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Keuchel
01-16-2006, 11:46 PM
I have a question about strategy that I'd like people's thoughts on. For the purpose of this discussion, we're assuming the worst- after sinking a healthy amount of merchants in a convoy, an escort has a bead on you and aims to sink you. His depth charges have already caused flooding, and he aims to cause more. My question is, do I A) avoid this in the first place by trying to sink the escorts first, and then deal with the convoy, or B) attempt to repair my flooding while he is still above me dropping depth charges? It seems as though once you've started flooding, you're in a tight spot because you want to run silent, but at the same time you'd like to keep your boat from going to the bottom like a rock. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on this one, thanks.

maxpower2
01-17-2006, 12:03 AM
depending on your torp loadout id forgoe taking the escorts out first.

if they are close to the convoy when hit, the rest of the convoy starts to zigzag. making your job harder.

there is usually a hole in the escort to exploit. just be patient and note their track patterns. when a hole opens up make a run in and get amongst the merchies.

when im actually in the attack i usually have a dc crew manned and ready. if i get hit bad i immediately stop and come shallow to relive the sea pressure. i then use all hand available to fix the compartments. using the dc crew and mving bodies around from compartment to compartment.

if you start to slip down and cant maintain depth, use the backing bells to actually pull the boat up. or forward bells if going down by the stern. or slow its descent anyways! blow ballast if you have to, it may buy you precious seconds.

if you broach, man the deck gun and go down fighting.

vanjast
01-17-2006, 01:55 AM
Priority is to stop the flooding - Nothing else matters.

Do not attack them as this will only give your position away. They might have a bead on you but it's only approximate, and they'll lose you when they attack. Go as deep as you can an monitor them with sonar. go for the gap 'silently'

See you back at base
http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

paulhager
01-17-2006, 08:57 AM
Originally posted by Keuchel:
I have a question about strategy that I'd like people's thoughts on. For the purpose of this discussion, we're assuming the worst- after sinking a healthy amount of merchants in a convoy, an escort has a bead on you and aims to sink you. His depth charges have already caused flooding, and he aims to cause more. My question is, do I A) avoid this in the first place by trying to sink the escorts first, and then deal with the convoy, or B) attempt to repair my flooding while he is still above me dropping depth charges? It seems as though once you've started flooding, you're in a tight spot because you want to run silent, but at the same time you'd like to keep your boat from going to the bottom like a rock. I'd appreciate anyone's thoughts on this one, thanks.

If you have flooding you have to deal with that. Put your repair folks on it (I always have 4 fully trained Warrant Officers with "repair" skill for exactly this purpose) and then concentrate on eluding the escort(s). When the flooding is dealt with, THEN you can go silent.

Beyond that, from the strategy standpoint, I'd say, don't attack escorts unless you (1) have a very good shot or (2) have no other choice. An escort is a low tonnage ship - go for the tankers or liners. You want to avoid (2) if at all possible. This means that you need to plan your attack to minimize detection. It's better to abort an attack and reposition than get DC'ed.

Sometimes, your best position for attack will be 2000 - 3000 meters from a convoy. If you read the account of my Murmansk Convoy (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/857101043/m/4431094893) attacks (#4 has links to the earlier 3 posts and a few comments about later patrols), you'll find that I sometimes had to make long range shots and got only one hit for my trouble (in one case I fired all four bow and both stern tubes for one hit). Sometimes I targeted a T3 tanker and hit a cargo ship instead. On the other hand, I don't get DC'ed either. When I can get inside the screen and get a couple of clean kills, it almost always means that I found a reasonably safe way in: a flank escort was running a search pattern far away from the convoy that gave me an opening.

One thing to consider when making a flank attack once you have FaTs is to use them on a center target - like a tanker - running at depth for a magnetic keel shot. If you miss, there's a chance that you'll hit something. Best is if you have two tankers of the same type in column. Target the lead - if you miss it, chances are good that your ladder search will hit the trailing one. If the seas are rough, fire a two FaT spread at the lead tanker since you'll often get a mag torp failure under those conditions.

If you have acoustic torps - starting late '43 - then you can do some escort hunting but that should only be to facilitate your escape AFTER you've taken out a high-value target.

In the Altmeier Story (http://paulhager.org/wordpress/index.php?p=75), I frequently went after lone escorts. Generally, I did this when I thought the escort was likely to spot me and I wanted to avoid being DC'ed. Once you dive you are at the escort's mercy. That changes when you have the Type XXI but we can factor the Type XXI out of the equation, for the most part. Note that in that story, on the final patrol I did go after the escorts in order to make an attack on a CVE easier. But, I consider that a special case: I had a Type XXI.

ILikePortillos
01-17-2006, 09:11 AM
Here's what I've been doing recently and it seems to work. It's also pretty logical. I go silent, fire all my forward torpedoes, turn and fire my aft torpedoes, drop my periscope and dive for the middle of the yellow on my pressure gauge before turning parallel to the convoy and slowing to 1/3 speed. This will hopefully keep me quiet, running a parallel course, and hopefully masked under a thermal layer.

The important thing, in my opinion, is to get deep while your ship is in good shape. If you hang around at or under 25 meters and hope not to get caught, chances are they'll detect you and cause damage. Then diving deep is even more risky if your weakened structure can't handle the pressure.

lecek
01-17-2006, 10:31 AM
Don't shoot the escorts. That is a total waste unless you have the reality turned way down.

Once you have flooding you need to take care of that first as said. You WILL DIE if you don't take care of flooding. You MIGHT DIE if you are not silent. Don't be afraid to go flank to dodge wabos. Once they are dropping them on you (that close), you need to move anyway.

I think many ppl are too greedy per pass when taking on a convoy. I usually wipe the **** thing off the map. (Or turn it into a neutral convoy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) But it takes me as many as six passes through a convoy to do it. On each pass I try to hit as many ships in the same row as I can. This is because if you are in proper position perpendicular to the convoy and a gyro angle of 0 you can hit the whole row at once. All your torpedos hit within 3 seconds and you are on your way. Raid finnised. The escorts will be too late.

paulhager
01-17-2006, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by ILikePortillos:
Here's what I've been doing recently and it seems to work. It's also pretty logical. I go silent, fire all my forward torpedoes, turn and fire my aft torpedoes, drop my periscope and dive for the middle of the yellow on my pressure gauge before turning parallel to the convoy and slowing to 1/3 speed. This will hopefully keep me quiet, running a parallel course, and hopefully masked under a thermal layer.

The important thing, in my opinion, is to get deep while your ship is in good shape. If you hang around at or under 25 meters and hope not to get caught, chances are they'll detect you and cause damage. Then diving deep is even more risky if your weakened structure can't handle the pressure.

It appears you are describing a crash dive. I seldom do this and almost never get detected. In a recent Murmansk patrol there was an escort with a bead on me and I did crash dive -
released a decoy at 50 meters and went slow ahead when I hit 75-80, then leveled off at 150. That worked but the escorts were pinging like mad - fortunately it was directed at the decoy.

paulhager
01-17-2006, 11:10 AM
Originally posted by lecek:
Don't shoot the escorts. That is a total waste unless you have the reality turned way down.

Once you have flooding you need to take care of that first as said. You WILL DIE if you don't take care of flooding. You MIGHT DIE if you are not silent. Don't be afraid to go flank to dodge wabos. Once they are dropping them on you (that close), you need to move anyway.

I think many ppl are too greedy per pass when taking on a convoy. I usually wipe the **** thing off the map. (Or turn it into a neutral convoy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) But it takes me as many as six passes through a convoy to do it. On each pass I try to hit as many ships in the same row as I can. This is because if you are in proper position perpendicular to the convoy and a gyro angle of 0 you can hit the whole row at once. All your torpedos hit within 3 seconds and you are on your way. Raid finnised. The escorts will be too late.

I largely agree with this except that I preferentially target tankers. You can usually count on a couple of tankers in the same column which simplifies the targeting.

I suspect I'm less efficient in my targeting that this poster: from the 9 Murmansk patrols, I figure my hit rate on non-cripples is less than 50% - probably around 40%. On the other hand, if I did something like target the outer column of cargo ships, I'd probably sink none of them and maybe cripple one enough to slow it down. My experience with anything like that has always been bad. Of course, on the Murmansk patrols, I did have some timely Luftwaffe help to create some cripples for me. I still don't rule out the possibility of a 100K patrol in 1943 or 1944 if everything comes together.

maxpower2
01-17-2006, 12:33 PM
does the game simulate thermal layers?

ILikePortillos
01-17-2006, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by paulhager:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by ILikePortillos:
Here's what I've been doing recently and it seems to work. . .dive for the middle of the yellow on my pressure gauge before turning parallel to the convoy and slowing to 1/3 speed.


It appears you are describing a crash dive. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry about that. In reading my post, that is what it sounded like, but it's not what I meant. I should have said, once I release that aft torpedo, I begin a gradual descent to the middle of the yellow range. Hopefully by then, I've slipped beneath a thermal layer and they have a hard time finding me.

And yes to the other question posted by the other gentleman, thermal layers are simulated.

J_Weaver
01-17-2006, 05:51 PM
What exactly are thermal layers?

lecek
01-17-2006, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by paulhager:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lecek:
Don't shoot the escorts. That is a total waste unless you have the reality turned way down.

Once you have flooding you need to take care of that first as said. You WILL DIE if you don't take care of flooding. You MIGHT DIE if you are not silent. Don't be afraid to go flank to dodge wabos. Once they are dropping them on you (that close), you need to move anyway.

I think many ppl are too greedy per pass when taking on a convoy. I usually wipe the **** thing off the map. (Or turn it into a neutral convoy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) But it takes me as many as six passes through a convoy to do it. On each pass I try to hit as many ships in the same row as I can. This is because if you are in proper position perpendicular to the convoy and a gyro angle of 0 you can hit the whole row at once. All your torpedos hit within 3 seconds and you are on your way. Raid finnised. The escorts will be too late.

I largely agree with this except that I preferentially target tankers. You can usually count on a couple of tankers in the same column which simplifies the targeting.

I suspect I'm less efficient in my targeting that this poster: from the 9 Murmansk patrols, I figure my hit rate on non-cripples is less than 50% - probably around 40%. On the other hand, if I did something like target the outer column of cargo ships, I'd probably sink none of them and maybe cripple one enough to slow it down. My experience with anything like that has always been bad. Of course, on the Murmansk patrols, I did have some timely Luftwaffe help to create some cripples for me. I still don't rule out the possibility of a 100K patrol in 1943 or 1944 if everything comes together. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to clarify. I target rows not columns.

When targeting rows, you just sit and shoot as each ship in turn passes your 0 degree solution.

All the torpedos are heading straight out from the sub. Since all the ships are in perfect line abrest, all torpedos hit at about the same time automatically.

Usually there is one ship in a row you can't hit. For example if there are five rows or if you are making sure the tanker in row 3 is close. Also if a tanker is in coloumn 3, the ship in coloumn 4 will be hidded before he passes the 0 degree solution.

I also preferentially target tankers, I pick one ship in each row that I will make sure to nail when it passes. I don't do the rows in order, but instead in order of who has the biggest ships.

If I don't have enough torpedos and the tankers are in different rows (usually are)then I just go for the tankers.

paulhager
01-17-2006, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by lecek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by paulhager:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by lecek:
Don't shoot the escorts. That is a total waste unless you have the reality turned way down.

Once you have flooding you need to take care of that first as said. You WILL DIE if you don't take care of flooding. You MIGHT DIE if you are not silent. Don't be afraid to go flank to dodge wabos. Once they are dropping them on you (that close), you need to move anyway.

I think many ppl are too greedy per pass when taking on a convoy. I usually wipe the **** thing off the map. (Or turn it into a neutral convoy http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) But it takes me as many as six passes through a convoy to do it. On each pass I try to hit as many ships in the same row as I can. This is because if you are in proper position perpendicular to the convoy and a gyro angle of 0 you can hit the whole row at once. All your torpedos hit within 3 seconds and you are on your way. Raid finnised. The escorts will be too late.

I largely agree with this except that I preferentially target tankers. You can usually count on a couple of tankers in the same column which simplifies the targeting.

I suspect I'm less efficient in my targeting that this poster: from the 9 Murmansk patrols, I figure my hit rate on non-cripples is less than 50% - probably around 40%. On the other hand, if I did something like target the outer column of cargo ships, I'd probably sink none of them and maybe cripple one enough to slow it down. My experience with anything like that has always been bad. Of course, on the Murmansk patrols, I did have some timely Luftwaffe help to create some cripples for me. I still don't rule out the possibility of a 100K patrol in 1943 or 1944 if everything comes together. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just to clarify. I target rows not columns.

When targeting rows, you just sit and shoot as each ship in turn passes your 0 degree solution.

All the torpedos are heading straight out from the sub. Since all the ships are in perfect line abrest, all torpedos hit at about the same time automatically.

Usually there is one ship in a row you can't hit. For example if there are five rows or if you are making sure the tanker in row 3 is close. Also if a tanker is in coloumn 3, the ship in coloumn 4 will be hidded before he passes the 0 degree solution.

I also preferentially target tankers, I pick one ship in each row that I will make sure to nail when it passes. I don't do the rows in order, but instead in order of who has the biggest ships.

If I don't have enough torpedos and the tankers are in different rows (usually are)then I just go for the tankers. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah ... now I see. Yes, I tend to do something somewhat similar, depending on circumstances. I call it shooting at overlapping targets - ships in adjacent columns. This is particularly good when I go for impact pistol, shallow depth. FaT's work well for this also.

One problem with the Murmansk convoys is that they travel pretty fast - 12 knots. Unless I'm using a steam FaT set to 40 kts, the FaT will tend to lag behind the target though there's a good chance it will hit the trailing ship.

On high value targets, I like to fire triple or quad spreads. On the Murmansk convoy, that would be a 1.5 spread, 22 degree lead with 0 gyro angle when positioned at 90 degrees. Since the contact report - which I'm going to send to BdU in any case - also supplies the exact course, it's very easy to get to the 90 degree position. Having said all that, in what is my 10th Murmansk patrol, I have yet to see anything more valuable than a T3 tanker. Composition is pretty much the same: 16 ships in 4 columns, with two T3's and a T2. Usually there's a Liberty ship, 4 or 5 C3's and the rest C2's. Escorts vary somewhat though it appears that the lead DD is always a J-type. Starting in '43, this DD has radar but the other escorts, so far, don't.

ADDENDUM Regarding the spread shot, the actual angles are fractions (11 kts = 20.1; 12 kts = 21.8; 13 kts = 23.4 - this is for a 30 kt torpedo). I round everything since inputs really can't be more accurate that 0.5 degrees. Data is from my Torpedo Spread Excel spreadsheet.

Trydan
01-18-2006, 04:28 AM
Originally posted by J_Weaver:
What exactly are thermal layers? The seawater has a temperature which may change according to depth. For example, if you go to a lake, often the top few centimetres are warm, whereas the water deeper down is quite cold. The same applies in the ocean, and sometimes there are layers of different temperatures at different levels.

When the enemy is trying to detect you, they will "ping" and then listen for the echo of this accoustic signal off the hull of your U-Boat. However, if there is a change in the temperature of the water, the signal can be bent, absorbed or distorted, causing the reflection to appear to come from the wrong direction (or masking the reflection altogether).

If you dive below a thermal boundary, then your chances of not being detected (or mis-detected) improve. Obviously, the deeper you go, the better your chances, but diving deep is always a risk.

Ref: SH3 Community Manual (http://www.communitymanuals.com/shiii/index.php?title=Submerged)

Trydan
01-18-2006, 04:33 AM
Originally posted by paulhager:
ADDENDUM Regarding the spread shot, the actual angles are fractions (11 kts = 20.1; 12 kts = 21.8; 13 kts = 23.4 - this is for a 30 kt torpedo). I round everything since inputs really can't be more accurate that 0.5 degrees. Data is from my Torpedo Spread Excel spreadsheet. Er... wait a second... do you mean to imply that the spread angle should be a function of the target speed? I wouldn't have thought so; not for a fan salvo. A bead salvo is a function of the target speed and target length. A fan salvo (what you describe) is a function of the target length and target distance. That is, the angle should be proportional to the angle subtended by the target.

However, I'm curious to know what is in your torpedo-spread spreadsheet. Care to share it with us? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

paulhager
01-18-2006, 08:26 AM
Originally posted by Trydan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by paulhager:
ADDENDUM Regarding the spread shot, the actual angles are fractions (11 kts = 20.1; 12 kts = 21.8; 13 kts = 23.4 - this is for a 30 kt torpedo). I round everything since inputs really can't be more accurate that 0.5 degrees. Data is from my Torpedo Spread Excel spreadsheet. Er... wait a second... do you mean to imply that the spread angle should be a function of the target speed? I wouldn't have thought so; not for a fan salvo. A bead salvo is a function of the target speed and target length. A fan salvo (what you describe) is a function of the target length and target distance. That is, the angle should be proportional to the angle subtended by the target. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My terminology may be wrong but what I'm describing is a salvo intended to get at least one hit for speed variations (or estimate errors) of +- 1 knot. Of course, in the case of the Murmansk convoys, the BdU and my contact reports all agree that the speed is 12 knots.

The inclusion of this section was gratuitous and, upon reflection, not that relevant. I was sleepy when I made the post. As a practical matter, I don't do that sort of targeting on Murmansk convoys precisely because I always know what the speed is. However, if one were guestimating the speed, my approach is a good one to use.



However, I'm curious to know what is in your torpedo-spread spreadsheet. Care to share it with us? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/10.gif

I did a couple of speadsheets a few months ago. One shows spread angle versus distance to target that gives the distance between the torpedos at the target. The other is the angle offset for 90 degree shots as a function of torpedo and target speed. I use four torpedo speeds (24, 30, 40, 44) and target speeds of 1 knot and then 6-25 knots. When I made that 9400 meter sonor shot on the CVE I describe in the Altmeier story, I was relying on the tables. Apparently one torpedo from the spread actually hit but didn't go off.