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Conniving_Eagle
06-07-2011, 05:40 PM
I posted a thread about this before, but I get the feeling people weren't understanding what I meant. Now, thanks to the new trailer, I can hopefully explain it better. Here is the link to my original thread if you haven't read it:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/foru...1069024/m/2451059829 (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/2451059829)

Here is the link to the trailer:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...z&list=FL6R3z5b7K1fI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K39UWxdm0U&feature=mh_lolz&list=FL6R3z5b7K1fI)

Now, if you didn't read the thread, I will sum it up for you. In each game, they've renovated the combat system. In AC2, you could disarm enemies, and it had alot of new killing animations thanks to the increased weapon variety. In AC:B they added kill chains. Personally, I beleive that kill-chains were a step-backward because the way they were programmed made the game's action incredibly repetetive and easy. Here is how they can 'Innovate the Combat System'

This time around, we can make the combat system new and exciting again by add a game-mechanic/ability where you can counter-kill more than one enemy by having the option to perform another counter-kill within that original counter-kill.

Here's how the game-mechanic would function - When you performed a counter-kill, more often than not, a button config would appear. I'm talking about the same one that appeared in the cutscenes in AC2, and the Bourne Conspiracy(if you played that); the difference being that the game would not slow down or stop. On the config, one or more of the buttons(A,B,X, maybe Y) would be highlighted. If you successfully hit the button before the config disappeared, Ezio would perform another counter or counter-kill. If you failed, Ezio would either just perform the counter-kill on the single gaurd, or get hit by another gaurd, interrupting his original counter-kill. The config wouldn't appear for a split second though, I'm thinking somewhere between 1 and 2 seconds, make it good mix between difficult and easy. There are some examples in the video, I will list them for you.

1:13 - 1:18 Ezio jumps over one gaurd and disarms the next.

1:18 - 1:20 Ezio disarms the first gaurd, then he kills the second gaurd. After countering and disarming the first gaurd, pressing X on the config would activate the animation to kill the second gaurd.

1:20 - 1:25 Ezio counters the first gaurd, he is about to disarm him, but then another gaurd attacks. He takes the gaurds sword, and directs it to parry the other gaurd's attack. Then he kicks the second gaurd away, and finishes off the other gaurd. This could be triggered by pressing A on the config, because he kicked the gaurd away(A = feet) instead of killing him too( X = armed hand). In this scenario, if a button wasn't pressed, the gaurd would have slashed Ezio, Ezio wouldn't have disarmed the first gaurd, and he would lose some health.

1:25 - 1:32 After counter-killing the first gaurd(Ezio snapped his neck), a second gaurd comes up and grabs him from behind. As another gaurd is about to attack Ezio, he breaks the gaurds hold of him and gets out of the away, the second gaurd gets killed by his own comrad. To finish it off Ezio ruffles up the third guard a little with a headbutt and knee to this face. This animation could've been done by pressing B on the Config, as B has been used to break an enemy grabs.

There's a couple more examples, but I think you get the idea. Those were just Ezio's unarmed attacks, I can give you a quick example for other weapons like Swords. Ezio stabs one gaurd, he turns around, rips it out and slices the gaurd who was about to attack him in the neck.

In short, this is how the config icon would work.

'X' which represents your armed hand, would kill the second gaurd. 'A' which represents your legs, would dodge an attack, or stun an enemy by performing a kicking attack. Dodging an attack might also get one of the gaurds you were fighting killed. 'B' which represents your empty hand, would break a gaurd's hold on you(again, possibly getting him killed), use a gaurd as a human shield, or throw a gaurd away.

The config won't always appear will performing a counter-kill, though. 75% of the time it would appear, 50% of the time you would have to hit a high-lighted button to avoid being hit, and 25% of the time pressing it wouldn't be necesary. Sometimes, more than one highlighted button would appear. You could have the option to hit either A or B, or X and A. You would explore it just to see the cool new combat animations.

One last thing, something needs to be done about kill-Chains. I think kill-chains should only allow you to get a max of 2-4 kills. They were very overpowered in AC:B. All you had to do was counter a kill, and begin a kill-chain. If you were good, you could kill +10 gaurds because you were allowed to perform a counter-kill in the middle of a kill-chain animation. This is why Brotherhood got boring, it was exactly the same, and very easy. After the new animations got old, of coure. With this 'Double Counter' idea implemented, to begin a kill-chain you would have to kill an enemy offensively. You would be able to block an attack if you were in the middle of a kill-chain, but you would not be able to perform a counter-attack, this way your kill-chain would be interrupted.

My 'Double Counter' idea is very good because it would Re-innovate the combat system as Ubisoft tries to do each game, it would add tons, maybe hundreds of cool, gory, and badass animations, making combat very new and refreshing. Combat would even be more diverse because offensive and defensive combat would be so different, but both being effective ways to clear an area.

Thoughts? Other Ideas? And please, I am pushing for this because I love the AC sereies, it is my favorite franchise. I was let-down a little by AC:B and I don't want this franchise to become one of those repetetive, the same thing re-done each year type of games. I only ask that you comment on this discussion and come back to reply to other comments so that Ubisoft can notice this thread. They're read it if its one of the most discussed.

P.S. They did not show this in the demo, which is why I'm concerned they didn't implement it into the game.

crash3
06-07-2011, 06:13 PM
i like the counter within counter idea, i agree with wat you say, i hope the actual combat gameplay lives up to what we saw on the masyaf trailer especially since we see ezio actually get overwhelmed for the first time i really hope ezio meets his match in ACR where he has to call in assistance or flee for his life

i think ACB sorted all the offensive moves, now there needs to be more defensive moves
i think you should time your parry moves so you tap R1 (ps3) as the guard/s attacks instead of just holding down R1 to deflect

i was a little concerned that seeming that most people in this forum have asked for more challenging gameplay in both stealth and combat, we didnt really see any of that in the E3 demo, ezio owned all of the guards he encountered no matter wat armour or weapons the guards had, they all died the same and ezio just walked straight at them with no sense of stealth

Conniving_Eagle
06-07-2011, 06:24 PM
Yeah, about the demo part, that's why I'm a little worried/skeptical. As for blocking. I put in the original thread that gaurds should be able to perform a defense-break on you, more often with the stronger gaurds like Brutes and Seekers. That way you can't be holding down the block button the whole time you fight enemies. Not necessarily before they're about to attack, but you should be allowed to hold it 2-3 seconds before they're about to attack, atleast with the bigger gaurds. The other post talks a little bit more about making combat more challenging.

tjbyrum1
06-07-2011, 06:41 PM
Personally... I liked the Kill Streaks. I mean, sure they DID make the game easier (no denying that) but it also made it much more cooler. Not a good excuse, but meh.

You see, I think we should keep the Kill Streaks - but fix them.

Like.... having to kill a certain amount of guards first in order to charge up the amount of 'Streak' we have, and then you can use a Kill Streak - instead of being able to use it all the time. Or like, have where buttons flash above enemies heads that you have to press at the right time to kill him.

Just something to help limit/redo the Kill Streaks. Everything else is perfectly fine - and why fix what ain't broken?

crash3
06-08-2011, 06:52 AM
i think mthere should be combat streaks and not killstreaks, no guard should die from one hit

i likedthe moves in ACB with the borgia captains and cesare himself where you just clashed swords during a streak

every guard should be able to at least, counter, grab, and dodge

more elite guards would be able to counter grab and break your defense and have more lethal counters

for example a militia guard may counter you by parrying your attack then punching/kicking you
an elte guard may parry or dodge then slash your arm or leg without you being able to react in time

Crouching.Tiger
06-08-2011, 07:11 AM
The "double counter" idea is very good. I remember it made sword fighting so much more intense (and realistic!) already in the boss fights of the original Prince of Persia, back in 1989. Then, in Prince of Persia: Sands of Time, it was one of the few ways you could kill the most powerful enemies. Very good.

daniel_gervide
06-08-2011, 07:43 AM
i've never said the idea was bad, i just said that before they INNOVATE the already created combat system i think that they should BALANCE it...

If they can BALANCE it and INNOVATE at the same time than i'm ok... but INNOVATING the combat system keeping it UNBALANCED as it's now would suck like or more than the AcB innovating combat system...

Crash, i think that the killstreaks against guards that are with guards down (not paying attention) should be one hit (or 2 hits with sword/dagger and 1 hit with hidden blade, making the hidden blade system a mixture of ac1 and brotherhood), for guards that are paying attention, the first hit after killing one guard WITH COMBO OR COUNTER should be stronger, maybe if a papal-like guard usually parry your attack, if you do it after a kill, the "papal" guard shouldn't parry you, instead he would block the attack but not making ezio stop fighting for like 1 second..

Hope you understand what i say...

For the more-live combat, i agree with everything...

Also, if you notice, at the start ezio assassinates one guard with the hidden blade with the Ac1 move, i think it's an hint about the "downgraded" system of the hidden blade, but now, if you do a counter-strike with hidden blade maybe sometimes he will do counter-strike with hands and other times with the hidden blade...

Have any1 understand the music of the trailer (or read the lyrics)? it fits so good in the trailer *.*

oOAltairOo
06-08-2011, 08:38 AM
It's spelled guard not gaurd...

lukaszep
06-08-2011, 08:52 AM
I think kill streaks encouraged you to kill more, and engage in open combat more, which isn't how i see Assassins Creed as being, which is why i try to avoid it. If it was feesable, maybe they could implement difficulty levels before you start the game that uses a different combat system?

itsamea-mario
06-08-2011, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by crash3:
i think mthere should be combat streaks and not killstreaks, no guard should die from one hit

i likedthe moves in ACB with the borgia captains and cesare himself where you just clashed swords during a streak

every guard should be able to at least, counter, grab, and dodge

more elite guards would be able to counter grab and break your defense and have more lethal counters

for example a militia guard may counter you by parrying your attack then punching/kicking you
an elte guard may parry or dodge then slash your arm or leg without you being able to react in time

But if that one hit was a sword to the throat then they would die.

There don't seem to be any new sword animations so far, not that we've seen many, but there do seem to be more hidden blade ones.

As for the OP, i'm not sure.

Conniving_Eagle
06-08-2011, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by oOAltairOo:
It's spelled guard not gaurd...

Whatever, bro. I think my grammar is good enough for a foreigner.

Conniving_Eagle
06-08-2011, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by daniel_gervide:
i've never said the idea was bad, i just said that before they INNOVATE the already created combat system i think that they should BALANCE it...

If they can BALANCE it and INNOVATE at the same time than i'm ok... but INNOVATING the combat system keeping it UNBALANCED as it's now would suck like or more than the AcB innovating combat system...

Crash, i think that the killstreaks against guards that are with guards down (not paying attention) should be one hit (or 2 hits with sword/dagger and 1 hit with hidden blade, making the hidden blade system a mixture of ac1 and brotherhood), for guards that are paying attention, the first hit after killing one guard WITH COMBO OR COUNTER should be stronger, maybe if a papal-like guard usually parry your attack, if you do it after a kill, the "papal" guard shouldn't parry you, instead he would block the attack but not making ezio stop fighting for like 1 second..

Hope you understand what i say...

For the more-live combat, i agree with everything...

Also, if you notice, at the start ezio assassinates one guard with the hidden blade with the Ac1 move, i think it's an hint about the "downgraded" system of the hidden blade, but now, if you do a counter-strike with hidden blade maybe sometimes he will do counter-strike with hands and other times with the hidden blade...

Have any1 understand the music of the trailer (or read the lyrics)? it fits so good in the trailer *.* I did suggest how to balance it though, in the other thread, too. For kill-chains, you shouldn't be able to perform counters while in the middle of a kill-chain. The guards usually attack you after you kill 2-4 of them. If you wanted to milk it and not lose health, you could block the attack, but the blocking time would be very quick, like AC 1 hidden blade counter-kill quick. Because of the double-counter mechanic, you couldn't start a kill-chain by counter-killing a guard, you would have to kill them offensively, or I think someone said they need to be distracted, so if you killed a gaurd who was spinning his sword or shifting his feet you could start the kill-chain. It would open up two different ways of fighting. You could play defensively, and kill only 1-2 gaurds at a time. Or you could play offensively, killing 2-4 at a time, but you would have to be a little more cautious not to get hit, and successfully kill a gaurd by attackting them.

Other than that, enemies need to be more intelligent, and the counter times need to be lowered. By counter times I mean the amount of time you're allowed to perform a counter before an enemy attacks you to pull it off. In brotherhood, they made the times longer. For swords and daggers we need to go back to the AC1 times(they weren't terribly hard, just reasonable) and for unarmed and hidden blade counters we would need to go back to the AC2 times which were also reasonable. Gaurds should have the ability to counter attacks like they did in AC1. Each would have a % possible chance of countering you, defense breaking you, or dodging you're attack. Here's a brainstorm of it.

Templars/Bosses
50% defense break
30% dodge
30% counter

Seekers/Brutes

40% defense break
5% dodge
20% counter

Agiles

10% defense break
35% dodge
15% counter

Normal Guards

10% everything

daniel_gervide
06-08-2011, 01:22 PM
lyrics from the music of the trailer:

"I want to feel the pain and the bitter taste
Of the blood on my lips, again"

Hmmm, interesting no?

AMuppetMatt
06-08-2011, 02:09 PM
You saying this is a precursor for harder combat, Dan?
Not a chance XD

daniel_gervide
06-08-2011, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by AMuppetMatt:
You saying this is a precursor for harder combat, Dan?
Not a chance XD

Well, it would be an hint... ubisoft is crazy making hints... I loved the music from the trailer but i think the trailer is not true AcR... it looks more Ac1-ish than Ac2/B-ish... let's hope the game feels more like Ac1 xD

Also the music gives more Ac1 feeling (apart from that part of the music which resembles the start of Ac2)

about2xplode
06-08-2011, 02:43 PM
I believe that since AC has always had mapped buttons to body parts, and specific actions. When having a counter-kill, or even possibly a combat chain. Whatever button you press during the small amount of time given to you when you preform the kill, should be the next action you preform on the next guard. Ex: The X button could be mapped to you're feet and preform kicks and whatnot. Then the Square button could be mapped to you're weapon. Then etc. etc...

I think that this would allow the combatant to have more freedom and choices when in combat, and give him more power than just an automatically triggered computer animation that you did nothing to choose.

Conniving_Eagle
06-08-2011, 04:39 PM
It's the same thing but for Xbox. Left Button = grab/defense break Down = pickpocket/free run Right = Assassinate/Attack. I was writing how they could to the buttons like that so if someone from ubisoft read this thread and wondered "Hmmm, how could we implement that into the game, controller wise."

Conniving_Eagle
06-08-2011, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by lukaszep:
I think kill streaks encouraged you to kill more, and engage in open combat more, which isn't how i see Assassins Creed as being, which is why i try to avoid it. If it was feesable, maybe they could implement difficulty levels before you start the game that uses a different combat system?

Weren't you paying attention when you read the thread? It's not promoting defensive gameplay, it's just making combat cooler and more fun. Playing defensively can only kill 1-2 enemies. With this idea, to begin a kill-chain you would have to play offensively. I think that's what they were designed to do, but they messed up when they made it so that you could start a kill-chain after countering a kill. Adding this mechanic would divide combat into to very different forms. You could play aggresively, and while it will be more risky, you will be reward with kill-chains which will let you kill 2-4 guards. Or, you can play defensively, while it would be safe, you could only kill 1-2 guards at a time. That's a whole reason to replay the game right there. Play it once mainly defensively, play it another time only offensively, and play it again just to mix things up.

CRUDFACE
06-08-2011, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by ConnivingEagle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lukaszep:
I think kill streaks encouraged you to kill more, and engage in open combat more, which isn't how i see Assassins Creed as being, which is why i try to avoid it. If it was feesable, maybe they could implement difficulty levels before you start the game that uses a different combat system?

Weren't you paying attention when you read the thread? It's not promoting defensive gameplay, it's just making combat cooler and more fun. Playing defensively can only kill 1-2 enemies. With this idea, to begin a kill-chain you would have to play offensively. I think that's what they were designed to do, but they messed up when they made it so that you could start a kill-chain after countering a kill. Adding this mechanic would divide combat into to very different forms. You could play aggresively, and while it will be more risky, you will be reward with kill-chains which will let you kill 2-4 guards. Or, you can play defensively, while it would be safe, you could only kill 1-2 guards at a time. That's a whole reason to replay the game right there. Play it once mainly defensively, play it another time only offensively, and play it again just to mix things up. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, I liked the idea you purpose, a way to limit the unstoppable rage of Ezio's...everything, lol. but you can start up a chain kill with the regular attack easily enough when play. Hell, they added a kick button just for that. the problem is that people go back to countering to fast. Like people are saying the hookblade when make combat faster, but people will still wait to counter like the guy did in the demo. He spammed it like crazy.

Now, for all your ideas on guards, they were already there. And the Brutes/Seekers can guard-break. all of it was present in Assassin's Creed 1. they just took it away because too many people complain about it.

For one, why would I only be able to kill up to two guards by countering when on defensive? It's hard to manage the chain kill thing, maybe you need mroe of a meeter that guages your energy for counter killing.

But really, this is like what, the tenth subject on combat killing. I'm sorry, but Ubisoft doesn't care dude. they won't look here and they're just letting us say this stuff to show others that people like us are talking abou their game. It doesn't matter.

crash3
06-09-2011, 01:59 AM
its a bit disappointing to see ezio still doing one hit killstreaks with his hidden blades in the E3 demo, i would have thought that of all things would have been made more challenging

i like a lot of the ideas made in this thread but i dont have high hopes for a btter, more challenging combat system in ACR

Crouching.Tiger
06-09-2011, 07:56 AM
Originally posted by about2xplode:
I believe that since AC has always had mapped buttons to body parts, and specific actions. When having a counter-kill, or even possibly a combat chain. Whatever button you press during the small amount of time given to you when you preform the kill, should be the next action you preform on the next guard. Ex: The X button could be mapped to you're feet and preform kicks and whatnot. Then the Square button could be mapped to you're weapon. Then etc. etc...

I think that this would allow the combatant to have more freedom and choices when in combat, and give him more power than just an automatically triggered computer animation that you did nothing to choose.

That's great! Then you could press the "Head" button to headbutt yourself to victory!

Conniving_Eagle
06-09-2011, 03:01 PM
@t260z

Personally, I don't care THAT much about difficulty. But after Brotherhood, I started to dislike the direction that the series was going. Here's another example apart from the kill-chains. Assassins - Assassins were another thing that Ubisoft added in because they thought it was cool, but it renedered something else completely useless. The Assassins made courtesans, mercenaries and theives useless. Why? Because they didn't distract gaurds, they killed them, and you wouldn't even be caught for it. Ignoring the fact that you can dye their clothes, they look very similar to you, and using them should cause you to be identified as an assassin. They should've been a more desperate measure like for when you're fighting an army alone or just decide to go Leroy Jenkins when assassinating a target, ignoring the stealthy approach completely. I want them to add the double counter idea into Revelations because they barely added any new animations or combatical changes to brotherhood(well they added killchains, but as you know, I think it made the game worse). Combat was so fun in AC2, I want that feeliong again, and I think Ubisoft are running out of ideas.

daniel_gervide
06-09-2011, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by ConnivingEagle:
@t260z

Personally, I don't care THAT much about difficulty. But after Brotherhood, I started to dislike the direction that the series was going. Here's another example apart from the kill-chains. Assassins - Assassins were another thing that Ubisoft added in because they thought it was cool, but it renedered something else completely useless. The Assassins made courtesans, mercenaries and theives useless. Why? Because they didn't distract gaurds, they killed them, and you wouldn't even be caught for it. Ignoring the fact that you can dye their clothes, they look very similar to you, and using them should cause you to be identified as an assassin. They should've been a more desperate measure like for when you're fighting an army alone or just decide to go Leroy Jenkins when assassinating a target, ignoring the stealthy approach completely. I want them to add the double counter idea into Revelations because they barely added any new animations or combatical changes to brotherhood(well they added killchains, but as you know, I think it made the game worse). Combat was so fun in AC2, I want that feeliong again, and I think Ubisoft are running out of ideas.

Ac2 Combat was fun? o.o


Man, i won't talk too much.
Ac1 was fun, why? The combat was harder and noobs couldn't handle with it. When you archive to be able to kill guards fast (even templars) YOU feel like BADASS... at Ac2/B YOUR CHARACTER feel like BADASS... I mean, it's not the samething if u kill everyguard cuz ur character is too overpowered and if you kill everyguard cuz u have skill... if it's due to ur skill you will get a good feel after killing guards, time after time, endless times... If the character is overpowered, you feel baddas the first 15min and you feel happy when you kill guards but after that you feel boring combating...
That's the main problem of Ac2/B

crash3
06-09-2011, 04:48 PM
i think what makes AC1 appear harder is the smaller variety of combat moves so lots of things altair does, the guards were able to do too for example the AC1 guards could dodge, counter and break altairs defense so anything altair did, the guards could do too

AC2/ACB brought in a much bigger variety of combat moves which is great, except ubisoft channelled all these new moves to ezio and at the same time, guards were dumbed down to have only one or two specific moves and they were divided into obvious archetypes so we knew how each guard fought, making combat super easy and predictable

i think a key way to make combat more challenging is to remove the predictability of the guards, the guards from AC1 are harder because they can do almost anything altair could do, so the AC1 combat although repetitive, was less predictable

does that make sense?

CRUDFACE
06-09-2011, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by daniel_gervide:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ConnivingEagle:
@t260z

Personally, I don't care THAT much about difficulty. But after Brotherhood, I started to dislike the direction that the series was going. Here's another example apart from the kill-chains. Assassins - Assassins were another thing that Ubisoft added in because they thought it was cool, but it renedered something else completely useless. The Assassins made courtesans, mercenaries and theives useless. Why? Because they didn't distract gaurds, they killed them, and you wouldn't even be caught for it. Ignoring the fact that you can dye their clothes, they look very similar to you, and using them should cause you to be identified as an assassin. They should've been a more desperate measure like for when you're fighting an army alone or just decide to go Leroy Jenkins when assassinating a target, ignoring the stealthy approach completely. I want them to add the double counter idea into Revelations because they barely added any new animations or combatical changes to brotherhood(well they added killchains, but as you know, I think it made the game worse). Combat was so fun in AC2, I want that feeliong again, and I think Ubisoft are running out of ideas.

Ac2 Combat was fun? o.o


Man, i won't talk too much.
Ac1 was fun, why? The combat was harder and noobs couldn't handle with it. When you archive to be able to kill guards fast (even templars) YOU feel like BADASS... at Ac2/B YOUR CHARACTER feel like BADASS... I mean, it's not the samething if u kill everyguard cuz ur character is too overpowered and if you kill everyguard cuz u have skill... if it's due to ur skill you will get a good feel after killing guards, time after time, endless times... If the character is overpowered, you feel baddas the first 15min and you feel happy when you kill guards but after that you feel boring combating...
That's the main problem of Ac2/B </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm with Daniel here and AC2 had the most problems in combat too me and introduced all the problems. Remember, you were given the one thing from the start to kill everyone, counterkills. Kill chains were made to spice things up. And assassins shouldn't be traced back to you, they simply needed a larger recharge time to return.

If I'm blended, out of sight, or in a pile of hay, they shouldn't see me signaling them.

Pdavis3
06-09-2011, 08:54 PM
In the trailer Ezio used counters to kill guards with their own swords while they were still holding it or swiftly took it away and killed them.

In the demo u see ezio do the same thing, he forces the guard to kill himself haha. so they are improving the combat, but hopefully they will have double counters. I have been hoping for it since AC2.

And about the harder gameplay, i read in a Q&A that they are making a new enemy class that are trained to use guns.

Also there is a new group of ppl u can use to help you fight/distract the guards. The gypsies

Conniving_Eagle
06-09-2011, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by crash3:
i think what makes AC1 appear harder is the smaller variety of combat moves so lots of things altair does, the guards were able to do too for example the AC1 guards could dodge, counter and break altairs defense so anything altair did, the guards could do too

AC2/ACB brought in a much bigger variety of combat moves which is great, except ubisoft channelled all these new moves to ezio and at the same time, guards were dumbed down to have only one or two specific moves and they were divided into obvious archetypes so we knew how each guard fought, making combat super easy and predictable

i think a key way to make combat more challenging is to remove the predictability of the guards, the guards from AC1 are harder because they can do almost anything altair could do, so the AC1 combat although repetitive, was less predictable

does that make sense?

Alright, So I'm going to clarify something, and than bring a new opinion. When I said combat in AC2 was fun, it was because of the new animations, and the gory ways you could kill gaurd with by disarming them. It was fun thanks to the whole new arsenal of weapons and ways to kill people that they added. In ACB, they added kill-chains, but the arsenal and animations were kind of the same, and the kill-chains were very OP which is why combat was easy and boring. Now, I'm one of those skilled AC1 players, too. I haven't played it in a while, but you did remind me. It WAS badass when you could kill a pack of templar crusaders looking like a pro. Which is why combat in AC1 was hard. So, here's the conclusion - If they take the skill that AC1 took by making the gaurds smarter, made the counter times shorter like they were in AC1(Not for hidden blades or unarmed though, those should stay the way they were in AC2), nerf kill-chains like they were proposed in these comments and the thread, and add the double-counter game mechanic, and I think we might have the best AC combat system yet.

daniel_gervide
06-10-2011, 07:54 AM
Originally posted by ConnivingEagle:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by crash3:
i think what makes AC1 appear harder is the smaller variety of combat moves so lots of things altair does, the guards were able to do too for example the AC1 guards could dodge, counter and break altairs defense so anything altair did, the guards could do too

AC2/ACB brought in a much bigger variety of combat moves which is great, except ubisoft channelled all these new moves to ezio and at the same time, guards were dumbed down to have only one or two specific moves and they were divided into obvious archetypes so we knew how each guard fought, making combat super easy and predictable

i think a key way to make combat more challenging is to remove the predictability of the guards, the guards from AC1 are harder because they can do almost anything altair could do, so the AC1 combat although repetitive, was less predictable

does that make sense?

Alright, So I'm going to clarify something, and than bring a new opinion. When I said combat in AC2 was fun, it was because of the new animations, and the gory ways you could kill gaurd with by disarming them. It was fun thanks to the whole new arsenal of weapons and ways to kill people that they added. In ACB, they added kill-chains, but the arsenal and animations were kind of the same, and the kill-chains were very OP which is why combat was easy and boring. Now, I'm one of those skilled AC1 players, too. I haven't played it in a while, but you did remind me. It WAS badass when you could kill a pack of templar crusaders looking like a pro. Which is why combat in AC1 was hard. So, here's the conclusion - If they take the skill that AC1 took by making the gaurds smarter, made the counter times shorter like they were in AC1(Not for hidden blades or unarmed though, those should stay the way they were in AC2), nerf kill-chains like they were proposed in these comments and the thread, and add the double-counter game mechanic, and I think we might have the best AC combat system yet. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What do you think about Ac2/B Hidden blade?

Don't you think that having "kill-chains" only availiable against enemies with their guards down would be better?

Do you think the speed of aimming with gun at AcB was balanced?

Do you prefer Real AI as Ac1 or Standart Values as AcB? (AcB is harder, if not talking about kill-chains and unrealistic/umbalanced hidden blade, but it was predictable)

Conniving_Eagle
06-10-2011, 01:01 PM
@Daniel_Gerivde

The hidden blade in AC1 had a very short counter time. While it was good if you really wanted to challenge yourself at times(which I did), you couldn't be that effective with it unless you wanted to one-hit kill crusaders/templars. In AC2, they made the counter time for the hidden blades a little longer, and you could use them offensively. They were my favorite weapon in AC2. In AC2 they made the counter times for everything a little longer. In AC:B they did it too, but it was alot more noticeable. Try getting a counter-kill with each weapon in AC1, and then try it in ACB, you will definitley notice the difference.

I liked the enemy AI, in AC1, atleast the Crusaders/Templars. They could all block/dodge/grab/counter you. In AC2, they brought in more specific archetypes, and really most of them specialized in one skill and sometimes couldn't even do another one. For example, Brutes can defense break, but can't dodge. I think that they should go back to the AI system of ACI, but keep the archetypes, and each archetype would specialize in one type of move; but they all would have a chance to do each move. Certain archetypes can't do a certain type of move, where the Crusaders could do each one. So they should kind of combine both.

As for Kill-chains, I do want them nerfed. The way I see it, there's two good ways to do it. They can make it so you can start it automatically, if a guard is distracted, or you have to kill the gaurd offensively. With the double-counter idea, you wouldn't be able to start kill-chains with a counter-kill like you could in ACB. Either way, once you begin that kill-chain, you shouldn't be able to simultaenously be doing a kill-chain animation and then counter another kill to keep your kill-chain going. If gaurds did attack you, they would break your kill-chain. So here's the idea - Once you start a kill-chain, the only way to exit it without being hit, is to dodge the attack(RT+A). Or, you can just stop after a certain amount of kills. But this way, you would only get 2-4 kills from a kill-chain.

P.S. I suggest you don't quote everything I say, it's better to just respond with @, and I can assume it's my most recent comment. When people keep replying with quotes, one post ends up taking the whole page.

Black_Widow9
06-10-2011, 01:17 PM
Please use your Original Topic (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5251069024/m/2451059829) instead of double posting. You can edit your 1st post to add the Trailer.
Thanks http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

<span class="ev_code_RED">Topic Closed</span>