned in its way, then the game would need to remain with little to no advertisements. Otherwise, this can really interfere with the vision of the developer and it can mess up the final version of a game.

For instance, with a Metal Gear Solid game, Hideo Kojima and Kojima Productions try to keep the form of expression as big of a picture in the game as possible, so even while the game is set near the time of the real world, it would disappoint and bring confusement to gamers if advertisements were put into it. Furthermore, it's not a game that is intended for a non-linear or open-world experience, so it'd be a ridiculous idea to have real advertisements in-game.

InsaneDriver06
02-22-2008, 01:12 PM
GTA's focus revolves around the lead character. Driver's focus needs to revolve around the vehicle. For the best chases and racing ever in a game, Driver 5 needs to deliver far beyond GTA's loose focus on vehicles for the sake of "everything else".

Not saying we can't have on foot, but instead of details like going inside a mansion, let's have details of going inside a car dealership. Instead of eating food, fueling up the gas tank for health, instead of breaking into houses GTA style on foot, smash through them with your car. That's the Driver way.

FutureVenturer
02-22-2008, 05:18 PM
What a brilliant self-expression you've come to bring up, InsaneDriver06. We must remember that the Destruction Derby and Driver franchises are portions of Reflections' interests within the video game industry. The great form of self-expression found in Driver: You Are The Wheelman is that it largely had its focus on car chases. Around its time, it was the first and only game that brought together a storyline, a selection of cars, and physics as well as damage to truly create the best possible experience in interacting within a car chase. It's a shame that Reflections has been straying from that idea, in some parts, and that it hasn't put enough effort into each of its Driver games to help the car chases look unique. Due to the car chases' offerings of nothing but an outdated form of AI and its limited capacity in the kinds of skills/tactics which the police uses to take down criminals behind the wheel, it is really hurting this franchise.

It's actually possible that Reflections can stray from the self-expression of Rockstar North's, which is to have a world that allows your character to interact in many, yet still limited ways, and instead focus on the character, but in ways that will be all about the car chases. Straying from the original self-expression, which began a franchise, is the biggest mistake and disappointment that can be carried through by a developer. Broadness is not always the right way to push forth a video game franchise. I think that Reflections would leave a lot unanswered by taking a direction that broadly focuses on driving. One, it'd take up so much for a video game console or disc's capacity. Two, it may leave huge gaps in the whole form of self-expression, even though a title may form a new direction.

Reflections must not look too far in the aspects of driving, but it should still try to build heavily on its current driving aspects, most importantly the AI and amount of abilities/tactics the police can use in their cars to stop you, when in a car chase.

InsaneDriver06
02-25-2008, 12:16 PM
Great car chases with the option to go on foot and maybe shoot, but also climb, jump and do what any athelete is capable of, especially hopping over fences and two foot ledges without having to walk around them DPL style.

On foot should really focus on making the gamer realize their real strength is in a vehicle, not on foot. So on foot should make the player VERY VULNERABLE to getting run over, shot and attacked, while being in your vehicle keeps you more protected/safer.

The advantage should heavily lean towards driving a vehicle versus walking on foot in the game world. Missions should be accomplished always with the use of a vehicle. IMO.

FutureVenturer
02-27-2008, 03:05 PM
Now that we know what needs to be done, I can conclude my thoughts about this topic. It's either that Reflections will push its next Driver game to a whole new direction, or it will continue the approach of GTA clones. I'm hoping that ridding the next game of its narrative (discluding the ability for pedestrians to have their own unique dialogue & personalities, which really helps make a game feel realistic and needs to be seen). If Reflections can follow the advice of removing its narrative in exchange for a much more fine-tuned on-foot & driving experience, this will maybe even put it over that of the GTA games, as it'll be a very non-linear game. Cut scenes will be gone for good if narrative is abandoned.

InsaneDriver06
02-28-2008, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by FutureVenturer:
Now that we know what needs to be done, I can conclude my thoughts about this topic. It's either that Reflections will push its next Driver game to a whole new direction, or it will continue the approach of GTA clones. I'm hoping that ridding the next game of its narrative (discluding the ability for pedestrians to have their own unique dialogue & personalities, which really helps make a game feel realistic and needs to be seen). If Reflections can follow the advice of removing its narrative in exchange for a much more fine-tuned on-foot & driving experience, this will maybe even put it over that of the GTA games, as it'll be a very non-linear game. Cut scenes will be gone for good if narrative is abandoned.

Then the game would be purely about stunt driving and chases without wasting any time of cutscenes, when there's great gameplay to develop.

FutureVenturer
02-29-2008, 03:39 PM
Are you saying that you agree with me, or that you disagree with my statement, InsaneDriver06?

InsaneDriver06
03-01-2008, 09:58 AM
Originally posted by FutureVenturer:
Are you saying that you agree with me, or that you disagree with my statement, InsaneDriver06?

I agree, but I know Ubisoft and Reflections will present a story no matter what we say. My favorite game for over a year is Test Drive Unlimited, and there's ZERO story in that game, beyond buying, racing and driving vehicles/sportbikes. Fine with me. Less time wasted on trying to fit a story in there.

To me, racing games should avoid stories, like sports games avoid them. When you watch a baseball game, there is no story. It's all action.

But if we abandon story, what drives the car chases/stunts? Random crime in the game, or racing, or sporting events.

kalle90
03-01-2008, 11:16 AM
Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FutureVenturer:
Are you saying that you agree with me, or that you disagree with my statement, InsaneDriver06?

To me, racing games should avoid stories, like sports games avoid them. When you watch a baseball game, there is no story. It's all action.

But if we abandon story, what drives the car chases/stunts? Random crime in the game, or racing, or sporting events. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Racing games, like Forza, Burnout, Gran Turismo, Colin Mcrae and even Test Drive from what we have seen so far don't need story at all. Racers using "you're a son of legend driver" stories do feel laughable. I agree and accept that. Sandbox games are another matter.
My thoughts of:
Driver:
-Crime story
-Realism
GTA:
-Freedom
-Activities
True Crime:
-Smooth mix of driving, fighting and shooting.
-Police life

That's where my thinking of Driver comes.

InsaneDriver06
03-04-2008, 04:58 PM
Originally posted by kalle90:
Racing games, like Forza, Burnout, Gran Turismo, Colin Mcrae and even Test Drive from what we have seen so far don't need story at all. Racers using "you're a son of legend driver" stories do feel laughable. I agree and accept that. Sandbox games are another matter.
My thoughts of:
Driver:
-Crime story
-Realism
GTA:
-Freedom
-Activities
True Crime:
-Smooth mix of driving, fighting and shooting.
-Police life

That's where my thinking of Driver comes.

You're probably right, Driver's better with some kind of story to tie it all together, otherwise, it's just random chases.

Then again, that works for me as I rarely ever replay the main missions of past Driver games when there's free roam to be had.

Ask yourself, "How many times do I replay the Driver missions, compared to driving anywhere, anytime, any vehicle in free roam?

Dylan77
03-04-2008, 06:21 PM
I think this is a little bit off topic but i was interested in the info on the driver movie. I know there was one made in 1978 but i was hoping they were going to make a new one and there was talk about a couple of companies deciding to make it and i know it was pretty recent as there was talk of the makers of the resident evil movie franchise going to work on it after apocolypse. After they waited too long it was bought out by a different company and they were forced to move from the building they were in and thus delaying the making but i was wondering if there was any new news.

J_Frumpleberg
03-05-2008, 06:51 AM
Unless the next game is a big hit, I seriously doubt it at this point there will be a movie

kalle90
03-05-2008, 07:46 AM
Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kalle90:
Racing games, like Forza, Burnout, Gran Turismo, Colin Mcrae and even Test Drive from what we have seen so far don't need story at all. Racers using "you're a son of legend driver" stories do feel laughable. I agree and accept that. Sandbox games are another matter.
My thoughts of:
Driver:
-Crime story
-Realism
GTA:
-Freedom
-Activities
True Crime:
-Smooth mix of driving, fighting and shooting.
-Police life

That's where my thinking of Driver comes.

You're probably right, Driver's better with some kind of story to tie it all together, otherwise, it's just random chases.

Then again, that works for me as I rarely ever replay the main missions of past Driver games when there's free roam to be had.

Ask yourself, "How many times do I replay the Driver missions, compared to driving anywhere, anytime, any vehicle in free roam? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have played Driv3r story mode 3 times so I wouldn't consider it huge either. Most missions are hard, easy or repetive. But without story Driver would be a lot worse. I play free ride and mini games a lot more than story in the end though.

I only ask to improve the center gameplay. All the things mentioned earlier; smooth moving climbing, running, aiming, melee fight, 1st and 3rd person view etc. Adding those things in story mode to reduce cut scenes and repetiveness would do miracles. Of course free ride would enjoy those features too, but story would profit probably more.

Currently only enjoyable missions in Driver are solo drivings that aren't made impossible. Shootouts, runs, AI allies are weak. That leaves repetive good missions and bad missions in bethween. Free ride on the other hand provides lot more to do and I can't keep failing compulsory mission.

InsaneDriver06
03-05-2008, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by kalle90:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kalle90:
Racing games, like Forza, Burnout, Gran Turismo, Colin Mcrae and even Test Drive from what we have seen so far don't need story at all. Racers using "you're a son of legend driver" stories do feel laughable. I agree and accept that. Sandbox games are another matter.
My thoughts of:
Driver:
-Crime story
-Realism
GTA:
-Freedom
-Activities
True Crime:
-Smooth mix of driving, fighting and shooting.
-Police life

That's where my thinking of Driver comes.

You're probably right, Driver's better with some kind of story to tie it all together, otherwise, it's just random chases.

Then again, that works for me as I rarely ever replay the main missions of past Driver games when there's free roam to be had.

Ask yourself, "How many times do I replay the Driver missions, compared to driving anywhere, anytime, any vehicle in free roam? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have played Driv3r story mode 3 times so I wouldn't consider it huge either. Most missions are hard, easy or repetive. But without story Driver would be a lot worse. I play free ride and mini games a lot more than story in the end though.

I only ask to improve the center gameplay. All the things mentioned earlier; smooth moving climbing, running, aiming, melee fight, 1st and 3rd person view etc. Adding those things in story mode to reduce cut scenes and repetiveness would do miracles. Of course free ride would enjoy those features too, but story would profit probably more.

Currently only enjoyable missions in Driver are solo drivings that aren't made impossible. Shootouts, runs, AI allies are weak. That leaves repetive good missions and bad missions in bethween. Free ride on the other hand provides lot more to do and I can't keep failing compulsory mission. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, they need to break away from the old, dull mission formula they've been using all these games. Somehow make it a blast to play missions, where there's never the same chase script each time a mission's played.

Replay value is VERY low for missions in my book, compared to the VERY high replay value of free roam. Free roam is a new chase almost every time.

FutureVenturer
03-19-2008, 01:17 PM
One of the biggest flaws of this series is that its mission and storyline structure has been lacking for some time now. It's time to take these two elements to the next level and to have an increase in abilities for the player to use, as well as a large improvement in the AI can really help drive these two elements forward. While the GTA games will likely always be ahead in driving the freedom forward, Reflections can try to make sure that the whole city is as polished as possible. This means to improve the AI vastly, to make all the necessary abilities appear in the game and be polished greatly (for the driving and on-foot portions), to get a good physics engine for everything in the world (Havoks physics is the best engine for this), to bring a storyline that's brimming with intriguing cases filled with their own missions and with more choices for you to choose in completing them than you could ever imagine, to fix up as much of the game and make it as bug free as possible, to bring a variety of moods into each part of the game (when on a mission and when just exploring the city), and to bring the best controls, sound effects, and graphics ever imagineable.

For now and on, I believe that the Driver series needs to focus both on the on-foot & the driving, but to handle things differently when in the Action-adventure genre. It needs to strive for the most polished game, much like the Legend of Zelda games have been for this genre, except that it'll be a bit more non-linear than this, and all the other free roam games need to follow this path as well, as the GTA franchise will nearly always be dominant in variety. Although quantity is great, quality is always better. Until a game can truly innovate greatly in non-linear gameplay, there's no reason for the rest of the games in the same category to go for the most quantity possible. By doing this, it won't be such a GTA clone, and, most importantly, it'll be able to follow its own path, as will any other game that instead goes most for the quality rather than for quantity.

As far as I'm concerned, the GTA franchise will really start to struggle as soon as the amount of quantity of features goes up to a really huge number. And with knowing that the GTA franchise has usually only been known for combining other genres' features to help the replay value go up higher, rather than work on quality and sacrifice the many, for new and unique ideas, this will mean that, in a couple of years (maybe 5 or 10), the GTA franchise will dry up like the ideas in the Final Fantasy franchise, which have become very lacking, and thus, Square Enix struggles with strategizing for the franchise on how to release new games each year. Either they're made as ports, as remakes, or nowadays they're usually new, but with little to no huge new features to get excited about, when looking at its future impact on the RPG genre. All which Rockstar North will ever think about, just as it's been doing from the very start, and just as TakeTwo has been doing, is to gain a lot of money from doing this, nothing more. I must say that TakeTwo Interactive has been very successful in brainwashing many kids and young adults into buying the GTA franchise and any other franchise which rates high in mature content. Its marketing strategies have proven to be a great success, except for the rest of its lineup, which is either "Teen" rated or "E for Everyone" rated.

InsaneDriver06
03-19-2008, 03:46 PM
I agree that the missions, besides a few memorable ones (not counting the nearly impossible ones), need a lot of work and refinement to be worth replaying in the next Driver.