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View Full Version : How line of sight and the compass, plus runners, broke this game



morvak2011
06-14-2011, 10:33 AM
For anyone new to this game, please read. This is not a typical rant.

When I first got this game I was excited to play it. Finally, a great stealth-based game! Reminded me of the days of Thief series.

I played the game how it was MEANT (not designed) to be played - stealthy.

Then I noticed people running around on the rooftops. I laughed at them then, and still do today. Really? Rooftops? I guess you're right. Assassins did run around in full public view killing their targets. That's how the Navy Seals operate after all.

These players, combined with the developers, have turned this game into another FPS game.

But what really broke the game is line of sight and the compass.

There is absolutely no need to use the Blend or Morph ability. And there is no need to blend into crowds either.

Why? Because of a glitch. Which is not really a glitch but actually a design that you really can't design your way out of.

Line of sight.

If your target is in a crowd, all you have to do is get out of their sight, then wait for that crowd to pass your line of sight. As soon as the actual character model controlled by the player passes your line of sight, you know that's them because the compass will light up bright blue. Tada! Wow, such stealth!

Or, the cheesy way to do it, especially if the player is in a blended group standing still, is to go onto the roof near them, or around a corner, and move your character back and forth along the edge of said roof/corner (line of sight edge) until you see which model causes your compass to light up. Again, tremendous game design here.

It's not as difficult as it may sound. It takes seconds. Try it next time.

It's bad enough that the game has been taiolored to runners and has been turned into melee-Quake,but with this "glitch" there is no need to use morph or blend.

So instead of equipping Blend, I use some other stupid ability. I stopped using morph.

Now I run around like all the other players as we turn this game into Quake with knives and I finish in the top 3 all the time, no longer at the bottom as I try to force myself to play a stealth game.

So the game is like this:
Run to first target!!
Listen for whispers and run away or try to stun
Run to next target!!
Repeat and rinse.

The only strategy in this game is trying to chase down people that run, or playing against people that don't fully understand the above or how to play. LIke playing against people who don't know to listen for whispers. Yea, that's Pro! Or playing against people who don't understand line of sight and why the compass lights up. Pro!

And by the looks of E3 I won't be buying Revelations since you can still run around on rooftops.

I'm sure many realy assassins ran around on the rooftops in broad daylight, or any time.

I expect too much I guess.

LOL.

whattafool
06-14-2011, 10:37 AM
Morph and blender suck anyway.

Arathar
06-14-2011, 10:39 AM
"How cynical people who can't just enjoy the game for what it is and not point out every flaw broke this game"

persiateddy95
06-14-2011, 10:44 AM
I stopped reading when I saw you complaining about LOS.

EscoBlades
06-14-2011, 10:49 AM
I usually don't say this...but cry some more!

Do you know anything about game balance? Because if you did, you wouldn't make this rant.

I suggest you think about it. If you still have no clue what we are all talking about, report back here and we'll enlighten you.

machinista
06-14-2011, 10:51 AM
Holy cow, I'd forgotten how easy it was to become insufferably self-important on an internet forum.

wabashop2011
06-14-2011, 10:52 AM
Adapt
Adapt
Adapt.

Nothing is wrong with LOS.

thergbcolor
06-14-2011, 10:53 AM
It smells like troll in here.

lynx_1985
06-14-2011, 11:03 AM
I admit you get some runners every now and again but to call it another COD/FPS is stupid. Yes runners pop up but I still see players playing stealthly.

If LOS did not work as it does the game would be completely unbalanced in my opinion, if it didn't exist it would become near impossible to select your target eg from a morphed group or just a sheer 50/50 guess in terms of the use of blender.

YourInnate
06-14-2011, 11:04 AM
What gives you the right to say how the game was meant to be played? The game is about scoring as many points as possible in the allotted time, similar to say... Super Mario. The fact is, to score the most points possible, you have to use every second of every match wisely, and if that means sprinting to your next target to get there faster than the other guy who is waiting for the same target to come to him, then yes, you need to run.

Quit *****ing and learn to play.

P.S. Let me emphasize how much you have no right to tell us how this game was meant to be played.

obliviondoll
06-14-2011, 11:12 AM
At least it's easy to find my usual answer now.

Originally posted by obliviondoll:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKjqG__VQKE
Skip to 2:10 and listen to the "three pillars"

"And the third pillar is all that free movement aspect of the franchise" - Stephane Beaudet - Creative Director for multiplayer.

Pretty sure running was meant to be part of the game.

Lord_Poseidon
06-14-2011, 11:28 AM
Blender and morph are great for fooling people who don't take advantage of LOS. Those who do are often incredibly easy to spot.

You duck around a corner and then come back out a second later? I'll see it, provided I'm not focused on my target or someone else I suspect is after me.

You veer off course to put a column between yourself and my blend group? Yep, saw that, too.

If you just watch for people behaving like this, your success rate at blending will skyrocket. Because if you have a defensive ability you can use now, there's a good chance you can stun the LOS-ing pursuer. If not, you can run before he gets to you--assuming you see him in time, of course--or try for a naked stun if you're feeling lucky. And those people who don't know how to LOS are probably going to be the people who power walk straight toward you; dealing with them shouldn't be a problem.

Bottom line, LOS is not some all-powerful tool that guarantees you a kill. If it guarantees anything, it's conspicuous behavior.

Also, I'm a bit of a runner. I'll make a mad dash to close the distance between myself and my target, but I always stop before entering line of sight. I also try to play it safe when I have multiple murderers after me, only breaking cover when my target is very close... For people who run and roof nonstop, I don't even try for a clean kill. I just shoot them. Point blank, if at all possible.

Gah, Goliath post about myself. Sorry about that. I only use my own experiences as examples because those are the experiences I know best. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Morvak
06-14-2011, 11:56 AM
As I said, the game is broken. Line of sight and rooftop broke this game.

It's quake with melee. And it is not balanced.

You are right , i bought this game but I am not allowed to complain.

The game was meant to be played stealthy. Yes I know the game is Prince of Persia meets Quake and that running was designed. But the whole PREMISE is stealth and assassinate.

If I wanted to play prince of Persia multiplayer I would.

Face it. The designers f****d up. Sorry if some if you fanbois can't see past your rose colored glasses.

The game is ridiculous now. Everyone is on the rooftops. Don't give me only a couple. Please. Look we are assassins having a party on the rooftops!

Again, I have no right to complain when I am speaking the truth. Forum Nazis FTW!

IBYCFOTA
06-14-2011, 12:01 PM
LOS doesn't always work flawlessly, especially against targets that are using morph. Plenty of times the game has fooled me into believing an NPC was a player by lighting up at the wrong time. When it does work, though, it's pretty satisfying, and that's how it should be.

Of course anybody who is really using LOS to their advantage makes themselves very obvious in the process. If you know somebody is doing this and is good at, at least you can prepare yourself and try to stun them.

Further, LOS is sometimes the only way to pick out your target. Most people aren't using abilities to detect targets within a crowd like Templar Vision or Firecrackers, so their only hope to revealing their target is to screen with LOS. Again, it's not always reliable and it also makes you very obvious to your target.

StuffedInABoxx
06-14-2011, 12:06 PM
I think someone needs to stop playing wanted in Florence...

papartusedmcrsk
06-14-2011, 12:11 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif

Oh, and http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

AwkwardlyBruta
06-14-2011, 12:12 PM
Right, I hate how I have blender on most of my "defense" classes, I'm such a noob because of it.

Lord_Poseidon
06-14-2011, 12:19 PM
If you're in a Wanted match with habitual roof runners, then consider it your duty to take an early lead and stay in a nice open courtyard (Venice and Mont Sant Michel), or under an awning or something or the sort (Pienza), or inside a building (Alhambra--I've had some crazy stun chains on that map just by staying inside). Doing this will more or less force the roofers to come down off their perches and play the game as you see fit. And then their pursuers will have to follow them, and so will their pursuers... If they still roof you despite all this, it means you slipped up and they took advantage of it. Which is, you know, what assassins do. It's in the job description.

If you have to take to the roofs in order to get in the lead, then do so. Refusing to use a tool at your disposal is unwise at best.

Of course, on garbage maps like Monteriggioni, there's not much you can do to stop roofers. Shoot them, or use Wall Runner and bring them down when you're close to them. And avoid the narrow alleys/obvious murder monkey zones at all costs.

Sorry to say that I have no advice for Assassinate, or really any mode other than Wanted. That's pretty much all I play.

Rakudaton
06-14-2011, 12:23 PM
Originally posted by Morvak:
As I said, the game is brokenin my opinion. Line of sight and rooftop broke this game in my opinion.

It's in no way anything at all like quake with melee. And it is <STRIKE>not</STRIKE> balanced.

You are right , <STRIKE>i bought this game but I am not allowed to complain.</STRIKE>

The game was meant to be played stealthy. Yes I know the game is Prince of Persia meets Quake and that running was designed. But the whole PREMISE is stealth and assassinate.

If I wanted to play prince of Persia multiplayer I would.

Face it. The designers <STRIKE>f****d up</STRIKE> made choices with which I, personally, do not agree. Sorry if some if you <STRIKE>fanbois</STRIKE> non-hysterical people can't see past <STRIKE>your rose colored glasses</STRIKE> reality.

The game is ridiculous now in my opinion. <STRIKE>Everyone</STRIKE> A small minority of players is on the rooftops. Don't give me only a couple. Please. Look we are assassins having a <STRIKE>party</STRIKE> very much assassin-esque kill-fest on the rooftops!

Again, I have no right to complain when I am speaking my opinion and pretending it's the truth. Forum Nazis FTW!<span class="ev_code_RED">That's only you.</span>

There, fixed that up for ya. No need to thank me.

EscoBlades
06-14-2011, 12:28 PM
Originally posted by Morvak:
As I said, the game is broken. Line of sight and rooftop broke this game.

It's quake with melee. And it is not balanced.

You are right , i bought this game but I am not allowed to complain.

The game was meant to be played stealthy. Yes I know the game is Prince of Persia meets Quake and that running was designed. But the whole PREMISE is stealth and assassinate.

If I wanted to play prince of Persia multiplayer I would.

Face it. The designers f****d up. Sorry if some if you fanbois can't see past your rose colored glasses.

The game is ridiculous now. Everyone is on the rooftops. Don't give me only a couple. Please. Look we are assassins having a party on the rooftops!

Again, I have no right to complain when I am speaking the truth. Forum Nazis FTW!

*takes deep breath*

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

Morvak
06-14-2011, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Lord_Poseidon:
If you're in a Wanted match with habitual roof runners, then consider it your duty to take an early lead and stay in a nice open courtyard (Venice and Mont Sant Michel), or under an awning or something or the sort (Pienza), or inside a building (Alhambra--I've had some crazy stun chains on that map just by staying inside). Doing this will more or less force the roofers to come down off their perches and play the game as you see fit. And then their pursuers will have to follow them, and so will their pursuers... If they still roof you despite all this, it means you slipped up and they took advantage of it. Which is, you know, what assassins do. It's in the job description.

If you have to take to the roofs in order to get in the lead, then do so. Refusing to use a tool at your disposal is unwise at best.

Of course, on garbage maps like Monteriggioni, there's not much you can do to stop roofers. Shoot them, or use Wall Runner and bring them down when you're close to them. And avoid the narrow alleys/obvious murder monkey zones at all costs.

Sorry to say that I have no advice for Assassinate, or really any mode other than Wanted. That's pretty much all I play.

Agreed.

Look, I'm know I am new here but I am just frustrated with this game.

I am a 3-4k points per game player. So I usually end up in the top 4. And have had my share of games at 1 st place with only 2 or 3 kills and I am only saying all of this because its not that I'm always finish last or whatever. And that's why I am complaining.

As much as i am addicted to the game it annoys me at the same time for its flaws.

Ok so I was too harsh in my original posts but hopefully some understand where I am coming from.

No hard feelings. But I just don't like the way the game has evolved or changed since i bought.

/nerdrage

Morvak
06-14-2011, 01:12 PM
But I will stick by my point that stealth really isn't a big part of this game.

I used to use Blender, now I don't and I still end up with the same amount of points and k/d ratio.

Blender sucks because it will give you away and it can be a crutch. And again, if there are 2 models and one is the player, LOS can break that.

Morph is really only good sometimes or situationally.

But see right there is why I say the game is broken. These are 2 abilities that should be a big part of the game but in reality they are really only good for beginners or to break locks. Or if you are in first place.

Lastly 2 more things. Why can't I defend myself against my pursuer especially when they are on the roof? Smoke, charge, none if that will work. Not even if I run away because of their attack range. Give us somekind if defense that works.

Make mute and smoke work in a bubble around you, not just on the ground.

Annnnnd I forget the other nitpick as I'm sure ya'lll are glad.

obliviondoll
06-14-2011, 01:17 PM
Originally posted by Morvak:
But see right there is why I say the game is broken. These are 2 abilities that should be a big part of the game but in reality they are really only good for beginners or to break locks. Or if you are in first place.
Explain how I can get mostly 5k - 6k games in 1st and 2nd place when I'm not getting horrific lag, while my preferred builds are Morph/Poison and Morph/Smoke, with Blender as one of my perks...

EscoBlades
06-14-2011, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Morvak:
But I will stick by my point that stealth really isn't a big part of this game.

I used to use Blender, now I don't and I still end up with the same amount of points and k/d ratio.

Blender sucks because it will give you away and it can be a crutch. And again, if there are 2 models and one is the player, LOS can break that.



You assume that those who use blender are completely unaware of their surroundings too.

I use Blender...religiously (in Wanted). Doesn't mean that because i'm stood in a group with a copy persona, i'm safe. I'm still keeping an eye and ear out for my pursuers. What Blender (usually) does is slow them down long enough for me to get a stun off and defend myself.

They can LOS all they like, if i'm aware of their presence, my fist will almost always meet their face.

Balance....that thing i talked about in my previous reply to you.

StuffedInABoxx
06-14-2011, 01:22 PM
If you use blender well, LOS will not work and/or make your pursuer extremely obvious. LOS has not broken the game for you, your inability to realize someone is coming for you broke it.

Pay attention to corners, position yourself right next to your double so LOS will not distinguish you. There is a way to counter every mechanic in this game.

Morph is pretty much a waste, unless you're obliviondoll...truth.

IMO, morph=/=stealthy. There is no better way to say HEY! I'M A PLAYER RIGHT HERE! than to walk around in a morphed group.

And as far as roof defense, there is an absolute defense against getting roofed. DON'T STAND BY ROOFS. But sure, you have to get around in wanted to find your targets. Ok, then listen to the whispers and plan your route according to the map layout. You can avoid the most vulnerable areas and keep an eye on where you know they'll come from.

Also, mute does work in a bubble. On a low roof, you can pop mute, run up and stun your pursuer. I've done it quite a few times.

Finally, stealth is still a HUGE part of the game. Runners and gunners will NOT win a match. The people who plan out their hidden incognito poisons do. Sure, you might die the most getting shot and killed in chases, but you can win a match with 4 kills if you use stealth and planning. Annoying, yes. Game breaking? No.

EscoBlades
06-14-2011, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by StuffedInABoxx:
If you use blender well, LOS will not work and/or make your pursuer extremely obvious. LOS has not broken the game for you, your inability to realize someone is coming for you broke it.

Pay attention to corners, position yourself right next to your double so LOS will not distinguish you. There is a way to counter every mechanic in this game.



Pretty much THIS! All day long.

lynx_1985
06-14-2011, 01:25 PM
Geez man take a chill pill, no one is being a fanboi....people are just giving you their opinions, in fact, alternative ways to play the game. No matter what if you want to score big in wanted you have to run, yes you get the odd idioit who is just running round getting 100 pts and roofers are annoying but they are making use of something that was put in by the designers....I use to roofs a lot to escape etc, just adapt to them if they are in your game. As long as I haven't made yourslef obvious that I am after them what I do is just wait for them in a blend group, what goes up must come down, then kill them or just dont go near roofs like stuffedinabox said!

persiateddy95
06-14-2011, 01:41 PM
position yourself right next to your double so LOS will not distinguish you.
Yes, but I can always figure out a way to counter that aswell. LOS is gold to me.

StuffedInABoxx
06-14-2011, 01:52 PM
Originally posted by persiateddy95:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">position yourself right next to your double so LOS will not distinguish you.
Yes, but I can always figure out a way to counter that aswell. LOS is gold to me. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, it isn't foolproof, but you can negate LOS on certain key corners, especially in stationary groups, and in moving groups if you think you're ok to move freely.

Like I said, there's a counter for everything, but there are ways to make LOS more challenging and more importantly, more telling

obliviondoll
06-14-2011, 02:16 PM
Also worth saying...

OP, try running. Be an idiot, get chase kills. Take a Hidden Gun, and Knives, or Firecrackers. Freak people out, put them off their game, run around like a maniac. You might enjoy it in a different way to your usual stealth play, you might find it horribly offensive and silly. But trust me when I say you'll LEARN from it.

You'll learn when it's safest to run, and when it's a bad idea. You'll learn what rooftops are the best/easiest to kill from (and thus, which rooftops to stay away from). You'll learn how runners move, and new things about the map layouts, so you can find your way around more effectively. But most importantly, you'll learn how roofers and runners move, and why. THAT becomes an important advantage. If you know where a roofer is going to be before they get there, it gives you time to prepare, and beat them to it. When you're hanging from a ledge the target is running at, well done! You just got yourself an Incognito Drop Kill (550 point minimum). If they drop to the ground instead, and approach the last little bit on foot, you're still getting Acrobatic, and maybe Focus if you're lucky.

Also, adding bonuses like Acrobatic, Focus, Discreet (not a strict "roofer" bonus, but you definitely have to run for it) brings you that many steps closer to Greater/Extreme Variety. I get GV in almost every match now. I love getting 500 point Lures... Usually thanks to Morph.

Smavey
06-14-2011, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by EscoBlades:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by StuffedInABoxx:
If you use blender well, LOS will not work and/or make your pursuer extremely obvious. LOS has not broken the game for you, your inability to realize someone is coming for you broke it.

Pay attention to corners, position yourself right next to your double so LOS will not distinguish you. There is a way to counter every mechanic in this game.



Pretty much THIS! All day long. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is what I came here to post. Just use blender well. As someone else said - adapt adapt adapt. I used to hate stunlocking, and then i realized I just kept putting myself in bad scenarios so I stopped doing that. Do the same with this - use morph well

Now the OP has 2 semi-valid points that are similar to this: There are two "glitches" essentially that DO break a lot of the stealth of the game that I tend to use every match.

1. When going towards your target in the distance, the engine generates your target player a split second before the NPCs, so you can tell who the target is (even if they're in a morphed group). I use this all the time, and it is cheap you gotta admit. that being said if you see your pursuer coming...charge or mute him!

2. In groups of people that are stationary ~50% of the time the game won't make your target do the hand animations. So ALWAYS make sure that you are doing the animations otherwise it's an easy easy easy kill for me! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Glitch" 2 is easily preventable, glitch 1 is a little tricker, the LOS lighting up is your own fault - just position yourself better.

obliviondoll
06-14-2011, 02:57 PM
Originally posted by Smavey:
1. When going towards your target in the distance, the engine generates your target player a split second before the NPCs, so you can tell who the target is (even if they're in a morphed group). I use this all the time, and it is cheap you gotta admit. that being said if you see your pursuer coming...charge or mute him!
Another point to counter this one is that you can quite often reduce the chances of your opponent actually having line of sight that early. It's the best counter other than being alert to their approach.

Crumplecorn
06-14-2011, 04:16 PM
I agree with the complaints but not with the whinyness.

It is true that at the highest levels the game involves large amounts of very overt freerunning. And LOS is, obviously, quite broken. But, you talk as if the single player hasn't had us running around on rooftops and following gamey indicators since 2007.

ABXantos
06-14-2011, 04:46 PM
Gentlemen. Behold...
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6867/trolltacular.png

cptn_k
06-14-2011, 04:59 PM
The argument that running and roofing isn't very assassin like has one flaw...

In the MP you play as a templar, not an assassin.

They could make the MP more like the SP, and give it similar mechanics and play style, (losing the compass but having eagle vision all the time for example), which might be more challenging to play?, but it would have to be balanced however they did it (still lighting up like a christmas tree while using it).

Would take the compass and LOS exploit away altogether, but introduce a fairly strong ability to have all the time.
Not sure how this could be balanced though, even with lighting up using it.

Also, I don't want to play as an assassin in the MP, killing other assassins...that's not what assassins would do, and would break the story of the SP.

StarScream391
06-14-2011, 05:25 PM
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/DivineRapier43/GIF/1560119942_l.gif
http://i867.photobucket.com/albums/ab234/DivineRapier43/GIF/tumblr_llj2zajaud1qbrdjm.gif

obliviondoll
06-14-2011, 08:26 PM
Originally posted by cptn_k:
The argument that running and roofing isn't very assassin like has <STRIKE>one</STRIKE> two flaws...

In the MP you play as a templar, not an assassin.

In SP you're forced to run and roof at times, and encouraged to do so often
Fixed that for you

Grygier
06-15-2011, 09:21 PM
If your target is in a crowd, all you have to do is get out of their sight, then wait for that crowd to pass your line of sight. As soon as the actual character model controlled by the player passes your line of sight, you know that's them because the compass will light up bright blue. Tada! Wow, such stealth!

it's pretty tough to be stealthy when a target is turtling in a crowd the entire match so tricks like that are expected... and that LOS sight is pretty tough to do at times.

i have a bigger problem with some of the other tricks you can do to get your target out of the crowd.. aka the smoke bomb trick!

Jack-Reacher
06-15-2011, 09:32 PM
The thing I like about online games is that he game always changes due to players finding counters for every strategy. Of course players were going to find a way to beat blending, if they didnt then you would be complaining about how hard is to kill blended people!

Instead of complaining about it, adapt and find a way to counter the system. Here is a tip, when they use obstacles and LOS to find you,they give themselves away.

najzere
06-16-2011, 08:30 PM
I agree with OP and wish the multiplayer were more stealthy. Unlike the OP, however, I still do enjoy playing, even with all the "crap" playstyles I see in every game.

It's a shame too, because there are tons of ways the developers could naturally influence gameplay to be stealthier, which I think is more in line with the franchise's style to date. To me, the biggest draw for AC multiplayer is its uniqueness, and every step away from stealth to action, which is extremely common in games, makes it lose that special niche. (P.S. have you guys heard what they're doing with the newest Hitman game?)

The OP should just quit playing though if he can't keep his desire for what could have been from letting him enjoy what is.

Zoidberg747
06-16-2011, 09:00 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1mvN6lU0oU

Seriously though you need to ADAPT

EDIT: Just in case you didn't get the picture:

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRqiGjsCWO2jdUjJB51QYTBKFtXfQYnZ MfPU6BEctnhAqFqjv91&t=1