PDA

View Full Version : Holy charge? ... anything else for the Hero to do on the battlefield?



Salventus
09-07-2005, 08:17 PM
Is there anything else that the Hero can do then charge the enemy on the battlefield? Ya off course there's casting spells but what about other combat abilities. Cause it's pretty lame having only holy charge!? any ideas?

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-07-2005, 08:22 PM
Uh...yeah. So far it appears that there are LOTS of hero abilities. Thus far we've seen Diplomacy, Encourage, Holy Charge, Pathfinding, Prayer, Protection, Estates, and a few others we don't know the names for yet. As for which ones can be used in combat....my guess would be Encourage, Holy Charge, Prayer, and Protection. We also know that the Inferno hero also has an attack-ability. We just don't know the name for it yet.

Salventus
09-07-2005, 08:41 PM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
Uh...yeah. So far it appears that there are LOTS of hero abilities. Thus far we've seen Diplomacy, Encourage, Holy Charge, Pathfinding, Prayer, Protection, Estates, and a few others we don't know the names for yet. As for which ones can be used in combat....my guess would be Encourage, Holy Charge, Prayer, and Protection. We also know that the Inferno hero also has an attack-ability. We just don't know the name for it yet.

Yeah and what would encourage do? increase morale? doubt it. Since there are already alot of morale modifiers in the game like spells, external moral modifiers, artifacts which can be cumulitive too. So on top of that there is encourage? don't think it's a good idea unless they modify it. Then you have prayer, so does this mean that prayer is now an ability rather than a spell? what's the difference??? On we go to protection, does this mean that protection is now an ability rather than a spell? Do you get the point Chucky!! Are they insulting our intelligence? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif Once those were spells and now there abilities, big **** deal. I wonder what spells they have to replace those?

Lord_Crusader
09-07-2005, 08:49 PM
they already said that will be one kind of attack abilitie for each hero class... I don't think the demon hero will have holy charge...

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-07-2005, 08:55 PM
@Salventus

Okay, first off your reply seems very condescending to me. Hopefully this wasn't intentional. So I'll ignore that aspect of it.

Next, what exactly would you LIKE the heroes to do? Oh wait...nevermind. You're one of those H4 fanatics right? You want them on the battlefield taking damage and inflicting damage like a regular unit. Guess what...THEY AREN'T REGULAR UNITS. I know that taking heroes off the battlefield has disappointed many h4 fans. But with all the hundreds of posts I've seen about how the H4 method was so much better, I've yet to see a suggestion on how to implement it so it actually WORKS. Because it simply didn't work in h4. The idea was sound, but the implemetation was horrible. Heroes at the beginning were pitifully weak, but after a little while, you didn't even need to carry troops with you. It made the towns, troops, and resources pretty much redundant.

But like I said, we've seen only this small fraction of hero "abilities"....there could be MANY more of them. Toss out some ideas of what you'd like to see heroes do on the battlefield. You might just strike home with a few of them. Personally, other than direct damage, spell casting, and troop enhancing I don't see much else that they COULD do. Any ideas?

~edit~ and by the way, note that these new "modified spells" that we're going to be calling hero abilities don't cost any spell points, aren't dependant on spell power, and aren't effected by skill levels. So yes, there ARE some differences.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-07-2005, 09:03 PM
Encourage....yeah, I think it'll be a morale increasing ability. Not every hero will get Leadership, not every hero will have a morale artifact or visit a morale increasing location. So it's not useless. It's not very inventive either, but its not certain that it will be related to morale either. Who knows.

Prayer...sure, it COULD be like the spell. But then again, it COULD be more like a summoning spell. Your hero prays to his dragon-god and summons the dragon's physical form onto the battlefield to assist the hero or to whisk the hero away from danger. Who knows.

At this point, it's all speculation. No point in complaining about it until we know what IT is.

Dregonar
09-07-2005, 09:08 PM
If they are not affected by spell power they wil be affected by attack. And what the difference between attack holy charge and some holy word? Spell points? Big deal. Yeah, but won't it be boring if you do the same thing every turn? They said ONE ability. But if, like, a barbarian could improve morale/bloodlust/attack with jump/etc. it would have been fun. And why can't a hero be a unit? Just balance it out, that's all. I don't get why someone can't hit a hero.

Salventus
09-07-2005, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
@Salventus

Okay, first off your reply seems very condescending to me. Hopefully this wasn't intentional. So I'll ignore that aspect of it.

Next, what exactly would you LIKE the heroes to do? Oh wait...nevermind. You're one of those H4 fanatics right? You want them on the battlefield taking damage and inflicting damage like a regular unit. Guess what...THEY AREN'T REGULAR UNITS.
~edit~ and by the way, note that these new "modified spells" that we're going to be calling hero abilities don't cost any spell points, aren't dependant on spell power, and aren't effected by skill levels. So yes, there ARE some differences.

Heroes on the battlefield like H4? please? don't be ridiculous... I've spent lots of time in forums argueing against it. But in H5, they should have more combat maneuvers then holy charge. Example...

1. Double charge = charges twice on the horse in the same action.
2. Snake charge = hits twice in the same action.
3. Tornado charge = hits multiple targets in the same action.
etc...

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-07-2005, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by Dregonar:
If they are not affected by spell power they wil be affected by attack. And what the difference between attack holy charge and some holy word? Spell points? Big deal. Yeah, but won't it be boring if you do the same thing every turn? They said ONE ability. But if, like, a barbarian could improve morale/bloodlust/attack with jump/etc. it would have been fun. And why can't a hero be a unit? Just balance it out, that's all. I don't get why someone can't hit a hero.

As for what abilities are "affected" by....I truthfully don't know. I'd guess they'd increase in power based on the heroes level. But it could just be a static ability and not change throughout the game. We'll have to wait and find out on that one.

You said "They said ONE ability"....WHO said that and where? Heroes can have multiple abilities from what I can see. We've only seen the one (holy charge) portrayed in the videos thus far though.

Why can't a hero be a unit? I don't know. Sure, they COULD be. But why? Shouldn't they be different from regular units to such a degree that it's a recognizable difference? If they were just like units, why even have these spell casting units (heroes) when I can simply choose Archmages or Genies or whatever instead? They SHOULD be different from regular units. As to how much different....I don't have the answer to that one. But the answer that Heroes 4 provided was an incorrect answer to say the least.

Why can't you HIT a hero? Well, that means you have to give heroes hit points, then you have to have those hit points increase with the heroes levels, etc, etc, etc. Just like with Heroes 4. But unfortunately, just like with Heroes 4, those heroes end up becoming so powerful that they become one-man-armies. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. But someone would need to come up with a solution to the problems that this one little addition would cause. If your hero died in combat...what happens to the troops? Do they die as well, or do we have to have heroless armies again? What about multiple heroes in one army? This one little change in the fabric of the heroes games altered the game so drastically that it caused an untold number of problems. If someone can come up with a workable solution that lets heroes come onto the battlefield like a regular unit AND STILL keep the game balanced and fun...then I'm all for it. But I've yet to see ANYONE propose such a solution.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-07-2005, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by Salventus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
@Salventus

Okay, first off your reply seems very condescending to me. Hopefully this wasn't intentional. So I'll ignore that aspect of it.

Next, what exactly would you LIKE the heroes to do? Oh wait...nevermind. You're one of those H4 fanatics right? You want them on the battlefield taking damage and inflicting damage like a regular unit. Guess what...THEY AREN'T REGULAR UNITS.
~edit~ and by the way, note that these new "modified spells" that we're going to be calling hero abilities don't cost any spell points, aren't dependant on spell power, and aren't effected by skill levels. So yes, there ARE some differences.

Heroes on the battlefield like H4? please? don't be ridiculous... I've spent lots of time in forums argueing against it. But in H5, they should have more combat maneuvers then holy charge. Example...

1. Double charge = charges twice on the horse in the same action.
2. Snake charge = hits twice in the same action.
3. Tornado charge = hits multiple targets in the same action.
etc... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, sorry. I didn't take the time to go back and read your posts on the subject of heroes on the battlefield so from that first post I assumed too much. My bad.

As for your suggestions...those are certainly possibilities. Who knows, maybe these abilities change or alter as you advance in levels. Maybe after level 20, your holy charge strikes all undead/inferno units simultaneously. I also wouldn't be surprised to see a double casting ability. 2 spells per round. (hopefully NOT, this would be difficult to balance/counteract). I'm just saying that it's fairly obvious that there will be many skills and abilities we've never seen in Heroes before. I'm actually looking forward to that aspect quite a bit. Seems rather intriguing to me. :O)

Vlaadimir
09-08-2005, 04:47 AM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:


Heroes can have multiple abilities from what I can see. We've only seen the one (holy charge) portrayed in the videos thus far though.
Holy Charge is the same as the Titan's Thunder spell. Other "combat abilities" so far are nothing but spells that cost 0 spell points; some mass/expert, some not. I agree we should wait and see though. I wish I was wrong...!


Why can't a hero be a unit? I don't know. Sure, they COULD be. But why?
Because that's what heroes do - fight in battles. This is not "Generals of Might and Magic" or "Spellcasters of Might and Magic". Because the RPG elements were a great addition, just like in other recent TBS titles.


Shouldn't they be different from regular units to such a degree that it's a recognizable difference? If they were just like units, why even have these spell casting units (heroes) when I can simply choose Archmages or Genies or whatever instead? They SHOULD be different from regular units. As to how much different....
Heroes in H4 WERE different - they were able to gain experience, choose different leveling paths, carry artifacts etc.

Why can't you HIT a hero? Well, that means you have to give heroes hit points, then you have to have those hit points increase with the heroes levels, etc, etc, etc. Just like with Heroes 4. But unfortunately, just like with Heroes 4, those heroes end up becoming so powerful that they become one-man-armies. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. But someone would need to come up with a solution to the problems that this one little addition would cause.
Give lower bonuses for every level? Get rid of immortality potions? Limit potions to low level heroes? Limit heroes to level 10 or 20, like in Warcraft?


If your hero died in combat...what happens to the troops? Do they die as well, or do we have to have heroless armies again? What about multiple heroes in one army?
Like in Disciples 2, leave the dead hero on the adventure field, but put a small skull above him (flag him dead), decrease his party's movement, disable him from casting spells and giving stat bonuses to his creatures in combat?

Dregonar
09-08-2005, 04:54 AM
All right said!

Dark_Magiks
09-08-2005, 05:09 AM
Well I think another alternative will be that some of these abilities will only have a small bonus but be passive. That is that they dont require any activation and are just constantly in effect or are triggered by certain things (like say a counter spell ability, 5-10% to counter a spell that an opponent casts)

Also I think this ability will take into count of other creatures abilities, and maybe even count defence (like balista/towers in H3). Also it could have the "charge" characteristic meaning zombies and squires will take significantly less.

Just a few thoughts

Val-Gaav
09-08-2005, 05:33 AM
Originally posted by Vlaadimir:

Because that's what heroes do - fight in battles. This is not "Generals of Might and Magic" or "Spellcasters of Might and Magic". Because the RPG elements were a great addition, just like in other recent TBS titles.

Please then go play those other recent TBS .... Also how many TBS games has a hero that is not fighting directly in combat (only homm?) ??
I want to play this kind of game where hero is just as in h1/h2/h3 off the battlefield giving powerups and bonuses to his troops .
Do not be selfish . I know many people who prefer hero off combat TBS and there is only one game like that.
...........
I will put it simple "I will not buy HoMM if heroes are directly in combat like in h4"

Why the hero in combat is so important to some people ? Killing 6 black dragons with a kick is so much fun ?


Originally posted by Vlaadimir:
Because that's what heroes do - fight in battles.

Becouse heroes were always off the battlefield in hommm games ... Only in h4 they were active and for me h4 is not a homm game .

If you wish rename the title to "Generals of might and magic" but leave the heroes off combat

borkil-13
09-08-2005, 05:34 AM
Heroes below on the side line, wait up before you all fire up at me, i was one of the crowd saying yeah heroes fighting and gaining exp. No no and no they where ethier too **** or to powerful but not that powerful as i used to ulways target them and with about 10 thunderbirds or 5 blackdragons u could take out the strongest hero in a turn with immortality potions or not. heroes three was great heroes 4 was dissapoiting heroes are there to blooster your troops not be one.

Miss the fortress, good old gorgons

loonyjoe
09-08-2005, 10:11 AM
those are some ideas of mine for the abilities ( rather a rough version, didn't thought very much of it, so be politehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) :

encourage: as seen in the gc video, nightmares have no retaliatation ability (as probably vampires and some other units will have) so maybe this ability neglects this effect? for one or all units...although looks also a bit like a spell...but it could be made passive, i mean it's autocasted at the beginning of the battle on selected unit or is always active...

protection: could assign hero to defend a single unit in the next round, so that it would get no damage or half or some percentage of it...hey, he's a mighty hero after all... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i bet he's able to defend his poor and innocent..well, murderers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and if that unit wasn't attacked in that turn, well, your bad; you lost your turnhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

others:

could give second attack to a single unit...although it seems quite unbalancing...(personally i don't care...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )

could lead a single unit to attack taking command for a single round giving them large stat/morale/luck bonus, but for this round other units would get no bonuses as they would if he was standing behind them- just like if they had no hero. and if the stack with the hero dies, this situation (i mean getting no bonuses for other units) lasts until the end of the battle {let's assume he was unconcious, or drank immortality potion or whatever- heroes never died anyway- in h3 you could buy them in tavern after some time...)

just my wicked ideas http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-08-2005, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Vlaadimir:
Holy Charge is the same as the Titan's Thunder spell. Other "combat abilities" so far are nothing but spells that cost 0 spell points; some mass/expert, some not. I agree we should wait and see though. I wish I was wrong...!


You are correct about the waiting and seeing part. Because we simply DON'T know what these abilities do and don't do. Who says they're simply spells at 0 mana? That's just a guess. So is the "some mass/expert, some not". We've seen NO indication of that at all.



Because that's what heroes do - fight in battles. This is not "Generals of Might and Magic" or "Spellcasters of Might and Magic". Because the RPG elements were a great addition, just like in other recent TBS titles.

Because that's what heroes do? Where? You mean in literature/history? In this particular series, heroes did NOT fight in battles, the hero's armies did. Until H4 of course. There isn't anything stopping Ubisoft/Nival from adding RPG elements. In fact they've stated that they HAVE added some. But there have been MANY heroes in literature and history that never fought a single battle....just led them to victory. If you want heroes fighting the battles, then I vote we simply eliminate all the troops and make it a bunch of one-on-one battles. Oh wait, we've got HUNDREDS of games like that on the market. *sigh* This is just one aspect of HoMM games that sets them apart from the rest of the pack. In a good way MANY believe.



Heroes in H4 WERE different - they were able to gain experience, choose different leveling paths, carry artifacts etc.


They were also game-breaking aspects in the same way that Town Portal/Dimension Door/Fly were game-breaking spells in h3. Once you got a hero to a decent level, the map was over and done with. Also, if I recall correctly, weren't units also allowed to carry artifacts? And with the user-mods they could gain exp too I've heard. (I've never played them so I can't attest to that part though).



Give lower bonuses for every level? Get rid of immortality potions? Limit potions to low level heroes? Limit heroes to level 10 or 20, like in Warcraft?


So you want to keep the heroes weaker than the regular units? In some cases that should be true. But balancing that would simply be a nightmare. Immortality potions were a last second quick fix for H4 to ease the problem of fragile heroes at the beginning of a map. But the use of them were ridiculous. Besides, what's a potion but just another type of spell.....as you seem to think hero Abilities are. Take your pick...do you want potions or abilities?



Like in Disciples 2, leave the dead hero on the adventure field, but put a small skull above him (flag him dead), decrease his party's movement, disable him from casting spells and giving stat bonuses to his creatures in combat?


So, pretty much do exactly what they did in Heroes 4? Because that's exactly what they did. But in order to do this, you've now got units moving on the battlefield without a hero (living hero). So now that opens up the sluice gate on the whole units-without-heroes debacle. I'm sorry, I simply don't see an easy way to incorporate the two systems and have them flow smoothly. It seems to me that the majority of the people who complain about Heroes being off the battlefield again are the ones who would've rather seen Ubisoft base H5 off of the base model of Heroes 4 instead of Heroes 3. Well, to answer THAT particular debate, I suggest you read the 3 part article on Celestial Heavens by Corribus(Timothy Duncan). I've been a strong proponent of everything he states in that article for quite a long time. I doubt very much that it will change many peoples opinions, but then again, the rabid h4 fans who are ranting and raving about the missing h4 features are a pretty closed-minded bunch. Not all of them, but a rather large portion of them. *sigh*

Salventus
09-08-2005, 01:04 PM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/353.gif
This isn't suppose to be a debate of heroes off or on battlefield combat. It's suppose to be a discussion or a possible explanation of the abilities vs skills that Chucky posted on his site for H5.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-08-2005, 01:11 PM
Sorry Salventus. These things have a life of their own. Your original post was "Holy Charge?...anything else for the Hero to do on the battlefield?" So it's quite natural to have that go off onto the "Hero on the Battlefield" portion of the topic. And considering that particular topic...it's gonna be pretty tough to control it completely.

MysticPhoenixDW
09-08-2005, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
If someone can come up with a workable solution that lets heroes come onto the battlefield like a regular unit AND STILL keep the game balanced and fun...then I'm all for it. But I've yet to see ANYONE propose such a solution.

[...]

And with the user-mods they could gain exp too I've heard. (I've never played them so I can't attest to that part though).

Well, Chuckles, you should have tried it. Although I'm againt heroes on the battlefield, the commander introduced in WoG wasn't such a bad idea. They were hero-like units (limited to one per army) which didn't die by a punch of a peasant in the beginning and were quite strong in late games (however not strong enough to kill horde of black dragons).

So they were not not too unbalancing. However, they were just aother type of army, you still had your regular hero like in normal hero games. But that could be some kind of approach Nival could try implementing in Heroes VI.

Dregonar
09-08-2005, 01:44 PM
What is WOG?

Zamolxis108
09-08-2005, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Salventus:
Is there anything else that the Hero can do then charge the enemy on the battlefield? Ya off course there's casting spells but what about other combat abilities. Cause it's pretty lame having only holy charge!? any ideas?
He also has the "Dance to cheer the army" ability, which is pretty nicely implemented. There are some final coregraphic finishing touches to be done, and then they'll present it to us in the next demo video. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Zamolxis108
09-08-2005, 02:00 PM
Originally posted by Dregonar:
What is WOG?
Short from In the Wake of Gods, also known as Heroes of Might and Magic 3.5, the un-official patch to Shadow of Death, created by fans, which in time actually developed into a real add-on, that makes (somehow) the link between H3 and H4 (hence the name H3.5), by introducing commanders in the armies, which act (more or less) like the heroes in H4: they gain experience, abilities, have primary and secondary skills etc. WoG also has some H4 creatures (Nightmare, Sorceress) and a lot of partially or totally new ones, including level 8 creatures for each alignment. There's also a fully equiped new town (Neutral town) already available, and now they are working on another (11th): The Desert Town (name is not sure, but the theme and specific terrain si desert).

loonyjoe
09-08-2005, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Salventus:
Is there anything else that the Hero can do then charge the enemy on the battlefield? Ya off course there's casting spells but what about other combat abilities. Cause it's pretty lame having only holy charge!? any ideas?
well, apart from what i have already written, what could a hero possibly do on a battlefield? begin to sing? what else was he doing while being on the battlefield in hiv? wasting movement and health points...and charging...that is basicly what he's doing now, except he does not loose his life and time while getting to the units he wants to strike...

Yur_Ko
09-08-2005, 02:21 PM
So far I think that Ubi plans these abilities instead of assigning spells to an alignment. That is we might not see 'Prayer' or 'encourage' spells - only abilities that are race specific.

Thus we'll have a bunch of common spells and a bunch of race specific abilities (costless spells). And so Ubi kills three birds with one stone - we have race specific spells and common ones... and smth new in the game http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Shredst0r
09-08-2005, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by loonyjoe:
those are some ideas of mine for the abilities ( rather a rough version, didn't thought very much of it, so be politehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) :

encourage: as seen in the gc video, nightmares have no retaliatation ability (as probably vampires and some other units will have) so maybe this ability neglects this effect? for one or all units...although looks also a bit like a spell...but it could be made passive, i mean it's autocasted at the beginning of the battle on selected unit or is always active...

protection: could assign hero to defend a single unit in the next round, so that it would get no damage or half or some percentage of it...hey, he's a mighty hero after all... http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i bet he's able to defend his poor and innocent..well, murderers http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif and if that unit wasn't attacked in that turn, well, your bad; you lost your turnhttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

others:

could give second attack to a single unit...although it seems quite unbalancing...(personally i don't care...http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )

could lead a single unit to attack taking command for a single round giving them large stat/morale/luck bonus, but for this round other units would get no bonuses as they would if he was standing behind them- just like if they had no hero. and if the stack with the hero dies, this situation (i mean getting no bonuses for other units) lasts until the end of the battle {let's assume he was unconcious, or drank immortality potion or whatever- heroes never died anyway- in h3 you could buy them in tavern after some time...)

just my wicked ideas http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

i like some of these ideas. this shows that the heroes universe can offer a plenty of useful and logical abilities/skills which can work together or counteract eachother, similar to the "magic the gathering" card game which also has a great tactical potential. the decisive point is to implement them well so i hope ubi/nival does a great job on it. so far it looks good but we haven´t seen much about how abilities work so we can´t say.

Dregonar
09-08-2005, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Zamolxis108:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Dregonar:
What is WOG?
Short from In the Wake of Gods, also known as Heroes of Might and Magic 3.5, the un-official patch to Shadow of Death, created by fans, which in time actually developed into a real add-on, that makes (somehow) the link between H3 and H4 (hence the name H3.5), by introducing commanders in the armies, which act (more or less) like the heroes in H4: they gain experience, abilities, have primary and secondary skills etc. WoG also has some H4 creatures (Nightmare, Sorceress) and a lot of partially or totally new ones, including level 8 creatures for each alignment. There's also a fully equiped new town (Neutral town) already available, and now they are working on another (11th): The Desert Town (name is not sure, but the theme and specific terrain si desert). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, I never heard of it! Is it for buying or simply downloading? And the desert town, that can't be Egypt!? I love Egypt.

Zamolxis108
09-08-2005, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by Dregonar:
Wow, I never heard of it! Is it for buying or simply downloading? And the desert town, that can't be Egypt!? I love Egypt.
Main downloading page. (http://www.strategyplanet.com/homm/wog/download.shtml)

Discussion about the new town. (http://www.forumplanet.com/StrategyPlanet/homm/topic.asp?fid=4166&tid=1591172&p=1)

Dregonar
09-08-2005, 03:55 PM
That is going to install forever...

How come there is Russian available?

Zamolxis108
09-08-2005, 04:39 PM
For me it didn't take more than 5 mins to instal.

It's also Russian, because the team that developed it is mainly Russian, if I'm not mistaken. At least the "brains" (and heart) behind the project is a Russian guy, Slava, that I actually never saw on English forums (unless his hiding under I have no idea what nick even here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-08-2005, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by MysticPhoenixDW:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
If someone can come up with a workable solution that lets heroes come onto the battlefield like a regular unit AND STILL keep the game balanced and fun...then I'm all for it. But I've yet to see ANYONE propose such a solution.

[...]

And with the user-mods they could gain exp too I've heard. (I've never played them so I can't attest to that part though).

Well, Chuckles, you should have tried it. Although I'm againt heroes on the battlefield, the commander introduced in WoG wasn't such a bad idea. They were hero-like units (limited to one per army) which didn't die by a punch of a peasant in the beginning and were quite strong in late games (however not strong enough to kill horde of black dragons).

So they were not not too unbalancing. However, they were just aother type of army, you still had your regular hero like in normal hero games. But that could be some kind of approach Nival could try implementing in Heroes VI. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I looked it (and Equilibris) over and it just felt....I guess "wrong" would be the best word. There were so many things that didn't seem to FIT into the world NWC created. So I decided to keep it simple and leave the game the way it was meant to be. Nothing against the creators of WoG or EQ...just not my cup of tea.

Hodge_Podge
09-08-2005, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:

Well, I looked it (and Equilibris) over and it just felt....I guess "wrong" would be the best word. There were so many things that didn't seem to FIT into the world NWC created. So I decided to keep it simple and leave the game the way it was meant to be. Nothing against the creators of WoG or EQ...just not my cup of tea.

I can't speak for WoG because I've never installed it; but as for Equilibris, the Heroes IV addon, it is fantastic! I believe if NWC would have had more time and resources to complete & polish up the game before release, Heroes IV would've been as well received as Heroes III.

While Equilibris can't fix the broken AI, it does address many issues & bugs and balances the alignments much better than the original game does.

I believe Equilibris pays an honorable tribute to NWC €¦ with all the fine work & creative innovations Dalai, Lost & the rest of the team have given to us Heroes IV fans. I'm looking very forward to their next release.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-08-2005, 06:57 PM
Well, like I said, it's nothing against the makers of those add-ons. It's simply not to my tastes. Several of the things added with Equilibris for example just add more clutter to an already over-cluttered adventure map that we had in H4. While I had extremely high hopes for h4, I was COMPLETELY disappointed by it. It had no soul. It had nothing in it that made me want to come back for more. The addictive quality was simply gone. I gave it ample opportunity to capture me. I've played every campaign to it's finish (including both expansion packs), I've played every NWC included map on multiple difficulty settings. I played this game religiously for about 6 to 8 months. And when I mean religiously, I'm talking at LEAST 6 hours a day. It simply didn't have that un-identifiable quality that h1, h2 and h3 all possesed. I NEVER found myself getting caught up in that "just one more turn" syndrome that we all know and remember from the earlier games. So with all that in mind, I was even LESS tempted to try Equilibris than WoG. Truthfully, I doubt that I ever will. I downloaded and installed both of them just to look them over firsthand but nothing really captured my attention as to feeling authentic.

I'm glad you liked it. I'm just sorry that it took a bunch of fans to actually make the game into what you think it should've been.

Vlaadimir
09-09-2005, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Zamolxis108:
... Slava, that I actually never saw on English forums (unless his hiding under I have no idea what nick even here http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

His online nick is "zvse" ... guess why! LOL

st14z
09-09-2005, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by Hodge_Podge:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:

Well, I looked it (and Equilibris) over and it just felt....I guess "wrong" would be the best word. There were so many things that didn't seem to FIT into the world NWC created. So I decided to keep it simple and leave the game the way it was meant to be. Nothing against the creators of WoG or EQ...just not my cup of tea.

I can't speak for WoG because I've never installed it; but as for Equilibris, the Heroes IV addon, it is fantastic! I believe if NWC would have had more time and resources to complete & polish up the game before release, Heroes IV would've been as well received as Heroes III.

While Equilibris can't fix the broken AI, it does address many issues & bugs and balances the alignments much better than the original game does.

I believe Equilibris pays an honorable tribute to NWC €¦ with all the fine work & creative innovations Dalai, Lost & the rest of the team have given to us Heroes IV fans. I'm looking very forward to their next release. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I second that http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif

Heroine_LL
09-09-2005, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I downloaded and installed both of them just to look them over firsthand but nothing really captured my attention as to feeling authentic.

Just curious (and intrigued because you don't like it), have you tried wog 3.58F?
(sorry salventus for being off topic, I don't mean to AnGer You)

chavv
09-09-2005, 02:40 AM
Originally posted by Zamolxis108:
WoG also has some H4 creatures (Nightmare, Sorceress) hmmm slightly offtopic , i may be wrong but i think nightmare is in fact a WoG creature which was later taken to H4 world. I remember playing WoG before H4 came out and there was nightmare... and the picture was same

st14z
09-09-2005, 03:25 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/34.gif

Originally posted by chavv:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Zamolxis108:
WoG also has some H4 creatures (Nightmare, Sorceress) hmmm slightly offtopic , i may be wrong but i think nightmare is in fact a WoG creature which was later taken to H4 world. I remember playing WoG before H4 came out and there was nightmare... and the picture was same </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this a joke?

PeXalot
09-09-2005, 05:24 AM
since i know what holly charge does i think this skill is extreamly usefull only knight can get it (at least it was in alpha like that)
cose if ur a knight u make your might higher not magic
and becouse of that it ownz
it has 0 spell points cost so its a good skill

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-09-2005, 08:30 AM
Originally posted by Heroine_LL:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:
I downloaded and installed both of them just to look them over firsthand but nothing really captured my attention as to feeling authentic.

Just curious (and intrigued because you don't like it), have you tried wog 3.58F?
(sorry salventus for being off topic, I don't mean to AnGer You) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.strategyplanet.com/homm/wog/img/wog/battle2.jpg

THIS is the sort of thing that I just can't stand. These units look ridiculous IMO. A lot of the new buildings and dwellings just don't look like they fit in. Or they look pasted in from another picture from the game. Like they take the artifact merchant in the Tower and plaster it on the adventure map and call it something else. I just don't see the need for it. The new heroes (commanders) also seem out of place. To me, it's sort of like someone painting a new hairstyle on the Mona Lisa just because it's more up-to-date and in fashion. Sometimes its best to leave a masterpiece alone.

I'm not saying they don't have some good ideas, but just because it's a good idea doesn't mean it will fit in well with other good ideas. If it's taken into consideration when you're originally designing the game then it'll be made sure to fit in with the other features. That doesn't happen with these add-ons. But to each his own.

C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s
09-09-2005, 08:32 AM
Originally posted by PeXalot:
since i know what holly charge does i think this skill is extreamly usefull only knight can get it (at least it was in alpha like that)
cose if ur a knight u make your might higher not magic
and becouse of that it ownz
it has 0 spell points cost so its a good skill

Do you REALLY want to be admitting on the official forums that you've played their stolen game? Think people...THINK.

Heroine_LL
09-09-2005, 02:23 PM
@chuck about wog.
Okay, I can understand why you don't like this mod. But I just wanted to know if you actually played the latest version?
Want to say more but never mind, I'll send you a pm later as this is totally off topic.

FlameSkyDiver
09-09-2005, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:Why can't you HIT a hero? Well, that means you have to give heroes hit points, then you have to have those hit points increase with the heroes levels, etc, etc, etc. Just like with Heroes 4. But unfortunately, just like with Heroes 4, those heroes end up becoming so powerful that they become one-man-armies. I'm not saying it's a bad idea. But someone would need to come up with a solution to the problems that this one little addition would cause. If your hero died in combat...what happens to the troops? Do they die as well, or do we have to have heroless armies again? What about multiple heroes in one army? This one little change in the fabric of the heroes games altered the game so drastically that it caused an untold number of problems. If someone can come up with a workable solution that lets heroes come onto the battlefield like a regular unit AND STILL keep the game balanced and fun...then I'm all for it. But I've yet to see ANYONE propose such a solution.

Actually, I don't see that as a big problem myself: imagine this:
1. all armies must have only ONE hero and they may but don't have to include creatures.
2. during combat, you cannot deal damage to a hero unless he is the last living* unit of the enemy army, however, you can affect the hero with negative spells, just not damage-spells
* this means that in-combat summoned/animated/restored units do not count - to prevent continuous summoning/animating
3. the hero development basically focusses on skills that provide the hero with abilities/spells, by default the hero increases his hit points and attack/defense skills by level and perhaps certain artifacts.
4. less hero-combat-boosting artifacts, more artifacts boosting hero's abilities he affects his troops with.
5. 2Xth level hero in this system should be roughly as strong (in damage, health etc) as Xth level hero in H4
6. the hero can still travel all alone without an army, but due to his powers being limited, this hero wouldn't be that resistant and powerful and wouldn't be able to easily win battles alone, still, with abilities such as stealth and for various artifacts distribution cases, this can be useful, but definitely you cannot gain experience from stealth

Now magic heroes will most likely focuss on spells in this system, while might heroes will increase the stats of their creatures, earn money, scout etc. Perhaps at higher levels, the might heroes might (:P) get the chance to fight in the battle without the "last man standing" condition. So magic heroes can deal damage through spells and increase the stats of the creatures through spells, while might heroes can increase the stats of the creatures through skills (tactics etc.) and abilities (perhaps something like a "war song", "inspiring speech" etc) and do non-combat map things, such as producing money, increasing the creature growth.

the.wicked
09-09-2005, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by FlameSkyDiver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:Why can't you HIT a hero....

Actually, I don't see that as a big problem myself: imagine this:
1. all armies must have only ONE hero and they may but don't have to include creatures.
2. during combat, you cannot deal damage to a hero unless he is the last living* unit of the enemy army, however, you can affect the hero with negative spells, just not damage-spells
* this means that in-combat summoned/animated/restored units do not count - to prevent continuous summoning/animating </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
hmmhmm ... don't think its good - it will get to the ponit of killing first all of creatures then in the end hero ... where's freedom of choice ??

3. the hero development basically focusses on skills that provide the hero with abilities/spells, by default the hero increases his hit points and attack/defense skills by level and perhaps certain artifacts.
ok, but what with creatures ?? atack/defens would affect them, or just hero ?? as I guess, even balancing of hp would be hard enough.


4. less hero-combat-boosting artifacts, more artifacts boosting hero's abilities he affects his troops with.
ok

5. 2Xth level hero in this system should be roughly as strong (in damage, health etc) as Xth level hero in H4
6. the hero can still travel all alone without an army, but due to his powers being limited, this hero wouldn't be that resistant and powerful and wouldn't be able to easily win battles alone, still, with abilities such as stealth and for various artifacts distribution cases, this can be useful, but definitely you cannot gain experience from stealth

imo - no use of stealth skill, things are guarded to make you fight for them, besides, as i look at HoMM V, it could be easly prevent just by blocking with creature only path.


Now magic heroes will most likely focuss on spells in this system, while might heroes will increase the stats of their creatures, earn money, scout etc. Perhaps at higher levels, the might heroes might (:P) get the chance to fight in the battle without the "last man standing" condition. So magic heroes can deal damage through spells and increase the stats of the creatures through spells, while might heroes can increase the stats of the creatures through skills (tactics etc.) and abilities (perhaps something like a "war song", "inspiring speech" etc) and do non-combat map things, such as producing money, increasing the creature growth.

in HoMM 3 you also can make might or magic hero, without placing him on the battlefield.

IMO - as i look at alpha screens, i guess the abbilitis will depend in some point from skills (eg. diplomacy - when you have ladership skill, holy charge - when you have some fighting skill(helmet))
my hope about holy charge is that they don't make somthing stupid with it (eg. like with blood from skeletons, eg. maybe charging trough fortifications http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif)

Dark_Magiks
09-09-2005, 07:07 PM
OMFG people with the alpha stop posting that (A) you have used it and (B) spoilers from it. That fact you just stated sounds very interesting and cool, however it has not been announced by ubi and may not be in the beta (or final) so please do not post spoilers.. EVER

Heroine_LL
09-09-2005, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Mike447a:
I'm feeling better http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Good for you, but please, next time you feel bad, get laid! Sounds like you need it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Dark_Magiks
09-10-2005, 12:21 AM
HAHAHA, yeah.

He makes a good point though, we do keep seeing the same **** over and over. Just with minor variations in gameplay or something http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I cant wait for all the new info to be released.

FlameSkyDiver
09-10-2005, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by the.wicked:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by FlameSkyDiver:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by C_h_u_c_k_l_e_s:Why can't you HIT a hero....

Actually, I don't see that as a big problem myself: imagine this:
1. all armies must have only ONE hero and they may but don't have to include creatures.
2. during combat, you cannot deal damage to a hero unless he is the last living* unit of the enemy army, however, you can affect the hero with negative spells, just not damage-spells
* this means that in-combat summoned/animated/restored units do not count - to prevent continuous summoning/animating </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
hmmhmm ... don't think its good - it will get to the ponit of killing first all of creatures then in the end hero ... where's freedom of choice ?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

In fact, in normal battles the units protect the commander. I hated battles where my spellcaster hero was killed in round 1 just because the opponent could cast/shoot first. Even with the most defensive formation in H4, you still weren't protected.


3. the hero development basically focusses on skills that provide the hero with abilities/spells, by default the hero increases his hit points and attack/defense skills by level and perhaps certain artifacts.

ok, but what with creatures ?? atack/defens would affect them, or just hero ?? as I guess, even balancing of hp would be hard enough.

Attack/Defense ("primary skills") affect the hero only when he fights, things like H4 Tactics of H3 Armorer are "secondary skills" - similar to H3.


5. 2Xth level hero in this system should be roughly as strong (in damage, health etc) as Xth level hero in H4
6. the hero can still travel all alone without an army, but due to his powers being limited, this hero wouldn't be that resistant and powerful and wouldn't be able to easily win battles alone, still, with abilities such as stealth and for various artifacts distribution cases, this can be useful, but definitely you cannot gain experience from stealth


imo - no use of stealth skill, things are guarded to make you fight for them, besides, as i look at HoMM V, it could be easly prevent just by blocking with creature only path.

Yes, in the map ed., you can block the path if you want. The purpose of stealth will be that the hero can scout/pick up free resources/mines on open areas and scout on enemy without being seen by him. It won't be an experience mine anymore.



Now magic heroes will most likely focuss on spells in this system, while might heroes will increase the stats of their creatures, earn money, scout etc. Perhaps at higher levels, the might heroes might (:P) get the chance to fight in the battle without the "last man standing" condition. So magic heroes can deal damage through spells and increase the stats of the creatures through spells, while might heroes can increase the stats of the creatures through skills (tactics etc.) and abilities (perhaps something like a "war song", "inspiring speech" etc) and do non-combat map things, such as producing money, increasing the creature growth.


in HoMM 3 you also can make might or magic hero, without placing him on the battlefield.


Yes. I tried to merge H3 with H4.

IMO - as i look at alpha screens, i guess the abbilitis will depend in some point from skills (eg. diplomacy - when you have ladership skill, holy charge - when you have some fighting skill(helmet))
my hope about holy charge is that they don't make somthing stupid with it (eg. like with blood from skeletons, eg. maybe charging trough fortifications http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/53.gif)[/QUOTE]