Upgrades through gained experience

[Zamolxis108]

Upgrades through gained experience. How does it sound?

An older idea of mine, posted on other forums as well. Anyway they were using the word "training" in Heroes III, when they were talking about upgrades. Anyway, when a hero finds a treasure chest, he's asked to chose between taking the money or using them for training (experience). If the heroes gain experience from both paying for training and battles, why wouldn't the creatures do the same? Why only by investing in upgrading in creature dwellings? That's alright. If you can aford to "train" them at the castle, and recruit them already upgraded, it's ok. But why would a creature that had only "theoretical training" at the caste, be any better than the one you recruited in the first days, and fought many succesful battles by your side, gaining a lot of "practical experience"?

This will also save us from those otherwise pointless trips back to the castle, just to upgrade some creature in the army, after upgrading their dwelling. It would be cool, after a certain number of battles, to get after one of them the message: "For special valor in combat, your cavaliers have been upgraded to champions!" (or smth like that)

[Salventus]

I think the creatures should learn from the Heroe's experience since this is a heroe's game but they should also have a little room from fighting on the battlefield experience. There is a topic I think called "stack experience" I think you should check it out. But most of the experience the creatures gain should come from the Hero.

[Zamolxis108]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Salventus:
... There is a topic I think called "stack experience" ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Search result for "stack experience": The search is complete. No matches were found. (even though I also remembered smb talking about stack experience here, but maybe I'm confusing with other forums I'm browsing in the meantime).

Anyway, this thread deals with the idea of an alternative (and I would say pretty logic) way of obtaining upgrades. I'm not talking about a WoG type of gained experience, where the same creature gets new abilities in time (I also love that one), but about upgrading, which, among others, will save us from that trip back home, with no other purpose than this.

LE: using Advanced Search I managed to find it (donno why normal search didn't), but I see they were discussing there smth else (the WoG idea of stack experience).

[UndeadDontDie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zamolxis108:
Anyway, this thread deals with the idea of an alternative (and I would say pretty logic) way of obtaining upgrades. I'm not talking about a WoG type of gained experience, where the same creature gets new abilities in time (I also love that one), but about upgrading, which, among others, will save us from that trip back home, with no other purpose than this.

LE: using Advanced Search I managed to find it (donno why normal search didn't), but I see they were discussing there smth else (the WoG idea of stack experience). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But the main problem stays the same, how do you manage the unit expirience when you combine or seperate stacks?
Would two cavaliers close to upgrading suddenly lost their training because fresh recruites joined?
Or maybe expirience should be kept for each unit in each stack? Besides the obvious burden on the PCU it can cause a lot of trouble where two cavaliers are suddenly champions while there are 12 regular cavaliers left and no room in the hero's army.
Expirience is a good idea, even for armies, but not in HoMM.

[NECRO95]

All of you could try playing the Wake of God Mod for Homm3. They did a pretty decent and interesting job implementing the stack experience upgrades for the different creatures. Heck, they even went as far as creating new creature like a Blood Dragon (Bone Dragon upgrade with vampire ability), its really cool!

[Fidanas]

I put the following idea to the "Creatures Upgrades" thread:

I would like a totally different system upgrade.
-Yes, upgrade the creature dwelling, but...
-You recruit the creature in its initial state, and then...
-If the Hero (here's the new idea), is qualified with the proper level of experience, then the creature should be able to gain the upgrade right away as it joins his army.
-If not (or if the upgraded structure isn't built yet) the creatures remain in their initial state.
With this system, we will be able to upgrade a dwelling several times. Each time, the upgrade provided by the dwelling will be accessible on higher Heros level.
How about that?

[Zamolxis108]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by UndeadDontDie:
Expirience is a good idea, even for armies, but not in HoMM. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It works pretty well in WoG, without killing the CPU. And there we even have 10 "levels" (ranks as they call it if I'm not wrong) the creatures can reach.

If new recruits join, the experience can be re-allocated. If 10 new cavaliers join a stack of 10 more experienced ones, it is to be expected the new stack won't fight as efficient as double the experienced one, but also not so "clumsy" as a newly recruited one. This will also prevent the splitting of a stack in two, if only a part of them would be to be upgraded. Basically would be like in WoG, but replacing all those ranks, with the simple upgrade (it would be even more simple then WoG, but more practical than the old upgrading system).

[Zamolxis108]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fidanas:
With this system, we will be able to upgrade a dwelling several times. Each time, the upgrade provided by the dwelling will be accessible on higher Heros level.
How about that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
What you say it's like you want progressive, multiple upgrades. I don't think it's the case to talk about this, as it's pretty clear from the first sketches (I may be wrong though), that we will have a simple upgrading system (H2/H3 style), with one (maximum 2) upgrades per creature. I don't think we're going to have 7 types of angels, 5 types of ogres, 6 of demons and so on. I also think with your system you'll get many times stuck when it comes to recruiting on the adventure map, troop trading between your heroes and so on.

[UndeadDontDie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zamolxis108:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by UndeadDontDie:
Expirience is a good idea, even for armies, but not in HoMM. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It works pretty well in WoG, without killing the CPU. And there we even have 10 "levels" (ranks as they call it if I'm not wrong) the creatures can reach.

If new recruits join, the experience can be re-allocated. If 10 new cavaliers join a stack of 10 more experienced ones, it is to be expected the new stack won't fight as efficient as double the experienced one, but also not so "clumsy" as a newly recruited one. This will also prevent the splitting of a stack in two, if only a part of them would be to be upgraded. Basically would be like in WoG, but replacing all those ranks, with the simple upgrade (it would be even more simple then WoG, but more practical than the old upgrading system). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, you should exactly what I posted, it kills the CPU only if you keep expirience individually (more of a RAM killer now that I think about it =P).
But a system where expirience is shared doesn't make sense (thematically), how much sense does it make that just because a veteran soldier stands around fresh recruits he suddenly becomes stupid and the fresh recruites are now more seasoned?
I never played WOG so I don't know exactly how it works, but it just sounds horrible.

[vladww]

The way experience was handled in WoG is the best by far.
Why change something that was close to perfection ?

[Zamolxis108]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by UndeadDontDie:
a system where expirience is shared doesn't make sense (thematically), how much sense does it make that just because a veteran soldier stands around fresh recruits he suddenly becomes stupid and the fresh recruites are now more seasoned?
I never played WOG so I don't know exactly how it works, but it just sounds horrible. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In fact it makes a lot of sense. The creatures function in stacks (as a collective), not individual (like heroes). As I explained above, if you have a veteran & a freshy in the same stack, it's actually very much logic that the stack (as a whole) will function like two creatures with the same experience, each having half or the experience of our veteran. It's less logic to expect a freshy & a veteran to be as bad as two freshies.

If you never played WoG, you should deffinetly do it before judging it. The stack experience is smth I was also affraid when I heard about it, but it works brilliantly. The only real disadvantage of WoG (for those who played it), is the fact that if any of the cool features there http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/11.gif won't be implemented in Heroes (hear Ubi/Nival http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), those who know them would be disappointed (and those telling us: "It wouldn't have worked" have no chance to convince us 'cause, unlike them, we've already seen it working).

[UndeadDontDie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zamolxis108:
In fact it makes a lot of sense. The creatures function in stacks (as a collective), not individual (like heroes). As I explained above, if you have a veteran & a freshy in the same stack, it's actually very much logic that the stack (as a whole) will function like two creatures with the same experience, each having half or the experience of our veteran. It's less logic to expect a freshy & a veteran to be as bad as two freshies. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It makes a lot of sense for the combined stack to fight less effectively, but it doesnt make sense that just because he fights alongside "Freshies" a veteran unit will suddenly become dumb and need to regain expirience to get an upgrade it was eligible for if it wasnt combined with the "Freshies".

[Zamolxis108]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by UndeadDontDie:
It makes a lot of sense for the combined stack to fight less effectively, but it doesnt make sense that just because he fights alongside "Freshies" a veteran unit will suddenly become dumb and need to regain expirience to get an upgrade it was eligible for if it wasnt combined with the "Freshies". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In a way you are right, but what you say would matter in a game where creatures cound as individuals. In Heroes they only count as stacks. If you don't like the explanation with Stack (stack!!! not creature) Experience = the avarage experience of all creatures in the stack, then just exept it as the only way this feature can be implemented, which basically has a lot of logic - the battle experience having an influence in time over also the creatures (A hero is wise enough to learn a lot, but why wouldn't any other creature, no matter how dumb it is, ever learn smth?).

There should be some logic behind things, but we shouldn't go so much in detail when we talk about a fantasy game. What's the logic of a Level 1 hero advancing 5 levels (or how many they are), if he's just lucky to have 100 archangels in his army, and 1000 troglodytes guarding a mine. The archangels kill the troglodytes from the first strike, the here did nothing (spells, battle strategy etc), and still advances 5 levels. Not everything is 100% logic, but some (as my proposal) are practically useful.

Was I the only one who found a 5 days trip back home just to upgrade your behemoths stupid & boring?

[Val-Gaav]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Was I the only one who found a 5 days trip back home just to upgrade your behemoths stupid & boring? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
then how about leaving an upgrade in city and in combat ... ??
We have 5 bahemoths when they gain enough experience they become ancient behemoths and gain no more experience .....
Still you can buy an upgrade in a city and upgrade them for cash ....
This would also be a good strategic part of a game ... Is it better to buy non upgraded behemoths for 2000 gold (and gain upgrade through combat) or buy upgraded ones for 5000 ???
Needless to say that Ancient behemoths couldn't be combined with normal behemots ..

This is the only way I can accept creatures exp in HoMM ...

As for the WoG personaly I didn't like the stack experience system in this add-on .

[UndeadDontDie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Val-Gaav:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Was I the only one who found a 5 days trip back home just to upgrade your behemoths stupid & boring? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
then how about leaving an upgrade in city and in combat ... ??
We have 5 bahemoths when they gain enough experience they become ancient behemoths and gain no more experience .....
Still you can buy an upgrade in a city and upgrade them for cash ....
This would also be a good strategic part of a game ... Is it better to buy non upgraded behemoths for 2000 gold (and gain upgrade through combat) or buy upgraded ones for 5000 ???
Needless to say that Ancient behemoths couldn't be combined with normal behemots ..

This is the only way I can accept creatures exp in HoMM ...

As for the WoG personaly I didn't like the stack experience system in this add-on . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your idea is still "guilty" of the same flaws Ive mentioned before...
Anyway, to avoid having to go all the way back to your town to upgrades your units you can:
1) Get a carrier hero to take the units back and forth (its an effective way of managing your army anyway, otherwise how would your hero be reinforced?)
2) Play on maps with many Hill Forts (I think that's how they're called) where you can upgrade your units.
I agree that its kind of a mess to upgrade your units, but your suggestions are a bigger mess (IMO).

[Zamolxis108]

http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by UndeadDontDie:
Your idea is still "guilty" of the same flaws Ive mentioned before...
Anyway, to avoid having to go all the way back to your town to upgrades your units you can:
1) Get a carrier hero to take the units back and forth (its an effective way of managing your army anyway, otherwise how would your hero be reinforced?)
2) Play on maps with many Hill Forts (I think that's how they're called) where you can upgrade your units.
I agree that its kind of a mess to upgrade your units, but your suggestions are a bigger mess (IMO). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think if previous Heroes games would have used the upgrading system through battle experience, and somebody would have come now with the idea of replacing that with just "filling" the map with Hill Forts (as you say) or with limiting the upgrading possibilities only to towns and the use of "carriers", you'd have been (together with many others, more then those opposing the idea here) shouting: "WHAT A STUPID IDEA!"

The "strategies" you're proposing me are well known by everybody. I was just trying to improve the system. And the carrier it's not always the best sollution. Sometimes you can be pretty short in resources. Who will buy then a carrier instead of upgrading 2 of his behemoths?

[Campaigner_1st]

This topic made me think of Disciples II. There stack experience works great eventhough the game is bad (opposite to deep). I haven't played WoG, but stack experience could be accepted as a feature in a Heroes V WoG, but not in the original game.

[Zamolxis108]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Campaigner_1st:
... but stack experience could be accepted as a feature in a Heroes V WoG, but not in the original game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I strongly doubt we'll see such a game. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Do you even know what WoG is?

[Omega_Destroyer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>This topic made me think of Disciples II. There stack experience works great eventhough the game is bad (opposite to deep). I haven't played WoG, but stack experience could be accepted as a feature in a Heroes V WoG, but not in the original game. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny, I just got done beating the Elven campaign for Disciples 2. The stack experience feature in that game works great. Had some units up to level 31 by the end of the campaign. It would be nice to see a system like that implemented in Heroes 5, instead of the instant upgrades. It might make a bit more sense; as in completely changing your appearance and gaining new abilities in the span of a day. However, it is a fantasy game and they don't always need to make sense, so I just defeated my own arguement.