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View Full Version : When will the Devs get the co-op right?



XxCH0NGxX
12-30-2007, 07:45 PM
I was trying to play co-op elmination tonight.
Map: Fort Night
Camo: Black

Soon as the match started, I went a found a nice little spot to post up. The map is so dark, visibility is barely 20-30 meters. I placed the drone ahead of me in order to watch what the enemy would do. It took them 2 minutes, and they were on top of me shooting the hell out of me. I could barely even see my own character. If it wasn't for the red diamonds, I wouldn't have been able to see the enemy.

So I ask these two questions to the Devs of GRAW 2....... How is it possible for a human being, who does not have NVG's, to be able to know my exact location, and spot me in complete darkness from 30 meters away?

I now ask you my second question. How many Ghost Recon titles since Island Thunder, will it take you guys to get the co-op right?

This is supposed to be Ghost Recon. How can I be a ghost if the enemy can see me from beyond my own range of view, in complete darkness?

I really do hope, and wish that the original makers of Ghost Recon and Ghost Recon Island Thunder are working on the next title. I have full confidence in them to get the co-op done right, how it was on the original. When being a ghost, meant being a ghost. When you could lay in a night time map and not be seen by the enemy. When the enemy could walk up with in 10 feet of your position, and not even know you were there. When you could move through a night time map with out everyone and their dog being able to spot you from ridiculous distances.

I don't know what you guys were thinking when you made the past few titles. But I really really hope you guys learn from your mistakes. co-op is no fun if the damn enemy can see me in 95% pure darkness from over 20 meters away. There is no fun in that. If you are going to continue to make games as poor as this, at least have the common courtesy to acually place night vision goggles on the enemy, so at least there is some realism as to why they can see me so easily in the dark.

I'm tired of complaining about this. We have all complained to you guys about this on GRAW1, we complained to you on GR2, and on Summit Strike. This is supposed to be GHOST RECON, not HAY, I'M OVER HERE, COME SHOOT ME, I KNOW YOU CAN SEE ME WITH YOUR MAGICAL NIGHT VISION EYES GHOST RECON ADVANCED WARFIGHTER ******ATION 2: The game where you have no where to hide, because the enemy always knows where you are.

MeanMF
12-30-2007, 11:35 PM
So let me get this right... You want a game where you can see the enemy but they can't see you? That doesn't sound very challenging.

AI BLUEFOX
12-31-2007, 10:40 AM
Maybe the AI are turning their brightness up to 10! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XBGJackrabbit
12-31-2007, 02:57 PM
I agree 100% It's ridiculous how most of the ememy can spot you in certain conditions. I mind you thought that they spotted you a bit easily as well on GR2...the ememy on GRAW mind you seem like super soldiers(apart from shooting though)....

Here goes but how aboot pinching from the chenobol levels in COD4, lying sometimes a few feet away from the ememy got me gripped, I'm not saying give nothing but the guille suit to us but apply camo techniques similar to this and MGS3...(Snakes camo matching background, you know)

Maybe you could give guards/scouts/spotters binoculars to scan the field/mexican village that we're going though, not all of them though, that'll be stupid....

MxSkanduhLESxM
12-31-2007, 03:33 PM
that's why i dont play that game mode. .I HATE playing against AI.

they are always toooo smart or TOOO dumb. I have to think it is impossible to make AI work well.

The only way to have fun and really know if you are a "ghost" is to play against other humans.

maybe in the next game they can make a really large map.. and have a ghost mode where 2 players (with silent rifles) have to try and complete objectives/and kill all enemy soldiers. The enemy can only use unsilenced terrorist type weapons and maybe have flashlights strapped to the guns (reminiscent of splinter cell's mp. but with more bad guys.. same 3rd person view).

the enemy players that kill the ghosts become the ghosts the next round.

maybe it can be a game of 2 vs.16.. but it would be better if they could up it to 2 vs 22.

i think this would be fun.
trying to protect objectives with AK's around a really large map.

MeanMF
12-31-2007, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by XBGJackrabbit:
Here goes but how aboot pinching from the chenobol levels in COD4, lying sometimes a few feet away from the ememy got me gripped
That was ridiculous.. I'd much rather they try to make it realistic instead of perpetuating Hollywood myths about snipers.

Trick502
12-31-2007, 03:42 PM
I don't really think it's the AI, though it's not pefrect. Try playing Co-op objective stealth recon. It's good practice for applying stealth techniques.
People complain about GRAW's AI and wether the game it tactical enough but i really believe it's up to the player.


But I got to admit sometimes they have super vision Clark Kent would envy

XxCH0NGxX
12-31-2007, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by MeanMF:
So let me get this right... You want a game where you can see the enemy but they can't see you? That doesn't sound very challenging.

Yeah, that's exactly what I want. Simple physics.
NVG=see in the dark.......NO NVG=can't see in the dark (MeanMF, why do you think our forces use NVG's? So they have the advantage over the enemy.)

By me having night vision, and the enemy not having NVG's, and me being in the dark, and they being in the dark: should equal...me seeing them, and them not seeing me. That's the advantage of having night vision goggles.

The simple fact that even when I'm using my NVG's, I can't see the enemy, but they can see me when they don't have NVG's is flat out ******ed. It has nothing to do with whether it's challenging or not. It's got to do with simple physics.

Playing coop on night maps on this game isn't even fun. Used to be fun on the original and on Island Thunder.

MeanMF
12-31-2007, 04:47 PM
Maybe you need to adjust your brightness a little, because you can see a lot without NVGs. Do you think they're out patrolling in pitch black where they can't see anything? Try staying out of their line of sight instead of relying on them not seeing you pretending to be a bush. It works really well.

WhiteKnight77
12-31-2007, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by MeanMF:
So let me get this right... You want a game where you can see the enemy but they can't see you? That doesn't sound very challenging.

The US military uses NVGs yet you saying that it is not challenging. Have you ever worn NVGs? Have you ever tried to shoot with NVGs? Have you ever flown an airplane or helicopter with NVGs? If you haven't, how can you tell if it is not a challenge to fight with them on. NVGs have been a part of RSE games since Rainbow Six first debuted in 1998. Chongs's wanting to use them isn't unrealistic.

ubermoob
12-31-2007, 05:52 PM
I play a lot of Firefight. Firefight was my favorite game mode in OGR. Mainly because I had no internet back then. So for me co-op was the next best thing.
Unfortunately the AI hasn't gotten any better since the original game. The AI has definitely changed but it really hasn't gotten any better. If anything it has gotten worse in some ways and better in others ?
The AI tends to see you the very second you come into their POTENTIAL line of sight. Potential line of sight means that they are not looking in your direction but if they did happen to look in your direction they could see you. This PLOS extends to times when you are halfway across the map on Station behind a fence with only the tiniest little sliver of your outfit showing through a single crack and the rebel has an aK-47 with no scope but hey you are in his PLOS so What The HELL does it matter that he couldn't possibly actually %ucking see you right ?
PLOS or Potential Line Of Sight is half the problem with the AI.
A further 1/4 of the problem with the AI is the way they can stand 20' away from you and empty a clip at you and not hit you sometimes and then at times they will begin prefiring as they race around a blind corner at you or headshot you with a scopeless weapon from an impossible distance.
The final 1/4 of the problem with the AI to make the whole 100% effed up total is the way they now randomly spawn around the map. They did not do that in OGR. In OGR they were always present on the map following patrol patterns.
IN OGR it was a true challenge to finish a game of Firefight with the AI set to the max. In these games it is easy as long as you don't get caught by a random spawn behind you http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

MeanMF
12-31-2007, 06:20 PM
Originally posted by WhiteKnight77:
NVGs have been a part of RSE games since Rainbow Six first debuted in 1998. Chongs's wanting to use them isn't unrealistic.
I'm not saying they're unrealistic. I'm saying that having patrolling enemies be completely blind and deaf without them is unrealistic. If it's truly pitch black out and too dark for them to see anything, then why are they patrolling at all? If anything they need to make the AI harder, not handicap them further by completely blinding them. Splinter Cell offers plenty of opportunities to sneak up on unwitting prey with bad hearing and tunnel vision.

XxCH0NGxX
12-31-2007, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by MeanMF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WhiteKnight77:
NVGs have been a part of RSE games since Rainbow Six first debuted in 1998. Chongs's wanting to use them isn't unrealistic.
I'm not saying they're unrealistic. I'm saying that having patrolling enemies be completely blind and deaf without them is unrealistic. If it's truly pitch black out and too dark for them to see anything, then why are they patrolling at all? If anything they need to make the AI harder, not handicap them further by completely blinding them. Splinter Cell offers plenty of opportunities to sneak up on unwitting prey with bad hearing and tunnel vision. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one ever said anything about having the enemy be completely blind or deaf. Don't even know where you got the deaf part from. And what do NVG's have to do with hearing? Man you got some weird things going on in your head. Maybe the reason they are patrolling in the dark, is because that is where the enemy likes to be. In the dark, where people with out nightvision would have a really hard time finding them. You know, cover of darkness. If they make the AI harder, then they will be across the map, behind the wall, shooting up into the air, and knowing exactly where the rounds are going to hit. Oh yeah, did I mention, if the AI is harder, they don't have to have line of sight to see you. They magically know where you are. That would be harder. Right now, they are just super human. If the AI gets harder, they will be beyond that. They will have eyes on the back of their heads. Seriously, why make them harder? Why not make them more realistic, then go from there. At least that way, they won't see you from across the map, they won't see you in complete darkness, and they wont such a good aim from across the map with an AK47 without a sight.

it's ridiculous for the enemy to be able to see as far as they do in amount of ambient light that is available. Let me dumb that statement down alittle bit for you. The enemy in the game CURRENTLY can see very long distances, and it DOES NOT MATTER whether it is day or night. We on the other hand, have to crank up the brightness setting on our televisions in order to see them on a night map. In real life, if you are walking out in the woods under a half moon or less, and walking down a trail, so there is a slight break in the trees over head, you will have the ability to see at the most 20 meters away. In order to distinguish human from bush, the target would have to be no more than 10 meters away. In GRAW 2, the enemy can make that calculation from well beyond 20 meters which is HUMANLY IMPOSSIBLE.

And even if there is a FULL MOON out, under the trees, your visibility is no more than 30 meters at the most. Maybe more, depending on any cloud cover. Under no moon at all, it would be impossible to see any farther than 10 meters at best.

They really need to add NVG's, scopes, binoculars, and UAV's for the enemy for coop on GRAW 2 to even be the least bit believable. Like the other dude said earlier, its ******ed that they can spot you from across the map when you are behind a fence, and only your shoulder is visible through the crack, and they have a freakin AK47 with no sight what so ever.

OUT FOX EM
12-31-2007, 09:48 PM
Not sure what TV you're using Chong, but that might be part of the problem. On 0 brightness I can see as far as the XBox will draw. I actually don't use nightvision, or even turn up the brightness for that matter. So it seems to me they would need to make the maps much darker for what you're saying to come into play. As it stands right now, without nightvision, I can see them. Why wouldn't they be able to see me too?

I'll agree the AI needs some work, but I have to disagree on their ability to see you being "super-human."

MeanMF
01-01-2008, 12:39 AM
Yup..If they're looking at you, then they can see you. If it's too dark to see without your NVG then you have your TV set too dark. None of the maps are supposed to be pitch black. You get an advantage from using the NVG, but there's plenty of ambient light to see you moving around. They're not wandering around in the dark just for kicks - they're patrolling.

The problem is that once they spot you, they pretty much just stand there shooting. And they mostly have really bad aim and almost never hit you with the first shot. They're not superhuman at all, and they're relatively easy to beat even on the highest level of difficulty. It should be next to impossible to solo the co-op missions against decent AI (1 against 40? Who's Superman again?), and yet it's pretty easy to do in this game.

OUT FOX EM
01-01-2008, 09:16 PM
Originally posted by MeanMF:
Yup..If they're looking at you, then they can see you. If it's too dark to see without your NVG then you have your TV set too dark. None of the maps are supposed to be pitch black. You get an advantage from using the NVG, but there's plenty of ambient light to see you moving around. They're not wandering around in the dark just for kicks - they're patrolling.

The problem is that once they spot you, they pretty much just stand there shooting. And they mostly have really bad aim and almost never hit you with the first shot. They're not superhuman at all, and they're relatively easy to beat even on the highest level of difficulty. It should be next to impossible to solo the co-op missions against decent AI (1 against 40? Who's Superman again?), and yet it's pretty easy to do in this game.

Well they are supposed to be Green Berets. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I don't know about 1 vs. 40, but I'd put my money on a team of 5 Green Berets vs. 40+ insurgents.

Hell, make it 100. Just saying. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif