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XyZspineZyX
10-07-2002, 10:27 PM
In Raven Shield, Will there be a 3rd person view mode, because It sucks without, I don't want the game to be like The Sum Of All Fears. Do you agree?

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2002, 10:27 PM
In Raven Shield, Will there be a 3rd person view mode, because It sucks without, I don't want the game to be like The Sum Of All Fears. Do you agree?

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 12:00 AM
The genre that the R6/RS series of games belongs to is first person shooter. If you want 3rd person why not try another game instead.

I prefer just the 1st person view, makes you be a bit more careful in your movements.

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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 12:08 AM
3rd person veiw (fortunitly) will not be in RS3.

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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 12:10 AM
*starts collecting stones*

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 01:27 AM
i think 3rd person should be kept out of thes games.
its basicly a hack or something a noob would do


"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 03:14 AM
And the fact that 'everyone can use it' proves not that it isn't unfair, because some people don't like the idea of being able to see around corners illegitimately.

http://spider_bofus.tripod.com/danceouch.txt

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 04:33 AM
Go play some Splinter Cell if you want 3rd person view, for me, I want to be focused on killing people, not on myself. If that's too "gay" for you, don't play it.

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 09:18 AM
3rd person would be the perfect unrealistic feature in a realistic game

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 10:04 AM
Only time i use third person , is when i'm messing about with the replays in Rogue Spear.

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 10:30 AM
Third person view is and was abused by many players during actual gameplay of 1st person shooters, basically enabling someone of doing things you wouldn´t be capable of in real life, like scanning whats around a corner without exposing at least parts of your head, thus making the gameplay even more unrealistic and arcade-like.
In Flashpoint there is an server side option whether 3rd person view is available to clients or not, it´s extremely usefull if testing own maps, making screenshots or user made addons etc. Maybe it could be made a server side option in Raven Shield too, to suit every pupose and need for the arcade gamer and realism junkies alike.

http://a.focus.de/G/GE/UPLOAD/HBMWB0p6noa.jpg

"It´s important for us to explain to our country that life is important. It´s not only the life of babys, but the life of kids, who, you know, dwell inside the dark caves of the internet.
My attitude on life is, that i believe there is life."

George W. Bush

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 12:21 PM
Attn all you anti-3rd person players.... you are idiots! The dev team should implement a playable 3rd person for the gamers preference. You prefer to play first person, while other like myself prefer to toggle. More options and features make a game. It will attract the 3rd person shooters as well as the first person shooters. How many times do I have to drill that into your pee-on heads. There was NOTHING wrong w/ Rouge Spear. Now, you are ruining this game by not adding the 3rd person option. And cheating, well we all know that will go on w/ or w/out 3rd person view. Just add it already, as an OPTION. You guys are acting as if the game will be in 3rd person only. Add the option, it will increase sales. I'll buy then.

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 12:41 PM
Hehe chill out mate that's how some people are they wanna discuss(nag) about things /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Telling people their idiots won't make them change their opinions. So if U wanna make a point make it nicer /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

And by the way I really don't think that anybody will give a sut if u buy the game or not.


xboxisbetter wrote:
- Attn all you anti-3rd person players.... you are
- idiots! The dev team should implement a playable
- 3rd person for the gamers preference. You prefer to
- play first person, while other like myself prefer to
- toggle. More options and features make a game. It
- will attract the 3rd person shooters as well as the
- first person shooters. How many times do I have to
- drill that into your pee-on heads. There was
- NOTHING wrong w/ Rouge Spear. Now, you are ruining
- this game by not adding the 3rd person option. And
- cheating, well we all know that will go on w/ or
- w/out 3rd person view. Just add it already, as an
- OPTION. You guys are acting as if the game will be
- in 3rd person only. Add the option, it will
- increase sales. I'll buy then.
-
-



Bartez

"It's not a black & white world"

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 01:33 PM
Well all u cry-babies ranting your heads off at F1 well it jus shows that you cant take it and whine about it.

Oh and as 4 this scanning round corners thing and seeing round corners, you tell what THE HELL HBS DO.

This is exactly what u hate but no-one on here has bashed hbs for being in the game.

Goddam hbs users ur all noobs.
You cant hunt without em to save ur pathetic game life.

Well im happy about hbs on 1 thing.
they aint like the 1s in RS:ahahahahah noobs.

They are like binoculars and cannot be used with a small map.
Only thing u can go off is a circular symbol that goes off the rate of the heart.
Even then you wont know how far they are from you.

Goddam hbs noobies F1 was the only tool against u lot and they have taken it out.
Noooooooooooooooooooooobs

You may not care about 1 or 2 people not buying it but what happens if a reviewer takes this into their account, how many people will dislike it then?

Hbs=noobs= crap gameplay for those who have real skills

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 03:16 PM
- Oh and as 4 this scanning round corners thing and
- seeing round corners, you tell what THE HELL HBS DO.

Yeah right, that´s one of the things i didn´t like in R6/RS from the start, and therefore preferably played on servers with kit restrictions on. Many considered the HBS a cheat, a completely fictional "tool" that made any ambush useless, sorta like a short range wallhack in 2D. I´m glad UBI took another approach towards the "HBS" thing than RSE, now it´s much less accurate- you can tell whether someone is around, but hardly what he is doing (like direction he faces, no more pinpointing of exact location).
Third person can be basically used for the same purpose as the old RSE HBS, that is gathering a clear picture using unrealistic methods of where your opponent is located and what he is doing, without endangering yourself.

http://a.focus.de/G/GE/UPLOAD/HBMWB0p6noa.jpg

"It´s important for us to explain to our country that life is important. It´s not only the life of babys, but the life of kids, who, you know, dwell inside the dark caves of the internet.
My attitude on life is, that i believe there is life."

George W. Bush

Message Edited on 10/08/0202:22PM by Aries73

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 05:11 PM
As long as Restrictions can be made on servers I'm happy. I'll stick to the Servers with no 3rd/hb/etc.

I guess all those 'unrealistic' things will stay on as it will increase sales. In one of the RSH videos for CL U see how they demo everything using the 3rd person view ..., I think It looks kool and if they demo it means they will sell it ...

I hate Unrealistic Stuff 'hate TI/HBS/3rd/etc ...' but I do like playing with those things to see what it looks like and then go back to my First person View (I guess everybody likes to see how it looks like).

œnWT TestLªß <-- Click Here (http://www.unwanted.dsl.pipex.com/testlab/testlab.html)

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 05:13 PM
3rd person IMO should be left out the game... it WAS a cheat... it allowed players to peer round the corner and gain an unfair advantage on the other players, don't get me wrong, i did often use 3rd person myself to look round the corners, however im very glad they're leaving it out

As for the HBS being called a cheat... do you even know about the new HBS? first off, you can't tell exactly where the other players are now even when using the hbs, the minimap has been removed, so to use the HBS you have to place it on your face giving a 'rough' idea of where the opponent is, however by doing so it leaves you vulnerable because you're not holding a weapon...

And for all of you that are saying you won't buy the game if it's not implemented... lol what, you really think the DEV's are gonna place 3rd person for YOU? get real, for the problems it caused, your few sales are gonna be worth losing to finally rid the camping 3rd person era we saw in RS...


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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 05:23 PM
xboxisbetter wrote:
- Attn all you anti-3rd person players.... you are
- idiots! The dev team should implement a playable
- 3rd person for the gamers preference. You prefer to
- play first person, while other like myself prefer to
- toggle. More options and features make a game. It
- will attract the 3rd person shooters as well as the
- first person shooters. How many times do I have to
- drill that into your pee-on heads. There was
- NOTHING wrong w/ Rouge Spear. Now, you are ruining
- this game by not adding the 3rd person option. And
- cheating, well we all know that will go on w/ or
- w/out 3rd person view. Just add it already, as an
- OPTION. You guys are acting as if the game will be
- in 3rd person only. Add the option, it will
- increase sales. I'll buy then.
-
-

Really if 3rd person is the deciding factor for yourself, then I guess you won't be buying the game. Goodbye.

COLINMAN

"It takes a big man to admit he is wrong, I'm not a big man." Chevy Chase, Fletch Lives

"A fighter pilot is always on the offensive. If there is a MiG on his six, the MiG is in a very good defensive position, while the fighter pilot is in a very poor offensive position"

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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 06:50 PM
Do we want these idiotic 3rd person users playing the same game as us?

Seriously! I'm head-over-heels that they won't be buying it!

This really makes my day.

Think about it... Ubisoft removes (or doesn't add I should say) a unrealistic/abuseable/lame feature... idiots don't buy game...

Fun is had by all!

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 07:07 PM
i could get into the details about why third person shouldNT be in considering its ->sim<- oriented, and why i somewhat like the HBS and think its somewhat realistic because there are devices that arent classified which have somewhat similar capabilities, but what for? id rather make an imature statement like... every person on my server that complained about it always sucked at the game BWHAHAHA, you ppl got all your years experience from playing laracroft i bet hahaha!

thx for reading... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

----------------------------------------
Disclaimer: The author of this post does not claim responsibility for anything he/she has said or will say, may or may not agree with him/herself, may or may not be subject to error in judgment and should never be considered as fact or anything to set a standard by.

Message Edited on 10/08/0206:13PM by VRE

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 07:14 PM
Hmmm... so the F1 abusers are not going to buy/play RvS?
Nice!... keep the good news coming.




Message Edited on 10/08/0201:29PM by Guayo

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 07:19 PM
Haha, there are two types of gamers. One type are the hardcore gamers who likes games and disregards the system it's on. Meaning they can have favorite games spanning from a SNES to the PC to the GameCube, to the PS2. Then there's the "you-better-make-the-gameplay-simple-and-have-tons-of-eye-candy" type of gamers, which are mainly pure console gamers. Obviously "xboxisbetter" is one of them simply by his name, lmfao, much less the idiotic things he say. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 08:22 PM
The ppl that annoy me the most are the ones that reckon HBS is a cheat, yet using 3rd person is an aquired skill, and by 'owning' with 3rd person tactics they are truely 'l33t'... *cough* icedz *cough*


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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 08:25 PM
DeSetuede, you're such a lame loser, you should know by now that the 'l' and the 't' have also been replaced with numbers, it is '1337' not something LAME like 'l33t' geez man, GET WITH THE TIMES!! hehehehe

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 08:35 PM
sorry I'm not as cyber cool as i used to be /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ^^


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XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 08:51 PM
Sorry but your argument comparing HBS to F1 is a very poor one at best. HBS can always be countered. It's just that most people don't want to bring pucks, SA jammers or a mobile jammer. There's no way to counter F1. Some people would lump it in the same group as a glitch. Those are in the game as well as people don't need to use them. For single player I could care less if 3rd person was allowed, but the way it was so commonly abused in multiplayer it was rightfully removed.

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 08:59 PM
Not to mention if you burst into the room right when they are using the HBS they are so scarred.

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2002, 09:51 PM
lol I could imagine watching one of your buddies get shot while lookin at them with the new HBS... I wonder if the HBS bleeps will increase while the player is running and slow right down if they're incapacitated? that'd be a really kewl feature..


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XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 12:35 AM
yeah

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 03:59 AM
I think i kinda made a mistake. What view is the one where you could see your operative, so you could see corners for terrorist.

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 04:05 AM
hey xboxisbetter, I agree of what you said.
xboxisbetter wrote:
- Attn all you anti-3rd person players.... you are
- idiots! The dev team should implement a playable
- 3rd person for the gamers preference. You prefer to
- play first person, while other like myself prefer to
- toggle. More options and features make a game. It
- will attract the 3rd person shooters as well as the
- first person shooters. How many times do I have to
- drill that into your pee-on heads. There was
- NOTHING wrong w/ Rouge Spear. Now, you are ruining
- this game by not adding the 3rd person option. And
- cheating, well we all know that will go on w/ or
- w/out 3rd person view. Just add it already, as an
- OPTION. You guys are acting as if the game will be
- in 3rd person only. Add the option, it will
- increase sales. I'll buy then.
-
-

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 04:08 AM
Icedz, SHUT THE HELL UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 04:12 AM
I have an idea...

Lets allow players the "Option" of having 12 billion hitpoints in multiplayer.

That means that those who want to play the game realistically can die, while those who want to "Win win win" can use 12 billion life!

That caters to all the gamers out there! Options make a game better!

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 04:14 AM
You haters, just shut up, and let Ubi do what they want.

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 04:15 AM
Oh... by the way...

If you really want 3rd person camera, please don't buy the game.

I'm damn sure the developers do not want your money, at the cost of adding 3rd person camera.

You and the other players who "require" 3rd person, can play something else.

I speak for everyone whos looking forward to this game in saying: Please please please! Do not buy this game! Do not play it on-line! And most of all, do not flood the messageboard with your useless crap.

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 04:38 AM
Yes, we are 'haters' I guess that would make you 'playas' right? Eh hem, let me get into the lingo.

Yo g-killah, wuttup playah? we want dat pimpin 3rd person view yo. You feel me brotha? You feel me? Yah dawg, we straight yo, we tight, we homies yo, we undahstand each other yo. Powah to dah peoples!

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 06:09 AM
scstunner58_SMK wrote:
- You haters, just shut up, and let Ubi do what they
- want.
-
-

which is no 3rd person view

COLINMAN

"It takes a big man to admit he is wrong, I'm not a big man." Chevy Chase, Fletch Lives

"A fighter pilot is always on the offensive. If there is a MiG on his six, the MiG is in a very good defensive position, while the fighter pilot is in a very poor offensive position"

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XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 07:09 AM
There is no 3rd person in RvS. Using it to see around corners is an exploit akin to exploiting geometry hacks. And frankly, if some of the players most prone to such behavior refuse to play RvS because of it, then that is just one more check in the "pro 3rd-person removal" box.

Next issue: I'm tired of the insults. Rather than babysit and lock this thread, I'm just going to issue a warning -- the next inflamitory or insulting remark in this thread earns the poster a week off. Thanks guys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

UbiSoft/RSE Forum Moderator
ICQ [15950501]
pope@theheap.net

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 11:50 AM
Storm Guy must have had a learning disability or something. She obviously knows nothing about games. It's just a game, entertainment. Adding a third person will satisfy the shooters of all view modes. If it's there for single player, like Rouge Spear, you don't have to use it. It just adds to a different gameplay, and it's actually pretty cool to toggle to see your operative. And I'm sure that the Dev team cares about the sales, only b/c they stay employed. Storm Guy, you must work at an ice-cream retail store or something to say that they don't care about money.

<font color="#FF9900">EDIT by Pope: Hehe, and here I thought it would take at least five more replies for someone to cross the line. See you next week, Xbox.</font>

Message Edited on 10/09/0211:19AM by Pope

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 03:08 PM
1st person (normal view) = looking through the eyes of the player

3rd person = Out of body camera view, you can see the operative you're using, many people used it to peer round the corners and inturn 'cheat' the game...


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XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 03:14 PM
Pope wrote:
I'm tired of the insults.


xboxisbetter wrote:
- Storm Guy must have had a learning disability or
- something. She obviously knows nothing about games.


i would consider that as an insult.


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XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 03:23 PM
xboxisbetter wrote:
- Storm Guy must have had a learning disability or
- something. She obviously knows nothing about games.
- It's just a game, entertainment. Adding a third
- person will satisfy the shooters of all view modes.
- If it's there for single player, like Rouge Spear,
- you don't have to use it. It just adds to a
- different gameplay, and it's actually pretty cool to
- toggle to see your operative. And I'm sure that the
- Dev team cares about the sales, only b/c they stay
- employed. Storm Guy, you must work at an ice-cream
- retail store or something to say that they don't
- care about money.

I don't think Ubisoft cares about "Your" money, not money in general.

And yes, I know alot about games (how can oppinion equal knowledge here anyways?). I've actually be into mod developement, and have worked on several projects...

Anyways... The developers have said they arn't adding 3rd person camera, because its (and I quote) "kinda like cheating".

Not to mention... where did you dig up the "She" from? It's quite obvious (read my name again...) that I'm male.

And as far as you thinking that abuseable features will offer more sales, please show me an example. I would love to see an exploitable game, where people can do things the developers do "Not" want you to do, that has sold more then a game thats equally as good, but doesn't have as many exploitable features.

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 03:24 PM
lol, all you people who say that this 3rd person is "gay" and is for "n00bs" obviously werent ne good, cuz i dont know any respectable ladder where every body didnt use them. so if u guys enjoy being the bottom feeders of the gaming world, im cool with that. I enjoyed my time actually being good at the game and being top 10 in clan ladder for most of my time playing RS online.

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 03:30 PM
Arrtel wrote:
- lol, all you people who say that this 3rd person is
- "gay" and is for "n00bs" obviously werent ne good,
- cuz i dont know any respectable ladder where every
- body didnt use them. so if u guys enjoy being the
- bottom feeders of the gaming world, im cool with
- that. I enjoyed my time actually being good at the
- game and being top 10 in clan ladder for most of my
- time playing RS online.

And this has any relevance to our debate how? You were good at exploiting an unwanted (by the developers and many gamers) feature?

Thats like using ITH weapons in Diablo II... "Its in the game! You just cannot afford one!".

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 03:39 PM
It all boils down to one thing in the end... RVS will NOT have 3rd person view... All these people that are calling us n00bs for not using 3rd person, well I guess we won't have to worry about them plaguing RVS with their cheap tactics... in the end it works out best for us 'non f1'ers' so what's the point in fighting?

Don't think you're special because you were in a top 10 clan... Alot of ppl were, I was in a top 10 clan too, however I don't brag about it... I used f1 all the time because I was finding myself in a huge disadvantage against the other players that were corner camping... however I am very pleased that they've removed this feature from the game...

For most of us we'll be moving onto RVS, however let the other players that cant live without 3rd person stick with RS...


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Message Edited on 10/09/0203:41PM by DeSetuede

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 03:50 PM
First of all Elite_N00b, This is not/or like a hack. 2nd, if your one of those "noobs" that dont use Thrid Person View I have 2 words for you,HUGE NOOB. If anyone has not already mastered or taken advantage of third person view by now, that is the reason of your deaths more then others. Third person view is not something a "noob" would use,... It's a feature that the most l33t people have mastered... -xLiquidice

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 03:54 PM
xLiquidice wrote:
- First of all Elite_N00b, This is not/or like a hack.
- 2nd, if your one of those "noobs" that dont use
- Thrid Person View I have 2 words for you,HUGE NOOB.
- If anyone has not already mastered or taken
- advantage of third person view by now, that is the
- reason of your deaths more then others. Third person
- view is not something a "noob" would use,... It's a
- feature that the most l33t people have mastered...
- -xLiquidice

Too bad all you F1ers are going to be (and I quote, even though it pains me to do so) "HUGE NOOB"s. Sad isn't it?

All that time perfecting your "magically see around corners" tactics, and all shot to crap because the developers decided not to implement it this time around...

I feel for you guys... Guess you won't be buying the game (how terribly sad!).

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 04:28 PM
Stormguy why do you have to be such an *** to them? I was looking forward to all the so called 1337 f1'ers cramping the servers of RVS /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 04:53 PM
Who said anything about using Thrid Person mode through out the game? my god storm. Whats wrong? Getting your hopes up about this no Thrid person thing? Think you are finally going to be someone in the RS games? Think your going to be able to now beat those so called "Noob F1'ers? Guess again my man, F1 is not the only tactic we use. If you would think about the gameplay that goes on throughout the rounds you would have not posted that. It looks to me as if you bought Rogue Spear yesterday...Just because there is no "f1" dose not mean we will be noobs. There is also another great tactic called "peaking". Haha, did you forget about that or, are you one of those people that run around not knowning where the other teams insert is going to places in maps that are no where near the action? Also, just because rs3 will not have Third Person, That dose not lead to no gameplay to me as far as I go... Trust me man, I am looking forward to owning noobs just like your self in rs3.

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 05:25 PM
xLiquidice wrote:
- Who said anything about using Thrid Person mode
- through out the game? my god storm. Whats wrong?
- Getting your hopes up about this no Thrid person
- thing? Think you are finally going to be someone in
- the RS games? Think your going to be able to now
- beat those so called "Noob F1'ers? Guess again my
- man, F1 is not the only tactic we use. If you would
- think about the gameplay that goes on throughout the
- rounds you would have not posted that. It looks to
- me as if you bought Rogue Spear yesterday...Just
- because there is no "f1" dose not mean we will be
- noobs. There is also another great tactic called
- "peaking". Haha, did you forget about that or, are
- you one of those people that run around not knowning
- where the other teams insert is going to places in
- maps that are no where near the action? Also, just
- because rs3 will not have Third Person, That dose
- not lead to no gameplay to me as far as I go...
- Trust me man, I am looking forward to owning noobs
- just like your self in rs3.

My hopes arn't "getting up", they are there. The developers have already said there won't be 3rd person...

And I have been someone in RS games... I used to be considerd one of the better Rainbow Six (the first one) players on the Zone... I don't claim to be good anymore, but I had my moments.

And I never said I couldn't beat people using F1... please, find a quote of me saying so, and then you'll have an arguement.

Also... why use peeking when you can just hit F1, see around the corner, without exposing yourself to fire? Peeking is quite different from F1. And yes... I know where insersion points are, I know where choke points are, and I know how to flank different positions etc... I never said I couldn't play the game well.

And as far as calling me a "noob" how the bloody hell would you know? Have you ever played against me?

Seriously dude... you assume alot.


The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 05:55 PM
*depants both Storm and Ice*

KornKob
Forum Program Manager
The Wargamer
Pie's Tactics

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." Theodore Roosevelt

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 07:18 PM
xLiquidice wrote:
- First of all Elite_N00b, This is not/or like a hack.
- 2nd, if your one of those "noobs" that dont use
- Thrid Person View I have 2 words for you,HUGE NOOB.
- If anyone has not already mastered or taken
- advantage of third person view by now, that is the
- reason of your deaths more then others. Third person
- view is not something a "noob" would use,... It's a
- feature that the most l33t people have mastered...
- -xLiquidice
-
-

Is it me or do I get the impression of that someone is a "n00b" or at least just mediocre everytime I see them use the terms "n00b" or "l33t" as their primary term for referring to themselves and other players?

In my experience, the best players spoke not with words, but with action. And back when I was actually actively playing, there wasn't much "l33t-sp33k" going around. The leet speek makes them look a bit like the "n00bs" they make fun of so much. I keep asking myself where these guys crawled out from. Probably CS or some such.

I saw plenty of Korean gogogo though.


-Al

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Message Edited on 10/09/0211:30AM by Sundown

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 07:26 PM
GOOD TIMES!!

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 07:27 PM
never thought i would say this......but i hope someone makes a 3rd person cheat...lol

http://otb.clanpages.com/shaftclean.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 08:38 PM
Ok first of all ive been playing rogue spear for a long long time and i gotta say that if you use f1( mines is actually far left mouse but you know what i mean), you can whoop anybody thats not using it so in that sense it seems unfair. I use f1 so much to the point that i play entirely in it and only go into 1st person in zoom, which is rare. But to me f1 was what made the game unique. It gave an added tactic to use to identify enemy locations etc. So all you noobies not using it LEARN. Its a tool thats given to you. But for all of you claiming, "boo hoo its not real" shuttup. You know what i think, 90 degree of view isnt real. Oh yeah thats right. . where the F is my periferal vision. But in 3rd you get a good 170-190 degree view. Well that makes alot more sense if you think about it. But hey i dont care that theres no 3rd in raven shield cause my *** will happily enjoying my triple monitor supported game. Do you consider that cheating?

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 09:13 PM
well the thing i dont like about it is, that its like wall hacking sort of. And ppl say the game is sopsed to be realistic(my slef included) i really dont think u can go to birds eye view or a ghost that follows u view thing.

"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 09:20 PM
- But in 3rd you
- get a good 170-190 degree view. Well that makes alot
- more sense if you think about it.

Except for the part where you see from a camera mounted 12 feet high, that allows you to see around corners without exposing yourself. Not sure how that's more real.

Well in Raven Shield, there won't be 3rd person. "So all you noobies using it LEARN" to deal without it.

- But to me
- f1 was what made the game unique. It gave an added
- tactic to use to identify enemy locations etc.

Flat out, there's no realism justification for F1. I wouldn't say being able to see around corners without exposing oneself is really good gameplay either. I guess others feel otherwise... it's pretty much a cheap exploit and trick, and something the developers have said repeatedly that isn't how they meant or want it to be used. Those who say it isn't are basically the ones using it and trying to justify it in some way.

Of course they find it "fun" because it helps them get more kills. Then they claim that those not using it are "noobs", when in fact, the many of the best players are deadly effective without it, and are good enough to forgo using it. Using cheap tricks doesn't make you "elite". Not having to and still kicking butt does.


Anyone who supports it simply wants to continue using it for the advantage of seeing around corners while not exposing himself... and are used to it, dependent on it, or addicted to it.



-Al


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Message Edited on 10/09/0201:34PM by Sundown

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 09:22 PM
yup u gto that right. Just deal wiht it ppl it aint gonna be there in RvS so pick another thing to argue about /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 10:22 PM
Your right about one thing. . peeking around corners without exposing yourself does seem cheap. Hey actually it is cheap, ill give it to you, but im just saying that dont give me that its not "real" because lack of periferal vision isnt "real" either. I mean it is a game and it has its limitations, i just think f1 does a good job for making up for it. Say for example i really have to get to one spot ahead of me, but at the same time i gotta check something on my left to make sure i dont get hit. with taht cone view i have i can only strafe slowing me down, not real. I just see 3rd person as a "situational awareness" tool. And its not in raven shield and thats ok because i think the game will still be good but i still believe that the whole f1 concept in rogue spear added a new element to the game what wasnt in any others. Name another game where f1 can be used and if so used to such great extent and advantage as rs.

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2002, 11:53 PM
grinomyte wrote:
- Your right about one thing. . peeking around corners
- without exposing yourself does seem cheap. Hey
- actually it is cheap, ill give it to you, but im
- just saying that dont give me that its not "real"
- because lack of periferal vision isnt "real" either.
- I mean it is a game and it has its limitations, i
- just think f1 does a good job for making up for it.

F1 does way more than compensating for lack of peripheral vision. It lets you do totally unbalancing things with no risk to yourself... that you couldn't do in real life. It's so effective that even you claim you stay almost entirely in 3rd person.


- Say for example i really have to get to one spot
- ahead of me, but at the same time i gotta check
- something on my left to make sure i dont get hit.
- with taht cone view i have i can only strafe slowing
- me down, not real.


If you only used that to check to your left, sides, etc. where you're still exposed... I can't really fault you. But that's not how it's used in the majority of the time. And that's not what people are complaining about when they take issue with F1-ers. They're talking about F1 corner viewing.


- And its not in raven
- shield and thats ok because i think the game will
- still be good but i still believe that the whole f1
- concept in rogue spear added a new element to the
- game what wasnt in any others. Name another game
- where f1 can be used and if so used to such great
- extent and advantage as rs.

Few, because it's generally not beneficial or desired by game designers as part of gameplay. Something that gives you an advantage-- especially when it wasn't intended to do so-- isn't necessarily a good feature... even if you're good at exploiting it and kicking butt with it. In fact, if it works extremely well, it's more likely that it's not.

I think some people need to start realizing that.


-Al


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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 12:13 AM
I miss R6, where you could flank any stupid sucker F1ing around a corner with plenty of time to spare. In RS, someone with a better head on their shoulders could normally gun down an F1er, but not always.

UbiSoft/RSE Forum Moderator
ICQ [15950501]
pope@theheap.net

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 12:33 AM
xboxisbetter wrote:
And cheating, well we all know that will go on w/ or
- w/out 3rd person view.

so basicly what your saying is, since people are gonna cheat anyways they might aswell implement it so you can give your lame excuses along with the rest of your third person friends that you like to look at your guy instead of admiting you cant shoot for squat and NEED the third person view to see attacks coming at the same time making it easier for cheaters..

Message Edited on 10/09/0211:49PM by VRE

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 02:06 AM
can we drop this subject alrdy???? aguring about iron sights seems more interesting than this. if u need to run arcoos a street, or a entering a hallway with two ts on each side and worries bout getting killed cuz u dont know whic one is looking at u... toss a fb thats y they put them in i use fbs more than any of my zone friends on the ms gaming zone

"Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 02:30 AM
Honestly I think it MAY show what kind of gamers the 3rd person defenders are (NOT ALL but its sometimes ok to generalize but not stereotype). We where talking about 3rd person view yet xboxisbetter wrote his name that way.. WHY? I think its because there is a division between kinds of gamers, (I might sound like a anal observer but please read) is it just a coincidence that his name is like that AND hes defending 3rd person view? two types of gamers? I think there is. Im not speaking of console gamers or just gamers who dont like to think much but I have known some which dont play on computers because its "too much of a hassle" or "too complicated" (specificly from a cousin whos a major console gamer and has about every console there is), meaning they are either refering to too many options in gameplay OR the problems involved with computers like drivers and settings ect which makes it more difficult to use thus their unwillinglness to deal with the problem and fix it THEN have lots of fun

Again, Im not refering to console gamers specificly but as sort of a reference to simplicity consoles have or the the kind of gamer who just wants to have fun without complications. I play on a console every once and a while and have owned consoles myself and enjoyed them. Its specificly for those kinds of gamers, the kind who cant take losing, the kind who camp with third person view, the kind who whine if you have any advantage like simply having a better weapon and call you a noob because you use the better one, the kind who say you cheat when you beat them successively, the kind who cheat.

Maybe I just screwed up and put all the pieces in the wrong place, but to make it more simple in understanding my point of view read below.


In summary this is how I connected everything...

3rd person view->being defended by xboxisbetter(name)->to consoles being much more simple and easier->onto easier and simpler meaning cant deal with as much->onto using 3rd person to have advantage making it easier->ending in giving reasons such as cheating will happen anyways

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 03:44 AM
It's funny when someone's reply to our accusations that 3rd person view is a form of cheating is simply "everyone in a ladder was using it." Well, so you're somehow suggesting that the majority of the players are "1337" and because the mass majority in a certain place uses it, it is somehow the more skilled way to go? Haha, that's entertaining.

The fact is, the feature WAS available in Rogue Spear, and it made seeing people coming a lot easier than switching to hbs. So obviously the people who wants an easy free way of seeing people without breaking cover was to use a feature that was actively available.

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 03:51 AM
Demon_Mustang wrote:
- It's funny when someone's reply to our accusations
- that 3rd person view is a form of cheating is simply
- "everyone in a ladder was using it." Well, so you're
- somehow suggesting that the majority of the players
- are "1337" and because the mass majority in a
- certain place uses it, it is somehow the more
- skilled way to go? Haha, that's entertaining.
-
- The fact is, the feature WAS available in Rogue
- Spear, and it made seeing people coming a lot easier
- than switching to hbs. So obviously the people who
- wants an easy free way of seeing people without
- breaking cover was to use a feature that was
- actively available.

Not to mention that Heartbeat can be counterd with jammers. I don't recall the developers putting in an F1 jammer :-)

I recall the good old days of hiding at the perfect spot, where your enemy would have to walk beyond you to see you. Then you use a jammer, and wait :-P

It would really piss people off, and I got called all kinds of names for it, but the host was on my team and doing it too :-)

Although... They could have seen us by using F1.

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 03:13 PM
I assume to much storm? haha, You should consider re-reading what you typed about me... You told me how I am not going to be getting the game because of no Thrid Person. You also "assumed" that I was and did alot of other stuff also. Please re-read your imput to my post before saying I "assume" to much and Sundown, i quote "In my experience, the best players spoke not with
- words, but with action" But if you dont mind me asking, how the hell am I to speak with action on a forum... A forum is put in place to talk about gameplay and such. That did not make any sense.

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 03:40 PM
xLiquidice wrote:
- I assume to much storm? haha, You should consider
- re-reading what you typed about me... You told me
- how I am not going to be getting the game because of
- no Thrid Person. You also "assumed" that I was and
- did alot of other stuff also. Please re-read your
- imput to my post before saying I "assume" to much
- and Sundown, i quote "In my experience, the best
- players spoke not with
-- words, but with action" But if you dont mind me asking, how the hell am I to speak with action on a forum... A forum is put in place to talk about gameplay and such. That did not make any sense.



Actually it made perfect sense... he was implying that all these people that are saying I'm "l337" and so on are the ones that only type this sort of crap in the forums and they never prove themselves in the games....

You said that anyone that didn't use f1 was a n00b?, yes, maybe a n00b cheater, we cant all be as experienced at cheating as you can ice.... Back in the day I would of called myself an experienced player... and playing with good clans I often came across hosts that would say if you f1 I boot you... these were good players, and towards the end of playing RS it got to a stage where it was nothing but f1 camping, this got really tiredsome and many people left the game, including myself...

You also mentioned that everyone in ladder uses f1, so it has to be an elite tool.... what kind of Bs is that? well over half the laddering community using CL cheat anyway and quite a few more using XGN... f1 is clearly a mistake that the DEV's of RVS are fixing this time round, they admitted it was 'like cheating', they realised the problem and took it out of RVS... you can take claim to the fact that you're elite all you want using f1, but when it comes to RVS, I for one am gonna be glad to see the end of people like you taking up valuable space in the servers that could of been used for 'real' players.

Don't get me wrong, I did often switch between f1 and normal view, I even dedicated a button on my mouse to it... but im not gonna sit here and debate the fact that it wasn't cheating.. I know it was cheating, as someone said earlier, you cant compare f1 to HBS, because HBS had jammers to prevent that, there wasn't anyway way preventing someone from using f1 and gaining an unfair advantage over you... I've said this before and I'll say it again, I for one (and i know im not alone here) used f1 in RS, but im still very glad they've removed it from RVS, if you cant live without your f1 eliteness then i suggest you go find another game to play...


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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 05:51 PM
Right On!!

I think they should have 3rd person view. Everyone starts
out as a Noobie, some noobies are better then others, but for freedome's sake why cant there be an option like in Black thorn which allows the host to click 3rd person view on or off as he wishes.

Now you say well i am an Elite player and these noobies are not playing fair. They watch me comming and blam i am dead.
Well duh!! I thought you are Elite you should expect anything. In real life although they dont have the option of 3rd per. the enemy can play unfair. Same goes for the campers I am sure if your enemy is scared to run out and get shot they would lay low and wait for you to pass by and blast you.

As a smart Elite player you should not rush into any situation untill you are sure its clear. if you are in a hurry to kill you might get killed .

If the hosts desides to play with Elite players only and no 3rd per. then he pushes the little button that turns it off and puff all the Noobies are going somewhere else to play or stay and become Targets and that is a good way to learn.

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 05:55 PM
Just a quick fact that came into mind

Police swat teams do have 3rd person view in the form of a movable mirror to peek around corners.

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 06:02 PM
Hornet57 wrote:
- Just a quick fact that came into mind
-
- Police swat teams do have 3rd person view in the
- form of a movable mirror to peek around corners.

That exposes part of their body, they're not privy to ability to suddenly see a camera view above giving them the chance to peer round a corner undetected...

Yes, we all start out as n00bies.... however you cant justifiy the fact that if i was running down a corridor and you were at the other end on the corner squating in 3rd person, then you strafe me... it's totally unfair, you have full view of me and know exactly where I am, whereas I on the other hand don't have a clue where you are.. how is that fair?

3rd person was greatly exploited in the other games... You'll learn to play without it as we all will... get used to it...


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Message Edited on 10/10/0206:08PM by DeSetuede

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 06:06 PM
interesting that he mentions mirrors because they never mention it in rogue spear handbook but they do come in handy. But you guys are still missing my point to some degree. point is, it is a game, and because its a game your hindered in senses. In real life i COULD crouch behind a wall completely blind to where you are and pretty much hear where your at. Go ahead and try it. You can get a general sense of where someone is at. But its a game and of course they cant mimic that. But i think that 3rd person makes up for a lot of shortcomings in terms of what you can and cannot sense about your enviroment. If i recall right the RS manual says its used as a situational awareness tool. And thats exactly what it is. But in any case i understand peoples problem with it. If its too hard for you to learn it and other people have then it seems unfair. But i gotta say, i practiced and practiced and practiced to gain effenciency in f1 and thats why im good at the game. Its a tool given to me and ill sure as hell use it. So please don't flame people as "NOOBS" etc until you can run at full speed and crack off head shots in 3rd person from a couple hundred yards with a 9mm pistol ok? yeah i can do that hee hee!

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 06:51 PM
Yes you would be able to hear them and yes you would be able to 'sense' whereabouts they were judging by the sound, however you can't tell me that's the same as having full view of them...

yes i was able to kill many people while i was using f1, however I was actually calling the person who said you ARE a n00b unless you use f1 a moron.. not the other way round, I suggest you re-read the post...


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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 06:54 PM
Mirror is like a third person view?!, that really made me chuckle, how is looking through a tiny mirror and concentrating really hard seeing only a very SMALL part of the environment at a time anything close to 3rd person view where you can see EVERY damn thing?.

Grynomyte, I dont see how your senses are hindered, to be more specific the game Im sure makes up for it because you can always expect the same kind of noise, for example having the same loudness or footstep for every player vs in real life it would differ and some people could reload faster and quieter (obviously ppl can also be louder but the game doesnt let you be any quieter), I see it only as a balance, besides you dont make up hearing and such by letting you see things you wouldnt normaly see and the games SIM oriented so that would defenetly NOT include 3rd person, you should then be asking for a mirror, Im sure you can hear your enemies when they reload or run/jog/fastwalk when your descently close.

Btw, what skill is involved when you simply camp and look around the corner without exposing yourself?? what practice do you need other than being dumb and running around the corner after you used 3rd person view and seeing someone?? practice for WHAT?!


What really annoys me is people like you, if Grynomyte where to play against someone like himself like a Grynomyte clone or xboxisbetter, they'd end up in a stand still where no one exposes themselves and the game runs out of time, you people obviously are too stubborn to realize you cant play against someone like yourself, you only pray on people who dont use it, and if you kill someone like yourself thats because not only they suck and they have to use 3rd person but they dont use a "cheat" properly which is pretty funny.

Message Edited on 10/10/0206:09PM by VRE

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 07:08 PM
hehe i used to hate ppl like that... campin out, getting lucky shots cos you're not prepared and they're fully aware of where you are... then you get " oh yea baby im elite and your not you n00b!! " " i frickin ROCK! " " I can own anybody at this game "... pfft...


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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 07:09 PM
Yah, exactly, you barely have a view around the corner with the mirror, they are taught to scan as thoroughly as possible, but it is very possible for them to miss a spot using that mirror. Also, using the mirror, you're not the only one that can see it, the person around the corner just might notice the little mirror sticking out scanning the area. Also, while using the mirror, if someone appears all of a sudden around the corner, it'll take the operative a couple crutial milliseconds to drop it and ready the weapon in which most likely would get shot and probably killed, while using 3rd person view, basically you're completely on the ready to fire all the time.

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 07:11 PM
wasnt specifically talking about you DeSetuede sorry for the misunderstanding. But yeah you cant have a full view thats correct but you cant hear the lil cruching noises and locate them by ear. So i dont know it just seems like a good trade off. I liked 3rd person, i mean i can play any game where i just walk and shoot people. but i play rs because theres a different aspect of the game. Otherwise id be a ghost recon nut.

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 07:27 PM
ok obviously you didnt read all the posts i wrote so i guess ill elaborate for you. Rs is a game, Raven shield is a game, and since its a game its not real. In real life you can sense so much and see so much. But in the game your limited to your 90 degree view and at best 5 speakers. So really, your situational awareness is S---. But in real life situational awareness is EVERYTHING. But you cant do it because were not that advanced, its just not possible. So i think that f1 was a great tool to sort of overcome that.

Also i dont know how you play or how you percieve other people playing in f1 but its not all just camping and waiting, in fact, its very little of that in the games i play. I rarely camp. Everyone that ive played with for the past 2 or 3 years use f1 and its a tactic to us. You use f1 to your advantage to gain info. You still gotta shoot (which is much harder in f1) and you still gotta think. But if everyones knows how to effectively use f1, you just gotta think alot more. Too hard for you? Maybe thats why i win more lol.

But seriuosly yeah it takes practice. You have to consider quite a few more possibilities when you put f1 into effct.. You have to think about where others can f1 and you have to think what your f1 exposes you to and doesnt expose you to. You have to more effectively use the map against your opponenets. Oh yeah if theres some jerk camping in one room f1in the door for 3 mins yeah screw him. I dont see the fun in that either. But i play with good friends only and fact is, we never camp for more then 10 seconds or so and f1 brings out much more enjoyment to the game for all of us. And all of us includes a good 20 people or so.

But you know its ok cause when raven shield releases ill be using my packed away matrox parapehlia (doesnt work well for gta3) and have mad periperal vision on you lol. Grinomyte = situational awareness ***** lmao

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 07:36 PM
xLiquidice wrote:
- I assume to much storm? haha, You should consider
- re-reading what you typed about me... You told me
- how I am not going to be getting the game because of
- no Thrid Person. You also "assumed" that I was and
- did alot of other stuff also. Please re-read your
- imput to my post before saying I "assume" to much
- and Sundown, i quote "In my experience, the best
- players spoke not with
- words, but with action" But if you dont mind me asking,
- how the hell am I to speak with action on a forum... A
- forum is put in place to talk about gameplay and such.
- That did not make any sense.

And yet you assume my post was aimed at you? I was talking to anyone who said they wouldn't be buying the game because 3rd person wasn't in there (read some of the other posts, they say stuff like that). You "ASSume" I was talking to you directly.

If you are planning on getting the game, then so be it. If you arn't, good show. I could care less (unless you decide to play the the servers I'm in).

And in reguard to it being just a "game". It is exactly that. Its a game being devloped by people making "Their Game". They arn't making a 3rd person shooting, they are making the tactical game "They" want to make. If that means "They" don't want 3rd person, then "You" will not get it. Argueing that because its a game you should have a feature the developers do not want, then your just talking out your ***.

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 07:37 PM
Hell no, situation awareness is not "crap" (I know you meant another word). I'm not accusing you of being a "n00b" or anything, but after a while of playing, I don't even need 5 speakers. I play with normal headphones, and I can always determine where a sound is coming from. Think about it. All sounds, no matter from which direction, goes through the same canal. So how exactly do we determine where a sound is coming from? It's all interpreted by your brain using many factors including the sharpness and the timing. This can all be simulated, and there are software and hardware that simulate this. 3D sound like EAX helps also, but my speakers have a feature that tries to differentiate sounds that are supposed to come from different directions, all through two speakers. I plug my headphones into the speakers, so I get the same effect. And RARELY do I hear footsteps or gunshots or any other noise and not know where it came from. However, you're probably going to argue that not everyone has these stupid gadgets I speak of, and you don't need them, they're not that complex, it just differentiates the sounds a little more than already done by the game itself, so on normal speakers and headphones, you can very well tell where something is coming from, you just have to get used to it.

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 07:39 PM
I hate to use this as an example, but...

Counter-Strike is a perfectly fine (and extremely popular) semi-realistic shooter, and it doesn't have 3rd person camera. Arguing that Raven Shield will draw a larger crowd (then Counter-Strike atleast) without 3rd person just doesn't match up.

The previous Rainbow Six games did well as far a sales, but I can guarantee you that 3rd person was not a major selling point. Especially since most people played the game singleplayer (and people usually only abuse stuff like that in MP).

I say... if Counter-Strike can do it, then Raven Shield sure as hell can.

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 07:41 PM
Please, re-read you text for the third time. Your post had mine text above it therefore aiming at me...

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 07:46 PM
xLiquidice wrote:
- Please, re-read you text for the third time. Your
- post had mine text above it therefore aiming at
- me...

I'll quote myself here....

"I feel for you guys... Guess you won't be buying the game (how terribly sad!)."

Lets see I'll pick out a word like... "Guys". Do you see my comment directed at you specifically?

I was replying to some of the things/concepts you had, but I was also replying to 3rd person users in general.

You can interpret what I say any way you want, but don't go telling me I don't know in what context I was writing.

Not to mention that I said "Guess". I never said "You won't be buying the game, period".

Assuming again now are we...

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 07:47 PM
Yeah your right i didnt mean crap. They caugt me lol. Oh yeah i get you there. I mean sound is really important and i can use it to determine quite a bit and eax and audigy does a great job of it. and based on what ive been seeing of the sound emulator on the unreal 2003 engine i think it will even be better. BUT . . . its not like being there. I mean really its not even close. Like in RS if someone right behind you directly you cant tell. You wont even notice unless you turn around. Doesnt happen in real life. Thats what im talking about. But im argueing two points that made f1 good. One is the conpensation one, and the other is the tactic one. Yes i think its consensation for an imperfect game, i mean its close but you can't make real. Your still in a chair in a room with the lights off at 2 am beacuse you got nothing better to do JK lol. And the other is that it makes the game stand out from the rest. Otherwise pickup your sierra exploited version of counterstrike and have a blast. Btw, i appreciate Demon Mustang writing in respectful manner. It makes him sound more like his opinion counts for something. For most of you call me stupid and get on with it but for the rest i think this is a good thread so keep up the good posts.

"thats right i saw the terrance and philip movie who wants to touch me? .. . I SAID WHO WANTS TO F***ING TOUCH ME!?!?!??"

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 07:50 PM
- BUT . . . its not like being there.
- I mean really its not even close.

The joy and purpose of videogames. You don't really have to be a in life-threatening environment. Insted, you can create a semi-realistic game that does it for you.

That way you can get any form of enjoyment/hype you would get out of the real thing (alittle different I know), without all those pesky bullet wounds.

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 07:52 PM
Oh and btw from what i understand you determine 3d pinpointing of locations based on volume and timing differences that both of your ears hear. So if something is louder in your left ear than your right you can determine distance based on a reference sound and based on the timing that it takes to hit left and right you determine rough angular perception. Pretty amazing huh? Hey for all you realism nuts out there you know what i think would be really cool. If the only thing that was in focus was what your ret was pointed at and the rest would be out of focus just like in real life. I think i might be onto something here.

"thats right i saw the terrance and philip movie who wants to touch me? .. . I SAID WHO WANTS TO F***ING TOUCH ME!?!?!??"

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 07:56 PM
While focus is possible, you wouldn't have complete control over it (like you do in real life), so it would be more of a hinderance then even being that realistic.

The human brain controlls tons of functions at one time. When you try to simulate that on a computer, and then give someone only two hands with which to manipulate it, you run into alot or problems.

In theory, it could be done. But, I doubt it would help the game in any way other then making it more difficult to play, and I doubt it could be implemented that realistically and still be functional.

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 08:00 PM
i know man. . i was kinda kidding.. just poking fun at all the realism nuts out there. But hey, still not a bad idea in practice.. i mean anything you point your ret at is in focus and everything else blurs properly.. and not even much just a lil bit.. would be kinda interesting to see in practice just to see if it has and good visual effect.

"thats right i saw the terrance and philip movie who wants to touch me? .. . I SAID WHO WANTS TO F***ING TOUCH ME!?!?!??"

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 08:01 PM
It would possibly work well with an Iron Sights aiming system. You would only blur your vision when you hit the zoom/aim button (flashpoint blurs the weapon, but it should actually blur the background etc...).

But as far as your usual movement around, you really don't focus much with both eyes open.

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 08:09 PM
Well grinomyte, there might be some times when someone can sneak up on you where in real-life you would have heard them coming, but the fact is, if noone has 3rd person view, you can sneak up on them just as easy as they can sneak up on you, so it's fair. It's not fair with 3rd person view, because not everyone will be using it, if there are two views, 1st and 3rd, some will be using one while the others will be using the other, and the ones using 3rd person will have a slight vantage-point advantage over those who are using 1st. That's why it should be limited to only one view, whether it be 1st person only or 3rd person only, and I'm glad it isn't 3rd person only, because most of those games suck.

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 08:22 PM
Hmmmm .. point but. i mean its not about the sneaking up thing because i mean even if someones behind you and your in 3rd you still cant see it. I just mean to say it conpensates for some fallbacks due to it being a game. But if everyone has the option to use both 3rd and 1st i see it as everyone has the tools just some people have the patience to learn it. i mean a noob with f1 is still a noob and still easy to beat if your good. I think a good solution just to give the server the option. Or actually what i would personally like is that if you go into f1 you have to stay there. I mean it would be to my advantage just cause i shoot well in f1 now. But in any case there isnt gonna be f1 so ill just have to do without. You guys think me having 3 monitors is cheating?

"thats right i saw the terrance and philip movie who wants to touch me? .. . I SAID WHO WANTS TO F***ING TOUCH ME!?!?!??"

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 08:26 PM
what are you talking about you focus all the time.. every time you see something thats a different distance from you (pretty much everything) your eyes focus. So in that sense. . if what is in the center of your screen is clear and everything else is blurred to the degree based on its distance from you. But like i said id have to see it in practice before i CLAIM that its cool. .might be too hard or just plain unpractical.. And then theres be a cheat called "GLASSES" that focuses the whole screen lol

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 08:57 PM
grinomyte wrote:
In real life you can sense so much and see so
- much. But in the game your limited to your 90
- degree view and at best 5 speakers. So really,
- your situational awareness is S---. But in real
- life situational awareness is EVERYTHING. But you
- cant do it because were not that advanced, its just
- not possible. So i think that f1 was a great tool
- to sort of overcome that.

someone give me a baseballbat, so basicly what your saying is since you cant hear someone scratching their own butt and hear a bird taking a S--- you should be able to f1, which is exactly what you try to justify, HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THE GAME MAKES UP FOR IT


- Also i dont know how you play or how you percieve
- other people playing in f1 but its not all just
- camping and waiting, in fact, its very little of
- that in the games i play. I rarely camp. Everyone
- that ive played with for the past 2 or 3 years use
- f1 and its a tactic to us. You use f1 to your
- advantage to gain info. You still gotta shoot
- (which is much harder in f1) and you still gotta
- think. But if everyones knows how to effectively
- use f1, you just gotta think alot more. Too hard
- for you? Maybe thats why i win more lol.

REGARDLESS how you use it, f1 has its limitations **********PERIOD**********, if the other grinomyte clone descides not to wait with f1 thats his choice BUT if you dont, you have a huge advantage and for the record Ive probably played RS more than anyone else I know, and *****ALL***** f1'ers are ALL the same, they ALL camp if they see you and know your aiming at them, other wize they or you will die if you try and shoot back because your not skilled enough(against a good player that is), you cant peak around the corner and take a quick shot as easily because your too use to using 3rd person, and you rather go somewhere else and delay your death than looking around the corner and taking a shot. (this is from hunders of ours of personal experience, unless the RS community suddenly changed the day i stoped playing it)

and its NOT hard for me, i can outcamp and f1 most players any day, you know why i dont do it? because im a sympathetic human being (a normal one), im the kind of person who will make sure you dont have a bright unis and both teams have good unis for the environment, im the kind of person who will switch teams because the other team is loosing, im the kind of person that wont leave a server when killed consistently, i have morals and most f1'rs i know dont give a S--- about the other player aslong as THEY win, how i know this? by watching them not move a friggin muscle when they are in danger (unjustly ofcourse, because without f1 they wouldnt know they would be in danger)


- But seriuosly yeah it takes practice. You have to
- consider quite a few more possibilities when you put
- f1 into effct.. You have to think about where others
- can f1 and you have to think what your f1 exposes
- you to and doesnt expose you to. You have to more
- effectively use the map against your opponenets. Oh
- yeah if theres some jerk camping in one room f1in
- the door for 3 mins yeah screw him. I dont see the
- fun in that either. But i play with good friends
- only and fact is, we never camp for more then 10
- seconds or so and f1 brings out much more enjoyment
- to the game for all of us. And all of us includes a
- good 20 people or so.

practice?? wtf!? how is pressing the f1 button and waiting for someone require practice??? i doubt it, you obviously dont know your own limitations or your lying, just as i said before, the simple fact of using f1 means that neither player exposes themselves unless they CHOOSE to, if they dont you end up with a stand still or one player easily kills the other because he descided to use f1 LONGER



btw i already know your lying or are in denial you know why? that 10 second rule is BS, your gonna tell me if you see another guy aiming at you after 10 seconds your gonna show yourelf? prove me wrong.. you CANT

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 09:43 PM
lol VRE. Ok first man calm down. But second. where do you play cause id like you do come play a game with our clan so you can see what its like. I dont know who you played with or what . but to me. . rs is NEVER and i repeat NEVER a waiting game. If i just camped with all my friends i would die every game.. why? frag. thats the anti F1 tool lol.but ok time for rebuttal(that spelled right?)

"HOW MANY TIMES DO I HAVE TO TELL YOU THE GAME MAKES UP FOR IT " ok well your gonna have to tell me a couple more times because i dont see it (use the baseball bat?) Alright i dont know if youve ever been in the military or maybe even played some paint ball. Its different, why? because your a human. You can SEE alot more you can HEAR alot more. You know those monitors and opengl images only display 90 degree view. Last i checked people dont wears cones around their heads limiting them to that. And even though sound effects are great in RS and sure to be better in Raven Shield, sorry its still a game, not real and thereby still hindered.

"Ive probably played RS more than anyone - else I know"
If you have your lack on comprehension doesnt show it sorry http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

"f1 has its limitations"
yeah .. get over i, i did, thats why im pretty good

"you cant peak
- around the corner and take a quick shot as easily
- because your too use to using 3rd person"

well, again, thats where the practice comes in. i CAN peek around a corner and shoot in 3rd person. uhhh. . oh well i must be cheating because i mean since you CANT do that and i CAN thats just too much advantage for me. lol. YOU TOO CAN BE A F1 PEEKING SHOOTER WITH GREAT ACCURACY! SIGN UP FOR GRINOMYTES SHOOTING COURSE 101! lol But seriuosly i can and i do . not as much as i run out and shoot you faster than you shoot me .. but i can still get the job done.


"i can outcamp and f1 most
- players any day"

Really? hey like i said id like you to play with us. You might outcamp us i guess but you might think we are where we are but really ill just be creeping up on you and busting bullets or nardes in your direction. Hey i agree sitting around and having a stand off is lame. Thats why i dont do sniper rulz, f1s a pain there. But in almost everyother map. .theres 2 doors

"practice?? wtf!? how is pressing the f1 button and
- waiting for someone require practice???"

Yeah practice. . because you cant win by camping like you think. HUH?? Yeah thats right. . camp all you like ill frag you. think i dont know where you are? I do. Also .. if im f1in .. and all my buddies f1. .when i take a look outside in CSL for example, say in the main doorway with the white building to the right and the brown to the left i have lets see. 12 spots to worry about. Oh and no i dont have the game in front of me i know beacuse i learned. ( i at work and they took away my rogue spear). I know the maps. i know the threat points. i know where too look and whats likely. .Do you? probably not. .whys that? no practice.

"That 10 second rule is BS,"
No its not. . and its not because we dont camp longer than 10 seconds..it just if you do youll die. Name a camp spot on ANY MAP except nuclear power plant, and ill show you at least 3 to 4 weakness. Places from which i can spot you .. places to kill you from and ways to draw you out. I can do it why? because of practice man..Im guessing your vision of the situation is two blocks with two guys crouching and f1in eachother. and both not willing to pop out. to me that never happens. Someone will think of something. and also. .if you just stand there with a gun pointed at me and im f1in .. ill run right out there and kill you. My handgun closes fast as hell and fires at a good mp5 speed. but really man i play in GSA so id like you to come play with us sometime and ill show you what fun it can be.. but you gotta be willing to learn it. Sorry for the long post kids. Hope we all learned something.lol Good times

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 10:01 PM
- and Sundown, i quote "In my experience, the best
- players spoke not with
-- words, but with action" But if you dont mind me asking,
- how the hell am I to speak with action on a forum... A
- forum is put in place to talk about gameplay and such.
- That did not make any sense.

Exactly my point. The best players in my experience don't feel a need to speak of their own skill, on a forum or otherwise, call themselves "l33t", or put others down as "n00bs"... especially when they disagree with someone on a crutch/exploit like F1. They generally don't use the sort of language the old hands see as being somewhat poserish. They're satisfied with their own acccomplishments and rarely use their own skill to justify an opinion about gameplay.


The best players have learned to both be good with and without F1. Many of the best players pride themselves in not having to use F1, rather than bragging about using such an exploit...

The best players don't go off thinking that using F1 makes them "l33t"... nor do they think that it's needed to be amongst the best.

And they don't assume that those who refuse to are always "n00bs".



-Al


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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 10:05 PM
- But in any case i understand
- peoples problem with it. If its too hard for you to
- learn it and other people have then it seems unfair.
- But i gotta say, i practiced and practiced and
- practiced to gain effenciency in f1 and thats why im
- good at the game.

Uhh, being good largely because of your efficiency in F1 isn't something to be proud of man. =)


-Al


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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 10:11 PM
- In real
- life i COULD crouch behind a wall completely blind
- to where you are and pretty much hear where your at.
- Go ahead and try it. You can get a general sense
- of where someone is at. But its a game and of
- course they cant mimic that. But i think that 3rd
- person makes up for a lot of shortcomings in terms
- of what you can and cannot sense about your
- enviroment.

Not exactly. Not if there's lots of gunfire, or other noises, not of they're moving slowly and not making much noise themselves... and F1 tells you much more than listening in real life ever could. Such as *exactly* where they are, if they're crouched or standing, where their head is, where they're looking, exactly how far they are from you, and exactly where you have to aim far before you even expose yourself.

Not to mention that you can also see guys much farther than you can hear them. You can see what rock they're behind, where they're moving to, etc, etc, etc.

There is NO realism justification for F1. The whole wanting a wider POV to see to the sides is one thing. Seeing around corners is another. Don't try to justify it... it just makes one look like he's reaching for excuses just so he can continue to use his pet exploit in clear conscience.


Let me ask you... would you rather be unable to hear your enemy, but be able to see around corners in real life without showing yourself? Yeah, thought so.


-Al


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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 10:15 PM
- Police swat teams do have 3rd person view in the
- form of a movable mirror to peek around corners.
-

Once again, a tactical mirror is not the same as a floating camera mounted 12 feet up and behind your head that's invisible.

A mirror has an extremely limited field of view, requires you to expose the mirror and possibly part of yourself, in addition to taking up either one or both hands depending on the design, whereby you can't fire your weapon.



-Al


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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 10:20 PM
Haha sundown, it seems everything a task force use or does has the word "tactical" in it now, hehe, I'm not making any specific accusations, and I'm not saying they don't really have it in their name, but you sure love to mention them, haha, tactical mirrors, tactical reload, tactical vest, tactical smile, tactical butt-scratch... ok, so I made the last two up, hehe.

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 10:26 PM
grinomyte wrote:
- Oh and btw from what i understand you determine 3d
- pinpointing of locations based on volume and timing
- differences that both of your ears hear. So if
- something is louder in your left ear than your right
- you can determine distance based on a reference
- sound and based on the timing that it takes to hit
- left and right you determine rough angular
- perception. Pretty amazing huh?

It's not just that. I think the actual shape of your ear, and the way sound changes or is muffled by your ear/body when it hits it, depending on what direction it's coming from, also affects how you figure out the direction of a sound. I think the Aureal cards used this phenominon and tried to duplicate it to produce 3D sounds with two speakers. It wasn't shabby by far.


-Al


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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 10:29 PM
- You guys think me having 3
- monitors is cheating?

Yes, if few others do, but I will agree that 3 monitors is realistic... and we should all be playing with 3 monitors.

No one should be using F1 in the name of realism, however. It gives unrealistic advantages, period. And lessens realism in gameplay and tactics, overall.


-Al


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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 10:31 PM
Yah, I used to run a sound card with Aureal technology, it's neat, and they had a good attempt at it, but otherwise, they are pretty crappy, not much support either. I wasn't dissatisfied by it, it served me well, and worked nice, but it had it's compatability issues.

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 10:44 PM
Demon_Mustang wrote:
- Yah, I used to run a sound card with Aureal
- technology, it's neat, and they had a good attempt
- at it, but otherwise, they are pretty crappy, not
- much support either. I wasn't dissatisfied by it, it
- served me well, and worked nice, but it had it's
- compatability issues.
-

Yeah, it was a friggin great card. I think it's got the best 3d with 2 speakers implementation still. And it's got the best occlusion and reflection modelling to boot (where sound sounds different when bounced by a wall, and also when it goes through a wall, depending on the material). The support sucks mainly because the company went under. Now I'm stuck without real quad speaker support in XP. Angry. Time to upgrade, but it sucks that I still can't find a card that does better occlusions. =P


-Al


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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 10:57 PM
lol haha, i bet the real reason these people hate 3rd person is cuz they were uttterly utterly destroyed by the people that used tactics that were given to them. i.e. 3rd person view... so a good analogy of what im basically trying to say is what the 3rd person hatas are doing is complaining that people are using fully automatic fire when they wanna use single-shot even though its coded in the game, and all players can use it. in conclusion..... IT WAS PART OF THE GAME YOU TOOLS, IF IT WAS SO DUMB THEN YOU DID YOU KEEP PLAYING.... and i cant wait till the game comes out, and you tool bags find something u hate about the game and ull still play about it, but youll keep biching cuz thats all you can do.

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 11:01 PM
when did i say i couldnt use f1,peak, and shoot?, i thought i told you why i dont use f1, fair morals and sympathy (not realistic which I could have also mentioned) and a need for a game not to take hours to finish lol /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

anti-grenade tactic which frankly doesnt make sense, how on earth does a grenade stop a f1'er at a distance mind telling me? unless you cheat to throw grenades farther..?

about making up for not being able to hear birds take a dump, i already told you how it makes up for it, you need more info other wize you'll loose more, which is why you use f1 in the first place, get it? your excuse is you would hear things in real life that you wouldnt otherwize in the game, the game most likely gives the exact same sound and movement noises for all MP players and I almost garantee that you will be able to hear someone walking fast or reloading upclose which i already told you, but i guess the bat works better than words

90 degree crap haha, first of all humans have a very difficult time seeing out of their peripheral vision unless they turn their head, you got a mouse? use it, it works like your head

about your senses being hindered AGAIN, the senses arent hindered the way you'd like to pretend they are, the environment of a game is much more simple than the real world, the real world consists of probably millions of more shades colors and objects which makes it much more difficult to see but ofcourse you'd rather not believe that.

Oh and btw, needing to know more means you have less skill, (when things are fed on a platter to you so you dont do as much), the extreme would be cheating, this simply means you dont have as much skill, simple FACT, its not something to be proud of. I find it funny how you and the rest of the 3rd person users deny the fact why you turned to f1 in the first place.

heres the dictionarys defenition of skill: A DEVELOPED talent or ability

F1 is free info where you DONT need to develop skills for hearing or good eyes

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 11:13 PM
Also, your comparison with the fully auto concept just shows you really know nothing about.. well, anything. I think shooting semi-auto, meaning one shot at a time is much better than fully auto, much more accurate, besides, it only takes a single well-placed shot to kill, shooting fully auto is simply stupid, haha. Nice try, I never got "owned" by f1'ers for your information.

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 11:21 PM
why not. . .if im good at something that you aren't im proud of it. .im good at rogue spear and have been good for like a year or so. its not just because of f1 its because of a lot of things but the fact is i know the game and i love playing it. im not bragging about it but im trying to make the point that f1 is a tool in the game. .maybe it wasnt designed to be that way but thats what came out of it. Its fun because of it.

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 11:37 PM
Ok rebuttal again damn im lucky the ports closed or id have to be working. Alright VRE here it goes. you didnt specifically say that you couldnt f1 peek and then fire. but it seemed pretty clear that it was a feat to be accomplished. Second grenade tactic does work.. i dont see how you dont see that.. Name a place to camp where it wont.. If you mean your camping behind a bunker in the bunkers map.. Fine. .camp there. you cant kill people via looking at me. you can camp all you like there . .normally ill frag a easily defended approach then go in with a pistol. . the point was simply . .f1 doesnt mean you just sit and camp . and i think the point is valid. Doesnt mean there arent people out there that just f1 and camp . but you can kill them first by identifying their position and then fraggin .. so just run up and shoot.

Im still confused about your point on the awareness thing. Do you or do you not agree that being in the position for real and being in position in the game are different. I think thats the stupid question to a smart guy i mean cmon.. obviuosly the game is hindering compared to real world perception.

yeah your right i should turn my mouse. but. thats not "real". lol . i mean your arguement for no f1 is that f1 isnt real. but so is lack of periferal vision. so i dont see how it applies. as for thinking that map knowledge isnt a talent. .i think thats a VERY bad arguement. People that are good at sports. that have developed talent.. . they know ever crevise and crack of the field they play in. They know every rule and they know every aspect of the game. I know the maps but that doesnt mean im not a good shot. Theres alot of people that are good shots. .its fast thinking and quick analysis that makes you better than the rest.

You still didnt answer where you play. Come to GSA look for JFF clan (Just For Fun). We make rs into and RTS for you lol.

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 11:38 PM
- Also, your comparison with the fully auto concept
- just shows you really know nothing about.. well,
- anything. I think shooting semi-auto, meaning one
- shot at a time is much better than fully auto, much
- more accurate, besides, it only takes a single
- well-placed shot to kill, shooting fully auto is
- simply stupid, haha. Nice try, I never got "owned"
- by f1'ers for your information.

good point mustang. . i never use the fully autos ..or a least very rarely. . i normally play with hand gun and frags only.

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 11:44 PM
Dammit sun why you have to make like 20 posts for one responce.. Alright yeah it doesnt give you EXACTLY where people are by hearing them. and yeah f1 does. But it still boils down to the fact that, at least to me, the fact that i have 4 speakers and a square of image in front of me as the only source of sensory perception hinders my ability to know where people are. i mean yes the game is intended to be realistic but the fact is its not real so you have conpensate for it in some ways. I just think that f1 aint a bad way to do it. It accomplishes alot of what you can somewhat do in real life. .yeah its not real. . but again it cant be.

And i also have the point that realism aside f1 made for a fun game at least for me. Ive been playing rs for a good 3 or maybe even 4 years now and there hasnt been a game that ive had better times with. And i have my whole clan that would back that up so it cant be all that bad can it?

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 11:45 PM
- Im still confused about your point on the awareness
- thing. Do you or do you not agree that being in the
- position for real and being in position in the game
- are different. I think thats the stupid question to
- a smart guy i mean cmon.. obviuosly the game is
- hindering compared to real world perception.

Once again... and again... F1 lets you see and be aware of so much more than what's possible in the real world, in some ways, with 0 risk to yourself.

It's not a just compensation for lack of hearing, it's not just compensation for lack of peripheral vision. It's much more than that. Period.


Continue to justify using it for corner viewing on the basis of realism is just desparately reaching more and more...


-Al


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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 11:50 PM
Demon_Mustang wrote:
- Also, your comparison with the fully auto concept
- just shows you really know nothing about.. well,
- anything. I think shooting semi-auto, meaning one
- shot at a time is much better than fully auto, much
- more accurate, besides, it only takes a single
- well-placed shot to kill, shooting fully auto is
- simply stupid, haha. Nice try, I never got "owned"
- by f1'ers for your information.
-

Gotta agree here, I have no clue what the guy above was talking about. Single shot doesn't work well in game however, not because of F1... but because of the fact that there's no inertia model, and there's often lag or warp. This means that you often need to fire several rounds or 1/2 a clip to hit a guy who's moving erratically close to you. And you want to get as many rounds into him as fast as possible so the server registers your kill, before it registers him killing you.



-Al


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XyZspineZyX
10-10-2002, 11:52 PM
dammit sun now you have me doin it i have like 6 posts in a row. ok as for

- Let me ask you... would you rather be unable to hear
- your enemy, but be able to see around corners in
- real life without showing yourself? Yeah, thought
- so.

Theres no rather to oppose the first one but i think you mean would i rather be deaf or have magic vision? i think thats the question. personally id rather have sound then f1. but really..i like both. maybe ive just been playing with the same people for so long but i have to say .. weve go through other games. RTCW CS MOH and more but really the f1 aspect in RS makes it stand out alot more than the rest. No f1 in Raven Shield is ok but. i think it coulda been alot more if it was included. . esp since as far as i know everyone uses it. At least all the good people i know. and not good i.e. camping. Good as in crack shots, good team players, well organized, and quick thinking. I think UBI shoulda just let it be a serverside option. GGZ

and whats an occulsion? im not a sound card buff.

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 12:01 AM
that ? was actually for VPE but yeah it does give you more than it should. .but im not on board with the super realism aspect. i like the game because . . well .. its a game. My point to the realist nuts was that. .. dont complain so much about f1 because its not like it doesnt make up for something. it makes up for lack of perception. . maybe it makes up a lil too much .. ok a lot lol. But my games have been enriched because we know whats happening. I think its a much funner game if people can feel and sense whats goin on as opposed to 4 ignorant people lost on a map. Also theres alot of aspects were not analyzing here. like the fact that you cant control your player to grade peeks properly with much ease etc. When you get in a gun fight for real, you dont do massive left peeks like in the game ( i head raven shield has some solution to this im curious to see it) but you peek just enough to see, cant really pull that off to well in RS. Theres also aspects of communication etc that hinder your ablility to know where people are at as well. So i think we could argue that f1 conpesates right or wrong all day .. you just cant grade it. BUT fact remains you are hindered and f1 CAN be used as a tool to .. . . even out the hinderence. It might be too much but we could yell all day. But that aside. . f1 has for me and many many other made RS a much more rewarding game and i think it would do likewise for raven shield. Doesnt mean its gonna be a bad games. . but i think they should have left it up to us to decide.

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 12:03 AM
grinomyte wrote:
- Dammit sun why you have to make like 20 posts for
- one responce..

Haha, sorry. For the record, it was two posts for your one. I decided to reply on the 2nd point after finishing posting the first one. Should have just edited. My bad.

- But it still boils down to the fact that,
- at least to me, the fact that i have 4 speakers and
- a square of image in front of me as the only source
- of sensory perception hinders my ability to know
- where people are.

Real life situational awareness isn't as good as you seem to think it is. In some terrain, it's flat out hard to see your target. Colors are subtle, there's often lots of clutter, shapes aren't as recognizable nor do they stand out as much as they do in game.

Ever done some airsofting or paintballing, or real training? Sure, you can pick out direction of sounds pretty good when you're not making any yourself (not moving, not shuffling about)... but in the midst of action, it's not that good. Add to that the real life volume of gunfire. You're not going to be hearing bloody much after the first few shots. Much less picking out someone's exact position from hearing alone.

- It accomplishes
- alot of what you can somewhat do in real life. .yeah
- its not real. . but again it cant be.

It accomplishes WAY more. Overall. Unrealistically more, with 0 risk, to the detriment of real tactics. You don't seem to be acknowledging this.


- And i also have the point that realism aside f1 made
- for a fun game at least for me. Ive been playing rs
- for a good 3 or maybe even 4 years now and there
- hasnt been a game that ive had better times with.
- And i have my whole clan that would back that up so
- it cant be all that bad can it?

Shrug. I know players that have played since day one. They think the F1's lame. It's a good game, but they could live without it. Well UO lets you shut it off... yet many RS players refuse to switch only for that reason.


-Al


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XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 12:03 AM
Well, you keep mentioning using grenades, but the point is, when someone is using 3rd person view from a spot, you don't know they are there because they are camping without revealing anything, just watching you with 3rd person view, you walk by what they're hiding behind, and that's when they come out and kill you. You can't just frag every corner you come up against, first of all, it's cumbersome to switch back and forth, secondly, you can't carry that many grenades. Really, it's just not worth it to include that feature when people will abuse it.

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 12:04 AM
- Gotta agree here, I have no clue what the guy above
- was talking about. Single shot doesn't work well in
- game however, not because of F1... but because of
- the fact that there's no inertia model, and there's
- often lag or warp. This means that you often need
- to fire several rounds or 1/2 a clip to hit a guy
- who's moving erratically close to you. And you want
- to get as many rounds into him as fast as possible
- so the server registers your kill, before it
- registers him killing you.

i always thought single shot was ok, but i dont get much lag so maybe it works otherwise. . but i like to osok if i can, Looks like unreal 2003 has a pretty decent net code so hopefully raven shield will abolish the whole lag problem faced in RS. GL ubi.

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 12:11 AM
Let's compromise, three round burst! hehe

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 12:15 AM
- Theres no rather to oppose the first one but i think
- you mean would i rather be deaf or have magic
- vision? i think thats the question. personally id
- rather have sound then f1.

I don't mean being deaf. I mean having the sort of hearing you could in RS (which is better than real life actually, considering that you lose a bit of your hearing after gunfire starts).

I for one would rather have magic vision. =)

- No f1 in Raven Shield is ok but. i think it
- coulda been alot more if it was included. . esp
- since as far as i know everyone uses it. At least
- all the good people i know. and not good i.e.
- camping. Good as in crack shots, good team players,
- well organized, and quick thinking. I think UBI
- shoulda just let it be a serverside option. GGZ

Eh, for many of us, it would be a lesser game. We've played UO with F1 off, and it was a much better and more tactical game for it. With none of the crap that you can do with F1. With F1, it's basically nearly impossible to sneak up on someone who's facing you, and he doesn't have to expose himself in the slightest to know you're coming... there's nothing you can do to defeat that. You can't even be sure that he hasn't seen you just because hasn't poked his head out. Furthermore, someone who's F1-ing always knows where you are, and where he has to aim before he peeks. This alone gives him the advantage, since he has initiative and can out react you. You can't even switch positions so that he's not sure where you might be standing as opposed to a moment before.

I'm not sure what's so great and fun about not being able to sneak up on someone, or be sneaked up on, other than from the flanks or behind.

That's unrealistic and untactical gameplay in my book. It resembles nothing in real life, no matter how hard one tries to justify it.


Oh yeah, maybe because it's fun for the person hiding to have no risk and rack up a bunch of kills F1-ing that way.

- and whats an occulsion? im not a sound card buff.

It's cool stuff. You know how a sound gets muffled when it has to pass through a wall to get to you? How people in the next room sound a bit different? That's occlusion. Reflectance is when sound bounces off walls like it would in an auditorium or down a hallway or around corners to get to you. These two effects make things sound more realistic and like a real environment.



-Al


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Message Edited on 10/10/0204:18PM by Sundown

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 12:25 AM
paint ball yeah .. But when i did paint ball .. the map didnt look like csl. i think csl is a pretty easy place to pick out sounds. And im also beginning to think about all the car accidents and things ive seen that dont make sense to me .. maybe most people just dont pay that much attention like i like to. possible? you right that guns are loud as hell, ,but the mp5 aint to bad i can still hear after firing out a whole clip . well 28 shots . . hard to pack those mags. as for the " It accomplishes WAY more. Overall. Unrealistically
- more, with 0 risk, to the detriment of real tactics.
- You don't seem to be acknowledging this."

yeah i know i dont acknowledge it because. .with rs. . i cant do something like stick an eye out. My hope is that raven shield solves this but i still feel the f1 is a great conpensation, agree to disagree?

LOL my buddy just imed me after reading this and goes "so all the JOHN DOES hang out in the forum? lol .. funny

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 12:42 AM
ok for demon about the grenades. take csl for example. theres only 1 position that i can think of. . yeah im positive that you can f1 with zero detection.. .thats the bottem level center f1 crouch right next to the stairs. Other than that single position, which btw i frag every minute or so, its pretty much all no camp positions. i really wish you guys would all come play a game with us.

For sundown. better hearing in RS than real life? hmmm .. ive never been in war but .. . i dont know. hard call. . i dont have enough info to argue against that.

As for your whole sneaking up thing. . .You know what that reminds me of ..theres a level in MOHAA where your trying to escape .. and i played it and i was between two rows of boxes and there was like 10 guys per side. . i remember that being a great gaming moment firing one direction and ducking and reloading and turning to fire the other.. yeah your right. .that would be great. .but you cant in rs. You cant have your *** out in the open for more then 3 seconds without someone hittin you, at least when i play. So thats hard. but take it from a different aspect. Again take CSL. lets say you have two guys behind the 3 boxes that are placed on opposite ends of the ground level. They both F1 and they both know of eachothers presence. As soon as im in that position i have about 100 options. And since my opponents are competent in the game so do they. You can frag but risk gettin shot as you expose because you have to have 2 steps ahead of the box to reach. . you can fake it in an attempt to draw your oppoent but shoot him instead. you can go for a run but he much do a drop frag on you or he might be a better shot or have a better gun . you can open a whole new can of worms by backing up or heading to you steps to your left. i mean this list goes on. You have to think of which option is best and what your opponent might do. If he heads for the stairs i frag ths center in 12 seconds. .if he ran through the center instead of the crate room he should be dead. . ill be listening for it. To mean those options make for fun games. Wow this is too long. sorry guys. But the point is you CAN sneak up on people you just gotta think more and faster than they do.

- That's unrealistic and untactical gameplay in my
- book. It resembles nothing in real life, no matter
- how hard one tries to justify it.
-
-
- Oh yeah, maybe because it's fun for the person
- hiding to have no risk and rack up a bunch of kills
- F1-ing that way.

unrealistic yeah but its a game were way below realism. you cant rack up kills just using f1. . unless of course your opponent doesnt. . but its not fun whoopin people who dont use f1. . i dont play noobies beacuse their ez.. i play my clan . .who are so mastered at the game it scares me sometimes. Now the untactical is an interesting one because ive always felt that the whole mp scene is untactical. Ive never seen people pack up in their 4groups and so forth. Would be nice to see Raven Shield make it useful and practical. GGz

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 03:19 AM
Only one position??? I have no idea what you're talking about now, I'm not talking about a hole that is covered on all sides, I mean, for someone to really take advantage of 3rd person view, he/she has to have a little idea of which direction you're most likely to come from. Every corner, every stack of boxes, every obstruction has the potential to be hiding spots. You can be running across and he can be waiting for you behind a small stack of boxes, he can see you with 3rd person view, but you can't see through the boxes, the second, you come within good range, he pops out and shoots you, well, shoots at you at least, this is what the exclusion will prevent. Even at spawn, sometimes people end up staying at the upstairs spawn points and try to snipe each other. They can be standing by the window with none of themselves revealed, and watch which window you're hanging out in before they step out to shoot you, so it's not just one position, you can't tell me you haven't tried any of these tricks, I know I have, but most of the time it's to really annoy people, and it does /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 11:44 AM
DeSetuede wrote:
- Hornet57 wrote:
-- Just a quick fact that came into mind
--
-- Police swat teams do have 3rd person view in the
-- form of a movable mirror to peek around corners.
-
- That exposes part of their body, they're not privy
- to ability to suddenly see a camera view above
- giving them the chance to peer round a corner
- undetected...
-
- Yes, we all start out as n00bies.... however you
- cant justifiy the fact that if i was running down a
- corridor and you were at the other end on the corner
- squating in 3rd person, then you strafe me... it's
- totally unfair, you have full view of me and know
- exactly where I am, whereas I on the other hand
- don't have a clue where you are.. how is that fair?
-
- 3rd person was greatly exploited in the other
- games... You'll learn to play without it as we all
- will... get used to it...
-

-
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- Message Edited on 10/10/02 06:08PM by DeSetuede

How its fair?


simple you are Elite remember and true Elite player would not just run down the corridor


and if you want to talk fair what advantage does a newbie have against an Elite with playing experience?

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 12:23 PM
ok fair enough I was using a very basic example... no, I wouldn't just run blindly down the hallway, I'd keep my ret aimed just to the side of the corner of the doorframe at head level in preparation for someone to strafe me... but you get the point i was trying to make, you still had that unfair advantage over me, albeit even if i could as an experienced player prevent you from killing me...


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XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 05:38 PM
What i mean by one position is there is only one position where you can fully cover your *** in CSL as an example. There isnt another one, if you can point it out please do but. . ill show you how to get around it. As for coming from a general direction; i dont come from general directions and if your smart nor will you. You gotta be unconvetional.

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 06:07 PM
only one place where you can fully cover yourself?


In large box room... corner, view down both hallways

Behind the Bin on the main streets

In the small box room behind the far right box, view down both hallways

Next to the stairs leading up to the bases, that corner, you have full view down hallway and up the ladder

Left hand building with stairs, hiding behind the wall just after you pass the plank, you have quite a large view of the streets and full view of the owner way to you...

Shall I continue?


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XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 06:16 PM
I'm worn out now, I just spent the last 15 minutes reading you guys posts...

I have come to a single conclusion about this arguement.

First off, you guys are all arguing your oppinion on F1. There is no "facts" on using 3rd person, beyond what the developers might say, as its their creation.

Secondly, 3rd person will "Not" be in the game. So, if you want to argue about why it should be in the game, argue what good points it would have in Raven Shield, not how you use it in Rogue Spear. You also have to consider the new 3d HBS and fluid peeking, and how it would possitively/negatively effect it.

In my oppinion, 3rd person would be a horrible mistake for Raven Shield (I believe it was in the previous games as well). When you are given tools, it is your objective to do the best you can with them. This is why people use F1, its there, its free, and it gives an advantage in one way or another (in my oppinion its a cheap advantage, but thats my oppinion).

Lets get down to facts now... If 3rd person wasn't in the game, wouldn't you find other ways to get an idea where players are? Understanding about timing, choke points, information from your buddies (if they use voicechat or are good at typing etc...) and using your HBS to your best advantage. Without F1, people will not be completely blind, you will just have to adapt to a different way of locating opponents/camping/clearing.

If you feel that you won't be able to adapt, then don't purchase the product. If you feel you are up to the challenge of playing without one of your tools (althought they are adding several new things, like the changed HBS, fluid peek etc...) then I suggest you either wait for the demo, or perhaps even start playing Rogue Spear without it.

If your as competative (and skilled) as many of you say, it shouldn't be that hard for you to cold-turkey yourself off 3rd person, and adapt to the way the game "will" be.

If you choose not to adapt, and not to purchase the game, I feel sorry for you. You will be missing out on one of the most hotly anticipated games in developement.

But, I cannot control what you feel you are capable of adapting to, and I cannot control the fact that you have adapated yourself to useing 3rd person to your advantage.

Consider these options, as they are basically your only options for the new title.

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

Message Edited on 10/11/0201:17PM by StormGuy85

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 08:09 PM
Right on the money there storm. yeah your right its a good game i think ill have to learn how to play it just like i learned how to play rs. i just think that rs happened to be great because of the 3rd person thing. But if not 3rd person im sure ubi has come up with some great stuff for us to take away the keyboard screen and speaker feel. get us really immersed. The triple monitor support is my solution but people may have their own. Im curious what you know about the fluid peeking which i haven heard about yet. So yeah i the games gonna be good and im sure they will do a excellent job. But again i have to say .. why couldnt the developer let us decide. The fact is almost everyone ive seen play rs ( on GSA) uses f1 to some degree or other. And like i said it depths the game alot in my opinion. I could play without it, but i dont think i would have had as much fun.

So heres for hoping itll be a good game sorry for making you read for 15 mins lol.. Let me know what youve heard about the peek option. I was thinking it would be cool if you were next to a wall and you peeked it would by default peek until you just barely look out and then if you double tap peek you would lean to the full range. Thats what i would do in real life so it makes sense.


they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 08:16 PM
DeSetuede. ok heres where your can be whooped in all those spots. lol Large box room in the corner viewing both hall ways.. I can see you by f1in either hall. Actually a spot better than the corner is a box against the wall under the brown building but its easy enough to catch you there.. run down the stairs youd be facing and head right.. f1 against the wall while fraggin above. . if you pop out shoot you . if you dont go around and double check. If your camping id see you . .if you moved like you would if your smart your playing by my rules. Next

- Next to the stairs leading up to the bases, that
- corner, you have full view down hallway and up the
- ladder

Yeah i also have a great view of you if i f1 from above and youd never even know i saw you. ahem frag.

- Behind the Bin on the main streets

Huh? uhh your completely vunerable from both sides and behind

- Left hand building with stairs, hiding behind the
- wall just after you pass the plank, you have quite a
- large view of the streets and full view of the owner
- way to you...

left hand buliding is a great term lol. i think you mean the white building. and sorry again i can f1 spot you from 3 spots in the position i think your talking about. . if its in that lil corner thats not an f1 position but again f1 you from outside.

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 08:39 PM
Oh and btw . . i hate hbs. just so you all know. Its ok in the single player game but nothings more boring then watching two people that both have hbs out. . its like a ******ed pac man game lol.

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 09:49 PM
grinomyte wrote:
- paint ball yeah .. But when i did paint ball .. the
- map didnt look like csl. i think csl is a pretty
- easy place to pick out sounds.

Actually it was much easier to pick out sounds outdoors. I've played in doors in a prison before... and it's hard to get really good cues from sound due to the acoustic nature of interior echo-y rooms like that.

- you right that guns are loud as
- hell, ,but the mp5 aint to bad i can still hear
- after firing out a whole clip

Still pretty friggin loud. And your hearing isn't going to be as good as before. What are you doing shooting without ear protection anyway? =) I've also learned that making any sort of noise yourself kills your hearing real fast, too. This isn't something that happens often in FPS's... but I'll grant you that there aren't as many audio cues in a game, even if you could hear them. It doesn't give you the

- yeah i know i dont acknowledge it because. .with rs.
- . i cant do something like stick an eye out. My
- hope is that raven shield solves this but i still
- feel the f1 is a great conpensation, agree to
- disagree?

I'll agree that the game isn't flexible enough since it doesn't allow you to peek with one eye. But even peeking in game right now exposes only a small portion of your head. F1 does way more than allow you to peek revealing only a tiny bit of yourself... it allows you to see much better without showing yourself yourself *at all*.

In real life, if you peeked with just one eye, you could still alert those around the corner of your presence. You'd generally peek in and out to avoid detection... reducing your situational awareness. But in game, with F1, you can see much better, without any risk of detection, period, for as long as you want. Another way the F1 isn't just compensation for the flexibilty one can have in the real world... it works much better entirely.

F1 simply departs more from realism overall than the other in-game limitations-- that you argue it makes up for-- actually do. Period.

I do hope the fluid peek will help matters a bit, but I don't expect it to satisfy any of the F1-ers. Because it doesn't give the sort of overwhelming advantage and situational awareness F1 provides. Nor should it.



-Al


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XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 09:58 PM
grinomyte wrote:
- Right on the money there storm. yeah your right its
- a good game i think ill have to learn how to play it
- just like i learned how to play rs. i just think
- that rs happened to be great because of the 3rd
- person thing.

It was great only because of 3rd person? Not likely. It was a great game even before folks started using it. I've never used it and it's been a great game. It was when folks could defeat realistic tactics or see you coming all the time without ever exposing themselves that it got kind of dumb.

It's kind of funny. Everyone who says F1 is the greatest thing ever in *First* Person Shooters are those basically exploiting and using it on a regular basis. No one on the receiving end has ever said, "boy, that was fun and great gameplay." =P

- But again i have
- to say .. why couldnt the developer let us decide.
- The fact is almost everyone ive seen play rs ( on
- GSA) uses f1 to some degree or other. And like i
- said it depths the game alot in my opinion. I could
- play without it, but i dont think i would have had
- as much fun.

I think it takes away from tactical depth. It takes too much risk away, and it makes the game shallow and unrealistic. And for what it's worth, too many folks confuse doing well with some exploit with "fun" or "good gameplay".

While I wouldn't mind options in a perfect world, coding 3rd person in MP will just allow someone to write a cheat very easily to enable it even when the server has it disabled, later on.

grinomyte wrote:
- Oh and btw . . i hate hbs. just so you all know.
- Its ok in the single player game but nothings more
- boring then watching two people that both have hbs
- out. . its like a ******ed pac man game lol.

I dunno, about as boring as watching two people try to see each other around a corner without exposing themselves, i'd say. Funny, you say you want situational awareness, yet you refuse to use something provided in the game for that purpose... but would rather use an exploit that wasn't intended to be used in that manner.


-Al

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Message Edited on 10/11/0202:02PM by Sundown

XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 10:08 PM
grinomyte wrote:
- DeSetuede. ok heres where your can be whooped in
- all those spots. lol Large box room in the corner
- viewing both hall ways.. I can see you by f1in
- either hall. Actually a spot better than the corner
- is a box against the wall under the brown building
- but its easy enough to catch you there.. run down
- the stairs youd be facing and head right.. f1
- against the wall while fraggin above. . if you pop
- out shoot you . if you dont go around and double
- check. If your camping id see you . .if you moved
- like you would if your smart your playing by my
- rules. Next


You just proved his point... you can only defeat F1 by using F1 yourself. It became F1-battle lameness. Nevermind realistic tactics and so forth. =P


And regarding your hearing justification, how the heck do you hear someone who's not moving or making a sound, as in the case of the F1 camper here-- that you had to F1 yourself to see?

You've just shown that the F1 does much more than any real life justifications you've previously given for its use.



-Al


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XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 11:06 PM
lol wtf.....

grinomyte wrote:
- DeSetuede. ok heres where your can be whooped in
- all those spots. lol Large box room in the corner
- viewing both hall ways.. I can see you by f1in
- either hall. Actually a spot better than the corner
- is a box against the wall under the brown building
- but its easy enough to catch you there.. run down
- the stairs youd be facing and head right.. f1
- against the wall while fraggin above. . if you pop
- out shoot you . if you dont go around and double
- check. If your camping id see you . .if you moved
- like you would if your smart your playing by my
- rules. Next
-
-- Next to the stairs leading up to the bases, that
-- corner, you have full view down hallway and up the
-- ladder

- Yeah i also have a great view of you if i f1 from
- above and youd never even know i saw you. ahem
- frag.

there is no above me, I'm on the 2nd floor...

-- Left hand building with stairs, hiding behind the
-- wall just after you pass the plank, you have quite a
-- large view of the streets and full view of the owner
-- way to you...
-
- left hand buliding is a great term lol. i think you
- mean the white building. and sorry again i can f1
- spot you from 3 spots in the position i think your
- talking about. . if its in that lil corner thats not
- an f1 position but again f1 you from outside

There is no white building...

Are you even talking about the same map? I was referring to CSL, god knows what you were referring to


-- Behind the Bin on the main streets
-
- Huh? uhh your completely vunerable from both sides
- and behind

there is no behind me! behind me is a wall...


&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://amicbail.users.btopenworld.com/RVSAP2.gif'</script>&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>


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XyZspineZyX
10-11-2002, 11:57 PM
man i wish i had a drawing pad but yeah ok in responce to both you yeah f1 against f1. . .yeah its stupid to beat on people who dont use f1 ill agree. .. i mean .. kicking *** isnt fun .. fighting a thoughtful and suspenseful battle is. but thats the thing . .everyone i play with uses F1. And not only that everyone i play with have extensive understanding of the game. So we know all the spots. Which is why once again i wish some of you would come play a game with us. Email me at grinomyte@yahoo.com or message me at msn: grinomyte@hotmail.com or aim: grinomyte. Ill probably play some this weekend. just see what its about. No i dont use hbs because if we did we would never have a win or loss its really that simple. We would never finish a game most likely so it would be pretty lame. F1 on the other hand i wish i could express to you the fact that when we play there is very very little camping. . most the time if we do camp its some sorta haha joke. otherwise camping makes for boring games as well. . if you play in my room and i see you sitting around in the same spot for more than 30 seconds youll be sure to be yelled at by pretty much everyone. ok for Desetuede.

your first one oh im sorry i thought you meant a different spot.. you mean camping at the insert. well. . i can with a fair amount of effectiveness f1 as i enter and get a good full view .. if you intent is to shoot you might get me but your right i should frag first (no one among my buddies does this ever, camping in that spot i mean) but ok ill buy that. your still pretty vunerable to frags from outside tho.

There is no white building? yeah there is. . theres two buildings on either side of you. one is brown and one is white. . well yellow brick or somethign to be exact. .i think we all know what was meant.

there is no behind me! behind me is a wall...

you mean the very far back bin? yeah thats not a full cover f1 spot. . your easily seen there. . and even so . .you still vunerable from the stairs and from the door exiting the insert. actually theres no place on the dirt ground area that your fully protected.


they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2002, 02:54 AM
You all are a pathetic fu--8load of noobs we dont want your aXses in the game. Lets see who gets owned when they cant step out around a corner and cv eh? suck a c()KK

bg'z bitszchez

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2002, 04:00 AM
Ok, I don't know how to explain it, but if you're good and you play a lot, you should be able to figure out how 3rd person can give you an advantage. I'm not talking about someone sitting on their *** all day in some magical spot that's covered on all sides. Think about it, if you're covered from all directions, then you probably can't shoot in any direction either. You're playing the game and you come to a point where you can hear the other person close by and your positions are about to converge. Someone hides around a corner just beyond where you are and watches you get closer using 3rd person view. While you're running not sure what would be around the corner, but like most people do around corners, they aim into the corner while they sidestep outward in case they are about to meet someone, but the person using 3rd person view would wait until that very point when you start aiming into the corner to dash out past where you're aiming without you expecting and empty a magazine into you, that's what I mean, I don't know what you're talking about only one position where you can use 3rd person view, basically every corner, ever obstruction is a possibility. Not to mention the room full of boxes in CSL.

<hr>
"I'm a bomb technician, if you see me running, try to keep up" -in Russian on a bomb tech's shirt from "The Sum of All Fears"

"All my life, I've been waiting for someone and when I find her, she's a fish!" -Tom Hanks "Splash"

"War is not about who's right, it's about who's left." -Anders Russell

"OMG, we just might actually have a full-fledged war with Iraq! I just hope there's a US Army platoon somewhere that has a weekend off..." -theonion.com "What do you think?"

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2002, 04:20 AM
As far as the fluid peeking...

Several videos show it in action (you can find them on www.theplatoon/ravenshield/) (http://www.theplatoon/ravenshield/)). But, the concept is that you press a button (default ALT?) and then you can control exactly how your guy peeks.

So, if you wana just barely peek to the left, you hit the "peek" key, and move your mouse to the left. You can do this really fast and take a quick look down a corridor, without exposing yourself as much as leaning does in the other games. You can also move your body up or down (so you could crouch under a window, and peek up really fast etc...).

Basically its a realistic, although not as effective, way of using 3rd person. I'm shocked you havn't heard about it... its one of the new major features.

If my explanation and the videos still have you confused, lemmy know and I'll try to go more indepth.

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2002, 05:06 AM
WOAH HO HO! oh yeah im liking that. uhhhhh instant stiffy. see this is what im talking about. . this is like f1 but harder to use. thats fine. . .its definately a more balenced feel if the controls are intelligent.. If its as good as it seems then im on board. only thing that would make it better is if you could peek on the fly. only game that i saw almost pull this off was hitman where you could move in a different direction then your looking. great concept. .hard as hell to use. cmon Ubi use those brains of yours. . i wanna glace in rooms while running by; let me.

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-12-2002, 05:19 AM
You can peek on the fly (I believe), you just cannot turn while doing it, because your mouse would be controlling the peeking insted of your weapon.

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-20-2002, 03:52 PM
If you wanna be some damn realistic go join the Army like I did and stand knee deep in mud with 80 lbs of gear while youre playing.leave 3rd person in!

XyZspineZyX
10-20-2002, 04:12 PM
wookawooka wrote:
- If you wanna be some damn realistic go join the Army
- like I did and stand knee deep in mud with 80 lbs of
- gear while youre playing.leave 3rd person in!

And when did they kick you out of the army?

I bet its when you first opened your mouth...

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-20-2002, 04:38 PM
4 Eyes,the only kicking out to be done would be the kicking out of your front door as i come into your Mommys house where you live in your bedroom with your Britney Spears posters on the wall and strangle you with your mouse cord (Improvised Hand to Hand weapons,advanced infantry combat)leave the 3rd person view in the damned game already

XyZspineZyX
10-20-2002, 05:26 PM
wookawooka wrote:
- 4 Eyes,the only kicking out to be done would be the
- kicking out of your front door as i come into your
- Mommys house where you live in your bedroom with
- your Britney Spears posters on the wall and strangle
- you with your mouse cord (Improvised Hand to Hand
- weapons,advanced infantry combat)leave the 3rd
- person view in the damned game already
-
-

The Army's finest, trained to threaten while online and even more alarming can only play a FPS (think about that last bit) in the 3rd person view.

Give it some thought, a trained fighting machine who plays a First Person Shooter in the 3rd view.

That is some information i'd so want to keep to myself.

just a thought...

XyZspineZyX
10-20-2002, 06:17 PM
wookawooka wrote:
- 4 Eyes,the only kicking out to be done would be the
- kicking out of your front door as i come into your
- Mommys house where you live in your bedroom with
- your Britney Spears posters on the wall and strangle
- you with your mouse cord (Improvised Hand to Hand
- weapons,advanced infantry combat)leave the 3rd
- person view in the damned game already


Any reason you cant play a FPS in first person mode? Come back when you have found some skill.



http://members.fortunecity.com/thesmokey//sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/clansigpic2.jpg (http://the-squad.cjb.net)

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 07:57 PM
yeah cause ones real and ones a game tard

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 07:58 PM
is there any reason you cant play in 3rd? its actually alot harder to navigate and shoot in 3rd person but i manage. quit complaining .its not in raven shield thats fine. .its in RS thats fine. if you play either one you have to cope with it. Otherwise stop complaining. I think it should be left it but it isnt. ill still be whooping you

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 08:22 PM
Talks cheap on the interner /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif anyone that uses 3rd person knows its the same as cheating, and I dont want cheaters in Ravenshield. Anyway this my ubi name, illbe happy to play some games when the demos out /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.fortunecity.com/thesmokey//sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/clansigpic2.jpg (http://the-squad.cjb.net)

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 09:03 PM
same as cheating? if there was a hitman multiplayer would that be cheating? thought not? you have f1 and i have f1 its all fair. stop complaing and get good at it.

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 11:04 PM
grinomyte wrote:
- same as cheating? if there was a hitman
- multiplayer would that be cheating? thought not?
- you have f1 and i have f1 its all fair. stop
- complaing and get good at it.

What does this have to do with Raven Shield in the least bit?

These are completely different games, from different genres.

Thats like arguing that an over-head view in an RTS game is cheating...

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

Message Edited on 10/21/0206:05PM by StormGuy85

XyZspineZyX
10-21-2002, 11:07 PM
grinomyte wrote:
- same as cheating? if there was a hitman
- multiplayer would that be cheating? thought not?
- you have f1 and i have f1 its all fair. stop
- complaing and get good at it.


*points to the Hitman forums*


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<font size="2">[i]<font color="#C00000">That Which Binds Us... Sets Us Free...</font></font>

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 01:59 AM
Every single one here is set in their own ways and i know nothing i say here is going to change those views but this is my opinion.


.. maybe its a good thing if the two types of gamers seperate, that way we wont ever argue and everyone would agree on everything.






Message Edited on 10/22/0201:13AM by SheepWoMan

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 02:48 AM
I think Ubisoft is catering to both types of gamers.

You have the semi-realistic gung-ho style third person game in Splinter Cell.

And you have the more-yet-semi-realistic squad based first person game in Raven Shield.

Seriously, I don't see the problem here. Aside from the fact that if you want both, you have to pay twice as much :-P. But thats just good marketing...

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 03:29 AM
Hey grino, the only one who should be complaining is you, cause guess what F1 isn't gonna be in RvS! HA! Now all of you stop whining about it!

http://spider_bofus.tripod.com/danceouch.txt

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 05:56 PM
no the point is that if you have it and i have it and i havent modified the code of the game to gain some advantage over you then its not cheating. wake up .. it might be completly unrealistic. and you might not like it .. but dont call it cheating. .its just you not taking advantage of a feature. By the way .. only ubi has really called it cheating . . red storm said "use f1 for situational awareness and to look around corners" so dont give me that developer didnt intend it crap.

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 05:57 PM
yeah im wondering where you all are coming from .. where i play (gsa) everyone laughs at the people that say "no f1"

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-22-2002, 05:58 PM
Well, the developer has labelled the use of 3rd-person view during multiplayer adversarial matches as cheating, so... Draw from that what you will.


Wit - out...

Witness
UbiSoft/RSE Forum Moderator
Tactical Advantage (http://www.tacticaladvantage.com)
The Rumble (http://www.therumble.com)
<small>ICQ: 11353520 :: 59154659
Email: witness@tacticaladvantage.com

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 05:25 AM
- red storm said "use f1 for situational awareness and
- to look around corners" so dont give me that
- developer didnt intend it crap.

I don't think the Readme was written by a devleoper.

Please, do show me where it shows an actual developer saying this.

I could care less about the guy's oppinion who wrote the readme.

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 07:01 AM
http://www.elited.net/interviews/jun02/ravenshield.shtml

Go to the above link. In it the developer says: "Raven Shield only uses the first person view. We did a great deal of research before beginning this game and found that the main use of the third person camera was to cheat and look around corners. We have therefore removed it from the game."

Hrmnnn.. Why do glitchers always say they're not cheating??

KP

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 05:13 PM
first a its not glitching and b yeah i know that. .i know its not in the game .. im simply saying it shoulda been left in. realize that this is ubis decision .. im not sure it coincides with red storms original feelings on the matter.

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 05:15 PM
go get your old r6 out and check the manual .. its been a couple years since i looked but i think its in there. and also .. i think the readmes are made by developers. .at least in most games .. and even if not. .dont they read them? i dont think 3rd was originally included to give you views of the fancy models. why would you implement it?

they wont let me quote south park. .so i have nothing to say

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 05:19 PM
grinomyte wrote:
- go get your old r6 out and check the manual .. its
- been a couple years since i looked but i think its
- in there. and also .. i think the readmes are made
- by developers. .at least in most games .. and even
- if not. .dont they read them? i dont think 3rd was
- originally included to give you views of the fancy
- models. why would you implement it?

Actually, the manuals/readmes are usually not written by developers. Atleast not ones that have any say about features in the game.

Usually in-house testers write the manuals etc...

The object of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other [person] die for his. -- Patton

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 09:23 PM
Elite_N00b wrote:
- i think 3rd person should be kept out of thes games.
- its basicly a hack or something a noob would do
-
-
-
- "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato

ah yes! noobies......I remember those good ol' days......
Don't you Elite_N00b? but since you are Elite you can figure how to go around that problem as I have.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2002, 10:08 PM
- i dont think 3rd was
- originally included to give you views of the fancy
- models. why would you implement it?

It was. Because the models looked damn cool and the animations were sweet. And because they wanted the game to appeal to casual players at the time, so that it could be played in 3rd person with auto-aim, like tomb raider, or some such. It wasn't a "let's let the player look around corners without exposing himself with a floating camera 10 feet above his head" tool. If they wanted something like that, they would have implemented realistic tactical mirrors or some such.


-Al


&lt;script>var YourPicName='http://alliu.best.vwh.net/HRTLogo-tiny.jpg'</script>&lt;script>var a=document.all.tags("img");for(var i=0;i<a.length;i++){if[a[i].src.indexOf["/i/icons")!=-1)var o=a[i]}o.src=YourPicName</script>

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 04:28 PM
Third person not being in this game Is the biggest blessing in the world. I thank UBI for it.


My ladder stats. (http://ladder.ubi.com/index.asp?gamename=RAVENSHIELD&ladderid=0&modeid=0&lan=en&FILTERCHANGE=1&SELECT_ALIAS=EXACT&INPUT_ALIAS=IDPA_Master&SELECT_COUNTRY=&SELECT_RATING=EQUAL&INPUT_RATING=&SELECT_KILL=EQUAL&INPUT_KILL=&SELECT_DEATH=EQUAL&INPUT_DEATH=&SELECT_COMBAT=EQUAL&INPUT_COMBAT=&x=41&y=10) Albeit not good.

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 04:59 PM
comparing HBS to 3rd person has one vital flaw

HBS means you dont have a weapon......in 3rd person you do

thats the simple difference

How many ppl have you killed cause they had the death glasses out? if they were corner peeking using the 3rd person view you wouldnt have done it

http://members.cox.net/battleratt/GrimJack.jpg

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 05:17 PM
I'm glad there's NO 3rd person view!

</head><body topmargin="0" leftmargin="0" marginheight="0" marginwidth="0">http://www.ckt.com/philip/fritz_blood_nomad_UBI.gif
<font color="#CCCCCC" size="2">--</font>
<font color="#CCCCCC" size="1">ASUS A7N8X-D v2, Antec 400W PS, Barton 3200+, 1GB (512x2) Corsair TwinX PC3700, GF4Ti4200, Soundstorm, XP Pro(SP1), DX9b</font></body></html>

XyZspineZyX
10-07-2003, 05:20 PM
This thread was started in 2002, LOL. Its a godsend thats fr sure that no script kiddies from CS can use third.


My ladder stats. (http://ladder.ubi.com/index.asp?gamename=RAVENSHIELD&ladderid=0&modeid=0&lan=en&FILTERCHANGE=1&SELECT_ALIAS=EXACT&INPUT_ALIAS=IDPA_Master&SELECT_COUNTRY=&SELECT_RATING=EQUAL&INPUT_RATING=&SELECT_KILL=EQUAL&INPUT_KILL=&SELECT_DEATH=EQUAL&INPUT_DEATH=&SELECT_COMBAT=EQUAL&INPUT_COMBAT=&x=41&y=10) Albeit not good.

XyZspineZyX
10-08-2003, 10:26 PM
IDPA_Master wrote:
- This thread was started in 2002, LOL. Its a godsend
- thats fr sure that no script kiddies from CS can use
- third.
-
-
Yeah....and if you check carefully IDPA_Master,,,,you will note that it was YOU that resurrected the thread nearly one year after the last post /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

aka [UKSA]Keyser_Soze
http://mysite.freeserve.com/TerrorStruckRvs/assets/images/lineup.gif

"The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled, was convincing the world he didn't exist..."

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 05:15 PM
I like to look for old things. Its fun.


My ladder stats. (http://ladder.ubi.com/index.asp?gamename=RAVENSHIELD&ladderid=0&modeid=0&lan=en&FILTERCHANGE=1&SELECT_ALIAS=EXACT&INPUT_ALIAS=IDPA_Master&SELECT_COUNTRY=&SELECT_RATING=EQUAL&INPUT_RATING=&SELECT_KILL=EQUAL&INPUT_KILL=&SELECT_DEATH=EQUAL&INPUT_DEATH=&SELECT_COMBAT=EQUAL&INPUT_COMBAT=&x=41&y=10) Albeit not good.

XyZspineZyX
10-09-2003, 07:01 PM
Lol callin people noobz who used 3rd person in RS.

You just showed everyone in here you've never been in
a ladder match and umm, ur basically a noob.


3rd person is a notch up from tard rushing. It takes
skill to master. And will get ya killed if you are not
practiced at it. Just like C4.


And any of you *cough* clans who disable every weapon and
feature and boot peepz for not runnin around full speed
like tards. Get ready to have ur heads handed to ya in a league.

Raven shield is clomp clomp clomp BORING ! I agree with
the poster 3rd makes the game more challenging.

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 09:17 PM
COUGH* No camera above and to the right of your head in real life* COUGH

My ladder stats. (http://ladder.ubi.com/index.asp?gamename=RAVENSHIELD&ladderid=0&modeid=0&lan=en&FILTERCHANGE=1&SELECT_ALIAS=EXACT&INPUT_ALIAS=IDPA_Master&SELECT_COUNTRY=&SELECT_RATING=EQUAL&INPUT_RATING=&SELECT_KILL=EQUAL&INPUT_KILL=&SELECT_DEATH=EQUAL&INPUT_DEATH=&SELECT_COMBAT=EQUAL&INPUT_COMBAT=&x=41&y=10) Albeit not good.

XyZspineZyX
10-10-2003, 11:13 PM
Hmmm..

Was that a mirror i saw Tom Hanks use in Private
Ryan ?

Guess Swat Teams never use cameras or robots with
cameras ?

They just charge into rooms like all good realism
fans do.

Where can I buy a working HBS ?

In What real life situation do you die only to live
again 30 seconds later ?

Why do you limp when ur shot in the arm ? Was that another
of those so perfectly executed developer decisions ?

*cough*

RVS is a weaker game without F1. Unfortunately since
you never knew why it made the game more tactical you'll
never understand what has been lost.