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klcarroll
02-17-2007, 04:36 AM
Since many of you have expressed the intention to buy SH4 as soon as possible, I thought that a quick overview of Japanese Escorts might be in order.

In researching these guys, the first thing that becomes apparent is that these were designed to be general purpose warships; .....in some cases, it even seems as though the ASW weapons were added as an afterthought. (The Shimakaze Class, for example, with it's standard complement of only 18 depth charges!)

The second thing that catches one's attention is how fast they tend to be! The majority of the DD classes had top speeds in excess of 34 knots, and the 3000 ton SHIMAKAZE class was able to do 39+!!!!

They tended to be heavily gunned, with both the main and secondary batteries intended to be AA capable. This did not work out as well as the designers had intended due to some generic flaws in the weapons: The 5" guns found on many of the classes were good pieces of artillery, but the turrets they were mounted in tended to have much too slow a transverse speed for anti-aircraft work. This left much the AA duties to the 25mm secondary weapons. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on which side you were on) there were serious problems with those guns.

The 25mm/60 AA guns seem to be yet another example of the difficulties the Japanese had in producing serviceable automatic weapons: Based on a WWI French Hotchkiss design, it did nothing particularly well. It had slow transverse and elevation times, even in the power driven versions, and was hated by it's gunners for it's extreme vibration and excessive muzzle flash. ....And as if that wasn't enough, the ammo fed from fixed 15 round clips, which required a pause in firing to change; resulting in the gun's theoretical 260 rpm rate being cut in half!

Unfortunately for us, we are operating submarines, not aircraft, ....and the Japanese guns will work just fine for shooting up a sub on the surface.

The one really superb weapon system on the DDs is the one we will probably never have to deal with: .......Their torpedo capability.

The Japanese DDs carried the world's best torpedo: ....The famous 24 inch "Long Lance". It is this torpedo that made the Japanese destroyers such a feared adversary in surface night actions. This weapon was the result of intensive R&D before the war, during which the Japanese conducted extensive live fire tests (unlike their American counterparts), and when it went into actual combat, it was "right"!

One of the innovative things about this design was the use of pure oxygen instead of compressed air. This allowed for a fantastic boost in both range and speed, compared to other designs. On it's "Fast" setting it had a 20,000 meter range at 48 knots! On the "Slow" setting, it's range was extended to 40,000 meters, at a mere 36 knots! ........And just to make sure that the long trip was worth it, the Long Lance carried a 1080 pound explosive charge.

From the point of view of The Allies, there was nothing funny about that torpedo.

While we expect to have troubles with the DDs and DEs, the small Patrol Craft are something of an unpleasant surprise. These lightly armed 800 ton wonders promise to be "A Painful Rectal Itch" with their standard load of 120 depth charges. Mercifully, they're not terribly fast.

There are some other factors that will tend to work in our favor: First, the Japanese sonar wasn't up to Allied Standards, and they never developed a "forward firing" weapon system like Hedgehog; .....so their depth charge attacks will probably be much like the sort we have seen in the 1940 Atlantic war.

Secondly, In the initial phases of the war, radar was not common on escorts, and the Japanese were slow in correcting this.

A summary of the more common classes follows: Check it out, and start planning your evasive strategies!



AKATSUKI CLASS - DD

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q84/klcarroll/akatsuki_destroyer.jpg

Displacement 1680 Tons
Length 371 Ft.
Max Speed 38 Knots
Main Armament 5"/50 DP (x6) Max range 20,100 yards
Secondary Armament 25mm AA (x28) Max range 8,200 yards
Torpedo Tubes 9 (24")
Depth Charges (x36)



AKIZUKI CLASS - DD

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q84/klcarroll/akizuki.jpg

Displacement 2700 Tons
Length 440 Ft.
Max Speed 33 Knots
Main Armament 3.9"/65 DP (x8) Max range 21,300 yards
Secondary Armament 25mm AA (x51) Max range 8,200 yards
Torpedo Tubes 4 (24")
Depth Charges (x72) 2 Racks, 4 Launchers



ASASHIO CLASS - DD

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q84/klcarroll/asashio.jpg

Displacement 2370 Tons
Length 388 Ft.
Max Speed 35 Knots
Main Armament 5"/50 DP (x6) Max range 20,100 yards
Secondary Armament 25mm AA (x28) Max range 8,200 yards
Torpedo Tubes 8 (24")
Depth Charges (x36) 2 Racks



FUBUKI CLASS - DD

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q84/klcarroll/fubuki.jpg

Displacement 2090 Tons
Length 378 Ft.
Max Speed 38 Knots
Main Armament 5"/50 DP (x6) Max range 20,100 yards
Secondary Armament 25mm AA (x22) Max range 8,200 yards
Torpedo Tubes 9 (24")
Depth Charges (x36) 2 Launchers



HATSUHARA CLASS - DD

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q84/klcarroll/hatsuharu.jpg

Displacement 1802 Tons
Length 359 Ft.
Max Speed 36 Knots
Main Armament 5"/50 DP (x5) Max range 20,100 yards
Secondary Armament 25mm AA (x21) Max range 8,200 yards
Torpedo Tubes 9 (24")
Depth Charges (x36) 1 Rack, 2 Launchers




KAGERO CLASS - DD

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q84/klcarroll/kagero.jpg

Displacement 2490 Tons
Length 388 Ft.
Max Speed 35 Knots
Main Armament 5"/50 DP (x6) Max range 20,100 yards
Secondary Armament 25mm AA (x28) Max range 8,200 yards
Torpedo Tubes 8 (24")
Depth Charges (x36) 2 Racks, 2 Launchers



MATSU CLASS - DE

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q84/klcarroll/mutsu.jpg

Displacement 1530 Tons
Length 328 Ft.
Max Speed 28 Knots
Main Armament 5"/40 DP (x3) Max range 16,075 yards
Secondary Armament 25mm AA (x29) Max range 8,200 yards
Torpedo Tubes 4 (24")
Depth Charges (x36) 2 Racks, 2 Launchers



MUTSUKI CLASS - DD

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q84/klcarroll/mutsuki.jpg

Displacement 1772 Tons
Length 338 Ft.
Max Speed 37 Knots
Main Armament 4.7"/45 DP (x4) Max range 17,500 yards
Secondary Armament 25mm AA (x20) Max range 8,200 yards
Torpedo Tubes 6 (24")
Depth Charges (x18) 2 Racks, 2 Launchers



SHIMAKAZE CLASS - DD

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q84/klcarroll/shimak00.jpg

Displacement 3048 Tons
Length 413 Ft.
Max Speed 39 Knots
Main Armament 5"/50 DP (x6) Max range 20,100 yards
Secondary Armament 25mm AA (x28) Max range 8,200 yards
Torpedo Tubes 15 (24")
Depth Charges (x18)



SHIRATSUYU CLASS - DD

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q84/klcarroll/shiratsuyu.jpg

Displacement 1980 Tons
Length 352 Ft.
Max Speed 34 Knots
Main Armament 5"/50 DP (x5) Max range 20,100 yards
Secondary Armament 25mm AA (x21) Max range 8,200 yards
Torpedo Tubes 8 (24")
Depth Charges (x16) 1 Rack, 4 Launchers



TACHIBANA CLASS - DE

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q84/klcarroll/tachibana.jpg

Displacement 1580 Tons
Length 328 Ft.
Max Speed 28 Knots
Main Armament 5"/40 DP (x3) Max range 16,075 yards
Secondary Armament 25mm AA (x24) Max range 8,200 yards
Torpedo Tubes 4 (24")
Depth Charges (x60) 2 Racks, 4 Launchers



YUGUMO CLASS - DD

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q84/klcarroll/yugumo.jpg

Displacement 2520 Tons
Length 391 Ft.
Max Speed 35 Knots
Main Armament 5"/50 DP (x6) Max range 20,100 yards
Secondary Armament 25mm AA (x28) Max range 8,200 yards
Torpedo Tubes 8 (24")
Depth Charges (x36) 2 Racks, 2 Launchers



TYPE C PATROL CRAFT

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q84/klcarroll/typec.jpg

Displacement 810 Tons
Length 221 Ft.
Max Speed 16.5 Knots
Main Armament 4.7"/45 DP (x2) Max range 17,500 yards
Secondary Armament 25mm AA (x6) Max range 8,200 yards
Torpedo Tubes None
Depth Charges (x120) 1 Racks, 12 Launchers



TYPE D PATROL CRAFT

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q84/klcarroll/typed.jpg

Displacement 940 Tons
Length 228 Ft.
Max Speed 17.5 Knots
Main Armament 4.7"/45 DP (x2) Max range 17,500 yards
Secondary Armament 25mm AA (x6) Max range 8,200 yards
Torpedo Tubes None
Depth Charges (x120) 1 Racks, 12 Launchers



*

klcarroll
02-17-2007, 05:17 AM
Oh Well! ......It looks like Redterex and I were thinking along similar lines.

Sorry for the waste of space! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

RedTerex
02-17-2007, 05:33 AM
Not a waste of space at all klcarroll ! in fact this is another top quality post by yourself. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif excellent images and info !

You have made yet another informative thread that will help to expand peoples ideas on SH-IV and what we can expect to see.

The information about the Japanese destroyers may surprise most in that they were heavily armed, fast and well suited to the role they played.

A Japanese Destroyer coming down on players at 35+Knotts with guns and depth charges being fired like mad as the Japanese were accustomed to do, will add an extra edge to the Sim that SH II and III never quite had.

If people think that SH-IV will be a boring Sim against a weak enemy then I would ask them to re-evaluate their stance !
The IJN ( Imperial Japanese Navy ) was a real superpower and one of the largest Navies in the World at the time...manned by an intelligent and cunning crew who knew their stuff !

And in SH-IV you will all get to know some of the DD's as mentioned above...only too well !

Celeon999
02-17-2007, 07:56 AM
It will take a while to learn all those class names http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif

tambor198
02-17-2007, 04:23 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/agreepost.gif

Nice post, klcarrol. A few other things people might not know about the Imperial Japanese Navy was that they had one goal in mind when they started WW II. That goal was to defeat the US Navy in one big battle. Most of the major engagements in the Pacific between the Imperial Japanese Navy and the US Navy were built around that premise. Every Japanese warship was armed to the teeth. They were terrific night fighters, as shown by the early battles in the Solomons. It is a known fact that most Japanese destroyer captains thought it beneath their dignity to provide escort for merchantships. As RedTerex mentioned in some other posts of his, the Japanese did not think American submarines could go below 250 ft. It wasn't until mid or late 1943 that the Japanese started taking the US Submarine menace very seriously, and by then it was almost too late.



tambor198 http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

WilhelmSchulz.
02-18-2007, 10:38 AM
Id worry more about the patrol craft than the DD with there 120 Depthcharges they are more of a threat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

RedTerex
02-18-2007, 12:18 PM
Originally posted by WilhelmSchulz.:
Id worry more about the patrol craft than the DD with there 120 Depthcharges they are more of a threat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Patrol craft are deck gun fodder, a couple of good hits and they light up the sky at night ! They should be subseptible to machine gun fire too.

I am expecting that our sub's conning tower to be kitted with .50 cal machine guns as well.

WilhelmSchulz.
02-18-2007, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by RedTerex:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WilhelmSchulz.:
Id worry more about the patrol craft than the DD with there 120 Depthcharges they are more of a threat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Patrol craft are deck gun fodder, a couple of good hits and they light up the sky at night ! They should be subseptible to machine gun fire too.

I am expecting that our sub's conning tower to be kitted with .50 cal machine guns as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thats in SHIII. but what about SH4?

demigod151
02-18-2007, 04:37 PM
Wow that was a hell of an informative post klcarroll well done mate! Good reading was that.

Mittelwaechter
02-18-2007, 05:08 PM
Great post! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Did you recognize the DDs seem to have only minor differences in appearing? It's a pain in the "eye" to identify them.

klcarroll
02-24-2007, 05:30 AM
Bump! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jose.MaC
02-24-2007, 06:02 AM
Originally posted by Mittelwaechter:
Great post! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Did you recognize the DDs seem to have only minor differences in appearing? It's a pain in the "eye" to identify them.

If the differences are just minor, then get aware of the main characteristics of those clases: max speed and firepower!

WilhelmSchulz.
02-26-2007, 12:49 AM
Bump

joeap
03-04-2007, 07:42 AM
bumpity

RedTerex
03-04-2007, 07:49 AM
I will accept the bumping up of this thread as it is often a shame to see information like this getting buried.

Texan5224
03-04-2007, 08:03 AM
Originally posted by RedTerex:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by WilhelmSchulz.:
Id worry more about the patrol craft than the DD with there 120 Depthcharges they are more of a threat. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Patrol craft are deck gun fodder, a couple of good hits and they light up the sky at night ! They should be subseptible to machine gun fire too.

I am expecting that our sub's conning tower to be kitted with .50 cal machine guns as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


I highly doubt it will be as simple as this. Odds are that they'll be working in close coordination with real surface ships and aircraft that have the ability to sink the optimism that you desire to share with us.


Mr Smith

banzai_billy
03-04-2007, 07:03 PM
great post klcarroll
if you dont mind me being snobbish
im sure the rest of us would like a similar report on japanese patrol aircraft?

and as an afterthought... anyone readying up for a gunfight against though patrol boats?
bring em on! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

vodkavera
03-05-2007, 08:46 AM
Very nice post indeed!!
Tnx

/VV

Tater-SW-
03-06-2007, 04:45 PM
Of course the IJN did not escort merchant ships routinely. Indeed, hardly ever. The PCs (large subchasers) were basically brown water ships, they lacked the stability in any kind of sea to patrol in blue water.

Merchant ships encountered by the USN SS forces should be unescorted (and unconvoyed) about 99.9999% of the time. ASW just was not part of IJN doctrine (and the IJA had to have its own "navy" of merchant ships because the 2 services didn't get along).

If the IJN is shown to have a well-developed ASW doctrine in SH4, something is broken.

klcarroll
03-07-2007, 05:19 AM
The Real World combat reports from WWII U.S. submarines do not support your 99.9999% statistic.

*

RedTerex
03-07-2007, 06:19 AM
DD's will be escorting convoys and merchant shipping in SH4 as they did in real world WWII which is as many ships as they could muster to protect them.

Japan relied heavily on shipping to stay alive basically, and they protected them as much as posible.

So where 99.9999% of no DD escorts comes from in your post Tater-SW- is beyond me as the % margin is way way too big.

Maybe 55% of the time at most !

zaza-mushi
03-07-2007, 06:55 AM
I think IJN escorts service were not well known
to every one, even Japanese.

But there are so many kind of ships not only DD but also sub-chaser, mine-sweepers, patrol-ships etc,some of them are re-build from
fishing boats.

By the book written by IJN chief staff of general
escorts department,
convoy system are worked around 1943,
but around end of 1944, there are too many
merchant were sunken by US sub.
They thought made convoy were too risky,
because easy to find and hard to navigate
each other.
They have decided made them go oneself.

Tater-SW-
03-07-2007, 07:47 AM
Originally posted by RedTerex:
DD's will be escorting convoys and merchant shipping in SH4 as they did in real world WWII which is as many ships as they could muster to protect them.

Japan relied heavily on shipping to stay alive basically, and they protected them as much as posible.

So where 99.9999% of no DD escorts comes from in your post Tater-SW- is beyond me as the % margin is way way too big.

Maybe 55% of the time at most !

The IJN did NOT convoy ships routinely before 1943 at all. On top of that, they never really protected them "as much as possible" because it was not part of IJN doctrine to do so.

Starting in '43, they sailed merchant ships in groups, even unescorted. This was partially to pick up survivors, but the IJN would put their officers aboard sometimes to get timid merchant captains out of port ("smart" might be a better word than "timid"). I consider an unescorted "convoy" to not be a real convoy since grouping does nothing at all for mutual protection.

So the IJN did NOT normally escort merchant ships before 1943, because there were no convoys to escort, and the fleet did not "waste" (as they saw it) offensive platforms (DD) on "defensive" (again, in their eyes) duty, ASW. The only exception was military transport in merchant ships (troop ships) since that was the only time they really bunched up merchant ships in a way that even allowed "escort."

In late 1943, the Japanese created the Grand Escrt HQ. They apparently passed convoys off between regional command (possibly because of the poor capability of escort types). Ships would often arrive by surprise with no escorts available for the next leg. It was very haphazard.

Still, many ships sailed until 1944 in "convoys" of a handful of ships but totally unescorted. (meaning in allied terms they were not really convoys, since that implies an escorted group).

According to Oi, they considered convoys of 10-15 ships unmanageably large. As a result, the normal convoy size in 1943 was 5 ships. Regardless, only "important" convoys were escorted at all in 1943. On top of that it was extremely rare for any such convoy to get more than one escort, which was almost certainly NOT a modern fleet DD.

In April, 1944, they created the Escort-of-Convoy HQ with appointed naval officers. Didn't help. They rotated officers through so there was no accumulation of experience. Officers found out about their escort duty about a week before leaving. If they survived, they'd be gone for the next convoy. A black hole for experience.

In early '44 they first decided to group tankers into convoys with a decent escort. It was 2 tankers.

Later in '44 (spring) they got desperate and adopted "large" convoys of 10-20 vessels (tiny by allied standards). They found losses were constant for a trip regardless of convoy size, so bigger meant fewer losses. Yipee! 27 months into the war they figured it out, and now, with these "large" convoys, they could give every convoy at least a SINGLE escort (which up to that point in '44 didn't happen, most small groups were still unescorted). They thought that the reduction in losses was the "new" convoy technique. Actually the USN had tasked more subs to fleet duty (saving pilots, etc), in April it went back to normal, and the losses mounted. Ooops.

Other than rare, important convoys (large troop movements, basically), they were stuck with ships like minelayers for escorts. Old, sometimes coal burning ships.

I suggest you read the definitive book on the subject, Mark Parillo's The Japanese Merchant Marine in World War II, Naval Institute Press (out of print, sadly, it's an excellent book).

klcarroll
03-07-2007, 08:17 AM
@Tater-SW

Well, .....First of all, let me complement you on a scholarly reply. (...And yes, I have read Parillo's book.)

While your statistics are probably accurate regarding Early War merchants carrying basic commodities like rice, you are overlooking the point that in 1942 there were many heavily escorted "priority" convoys that were involved in the invasion of the Philippines.

These critical military convoys with their Troop Transports and Supply Ships would certainly have taken ASW priority over "civilian" merchant vessels; ....and this weighting of priorities probably explains the unprotected status of simple merchant traffic in the first year of the war:

Remember, ...In peacetime, Japan was dependent on it's imports for survival: ...In wartime the Japanese demand for imported raw materials and oil doubled! They would never have ignored the safety of that shipping out of simple militaristic arrogance! It wasn't that these ships weren't important; ...the problem was that there weren't enough escorts to go around!

All things considered, I still feel that Redterex's 55% is a far more reasonable number than "99.9999%".

*

RedTerex
03-07-2007, 08:38 AM
First, thank you Zaza-Mushi, I hope your project is going well...a Japanese Sub for SH4 would also be good. Your signature is quite enchanting too, with all the Japanese characters brings this post alive some. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

A good reply from you Tater-SW. You certainly shed a little more light onto the subject of IJN usage of escorts in WWII.

However as Zaza-Mushi says many Naval vessels were used as priority to escorting. If you remember in SH1 we often saw patrol craft on escort duty.

It is not convoys that I am focusing on, it was the 3, 4, 5 and 6 ships groups that were more abundant that had escorts of any class of ship with them and will probably be seen in SH4 more than the large convoy of the atlantic type.

I will however grant you 100% correct on extremely limited escorts in the fisrt months on the war from say Dec 1941 upto mid 1942 but from there after I'm happy with my original figure of 55% escorts and will be happy to see that % in game, although I think it will be slightly higher as the war progresses.

Tater-SW-
03-07-2007, 08:41 AM
Actually, they did ignore it. That was a major point of Parillo's book in fact. It was baffling that they would so totally ignore ASW in their naval doctrine given their analog to the UK as a island nation dependant upon keeping the sea lanes open to survive.

IJN doctrine was a warped Mahanian concept of "decisive battle" as the key to maintaining the sea lanes instead of actually keeping the sea lanes clear. Everything in the IJN was bent to this offensive role, and ASW was considered "defensive." This is why they also didn't utilize their excellent subs as commerce raiders---they were expected to attack military targets to whittle down the enemy in preparation for "decisive battle."

ASW was a backwater duty given largely to inferior officers (practically as punishment) or to wounded officers no longer deemed fit for fleet commands. They got converted ships, old WW1 era DDs (that'd be a really good escort for the IJN), etc. Most of the subchasers they built were coastal ships, which is why they adopted a "zone" defense passing convoys off as they moved from brown water to brown water.

As for the %, 99% is overstated, but during 1942 pretty accurate for non-military convoys. Meanign that direct troop deployments would be escorted, and supplies, etc were not AT ALL. By 1944 convoys were becoming the norm---in name only. I consider any unescorted "convoy" not to be a convoy at all, it's just a bunch of ships that happen to be going the same direction, they are still fish in a barrel without escort. Until they went to 10-20 ship convoys in Spring of '44 (with only a single escort the large majority of the time), most were not escorted at all.

It's important to realize that this "non-military" shipping was virtually everything going TO JAPAN. Ships heading out to the front were far more likely to be "military transport," but to the IJN that meant NAVY supplies (storeships, bunker oil, etc), not ARMY supplies, which were generalyl just SOL. Also, in 1942, there was little to ship home. Starting in '43, there was far more (notably oil from the NEI) to send home.

As an aside, an interesting converted subchaser toye is the "whale killer" boat. They were excellent ships designed to kill and tow back whales from arctic seas. Powerful, excellent, seaworthy ships. Here's a pic:

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/whale_killers.jpg

And a typical purpose built "subchaser" of the larger tpye (~300 tons)
http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/PC4_13.jpg

ijozic2
03-07-2007, 08:57 AM
Nice overview. I wish the Recognition Manual in the Collector's Edition used the same perspective.

Tater-SW-
03-07-2007, 09:17 AM
The IJN did not have escorted convoys much at all until 1944.

ASW duty was (again) a "zone" system where port commanders tasked limited ASW forces to cover certain areas that merchant shipping passed through. That was their doctrine, that is what they did. They didn't sail with the merchants, they were tasked with sweeping a region where merchants happened to be. This was accomplished without combined fleet assets (all the good DDs, in other words).

The Combined Fleet DID have respnsibility for ASW (as part of the "zone" doctrine) for front line areas. This was a pretty limited set of locations, basically areas in which the fleet was actively operating. So you'd see a DD tasked to cover a sea lane from Truk to Rabaul, perhaps. Possibly even sailing with a small group of ships. Outside such front line areas, it was port by port. Merchant shipping hugged coastal areas where possible to take advantage of such brown-water subchasers as were available.

Typical for 1943:

Mid '43, the Second base Force based at Balikpapan (oil port, critically important to the japanese war effort, indeed a primary reason for the war in the first place--NOT some unimportant place) had THREE subchasers.

Escort forces in the seas off north China at the same period? A few auxilary patrol vessels, 2 converted merchant ships of over 2000 tons, and a modified chinese customs cruiser. The China Area Fleet could add in 3 old DDs (ww1) and 8 PT boats.

The home waters were worse that even that through 1943.

Parillo's book is filled with quotes from japanese officers saying that their ships were virtually unescorted all the time.

tater

klcarroll
03-16-2007, 05:18 AM
BUMP!!!!

Tater-SW-
03-16-2007, 09:54 PM
Outside of front line areas (as I talked about earlier), or strictly military convoys (invasion fleets, storeships for fleet resupply, etc), fleet DDs were not used as ASW platforms on anything like a regular basis, they were far too valuable.

Here's a brown water escort of the type subs would typically see near merchant shipping. Not a 2-3000 ton DD, but a 300 ton subchaser, not even always equipped with depth charges, and if equipped with SONAR at all probably not all that well trained in using it (I've read reports saying they typically drove too fast to actually listen more often than not).

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/PC1.jpg

Another tiny surface combatant that might possibly engage a submarine on the surface (they had no depth charges) would be one of these:

http://members.spinn.net/~merrick/Stuff/MLC_C.jpg


BTW, the post above where I show the PC13 class subchaser, look at the estimates on hull numbers. That is by far the most common such craft. If they were to model a single ASW craft alone, that would make more sense than a few of the DD types with very few hulls built.

tater

RedTerex
03-16-2007, 11:07 PM
Great info Tater.....keep it coming http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

klcarroll
04-02-2007, 01:58 PM
Bumpity!

klcarroll
04-02-2007, 02:17 PM
Oh, BTW: If you want a laugh, ...do what I inadvertently did when researching the original article: .......Do a "Google" search on the keywords "Japanese Escorts", and see what you get! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif

*

lane2512
04-02-2007, 02:25 PM
Reference the posts about 'deck gun fodder' and fighting your boat as a AAcruiser......

no thanks....might be fun but hardly plays to the realism factor. One good three inch hit and the USS ClintEastwood would be on eternal patrol.