Beautiful Choclate Cake.... Without The Choclate

[BurgessDj]

I know there has been many threads on this but seriously..... i do not see how they make such a great series of games and then take away all it's goodness, Driver was a great game as it was the only game like that of it's time, when in driver 2 you could get out your car that was AMAZING even if you were useless.

then follwed by driv3r and Driver PL, which were some of the best games i ever played ! i think they should of really took this game back to the drawing board and add back in the "choclate" so to speak.

As for "switch" i'd expect that to be in a game like "Halo" or something not a what "was" realistic game were you can actualy steal your own cars.

[InsaneDriver06]

Originally posted by BurgessDj:
I know there has been many threads on this but seriously..... i do not see how they make such a great series of games and then take away all it's goodness, Driver was a great game as it was the only game like that of it's time, when in driver 2 you could get out your car that was AMAZING even if you were useless.

then follwed by driv3r and Driver PL, which were some of the best games i ever played ! i think they should of really took this game back to the drawing board and add back in the "choclate" so to speak.

As for "switch" i'd expect that to be in a game like "Halo" or something not a what "was" realistic game were you can actualy steal your own cars.

Yes, the other threads are where this fits best, but I do remember thinking the same thing when Driver 2 came out. "Wow, on foot, awesome". And when is there going to be a zombie game set in a post apocalyptic city the size of San Fransisco, as Dead Rising isn't a city, just a mall/casino...

[Assassin_Hun73r]

Driver was never about stealing cars. That's GTA. Driver made a mistake by copying GTA.
Anyway I believe you should've used the other thread.

[J_Frumpleberg]

In the opening scene of Driver 1, Tanner walks up to a Mustang in a parking garage and hotwires it, then runs from the cops. Its always been about the criminal underworld, stealing cars, getting in shoot-outs, only Tanner is undercover.

I still believe Driver can be its own game while having guns and all that cool stuff, look at D3, nothing like GTA. DPL, however...

A lot of people who don't follow the games progress online are going to be really disappointed when they spend $60 on DSF, take it home, and realise theres no guns

[SLRMC93]

Originally posted by BurgessDj:
I know there has been many threads on this but seriously..... i do not see how they make such a great series of games and then take away all it's goodness, Driver was a great game as it was the only game like that of it's time, when in driver 2 you could get out your car that was AMAZING even if you were useless.
then follwed by driv3r and Driver PL, which were some of the best games i ever played ! i think they should of really took this game back to the drawing board and add back in the "choclate" so to speak.

As for "switch" i'd expect that to be in a game like "Halo" or something not a what "was" realistic game were you can actualy steal your own cars.
http://www.digitalgypsy.com/vfxlog/uploadedfiles/gta4boxart-thumb-400x502.jpg
http://www.giocattoleria.it/wp-content/uploads/saints_row_4.jpg
there you go

[brok2]

Originally posted by J_Frumpleberg:
In the opening scene of Driver 1, Tanner walks up to a Mustang in a parking garage and hotwires it, then runs from the cops. Its always been about the criminal underworld, stealing cars, getting in shoot-outs, only Tanner is undercover.

I still believe Driver can be its own game while having guns and all that cool stuff, look at D3, nothing like GTA. DPL, however...


That's actually a really good point. The first time you ever see Tanner- the first thing you see at all in the Driver series... is Tanner on foot, walking up to a car and using it. Long before GTA 3 came out too. Being able to explore on foot, as well as the use of guns, has always been the natural progression of the series, only each time it's tried it comes off unpolished and Reflections chose to scrap all their work instead of just tweaking it and getting it right.

[Assassin_Hun73r]

BUT TANNER IS ON FOOT WHILE IN A CUTSCENE AND HE HOTWIRES WHILE IN A CUTSCENE. Cutscenes are just a video sort of unlike the real game where the player has to play it.
Driver and guns don't go well together.
If on foot has to be added, it has to be limited otherwise it'll make DRIVING A 2ND choice and it will loose the game's original focus point.
Driver made a mistake when they made on foot WITH GUNS.
We see this in D3. The chases, physics and cops and especially the enjoyment you get from driving are NOTHING like Driver 1.
WHY? I explained this in detail in the other thread. But anyway. It's because the game will have 2 focus points so the driving won't have the full attention.
Having ON FOOT doesn't mean the game's progressing.
Progressing without on foot can be:
Bigger city
many vehicles
in car view like they've done
different handling for different vehicles depending on their class
AI. This is very important in a game like driver. it can open up some really interesting things if the AI is great.

[SLRMC93]

Originally posted by Assassin_Hun73r:
Driver made a mistake when they made on foot WITH GUNS.
YES! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TylvUGJIi_w)

[PeaceMaker_101]

Originally posted by Assassin_Hun73r:
BUT TANNER IS ON FOOT WHILE IN A CUTSCENE AND HE HOTWIRES WHILE IN A CUTSCENE. Cutscenes are just a video sort of unlike the real game where the player has to play it.
Driver and guns don't go well together.
If on foot has to be added, it has to be limited otherwise it'll make DRIVING A 2ND choice and it will loose the game's original focus point.
Driver made a mistake when they made on foot WITH GUNS.
We see this in D3. The chases, physics and cops and especially the enjoyment you get from driving are NOTHING like Driver 1.
WHY? I explained this in detail in the other thread. But anyway. It's because the game will have 2 focus points so the driving won't have the full attention.
Having ON FOOT doesn't mean the game's progressing.
Progressing without on foot can be:
Bigger city
many vehicles
in car view like they've done
different handling for different vehicles depending on their class
AI. This is very important in a game like driver. it can open up some really interesting things if the AI is great.
I think that DSF will use D1's physics very well. And if Reflections is successful with DSF, then moving onto better on foot skills shouldn't be a big problem. As long as the emphasis is not on any non-D2/D3 minigames, the on foot should still be very well polished. It could be function just like in Mafia II. That and having nonlinear missions and storytelling combined may create what will be a very engaging experience.

[Assassin_Hun73r]

^On foot in Driver DOESN'T MEAN moving into the next level. It's actually moving downwards.
I compared Driver to games like Test drive unlimited. The focus on driving.
But test drive is all about the luxury life and mainly cars, while driver is all about the ACTION INSIDE THE CAR and NOT ON FOOT.
Well if on foot was for only stealing and hotwiring cars I wouldn't mind at all. BUT GUNS???
No way. It'll end up like GTA. Shooting like a maniac to stop vehicles. Where's the car chase fun that driver is know for in that?
In my opinion, guns do not belong in driver AT ALL. It'll end up like GTA if it was included and less focus on driving.
ON FOOT LIKE DRIVER 2 IS GOOD enough not to destroy the driving experience but to also make it real by stealing cars and hotwiring them.
Still it's best if on foot was never added, but if IT'S EVER GOING TO RETURN, REFLECTIONS HAVE TO FIGURE OUT SOME WAY TO MAKE IT A 2ND PRIORITY AND GIVE THE DRIVING THE FULL ATTENTION. That said, it has to be limited otherwise it'll overpower the driving and that'll cause the name DRIVER to fail entirely.
Anyway NON LINEAR missions based on how well you drive and do the missions, sounds awesome. It is worthy of a next step and keep the driving experience intact.

[smiler_16]

Originally posted by Assassin_Hun73r:
it'll overpower the driving and that'll cause the name DRIVER to fail entirely.

its starting to bug me when people continue to go on about the name, Grand Theft Auto barely focuses on Stealing cars these days, thats just one of the small features of the game.

Where as with the Driver name, that basically just describes your characters job, he's a Driver, that doesn't mean he is forced to stay in the car, and what happens if the car they got to the destination in is f*cked, they will obviously need another car... but Tanner doesn't know how to get out... but it would be useful to get out so while the guys your working for go and get the money (or whatever else) and Tanner can get a good car and wait for the guys to get in then burnout and get away from the police & drop them off at whereever their safehouse is, and you walk into the safehouse with them, and that would be where it goes into a cutscene and they can update you on how the job went indoors, whilst letting you know what your next job is.

So getting out of the car (even if its only like D2's out of car experience) is something that just makes sence.

in the way D:SF is going to be, you'd think Tanner is mentally ill and has a phobia of getting out of the car...

[Assassin_Hun73r]

^You didn't understand my post entirely. I said that if on foot is limited like Driver 2, I'll be ok. But they should make hotwiring much more manual. That way they keep the focus on the car itself not the outside world.
But no guns. I said the reason above.
Anyway I know DSF won't have on foot, but it'll have shift and I don't think it's that bad. WE ARE JUDGING WITHOUT EVEN SEEING IT IN ACTION. It doesn't make sense.
Although I also would have like Driver 2's stealing cars experience. But nothing more.
Still, we all know that once you introduce something everyone will go on like:
better on foot
more guns,
gta style....
and that sucks.
The driving experience in D1 is still unmatched even by today's games standards.
So I suggest that we first play the game and then judge shift. Because basically the biggest complaint that you can't change vehicle in D1 is fixed with shift. So we need to play it to judge it.

[smiler_16]

I don't think that there should be Assault rifles or anything like that (thats just going overboard in this kind of title), but I think that it would make perfect sence for the boss to hand you a pistol and tell you to keep your eyes open whilst waiting in the car outside.

[brok2]

BUT TANNER IS ON FOOT WHILE IN A CUTSCENE AND HE HOTWIRES WHILE IN A CUTSCENE. Cutscenes are just a video sort of unlike the real game where the player has to play it.

It's a pretty common thing for a player to feel cheated whenever a game shows something off in a cutscene that isn't available in the game itself. And all the drivers have always shown people walking around, drawing and shooting guns all over the place. Denying that from the player is doing them an injustice.

And look, I recognise that you are vehemently opposed to on foot and see Driver much more as a Test Drive Unlimited style game. That's your opinion and I respect that. But you're just going to have to accept that many of us, who have also been with Driver from the very beginning, see on-foot (and in some cases the inclusion of weapons) as the natural progression of the series.


if IT'S (on-foot) EVER GOING TO RETURN, REFLECTIONS HAVE TO FIGURE OUT SOME WAY TO MAKE IT A 2ND PRIORITY AND GIVE THE DRIVING THE FULL ATTENTION.

Personally I believe it's easily possible to include both on-foot and weapons without losing the focus on driving. Besides, if the driving aspect of the series has already achieved perfection (and yes, I think it did long ago) then there's nowhere else to go but up. Keep that great car handling, and now add new abilities, better storylines. Don't get trapped in the past while the entire genre you popularised moves on without you.


BUT GUNS???
No way. It'll end up like GTA. Shooting like a maniac to stop vehicles.

Only if they code it that way. I think it can be done in a way that doesn't even affect a chase mission if you choose to win through driving alone. I've already touched on this before, but there are always solutions.

There is always a solution to any game design conundrum.

[Assassin_Hun73r]

Originally posted by brok2:
It's a pretty common thing for a player to feel cheated whenever a game shows something off in a cutscene that isn't available in the game itself. And all the drivers have always shown people walking around, drawing and shooting guns all over the place. Denying that from the player is doing them an injustice.

And look, I recognise that you see Driver much more as a Test Drive Unlimited style game. That's your opinion and I respect that. But you're just going to have to accept the fact that many of us, who have also been with Driver from the very beginning, see on-foot (and in some cases the inclusion of weapons) as the natural progression of the series.

Personally I believe it's easily possible to include both on-foot and weapons without losing the focus on driving. Besides if the driving aspect of the series has already achieved perfection (and yes, I think it did long ago) then there's nowhere else to go but up. Keep that great car handling, and now add new abilities, better storylines. Don't get trapped in the past while the entire genre you popularised moves on without you.
How can you introduce weapons in driver without damaging it's name?
I mean, it would become all too easy because all you gotta do to stop the chase, is to shoot down the vehicle and the fun of the chase would be vanished.
If you introduce weapons and you restrict them to shooting only outside the vehicle, then many will say IT'S UNFINISHED.
Weapons have no place in this game. It has to be something really small, like when on a police mission for example. But nothing more. But then again I don't think they belong in the series.
As for on foot.
No matter how powerful a ps3 is, it cannot handle great driving and gta on foot. Because you would end up in a split focus as I said before. I just cannot see it happening.
All the games like gta have bad driving, so how can driver surpass that with great driving, chases, great feeling of driving and great on foot aswell?
I don't see it happening.
BTW You can improve on driving in driver by making different handling for different cars and different steering sensitivity for different cars for example.
The chases can also become much better like more aggressive AI police cars trying to outsmart you.
You know, little details like these can also put driver well ahead and onto the next generation without the use of on foot.
Well, on foot like D2 yes, and maybe more focus on the stealing of the car, and much more manual hotwiring of the cars would be really cool since it's part of the car itself.
But on foot like gta won't allow the driver feeling into the game.

[J_Frumpleberg]

Adding on foot doesn't make driving a second choice, for christs sake. Its one choice, not first or second, or third. Let the player decide.

They can still have great chase missions, its not like car chases all of a sudden disappear. And saying cutscenes don't count is kind of just splitting hairs. Obviously its not part of the gameplay, which sucks because a lot of the time developers cop-out and put the coolest parts in the cutscenes, instead of taking the time to let the player do it.

If you don't want to end a car chase by shooting the other driver, don't draw your weapon. Why does it matter how other players play the game? This is just as bad as the argument against gay marriage

[Assassin_Hun73r]

^Driver 3 is the perfect example. The driving, chases, police sucked compared to D1 which was on a previous generation console.
And I already stated and D2's on foot, but much more focus on stealing and hotwiring cars is good without damaging the series.
About cutscenes. I agree but to a point. cutscenes always look way cooler. But apart from that, I also would like much more choices. I believe in Driver, there should be decisions that affect it's all. What you do, and how you do it, will result in an outcome. That's also progression because it's part of the story.

[brok2]

I agree with you that shooting a driver to end a chase is a massive copout- but having guns in a Driver game doesn't automatically mean that'd be how it would work. There are so many different ways you could do it without that possibility ever coming up. You could make the driver too hard to hit, you could have the chase so difficult that you needed all your wits just to drive well enough (think chasing Calita in D3), you could provide a story based reason why you aren't armed at the time for that mission (say you dropped your gun in the back seat or it was hit out of your hand or whatever), Your objective could be to take the driver alive, you could be chasing him to find out where he was going, you had to keep a lower profile and not blow a cover, you could be carrying a passenger who's doing the shooting/given you orders not to shoot for a story reason, the other guy could be in a bulletproof car, etc etc etc.

You could even just not have the ability to affect the other driver with your shots, simply putting it down to one of those suspension of belief moments that we just accept about car chases. We all know it would be too dull to just shoot them, just like it would be too dull to have the transmission blow, radiator get holed, drive shaft bent, suspension fail, tyres go flat, run out of fuel, or any of a million other ways that a good chase could be compromised.

Having one thing doesn't immediately mean it will have a specific effect in a game. It's all up to how the developers implement it.

[Assassin_Hun73r]

Having one thing doesn't immediately mean it will have a specific effect in a game. It's all up to how the developers implement it.
True, however, if you introduce something and you don't make it to it's fullest, people will complain that it's unfinished.
I see your point about the story and it does make sense, but Driver's missions in D2 and 1 were always to evade the cops, or chase others without injuring them (to a point anyway). But guns not being used much for story reasons is not a bad idea.
Still I see guns in every free roam game I play (except for a few like assassins creed which is awesome http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )and guns in a free roam game like gta will always end up the same. Too many things to do and less focus on making a thing stand out.
I still want a better story with many choices and outcomes depending on the player. That's a perfect fit for driver. but guns is just asking to compete with gta since it'll have on foot, guns and vehicles and story. That's just too much fun, but much less focus on one aspect.
I believe the priority for driver should be
1) DRIVING- which involves handling
2) CARS AND MAP and AI
3) Story
Those are the 3 main aspects that makes Driver unique. Well not the story, but if the story included multiple outcomes depending on the player, then yes the story would make driver another reason to buy it.
But anyway different opinions.
All I say is that you cannot compete with gta for on foot so it's better not to try. It's better if you accel in those areas where GTA lacks. Driving's one of them And that's why I believe driver san francisco made the right choice.

[J_Frumpleberg]

GTA's on foot is not perfect. And although now Driver is better at vehicle handling, some day, Rockstar may be better, who knows, then Driver would really be SOL

[Assassin_Hun73r]

Ofcourse it's not perfect,but it's far better than other similar games.
And GTA will never have great driving like driver as long as it stays like it is.
Too many things to do will result in less detail and less simulation.
It's always like that. Action games like GTA never perfect something because they have way too many things to do.

[brok2]

Originally posted by J_Frumpleberg:
GTA's on foot is not perfect. And although now Driver is better at vehicle handling, some day, Rockstar may be better, who knows, then Driver would really be SOL

I've worried about that ever since D3- GTA has already bested Driver's multiplayer, and is well on the way to matching it's Film Director. Considering they try giving the cars different handling with each game, all they have to do is ape Driver's car handling and Reflections is utterly screwed (unless they pull something else out of the bag beforehand).

[smiler_16]

@***_Hunter:

Seriously... you think that developers can only be good at one thing...

Have you ever thought that the devs studios (Such as Reflections) can simply employ more new devs tht may be much better at the on foot development of the game whilst still keeping the good driving devs?

Besides, I think that Driver hasn't got that special handling of the car anymore, when I play D:PL everything feels a little off... for example, when I slam the brakes on the car slides a little and right at the end it just stops instantly when it looks like it is supposed to still be sliding for half a second longer... and that instant stop effect just doesn't look right...

and another thing that doesn't feel right is the fact that the car feels like it is sucked down to the ground because you never really see the car leave the floor that much like you did in previous Driver titles...


and I can't believe that people that asked for realistic driving are saying that GTA IV is bad... I like the new way of braking for instance when you car doesn't simply just come to an instant stop anymore, it actually slides, and if you use the Handbrake instead then you can be sure that you'll slide even further lol...

I think that R* got quite close to perfecting the driving style with GTAIV with the possibility to chuck your cars around the corners during a police chase thanks to the great drifting that you can do in that game.

These days if I fancy getting a police chase in a game, I play GTAIV, driver is just one of those games now that stays in the retro pile hidden away because I'm too embarassed to admit that I used to enjoy playing the Driver games....

[Assassin_Hun73r]

Seriously... you think that developers can only be good at one thing..
I never said that. I said that if you have way too many things to do like in GTA, then obviously NOTHING WILL BE IN DETAIL.
Driver on the other hand, is a game with a strong focus point. DRIVING and action in the car. If you add way too many stuff, then it'll become more gta like and it won't be as good to just drive around and do the usual driver stuff.
A game like gta, is great, but there are too many games like that and not to mention all the thngs gta has, there isn't 1 thing in big detail.


Besides, I think that Driver hasn't got that special handling of the car anymore, when I play D:PL everything feels a little off... for example, when I slam the brakes on the car slides a little and right at the end it just stops instantly when it looks like it is supposed to still be sliding for half a second longer... and that instant stop effect just doesn't look right...
Driver parallel lines?
That's agreeing with me.
It has that gta style, on foot and guns.
Look what happened. The DRIVING SUCKED COMPARED TO DRIVER 1. WHY?
because the game's focus point was lost as there's all round action but nothing in detail.

Also, gta iv had good driving, but to a certain point. The chases sucked and although the handling is good, it's still not as fun as Driver's. Even compared to Driver 1 which was on ps1, the driving in gta iv isn't as good as Driver 1.
And if you're embarassed to admit that you play driver, well that's your problem (don't mean to be rude btw). You shouldn't.
With driver san francsco, you'll feel as if you're in the car now with all the action inside the car since it has much more advantages in driving compared to gta iv
IN CAR VIEW for all cars
licensed cars
great damage
much things to smash through
Maybe the city will have more detail. It certainly looks like it has MUCH more life than previous driver titles. Maybe it'll surpass gta iv on this. I believe it will.
And if they can make great AI then I'll add that to the list aswell.
So there are many great advantages in driver that you wouldn't find in GTA like titles.

[smiler_16]

Originally posted by Assassin_Hun73r:
It has that gta style, on foot and guns.
Look what happened. The DRIVING SUCKED COMPARED TO DRIVER 1. WHY?
because the game's focus point was lost as there's all round action but nothing in detail.

So what your saying is that one dev works on everything and he has to stop improving vehicle handling to develop the on-foot features and everything else?

[Assassin_Hun73r]

^Not exactly. Why aren't you reading my full post.
The developers don't have anything to do with it.

[smiler_16]

Originally posted by Assassin_Hun73r:
^Not exactly. Why aren't you reading my full post.
The developers don't have anything to do with it.

The developers have everything to do with Driver, if it wasn't for them, there wouldn't even be a Driver game.

if you look at GTA, they have developers that specialise in particular areas, so you have texture devs that do the road textures and building textures, ect, they have modelers, which makes the shapes of things like vehicles and buildings (before thay are textured by the texture experts of course), they have animators that work on the way the character moves ect (so when you turn the animators make the characters arms move around the steering wheel and make the vehicle wheels visually turn left and right), they have mission scripters that make things happen like vehicles drive through a certain route to get to their desired location (eg, inside a warehouse).

and thats barely even any of the type of developers that are out there, there are so many different types of jobs that they have specialist devs to work on to make things perfect.

having a few devs to work on everything would be like having a computer repair guy to work on building a house... it just wouldn't make sence.

[Assassin_Hun73r]

^Ofcourse. But you still ignored the part of my post where I said that games like GTA have too many things to do, but nothing in detail. While Driver has less things to do, but much more detail. By detail I mean simulating the thing sort of and the details surrounding it.
GTA had many minigames for example but compared to the real ones, they were much simplified.
GTA also had shooting for example. Compared to real shooter games it wasn't in detail enough
GTA had driving and races. Compared to driver and other racing titles, it's nothing.
That's what I mean. In an action packed game like gta, where there isn't any focus point you'll end up with many things to do, but nothing in detail.
Driver is different since it has a focus point.
If driver will have the gta style and things to do, it'll end up like parallel lines again. Bad driving and it's less fun than D1 (in terms of driving and chases).

[J_Frumpleberg]

We're not asking Reflections to add all those mini games like pool, girlfriends, etc. All we're asking for is to be able to step out of the car and shoot stuff. Are 2 things too much to ask for?

And not to limit the guns to ****y handguns, bring out the whole arsenal

[Assassin_Hun73r]

The thing is that those are not just 2 things. Those are 2 MASSIVE things that WILL change the game's concept entirely. It will turn it more into a gta style so the problems start to emerge. Many things to do, BUT LESS FOCUSED and less detailed on one aspect which is to be expected from a game with many things to do.
This is a problem that even the games of today couldn't deal with.
It's just not possible to create a game with all the things to do in GTA + the focus points of driving like in driver for example. That's just not possible and I believe it will never be.
Even movies for example. There are ACTION movies like GTA for example. These involve a bit of everything but nothing in detail.
Then there are fighting movies (those which involve tournaments), car movies (which has the attention of cars and car action mostly.
If you have many things to do, there will be less focus on 1 thing (which happens in everything EVEN GAMES), thus less detail.

[smiler_16]

Originally posted by J_Frumpleberg:
We're not asking Reflections to add all those mini games like pool, girlfriends, etc. All we're asking for is to be able to step out of the car and shoot stuff. Are 2 things too much to ask for?

+1


I think that GTA does go a little far with the pool tables and the ability to get drunk on GTA.

just the simplicity to get out of your car shoot the person in the car across the street before he drives off, so you can get in his car, I don't see whats wrong with something basic like that???...

[InsaneDriver06]

Driver SF: If they added a Cheat that allowed you to walk as a Pedestrian or Tanner, would that satisfy the On Foot fans, even if there weren't guns, knowing guns aren't in the game?

Being realistic, there's almost no way Reflections is going to re do the game and add on foot at this late stage months before release. It's too late I'd say. A cheat on the other hand might be possible.

[BurgessDj]

Why can't they see that the majority of people want to get put of the car there for the game will have bad sales, also I can garentee there will be no secret cars unlike D2 and D3 without the ability to get out and hit a secret switch.

Also I wish people would stop comparing to GTA, GTA is a sandbox Driver isn't so even if you could get out it would not be the same as gta, I will also even bet the story line is SHORT! Driver 2 was 4 big cities they won't top that these days, games are rushed.

[J_Frumpleberg]

Obviously they aren't going to add running and gunning into SF, unless they were to do an expansion pack a year down the line... I'm mostly asking for future games to give us the freedom we've become used to, even in Driver games.

And I wouldn't be interested in being a pedestrian who can't do anything but walk and dodge cars, especially considering you can't hit them, if you stepped in front of a car, it'd go through you like you were a ghost, cause theres no ragdoll or other animation programmed for such an occasion.

If they were to let us out of the car and not let us use guns (why?), they better have something else to offer, not sure what it would be, but I don't want to spend my time talking to brainless computerized people, buying stuff, or just looking at the graphics, thinking what the game could have been

The hardest thing about implementing an on foot section would be the AI. They could use the AI from the car chases, but it might be weird. The only thing they'd have to do is tell the person when to shoot their gun. It is more of a predator AI, being that the cops would chase you everywhere instead of taking cover, but that could be interesting too warding off guys running at you from every direction with guns. Could be part of the Survival game if you stepped out of your car

[brok2]

Originally posted by J_Frumpleberg:
We're not asking Reflections to add all those mini games like pool, girlfriends, etc. All we're asking for is to be able to step out of the car and shoot stuff. Are 2 things too much to ask for?

+2


Originally posted by Assassin_Hun73r:
GTA had many minigames for example but compared to the real ones, they were much simplified.
GTA also had shooting for example. Compared to real shooter games it wasn't in detail enough
GTA had driving and races. Compared to driver and other racing titles, it's nothing.

Sure it isn't stellar, but more often than not it's simply good enough. The pool minigame provides everything I could want in one, and if the sales are anything to go by then most people are happy enough with it as it is too.

Think about this though: It's no secret that GTA leaves many areas of it's games unpolished, such as driving. This is probably the main reason why Driver has been able to survive. GTA has been able to stay ahead of the pack by researching it's competitors and taking the best features from all of them and combining them in one package.

If however, another game came along that had many of GTA's features included, but refined to a higher level with more thought put into them, then I would guarantee you it would become the new benchmark.

The real question is- who will be the one to do it first? GTA's weaknesses are in full view, and just waiting to be overtaken.

[smiler_16]

Originally posted by brok2:
If however, another game came along that had many of GTA's features included, but refined to a higher level with more thought put into them, then I would guarantee you it would become the new benchmark.

The real question is- who will be the one to do it first? GTA's weaknesses are in full view, and just waiting to be overtaken.

+1

[Assassin_Hun73r]

Originally posted by brok2:
The real question is- who will be the one to do it first? GTA's weaknesses are in full view, and just waiting to be overtaken.
Well that WOULD be a problem, but that will not happen.
Because it's simply not possible with ps3's technology. It's not enough. So you have to choose.
Either a GTA like game, or a focused game.
In the future it MAY be possible to create a gta like game, but with strong focus points and well polished stuff. Although I HIGHLY doubt that. Why?
Because you have to put so much time and effort that money wise (for the company) wouldn't be beneficial and no company would want that.
Then there's the other problem.
PLATFORMS. They're not that powerful enough yet.

Still in the end, even if there will be a polished GTA like game in the future, it will still lack in some areas because you cannot do everything right in a gta like game since there's way too much going on.
Driver on the other hand, will become like gta with guns in it and it will loose it's focus point, even if the driving experience is there.
They have to figure out a way to make it more to the point, but much less GTA like otherwise we'll be comparing gta vs driver and THAT'S NOT WHAT IT WAS MEANT FOR since 1 game promotes violence and action, and the other promoted DRIVING in undercover. Guns in driver may turn it into gta. Just looks at D3 and parallel lines.
The driving is not good enough. It lacked many things because it lost it's point.
As I said before, this happens in everything even movies and paintings. There are those with a focus point and others with just a bit of everything but nothing in detail.
So going on by today's technology, it's not possible to create an action game like gta, but with strong features like driving in driver.

[J_Frumpleberg]

But Driver IS an action game, dealing with undercover cops and crooks, who have guns, and deal in all kinds of blackmarket stuff

Obviously the console can handle it, GTA4 already does this stuff, a little bit of polishing isn't going to melt the consoles circuitry

[Assassin_Hun73r]

Driver is not actually an action game. It's mission based driving game not an all round action game like gta.


Obviously the console can handle it, GTA4 already does this stuff, a little bit of polishing isn't going to melt the consoles circuitry
GTA iv pushed the ps3's limit too far already. That's like asking to grab gta iv and ADD 5 TIMES THE DETAIL IN EVERYTHING IT HAS. Surely it's impossible.
Also if someday, this could be achieved, there would be too much detail that it would take the developers ages to perfect the game like that. And money wise for the company wouldn't be worth it.
BTW, I wish that SOMEDAY we could get a game like that, but I highly doubt it because that's like asking for way too much.

BTW just to clarify, I really loved GTA IV even though I mention bad things about it.

[PeaceMaker_101]

It's true that every piece of work in any medium lacks detail if it branches off in many directions. However, sometimes, having an experience with more than just one focus can be a good thing. Otherwise, why do people enjoy GTA so much? Why was a game like Deus Ex so highly praised? These game franchises tried to combine gameplay in ways that made them fresh for gamers. Instead of perfecting one idea, over and over again, they decided to be more creative and use existing ideas in different ways.

I don't necessarily think that Driver 1 has the most realistic driving in any game; there are plenty of vehicle simulators on the PC that can probably perform way better in that area. Driver was more exaggerated, much like those car chases in movies tend to be. If the experience was supposed to be realistic, then your car would be rendered useless.

There might not even be many areas left to take with ONLY the driving itself. DSF is great because it takes the best parts from a game that is more than 10 years old, while also taking in today's technology. It's kind of a remake, in that sense.

My point is that the Driver franchise is dead if every Driver game beyond DSF is purely about driving. Eventually, after being satisfied with DSF, people will want a new experience, NOT a million more D1 clones. If that is the case, then Ubisoft made a big mistake by purchasing Reflections and its franchise.

[gforeal]

Originally posted by PeaceMaker_101:
...the Driver franchise is dead if every Driver game beyond DSF is purely about driving. Actually it would just start get carried away. Even though I love the Driver series, I still think they should know when to quit, and infact, I think this needs to be one of their final Driver games.. Or eventually it will get old.

[InsaneDriver06]

Reflections has exceptional skill at making cars feel authentic and fun compared to most games (even the over-rated Gran Turismo).

A Franchise may grow stale, but driving never should, if it offers thrills beyond what we've seen in any driving game before it.

Driv3r felt slow and dull in part due to the frame rate and limitations of the game engine. Remember driving down the over-wide streets with nothing happening, all too often? DPL actually was much faster, requiring quicker reactions and being alert, thanks to the heavy traffic. Handling was nice too, crashes underwhelming.

[brok2]

Well, DPL had the potential to be much faster, though it mucked it up as most of the time you were driving way under your top speed to weave inbetween the sea of cars on the road. I always thought that driving your floaty 70's muscle car at top speed down the wide streets in D1 and avoiding other cars when entering a slide was a constant danger took far more skill than anything in D:PL.

And I don't want Driver to finish up until it bloody well gets it right again.

[J_Frumpleberg]

Driver is not actually an action game. It's mission based driving game not an all round action game like gta.
So running from the cops in souped up muscle cars is not action anymore?

Driver should never stop, look at the physics, how can you deny that? We need a good car chase game on the market, and I am not buying NFS, I gave up on that franchise after Underground (although that was a good game), tired of racing games, its all about the thrill of the chase!

Even as bad as Driver may get, I don't think it'll ever be as bad as NFS

[Assassin_Hun73r]

^Well, it is action, but not all round action like gta. It's action inside the car mostly.
And I also think that Driver shouldn't stop now.
It could continue with new ideas as car chase games like driver are none actually. Driver is the only 1.
So it can continue to improve on what it has, and include other ideas.
I really like the idea where the player's actions and how he does in missions, effects the story.
I mean that would be awesome for driver. Since you're the driver, if you fail, something happens, your decisions will effect the story around you aswell and if you succeed, you get the praise sort of. This could take driver into the next level. Look at how well games with multiple endings can go (IF DONE RIGHT THAT IS).

[InsaneDriver06]

To keep Driver fresh, after DSF, unless they really have more to add to Tanner's storyline, we need an entirely fresh new story and main character. Maybe a "Create a character" like Fallout 3.

In the end, the cars of Driver are the real stars of the game, not the characters.

[Assassin_Hun73r]

^Well, John Tanner is part of Driver because HE IS THE DRIVER. So Tanner is part of the stars of driver along with the cars.
They can extend Tanner's playability by introducing new crime stories. Tanner is an undercover cop so the stories around him can be varied while keeping the main character there.

[brok2]

I wish they'd just ditch him at the end of D:SF- preferrably through some kind of definitive death after bringing jericho down once and for all. Their feud was never that interesting, and Tanner himself is a 32 bit character stuck in the Seventh Generation. When you've got characters like Niko Bellic, Vito Scarletta and Tommy Angelo in existence with very believable character flaws, eccentricities, ambitions and weaknesses, a character like Tanner (at least, the Tanner as we know him from D1-3) is a mere cardboard cutout by comparison. Unless he's a completely different kind of guy in D:SF, he needs to be put out to pasture, to make way for a character that's more interesting, lively, and empathetic.

[Assassin_Hun73r]

Well, as a chartacter he was never that interesting, I hope they develop him better this time. But to get rid of him is just not right.

[smiler_16]

I think Tanner does lack Personality...


in D1 & D2 I thought he had the right look, but in D3, he lost even that... for some reason reflections decided to get rid of the cool cop image, and not give Tanner any personality...

and obviously some of the most important things in any game is character personality, music, ect.

[BurgessDj]

Here for all the people that say it will wreck the driving experience if you get out of car

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4773/needforspeedhotpursuitp.jpg (http://img201.imageshack.us/i/needforspeedhotpursuitp.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

It's not the face that you cant get out that makes it bad its the fact that you COULD before but now u cant. People keep saying if you could people would maon about how bad it was, however i have a ***** i have better things to do then sit there and say "he walks bad and shoots bad they should of added 135354PTI ACF Technology" i love saints row and look how he handles out the car.

[brok2]

Er, what?

[Assassin_Hun73r]

Originally posted by BurgessDj:
Here for all the people that say it will wreck the driving experience if you get out of car

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/4773/needforspeedhotpursuitp.jpg (http://img201.imageshack.us/i/needforspeedhotpursuitp.jpg/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

It's not the face that you cant get out that makes it bad its the fact that you COULD before but now u cant. People keep saying if you could people would maon about how bad it was, however i have a ***** i have better things to do then sit there and say "he walks bad and shoots bad they should of added 135354PTI ACF Technology" i love saints row and look how he handles out the car.
What?
In NFS YOU CAN'T GET OUT OF YOUR CAR.
As for saints row.
It doesn't even have good driving experience.
Driver 1 on ps1 EASILY DOMINATES IT in driving and fun in driving.
Also, on foot was bad in driver. Simple. For a reboot, it had to be this way. They had to reboot the series with what they were famous for. DRIVING. Not on foot.

[J_Frumpleberg]

Wait... you have a *****?

[InsaneDriver06]

Ugh. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif In response to a few or so posts up. And I don't see the connection to NFSHP, other than it's a remake updated version.

Anyway, Saints Row is really just a GTA3 spin off. One which I find difficult to enjoy, it's too cartoony for my style of gaming. Same thing With GodFather 2. That game is awful IMO, but some people love it. If that's what kind of on foot Driver SF was going to have, I'm all for removing on foot... Even so-

Had the on foot been on par with a FPS, or Fallout 3, then I'd welcome it. Otherwise, no more GTA styled on foot is wanted in the Driver series for this gamer. Give me something more serious, realistic. (Like the bank street shootout from the movie HEAT, starring De Niro, Kilmer, Tom Sizemore, Al Pacino). That's how I want my action on foot, but with FPS controls.

[brok2]

I find Saint's Row kind of charming, but can't stand the Godfather games and I have no idea why- they handle so similarly. It might be because over the top physics work better for a game set today rather than in the 40s, plus Mafia gave me all the Godfathering I'd ever need and more. I'd bet anyone that enjoys the godfather never tried Mafia...

[InsaneDriver06]

I read Mafia's cars were very average and slow, but the on foot action was great. How are the cars Brok2, compared to the Driver series, say Driver 2's Havana 50's styled cars?

[brok2]

Well I'm doing a bit of bashing around in Havana at the moment, and those old hulks in D2 actually handle exactly the same as the muscle cars in Chicago. Pretty funny really, not that I'm complaining, that's for sure.

Mafia went for super hardcore realism for driving, so yeah, all the cars except the racecars were quite slow. unless they had room to build up speed (roaring over the bridge was always pretty hair raising though...).

The racetrack lavel was actually quite notorious for it's high difficulty. If you rolled you actually killed yourself because back then they didn't have rollbars.

I didn't get many 'thrills' from driving in Mafia, but as far as making me believe I was in a living and breathing 30's world, having the cars handle the way they did absolutely nailed the immersion. Besides, driving was never actually annoying. When guns werent being fired between cars it could actually be quite peaceful driving around. Especially in the countryside.

[InsaneDriver06]

I'd be interested in seeing how that plays out, Mafia 2's slow, realistic cars. Then again, too much realism isn't always a good thing, as Matt_John Frumpleberg has pointed out in the past.

[brok2]

I was talking about Mafia 1's cars. Mafia 2's cars are faster, given that it's the 40's/50s and you have Hot Rods and bigger engines etc.

And I'm usually much more about fun than realism too, though I see Mafia as sort of like a time machine rather than a game. You don't play it for the driving, you play it for the story and to be a character living in this other time. No other game has really quite captured another period quite like this.

[InsaneDriver06]

Originally posted by brok2:
I was talking about Mafia 1's cars. Mafia 2's cars are faster, given that it's the 40's/50s and you have Hot Rods and bigger engines etc.


Brok, is there an interior dash view? That would be very cool if there was. Most on foot vehicle hybrid games fail to deliver an interior dash view (see Just Cause 2, Mercenaries 2, Driv3r, DPL, GTA4, True Crime, Godfather, etc...)

Relieved DSF is finally delivering my favorite vehicle view as though you're "in the game".

[brok2]

To be honest I couldn't say because I don't know. It defaulted to 3rd person and I happily played like that through the entire game. I think I may have seen screenshots at one point of an exterior dash view, but I'm not sure. The nicely detailed speedometer, odometer, fuel gauge etc are displayed in 3rd person view, I suppose if there was a dash view they'd be in different spots but yeah, I don't know.

[InsaneDriver06]

I haven't seen any IDV's(int dash view) screenshots so I'd guess no in Mafia 2.

On Topic:
A chocolate cake without the chocolate is suggesting the basics are there/driving, but not the icing on the cake, which would be the on foot. I'd agree that walking is icing. It's nice to have, but doesn't break the game if it's not on there. The cake still stands on its own.

[J_Frumpleberg]

But (analogy or not) chocolate cake is disgusting without the icing, and I would say its just a brownie at that point, but that'd be an insult to brownies, because they are way better than icing-less cakes. Thats chocolate bread at that point, and still not sweet enough.

Vanilla cake is ok.

[brok2]

Originally posted by InsaneDriver06:
I haven't seen any IDV's(int dash view) screenshots so I'd guess no in Mafia 2.


Again- I was talking about Mafia 1. I know for a fact Mafia 2 doesn't have interior dash, but does have exterior dash.

And I think Reflections are trying to re-bake the great vanilla cake Driver 1 was back in the day, but knows we all expect a bit more than just vanilla these days, so instead of making the effort to go to the store and get chocolate icing, they've gone out and tried serving the same vanilla cake with a cherry on top called shift.

We shall see on release if the game is an easy premise to... swallow.
<pre class="ip-ubbcode-code-pre">(sorry) </pre>

[InsaneDriver06]

An exterior front hood dash view is better than nothing, thanks for the info just in case I get around to trying Mafia 2.

[Corrigan_NYCPD]

BUT GUNS???
No way. It'll end up like GTA. Shooting like a maniac to stop vehicles. Where's the car chase fun that driver is know for in that?



I just can't understand you people why don't you want guns in the game nor even the posibility to leave the car, I think is a downgrade, what's going on here? if driver was always the mature alternative to gta..what's wrong with use a ****ing weapon to take down some jericho bodyguards? isn't GTA IV a total succes?? whats more, I love driver because it give me nice chases, story line and guns..but specially for been more realistic than GTA.
And dont be idiots, Guns not killed driver 3 it was the awfull controls implementation.
If this guys developing DSF says that are not add adding guns and on foot roam becouse they want to polish more the driving aspect, so they are useless, just look at GTA IV, Mafia I and II, Driver Parallel Lines, all nice game where cars and guns are well implemented together.
Also the first Driver had no guns because the very limitations of the system hardware.
I'm very disappointment with the current work, it's a shame..good city, for first time real cars (would leave GTA in a seriously complicated situaton)..but all the things that makes a Diver game a good game, will dissapear (story line, freedom, reality, even driving because doesnt matter if you are bad driving because you can "shift" to another car), after all there is a lot of racing games out there, if you don't like guns then go and play need for speed or test drive unlimited -- I agree the title of the post, a betrayal to Driver die-hard fans that enjoyed Driver 2, 3 and PL.

[J_Frumpleberg]

Yea its a shame they removed it, it would've been sweet, now it seems so many gameplay possibilities have disappeared.

They also removed motorcycles, boats (who cares really, though with work and traffic this could've been much improved as GTA neglects this section as well, needs some innovation though)

Driver 1 made car games relevant, chases > races
Driver 2 added on foot
Driver 3 added guns
DPL added two eras
Driver San Fransisco steps back somewhere between 1 and 2...

[InsaneDriver06]

Corrigan_NYCPD

I don't think we have a choice at this point about guns or on foot, so I'm going to accept and trust that Reflections knows what's best for its Driver series, them being the ones that have to break their tails to make the game work.

Fans don't always get the game they want, but I'm hopeful DSF will still be a lot of fun, even without on foot (which honestly was never that great in the Driver series compared to other games like... (ahem) Fallout 3 or Batman: Arkham Asylum.

[Assassin_Hun73r]

Originally posted by Corrigan_NYCPD:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">BUT GUNS???
No way. It'll end up like GTA. Shooting like a maniac to stop vehicles. Where's the car chase fun that driver is know for in that?



I just can't understand you people why don't you want guns in the game nor even the posibility to leave the car, I think is a downgrade, what's going on here? if driver was always the mature alternative to gta..what's wrong with use a ****ing weapon to take down some jericho bodyguards? isn't GTA IV a total succes?? whats more, I love driver because it give me nice chases, story line and guns..but specially for been more realistic than GTA.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Downgrade?
Look at other aspects that DSF is offering
Much bigger city
Much more things and life
More pedestrians
LICENSED CARS
OVER 120 to choose from
INTERIOR DASH VIEW FOR ALL CARS
Man, I really thought that these improvements were good enough even though it has no on foot.
ON FOT IN DRIVER has to work different than D3 and DPL and GTA. Otherwise, it'll be arcade like GTA and Driver was always more realistic.
And GTA IS A SUCCESS TRUE. BUT IT'S BECAUSE IT'S A DIFFERENT GAME.
It focuses more on foot than other games, and yeah on foot in gta iv is pure great. BUT THE DRIVING AND CHASES AREN'T EVEN AS NEAR AS DRIVER 1 ON PS1.

There are circumstances that you can do with driver that can inculde on foot, and shootouts, WITHOUT DAMAGING THE DRIVING and chases.
But not GTA STYLE where you are completely free.
Driver has a story and you have to keep with it unlike GTA where you are completely free.
So on foot has to be different if it was to be added.


Also, insane driver is correct. It wasn't up to use. Maybe if reflections thought that it's better for now, then maybe it is better for now. We just have to wait and see.

[InsaneDriver06]

I agree, GTA's driving can't touch Driver's.

Ideally, If I could get a Driver game with a FPS styled on foot with the option for a 3PV camera and FPV, with on foot action in a realistic, gritty, fast paced style of gun play and running, that would work for me.

Till then, looking forward to DSF quite a bit.

[J_Frumpleberg]

More pedestrians would be an improvement if we could run over them

Driver has always had take a ride mode, you don't have to stick to the story. Many people didn't bother with the story at all

The bad chases in GTA are a gameplay choice. Its annoying to have cops constantly chasing you around killing your cars, not being able to stop and take in the surroundings and explore. Its like being chased by a nest of hornets. Now, since Driver is not much of an exploration game, it works, but can still get annoying.

Its like speeding in GTA, or hitting other cars (not cops), they let you get away with it because its annoying in a game to be persecuted for the smallest infraction

[InsaneDriver06]

Originally posted by J_Frumpleberg:
Its like speeding in GTA, or hitting other cars (not cops), they let you get away with it because its annoying in a game to be persecuted for the smallest infraction

Especially when your main goal is to finish the next mission when your hands are already full fighting off the enemies.