silhouette

[Ristar85]

this has been bothering me for a long time, in every Splinter Cell game.

the stupid AI cant see Sam's silhouette.


i really hope people at Ubisoft do something about this problem. it is just ridiculous for the AI to be so blind and stupid, and makes the game overly easy against the AI.

[CoastalGirl]

They can't see cast shadows either.

I'm not sure either issue is going to be relevant to SCC, though... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

[Dneye]

In the original SC and PT, they didn't need to see Sam's shadow or silhouette. They could 'smell human', and somehow could tell I was jammed in a shadow just by sniffing, lol.

I loved it how the guard would go "Huh!? What was that?!" and head straight to the place I was hiding... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[featherfoot07]

Well, if we want to get into this we can.

Why can't the A.I see the three dots of his goggles?

Why do they just now, after CT or DA surround you.?

details are details, not important to the game.

[xXsh4d0w.w0lfXx]

They can't see the 3 dots of his goggles because they don't really glow like that...but it's so the player can see Sam in the dark, just like that warning indicator in DA.

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
I'm not sure either issue is going to be relevant to SCC, though... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif Never fear, ConViction's AI will have its own stupidity issues. Special ones, because ConViction will be a special Splinter Cell. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Hayden_v]

Oooo SPECIAL! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

[Ristar85]

Originally posted by featherfoot07:
Well, if we want to get into this we can.

Why can't the A.I see the three dots of his goggles?

Why do they just now, after CT or DA surround you.?

details are details, not important to the game.


the goggles glow only on the player's screen to mark the Splinter Cell's position.

details?? not important??

if the enemy is able to see silhouette and shadows, it WILL CHANGE game play. a lot.

and speaking about details, reloading shouldn't top up the number of rounds in a magazine, but cycle through the magazines. i haven't played DA for a while, but this problem is certainly present in CT. and yes. this affects game play too.

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

Well, to be fair, there's never really been a game that actually reloads correctly.

It's a shame, yeah, but topping off the ammo has become the standard for game development.

Kinda funny how something can be considered wrong when only one game does it, but when every game does it, apparently it's acceptable. Shameful... >_>

[soron]

Originally posted by Ristar85:
the goggles glow only on the player's screen to mark the Splinter Cell's position.


That is true IRL NVGs do not glow, that would defeat the purpose of using them. The NVG lenses do not glow any more than binoculars glow. The glowing is just an effect the Devs added so you can see your character on screen and it also adds style to the game.

[Knot3D]

Originally posted by Ristar85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by featherfoot07:
Well, if we want to get into this we can.

Why can't the A.I see the three dots of his goggles?

Why do they just now, after CT or DA surround you.?

details are details, not important to the game.


the goggles glow only on the player's screen to mark the Splinter Cell's position.

details?? not important??

if the enemy is able to see silhouette and shadows, it WILL CHANGE game play. a lot.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>So true. I've been saying this since loooongtime. Silhouette recognition would be integral to gameplay because
sneaking involves moving around ; so that means, there'll be lots of instances where you're not in direct light, but from
any other point of view, against a lighter or contrasting background.

I think, the reason we haven't seen it in SC games yet, because it'll probably be very processing intensive. Something Ubi, isn't capable of implementing efficiently yet. That's why they rather opt for side tracks such as CROWD ai which will rely more on scripting.

[calmoatcake]

Originally posted by LaurenIsSoMosh:
Well, to be fair, there's never really been a game that actually reloads correctly.

It's a shame, yeah, but topping off the ammo has become the standard for game development.

Kinda funny how something can be considered wrong when only one game does it, but when every game does it, apparently it's acceptable. Shameful... >_>

rainbow six three reloaded new mags and when u ran out of new ones you had to use half empty ones
woop loved that game
i spent my whole childhood on it

[soron]

Originally posted by calmoatcake:
rainbow six three reloaded new mags and when u ran out of new ones you had to use half empty ones
woop loved that game
i spent my whole childhood on it

That was the best Rainbow Six. After that the team's AI turned ******ed.

Also It did not reload correctly because it did not account for the round in the chamber. If you reload a 32 round mag b4 your mag is empty you now have 33 rounds in your weapon not 32 because there will still be a round from your previous mag in the chamber.

[calmoatcake]

Originally posted by soron:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by calmoatcake:
rainbow six three reloaded new mags and when u ran out of new ones you had to use half empty ones
woop loved that game
i spent my whole childhood on it

That was the best Rainbow Six. After that the team's AI turned ******ed.

Also It did not reload correctly because it did not account for the round in the chamber. If you reload a 32 round mag b4 your mag is empty you now have 33 rounds in your weapon not 32 because there will still be a round from your previous mag in the chamber. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

wel ur character obviously did an NSP very quickly after every reload dur http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[featherfoot07]

Originally posted by Ristar85:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by featherfoot07:
Well, if we want to get into this we can.

Why can't the A.I see the three dots of his goggles?

Why do they just now, after CT or DA surround you.?

details are details, not important to the game.


the goggles glow only on the player's screen to mark the Splinter Cell's position.

details?? not important??

if the enemy is able to see silhouette and shadows, it WILL CHANGE game play. a lot.

and speaking about details, reloading shouldn't top up the number of rounds in a magazine, but cycle through the magazines. i haven't played DA for a while, but this problem is certainly present in CT. and yes. this affects game play too. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand that details are important, but if one goes camando about details they become the core mechanic of the game, not the plot itself.

[RowdySpy1990]

Originally posted by soron:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ristar85:
the goggles glow only on the player's screen to mark the Splinter Cell's position.


That is true IRL NVGs do not glow, that would defeat the purpose of using them. The NVG lenses do not glow any more than binoculars glow. The glowing is just an effect the Devs added so you can see your character on screen and it also adds style to the game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
The glowing creates an awesome effect though, like when you're sneaking into a pitch black room and all you see are three green dots. (at least in the first 2 games)

[Stealthguy1986]

This silhouette detection thing should be implemented in the future Sc titles (provided they are using l&s). It's ony purpose is that it will make things more challenging.

Also the three green dots though it looks cool and stylish but I prefer it to be replaced by real NVGS which do not glow.Doing this would add more realism to the game.

[Sam007Fisher]

This thread proves the point that L/S is not dead. No need for S/S.

UBI could have used all of these great ideas to bring even greater realism to Splinter Cell....but they went completely the wrong way and took away Sam's shadows.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Also depending on Sam's suit and the kind of shadows that you're in. Your visibility could either decrease/increase.

Example:

Sam is wearing a turquoise suit and is hiding is semi/dark shadow. Since the suit is turquoise, he will stand out more than if he was wearing a black suit.

*Invisible UBI note taker* "Fans want the ability to choose suits."

[CoastalGirl]

I'd be for choosing suits. Having a default would be cool, but being able to choose one that's less ideal for a greater challenge...nifty. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I'd also like to be able to pick my own gear (including choosing "none").

[RowdySpy1990]

Originally posted by Stealthguy1986:
This silhouette detection thing should be implemented in the future Sc titles (provided they are using l&s). It's ony purpose is that it will make things more challenging.

Also the three green dots though it looks cool and stylish but I prefer it to be replaced by real NVGS which do not glow.Doing this would add more realism to the game.
You'll have to be careful with balancing realism with player appreciation. If you lean too much to one side, it will ruin the game.

For example, if Ubi focused entirely on realism, sam would have two sets of goggles since there are no goggles that can support NV and EMF and infered vision. Sam would not even have half of his equiptment and he would probably not be able to do the splits, since he's in his 40? But even then, there are still some non-realistic moments. I personally perfer the goggles to be visible because it has become such a trademark for Splinter Cell and is essentially, part of Sam's character.

[Tidenburg]

We have to think about balancing when it comes to Sil-Detection though. For example, what if the player cannot easily see the light?
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/521/ssamcaughtzr7.jpg
In this picture the spy could be quite far away from the light source and may not have taken notice of it, but in real life we would notice this immediately.
http://img216.imageshack.us/img216/6041/ssamcaught2am3.jpg
In this example there is light reflected across the room by a mirror. The merc would also see the spy here but the spy could REALLY easily not even see the light is being reflected. The S-Detection would have to be very limited and only apply in really obvious situations, where the player won't be wonder how the hell he got saw.

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

One of Splinter Cell's biggest imperfections is that it has always portrayed light and shadow using areas. Standing in the shadows meant you're invisible, in the light meant you're visible. But it's not that simple, or for pun's sake, that black and white. Light and shadow are better portrayed using angles.

As Tidenburg has pointed out, there are quite a few good examples of when Sam Fisher can be in a shadow yet still be entirely visible. He may be standing in a pretty shady spot, but a guard at a good angle can see him well enough to paint his portrait, or at least an outline of it anyway. Likewise, if you place the guard anywhere else on the map, Sam goes back to being unnoticed. It's all about the angles.

These scenarios are really good, but this also applies to standing in and around the light. If Sam is in a not-so-dark area, that would be considered a dead giveaway in the games, but in real life, certain factors might actually keep him hidden, depending on a guard's angle.

Let's say, for example, Sam is standing normally under a lamp, surrounded by darkness. And there are two guards in the room.
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/4671/underalampdt5.png
One of the guards is sitting at a desk with a light shining right in his face (don't ask me why), and the other is standing at the opposite side. Guard one obviously would be able to see Sam clearly, as he's under a light, plain as day. But as for guard two, he's got a light in his face, so he can't see what's in front of him.

And in another scenario, we have a quartet of guards, all tackling the darkness in their own way.
http://img513.imageshack.us/img513/5977/omgmarshmallowstx7.png
Chaos Theory taught us to avoid the man with the flashlight because he can see you in the dark, and to laugh at the man with no flashlight because he can't see anything at all. But is real life like that? No. Pretty much the opposite, actually. It's the man with the flashlight who is truly blind, because he can see only what is shown to him by his flashlight.

The guy with the chemical flare is actually doing more harm than good for himself. The only thing he can see is what's immediately in front and around him, and in the process he's basically highlighting his position to you.

And obviously, the guy sitting at the fire can't see a darned thing at all. If he walked away from the fire, you could walk right in front of his face and he probably wouldn't notice.

The man without the flashlight might stumble around in the darkness at first, like when the lights are turned off on him, but after fifteen or twenty minutes, he can see in the dark as clearly, and not only what's shown to him or what's immediately in front of him.

And in a final scenario, we have a situation where light, given that the guard is at the right angle, can actually hide you.
http://img519.imageshack.us/img519/8207/playingtheangleseb4.png
We'll have to play pretend here because it's a bit hard to accurately represent this scenario with Microsoft Paint. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

The little niche that Sam is crouching in is dark. If there wasn't a window there, it would be at the very bottom of the light meter. But stray light from the window slightly illuminates this niche, so let's say it's just a pinch above the first notch on the light meter (which is barely visible. Just enough to arouse suspicion.) Normally, a guard would see you and, obviously, become suspicious. But because there's light in front of you (not shining in the guard's face, just in the area in front of you) it makes what's behind the light actually look darker, and much harder to see.

From Angle B, though, there is no light "covering" you, so a guard could see you.

This is really hard for me to represent, but if you play Montreal's Double Agent, in the Iceland mission, there's a long room with a big window in front of it where you can crouch under. If you look at this from Angle A, you wouldn't really be able to see Sam, but from Angle B, he's very noticeable.

I think this is very important for the developers to take into consideration. Just because you're in the darkness doesn't mean you aren't visible, and likewise, just because you're in the light doesn't mean you are visible.

It's all about the angle. Not the area.

[Tidenburg]

My point is, it's much easier for a player to judge how visible they are by looking at the shadows by their feet, not by re-evaluating their position every 20 seconds.

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

Haha, so did I help reinforce your point or just make things worse? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

By the way, scenario one and three may seem identical, so to elaborate their differences:

Scenario one is a case where it's safe to move through an area that would normally be unsafe. It's only safe for a few seconds while the guard is at a bad angle, like a window of opportunity in other words.

And scenario three is a case where you can move into an area and actually use it as a hiding place for as long as you want, because you're covered from all but one angle. It's safe forever, because nobody can see you unless they have that one good angle.

[RowdySpy1990]

Well, we remember how staying in the spot light can be the safest route, like in PT with the guard with NV goggles http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[CoastalGirl]

Heh.


Velvet Assassin is shaping up to be a challenging experience. One time I walked around a corner, and the silhouetted shadow of my figure was projected on a nearby wall. As a result of this, a soldier noticed my presence and triggered an alarm. Soon, a flood of guards came rushing towards me, all of them armed with guns. This was not good, as I was merely equipped with a knife.

[bbfreak7777]

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
Heh.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Velvet Assassin is shaping up to be a challenging experience. One time I walked around a corner, and the silhouetted shadow of my figure was projected on a nearby wall. As a result of this, a soldier noticed my presence and triggered an alarm. Soon, a flood of guards came rushing towards me, all of them armed with guns. This was not good, as I was merely equipped with a knife. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorta sounds like a game I used to know.....http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[CoastalGirl]

Yeah, the more I hear about VA, the more excited I get.

It sounds like they're really trying to push L&S to the next level...wish Ubi had, too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[bbfreak7777]

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
Yeah, the more I hear about VA, the more excited I get.

It sounds like they're really trying to push L&S to the next level...wish Ubi had, too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Yea, that could've been Sam.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

[CoastalGirl]

Originally posted by bbfreak7777:
Yea, that could've been Sam.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
Well clearly Ubi's not entirely anti-sneaking, otherwise why would they be involved with this (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/3761044996)?

Want. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtjJSwIeJjc&feature=related) LoL

[bbfreak7777]

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bbfreak7777:
Yea, that could've been Sam.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
Well clearly Ubi's not entirely anti-sneaking, otherwise why would they be involved with this (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/3761044996)?

Want. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FtjJSwI eJjc&feature=related) LoL </div></BLOCKQUOTE> http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

[Hayden_v]

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by bbfreak7777:
Yea, that could've been Sam.... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif
Well clearly Ubi's not entirely anti-sneaking, otherwise why would they be involved with this (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/frm/f/3761044996)? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Ooo, is it gonna eventually go on the Xbox360 and other platforms? Anyone know?

[Knot3D]

No. Tenchu = not coming to 360 nor PS3.

[CoastalGirl]

Originally posted by Knot3D:
No. Tenchu = not coming to 360 nor PS3.
Yeah, it sounds like they're working their way through the different consoles, trying to find a fit (IMO Z was fine on the 360 - it's a niche game, so if they're console-hopping, looking for big sales...good luck).

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

Originally posted by CoastalGirl:
It sounds like they're really trying to push L&S to the next level...wish Ubi had, too. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Ubi had their chance. They were king of light and shadow, and then they dropped the ball.

It would be hilarious if Velvet and ConViction release right around the same time, and Velvet sells millions, and ConViction sells as well as Face Breaker.

Hmm, guess where all your fans went, Ubi.

[Knot3D]

I wouldn't count on Velvet Assassin too much ; it seems like a noble innitiative, but the German developer just seems too small & inexperienced to deliver anything near the scope & polish of the SC brand until SC DA Xb1.

[CoastalGirl]

Velvet could very well be out long before we even hear about SCC again. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


I'm not sure how the numbers will work... Ubi's going for mainstream, so it's probably not going to matter - it's not really a fair fight. I haven't heard a single thing implying that VA hasn't embraced its genre (which I think is awesome), so niche gamers like myself may be thrilled with it. Then you've got the mainstreamers, who may play through SCC and just say "meh, next". However, since the latter group is a lot more populous, and a "meh" and a "woohoo, this is awesome!" have equal value...


Also, though the guys doing VA might be new, they have a good number of games to reference. If they've learned from those, VA could really be great. If not...well...I'll still probably like it at least a little. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

[LaurenIsSoMosh]

One of the things that I like about it is that, since this can't be a trilogy, all they can focus on is this one game. And they won't be sitting down a year or two later saying, "we're tired of stealth and sneaking, let's make the sequel more of a brawler."

The 100% dedication to all-out stealth is very appealing to me.

[CoastalGirl]

The only problem is they usually don't have a large budget, so some areas often suffer. Thankfully though, it's typically not the gameplay. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif