PDA

View Full Version : Real Fleet Boat versus Flavored to Taste?



Da11en47
05-07-2007, 04:35 PM
I use the mod Flavored to Taste. Can anyone tell the difference between the two? Discuss.

I'm personally very happy with Flavored to Taste, I have used Real Fleet Boat back in the SH3 days.

stall84
05-07-2007, 06:10 PM
Ive used both so far... Both are good, but I couldnt deal with the painfully slow deck gun reload that Real Fleet Boat gives. It's kinda beyond any realistic stance... It takes nearly 40 seconds to reload a shell... couldnt take it.

However I do miss the many different campaign start dates that RFB gave... including the ability to Patrol from Dutch Harbor in the Aleutians..

Im using Flavored to Taste now.. and Im currently installing the newest one v1.23 Im excited about it.. Seems like toning down the effectivness of the deck gun, instead of slowing it down is the right idea... I'll let you know

Pr0metheus 1962
05-07-2007, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by stall84:
Ive used both so far... Both are good, but I couldnt deal with the painfully slow deck gun reload that Real Fleet Boat gives. It's kinda beyond any realistic stance...

Based on what info?

RFB's deck gun reload speed is based on actual in-combat reload speeds. When a deck gun was used the following procedure had to be undertaken:

The gun has to be made ready, tompion removed, locks removed; on most guns the sights are removed before diving, so they have to be replaced. Ammunition has to be removed from its protective shells and passed to the loaders. Some US submarine classes had ready use lockers in the tower superstructure and water-tight ammunition chutes, but others would have to pass the rounds by hand up the tower and down again. Then range-finding is necessary and commands have to be passed to the gun crew to adjust fire. I guarantee you that RFB's 30 seconds per round (not 40) is, if anything, very liberal. German U-boat crews had a hard time keeping a rate of fire higher than one round per minute in extended engagements.

All of the above activities are happening while the boat is pitching and rolling and while seas may be breaking across the deck. The captain isn't going to want to open the fore hatch in anything more than a dead calm. The crew (and the ammunition) may have to go up through the conning tower and down to the deck, then across to the gun.

All deck gun rate of fire stats listed in books are based on the maximum rate of fire using ready-ammo fired without aiming or range-finding from a submarine in a flat calm by an elite crew using a gun that's already been prepared and firing with the express purpose of maximizing rate of fire. Such reload speeds are nowhere near realistic and should be regarded as fantasy when making a battle simulation.

I'm setting a similar challenge before SH4 players to that which I set for SH3 players - find me evidence that a WW2 US submarine deck gun fired at least 100 rounds in under 40 minutes (the RFB rate of fire for a 5" deck gun) from the order to fire being given until the 100th round was fired and I'll change the reload times. When I made that challenge in SH3 not one person found results that contradicted my RUb rate of fire value (which was a much slower 50 seconds per round for Type VII U-boats).

The reasons RFB deck gun reloads are twice as fast as RUb reloads are as follows:

1. US sub deck guns were more efficiently positioned in relation to the ammo supply.

2. US subs had more crew devoted to serving the gun than U-boats had.

Da11en47
05-07-2007, 10:07 PM
Good point, is there any way I can't enable this without installing the mod?

lane2512
05-07-2007, 10:16 PM
The removal of the deck gun as a Dirty Harry weapon of choice, giving the aircraft the advantage, and making you work to correctly locate sonar contacts, were a very welcome addition to the game. The lower my tonnage the better each ton tastes. Dallen you can always load up FTT again. Give it a shot with RFB. I liked FTT a lot, but RFB made my sub easier to kill and harder to point, which was exactly what I was looking for. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

jdkbph
05-08-2007, 07:40 AM
These are all good arguments for why it may have taken several minutes to fire the first round after surfacing the boat. However, once the gun was set up and the ammo train in place, I would think the RoF would be somewhat higher than this.

That said, it's likely the game engine just doesn't account for these two separate sets of variables (time to 1st shot vs subsequent shots). The question then... is it more appropriate to reduce to unreasonable levels the gun's RoF overall in order to address the unrealistically fast 1st shot, or better to just live with that "limitation" in favor of a more reasonable RoF throughout the engagement?

I agree that the (non-modified) 6 second reload is overly optimistic, but I'm not sure I agree that 30+ seconds is the right answer either. The best solution maybe somewhere in between. Perhaps we might even look in a different direction entirely?

For instance, I note that when the boat surfaces, the deck crew pop to their stations almost instantaneously. Is there a way to introduce a delay of several seconds to that evolution without adversely affecting other aspects of the game? Would a combination of that, and a more moderate reduction in the (non-modified) RoF - say 15 to 20 seconds per shot - be a better solution?

And yes, I realize I can remove that tweak from the mod, or just opt out entirely. This isn't a complaint... we're just discussing. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks

JD

Pr0metheus 1962
05-08-2007, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by jdkbph:
These are all good arguments for why it may have taken several minutes to fire the first round after surfacing the boat. However, once the gun was set up and the ammo train in place, I would think the RoF would be somewhat higher than this.

Technically the gun might have taken five minutes at most to crew and set up. After that the first twenty rounds or so would have been fired at a rate of about 4 rounds per minute because they're ready-use rounds stored close to the gun. So with the set-up time (which SH4 doesn't simulate) we're talking about a rate of fire for the first 20 rounds of about 30 seconds per round (which is what RFB is set at). After that the ready use ammo is used up and the crew has to use the ammo stored below the deck. Crewmen have to get the ammo from the store which would take at least a couple of seconds - these rounds are very heavy. Then they have to pass the round up through a chute to the deck gun crew, which would take a couple of seconds, then there are two people tasked with removing the protective jackets from the rounds - this would take a few seconds. Then the round is passed to the loader which would take a few seconds as the gun is a few yards from the shell shute. The round is then loaded, aimed and after the boat has pitched and rolled to the right position (which might take a few seconds) the gun is fired. Further delays might be caused at the point of gun direction on the bridge due to problems sighting previous shell splashes. Those seconds add up to around 30 seconds, and that doesn't account for a slippery deck that would impede movement or slippery hands that would find it difficult to handle a shell that weighs somewhere around 50lbs.

I can't see how anyone could maintain a rate of fire better than about 30 seconds per round round at any point in the firing process given the above conditions. All the timed real life deck gun engagements from WW2 that I've seen online (all from U-boat and merchant deck guns) have suggested that the rate of fire should be even lower than what I've used in RFB - I've yet to see any that achieve better than one round per minute. However, I have reason to believe that US subs had an advantage due to a more efficient deck gun layout and a larger crew which would make loading and firing the gun faster than that of German U-boats, whose deck guns were basically added to U-boats as an afterthought and whose crews were severely reduced due to the necessity of diving the boat quickly in case of air attack.

As to crew popping to their stations, there is no way I know of to delay them - the crew go on board as soon as the sub reaches the level required. Even if we could delay it, that would mean we'd have to find a way to model ready-use ammo rate of fire, which cannot be done with SH4's model. We had the same problem with SH3 and the Real U-boat mod had a reload rate of between 50 seconds and 1 minute 15 seconds per round, which was based on real engagement ROF times (which are the only statistics that can really be relied upon for our needs).

Pr0metheus 1962
05-08-2007, 11:08 AM
The Germans found that deck guns were a liability in the Atlantic. They induced drag, they were slow, they invited air attack and the ships that the U-boats were tasked with destroying could usually fire back. The only reason the Pacific was different is that the Pacific was bigger so air attack was somewhat less likely and in the Pacific submarines routinely found small unguarded and unarmed surface craft for which a deck gun was ideally suited. But the deck guns were still slow.

The game's deck gun should be annoying. The problem is that many players use the game's deck gun as a primary weapon because it is so badly modelled that it's virtually an uber-weapon. Players get used to using it on big ships to save on torpedoes when in reality it was never used in that way.

Cooper_468
05-08-2007, 11:09 AM
Both FTT and RFB are very good add ons for SH4, i personaly like them both equally as much, sitting on the fence mabey, but i just cant decide between them, although FTT AI seems better to me, RFB Escorts seem a little too easy unless your caught on the surface that is, FTT has some very good options, like the ship recognition option which is both useful and realistic, hell your not on your own here you got a crew to help you, so why not. These mods keep us all going, some great options are offered in both mods, gun reload time, well realism is good and both these mods offer it whin added enjoyment, Thanks to all you modders out there, some day SH4 will be a classic, with or without UBI's help. Cheers guys.

Pr0metheus 1962
05-08-2007, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Cooper_468:
RFB Escorts seem a little too easy unless your caught on the surface that is...

The fact is, in the Pacific escorts should be easy. The US submarine force lost 52 subs out of 249 - a mortality rate of about 20% - that equates to your sub being sunk once in every 50 patrols. I doubt that anyone has had anywhere near that experience even when using RFB (which has reduced escort capabilities somewhat from the stock values). The game as it stands - even RFB - is horribly over-deadly. Escorts should be able to chase off a sub but they should rarely be able to kill it.

So far I've had two proper careers in the game, both of which ended in surrender (both times I did an emergency surface because I was headed to the bottom due to DC damage). That shouldn't be the case and I believe destroyer AI and depth charge effectiveness need further nerfs in order for the game to achieve any level of realism in this regard.

stall84
05-08-2007, 05:29 PM
Beeryus.. I love you mod.. I installed it last night... and really loved playing the new version.. But it just kills me now that the deck gun has had the ammunition neutered (for lack of a better word). I can deal with the long reloads.. because you are right IRL it would take an average of about 30 seconds to get accurate fire off.
I would love you to tell me that the gun can still sink merchants... I pumped nearly 45 rounds into an already stricken merchant last night and it had no effect...
Just tell me that it is possible, albeit very hard.. I wouldnt imagine you would completely remove any chance of sinking a ship with the gun..

Pr0metheus 1962
05-08-2007, 05:48 PM
You can sink small and medium sized merchants with the deck gun, but it will take a while. Large merchants will need at least one torpedo too, just as they would have in real life.

One example of a ship sunk by gunfire is the David H. Atw@ter (a small coastal freighter of 2438 tons - about the size of one of the game's small freighters), which required 50 rounds (out of 93 fired) to sink. I did a few tests on freighters of a similar tonnage in RFB and in stock SH4. Such a target takes about 7 rounds to sink in stock SH4, while in RFB it takes 62.

I'm happy with it needing a bit more than the historical amount because the deck guns don't pitch and roll with the boat, so aiming is a piece of cake. If we can ever get the guns to pitch and roll I may increase the shell damage.

stall84
05-08-2007, 06:17 PM
Roger that bee... I just reinstalled RFB... Because even though the deck gun is giving me ulcers... the other modifications you made are really what the game needed for realism... Case in Point: Its extremely hard to find enemy vessels now.. which is really what we needed to stop all this 100K ton mission nonsense... Before your mod.. I found myself just ignoring radio contacts.. which got kindof silly after a while..

I did notice though... Damage effects from the deck gun are gone now.. i.e. the holes from exploding shells... Is this because of the reduced damage of the shells?

Pr0metheus 1962
05-08-2007, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by stall84:
I did notice though... Damage effects from the deck gun are gone now.. i.e. the holes from exploding shells... Is this because of the reduced damage of the shells?

Probably. At some point I'll look for the data that controls this and I'll see if it's moddable. Right now I'm more interested in getting the realistic results.

Grey_Wolf2007
05-09-2007, 06:00 AM
Hi everyone..
I don't mean to intrude; I don't think I've ever posted here before, but this deck gun stuff has got me interested..so I looked around. I found this, and thought I would post it in case you all would be interested. Talks about rates of fire...
http://www.oldsubsplace.com/Submarine%20Deck%20Guns.htm

Pr0metheus 1962
05-09-2007, 06:36 AM
Originally posted by Grey_Wolf2007:
this deck gun stuff has got me interested..so I looked around. I found this, and thought I would post it in case you all would be interested. Talks about rates of fire...
http://www.oldsubsplace.com/Submarine%20Deck%20Guns.htm

Yeah, but those are rates of fire in test conditions. The only data that we can use is data from actual engagements. Rates of fire listed in books are the maximum rates of fire for the gun - i.e. the fastest the gun mechanisms can ever be fired. Such data fails to factor in real world limitations such as crewing the gun, readying it for action, getting ammunition to the gun, pitching and rolling of the sub, aiming, range-finding, etc.