Breda and flak 88/90 problems.

[AverageSoldier]

These are very fragile units in the game, I really enjoy the Breda. The Flak 90 also brings me joy when it isn't hammered by Artillary.

However I have come with problems with the unit AI where it will do some really stupid things which last game, cost me the entire game.

This problem to me.
These slow shooting, slow moving, fragile units attacking Supply Trucks in battle. Last game I was killing my friends tigers in a very nice 3v3, it was all going well, killing these units, untill the tigers were retreating. My 6 breda guarded by a line of my tanks than started to shoot the enemy supply trucks, letting the tigers live! With this my Germany enemy, got artillary and killed all my breda (Which would be fine) besides the fact that those tigers that my breda let live for to attack supply trucks stomped on my tanks!

These units need a feature to attack something that isn't a supply truck! the fact that my Breda find the tigers to not be a threat when they are retreating and use their slow firing rate on supply trucks makes me so ****ed off that it actually cost me the game. (If they killed the tigers the artillary would have been killed by the tanks I had)

I'm unsure people are having this problem, but this really needs to be fixed as it almost always costs me my fragile units and has just gone to far to have lost me the game.

[Tyefen]

Not to be condescending but are you positive the Tigers had not crossed the range marker? They will certainly shoot at supply trucks all day if that happened.

I haven't seen this, but if something can survive a shot it will probably back out of range before reload.

[AverageSoldier]

I moved the breda right at the forest so they were in the LOS (It worked they were in the LOS) However they continued to shoot the supply trucks anyway, because the vehicles seem to leave alone the retreating vehicles and shoot the ones that are not retreating.

[DT_CoNfuSioN]

the auto-targeting will ignore retreating targets and target things that aren't retreating, like supply trucks. It is a pain and has happened to me too.

[Velico12]

Sounds mostly like a micro issue. There's a few things you can do to avoid the range issue. I play Germany a lot and make ample use of just one Flak 18 and generally I'll always keep the 88 on radio silence. I use it mostly for popping recon units and ambushing tanks. Pop the recon, move your Flak gun, wait for a tank to get in range for two shots (regardless if it's fleeing) and open fire on it. If they're without recon and still moving in tanks while you have radio silence on it's game over for those tanks.

If they have several heavy tanks I generally get one or two more Flak guns and position them differently so that the enemy doesn't know they're there until it's too late. Good luck, it just takes a little micro to have the Flak guns excel.

[Alcarin21]

Originally posted by Velico12:
Sounds mostly like a micro issue. There's a few things you can do to avoid the range issue. I play Germany a lot and make ample use of just one Flak 18 and generally I'll always keep the 88 on radio silence. I use it mostly for popping recon units and ambushing tanks. Pop the recon, move your Flak gun, wait for a tank to get in range for two shots (regardless if it's fleeing) and open fire on it. If they're without recon and still moving in tanks while you have radio silence on it's game over for those tanks.

If they have several heavy tanks I generally get one or two more Flak guns and position them differently so that the enemy doesn't know they're there until it's too late. Good luck, it just takes a little micro to have the Flak guns excel.

Its funny though, i wonder which idiot behind flak 88 or breda would order to attack a truck full of oil when they see shermans rolling around the battlefield

It is micro, but its wrong microing...

tanks>supply depots

[Velico12]

I'm not on board with making this game fully macro so I'd rather have some small micro such as this. If you're not paying attention to your own front then you deserve to lose the battle, that's my take on it.

Same goes for recon auto-backing away. With the speed they have it's absolutely annoying when you know the person doesn't pay attention yet their vital recon stays alive.

People should pay for their mistakes, the macro (do everything for me) kills a lot of the skill level. I wish it were a good mix of macro and micro.

[Alcarin21]

Originally posted by Velico12:
I'm not on board with making this game fully macro so I'd rather have some small micro such as this. If you're not paying attention to your own front then you deserve to lose the battle, that's my take on it.

Same goes for recon auto-backing away. With the speed they have it's absolutely annoying when you know the person doesn't pay attention yet their vital recon stays alive.

People should pay for their mistakes, the macro (do everything for me) kills a lot of the skill level. I wish it were a good mix of macro and micro.

I fully agree with recon... but not with flaks/bredas

We already have microing like taking out recons in air and on ground also we have micro moving tanks back when they have longer range

[kastetml]

I do not agree that this game requires more micro due to several reasons:

1) This is a GLOBAL strategy game -> you have to keep an eye on the WHOLE map as combat develops. You're roleplaying a general, and, AFAIK, generals don't personally command their troops (micro) IRL, they just give orders - take that forest\hold the town, etc - they develop STRATEGY, while squad\company commanders develop TACTICS.
If you add more micromanagement elements, it will be easier to do backdoor attacks even without using ruses since microing usually requires a zoom-in.
2) This game is like pimped chess to me - do you have to micro your figures in chess match? No, you just move them to the tile you want to keep. That's how things should, IMO, work in this game. After all, there's so much simplified for the sake of GLOBAL gameplay things in this game (like capturing towns - all you have to do is to take their squares (chess tiles in my metaphor)), that these weird AI actions, which require micromanagement, just don't feel appropriate. Actually, they (AI flaws) are considered as bugs by the fairy big part of the community, and I agree with them.
3) This game isn't newb-friendly as it is now - it takes weeks for a completely new player (no beta exp) to find out those rock-paper-scissors relations between unit types, learn RUSEs, discover faction differences. Adding\keeping current micromanagement elements won't make things easier for them.

All in all, necessity to micro my units kills GLOBAL strategic feeling to me. This horrible experience, when the battle is lost only coz stupid infantry\AA\AT units sticked to the road in combat zone when there is a forest 5 meters away from it, or other AI flaws makes me ****ed when I both loose (understandable) and win (it wasn't me winning that - it's dumb AI who ruined another players strategy)

IMO, in this game victory should go to the better strategic mind, not to better pixel-hunter.

[Tyefen]

They can only do that to a degree. Better micro will always give an edge if it is even a small percent of the game.

Anyone who has excellent micro is not going to be bad with macro - it's easy in this game compared to others as is.

Learning maps is another one - some people know the really annoying spots to place a certain unit to slow you down. That's overall strategy and micro, putting it to slow and reinforcing or removing to avoid the loss.

[TGApples]

The auto-targeting really doesn't like shooting retreating units. There's plenty enough micro that you can be doing in this game to spend all your time microing fire targets.

[Alcarin21]

Originally posted by kastetml:
I do not agree that this game requires more micro due to several reasons:

1) This is a GLOBAL strategy game -> you have to keep an eye on the WHOLE map as combat develops. You're roleplaying a general, and, AFAIK, generals don't personally command their troops (micro) IRL, they just give orders - take that forest\hold the town, etc - they develop STRATEGY, while squad\company commanders develop TACTICS.
If you add more micromanagement elements, it will be easier to do backdoor attacks even without using ruses since microing usually requires a zoom-in.
2) This game is like pimped chess to me - do you have to micro your figures in chess match? No, you just move them to the tile you want to keep. That's how things should, IMO, work in this game. After all, there's so much simplified for the sake of GLOBAL gameplay things in this game (like capturing towns - all you have to do is to take their squares (chess tiles in my metaphor)), that these weird AI actions, which require micromanagement, just don't feel appropriate. Actually, they (AI flaws) are considered as bugs by the fairy big part of the community, and I agree with them.
3) This game isn't newb-friendly as it is now - it takes weeks for a completely new player (no beta exp) to find out those rock-paper-scissors relations between unit types, learn RUSEs, discover faction differences. Adding\keeping current micromanagement elements won't make things easier for them.

All in all, necessity to micro my units kills GLOBAL strategic feeling to me. This horrible experience, when the battle is lost only coz stupid infantry\AA\AT units sticked to the road in combat zone when there is a forest 5 meters away from it, or other AI flaws makes me ****ed when I both loose (understandable) and win (it wasn't me winning that - it's dumb AI who ruined another players strategy)

IMO, in this game victory should go to the better strategic mind, not to better pixel-hunter.

Your theory you being a general and should not micro that much is understandable and logical allthough that would be a bit too much making it ''that simple''

I like some micro in the game...

And about noob friendly... i like it being NOT noob friendly... its not fun if every idiot can play the game good like its happening now with World of Warcraft if we go into example

I prefer some line between a new player a decent player after 50 hours+ of RUSE and a pro in ELITE league.

its only my opinion though

[Xichtschuss]

This problem does not only apply to Breda and squishy flak but to any unit behavior that isn't micromanaged. The A.I. that is supposed to do the micromanaging for the player is in fact quite inefficient and stupid so in the long run one is forced to employ micromanagement.

Yesterday I tested how 10 Jackson TD would fare against 5 King Tigers. Without micromanagement 2 Jacksons survived. With micromanagement 6 did. Is this how the game was intended? Another Starcraft 300 actions per minute incarnation?

The problems concerning micromanagement have been adressed during the beta tests already. Unfortunately it seems that the critique wasn't heard.

[Alcarin21]

Originally posted by Xichtschuss:
This problem does not only apply to Breda and squishy flak but to any unit behavior that isn't micromanaged. The A.I. that is supposed to do the micromanaging for the player is in fact quite inefficient and stupid so in the long run one is forced to employ micromanagement.

Yesterday I tested how 10 Jackson TD would fare against 5 King Tigers. Without micromanagement 2 Jacksons survived. With micromanagement 6 did. Is this how the game was intended? Another Starcraft 300 actions per minute incarnation?

The problems concerning micromanagement have been adressed during the beta tests already. Unfortunately it seems that the critique wasn't heard.

Well i dont know about you but i find soldiers in towns surprise attacking tanks pretty anti micro req and many other stuff

But i understand you gotta micro units on plains... its way more fun in my opinion than just sending all your troops there and fighting alone.

To me this comparrison goes like in Total War series... do you auto resolve battle = only macro or do you fight on map to loose less = micro

for RTS both is needed the question is to what degree

[kastetml]

@Alcarin21
After reading your post an thinking about it I have to agree that microing can be taken as a part of RUSE gameplay. BUT not as it is implemented now (I mean this ridiculous babysitting when you manually point your troops their next target).

Dunno if I go offtopic now (actually, I posted pretty much the same in suggestions thread), but let me make it clear how microing should be implemented in RUSE in my opinion.

1 simple word - firing modes. They could be binded to F1-F12 keys (AFAIK those aren't currently used).
F1- Attack ground
F2- Attack air
(both F1 and F2 commands are for units with both AA\AT attacks ONLY (88\90 mm)
In this case if you see that combined attack is coming (both air and ground), you can manage your guns adaptive to enemy army composition proportions (more AA targeted guns if opponents has more air and vice versa)

F3- Fire at will (pretty much we have now - unit fires at anything it can reach)
F4- Attack threat (unit attacks closest damage dealing enemy units\buildings, ignoring neutral trucks\buildings.)

Maybe more modes in order to solve ignoring retreating enemy problem.

Overall, after another thinking on microing, I suppose it can add even a new dimension to the gameplay, if done properly (I don't insist on my idea's rightness, just want to point out how ridiculous current unit babysitting is compared to another possible options)

[Xichtschuss]

I agree, there is some unit behavior that works fine. By no means most of it though. Have you ever lost an air unit because it decided it was a good idea to turn right into anti-air fire after dropping its load? Have you ever lost a decisive ground battle because your tanks decided to swivel their turrets toward a target out of reach instead of finishing off their routed opponents?

In my opinion there is already plenty going on in RUSE - especially on large maps - that requires my attention. "Just sending all your troops there to fight alone" isn't at all how I would like to play the game. But as I said before I also don't have to mother my units all the time, making sure they don't do anything utterly stupid.

[Tyefen]

Originally posted by Xichtschuss:
I agree, there is some unit behavior that works fine. By no means most of it though. Have you ever lost an air unit because it decided it was a good idea to turn right into anti-air fire after dropping its load? Have you ever lost a decisive ground battle because your tanks decided to swivel their turrets toward a target out of reach instead of finishing off their routed opponents?

In my opinion there is already plenty going on in RUSE - especially on large maps - that requires my attention. "Just sending all your troops there to fight alone" isn't at all how I would like to play the game. But as I said before I also don't have to mother my units all the time, making sure they don't do anything utterly stupid.

While most of the tidbits are most likely programming limitations, i.e. firing at the things that can still kill you as opposed to what is potentially harmless - also the targeting is probably nearest unit of whatever class as opposed to ******** that guy, now that one, now that one!

A fun way to look at it is a plane has no idea where things are unless told. On the ground someone will fire at what is in front of it.

The commander has the intel, he makes the call. He is slack on it, or ignores a section, he suffers losses.

[warshark4355]

Originally posted by kastetml:
@Alcarin21
After reading your post an thinking about it I have to agree that microing can be taken as a part of RUSE gameplay. BUT not as it is implemented now (I mean this ridiculous babysitting when you manually point your troops their next target).

Dunno if I go offtopic now (actually, I posted pretty much the same in suggestions thread), but let me make it clear how microing should be implemented in RUSE in my opinion.

1 simple word - firing modes. They could be binded to F1-F12 keys (AFAIK those aren't currently used).
F1- Attack ground
F2- Attack air
(both F1 and F2 commands are for units with both AA\AT attacks ONLY (88\90 mm)
In this case if you see that combined attack is coming (both air and ground), you can manage your guns adaptive to enemy army composition proportions (more AA targeted guns if opponents has more air and vice versa)

F3- Fire at will (pretty much we have now - unit fires at anything it can reach)
F4- Attack threat (unit attacks closest damage dealing enemy units\buildings, ignoring neutral trucks\buildings.)

Maybe more modes in order to solve ignoring retreating enemy problem.

Overall, after another thinking on microing, I suppose it can add even a new dimension to the gameplay, if done properly (I don't insist on my idea's rightness, just want to point out how ridiculous current unit babysitting is compared to another possible options)

oops I hit alt f4!!!!

[Xichtschuss]

When the Ruse multiplayer demo came out the problem was already quite evident. Back in the day I made a suggestion how to improve it but a bit of programming would have been necessary.

My suggestion was a "priority system" in which one could (pre-)set behavior priorities for each type of unit. I cba going into detail but the suggestion wasn't even noted. Therefore I reckon it's quite pointless trying to make any suggestions now that the game has come out. They won't bother anyway.

[Wolf2449]

Ye if both tiger and supply trucks were in range then they should have auto-attacked the tigers, they should have made it a priority

Something general about breda trucks is that you need to micro them a lot in order to make them effective against enemy armor since some heavy tanks can easily just blitz 100 yards and start one shotting your bredas. Grouping bredas in order to destroy a specific tank immediately without overkills or random fire is the best way

[Kickass.Hoppa]

if you know the number of breda's needed to kill a certain unit, then select that amount and give them a number. just let them shoot at 1 tank evrytime together and move on to the next. Dont let them stand still without commanding them, you wont win it from incoming heavy's that way if they all shoot another tank.