PDA

View Full Version : Tribes also changes some old troops too.....



C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-12-2007, 12:36 PM
I haven't gone through them all but I did just notice this on AoH.

Djinn----25% magic proof
Djinn Sultan---50% magic proof
Djinn Vizier---75% magic proof and immune to air

Nice additions. The main weakness of the djinns has just been removed. :O) I'll keep checking the others and post updates.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-12-2007, 12:36 PM
I haven't gone through them all but I did just notice this on AoH.

Djinn----25% magic proof
Djinn Sultan---50% magic proof
Djinn Vizier---75% magic proof and immune to air

Nice additions. The main weakness of the djinns has just been removed. :O) I'll keep checking the others and post updates.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-12-2007, 12:43 PM
Zealot doesn't have blind anymore. Cleansing & Righteous Might.

I also like the Brutes' assault ability.

Wow...paladin is now immune to frenzy. Nice....if you're haven.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-12-2007, 12:50 PM
Skeleton Warriors....now have bash & shield allies too, along with the 25% magic proof & large shield. Definitely a viable option now. Nice.

Spectral Dragons picked up Death stare ability decreases all enemy units morale by -1. Could work nicely with Banshee's death wail.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-12-2007, 01:02 PM
Elves picked up something called "elves double shot" that keeps those new ghosts from stealing their ammo (I guess there could be other new things that can steal shots too).

I really like the "child of light" ability for the pristine unicorn. Nice.

PhoenixReborn06
10-12-2007, 01:30 PM
Vokial, a necro player at AOH reports reducing enemy morale by -18.

Any thoughts on how ammo stealing works with ammo cart present? (i.e. isn't that ability less useful?)

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-12-2007, 01:34 PM
2 heroes named "Orlando". Demon lord and a knight. Odd.

As for the ammo stealing...I've never been too clear on how that ability would be useful very often. *shrugs* I've gotta wait until I've actually got a copy before I can go into details. For now, I'm grabbing the scraps that others reveal. *sigh*

PhoenixReborn06
10-12-2007, 01:37 PM
Right, I forgot you are in the States like me. Wednesday is it?

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-12-2007, 02:06 PM
Yeah, I think so. I've seen NUMEROUS dates listed for US distribution though. I'll just wait and see I guess.

I got spoiled by NWC being located here in the states. :O)

Elodin
10-12-2007, 02:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I haven't gone through them all but I did just notice this on AoH.

Djinn----25% magic proof
Djinn Sultan---50% magic proof
Djinn Vizier---75% magic proof and immune to air

Nice additions. The main weakness of the djinns has just been removed. :O) I'll keep checking the others and post updates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That will help a little bit. I would prefer bring their hit points up to what other level5 units are. There are still extremely vulnerable to towers and shooters and will drop like flies.

Elodin
10-12-2007, 02:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhoenixReborn06:
Vokial, a necro player at AOH reports reducing enemy morale by -18.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is great concern. Enemy units will never get a turn and if enemy hero have empathy he will not take actions either.

I don't understand why paladins need immunity from frenzy. That is too much. Paladins are already gods on the battlefield.

Olo82
10-12-2007, 02:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I haven't gone through them all but I did just notice this on AoH.

Djinn----25% magic proof
Djinn Sultan---50% magic proof
Djinn Vizier---75% magic proof and immune to air

Nice additions. The main weakness of the djinns has just been removed. :O) I'll keep checking the others and post updates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes it was the first thing which i saw in AoH`s academy page.
Their HP was also boosted a little
But there is bad news . Djiinies sultan damage is decreased http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif i remember is was up to 22 and now is 14-19
Also their attack&defense has raised.From 15:13(or oppposite :P ) to 15&15

But maybe finally we will have strong , useful unit http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PhoenixReborn06
10-12-2007, 02:50 PM
Well isn't it also capped on the other end, with only a 50% chance to trigger once you get past 5?

I'm also trying to figure out how you would get it.

-6 from ultimate
-4 from sorrow
-2 from ring
-2 from cloak
-1 from spectral dragon

I'm at -15 what did I miss?

Infiltrator-SF
10-12-2007, 02:56 PM
Anything new for dungeon?

kk2583
10-12-2007, 03:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhoenixReborn06:
Well isn't it also capped on the other end, with only a 50% chance to trigger once you get past 5?

I'm also trying to figure out how you would get it.

-6 from ultimate
-4 from sorrow
-2 from ring
-2 from cloak
-1 from spectral dragon

I'm at -15 what did I miss? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

2 rings?

Not sure how the ultimate works but...
Does ultimate add -6 to the -1 from the actual banshee howl? or is it -6 total? and if it is Deirdre would it be -8 or -7 or -6?

Depending on how it works you might get the remainder of the -18..

Also on AOH i noticed that the Acid Breath description now says it works the same as Prismatic Breath..
So now the Emerald dragon has +1 to attack and defense, and immunity from earth... and everything else is the same (damage range is larger but avg damage is the same)
Why would you chose the Crystal dragon in this case. Hoping its a mistake on AOH about the Acid breath being changed.

PhoenixReborn06
10-12-2007, 03:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kk2583:
Acid Breath description </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I looked at it and it says the same as fire breath. So it just hits two targets in a row.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-12-2007, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I haven't gone through them all but I did just notice this on AoH.

Djinn----25% magic proof
Djinn Sultan---50% magic proof
Djinn Vizier---75% magic proof and immune to air

Nice additions. The main weakness of the djinns has just been removed. :O) I'll keep checking the others and post updates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That will help a little bit. I would prefer bring their hit points up to what other level5 units are. There are still extremely vulnerable to towers and shooters and will drop like flies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not so sure. Thier hp's are up 7 for Djinns and 5 for Sultans. They're cheaper. Players will be more reluctant to cast against them with the resistance (plus toss in the golem's aura). And they're also cheaper now too. Djinns 20 gp less and Sultans 70 gp less. Add to all that the more flexible skill tree and there looks to be many possibilities to maximize thier strengths and minimize their losses.

In regards to the - morale thing....the only bonus to getting it that low is that any spells/skills that would reverse that trend would not have any effect most likely. PR is right, it IS capped. So it's not like you'd get hit with negative morale for every unit every turn. It wouldn't have any more effect than -5 morale would. With the exception of things like the Banshee's morale-based damage ability.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-12-2007, 03:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
Anything new for dungeon? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not much. Less mana for the Matriarch. And some cost reductions. Shadow is 700 gp cheaper, Blackie is down to 3700 gp from 4500 gp. Hydra is 150 gp cheaper and Deep Hydra's down 100 gp. Otherwise, I see no changes.

Elodin
10-12-2007, 04:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I haven't gone through them all but I did just notice this on AoH.

Djinn----25% magic proof
Djinn Sultan---50% magic proof
Djinn Vizier---75% magic proof and immune to air

Nice additions. The main weakness of the djinns has just been removed. :O) I'll keep checking the others and post updates. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That will help a little bit. I would prefer bring their hit points up to what other level5 units are. There are still extremely vulnerable to towers and shooters and will drop like flies. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not so sure. Thier hp's are up 7 for Djinns and 5 for Sultans. They're cheaper. Players will be more reluctant to cast against them with the resistance (plus toss in the golem's aura). And they're also cheaper now too. Djinns 20 gp less and Sultans 70 gp less. Add to all that the more flexible skill tree and there looks to be many possibilities to maximize thier strengths and minimize their losses.

In regards to the - morale thing....the only bonus to getting it that low is that any spells/skills that would reverse that trend would not have any effect most likely. PR is right, it IS capped. So it's not like you'd get hit with negative morale for every unit every turn. It wouldn't have any more effect than -5 morale would. With the exception of things like the Banshee's morale-based damage ability. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Magic proof reduces damage, not resists spell. So opponent will not have reluctance to cast on djinn, who even if sultan got 5 hit points that leaves him very much less hit points than other level 5s.

And making him slightly cheaper is really nothing for making him better at all.

OK,it may be that not every single creature will miss every turn but enough will miss a lot of turns to make battle no contest. Such extreme morale reduction is vastly imbalanced.

Elodin
10-12-2007, 04:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by kk2583:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhoenixReborn06:
Well isn't it also capped on the other end, with only a 50% chance to trigger once you get past 5?

I'm also trying to figure out how you would get it.

-6 from ultimate
-4 from sorrow
-2 from ring
-2 from cloak
-1 from spectral dragon

I'm at -15 what did I miss? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

2 rings?

Not sure how the ultimate works but...
Does ultimate add -6 to the -1 from the actual banshee howl? or is it -6 total? and if it is Deirdre would it be -8 or -7 or -6?

Depending on how it works you might get the remainder of the -18..

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Also expert sorrow gives -4 to luck and morale both. Yet another overpowered dark spell.

PhoenixReborn06
10-12-2007, 05:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
Also expert sorrow gives -4 to luck and morale both. Yet another overpowered dark spell. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wrote that into my original list. It's on one creature, not all. I was surprised to see a level 1 spell be that strong and then I realized that mass slow is still stronger. Also a level 1 spell.

Plus you are not taking into account the idea of having 9 or 10 morale.

Is having 5 morale imbalanced? If not than -5 shouldn't be...and I'm using those numbers because that is where the effective cap is.

Elodin
10-12-2007, 07:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhoenixReborn06:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
Also expert sorrow gives -4 to luck and morale both. Yet another overpowered dark spell. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wrote that into my original list. It's on one creature, not all. I was surprised to see a level 1 spell be that strong and then I realized that mass slow is still stronger. Also a level 1 spell.

Plus you are not taking into account the idea of having 9 or 10 morale.

Is having 5 morale imbalanced? If not than -5 shouldn't be...and I'm using those numbers because that is where the effective cap is. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was pointing out that it also reduces luck by 4.

Of course I'm not taking into account possibility of having 9 or 10 morale. Not all faction can get leadership so readily. Even if faction did have 9 or 10 morale, there morale would be reduced to -5 or more and so have 50% chance of each unit losing turn. That is vastly overpowered.

Necro has more troops than anyone else (and dark energy has even increased!) and now in every single battle opponent's troops will only get to act 50% of time. Again, vastly imbalanced.

And I did say "yet another" overpowered dark spell. Dark is strongest spell school with a number of overpowered spells.

This game is becoming more and more single player only game because of imbalances in game.

Moragauth
10-12-2007, 08:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
Anything new for dungeon? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not much. Less mana for the Matriarch. And some cost reductions. Shadow is 700 gp cheaper, Blackie is down to 3700 gp from 4500 gp. Hydra is 150 gp cheaper and Deep Hydra's down 100 gp. Otherwise, I see no changes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Are you KIDDING? The only change they could think of for the Matriarch is LESS mana? What the hell? They should attach a big neon sign on her saying "Useless" (and maybe the same for whoever implemented the change.) The Mistress is better in every way.

PhoenixReborn06
10-12-2007, 08:38 PM
Yeah, why does the mistress have spells? The difference is obviously shooting but equally obvious, you don't care.

The both of them aren't that great.

Moragauth
10-12-2007, 09:17 PM
Actually the Mistress is good. With Righteous Might she has 29 attack, and her stats are not subpar for a tier 6 unit generally - she will deal a lot more damage than the Matriarch, and she is in some ways a better caster (she can cast unseen, and has a marginally higher Initiative); her Invisibility special can also be of use to the Warlock when creeping. The same cannot be said of the Matriarch. She is limited to 4 weak shots, and now, it seems, less mana. I was expecting something to at least make her slightly more appealing (higher masteries maybe? a Destruction spell?), not less. Shooting is far from some exceptional power, on its own; the Matriarch's primary function is being a caster. Nor is it the only difference between the two units.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-12-2007, 10:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
Magic proof reduces damage, not resists spell. So opponent will not have reluctance to cast on djinn, who even if sultan got 5 hit points that leaves him very much less hit points than other level 5s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I know it reduces damage. And at a reduction of 50%/75% for the 2 upgrades...I'd say they may be reluctant. Especially with any other resistance thrown into the mix. I'm not saying they're top notch troops now...but it's certainly a nice improvement wouldn't you say? Nival seems to be pretty adament about wanting them to stay fairly low on the hit point front due to their "misty" quality. As long as they're useful troops, I'm okay with it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And making him slightly cheaper is really nothing for making him better at all. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I know. I was mearly pointing it out in case someone overlooked it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">OK,it may be that not every single creature will miss every turn but enough will miss a lot of turns to make battle no contest. Such extreme morale reduction is vastly imbalanced. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You do realize that it works the other way as well, right? You can have a +10 morale too. Or a +10 LUCK or a -10 LUCK. All this means is that if a troop with a +10 morale is hit with a Howl of Terror, it turns his morale to a +4. It still has an effect, but it's lessened. Same thing with the luck gambler effect and the banshee's ability. Even with a morale of +10, only the +5 is taken into account during combat (other than things like the banshee ability). So you won't see any difference in combat between a +10 or a +5 morale or luck. I'll have to play it before I decide if it's imbalanced or not. But from the surface, I'd say it'll be fine.

chrissie2300
10-13-2007, 12:31 AM
I mentioned that The Lich Master can shoot

Pitsu
10-13-2007, 03:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moragauth:
I was expecting something to at least make her slightly more appealing ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Considering the importance of eyecandies, maybe they reduced her clothing so that at least some male players will choose her over the other upgrade?

Moragauth
10-13-2007, 08:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pitsu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moragauth:
I was expecting something to at least make her slightly more appealing ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Considering the importance of eyecandies, maybe they reduced her clothing so that at least some male players will choose her over the other upgrade? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bah, the Mistress has the advantage with her fishnet stockings. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-13-2007, 08:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pitsu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moragauth:
I was expecting something to at least make her slightly more appealing ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Considering the importance of eyecandies, maybe they reduced her clothing so that at least some male players will choose her over the other upgrade? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol. You're a bad, bad man Pitsu. :O)


Seriously though, the mistress/matriarch/whatever is actually worse than you think. While most towns' level 5/6/7 got price reductions...she didn't. Not a single GP.

PhoenixReborn06
10-13-2007, 09:32 AM
For the sake of accuracy I wanted to note that the paladins got more expensive, from 1550 to 1700 gold. Of course they also get immunity to frenzy.

Hmm anymore changes to original creatures? The spectral dragon one is nice.

Elodin
10-13-2007, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
Magic proof reduces damage, not resists spell. So opponent will not have reluctance to cast on djinn, who even if sultan got 5 hit points that leaves him very much less hit points than other level 5s. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I know it reduces damage. And at a reduction of 50%/75% for the 2 upgrades...I'd say they may be reluctant. Especially with any other resistance thrown into the mix. I'm not saying they're top notch troops now...but it's certainly a nice improvement wouldn't you say? Nival seems to be pretty adament about wanting them to stay fairly low on the hit point front due to their "misty" quality. As long as they're useful troops, I'm okay with it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If Nival want them to be "misty" then give incorporal ability. Just giving them way less hit poinnts than other level5s don't make them "misty." And the "wheel of fortune" ability just is not good. Random 1-3 luck buff/debuff to one creature? To make it semi useful make it a mass effect. I do not know why Nival's aversion it to making djiin actual spellcasters. It seem more like Nival is more determined to keep djiin useless than "misty."

And Battle Mage have only 10 spell points (fist and cleanse only spells?)

st14z
10-13-2007, 10:19 AM
I am playing campaign and enemy Hero just entered sactuary.. A.I is much better now.

Elementalist.
10-13-2007, 11:15 AM
I will agree with that http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Yay! Also I saw that the mages got decreased mana, now they can cast fist of wrath only twice.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-13-2007, 11:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
If Nival want them to be "misty" then give incorporal ability. Just giving them way less hit poinnts than other level5s don't make them "misty." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, you can't make them incorporeal. Because the top half of them are still there. Half a body...half the hit points. I see where they're coming from....but I don't have to like it. But I can certainly deal with it.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And the "wheel of fortune" ability just is not good. Random 1-3 luck buff/debuff to one creature? To make it semi useful make it a mass effect. I do not know why Nival's aversion it to making djiin actual spellcasters. It seem more like Nival is more determined to keep djiin useless than "misty." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

It can certainly prove to be useful...depends upon the situation I'd say. But in my opinion the simple addition of the magic proof and air immunity makes them a formidible troop. As for making them spellcasters...Don't know. I certainly don't have a problem with them being mainly melee troops rather than spell casters.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And Battle Mage have only 10 spell points (fist and cleanse only spells?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ummm...let's see, because they're BATTLE mages. Sure they have some spells, but thier main focus is in combat. Ranged combat. If you want one that's more focused on the magic side, go for the archmage. The battlemage gives you the option to have a lethal ranged troop that you can both protect and not worry about placement so much to avoid harming your own units.

Lowering the regular mage's mana to 10 only emphasizes the importance of upgrading them and on using the ranged attack. Again, no real problem with that change.

Jolly-Joker
10-13-2007, 01:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
And the "wheel of fortune" ability just is not good. Random 1-3 luck buff/debuff to one creature? To make it semi useful make it a mass effect. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Do you really know what you are talking abot? I don't think so. A MASS EFFECT? To make it SEMI useful??? That's... well. There are no Luck spells, so against a luck reduction or an increase there is not much of a counter possible. A point of Luck is worth 10% damage increase on average and on attack. Now take two stacks of Djinn into battle and cast with both on the opponent, leaving Gargoyles out. This means, the whole opposing army gets 2-6 LESS Luck; absurd.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-13-2007, 01:13 PM
Well, to be fair JJ, I don't think he was going to suggest a mass 1-3 boost/de-buff but rather a change of 1 for a mass variety. 3 would be very much OVER-powered. So if they were to switch it to a mass effect, it should be a +1 or a -1 maximum effect I'd think. Also, it would still be at most a +/- 3 (not 2-6) because the effect doesn't stack. So overall, I'd suggest leaving it as it is. A -3 to luck is a healthy hit to a specific creature. You've just got to pick the right unit(s).

As it is now, I don't see myself using it much. With thier magic defense now in place I see them more as a melee unit than anything.

Elodin
10-13-2007, 01:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elodin:
If Nival want them to be "misty" then give incorporal ability. Just giving them way less hit poinnts than other level5s don't make them "misty." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah, you can't make them incorporeal. Because the top half of them are still there. Half a body...half the hit points. I see where they're coming from....but I don't have to like it. But I can certainly deal with it.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nival's graphical decision to give them half a body does not justify lower hit points. But if they are half there and half not then they should be harder to hit. They have too low hit points to be melee troops unless they have some kind special ability that helps them survive. Like incorporal, no retal, something like that. As it is they are melee troops that can't survive. They are just plain poor troops as they are now.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
It can certainly prove to be useful...depends upon the situation I'd say. But in my opinion the simple addition of the magic proof and air immunity makes them a formidible troop. As for making them spellcasters...Don't know. I certainly don't have a problem with them being mainly melee troops rather than spell casters.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many times you use wheel of fortune with djiin being large creature and small battlefield? One time max. So their special ability is really to give one stack 1-3 change in luck (which can be dispeled.) Pretty poor special for a level 5 creature. I don't see how the magic proof and immuninty to lightning/chain lightning as making them formidable. If they are to be melee creatures they need specials and hit points that match melee creatures.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">And Battle Mage have only 10 spell points (fist and cleanse only spells?) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ummm...let's see, because they're BATTLE mages. Sure they have some spells, but thier main focus is in combat. Ranged combat. If you want one that's more focused on the magic side, go for the archmage. The battlemage gives you the option to have a lethal ranged troop that you can both protect and not worry about placement so much to avoid harming your own units.

Lowering the regular mage's mana to 10 only emphasizes the importance of upgrading them and on using the ranged attack. Again, no real problem with that change. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

There will actually still be problem with battle mage harming his troops/being limited where he can shoot. Only his allies next to him are immune to his attacks. As battle progress with Rakasha, gargoyle, golem moving around then he become very limited where he can shoot withour bringing harm to his friends. He lost fireball, righteous might, 15 mana, and spell cost lowering aura. That was a LOT to lose for his "ability" not to hurt adjacent allies.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Lowering the regular mage's mana to 10 only emphasizes the importance of upgrading them and on using the ranged attack. Again, no real problem with that change. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG I had not seen that regular mage lost 5 mana! Why? Nival has weakened the academy. And battle mage have only 10 mana too. Heh.

Lol! Change emphasizes importance of upgrading mages! And how do you do than anytime soon? Impossible. Mage tower itself is quite costly not to menttion upgrade.

Academy is weaker in TOTE.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-13-2007, 01:45 PM
Just so you know, building costs were lowered as well.

Jolly-Joker
10-13-2007, 01:54 PM
Chuck, even if it WOULD not stack, you could cast it on THEIR army AND on your own and the bottom line would still be a net gain of 40% on average. Because I don't see anywhere a suggestion of capping this to +-1 Luck.

"Academy is weaker in TOTE."

Good gracious.

Elodin
10-13-2007, 02:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Just so you know, building costs were lowered as well. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I looked in HOF2.1 manual and 3.0 manual and I see no difference between building costs for Academy. I did not look at other factions. Are they different in game? Game hopefully arrives Wednesday.

Elodin
10-13-2007, 02:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Chuck, even if it WOULD not stack, you could cast it on THEIR army AND on your own and the bottom line would still be a net gain of 40% on average. Because I don't see anywhere a suggestion of capping this to +-1 Luck.

"Academy is weaker in TOTE."

Good gracious. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Make them have one use per battle. They can use ability either to boost own troops or debuff enenmy. As fragile as they are for level 5 troops they might not even get second turn anyway.

Elementalist.
10-13-2007, 05:00 PM
Seriously...Why would anyone consider academy weaker? The mages don't really need the extra fist and with the saboteurs the earlygame is already easier.

Elodin
10-13-2007, 05:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Elementalist.:
Seriously...Why would anyone consider academy weaker? The mages don't really need the extra fist and with the saboteurs the earlygame is already easier. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

While fist is weak, it is useful when you first get mages and split them in stacks of 1. Why nerf the mages?

I guess if you don't use golems sabateurs might be better. Otherwise is better to be able to repair golems with master gremlins. The sabateur special will seldom if ever be used.

And that change was only one of the changes that made Academy weaker.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-13-2007, 07:55 PM
A few things....

even if you don't use the sabotage ability, you've still got a rather healthy bump to their attack rating, so they're VERY good units with or without that sabotage ability.

Yes, having one extra fist casting per mage was useful for early scouting. But it's not like that's the only way to explore early on with academy. They've got TONS of options open to them for early exploration.

@ JJ.... Yeah, I thought about the net worth of casting mass on friendly AND unfriendly, but I didn't think that's what you meant. I was seeing 2-6 as in 1-3 cast twice on one group. Well, I'm actually fine with it the way it is now. I'm still hoping that they'll be more ways to inflict negative luck on things. As it is, you rarely see negative luck...ever.

In regards to building costs, maybe they haven't updated AoH yet. Because I remember seeing the Gargoyle dwelling cheaper, the Titan dwelling cheaper and something else too. I'll double check when I get home...unless someone could confirm it for us...someone who actually HAS the game. :O)

Moragauth
10-13-2007, 09:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Pitsu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moragauth:
I was expecting something to at least make her slightly more appealing ... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Considering the importance of eyecandies, maybe they reduced her clothing so that at least some male players will choose her over the other upgrade? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol. You're a bad, bad man Pitsu. :O)


Seriously though, the mistress/matriarch/whatever is actually worse than you think. While most towns' level 5/6/7 got price reductions...she didn't. Not a single GP. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unfortunately so. However, I don't mind the Mistress's high cost as much as I do the Matriarch's, whose power now is apparently further reduced.

KingImp
10-14-2007, 12:45 AM
I don't have the expansion yet, so I have a question. It has more to do with a hero instead of troops.

How does Eruina's specialty work now? I read the description on AoH which says "Shadow Witches, Shadow Matriarchs and Shadow Mistresses have a chance to make a free additional shot at the hero's current target. Chance increases depending on hero level."
Well, the Shadow Mistresses don't shoot so how do they work while in Eruina's army?

Jolly-Joker
10-14-2007, 01:05 AM
1) Arcane Forge: DROP from 3000 gold to 2000 gold.
2) Stone Parapet: DROP from 10 Ore to 5.
3) Obsidian Parapet: DROP from 2700 Gold and 10 Ore to 2400 Gold.
4) Golem Foundry: DROP from 3000 gold to 2500 Gold.
5) Mage Tower: DROP from 2500 to 2200 gold
6) Archmage Tower: DROP from 6000 to 5000 gold
7) Altar of Wishes: DROP from 3000 gold to 2500 gold. INCREASE from 0 Wood to 10 Wood.
8) Pinnacle of Wishes: DROP from 8000 gold to 6000 gold; INCREASE from 0 Wood to 5 Wood
9) Silver Pavillon: DROP from 6000 gold to 5000 gold.
10) Golden Pavillon: DROP from 10000 gold to 8000 gold and 5 Gems to 0 Gems; INCREASE from 5 Sulfur to 10 Sulfur and from 0 Crystal to 10 Crystal.
The bottom line is that it's 8600 gold less.
It's 15 Ore less and 15 Wood more, it's 5 Gems less and 5 Sulfur more, and lastly it's 10 Crystal more.

Elodin
10-14-2007, 04:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
1) Arcane Forge: DROP from 3000 gold to 2000 gold.
2) Stone Parapet: DROP from 10 Ore to 5.
3) Obsidian Parapet: DROP from 2700 Gold and 10 Ore to 2400 Gold.
4) Golem Foundry: DROP from 3000 gold to 2500 Gold.
5) Mage Tower: DROP from 2500 to 2200 gold
6) Archmage Tower: DROP from 6000 to 5000 gold
7) Altar of Wishes: DROP from 3000 gold to 2500 gold. INCREASE from 0 Wood to 10 Wood.
8) Pinnacle of Wishes: DROP from 8000 gold to 6000 gold; INCREASE from 0 Wood to 5 Wood
9) Silver Pavillon: DROP from 6000 gold to 5000 gold.
10) Golden Pavillon: DROP from 10000 gold to 8000 gold and 5 Gems to 0 Gems; INCREASE from 5 Sulfur to 10 Sulfur and from 0 Crystal to 10 Crystal.
The bottom line is that it's 8600 gold less.
It's 15 Ore less and 15 Wood more, it's 5 Gems less and 5 Sulfur more, and lastly it's 10 Crystal more. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In other words, those are the exact prices as Hammers of Fate 2.1, which is what I said. No reduction of costs at all from HOF2.1.

Jolly-Joker
10-14-2007, 04:24 AM
Yes, the reduction is compared to 1.5.
Why would you want to reduce the HoF costs even further? The cost is rather low anyway.

KingAlamar
10-14-2007, 06:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Yes, the reduction is compared to 1.5.
Why would you want to reduce the HoF costs even further? The cost is rather low anyway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't necessarily think that he wanted to lower the costs ... it's that he thought that the costs were lowered compared to HoF and was wondering what was going on.

Elodin
10-14-2007, 06:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Yes, the reduction is compared to 1.5.
Why would you want to reduce the HoF costs even further? The cost is rather low anyway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not one who brought up lowering building costs. To sumarize: I complain about mage being nerfed. Chuckles says it emphasized importance of upgrading mage. I said buiding upgraded mage dwelling won't happen anytime soon because it is difficult to upgrade. Chuckles said some building costs were changed.

Building cost have not been lowered, at least not for those of us playing HOF. Most user maps out lately need HOF so that is what I have been playing.

Why was it good to nerf the mage?

Academy is going to be facing very much uphill battle in TOTE because of a number of changes that are bad for them. Those with easy access to leadership for example are going to be casting their mass spells faster than wizards for example because they get emphathy. Might heroes are going to be stronger spell caster than magic heroe. There are other changes I could mention as well but I have to go.

Moragauth
10-14-2007, 07:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by KingImp:
Well, the Shadow Mistresses don't shoot so how do they work while in Eruina's army? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I suppose they will get a free shot against an adjacent enemy, one they cannot retaliate against?

Napek85
10-14-2007, 08:08 AM
Mistresses don't have 'ammo' so they can't shoot normally but I think they will be used for Eruina's special the same way as Matriarch and Witches. Since it has always been a FREE shot I don't see any reason why they shouldn't be able to shoot. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-14-2007, 08:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Jolly-Joker:
Yes, the reduction is compared to 1.5.
Why would you want to reduce the HoF costs even further? The cost is rather low anyway. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm...okay. I guess I looked at the wrong costs or something. Sorry for the mix up guys.

Celebrimor85
10-14-2007, 12:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by PhoenixReborn06:
Well isn't it also capped on the other end, with only a 50% chance to trigger once you get past 5?

I'm also trying to figure out how you would get it.

-6 from ultimate
-4 from sorrow
-2 from ring
-2 from cloak
-1 from spectral dragon

I'm at -15 what did I miss? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, you missed the new necro set wich doubbles the effect of banshee howl(To 2morale/luck and 20% initiative, also makes it cost half initiative to cast)

Also if you add a copy of the ring you get 3 more than you used so -18 there is, however then you cant get the full effect of deaths embrace wich is nice for the morale lowering:

Set bonuses
For 2 items: Decreases speed of all enemy creatures by -1.
For 4 items: Enemy creatures that fail the morale check get a -20% penalty to their Attack and Defense until the start of next turn.

Additional Set bonuses for Necromancer
For 2 items: "Banshee Howl" will now decrease enemy's Morale and Luck by -2 and its Initiative by -20%. Moreover, the use of this ability will only move the Hero 50% backwards along the ATB bar.

Infiltrator-SF
10-14-2007, 04:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
Anything new for dungeon? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not much. Less mana for the Matriarch. And some cost reductions. Shadow is 700 gp cheaper, Blackie is down to 3700 gp from 4500 gp. Hydra is 150 gp cheaper and Deep Hydra's down 100 gp. Otherwise, I see no changes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, I don't see the logic behind that.

Final_Boss
10-14-2007, 08:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I was pointing out that it also reduces luck by 4.

Of course I'm not taking into account possibility of having 9 or 10 morale. Not all faction can get leadership so readily. Even if faction did have 9 or 10 morale, there morale would be reduced to -5 or more and so have 50% chance of each unit losing turn. That is vastly overpowered.

Necro has more troops than anyone else (and dark energy has even increased!) and now in every single battle opponent's troops will only get to act 50% of time. Again, vastly imbalanced.

And I did say "yet another" overpowered dark spell. Dark is strongest spell school with a number of overpowered spells.

This game is becoming more and more single player only game because of imbalances in game. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Holy baby Jesus... you wrote imbalanced & overpowered so many times that I thought I was drunk or something worse. I really hope you can back up those words, or otherwise I will have to slap you in the face, sir. lol

Seems like those times of luck & morale working only as buffs finally ended. You should be happy!

PS: I'm thinking... If now you can get things like -10 morale, would banshees' death wail deal 20*banshee or in the other hand is it limited to 15*banshee? I'm going to check it.

PhoenixReborn06
10-14-2007, 09:13 PM
And Necromancers get more Dark Energy too.

Even if Motn was nerfed.

::ducks out of the way::

Jolly-Joker
10-15-2007, 12:41 AM
Actually it looks like MotN has not only been nerfed, it has been made abuse-proof as well. You need now 75 damage to regain a spell point - however, it looks like all damage done to the Marked stack is continually counted, so if a stack of you does 10 damage you regain 1 Mana. If the next stack does 20 damage you regain nothing. You regain the next Mana, when the sum of damage done to the marked stack has reached 76 and so on.

Elodin
10-15-2007, 07:11 AM
According to information on AOH it is now harder to get spells from dragon cities/mage vaults/pyramids. The spells there are completely random (does not look at your skils.) So you may get a spell there that you have not skill to cast.

Moragauth
10-15-2007, 09:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
Anything new for dungeon? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not much. Less mana for the Matriarch. And some cost reductions. Shadow is 700 gp cheaper, Blackie is down to 3700 gp from 4500 gp. Hydra is 150 gp cheaper and Deep Hydra's down 100 gp. Otherwise, I see no changes. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, I don't see the logic behind that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
At least you agree. Hey, while we're at it, why not reduce her to 2 shots? 4 is too many!

Seriously though, her primary function was as a caster - why worsen her!?

PhoenixReborn06
10-15-2007, 07:03 PM
Looks like Pit Lords mana was reduced from 29 to 20.

That is probably because of the vermin.

Moragauth
10-15-2007, 09:26 PM
Probably. Their spells are not too costly anyway, and with the vermin they'll have no reason to worry. They're my favourite Inferno unit.

PhoenixReborn06
10-15-2007, 09:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Moragauth:
Probably. Their spells are not too costly anyway, and with the vermin they'll have no reason to worry. They're my favourite Inferno unit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wasn't the meteor shower 19 mana? and then you could do one fireball or two vulnerabilities? Or am I way off?

I hate the slow initiative of the pit lord...but I guess in a long fight, like the hydra, they can have their uses.

Moragauth
10-15-2007, 11:22 PM
I think something like 12 mana? I haven't played in months, but it wasn't as high as 19, or so I think. I recall being able to cast it twice.

Shauku83
10-16-2007, 05:49 AM
Sadly yes, their mana is now 20 and a Meteor Shower does cost 19 mana. So that is one spell, and thats it. I guess it doesn't matter since no one will be picking Pit Lord over the monstruous Pit Spawn anyhow http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/51.gif

Vermin + Pit Lord looks good only in Castle defenses...

Moragauth
10-16-2007, 07:21 AM
Well it's not totally problematic - the Vermin can give the Pit Lord mana. 19 mana though? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif The spell is pricier than I remember.

Shauku83
10-16-2007, 07:35 AM
But... Siphon Mana is an activated ability. Also, 50 Vermins will bring 6 mana, divided among casters. And what do you always do with casters? You divide them for maximal effect. So I always have Pit Lords in 2 stacks... that means 50 Vermins will give 3 mana to each by using its turn on it. That gives them nothing, sadly. Of course Gating here helps, but I'll never get to see 2 Meteror Showers for sure, and I'd say that is the sole reason I would use Vermins.

What I think is that the mana reduction is not too unfair, but, they should have buffed his melee capability then. Now Pit Spawn is so much superior, a single Meteor Shower won't turn the tides - especially with an initiative of 8.

24 mana would be better. There would be mana for 1 Meteor Shower and one Vulnerability, or 2 Fire Balls. And with using the ability of Vermins, you could get it it up to Meteor Shower + Fireball - that which the previous Pit Lord already was able to do...

zenithale
10-16-2007, 09:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Shauku83:
Now Pit Spawn is so much superior </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think too. A single Meteor Shower or +5 Attack, +2 Defense, +1 Init, +2 Speed, +20 HP, + 50% Magic proof...
Vermins are not efficient and are easily slaughtered.

Fael569
10-16-2007, 11:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> quote:
Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:

quote:
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:

quote:
Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
Anything new for dungeon?



Not much. Less mana for the Matriarch. And some cost reductions. Shadow is 700 gp cheaper, Blackie is down to 3700 gp from 4500 gp. Hydra is 150 gp cheaper and Deep Hydra's down 100 gp. Otherwise, I see no changes.



Wow, I don't see the logic behind that.


At least you agree. Hey, while we're at it, why not reduce her to 2 shots? 4 is too many!

Seriously though, her primary function was as a caster - why worsen her!? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Dungeon gained about 20% with their new upgrades. Their early game with the invisible Stalkers is now so much more playable... And late game invisible mistresses is just power. After her spells she turns into a fighter.

Fael569
10-16-2007, 02:18 PM
Oh, about changes to Dungeon; I believe the rate for sacking creatures in the pit is better now. And they now got (empowered) Deepfreeze as new level 5 destruction. Oh, and Firewall is now destructive instead of summoning.

B_Doomreaver
10-16-2007, 02:53 PM
Yeah, in my opinion Dungeon may have lost a bit of the old Matriarch 'power' (heh) but gained cheaper troops and powerful upgrades on several tiers, and the changes to the Destruction tree may prove very profitable for them. (Warlocks are frequently the most capable to cast Destruction magics anyways in my experience.)

Moragauth
10-16-2007, 04:32 PM
All the factions have gained in power - Dungeon needed these changes to remain competitive. I am very glad about the Mistress as I had predicted she'd be a great alternate, but she is superior to the Matriarch to the extent that the latter is utterly redundant; on top of that, the Matriarch was weakened. That isn't balance, that is just rendering the original unit useless. I hope Nival doesn't get the stupid idea to downgrade the Mistress instead... that'd piss me off. The Pit Spawn was also shafted I see, and Shauku raises a good point. But the Pit Lord was not a bad unit to start out with.

Also, how has the Destruction tree changed? I am getting impatient to play the game. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Final_Boss
10-16-2007, 04:50 PM
Not all factions have gained in power. I would say necropolis alternatives are cr@p, considering that those new necro upgrades are true alternatives, while most of factions have got a good amount of overpowered new upgrades.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
10-16-2007, 05:34 PM
I'm not sure about the necro alt's being cr@p FB. I'm pretty interested in seeing the Banshee's special ability when taking those huge morale changes into account. Not to mention the lich being able to raise dead and the huge changes to the skeleton warrior. I'd say they're looking pretty darned tempting. (of course I'm still waiting for the game...durnit!)

Infiltrator-SF
10-16-2007, 06:06 PM
I agree with Moragauth. The Mistress beats the Matriarch flat out, they must have nerfed her only to make this point - "You think Matriarch was weak? What about now that we nerfed her and gave you an obviously better alternative?"

zenithale
10-16-2007, 06:22 PM
New skeleton warrior and lich Master are very good with their Shield Allies (as tier 3 squire!) and Raise dead spell.

PhoenixReborn06
10-16-2007, 06:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Infiltrator-SF:
I agree with Moragauth. The Mistress beats the Matriarch flat out, they must have nerfed her only to make this point - "You think Matriarch was weak? What about now that we nerfed her and gave you an obviously better alternative?" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I'm surprised that none of the "stronger" alternates are higher in gold cost.

Moragauth
10-16-2007, 07:17 PM
That'd be an option too. In the Matriarch's case though it wouldn't take much to improve her... something like raising her mastery levels, giving her a Destruction spell etc. (as well as restoring her mana levels) would do the trick.

BTW, has Frenzy been removed from Whip Strike for the Mistress?

FinalBoss, I am not sure what to make yet of Necropolis and its alternates, as the ******* game has yet to arrive due to a postal strike.

B_Doomreaver
10-16-2007, 10:43 PM
Link to page I'm referencing (http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/toe_destructive_magic.shtml)

The above linked page is a reference hosted by Age of Heroes that shows the Tribes of the East Destruction spells, including formulae for their power. Changes I see are that Firewall is now a level 3 Destruction spell (instead of a level 4 Summoning), and more importantly that a new spell has been added to level 5: Deep Freeze.

According to the formula posted there for Deep Freeze, it does at Expert mastery: 30 + 30*spellpower damage intially, plus makes the target suffer (spellpower + 1)*3% additional damage from physical attacks for the next round.

I ran some numbers, and they say if you have creatures that would normally be able to do at least 333 damage to the enemy before one round has passed after casting Deep Freeze, it would make Deep Freeze's total damage match Implosion's damage for only 11 mana (instead of Implosion's 18). Though this assumes that you have neither the Evercold Icicle or the Emerald Slippers, of course.

Empowered, it would take 500 damage from your army to make Deep Freeze do more damage than Implosion in one cast.

One more thing about this new spell is that the Master of Ice destruction talent that helps Ice Bolt and Circle of Winter also applies to Deep Freeze, as does Cold Death. (at least according to the skillwheel at Celestial Heavens)

Olo82
10-17-2007, 01:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B_Doomreaver:
Link to page I'm referencing (http://www.heroesofmightandmagic.com/heroes5/toe_destructive_magic.shtml)

The above linked page is a reference hosted by Age of Heroes that shows the Tribes of the East Destruction spells, including formulae for their power. Changes I see are that Firewall is now a level 3 Destruction spell (instead of a level 4 Summoning), and more importantly that a new spell has been added to level 5: Deep Freeze.

According to the formula posted there for Deep Freeze, it does at Expert mastery: 30 + 30*spellpower damage intially, plus makes the target suffer (spellpower + 1)*3% additional damage from physical attacks for the next round.

I ran some numbers, and they say if you have creatures that would normally be able to do at least 333 damage to the enemy before one round has passed after casting Deep Freeze, it would make Deep Freeze's total damage match Implosion's damage for only 11 mana (instead of Implosion's 18). Though this assumes that you have neither the Evercold Icicle or the Emerald Slippers, of course.

Empowered, it would take 500 damage from your army to make Deep Freeze do more damage than Implosion in one cast.

One more thing about this new spell is that the Master of Ice destruction talent that helps Ice Bolt and Circle of Winter also applies to Deep Freeze, as does Cold Death. (at least according to the skillwheel at Celestial Heavens) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And think about MoTW. in one turn you can kill at least 2 creatures( due to Cold Death ) - so bye bye Magmas http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I wonder if target will suffer double additional damage from physical attacks.i mean twice than normal. Can somebody check it ?

Moragauth
10-17-2007, 04:03 AM
I had a look. I like the changes.

Final_Boss
10-17-2007, 05:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I'm not sure about the necro alt's being cr@p FB. I'm pretty interested in seeing the Banshee's special ability when taking those huge morale changes into account. Not to mention the lich being able to raise dead and the huge changes to the skeleton warrior. I'd say they're looking pretty darned tempting. (of course I'm still waiting for the game...durnit!) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Banshees will never be as good as wraiths, at least not 99% of the time. Deat Wail is very, very weak, really. Now that everybody has access to Power of Speed/Endurance necro needs wraiths' harm touch. Wraiths deal more damage in melee, too.
About lich masters, well, they lost death cloud, decay and weakness just for basic raise dead and +2 attack. Necro already sucks in damage dealing, so lich masters are out of place there. Everybody forgets things like 25 archlichs do 736 points of damage with decay spell, and they can cast it 2 times. Lich masters are only useful against necromancers
Skeleton warriors are great I agree, but nothing specially important in the battlefield. They shine against sylvan and haven, but just for shield allies ability. Skeleton archers are still very useful, as they deal ranged damage.

Anyway I'm not used to new creatures yet, maybe after a few games more I change my mind and those creatures turn out to be great, or sucky, who knows.

B_Doomreaver
10-17-2007, 06:21 AM
As to if Deep Freeze would be able to make the target take +100% or more physical damage: I don't see why not, if you get 33 or more Spellpower. 16 plus Mark of the Wizard (+52% from one cast) would be EXTREMELY unlikely to bring it over 100% increased, though. There are very few debuffs in this game that can 'stack' with itself, most just refresh the duration.

As to Archlich vs Lich Masters: Well, Lich Masters also gained 1 max damage, 3 max mana, and 1 speed (heh) over the Archlich. I agree that in the majority of situations, they're underwhelming though. Oh, and 736ish for Decay from 25 Archliches, unless they changed it, is only for 10 initiative critters that get no Morale effects (good or bad), or other initiative changing effects like Divine Guidance. The damage ticks every time the afflicted creature's turn comes up during the next 4 rounds (4 due to the Archlich's mastery of Decay), so a Blood Fury would take a lot more Decay ticks than an Ancient Treant. Was that '736ish' an approximate average?

As to Banshees: I see them as a sort of area of effect creature for Necromancers who attempt to lower the enemy morale as much as possible. Their damage per enemy stack WILL be lower than an equal number of Wraiths if they do straight-out Melee, but the Banshees can potentially hit the entire enemy army. (if it's composed of entirely living troops and dumb enough to be in a tight clump) Relying on enemy stupidity is a bad tactic against human opponents, I know, but it shouldn't be too hard to make sure the Banshees have at least 2-3 enemy stacks in range if they go charge to the enemy ranged troops. (assuming their 6 speed and 11 initiative don't keep them out of battle too long, which it quite possibly would. Then again, it's no worse than the Wraiths, and the Banshees DO have another 10 hitpoints over the Wraiths.)

Final_Boss
10-17-2007, 07:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Oh, and 736ish for Decay from 25 Archliches, unless they changed it, is only for 10 initiative critters that get no Morale effects (good or bad), or other initiative changing effects like Divine Guidance. The damage ticks every time the afflicted creature's turn comes up during the next 4 rounds (4 due to the Archlich's mastery of Decay), so a Blood Fury would take a lot more Decay ticks than an Ancient Treant. Was that '736ish' an approximate average? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yeah, 736 was the result of the base formula--&gt; (32+8*power)*4 turns(10 initiative). Creatures like blood furys would take 1288 points of damage, with no morale effects, spells, or abilities, of course. A lot of damage.

About banshees: the damage of their ability is just too low. Even if 15 banshees would be surrounded by 4 creatures with -5 morale, those creatures would suffer 225 points of damage each, 900 total. And banshees have 10 hit points more, yeah, but -1 defense.

PhoenixReborn06
10-17-2007, 07:58 AM
So that isn't in fact a true alternate. The wraith is much better than the banshee!

Wurtzel1952
10-17-2007, 09:27 AM
After playing this game (tote) for about 5 days now and experimenting with some of the alternitive upgrades, I've come to the conclusion that it all depends on your upcoming battles as to which you'd choose. Eg, as Final Boss said, one would choose master liches against other undead or elemental armies so a bit of preplanning is required. I guess it comes down to trial and error as to which alternitive is best against whatever..

Celebrimor85
10-18-2007, 09:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B_Doomreaver:
As to if Deep Freeze would be able to make the target take +100% or more physical damage: I don't see why not, if you get 33 or more Spellpower. 16 plus Mark of the Wizard (+52% from one cast) would be EXTREMELY unlikely to bring it over 100% increased, though. There are very few debuffs in this game that can 'stack' with itself, most just refresh the duration.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ive gotten deep freeze to increase damage by more than 100% so its certainly possible.

B_Doomreaver
10-20-2007, 10:44 PM
An interesting thing about the Gremlin Saboteur:
Even though the in-game description says their Sabotage ability is purely based on having more total hitpoints than the enemy stack, I have successfully Sabotaged a Catapult (1,000 life) with 60 Saboteurs. (360 total life) They kept on sabotaging every round until the enemy AI fled (he had pretty much nothing that could affect me besides his hero as I had already killed all his Genies, Mages, and Master Gremlins, plus his Obsidian Gargoyles were dying fast.)

Xenofex_086
10-21-2007, 06:11 AM
I'm slightly concerned that the overall efficiency of some factions is improved, compared to the others, by both of the upgrades of a certain creature. Take Sylvan for example - Pixies - Sprites - Dryads. The Sprites are clearly better than the Dryads in the early game, but later their advantage becomes nearly useless, compared to the ability to heal your Treants. One re-upgrade and you can have both of these goodies. The story's the same with the new Druids (can't remmember their names) - maybe the mana channel of the Elder Druids has its uses in the first few weeks, but later, with a lot of knowledge, more Spell Power will always come handy. Actually this special ability of the new fellows could even prove to be overpowered with a good selection of Distructive spells.
There were some similar examples with Fortress, though I can't remember what was their case right now... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/disagree.gif
Anyway - most of Inferno's, Necro's, Haven's and Academy's new creatures seem to be "real" alternatives - you pick only one, most of the time, while the others are able to do this "shapeshifting" and improve their strategical performance seriously...