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raaaid
01-29-2008, 09:34 AM
i suspect telepathy works the same way than precognition

you dont read the mind of the person but you know through precognition its gonna be thought

so if we ever are gonna be telepathic we should be foreteller as well

BSS_Goat
01-29-2008, 09:47 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Copperhead311th
01-29-2008, 09:50 AM
Having this type of connection with someone is wierd, but not impossble. I can say that becuase i share a connection like that with 1 other person. It's odd knowing what someone elses emotions are, and what thier thinking and doing even though they live 3 1/2 hours away.
We have had entire conversations across crowded bars and neither have said a word to the other person. It's all eye contact. Body language.
She can tell when i'm near her. I can be on my way down for a visit and she can literly tell me how far i am from her. and we cannot lie to the each other. I know what she's going to do or say before she does. we know each other better than we know ourselvs. It very odd & unnerving.....but in a good way. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

raaaid
01-29-2008, 09:53 AM
i mean imagine we had the power of precognition the wed know what a persons gonna think and then that person sould have the precognition of what were gonna think back

myself sometimes i think the same word i hear in advance sometime 15 times a day

ill put you an example of telepathy

my mother was telling me how to do a maths exercise and she said this is good for me if alzeimer, i thought: yes play with fire then she said aloud yes play with fire

isnt it odd?

R_Target
01-29-2008, 09:53 AM
"If"?

x6BL_Brando
01-29-2008, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by R_Target:
"If"?

I knew you were going to say that....

MEGILE
01-29-2008, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by R_Target:
"If"?

I knew you were going to say that....

Daiichidoku
01-29-2008, 10:08 AM
depends;

what is the speed of thought?

DrHerb
01-29-2008, 10:13 AM
Originally posted by Daiichidoku:
depends;

what is the speed of thought?

the amount of time it takes an electrical signal to fire off in the brain?? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

SeaFireLIV
01-29-2008, 10:27 AM
"if telepathy exist could it be trully precognition travelling thought fasterthanlight"


Telepathy, precognition, faster than light...

Each one is a subject in itself. You don`t mind making things complicated, do you?

Pirschjaeger
01-29-2008, 10:41 AM
Raaaid, thought travels at around 360 mph (358 IIRC). I'm not joking. This is the speed of the signals between neurons in the synapse.

So, thought cannot travel at the speed of light, or even close.

Fritz

Breeze147
01-29-2008, 11:01 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
i suspect telepathy works the same way than precognition

you dont read the mind of the person but you know through precognition its gonna be thought

so if we ever are gonna be telepathic we should be foreteller as well

Hello, Twins34!!

MEGILE
01-29-2008, 11:05 AM
This man knows about telepathy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxqRN5vjDHQ

Capt.LoneRanger
01-29-2008, 11:13 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Raaaid, thought travels at around 360 mph (358 IIRC).

IAS or TAS?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Pirschjaeger
01-29-2008, 11:44 AM
Want track? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BTW, Raaaid, mind reading has been shown to be a sort of hoax. Even though the Russians invested a lot of time and money into telepathy, they accomplished little more than propaganda material.

You can say that there are people who read minds. In fact, we all do, but not telepathically. It's done through observation.

Almost every thought has a physical manifestation. For example, a fake smile is easy to detect by looking at the outer corners of the eyes. We are incapable of voluntarily flexing those muscles the way they are flexed when we have a real smile. Also, a real smile fades in and out. A fake smile is there and gone quickly. There are other ways to pick up on the authenticity of a smile, including pupil dilation and muscle tension of the rest of the body.

That's just the very basics. If you are sensitive enough, you can read people much deeper. This is how fortune tellers do it. In fact, reading people is part of FBI and CIA training.

We can all do this to varying degrees. Most of us don't realize that "hunch" about someone is actually a message that came from your subconscious.

To me, it's a little bit of a hobby. I enjoy controlling people when they ask if body language can really be read. In a short time, just with a few carefully chosen words, I can guide them into feeling they are very vulnerable, then bring them back to feeling secure. It's actually a lot of fun and a great topic for English corners.

In school I used to tell girls all about their past, in great detail. The trick is to make them tell you without their realizing it. Then you just mix common sense with probability.

Not only do you get their number, they introduce you to all their friends. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

Cajun76
01-29-2008, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by raaaid:
i suspect telepathy works the same way than precognition

you dont read the mind of the person but you know through precognition its gonna be thought

so if we ever are gonna be telepathic we should be foreteller as well

Thought is definitely slower than light, I thought you were going to post this 2 WEEKS AGO!

MEGILE
01-29-2008, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Also, a real smile fades in and out. A fake smile is there and gone quickly.

Fritz

Interesting point. I'm always conscious of this when spotting a faker, or on the odd occasion I fake myself http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

mortoma
01-29-2008, 11:56 AM
Mods please!!!

Pirschjaeger
01-29-2008, 12:01 PM
Megile,

just for fun, the next time you are sitting and talking with a buddy, note he/she will unknowingly mimic your moves.

For example, cross your legs. Put your chin in your hand. Position your body slightly left or right. If the person is really comfortable with you, they will follow without realizing it.

If you go on a first date, mimic her moves and you'll find she loosens up quickly. But don't be more "open" then her, you might make her feel insecure.

It all fun.

Fritz

Fritz

VMF-214_HaVoK
01-29-2008, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Raaaid, thought travels at around 360 mph (358 IIRC). I'm not joking. This is the speed of the signals between neurons in the synapse.

So, thought cannot travel at the speed of light, or even close.

Fritz

I believe pain travels to the brain around 250mph. You blew this one Raaido! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

DuxCorvan
01-29-2008, 12:24 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
If you go on a first date, mimic her moves and you'll find she loosens up quickly.

I went on a first date, I did mimic her moves, and some guy called Hector gave me his number. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Pirschjaeger
01-29-2008, 12:28 PM
ok, go on. What happened next? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

MEGILE
01-29-2008, 12:47 PM
I shall amuse myself with some manipulation tommorow http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

DuxCorvan
01-29-2008, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by Megile:
I shall amuse myself with some manipulation tommorow http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Manipulating yourself is not what this thread is about, perv... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


ok, go on. What happened next?

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Pirschjaeger
01-29-2008, 01:23 PM
Raaaid,

as far as I know, the most famous telepath is Uri Geller. I just found this 4 part video on YouTube for you.

Part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBEbfiaZTfc)

Part 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jp6Q-3VxNzM)

Part 3 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jF05m_wrgi4)

Part 4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMcg_6lj0SI)

Something else I should point out is that Geller and I used the same lines.

"I'm not sure it will work."

"I'm nervous, it might not work."

"I'm not sure you are focusing your thoughts enough."

Why we say these is very simple. People want to believe in "magic". They want it to be true. Why? Why do people want gods? It's got a lot to do with getting high naturally; dopamine.

Anyway, when you use these questions, people sort of help you more. They offer more tangible clues although they don't now it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Raaaid, there are too many more serious questions to be answered. Back to physics please. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fritz

gdfo
01-29-2008, 03:01 PM
Raaaid.

I have had several experiences with telephones, in which I think about a person and then go to call them on the phone, and as I pick up the phone to dial (or punch buttons) I hear the person I was thinking about already on the line.

It turned out that I picked up the phone before it could ring.

Do you think that the odds are against this happening or that there might be a 'psychic' bond between some people?

Or is it possible that the odds are in favor of this happening if you phone that particular person on a regular basis and the timing was just right.

Pirschjaeger
01-29-2008, 04:18 PM
I've had the same thing happen. One night when playing yatze with my gf of that time, I said "watch, six 6s". I was right and I had no doubt that it would be six 6s.

Of course we laughed and she said "That was lucky."

I said "Really?, why don't you answer the phone?". She stopped laughing and looked at me confused then suddenly the phone rang. Of course, she was a bit spooked.

What you described, picking up the phone before it rings, with the intention of calling that person, actually happens a lot. It's happened to me a few times.

I have no idea as to why. It's an event that is extremely spontaneous. But it's interesting. I've always believed that each individual is a part of a collective that we call nature, aka life. That could explain this sort of communication.

Fritz

VW-IceFire
01-29-2008, 04:27 PM
I've done the phone thing too...picked it up and the person was already there on the other end having just finished dialing. We were a bit spooked at the time...I guess its probability but its freaky. The stranger stuff is like the time my brother and I came down to the TV and decided on watching the very same episode of a TV program on DVD. From all of the seasons to choose from...we picked one episode. Simultaneously. I figure that either given the same kinds of stimulus we arrived at the same thought at the same time or something else is going on inside our brains thats less understood.

Either way...people often have thoughts and intuition they ought not to have. How this works is anyones guess but it doesn't seem to be something thats under control.

Zeus-cat
01-29-2008, 06:23 PM
Uri Geller has been shown to be a fake. and a rather bad fake at that. I can't believe people still believe he and his silliness are real.

SeaFireLIV
01-29-2008, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by Zeus-cat:
Uri Geller has been shown to be a fake. and a rather bad fake at that. I can't believe people still believe he and his silliness are real.

yea, I used to watch him in the `70s and think - wow!

I watched some old stuff of his a while back and it`s obviously a shoddy fake. I can`t believe so many people fell for it back then. I bet he couldn`t believe it too. Even now, whenever someone visits him he tries to put on that `I`m a mysterious telepath` fake routine. I guess it`s all he has left. sad.

fabianfred
01-29-2008, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Raaaid, thought travels at around 360 mph (358 IIRC). I'm not joking. This is the speed of the signals between neurons in the synapse.

So, thought cannot travel at the speed of light, or even close.

Fritz

you are making the same mistake that all western science has.... to associate the mind with the brain....actually the mind is to do with the spirit....and continues existence after the brain has died..

6th sense or supernatural abilities are to do with the mind...not the brain

xTHRUDx
01-29-2008, 10:57 PM
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/funny-pictures-bored-cat.jpg

Pirschjaeger
01-30-2008, 12:29 AM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Raaaid, thought travels at around 360 mph (358 IIRC). I'm not joking. This is the speed of the signals between neurons in the synapse.

So, thought cannot travel at the speed of light, or even close.

Fritz

you are making the same mistake that all western science has.... to associate the mind with the brain....actually the mind is to do with the spirit....and continues existence after the brain has died..

6th sense or supernatural abilities are to do with the mind...not the brain </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seriously, I'd never do that and western science doesn't either. In my previous posts, in other threads, I've gone to great lengths to describe the difference between the mind and the brain.

If the brain is the physical that facilitates the mind aka spirit, then I would like to compare this situation to a pilot and a plane.

The pilot can think about and imagine his flight plan, geography, and even different situations but he can't get there any faster than his plane.

I think when people think about the speed of thought, they confuse speed with complexity.

Try this. Imagine a place you are very familiar with. You probably got a vague picture in your mind. But, you can focus on any detail you can remember. So, take the view and try to focus, at least once, on whatever detail you remember.

See the speed limit. It takes time when you focus on each detail.

The "signals" in the "arms" of the neurons travel at extremely high speeds, the speed of electricty, but the messages in the gaps in the synapses (connections) where the chemical packets are transfered, only travel at about 360 mph.

Thankfully, the gaps are very small. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fritz

P.S. 360mph doesn't seem fast, but try to imagine this speed going from point A to point B, only the distance from point A to point B is very microscopic.

Another way to look at it, on a scale easier to imagine; Figure out how much time it would take you to go from New York to London if you traveling at 360mph. Then figure out the time it would you to go from your refridgerator to your oven traveling at 360mph.

Whirlin_merlin
01-30-2008, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Raaaid, thought travels at around 360 mph (358 IIRC). I'm not joking. This is the speed of the signals between neurons in the synapse.

So, thought cannot travel at the speed of light, or even close.

Fritz

you are making the same mistake that all western science has.... to associate the mind with the brain....actually the mind is to do with the spirit....and continues existence after the brain has died..

6th sense or supernatural abilities are to do with the mind...not the brain </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just love the way you always state your beliefs as absolute facts it's so refreshing.

Time to quote Douglas Adams please pay special attention Raaaaid.

'Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?'

fabianfred
01-30-2008, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by Whirlin_merlin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fabianfred:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Raaaid, thought travels at around 360 mph (358 IIRC). I'm not joking. This is the speed of the signals between neurons in the synapse.

So, thought cannot travel at the speed of light, or even close.

Fritz

you are making the same mistake that all western science has.... to associate the mind with the brain....actually the mind is to do with the spirit....and continues existence after the brain has died..

6th sense or supernatural abilities are to do with the mind...not the brain </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just love the way you always state your beliefs as absolute facts it's so refreshing.

Time to quote Douglas Adams please pay special attention Raaaaid.

'Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?' </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

to put it in perspective......the brain is like the CPU which runs the computer..
...and the mind or spirit....whichever you like to call it...is the electricity...without which the brain/CPU is dead

...we only believe something when we aren't certain about it.... what others see as my beliefs...are to me just knowledge of what is reality....we take what we learn...add it to our personal experience....and if we realise what is the truth...wisdom develops...
..there isn't a University in the world with courses in wisdom...we have to develop it ourselves....being careful not to confuse knowledge with wisdom
you can learn all the important stuff about life and yourself by meditation

MEGILE
01-30-2008, 02:02 AM
I'll take 'Western Science' and skepticism over faith (aka. the process of non-thinking) anyday.

I'm an open minded person (more than any theist/mystic), because I will accept anything (read change my perspective) IF there is sufficient evidence to do so.

MEGILE
01-30-2008, 02:16 AM
Originally posted by fabianfred:


you are making the same mistake that all western science has.... to associate the mind with the brain....actually the mind is to do with the spirit....

No, the mind is the product of a physical construct (aka the brain).

Drop some acid, and call me when you see Jesus/Bhudda/Oleg etc.

major_setback
01-30-2008, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by Megile:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by R_Target:
"If"?

I knew you were going to say that.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I knew you would quote him :^)

Pirschjaeger
01-30-2008, 02:51 AM
Pasta.

No matter how you cook it, no matter what sauce you use, no matter what shape it is, it's still pasta, even when it's a noodle.

As you guys know, I'm always advocating science. Science, at least in my opinion, is to some degree a faith. I can tell you the approximate speed in which neurons can communicate but to be honest, and I know you'll believe me, I have never measured it myself. I have to put my faith in scientists and their papers.

Science is a language of understanding just as religion is. It's just a different way. One language looks for a simple explanation to decribe the complex. The other looks for the complex to explan the simple.

If you study religion, there are many cases where religious teachings gave tangible conclusions before science did. Science just gave us the nitty-gritty.

The mystical spirit someone of religious faith might be referring to is to me the mind. No matter how you cook it up, it's still pasta, even if it's a noodle.

I'm very interested in hearing Fabians views. Buddhists by nature are scientists/philosophers. Their goal is to see the world and reality from a realistic view. It's hard for me to explain, but although they may sound subjective in detail, their big picture is objective.

At least that's my understanding. If I'm wrong, I welcome corrections.

Fritz

Friendly_flyer
01-30-2008, 03:01 AM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
being careful not to confuse knowledge with wisdom
you can learn all the important stuff about life and yourself by meditation

We should also take care not to confuse ignorance with wisdom.

As to the speed of thought: Neuron signals are even slower than Fritz said. The speed of a signal along a nerve is roughly 20 m/s (60 ft/s), it's well below the speed of electricity down a cable (which is again well below the speed of light).

As for brain and spirit. The CPU can't work without the current. The current won't exist without a medium (in this instance the CPU) to travel in. The brain/spirit relationship is a very complicated thing.

Pirschjaeger
01-30-2008, 03:42 AM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
....you can learn all the important stuff about life and yourself by meditation

Fabian,

is it possible you meant "....you can learn all the important stuff about your life and yourself by meditation"? From my understanding of Buddhism, it's all about removing yourself from the world in order to find your place.

If not, then I must disagree with you. Meditation is observation and contemplating of one's self. Buddhism spent years moving around and observing life when he wasn't meditating. He would sort and dicipher his observations while meditating.

Although he didn't test his hypothysis and theories, he was the most scientific of any of the founders of any religion. Scientific philosopher?

Fritz

Billy_BigBoy
01-30-2008, 03:49 AM
For once this is an intresting question Raaaid. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

A couple of years ago I read a book, sci-fi that is, in which deepspace missions communicated with earth through identical twins. The story goes there was no lag and no limit in distance, but faster than light had a side-effect. The twins didn't age at the same speed, so after a couple of years traveling the one that stayed home died of age. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

fabianfred
01-30-2008, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by fabianfred:
....you can learn all the important stuff about life and yourself by meditation

Fabian,

is it possible you meant "....you can learn all the important stuff about your life and yourself by meditation"? From my understanding of Buddhism, it's all about removing yourself from the world in order to find your place.

If not, then I must disagree with you. Meditation is observation and contemplating of one's self. Buddhism spent years moving around and observing life when he wasn't meditating. He would sort and dicipher his observations while meditating.

Although he didn't test his hypothysis and theories, he was the most scientific of any of the founders of any religion. Scientific philosopher?

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

you can find out about the 'important' things through the 'correct' form of meditation....

important being the things necessary to know...to live correctly and advance spiritually...not necessarily to advance materially

the worlds biggest problem is Ignorance...not meaning in its mis-used way of stupidity...but ignorance of the truth, of reality...not knowing

and, although it may sound unbelieveable, the way to enlightenment is to stop thinking....
just to see or hear or whatever, without thinking about it, or placing judgement on it..

fabianfred
01-30-2008, 04:09 AM
Originally posted by Billy_BigBoy:
For once this is an intresting question Raaaid. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

A couple of years ago I read a book, sci-fi that is, in which deepspace missions communicated with earth through identical twins. The story goes there was no lag and no limit in distance, but faster than light had a side-effect. The twins didn't age at the same speed, so after a couple of years traveling the one that stayed home died of age. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I have always been facinated by the telepathic connection between some identical twins...
maybe because I had a twin...who was delivered prematurely after four and a half months...but didn't survive

Capt.LoneRanger
01-30-2008, 04:14 AM
"Do you think this thread is worth opening the x-files again?"
http://l.yimg.com/img.tv.yahoo.com/tv/us/img/site/21/63/0000002163_20060919153745.jpg

Pirschjaeger
01-30-2008, 04:30 AM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
you can find out about the 'important' things through the 'correct' form of meditation......

Now here is where I'll make things complicated. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Originally posted by fabianfred:
important being the things necessary to know...to live correctly and advance spiritually...not necessarily to advance materially......

So, does this mean that it is more important to advance spiritually than to the advance one's knowledge?

My understanding of reality is based on observation, experience, and knowledge. This makes me spiritually comfortable and secure.


Originally posted by fabianfred:
the worlds biggest problem is Ignorance...not meaning in its mis-used way of stupidity...but ignorance of the truth, of reality...not knowing......

I agree 100%, as would almost all scientists.


Originally posted by fabianfred:
and, although it may sound unbelieveable, the way to enlightenment is to stop thinking....
just to see or hear or whatever, without thinking about it, or placing judgement on it..

Sounds like a controlled experiment or objective observation. Not so unbelievable.

Pasta is still pasta. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fritz

SeaFireLIV
01-30-2008, 04:42 AM
I`m with fabianfred here.

While there are many tricksters, etc who`d like to take advantage of our need to see more than just the `physical` plane, i do believe that there are things that go on that cannot be simply (or even complicatedly) explained by science.

Pirschjaeger reminds me much of the young student who has it all figured out with scientific logic.Science makes it all seem simple and explainable and therfore safe, so i can see why. But I promise you that in time, you`ll pause to rethink your views.

Pirschjaeger
01-30-2008, 04:43 AM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
"Do you think this thread is worth opening the x-files again?"
http://l.yimg.com/img.tv.yahoo.com/tv/us/img/site/21/63/0000002163_20060919153745.jpg

Good question.

The answer is out there,...somewhere.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Fritz

Pirschjaeger
01-30-2008, 04:53 AM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
While there are many tricksters, etc who`d like to take advantage of our need to see more than just the `physical` plane, i do believe that there are things that go on that cannot be simply (or even complicatedly) explained by science.

There doesn't have to be a limit placed on science. It is true, science is nowhere near explaining what life is. The scientific community is just as mystified as anyone else about the "why" and "how" at the current limits of our understanding as people of faiths. The difference is, some are just not ready to give up and accept a "best guess" over real answers. I feel fine not having an explanation. I'd feel defeated if I accepted a guess.

Fabian and I are not arguing religion vs science. If you read carefully I am drawing parallels between most of what Fabians says and what I'm saying (pasta is pasta). In many ways, I think Fabian and I are communicating the same message, we are just using different languages.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Pirschjaeger reminds me much of the young student who has it all figured out with scientific logic.Science makes it all seem simple and explainable and therfore safe, so i can see why. But I promise you that in time, you`ll pause to rethink your views.

Then you truly do not understand what I write. It is quite the opposite actually. The truth has not been found, by anyone yet. But it is a human habit to seek the truth. Fabian describes his search method. I describe mine, but neither one of us proclaims to have found it.

Seafire, you cannot see the parallels?

Fritz

P.S. Here you go Seafire. Link (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2141028826?r=2181010036#2181010036)
Look at the last few posts. Does this sound like someone who thinks he has the answers?

buzzsaw1939
01-30-2008, 05:33 AM
Fritz... Your spooking me!...it appears you and I have walked the same road, I understand every word you say, just like it's comeing out of my own head, I just wish I could communicate as well as you, old age thing! if we were friends, we would have much to talk about, like a young woman said to Richard Bauch in an interview once, "I always thought I was alone with these thoughts"

And yes, I agree, you and Fabian are basicly talking the same thing!

fabianfred
01-30-2008, 05:35 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:

So, does this mean that it is more important to advance spiritually than to the advance one's knowledge?
Fritz
yes......just knowledge for the sake of it is of no value.... many of the most advanced Buddhist monks in Thailand were from very poor and simple backgrounds...often becoming novices before the age of ten and ordained for life..... worldly knowledge, not so much, but immense wisdom...because they reached the state of enlightenment...


My understanding of reality is based on observation, experience, and knowledge. This makes me spiritually comfortable and secure.




Originally posted by fabianfred:
and, although it may sound unbelieveable, the way to enlightenment is to stop thinking....
just to see or hear or whatever, without thinking about it, or placing judgement on it..

Sounds like a controlled experiment or objective observation. Not so unbelievable.

well...most people in the west would say that if you stop thinking...you are no more than a cabbage...when in fact it is the way to ultimate wisdom...(but very difficult to accomplish)

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif

raaaid
01-30-2008, 05:42 AM
let me ask you something fabian:

im serching for enlightment, mainly i keep good but im quite scientifical

i developed a method which i commented here in which by the use of sight i make both hemispheres syncronize which normally doesnt happen

ive noticed often i manged to leave my mind in blank while doing this but not only that i STOP COMPLETELY moving the eyes

and i think thats deep meditation when your mind doesnt even look at what you see then it begins to darken

but this is ver difficult you have to forget completely what you see so you dont move your eyes , difficult

what else can i do in my search for enlightenment?

i even think somebody do bad things like putting fluorine into water which calcifies pineal gland actually a light sensor, the third eye?, in order to avoid peoples enlightement

roybaty
01-30-2008, 05:51 AM
Raaid you have to take your meds everyday.

fabianfred
01-30-2008, 06:13 AM
Raaid.... having your mind blank isn't the same as no thoughts...
many meditation systems put you into deep concentration states where you lose all feeling and knowledge of the outside world.... but they are not the way to enlightenment...

they are like sticking your head in the sand to avoid seeing the danger....it doesn't get rid of the danger..... whereas seeing and recognising the danger for what it is, causes it to lose its dangerous state

Pirschjaeger
01-30-2008, 07:00 AM
Buzzsaw,

if that spooks you, I'll show you what spooks me.

Hawkin's Universe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd1tgLQg4ZU)

It's part one of a 5 part series.

While watching this, the hairs on my arms stood up. "I always thought I was alone with these thoughts"

I believe the secret will be found with a better understanding of gravity. Gravity, to me, is the force that refreshes the universe by collecting all matter to a singular point in which the universe will be reborn. To me, the universe has no end and no beginning. It just always was and will always be.

Let me know when you've finished watching it. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fabian,

"yes......just knowledge for the sake of it is of no value.... "

I agree 100%. The aquisition of knowledge and wisdom for the sake of giving and sharing to others is a duty every human has to humanity as a whole. It's a practical application.

I also agree with you about the need to stop thinking sometimes. As a comparison, it's like talking. If you are always talking, you are not listening, and therefore not learning.

Even an infant knows this instinctively. When a baby is crying, whisper in it's ear. Most often the baby will stop crying to hear what you are saying.

I think, and now I'll make connections to ontology, we lose our "selfs" to conform with society and live as our fake selfs and therefore lose our spirituality. It's the infants real self that choses to listen while the adult self is repressed resulting in the adults ignorance of self-being.

I think what you might be talking about, or at least in part, is finding your real self in a sea of fake selves and learning how to be yourself. That would be one form of enlightenment.

I think Buddhism is the only religion that is not a religion. It's based on reality. It's simply to big to be ignored and therefore recognized by religions.

Are we on the same channel? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Raaaid,

I've seen you take a lot of BS from this community and others. Although your ideas are sometimes strange I have to respect you for your "pursuit of everything". I just wish more people had the courage to face the mob.

I see no difference in the puruit of wisdom and the pursuit of enlightenment. Maybe different paths, but these are two raods that lead to Rome.

Fritz

BadA1m
01-30-2008, 07:16 AM
I think part of what Fabian has been thinking about is the difference between thinking and talking to yourself. Pure thought is much different, and quite the object of meditation (at least in some aspects). When you can get to the point of quelling the 'noise' in your head, some real thought can begin.
A similar concept can be found even in Christian thought; Prayer cannot always be just a constant pleading with God for what I want, I must also quietly listen for what He wants.
Fancy me aggreeing with a Bhuddist and a scientist, and you all thought Christians were supposed to check thier brains at the door!

Pirschjaeger
01-30-2008, 07:41 AM
Bad,

there's a scientist, neurogist to be exact, who studies just what you are talking about. He's mapped the activity of the brain while it was meditating and then did the same with brains that were praying.

Guess what; the results were the same.

I think his name is Andy/Andrew Bergman.

Anyway, the Christian came down on him right away claiming he was a heretic. The funny thing is, in an interview, he was asked if this was proof of god. He said he didn't know but he said it could be proof of some sort of internatal communication method with god. Yet, the Christians attacked. Left their brains at the door, so to say. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Here in the west we are pretty lucky. We have personal space. For anyone who doesn't believe this, stand within an inch of a Canadian. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Personal space varies depending on the nation the person comes from. In Canada we have lots of space so our personal space is quite large. But although Chinese have a large country, the majority are crammed into noise, dirty, over crowded cities. They do have a personal space but it is on the inside. It's a bit wierd to be in a busy area and see everyone expressionless. What they are actually doing is tuning out the surroundings.

They've explained that it happens 2 ways. One way is that their last thought simply replays over and over. Others claim they just stop thinking, a total shut down.

Fabian,

I've been to Thailand but only for a week. I stayed in Bangkok. Now there's an over populated city. But what impressed both my wife and I was that as crowded as it gets, the people are still very friendly, smiling, and very polite. They never bump elbows and if they do, they quickly make a point of apologizing.

My wife and I often talk of moving there. As a teacher there are many jobs available for me. As a fitness trainer and dance instructor, not to mention Chinese teacher, there are many opportunities for my wife too.

You've lived there for a while I think. Can you say the behavior of the Thai people is directly related to Buddhism?

Fritz

stathem
01-30-2008, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Billy_BigBoy:
For once this is an intresting question Raaaid. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

A couple of years ago I read a book, sci-fi that is, in which deepspace missions communicated with earth through identical twins. The story goes there was no lag and no limit in distance, but faster than light had a side-effect. The twins didn't age at the same speed, so after a couple of years traveling the one that stayed home died of age. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I have always been facinated by the telepathic connection between some identical twins...
maybe because I had a twin...who was delivered prematurely after four and a half months...but didn't survive </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here's a thought.

You're all familiar with quantum ˜spooky action at a distance'?

That is, if one creates a pair of quantum entangled particles, the quantum state of one will always be opposite the quantum state of the other. This can be anything, the spin state along a certain axis of an electron or the polarisation property of a photon.

Now, we will not know the state until we measure it – and at that instant, we will know the state of the other, regardless of how far the pair are separated in time and/or space from the event of the creation of the 2 particles. However, this does not mean that we can transmit information at superluminal speed, because we can never know the state of the particle until we measure it – and it will always have a 50% chance of being in one state or the other.

How does this relate to the observed closeness of twins? Here's my conjecture.

We don't yet, as far as I am aware, know the how of memory storage and thought process in the brain. Sure we know roughly where they reside physically, but not how they work. Say, for argument, that in some way memory and thought is influenced by the quantum states of sub-atomic particles in the neurons. Unlikely, I grant. But if that were the case, could it be possible that particularly close people, like identical twins who were created from the same zygote, have quantum entangled particles in their brains? And, if something traumatic happens to one twin, might not the effect of using the particle's state in the thought processes happening in one twin cause the observable state of the other particle in the other twin's brain to create certain thought processes to fire off?

Now there's two (or at least two) problems with this.

One is that I don't know of any biochemical process (in Humans) that actually creates quantum particles (however certain species can create, for example, photons).

The other is that in a human, typically, all the cells and the chemicals within are replaced on a regular basis. So, if the particles were created whist the twins were still one cell, they most certainly wouldn't still be present in the adult individual. So, unless the information which goes to make up an individual (as opposed to a collection of chemicals), and which does not change as the individual grows older (ie the software written on the DNA; or memories) can in some way effect the creation and utilisation of the quantum states, then...

SeaFireLIV
01-30-2008, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
While there are many tricksters, etc who`d like to take advantage of our need to see more than just the `physical` plane, i do believe that there are things that go on that cannot be simply (or even complicatedly) explained by science.

There doesn't have to be a limit placed on science. It is true, science is nowhere near explaining what life is. The scientific community is just as mystified as anyone else about the "why" and "how" at the current limits of our understanding as people of faiths. The difference is, some are just not ready to give up and accept a "best guess" over real answers. I feel fine not having an explanation. I'd feel defeated if I accepted a guess.

Fabian and I are not arguing religion vs science. If you read carefully I am drawing parallels between most of what Fabians says and what I'm saying (pasta is pasta). In many ways, I think Fabian and I are communicating the same message, we are just using different languages.


Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
Pirschjaeger reminds me much of the young student who has it all figured out with scientific logic.Science makes it all seem simple and explainable and therfore safe, so i can see why. But I promise you that in time, you`ll pause to rethink your views.

Then you truly do not understand what I write. It is quite the opposite actually. The truth has not been found, by anyone yet. But it is a human habit to seek the truth. Fabian describes his search method. I describe mine, but neither one of us proclaims to have found it.

Seafire, you cannot see the parallels?

Fritz

P.S. Here you go Seafire. Link (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/2141028826?r=2181010036#2181010036)
Look at the last few posts. Does this sound like someone who thinks he has the answers? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I didn`t read your posts deep enough. I see your point now.

fabianfred
01-30-2008, 11:47 AM
Pirch.... you say that the truth has not been found...by anyone yet.....but it has...
The buddha found and taught it......and when it is corrupted and forgotten and lost ...we have to wait for another buddha to appear, to re-discover it and teach it.....but they are very rare...and the truth is too profound for ordinary men to discover...
Buddhism is not really a religion....the buddha did not start a religion.... he discovered what had been forgotten....and taught it...
The dhamma/dharma is the laws of nature...and the most important of these is the law of karma...which effects all beings...whether they know it or not....believe it or not....
just as rain and gravity do not choose to have an effect only upon those of this faith or that...but is equal to all...so is karma...

yes...I believe the Thai people are very much a product of their Buddhism

SeaFireLIV
01-30-2008, 12:50 PM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
Pirch.... you say that the truth has not been found...by anyone yet.....but it has...
The buddha found and taught it......and when it is corrupted and forgotten and lost ...we have to wait for another buddha to appear, to re-discover it and teach it.....but they are very rare...and the truth is too profound for ordinary men to discover...
Buddhism is not really a religion....the buddha did not start a religion.... he discovered what had been forgotten....and taught it...
The dhamma/dharma is the laws of nature...and the most important of these is the law of karma...which effects all beings...whether they know it or not....believe it or not....
just as rain and gravity do not choose to have an effect only upon those of this faith or that...but is equal to all...so is karma...

yes...I believe the Thai people are very much a product of their Buddhism

My karma must be completely rubbish then...

MEGILE
01-30-2008, 01:46 PM
Originally posted by fabianfred:

just as rain and gravity do not choose to have an effect only upon those of this faith or that...but is equal to all...so is karma...



nope.

mortoma
01-30-2008, 07:21 PM
Holy ****! I got a few threads locked by TOAD a while back that were far more on topic than this stuff. What's the deal??

fabianfred
01-30-2008, 07:44 PM
what could be more on topic than the facts of life..... lol

perhaps many found the discourse interesting...and it didn't descend into a cat-fight http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/halo.gif

fabianfred
01-30-2008, 07:49 PM
Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:

My karma must be completely rubbish then...

not at all...to have been born in the West to a relatively comfortable lifestyle you obviously came in to this life with a credit balance..

If you want to know what you did in your past life....look at what you ARE now....if you want to know what you will be in your next life..... look at what you DO now...

Copperhead311th
01-30-2008, 08:57 PM
Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
"Do you think this thread is worth opening the x-files again?"
http://l.yimg.com/img.tv.yahoo.com/tv/us/img/site/21/63/0000002163_20060919153745.jpg

Nope but I sure would like to open Scully up one good time! Whhhoooooo Whoooooo! Grrrrrrrrrr! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

fabianfred
01-30-2008, 10:37 PM
We're back to earth I see...... http://media.ubi.com/us/forum_images/gf-glomp.gif

Skoshi Tiger
01-31-2008, 05:29 AM
Telepathy must exist, When I used to hang around in bars , I'ld walk up to a girl and they'd slap me before I even talked!

Now I just have to think about Telepathy and my wife slaps me...

Owwww!

Why did you do that!

raaaid
01-31-2008, 05:48 AM
this idea of telepathy being trully precognition is mine, i might even have been the 1st to think about it

so its good i have a place to discuss it contrary to the lfs forums

BadA1m
01-31-2008, 06:29 AM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Bad,

there's a scientist, neurogist to be exact, who studies just what you are talking about. He's mapped the activity of the brain while it was meditating and then did the same with brains that were praying.

Guess what; the results were the same.

I think his name is Andy/Andrew Bergman.

Anyway, the Christian came down on him right away claiming he was a heretic. The funny thing is, in an interview, he was asked if this was proof of god. He said he didn't know but he said it could be proof of some sort of internatal communication method with god. Yet, the Christians attacked. Left their brains at the door, so to say. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Fritz

Ah Fritz, see you misunderstood me, I meant that Christians aren't required to check their Brains, but Christians being naturally dilligent folk often go beond the call of duty and not only check those brains but stuff them in a can and claim it's to the glory of God.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

The other thing is that anyone can claim to be a Christian (just like Dr Phil claims to be a psychiatrist), and even true believers can be wrong. (just as I am sure that I'm wrong in at least half of my thoughts on this subject; I'm just not sure which half):P

The fact of the matter is that if science doesn't support Christianity, then I'm wasting my time. I'm not into kidding myself, I determined long ago that any god I can make up for myself is a fools god (me being the fool) and I went in search of the one that made me up for Himself.

BTW; I called myself a Bhuddist for years and have a deep respect for eastern thought, I just think that they stopped short at the creation and missed the Creator.

Pirschjaeger
01-31-2008, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by mortoma:
Holy ****! I got a few threads locked by TOAD a while back that were far more on topic than this stuff. What's the deal??

TOAD hates you but likes us. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

Fritz

fabianfred
01-31-2008, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by BadA1m:
BTW; I called myself a Bhuddist for years and have a deep respect for eastern thought, I just think that they stopped short at the creation and missed the Creator.

Hey Bada1m......I'd love to have a PM conversation with you.....Buddhism teaches exactly where the creator myth comes from....

but the Buddha warned about thinking about things which couldn't be answered, and wasting time from pursuing enlightenment...

unanswerable questions like...
where did the earth come from....
where did mankind come from....
how did the universe start...

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2008, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by BadA1m:
Ah Fritz, see you misunderstood me, I meant that Christians aren't required to check their Brains, but Christians being naturally dilligent folk often go beond the call of duty and not only check those brains but stuff them in a can and claim it's to the glory of God.http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


I wish it were that simple. I've often wondered why the Kansas mob doesn't just say "Yeah, god did it". Why this whole ID thing?

People who argue that science is threatening their religion must have very little faith in their beliefs.

It's simple. Darwin identified evolution just seconds after god decided it was time to come clean. DNA was discovered just seconds after god decided we were ready. Man landed on the moon because god wanted him to. It's simple. No scientist would even care if the church was saying this.

Ironicaly, when a tsunami wipes out hundreds of thousands of people, leaves them suffering and hopeless, people say "God has his reasons. We can't possible understand.". This boils my blood.

Is it time to open up a can of whoopa$$ on a sick and perverted god? How do I know he's sick and perverted? His PR people told me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Fritz

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2008, 12:33 PM
BTW Mort, I was only teasing you. TOAD loves all the people equally, all TOAD's people around the world. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Fabian,

I got to thinking(surprise, surprise), we've been talking about finding "truth". What is "truth"? How will we know when we find it? Do you think it is possible that "truth" is different for each individual?

Fritz

fabianfred
02-01-2008, 05:35 PM
the Truth ...is what is real...what actually is....not what we misconstrue or misunderstand to be...the Truth is universal..not personal

the law of karma is real....but our personal understanding of it....or disbelief...may not be the truth.....it is as universal and incorruptable as the law of gravity (as an example)...and has the same effect on all...not just those who believe in it or undestand it correctly
karma is a very deep and profound subject....but it isn't difficult to understand the basics of it

Pirschjaeger
02-01-2008, 06:07 PM
Admittedly I know little about Buddhism. But I thought that the goal, or at least in part, of a Buddhist was to learn how the individual relates to reality. I know there are different sects as with other beliefs, but this was told to me by a Korean Buddhist.

Also, isn't it part of the Buddhists goal to realize his/her insignificance in the grand scheme of things

Fritz

buzzsaw1939
02-01-2008, 06:32 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
Admittedly I know little about Buddhism. But I thought that the goal, or at least in part, of a Buddhist was to learn how the individual relates to reality. I know there are different sects as with other beliefs, but this was told to me by a Korean Buddhist.

Also, isn't it part of the Buddhists goal to realize his/her insignificance in the grand scheme of things

Fritz

Fritz.. I too have come to understand those same things.

I also understand that karma has nothing to do with past lives, it has to do with the presents of being.

I always felt that if I was to devote my life to any belief system, it would be Buddhism, although I find myself in a deep reverance for all life, I still step on spiders! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/sadeyes.gif

Maybe there is different schools of Buddhism now, just the way the Christians did, who know?

SeaFireLIV
02-01-2008, 06:43 PM
The best way to blow one true belief is in having so many religions/beliefs that people just get confused and stop. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

fabianfred
02-01-2008, 07:43 PM
that is the way of all religions...the further in time from their creation...the more corrupted they become...
after the Buddha died (passed on to the state of Nirvana) his followers gradually started to have their own opinions on how to interpret the teachings...and as Buddhism spread to other nations...it became mixed with their own native beliefs..
the Buddha proclaimed that his teaching would last for 5 thousand years...after which all trace of the true teaching would be lost...until the next buddha comes to teach again...and we are already over half-way there....2551 by the Buddhist calender

A Buddhist should try to diminish the ego....but his main aim is to achieve the state of nirvana...by using the methods taught by the Buddha...Nirvana is being one with all nature....like a drop of water returning to the ocean...but still remaining as a drop..

Karma has everything to do with past lives....karma is created with every act .... be it positive, negative, or neutral karma...which gives a corresponding result.... what we are in this life is a result of the past karma accumulated throughout countless previous lives... in the human realm, animal realm, hell realms, heaven realms etc...wherever our past karma has taken us

Targ
02-01-2008, 08:26 PM
My Karma ran over my Dogma

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/1072.gif

buzzsaw1939
02-01-2008, 09:45 PM
Fabian...I understand what your saying, but being a logic freak, I found my current understanding to make more sense to me.

if we all had past lives, and theres a lot more people here now than in the past, then someone must be printing up counterfit people! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I guess the best way to look at my personal beliefs is that we are all one!

heywooood
02-01-2008, 10:42 PM
keep 'em coming raaaaid - no one grows threadtrees like you bro

fabianfred
02-01-2008, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Fabian...I understand what your saying, but being a logic freak, I found my current understanding to make more sense to me.

if we all had past lives, and theres a lot more people here now than in the past, then someone must be printing up counterfit people! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I guess the best way to look at my personal beliefs is that we are all one!

beings can be born into various states...the human realm is the smallest..... the animal realm...hungry ghost realm...hell realms...heaven realms....

in the Buddhist scriptures they mention.... if all humans could fit on the head of a pin.....beings in the heaven realms would cover the surface of the earth....if heavenly beings were to cover the head of a pin...then hell beings would cover the surface of the earth

the difficulty of being born in the human realm is compared to..... a blind old turtle which swims about the ocean...the whole surface of the earth is covered in one big ocean...and floating on that ocean, pushed here and there by wind and current is a wooden ring (about the size of a toilet lid)....once every hundred years the turtle will come to the surface...what is the chance that its head will surface in the middle of the ring......

SeaFireLIV
02-02-2008, 02:17 AM
So Earth is not the only place Humans can be born, or at least our souls. One thing about this kind of stuff, is that people on earth always compare earthly reason to question stuff to do that which is beyond earth and our understanding.

It`s easy to ask "why?" But are we able to understand Why?

Just my musings again...

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Picture.jpg

buzzsaw1939
02-02-2008, 04:15 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif.... The ahh...smallest blind hungry ghost turtle..ah...puts head through....toilet ring, and...ah...pushes the.. ah, ocean surface..floating.. for a hundred years..something..with the head of a pin,.... eerrr something! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Sorry Fabian, your way over my head with that stuff, I'll have to take your word for it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

I'll just go with what works for me for now, I'm just here for the experience of life, bad or good, were just going to have to wait for the big sleep to find out about the rest. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Pirschjaeger
02-02-2008, 04:26 AM
Originally posted by buzzsaw1939:
Fabian...I understand what your saying, but being a logic freak, I found my current understanding to make more sense to me.

if we all had past lives, and theres a lot more people here now than in the past, then someone must be printing up counterfit people! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif

I guess the best way to look at my personal beliefs is that we are all one!

I used to think this way too. Here's a "what if". Something to contemplate.

What if the total count of life throughout the universe remains constant, regardless of how many living beings there are?

Nature has a way of recycling itself. Imagine a person dies. That life doesn't go on to be another live but rather parts of many lives. A single cell is alive but doesn't seem to have "life" by our standards, subjectively speaking. But put enough of those pieces of life together and you get a conscience, a product of a collective of pieces of life. When that life/being dies, it is the conscience that dies but the individual life parts don't. They will be recycled to become part of another conscience.

You mentioned that there are more people than before. It is also true that there are much fewer animals than before. This is without considering other life in the universe.

Today, there are molecules of water flowing through your veins that once flowed through the veins of dinosaurs. Maybe pieces of life flowing through your "being" once flowed through a dinosaurs 'being".

Of course, this is just a passing thought (no pun intended) but it is interesting me thinks.

Fritz

buzzsaw1939
02-02-2008, 06:43 AM
I think it's more than just a passing thought Fritz...I think it's tied in with the idea of cellular memory, very interesting idea about the animal numbers, hadn't thought of that, it does fit doesn't it?

Even the molecules of air are recirculated.

Thats why I say "we are all one"! http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

BadA1m
02-02-2008, 08:42 AM
I wish it were that simple. I've often wondered why the Kansas mob doesn't just say "Yeah, god did it". Why this whole ID thing?

People who argue that science is threatening their religion must have very little faith in their beliefs.

It's simple. Darwin identified evolution just seconds after god decided it was time to come clean. DNA was discovered just seconds after god decided we were ready. Man landed on the moon because god wanted him to. It's simple. No scientist would even care if the church was saying this.

Ironicaly, when a tsunami wipes out hundreds of thousands of people, leaves them suffering and hopeless, people say "God has his reasons. We can't possible understand.". This boils my blood.

Is it time to open up a can of whoopa$$ on a sick and perverted god? How do I know he's sick and perverted? His PR people told me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Fritz

As to my statements, it is that simple, if anyone argues that science is threatening thier religion, then they do have little faith.

I personally don't care what you think of me Fritz, and I don't care what you you think of my God, that's His problem, but I do care about you, and that's 100% a result of God's work in my life as is the fact that you care about 100,000 people you don't know dying. You can argue evolution 'till your blue in the face, but you will never be able to explain love with it.

Please don't waste your time explaining chemical reactions and survival instincts, I'm a man of science, I'm quite familiar with all of that. Please just explain how all that causes a man to dive onto a grenade to save his buddies, or travel thousands of miles to feed hungry peope.....and bury bodies.

I won't try to marginalize your faith with weak and insulting generalizations, please offer me the same courtesy.

If thought that my ideas on this subject were just as valid as anyone elses, I forgot that I'm a member of a stupid and uneducated mob and I apoligize for forgetting my rightful place.

I was so hoping to have a nice conversation about the weightier matters of the universe with some inteligent people .....they are so hard to find. I have no interest in converting anyone, and I have no capability of doing so.

If I sound angry Fritz, I'm not very, and I'll get over it, I just expected more from you.

BadA1m
02-02-2008, 08:50 AM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
the Truth ...is what is real...what actually is....not what we misconstrue or misunderstand to be...the Truth is universal..not personal

the law of karma is real....but our personal understanding of it....or disbelief...may not be the truth.....it is as universal and incorruptable as the law of gravity (as an example)...and has the same effect on all...not just those who believe in it or undestand it correctly
karma is a very deep and profound subject....but it isn't difficult to understand the basics of it

Dude, you actualy understand what truth is....that's way cool, very few people can differeniate truth from opinion, or resort to semantics to explain how they get to have thier own truth.

It's refreshing.

Outlaw---
02-02-2008, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
the Truth ...is what is real...what actually is....not what we misconstrue or misunderstand to be...the Truth is universal..not personal

I find it amazing that people ask the question, what is "truth". It is simply a definition.



Originally posted by fabianfred:
the law of karma is real....but our personal understanding of it....or disbelief...may not be the truth.....it is as universal and incorruptable as the law of gravity (as an example)...and has the same effect on all...not just those who believe in it or undestand it correctly
karma is a very deep and profound subject....but it isn't difficult to understand the basics of it

Even more amazing is that when someone states that God is real it provokes an almost immediate slew of "prove it" type responses, yet, statements like, "...law of karma is real...it is as universal and incorruptable as the law of gravity...not just those who believe in it or undestand it correctly", do not.

--Outlaw.

fabianfred
02-02-2008, 10:07 AM
The thing is...that if someone says that that little child of four died in the tsunami...but was quite innocent and too young to have been evil..... but god allowed it to happen...because it was his will.....and he moves in mysterious ways....we should not question god

people find that hard to accept..

but if we say that...yes the seemingly innocent child died....but he died because he had created the potential in an earlier life....by killing others...although we cannot know his past....so what we sow, so we reap, this is the law of karma

people can find logic in that and easier to accept

joeap
02-02-2008, 10:31 AM
Sorry Fred, that I can't agree with because you are saying those who suffer in this life deserve it? So could that not be a recipe for inaction? On the part of those who suffer injustice or difficulty, and it could be taken as "wrong" to help them? Might one also say those who make others suffer are paying back for something that was done in an earlier life???

Well I do not mean to sound provocative but am only asking questions as I find your posts on this thread very interesting.

Pirschjaeger
02-02-2008, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by BadA1m:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wish it were that simple. I've often wondered why the Kansas mob doesn't just say "Yeah, god did it". Why this whole ID thing?

People who argue that science is threatening their religion must have very little faith in their beliefs.

It's simple. Darwin identified evolution just seconds after god decided it was time to come clean. DNA was discovered just seconds after god decided we were ready. Man landed on the moon because god wanted him to. It's simple. No scientist would even care if the church was saying this.

Ironicaly, when a tsunami wipes out hundreds of thousands of people, leaves them suffering and hopeless, people say "God has his reasons. We can't possible understand.". This boils my blood.

Is it time to open up a can of whoopa$$ on a sick and perverted god? How do I know he's sick and perverted? His PR people told me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Fritz

As to my statements, it is that simple, if anyone argues that science is threatening thier religion, then they do have little faith.

I personally don't care what you think of me Fritz, and I don't care what you you think of my God, that's His problem, but I do care about you, and that's 100% a result of God's work in my life as is the fact that you care about 100,000 people you don't know dying. You can argue evolution 'till your blue in the face, but you will never be able to explain love with it.

Please don't waste your time explaining chemical reactions and survival instincts, I'm a man of science, I'm quite familiar with all of that. Please just explain how all that causes a man to dive onto a grenade to save his buddies, or travel thousands of miles to feed hungry peope.....and bury bodies.

I won't try to marginalize your faith with weak and insulting generalizations, please offer me the same courtesy.

If thought that my ideas on this subject were just as valid as anyone elses, I forgot that I'm a member of a stupid and uneducated mob and I apoligize for forgetting my rightful place.

I was so hoping to have a nice conversation about the weightier matters of the universe with some inteligent people .....they are so hard to find. I have no interest in converting anyone, and I have no capability of doing so.

If I sound angry Fritz, I'm not very, and I'll get over it, I just expected more from you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, I've been trying to see where my post has somehow offended you but have failed.

Are you from Kansas? Bad, I thought I was agreeing with you.

Mind quoting the part that offended you?

Fritz

Whirlin_merlin
02-02-2008, 10:51 AM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
The thing is...that if someone says that that little child of four died in the tsunami...but was quite innocent and too young to have been evil..... but god allowed it to happen...because it was his will.....and he moves in mysterious ways....we should not question god

people find that hard to accept..

but if we say that...yes the seemingly innocent child died....but he died because he had created the potential in an earlier life....by killing others...although we cannot know his past....so what we sow, so we reap, this is the law of karma

people can find logic in that and easier to accept

I see no logic in that and do not find it easier accept than the reality, that bad things happen in the universe beacause it is not governed by any law or power that is even capable of being concerned with humanity. It just is.
So we better look after each other because no god or law of karma is going to do it for us.

Outlaw---
02-02-2008, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by joeap:
Sorry Fred, that I can't agree with because you are saying those who suffer in this life deserve it? So could that not be a recipe for inaction? On the part of those who suffer injustice or difficulty, and it could be taken as "wrong" to help them? Might one also say those who make others suffer are paying back for something that was done in an earlier life???

Well I do not mean to sound provocative but am only asking questions as I find your posts on this thread very interesting.

Exactly, although admittedly I'm not up on karmic law so bear with me as I pose two situations for analysis by those that are aware...

If the tsunami is punishing those who need to be punished, and I lessen their suffering by aiding them, does my karma suffer?

Also, could I not aid karma by trying to shoot as many people as I can square in the head? If they don't deserve it, karma should cause me to miss right?

--Outlaw.

fabianfred
02-02-2008, 12:54 PM
it is not a matter of deserving it....those who are suffering have created the cause themselves in the past....but we should still feel sorry for them and try to relieve their suffering...
that is not seen as meddling with their karma...but we are getting positive karma by trying to help them...

to say "it serves them right" and ignore them is not a noble way to be....

those who are killed/murdered by someone have quite often killed that person in a past life....and this can result in a viscious circle of retribution and revenge which will continue for many lifetimes...

that is why we should feel sorry for those who we see creating negative karma for themselves...because we know they will suffer for it in the future..

If something is stolen from me...I think....maybe I stole from that person in a past life.....and forgive them for their act.... this forgiveness breaks the circle...i do not want to take revenge...and my forgiveness lessens their punishment too....but not completely

the law of karma governs the universe...completely fair and unbias....not like some god who favours those who worship him and punishes those who do not

Outlaw---
02-02-2008, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
it is not a matter of deserving it....those who are suffering have created the cause themselves in the past....but we should still feel sorry for them and try to relieve their suffering...
that is not seen as meddling with their karma...but we are getting positive karma by trying to help them...


What if I'm standing next to a guy whose karma is causing another guy to throw a grenade at him? Will my karma protect me or does the fact that I'm standing there in the first place reflect the fact that I also previously pissed off the thrower?



Originally posted by fabianfred:
to say "it serves them right" and ignore them is not a noble way to be....


Where does "nobility" fit into karmic law? What are the effects of me being noble versus not? What is karma's definition of "noble"?



Originally posted by fabianfred:
those who are killed/murdered by someone have quite often killed that person in a past life....and this can result in a viscious circle of retribution and revenge which will continue for many lifetimes...

that is why we should feel sorry for those who we see creating negative karma for themselves...because we know they will suffer for it in the future..


Should we punish the killer or will that negatively affect our karma for making him suffer?

What is the effect on my karma if I stop one person from killing another when the targeted person brought it on by killing that person in a past life? In that instance am I not interfering with karma's intentions?


Originally posted by fabianfred:
If something is stolen from me...I think....maybe I stole from that person in a past life.....and forgive them for their act.... this forgiveness breaks the circle...i do not want to take revenge...and my forgiveness lessens their punishment too....but not completely


If I'm pointing a gun at someone's head threatening to kill them, and they say they forgive me, and I then forgive them for killing me in a past life (otherwise I wouldn't be doing this in the first place), do I get a freebie killing and a broken chain for the double forgiveness?

What if I do it really quick and clean as opposed to starting at the ankles and working my way up for as long as I have ammo? Does that count for anything?


--Outlaw.

BadA1m
02-02-2008, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Pirschjaeger:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by BadA1m:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wish it were that simple. I've often wondered why the Kansas mob doesn't just say "Yeah, god did it". Why this whole ID thing?

People who argue that science is threatening their religion must have very little faith in their beliefs.

It's simple. Darwin identified evolution just seconds after god decided it was time to come clean. DNA was discovered just seconds after god decided we were ready. Man landed on the moon because god wanted him to. It's simple. No scientist would even care if the church was saying this.

Ironicaly, when a tsunami wipes out hundreds of thousands of people, leaves them suffering and hopeless, people say "God has his reasons. We can't possible understand.". This boils my blood.

Is it time to open up a can of whoopa$$ on a sick and perverted god? How do I know he's sick and perverted? His PR people told me. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

Fritz

As to my statements, it is that simple, if anyone argues that science is threatening thier religion, then they do have little faith.

I personally don't care what you think of me Fritz, and I don't care what you you think of my God, that's His problem, but I do care about you, and that's 100% a result of God's work in my life as is the fact that you care about 100,000 people you don't know dying. You can argue evolution 'till your blue in the face, but you will never be able to explain love with it.

Please don't waste your time explaining chemical reactions and survival instincts, I'm a man of science, I'm quite familiar with all of that. Please just explain how all that causes a man to dive onto a grenade to save his buddies, or travel thousands of miles to feed hungry peope.....and bury bodies.

I won't try to marginalize your faith with weak and insulting generalizations, please offer me the same courtesy.

If thought that my ideas on this subject were just as valid as anyone elses, I forgot that I'm a member of a stupid and uneducated mob and I apoligize for forgetting my rightful place.

I was so hoping to have a nice conversation about the weightier matters of the universe with some inteligent people .....they are so hard to find. I have no interest in converting anyone, and I have no capability of doing so.

If I sound angry Fritz, I'm not very, and I'll get over it, I just expected more from you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, I've been trying to see where my post has somehow offended you but have failed.

Are you from Kansas? Bad, I thought I was agreeing with you.

Mind quoting the part that offended you?

Fritz </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I knew I would regret sending that post. I know that things can easily be taken the wrong way in print, and it seems that I've done that here, although I fail to see where you aggree with me just as you fail to see how you offended me.

In my defense I can only offer up a really long week and a general annoyance at a condecending and insulting scientific community.

I hate to be lumped in with every idiot who ever claimed to be Christian, and severe sleep deprivation causes me to spout scriptures, beat people over the head randomly with a Bible and see lumping where apparently there is none.

I appoligize for my lack of grace Fritz. I must now not speak for several days.......http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

buzzsaw1939
02-02-2008, 05:47 PM
fabian... I was afraid that, (I have the truth) typ of stuff would start a furball!

That sounds too much like all the rest of the religions, not a belief!

But just for the record, I still think your one of the good guys! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

BadA1m
02-02-2008, 05:54 PM
Aw ****, now I can't remember where this all started.......

buzzsaw1939
02-02-2008, 06:17 PM
Raaaaaid!... Lets get him! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

fabianfred
02-02-2008, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Outlaw---:
What if I'm standing next to a guy whose karma is causing another guy to throw a grenade at him? Will my karma protect me or does the fact that I'm standing there in the first place reflect the fact that I also previously pissed off the thrower?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">maybe the grenade will leave you uninjured!!...you may just be due a short life because you liked taking life in a previous lifetime...


Where does "nobility" fit into karmic law? What are the effects of me being noble versus not? What is karma's definition of "noble"?



noble means doing the good thing


Should we punish the killer or will that negatively affect our karma for making him suffer?

What is the effect on my karma if I stop one person from killing another when the targeted person brought it on by killing that person in a past life? In that instance am I not interfering with karma's intentions?


preventing suffering in others cannot be wrong.....taking life is always wrong


If I'm pointing a gun at someone's head threatening to kill them, and they say they forgive me, and I then forgive them for killing me in a past life (otherwise I wouldn't be doing this in the first place), do I get a freebie killing and a broken chain for the double forgiveness?

no freebie killing.....killing is wrong
--Outlaw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

karma is profound.....we can sometimes get an approximate idea why things happen..... but never all the fine details....because we cannot see the past actions which caused it

BadA1m
02-03-2008, 06:55 AM
By the way Raaaid, I am not sure what you meant in your first thread, but I'm quite sure that precognition is (to define it very simply) your brain responding to external stumulus without the intervention of the concious thought process.

I.E. a cop reaching for his sidearm before the bad guy comes around the corner, a driver slamming on his brakes before the guy at the stopsign pulls out in front of him.

The brain can process much more info, much faster than we can think about it, and it has the capability of short curcuiting that consious processs in order to save time that might be precious.

Outlaw---
02-04-2008, 11:45 AM
Note that I can't find the original message that fred quoted but it seems to be to his liking so...


Originally posted by fabianfred:
maybe the grenade will leave you uninjured!!...you may just be due a short life because you liked taking life in a previous lifetime...


You say "maybe" but I want to know the TRUTH. Will karma protect me? Is it even possible for me to be in that situation if I've done nothing wrong? How do I find out what I need to do to be granted forgiveness and break the chain?


Originally posted by fabianfred:
noble means doing the good thing


What's the definition of the "good thing"? How do I find out what is the "good thing" for any given situation?



Originally posted by fabianfred:
preventing suffering in others cannot be wrong.....taking life is always wrong


What if the only way I can prevent suffering of person A is to kill person B. What should I do?


Originally posted by fabianfred:
karma is profound.....we can sometimes get an approximate idea why things happen..... but never all the fine details....because we cannot see the past actions which caused it

That's a cop-out. It's exactly the same as the Christians say that we have no right to question God b/c we can't see the big picture.

--Outlaw.

BadA1m
02-04-2008, 03:07 PM
That's a cop-out. It's exactly the same as the Christians say that we have no right to question God b/c we can't see the big picture.

--Outlaw.

I'm sorry for your bad experiences Mate and I won't comment on Fred's interpretation of Bhuddism, but if any Christians told you that you can't question God, they have a shallow theology, the scriptures are full of people questioning God, and those who earnestly seek answers quite often get them.

I will tell you that you have no right to expect Fred to even be bothered with answering you, since so far you have only tried to bait him so that you can throw more insults at him.

Cut the man some slack, and don't waste his time with questions that you know damn right well you won't accept the answers for.

Outlaw---
02-04-2008, 04:11 PM
Originally posted by BadA1m:
I'm sorry for your bad experiences Mate and I won't comment on Fred's interpretation of Bhuddism, but if any Christians told you that you can't question God, they have a shallow theology, the scriptures are full of people questioning God, and those who earnestly seek answers quite often get them.

No bad experiences at my end. I won't guess at the extent of your personal road to salvation but it appears that it was a straight one. Not all are so lucky as there are MANY Christians who will tell you that we are not to question God. Like you, I am not one of those Christians and fully agree on the shallowness of their theology.


Originally posted by BadA1m:
I will tell you that you have no right to expect Fred to even be bothered with answering you, since so far you have only tried to bait him so that you can throw more insults at him.


I have never had any illusion that responses to posts were a right held by the OP. If he choses to respond great, if not, that's all right too. It is somewhat reasonable to call my questions "bait" but there was never any insult intended. My posts are in response to his feeling that belief in the fair and uniformly applied law of karma is more logical and easier to accept while belief in God is not.

I simply posed difficult situations (admittedly unlikely but not completely outside the realm of probability) where I see no possible logical or fair application of the law of karma as he described it (with a bit of grenade chucking humor).

Note that my intention here is comparison only between two belief systems (his and mine) that can only be "proven" at a personal level, not to exclaim the virtues of either or to denounce one inferior than the other. I will no more try and convert him to Christianity than he will try and force me down the path of enlightenment.


Originally posted by BadA1m:
Cut the man some slack, and don't waste his time with questions that you know damn right well you won't accept the answers for.

How can I not accept his answers? I am interested in how he believes the law of karma would apply to the situations I proposed, no more and no less.

Note that many have applied the term "cop-out" to my beliefs as well and the statement was not directed at FF personally. It was directed at the scripture. Often times I have no answer to difficult events other than, "everything happens for a reason". Lacking the ability to know the reason I simply trust in God. I would not attempt to pose that as a logical answer.

--Outlaw.

JV44
02-04-2008, 04:13 PM
The Leprechaun that lives at the bottom of my garden tells me to burn things! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif

MB_Avro_UK
02-04-2008, 05:10 PM
This thraaaid is getting interesting.

Where do animals stand with regard to this?

If a monkey dies does his 'soul' die? Or is he reincarnated or perhaps goes to monkey heaven?

Are we humans the only species that are 'special' and if so why? Are we perhaps an evolved version of a monkey through natural selection?

Has our intelligence created religion?

I think at this point I will revert to discussing parachutes and bombers...my brain hurts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

fabianfred
02-04-2008, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
This thraaaid is getting interesting.

Where do animals stand with regard to this?

If a monkey dies does his 'soul' die? Or is he reincarnated or perhaps goes to monkey heaven?

Are we humans the only species that are 'special' and if so why? Are we perhaps an evolved version of a monkey through natural selection?

Has our intelligence created religion?

I think at this point I will revert to discussing parachutes and bombers...my brain hurts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

As I mentioned.... the basic realms into which ALL beings are reborn are...heavens/Hells/ humans/animals/hungry ghosts.....
the Heavens are considered to be realms of pleasure with a very long lifetime and no suffering..
the hell and hungry ghost and animal realms are realms of suffering....some long lifetimes and some (animals) short
humans are in the middle...with both pleasure and suffering....but we are in the best position to do something about perfecting ourselves and escaping from the constant cycle of rebirth....rebirth according to wherever our karma takes us..
animaals do not have a seperate heaven...nor are they always reborn in the animal realm....there are also not seperate heavens or hells for people of different faiths....these religions are man made....nothing to do with the reality of nature..
we can be reborn in the animal realms...just as we can be reborn in the heavens or hells...
all beings have been living and dying in his constant cycle since beginningless time.....


about time we got bored with it and sought the only true freedom...the freedom from suffering....Nirvana....after which there is no more rebirth within this cycle.....not meaning that we are snuffed out and cease to exist though..

Heavy_Weather
02-04-2008, 05:55 PM
good stuff: http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=5234596096098670935&hl=en

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

fabianfred
02-04-2008, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Heavy_Weather:
good stuff: http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=5234596096098670935&hl=en

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

looks good....lol....but its just feeding peoples egos and pandering to their cravings..... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

buzzsaw1939
02-04-2008, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
This thraaaid is getting interesting.

Where do animals stand with regard to this?

If a monkey dies does his 'soul' die? Or is he reincarnated or perhaps goes to monkey heaven?

Are we humans the only species that are 'special' and if so why? Are we perhaps an evolved version of a monkey through natural selection?

Has our intelligence created religion?

I think at this point I will revert to discussing parachutes and bombers...my brain hurts http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif... I'm with you MB! I'm thinking the same with the UFO thread, lets start some more threads with humor, I like being happy, it feels better!

Just cause Budda said "life is pain" doesn't meen we have to push it! http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

fabianfred
02-04-2008, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by MB_Avro_UK:
Where do animals stand with regard to this?

If a monkey dies does his 'soul' die? Or is he reincarnated or perhaps goes to monkey heaven?

Are we humans the only species that are 'special' and if so why? Are we perhaps an evolved version of a monkey through natural selection?
Best Regards,
MB_Avro.

the christians and some others believe in an immortal soul.....but Buddhism teaches that there is no permanent 'I'.... but a 'subtle' connection exists between lives...linked by our karma...

imagine a row of candles...stretching to and from infinity....as one candle dies the next one in line is lit.....it is not the same candle or the same flame...but there is a subtle connection between them....without the previous flame this one could not exist....nor can the next without this present one....
the candles are of all shapes and sizes and colours...but they are all candles.....some live a long full life...whilst others are cut short suddenly....a draught may cause a flame to lean and then burn unevenly, disfiguring the candle and shortening its life......materials within the candle may cause it to splutter or burn more fiercely, also affecting its life span..

see any similarities to our lives..?

those living in the heavens with lives full of pleasure for millions of years...will still die evntually....and be reborn in the hell/animal/human realms...according to where their karma takes them
humans usually hope for rebirth in the heavens (seeking pleasure)
those in heavens seek human rebirth...because it is the best place to achieve enlightenment..

the wise seek nirvana...the only true freedom....freedom from suffering...

buzzsaw1939
02-04-2008, 09:50 PM
Originally posted by Heavy_Weather:
good stuff: http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=5234596096098670935&hl=en

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Absolutely!... this isn't anything new, and not a big secret! This is in all religions, even Buddhism, It's just not recognized for what it is, you bring into your life that which you dwell on / we create our own reality / think positive, it's so powerful that sometimes it seems like magic.

The only way it won't work, is if you mix feelings of worry or fear of failure, and the only way to control that is meditation.

btw meditation comes in many forms. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Ishmael932
02-05-2008, 12:26 AM
As someone who married into a family of psychics and witches 18 years ago, I do not have the luxury of disbelief. I came into it a scientific skeptic but have had too many experiences with them over the intervening years not to become a believer. There's nothing quite like having a toy car fly across the room at you with no visible motive force because your wife's dead best friend is being channeled through your wife while she talks to the friend's daughter to make you rethink your premises.

Another example, We lived in Pasadena a few years back and were having problems with our new landladys, a pair of Korean Valley Girls. After a particularly egregious day with one of them, my wife told me when I got home,

"Why is this woman giving me so much *****? I wish someone would give her some *****."

An hour later, our landlady's sewer line blew out and backed up filling the landlady's condo with two feet of raw sewage.

I can cite at least ten to 20 other instances involving my wife, her mother and her daughter(psychic power does seem to have a genetic base to it from my observation), but you can get the general idea.

Outlaw---
02-05-2008, 06:08 AM
Originally posted by fabianfred:
...it is not the same candle or the same flame...but there is a subtle connection between them....without the previous flame this one could not exist...

those in heavens seek human rebirth...because it is the best place to achieve enlightenment..


I fail to see how the above is rebirth of any kind. Maybe it's a translation error somewhere along the way or just an imperfect analogy but if it's not the same candle/flame, then how can it be considered a rebirth? If the previous candle in my chain was not me personally, then why is it logical/fair for me to suffer because of his bad karma? This looks like more of a parent/offspring relationship to me with absolutely no rearing period at all.


Originally posted by fabianfred:
humans usually hope for rebirth in the heavens (seeking pleasure)
those in heavens seek human rebirth...because it is the best place to achieve enlightenment..

the wise seek nirvana...the only true freedom....freedom from suffering...


With no permanent "I", then once you're dead you're dead. What difference does it make to me if the next candle in the chain is in the heavens or not?

If a human achieves enlightenment, is he/she taken to Nirvana and allowed to experience it or does their death simply ignite a different candle that's already in Nirvana?

Depending on the answer to the above question, it seems that the only candle in the chain that actually gains anything is the one that achieves enlightenment.

Unless I'm missing something, the candle analogy is not a journey, it's a relay, and only the last runner gets the medal while the others die during the race.

--Outlaw.

Outlaw---
02-05-2008, 08:09 AM
Originally posted by Ishmael932:
As someone who married into a family of psychics and witches 18 years ago, I do not have the luxury of disbelief. I came into it a scientific skeptic but have had too many experiences with them over the intervening years not to become a believer.

I can cite at least ten to 20 other instances involving my wife, her mother and her daughter(psychic power does seem to have a genetic base to it from my observation), but you can get the general idea.

I have done a tiny bit of research into the subject and firmly believe that there are some people who are able to communicate with those in the spirit realm. I am, however, too chicken to go any farther as my total lack of ability makes it difficult for me to trust the motives of those that reside there.

Ishmael, do you mind saying what religion, if any, are you/your wife/her family? Also, was there an explanation for having the car heaved in your direction?

--Outlaw.

Ishmael932
02-05-2008, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Outlaw---:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ishmael932:
As someone who married into a family of psychics and witches 18 years ago, I do not have the luxury of disbelief. I came into it a scientific skeptic but have had too many experiences with them over the intervening years not to become a believer.

I can cite at least ten to 20 other instances involving my wife, her mother and her daughter(psychic power does seem to have a genetic base to it from my observation), but you can get the general idea.

I have done a tiny bit of research into the subject and firmly believe that there are some people who are able to communicate with those in the spirit realm. I am, however, too chicken to go any farther as my total lack of ability makes it difficult for me to trust the motives of those that reside there.

Ishmael, do you mind saying what religion, if any, are you/your wife/her family? Also, was there an explanation for having the car heaved in your direction?

--Outlaw. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We were both raised Catholic but are probably closest to Mahayanna Buddhist these days.

The reason the car was thrown at me was my 16-year-old cocker spaniel was howling and I wasn't getting him out of the house fast enough for Jill(my wife's deceased best friend). Jill always had a temper.

I always used to joke that if those psychic hotlines were real, They would be calling YOU. But from my observations of my wife's process, they seem most similar to John Edward's process

BadA1m
02-05-2008, 01:32 PM
How can I not accept his answers? I am interested in how he believes the law of karma would apply to the situations I proposed, no more and no less.

Note that many have applied the term "cop-out" to my beliefs as well and the statement was not directed at FF personally. It was directed at the scripture. Often times I have no answer to difficult events other than, "everything happens for a reason". Lacking the ability to know the reason I simply trust in God. I would not attempt to pose that as a logical answer.

--Outlaw.

It's so easy to misconstrue intent in a print conversation that it sometimes takes a bit more effort to explain oneself to set the "tone" of a conversation (as can be seen with my misunderstanding of Friz' intent earlier), I suppose we just need to be more thick skinned if were going to engage in a conversation like this one. (by 'we' I mean mostly 'I')

Thanks for the "enlightenment" Outlaw. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pirschjaeger
02-05-2008, 01:47 PM
Ha ha ha,

Bad, believe it or not I read your reply but kinda steered clear of this thread. It was getting a little too mystical for my taste.

Just a minute ago I said to myself that I should PM you to let you know I'd seen your reply. I happen to see you were the last one to post in here. Opened it up and ......... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Now Fabian has a lot of explaining to do. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Fritz

BadA1m
02-05-2008, 01:52 PM
Yeah, big freakin' can of worms.

But one that must be opened at some point.

I just so hate worms. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Pirschjaeger
02-05-2008, 03:44 PM
A source has told me that worms are good once you get used to them. But I don't know if I can trust him.

He was fishy looking. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/shady.gif

Fritz

fabianfred
02-05-2008, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Outlaw---:
I fail to see how the above is rebirth of any kind. Maybe it's a translation error somewhere along the way or just an imperfect analogy but if it's not the same candle/flame, then how can it be considered a rebirth? If the previous candle in my chain was not me personally, then why is it logical/fair for me to suffer because of his bad karma? This looks like more of a parent/offspring relationship to me with absolutely no rearing period at all.


With no permanent "I", then once you're dead you're dead. What difference does it make to me if the next candle in the chain is in the heavens or not?
If a human achieves enlightenment, is he/she taken to Nirvana and allowed to experience it or does their death simply ignite a different candle that's already in Nirvana?

Depending on the answer to the above question, it seems that the only candle in the chain that actually gains anything is the one that achieves enlightenment.

Unless I'm missing something, the candle analogy is not a journey, it's a relay, and only the last runner gets the medal while the others die during the race.

--Outlaw.
The Candle analogy is the best one I have ...to try and explain the very complex and probably the hardest thing in buddhism to understand.....

Perhaps not a thing to be brought up amongst those new to the principle....just accept that we are not extinguished at death...and there is a continuation of our life-force from one life to the next...as I said earlier...our karma takes us from each life to the next and denotes the form it takes...

karma is a very deep and complex subject...too deep for ordinary people to get more than a basic understanding of.......only a Buddha can understand it completely......but then....a buddha can see the past lives of all beings...and know from what actions caused them to be born in this state or that..and how their behaviour then led them to their next birth etc.

the chain of candles.....we are the flame.....we are not exactly the same flame in each birth.....our bodies (candles) are different each life....but there is a connection and we experience each life and ...as a flame....each flutter and splutter............. so we suffer the pain caused in this life by a situation we brought about because of unskillful actions in a past life.........

Nirvana is not a place or a realm.......but a state of being which one attains.......it is like becoming one with all nature....or as I said earlier like a drop of water returning to the ocean...but remaining a seperate drop too...

there have been books in the past on subjects called 'the cosmic consciousness'...or something similar.......but I like to compare nirvana to this.....
a computer gets information from what we type into it..(the same as we get it from personal experience) ...and from information comprised of other peoples experience.....from CD's or DVD's for a computer (or from reading books, watching movies etc. for us)........but nirvana is like that computer being plugged into the internet......all information is available to us

GAU-8
02-05-2008, 05:47 PM
i have an ex girlfriend that i am very connected to today. conneected like i know how she is doing and feeling, and if she is in some kind of stress or crisis. though i rarely contact her anymore.

i had somehow learned to tell when it was her calling on th phone. even though months or years may have passed. teh phone will ring and i pick it up. and i say "hi heather". (this is WITHOUT any kind of caller ID, or any other gizmo.)

she is always surprised to how i guess it right. i just tell her "the the phone "rings" differently in my head. i hear the audible ring, but there is something that tells my brain "its you"

same thing when she comes into town. several times i call her up and tell her "you are in houston, and you are near "x " place right?"

"..........yes.."

it creeps me out, and her out, but i can sense when she is near, between a fleeting pass on the roads, or if she is on a certain side of town, or phone call. and i call her as soon as i get the feeling. interstingly enough..i have always been correct, and off no more than about a half mile or so.

MOH_MADMAN
02-06-2008, 10:53 AM
send me a check, and ill pre-tell it for you.