AI needs a serious overhall

[sapre]

Look, i like this sim, but WHEN IS THE GOD**** AI IS GOING TO BE FIXED!
I'm getting tired watching wildcats and buffalos doing stall maneuver to evade,
zero chasing a hellcat in dive at 900kmh,
zeros carrying bombs at pearl harbor and midway,
kate dropping torpedos to the ground,
Squadron not stoping fighting until they are all dead etcetra.
Just look at the casualty rate of your squadron in dynamic campaign.
No squad will be allowed to continue with that high rate!
Oleg said AI will be improved in PF before the release, but i don't see any improvement here.
Did he just lie?
Or is it going to be included in patch?
First of all, why did he made the AI this way?
Even EAW AI had a feature where when your squadron suffers too much loss ground control tells the squadron leader to return to base.
Why can't PF have the same?
And why every aircraft is using the same tactics?
I never seen any plane trying to BnZ.
Never.
I have to say current AI of PF is not so better then the one in CFS2.
Personally I don't give a **** about new airplanes or new FM or new maps.
I want a better AI.
And I don't care even if it's going to take half a year to do it.

Sorry for the rant, but I REALLY WANT A IMPROVED AI.
Please Oleg, I'm begging you!

[VW-IceFire]

MMMmmmm I don't agree one bit...

I'm having a great time trying to adapt to the new AI. They behave differently, they get into the perpetual wing into the ground stalls less, they are more random, they shoot deflection better, and they make mistakes sometimes too...I get less of the same predictable behavior and more things to keep me guessing.

Let me say a few things about your observations. I've read that the AI in the DGEN campaigns wasn't quite right...apparently the patch + changing some settings in the DGEN.ini will make it more challenging.

Individual aircraft and flights will sometimes disengage. Not due to overall losses (that is a good idea and something they could add - but problematic because the AI would have to know to escape while not puting themselves in danger) but due to damage. So if they get shot up a bit...they will RTB. Sometimes in groups.

The AI does use BNZ tactics. Its not strict BNZ but its more akin to the types of tactics that FW190 pilots used on the Western Front against Spitfires and the type of tactic that I use online. You bounce the plane from above, turn a bit with them if necessary and then use remaining energy to zoom up above and back down again. Requires a fast and heavy plane...but the AI has been doing this since AEP2.01 and its fairly effective.

Is the AI perfect? No! But its not bad and it continues to improve. PF's AI is better than any other WWII flight sim AI I've seen so far. The fact that it surprises me and keeps me guessing is great. Keep in mind that more complicated AI takes more CPU cycles and that its extremely difficult to program in the first place (its still an experimental art really).

[jazman777]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sapre:
Sorry for the rant, but I REALLY WANT A IMPROVED AI.
Please Oleg, I'm begging you! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
AI in all games is way below human capabilities. It's really really really hard to do. We can all make a litany of AI problems that keeps our AI squad from getting that 20-to-1 kill ratio.

[LEXX_Luthor]

Most complaints are about dogfighting AI one against one where the Player fixates on just the target. In a big furball its now more dangerous than ever especially cos the AI focus in its shots better and surprise you while you stare at your target.

[Athosd]

I agree with Icefire on this one - AI certainly is far from perfect but it is evolving.

Not 100% sure about this yet - but I've seen AI pilots taking steps to avoid crashing into forests when making a forced landing. Have watched this happen a number of times now - they aren't always successful, but at least they appear to be trying.

Sapre - I'm sure Oleg and his team also want everything in the sim to improve, however with limited resources only so much can be done at once.

I work with big systems that are often supported by large teams of programmers (SAP/R3 has thousands) - even relatively simple enhancement requests routinely take many months to reach production. Oleg's crew get an A+ from me in this regard.

Cheers

Athos

[13sqGambler]

I think the AI have taken a step back since AEP 2.04 overall.

When you tell your wingman to Cover Me before entering a furball...he peels off to his 4 o'clock, flies away about 5 klicks and stays there, 8 times out of 10. Then sometimes, they'll fly in formation when they actually do engage with enemy planes. I think my AI wingman sometimes is trying out for the enemy's version of the Blue Angels or something.

If you tell them to attack targets, they won't respond until you're about 2000 meters from a target, then fire for example two of their 8 rockets and fly away. Sometimes, they'll turn back...if you tell them to engage again and again.

When you're landing on a carrier, and you only have a wingman, not a flight and can't tell him to RTB, he's going to run into the water every time.

Now, it does seem the AI that aren't intermixed with humans, TBF's for example, are a bit improved...as long as you put the effort into the mission builder to assign them commands every klick of the way. The AI that you can fly with, though...they've regressed IMO.

The IL-2 series, which was great offline at one time, has turned more into an online sim. It's lost quite a bit offline since it's inception. Maybe that's the will of the mob, I don't know. But offline, it's taken a turn for the worse as far as I'm concerned.

[sapre]

AI doesn't have to be exactly like human.
It only has to look like human.
Did you ever played Mig Alley?
That has the best AI in history of flight sim.
After they Boom, they immidiatley zoom, attacking as a squadron, and RTBing after several attacks.
Is it so difficult to make a script or something for the AI to set the maximum number of A/C that can be destroyed before squadron leader giving a order to RTB?
Or set the number of how many attack is to made and after that number of attack squadron leader giving a order to RTB?
Olso the thing I don't like is AI enemy that chases me all the way, back to my base.
Is it possible to add a script or something that when the chasing AI enemy reaches the frontline(Blue and Red lines on the map) that he turns back?
Is it so difficult?

[sapre]

I really never seen any AI strictly doing a BnZ...
I still see P38 doing a vertical and horizontal dogfight against a Zero.

[VW-IceFire]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sapre:
I really never seen any AI strictly doing a BnZ...
I still see P38 doing a vertical and horizontal dogfight against a Zero. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Funny...I still see plenty of human opponents online doing the exact same thing http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Gambler, I've noticed some of that behavior once or twice but it may have more to do with mission design then with the AI (except for the wingman thing). But it seems to have been rare since I installed the game...I've found myself being helped by the AI more often than before. Often quite successfully (like the time I had 3 N1K's on my tail and two Hellcats peeled in and blew them away).

I don't think its regressed but somethings don't work as well as before. Thats AI for you...

[TheEngine88]

I watched a B-24 lazily spiral down into the trees, two engines on fire, the other day, tail and turret gunners firing all the way down. The failure of AI crews to bail from crippled aircraft has still not been addressed, it would seem.

[arrow80]

Icefire: agreed, AI is better than ever before. Now I am playing Fw190 DGEn campaign, and my squad really uses some sort of BnZ tactics with great success, as you described. In last three missions we had only one cassaulty and shot down 30 Enemy Yak's, La's and I-16's...and this is with the setting: CampaignAI=Hard. They are also often quite helpfull if I am in a trouble. Also enemy is more dangerous, may deflection shoot, so I have to pay more attention and be carefull...I am really very satisfied with the current state of AI. Just to implement some RTB's due great cassaulties and we are again one step forward. PF AI's is certainly the best I've seen and I know how hard is to make a good AI, as I've graduated last year in this branch at our tech. university.

[SeaFireLIV]

Too many Whys, too many Wants from the 1st poster. Not enough flying the sim. Listen to Icefire. AI`s B&Z, especially LW on Eastern front and more...

Also why shouldn`t AI chase you back to base if it`s safe enough to do so? I`ve had people online do it when they`re really angry and really want to get you. Maybe this AI is really mad aND WANTS REVENGE! And they do RTB quite a lot, I`ve had it happen at the Pacific and on the Eastern Front. But the odd times they chase you all the way is what makes it more REAL! There`s nothing wrong with that!

OLEG DID NOT LIE.

[LEXX_Luthor]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I watched a B-24 lazily spiral down into the trees, two engines on fire, the other day, tail and turret gunners firing all the way down. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sometimes this happens and when it does its realistic. Don't have link but there is long read about Spitfire pilots in The Meds where Ju~88 gunner fired all the way to crash into sea (Med). Turns out the Ju~88 gunners gave Spit pilots a bad time. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[13sqGambler]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I've noticed some of that behavior once or twice but it may have more to do with mission design then with the AI (except for the wingman thing). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The wingman thing is something I seen 90% of the time I fly offline. The only time I fly custom made missions is online, with others, and that takes the AI out of the equation. This occurance is from in-game missions. Maybe it's just me, but the AI don't seem as "I" as they were in 2.04. I get a lot of "Unable" now when I tell them to engage, especially ground targets. And I'm well within range of them being able to "see" the target(s). Maybe they don't want to try to fly into all that flak either and aren't as dumb as I think... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I watched a B-24 lazily spiral down into the trees, two engines on fire, the other day, tail and turret gunners firing all the way down. The failure of AI crews to bail from crippled aircraft has still not been addressed, it would seem. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While this is a problem, I don't think it's anything as bad as the ones people have with their wingmen or fellow members of their flight or strike package. Not to sound cruel or anything towards the AI bomber crews, but their not bailing out doesn't bother me no where near as much as my wingman's ineptness does.

I'm hoping the routines are better in 3.01M...here's to hoping anyway... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

[LANCER25]

I agree that the ai needs an overhall. Has anyone ever recorded a mission just to see what the ai squadron is doing or how they died? I've been curious in a few missions and watched as my squadron CO simply flew into a mountain after a fight. He wasn't even hit.

How about issuing commands to those who are supposed to be under your command. When flying bombing missions in my wildcat campaign I watch repeatedly the number 3 and 4 members peel off to attack bad guys(without being told to do so) jettisoning their bombs in the process. All while we were SUPPOSED to have another squadron escorting us!

Is anyone else sick of telling guys to attack something and being told "unable." I find this more common when telling them to attack ground targets. It usually will work when you are only on top of the target(your busiest workload i.e. trying to hit the target yourself.)

I've also watched many times my wingman simply flying behind a bad guy or past him when the that bad guy is trying to kill me. He will only say "HOLD ON I GOT IT" if the guy shoots at me. The hell he's got it!

I love watching the guys saying "I'm taking hits" AFTER they've panacaked themselves into a mountainhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Anyway i'm sure there is more but those are my biggest headaches. I'm also very hopeful that these are being addressed.

[Gato__Loco]

Overhall??? Do you mean overhaul? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

[13sqGambler]

I wouldn't say an overhaul...I think it needs tweaking back towards the direction 2.04 had taken more than an overhaul.

In 2.04, the AI were much more responsive to given commands...at least here they were. The AI have come a long way since IL-2 was released and they're still the best in any prop sim I've ever played as far as the depth you can control them at.

At least when they listen... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[sapre]

Sorry folks, but I still can't see any change in AI in PF.
Wildcat, Buffalo, P47, P38 doing a tight turn and stall maneuver to evade, AI not fighting back on its way back to base, AI dropping bombs when sighting a enemy, enemy following you back to anywhere.

[sapre]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 13sqGambler:
I wouldn't say an overhaul...I think it needs tweaking back towards the direction 2.04 had taken more than an overhaul.

In 2.04, the AI were much more responsive to given commands...at least here they were. The AI have come a long way since IL-2 was released and they're still the best in any prop sim I've ever played as far as the depth you can control them at.

At least when they listen... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ever played European Air War?
I think that, with couple of mods, has a better AI then IL2.
And it's not a prop sim, but you got to try the Mig Alley.
It has the best AI in history of flight sim. Period.

[heywooood]

...the AI in this sim is a W.I.P.


in fact, due to the ongoing developement and expansion shown thus far by Oleg and 1c - I dont get this bitter critique at all.

Have you not seen?...have you not then learned from what you have seen, padawan learner?

...they pay attention to valid, well supported observations and make corrections...all the time. And Oleg has said that will not stop, even after BoB is released.

[13sqGambler]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Have you not seen?...have you not then learned from what you have seen, padawan learner?

...they pay attention to valid, well supported observations and make corrections...all the time. And Oleg has said that will not stop, even after BoB is released.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can save track after track and send it to Oleg and Co. is about all. And the response can be anything from "You're right, we'll look into it." to "They act that way at certian times in certian situations in certian conditions." I can't make colorful graphs, showing the performance of the AI from IL-2 to FB to PF in relation to real world data on wingmen and strike packages.

AI routines aren't like ballistic information on weapons or flight model specifications. There's not a tangible benchmark that you can cross-reference them to. AI routines aren't something that you can't compare historical data with. They are supposed to do a certian thing...at a certian time. And since PF came out, they're doing those things less and less.

While they have progressed throughout the development of the series, as I said before, they have regressed a bit in the release of PF IMO.

I fly a lot offline in campaigns...have since IL-2 came out. I've seen the AI come a long way. I think they can come a lot farther, though.

[heywooood]

Yes...it is in constant developement, and I think many mods were made to AI to incorporate carrier ops. Maybe some of these changes caused other issues to crop up or some 'regression' in the AI performance.

The 1c has maintained open communication with this community throughout the developement of these sims and I dont see that changeing.

Sure - it would be nice to see constant improvement and I believe that is their goal, but we just got a major overhaul in a very short time frame so there were bound to be drawbacks and performance hits... bugs.

the first patch will tell us alot about how PF would have been released without UBI interference...and subsequent patches will make this a great PTO sim and FB/AEP will be that much better as well.

[13sqGambler]

I've never said that this isn't a great series. I've never said that Oleg and Co. don't support their products like no other developer. I also think that after the patching sequences are done, PF will be on par with the prior series.

But all of that still doesn't change the fact that the AI aren't improved overall in PF when compared to the version before PF.

It's not my fault, nor anyone else's that bought the game, that Ubi rushed Oleg out the door with PF. It is my right IMO as a consumer, however, to point out that a feature in the game isn't up to par with the previous versions. That's what I was doing.

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Czunik]

There seems to be some real BUGS in AI, especialy in my autopilot. I've seen autopilot:
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Raising gear while preparing to carrier takeoff .. especially fighters with bombs. All wingmen mimick this .. result - one great explosion. When I take-off manualy, everything is fine.
<LI>bad handling while low speed, low altitude .. example: I take off from carrier, raise gear, close canopy .. airspeed about 200 kmh .. plane flies just right without touching controls .. turn autopilot on .. maximum pull, critical AOA, stall, crash.
<LI>sleeping. Especially with A20 and B25, sometimes when I turn autipilot on, nothing hapens for seconds .. plane flies shallow descending spiral .. nothing like trying to level and point to next waypoint at all ! Sometimes it takes about 30 sec till the autopilot 'wakes up'. Sometimes he manages to develop hard-to-solve situation like low altitude during this 'sleeping', which leads to crash.
<LI>crashing into hills. Everybody knows it.
<LI>On the other hand, noone can recover from spin like my autopilot .. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/88.gif
[/list]
The air-combat AI could be better .. especialy deflection shooting and energy figting. Average pilot should hit from 300 metres pursuit .. or at least should not empty all guns 1 metr left of the target. Even average fw190 (not mentioning p38,p47) pilot should avoid turn&burn.
I think flying energy fighter with brutal weapons (like fw190) is the most fun.
The AI gives me hard times (sometimes) anyway, so I don't mind this too much and yes, aces are much more 'sofisticated'.

[Jaws2002]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sapre:
I'm getting tired watching wildcats and buffalos doing stall maneuver to evade,
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's exactly what the American pilots did untill they studied the zero. They were trying to turnfight.

[TonyEH]

Sapre, you're absolutely correct about the AI in FB/PF. But I don't think anything will ever really be done with it.

I am blue in the face asking for improvements to the AI on this forum an on the SIMHQ forum too, but not one member of the Dev Team has responded to my comments so far in the last two topics I raised.

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=507102065

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=26310365&m=475109006&r=835106806#835106806

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=26310365&m=6201082042&r=2401033042#2401033042

Oleg answered some of my questions in a topic I raised ages at the beginning of the year. But it went nowhere.

I have suggested several times to do the following to make the combat element of FB/PF far more interesting.

1. Make the AI fly their aircraft at their top speed when in combat mode.

2. Make the different level of AI "lose" sight of the enemy aircraft at different lengths. 2km for "Rookie", 3km for "Average", 4km for "veteran" and 5km for "ace". The reason for this is that it would simulate the break in combat that real life fighter aircraft did. In other words by reducing the AI's length of sight they will turn and regroup with their leader instaed of chasing yoy or you AI wingmates for miles and miles across the maps and would go some way to eliminating the riciculous turn in circles til all of one side is dead fiasco that EVERY combat encounter results in.

3. make the AI RTB if their six is clear and they have a bit of damage, even a small bit. Get them out of there, like a real person would in combat.

4. When the order for "regrouping" is given, make the AI regroup at their absolute top speed. The AI don't overheat so thats not a factor. And it would eliminate the stupid situation whereby your AI wingmen are shot down by I-16's because they regroup in such a leisurely manner, while you are trying to hightail it out of an undisirable situation. This would also allow the player to disengage his squad and use their speed to get out of a battle situation. As it stands we have fast flying 109F's getting shot down by I-16's because they won't fly at speed to regroup with you(their leader) who has disengaged and is trying to gain distance between your squad and the enemy while RTB.

All of the above are doable "fixes" for the AI and would improve combat and the disegagement from combat immensely. It would also reduce the sill loss rate that squads (on both sides) suufer in the game. Another thing is it would allow the fast flying planes to use their advantage against the slower flying turning aircraft.

Running away at speed is the only thing the AI/FM in this game will allow to help the b'n'z planes to survive, as the AI is exclusively designed to turn fight.

Tony