ELO problems......BIG problems [Archive]

XyZspineZyX

11-15-2003, 07:08 PM

Alright, just to let you guys know right off the bat, this is not a thread to make fun of how the Elo system scores, just how it works. I had my ELO up to 1451 about 2 weeks ago and I have 1700+ kills and 100 deaths. I never play by myself to rack up the kills, nor do I play with people that have very low ratings in order to make it easier for me to dominate the tangos.

I feel as though that should be getting me points, which it should have, but it wasn't, so I really started to pay attention and check the stats between all games, and I found out something pretty disturbing...........I would complete a mission on Elite, get like 30 ELO points, then I would change the map, and BAM, my points would disappear. Then, to top it all off, last night, I played 4 missions, completed them all, got no points at all, then when I quit and checked the stats page, I was at 1000 !!!!!!!!!!!!! I went from 83rd to 14000th for no reason. That is so lame.

Is this happening to anyone else ??

XyZspineZyX

11-15-2003, 07:08 PM

XyZspineZyX

11-15-2003, 11:17 PM

at damn last someone else has had this problem. I was ranked 1st in co-op mode with over 10,000 kills and 200 deaths (yes I know its co-op but still) then it reset. It has happened 3 times. I emailed UBI and they said the stats have nothing to do with them. Its down to the LIVE team. I am still awaiting their reply.

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XyZspineZyX

11-15-2003, 11:25 PM

I don't think you guys understand the ELO ranking system. It was originally designed for chess and it it based upon your opposition for the most part. If you played in a room with a bunch of people who suck your ELO will be the highest and continue to grow based on ather factors like Khttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ratio length of time you stay alive... Once you leave that room and join a game with a bunch of players who have proven themselves against other very good players your score is balanced. You enter the room with your score the same as the top player but one round into it and you are compared to the others and your score accurately reflects your skill. Chess is one of the most demanding games when it comes to ranking and this system is the one they chose. I just think it helps a bit to understand it better before you critique it.

Your ride to the morgue,
sufferpilot

XyZspineZyX

11-16-2003, 05:32 AM

Sufferpilot I don't think you understand what he is trying to say. I'm having the same problems!

I and two of my friends played Terrorrist Hunt, I started the game at 992 ELO, we finished the map and when i looked at the ELO it whent up to 1003 or something, but when my friend changed to another map, Wham! ELO back down to 992.

I'm talking about T-Hunt, every time we finish a map the ELO scores go up, but as soon as the map changes the ELO goes back to the original score.

I understand how the ELO system works, and it works fine for Survival-Sharp and Team Survival but coop T-hunts are all screwed up. I have about 600 kills and like 12 deaths and still have a 992 ELO score.

XyZspineZyX

11-16-2003, 06:20 AM

ya, plus, sometimes they mess up by subtracting points. i played adversarial, in a combined 2 rounds got 14 kills, and only died about 3 times, and my elo went down over 50 points.

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XyZspineZyX

11-16-2003, 06:49 PM

Think of it like this. If you are on a high school chess team and you play other members of your school team you each earn your own ranking. Let's say the top guy has 1400. This ELO is based on a handfull of factors (wins/loses, how long you survive on average, how quickly you defeat an opponent, and other points of skill), but most importantly the ELO of the opponents you face. Now its time for this top guy to go to state championships. Since his ranking is based on others in his school and not the entire state, each members ELO is recalculated against the entire state. Thats what happens when you change maps. Also make note that if any one leaves or if any one new joins, the ELO of each member of the match is effected.

Your ride to the morgue,
sufferpilot

XyZspineZyX

11-16-2003, 07:07 PM

Better yet check out this site.

http://home.clear.net.nz/pages/petanque/ratings/descript.htm

Your ride to the morgue,
sufferpilot

XyZspineZyX

11-17-2003, 01:08 AM

Pilot....please read this slowly so that you understand

WE KNOW HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS. WE GET THE POINTS, AND THEN THEY DISAPPEAR AFTER THE MAP IS CHANGED.

....thank you for your cooperation

XyZspineZyX

11-17-2003, 02:44 AM

Right. This just happened to me on Team Survival. I was doing pretty good and got my ELO up to 1450 and was ranked #1 in the room. Then there was a map change. The same people were in the room, and all of a sudden I'm at 1360. WTH (heck, f was rejected...)? Playing a few more games and doing OK, I'm finding it next to imposible to increase my score again...

XyZspineZyX

11-17-2003, 02:53 AM

The game probably looks at how you "usually" do on that map compared to everyone else. So when the map changes it recalculates everyone and places you accordingly. So say you suck really bad at the Garage. You just got done kicking butt on Airport 1 and are ranked #1. Then the map changes to the Garage level, (same players remain) but your score goes down.

I personally don't give a rat's @ss about the ELO. I worry more about my kill to death ratio and how many kills I have over my deaths. AND MOST IMPORTANLY is my team winning.

XyZspineZyX

11-17-2003, 07:39 AM

I hade 1500 ELO then after one round i got 989 ELO the i played some more and got 1150 then i killed 5 people and got 1100 it's stupid...

XyZspineZyX

11-17-2003, 06:14 PM

crispychris420,

Don't attempt to make me look stupid. You obviously do not understand how it works or you wouldn't be so mystified by the effects of a map change. I am not mystified. I understand quite clearly. Complain more about how it doesn't make any sense and tell us again how well you understand it.

You're funny

Your ride to the morgue,
sufferpilot

XyZspineZyX

11-17-2003, 06:19 PM

By the way your 17:1 kill to death ratio is a lie. If you are going to make stuff up, and least make it just an exaggeration not pure fantasy

Your ride to the morgue,
sufferpilot

XyZspineZyX

11-17-2003, 06:22 PM

CrispyChris is [edit]! He lied in another ELO thread...What he is trying to do is get attention and trying to brag about how good he is...

Trust me. He isn't...The ELO system has been around a very long time. This little kid now is b@tching because he doesnt like his score...ROFL....

CAN YOU SAY SKILLESS SPOILED BOY!

GO ELO...Best ranking system any video game has had...WOOT

<font color="#FF9900">EDIT by Pope: Chill on the language, please. The censor is there for a reason. First warning.</font>

Message Edited on 11/18/0303:00PM by Pope

XyZspineZyX

11-17-2003, 06:55 PM

Here is another example of why the ELO system is the best...The people who hate it are the ones who are afraid to play better players...

A Short Introduction

Simplified explanation to the elo rank system.

In basic the ranking works so that the further apart two players are the more points can be won. Beating players ranked high above you will gain you more points than beating someone below yourself.

The max you can win/loose in one game is 30 points
If two players are on equal points then you can win/loose 15 points.
If player A plays Player B and beats him to win 20 points, then player B will loose 20 points. This means, the points won are taken from your opponent.

For a more detailed explanation to the elo rank please refer to the section below.

The ELO rating system as developed by Prof. Arpad Elo is simple, tested (by the international Chess Federation the FIDE) . The structure of the ELO system is mathematically very simple; it uses a table and a formula:

ELO difference Expected score
0 0.50
40 0.53
80 0.58
120 0.62
160 0.66
200 0.69
240 0.73
280 0.76
320 0.79
360 0.82
400 0.84
600 0.93
800 0.97

Based on the difference in ELO rating between two players
Basically, the table shows the Normal Probability Function which is used to estimate the player's strength distribution.
The formula to calculate a player's new rating based on his/her previous one is:

Rn = Ro + C * (S - Se) (1)
where:
Rn = new rating
Ro = old rating
S = score
Se = expected score
C = constant

Examples:

Player A=1900
Player B=2000
Player C=2100

Example 1: C beats C
Ro = 2100
Se = 0.50
S = 1.00
Rn = 2100 + 30 * (.50) = 2100 + 15 = 2115

Example 2: C beats B
Ro = 2100
Se = 0.60
S = 1.00
Rn = 2100 + 30 * (.40) = 2100 + 12 = 2112

Example 3: A beats C
Ro = 1900
Se = 0.31
S = 1.00
Rn = 1900 + 30 * (.69) = 1900 + 21 = 1925

Notes
When a player goes up D the opponent goes up -D. So in example 3 the 3d player drops 25 ELO points.
The maximum drop/raise in rating per game is C.

XyZspineZyX

11-18-2003, 12:45 AM

Guys you need to lay off a little here. Me personally am not looking for a long winded explaination of what the ELO system is (there are countless threads on a number of forums which outline it) so back off. My problem is with the cummilative stats for CO_OP. My stats have reset now 4 times by simply joining a game as an observer. I was ranked 1st at one point. Overall I have over 12,000 co-op kills and 300 deaths. I have logged over 90 hours into the game. yet my ELO is now 980.It took a jump tonight from 1730 to 980 just by joining a game which had already started.If the stats had never reset then my ELO for co-op should be at least over 4000. This is really lame. Ubi has said that the stats are nothing to do with them and that its down to the Live team. I am awaiting their call. I have actually given up with the stats since the first time they reset where I lost 1500 elo by joining a game.Thank god counterstrike is out this week to take my mind off of it all.

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XyZspineZyX

11-18-2003, 12:48 AM

did you ever think that the scoreboard periodically reset?/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

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XyZspineZyX

11-18-2003, 01:44 AM

What the heck is an ELO? Do they use these terms in GRIT? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX

11-18-2003, 02:45 AM

hey sgt. anderson i couldnt agree with you more. kill death ratio is the most important to me it is the true measure of your skill.

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XyZspineZyX

11-18-2003, 02:46 AM

Actually nothing I have said is a lie. Snake, I have been waiting for you for too long to even give you a response. All you have to do is send me a friend request and I will prove it to you. Until then, save your insults for someone who cares. As for you pilot, you are an idiot. I don't know how much more clearly I can explain this to you so I will give you an example........

I was playing with two teammates, each with an ELO of 1100 or higher on Elite. My ELO was 1397. We beat the mission. I had the most kills. I checked my ELO, and it was 1423, then I changed the map, and all of our ELO's went back to their original places. To put it simple for u like I did earlier....................WE GOT THE POINTS, CHANGED THE MAP, THEN THE POINTS DISAPPEARED.

PS. Snake, there is no trusting you, because you are a [edit]. You challenged me in the other thread, then I b!tched you. And you have yet to send me your gamertag so I caould find you and annihilate you. You should keep your mouth shut, because you had your chance tyo back it up and did nothing. You want to see if I am lying, I show you so you can finally shut up.

<font color="#FF9900">EDIT by Pope: Watch the language and the insults, please. Lets keep it civil, eh? First warning.</font>

Message Edited on 11/18/0303:02PM by Pope

XyZspineZyX

11-18-2003, 03:13 AM

One more time for kid on the short bus. When you are on one map your score are compared only to the other players on that host with you. When you change maps you are compared to a different set of averages (averages for the new map) that encompass players outside of your host. You haven't said anything that tells me you have even a remote understanding of ELO.

Do you understand the staement I made before? Here it is again.

Complain more about how it doesn't make any sense and tell us again how well you understand it.

In case you still don't get it, I'm saying that in your original post you say you went from 83rd to 14000th for no reason. You admit you don't understand what happened, but now you insist you understand the ELO. So tell me then, why did you drop from 83rd to 1400th?

Your ride to the morgue,
sufferpilot

XyZspineZyX

11-18-2003, 07:21 AM

sufferpilot wrote:
- Think of it like this. If you are on a high school
- chess team and you play other members of your school
- team you each earn your own ranking. Let's say the
- top guy has 1400. This ELO is based on a handfull
- of factors (wins/loses, how long you survive on
- average, how quickly you defeat an opponent, and
- other points of skill), but most importantly the ELO
- of the opponents you face. Now its time for this
- top guy to go to state championships. Since his
- ranking is based on others in his school and not the
- entire state, each members ELO is recalculated
- against the entire state. Thats what happens when
- you change maps. Also make note that if any one
- leaves or if any one new joins, the ELO of each
- member of the match is effected.
-
-
-
-
- Your ride to the morgue,
- sufferpilot

This is about the best explination I've heard on the ELO system in awhile good job this really expalins it now everyone jsut needs to read it

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XyZspineZyX

11-18-2003, 08:41 AM

Thank you kmcentyr

Your ride to the morgue,
sufferpilot

XyZspineZyX

11-18-2003, 11:50 AM

You guys are just soooooooooo full of rubbish. So how do you explain the huge drop in ElO for not even taking part in a match (co-op)? Or The loss of Elo simply by changing a map after you have completed one and gained points, either on your own or with others. I have always played on Elite and found that if you lose then often you will lose little points. However if you play on recruit and lose then you will lose a fair number of points. From what I gather, the only way to raise your ELO in co-op is to play all by yourself which sux bigtime.

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XyZspineZyX

11-18-2003, 02:40 PM

[post removed]

Yeah, lets not post for the sole point of berating someone in the future. --Pope

Message Edited on 11/18/0303:04PM by Pope

XyZspineZyX

11-18-2003, 03:26 PM

Shadowmask2 wrote:
- You guys are just soooooooooo full of rubbish. So
- how do you explain the huge drop in ElO for not even
- taking part in a match (co-op)? Or The loss of Elo
- simply by changing a map after you have completed
- one and gained points, either on your own or with
- others. I have always played on Elite and found that
- if you lose then often you will lose little points.
- However if you play on recruit and lose then you
- will lose a fair number of points. From what I
- gather, the only way to raise your ELO in co-op is
- to play all by yourself which sux bigtime.
-
<img
- src="http://newgengames.tripod.com//sitebuildercon
- tent/sitebuilderpictures/mybanner2.jpg">
-

My God, it's like you people aren't even reading the posts on this thread! Here let me try it like this....

When Dunga change map, Dunga ELO change too. New map, new ELO. If Dunga finish map, change to new map, then change back to old map, Dunga ELO NOT GO DOWN! Dunga have different ELO score for different map! Dunga know! This too much for Dunga small head too. Dunga joke, this not too much for small Dunga head, you just [edit] stupid.

<font color="#FF9900">EDIT by Pope: Watch the language and the insults, please. Thanks. First warning.</font>

Message Edited on 11/18/0303:06PM by Pope

XyZspineZyX

11-18-2003, 05:19 PM

dunga is talking a load of rubbish. you know nothing dude so stop trying to act like the authority here. Because if dunga change map and elo change in one case then it doesn't the next means that dungas theory is off.

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XyZspineZyX

11-18-2003, 07:27 PM

grrr... dunga smash!

but seriously dude, let's say:

you play map 1
when you start map 1 your elo is A
when you are done with map 1 you have scored x points
thus your score is A+x.

then you switch to map 2
your elo is back to A, right?

so, then, w/o playing map 2 you switch to map 3
your elo is still A right?

Now, unless there is something actually wrong with the R63 elo system,

if you switch back to map 1 your elo should be A+x.

Now, if I'm completely wrong about this and really don't have any idea what I'm talking about then the elo system is [edit] and I'm glad I don't ever think about it or attempt to attach some sort of self worth to a computer assigned number based on a GAME.
Instead, I just play...

<font color="#FF9900">EDIT by Pope: Language...</font>

Message Edited on 11/18/0303:08PM by Pope

XyZspineZyX

11-18-2003, 10:41 PM

Wow, I am almost speechless as a result of you guys' ultimate lack of common sense, but.......not quite......

Snake...........you are a liar, because I have not been on live since early Friday, so why don't you think things through next time before you [edit] off again ?

Pilot...........you obviously cannot read, considering that I have clearly explained why my ELO dropped and the problem that not only I am having.

The fact is that there is no reason for the points to disappear when changing the map, but it's nice that you guys have so cleverly made yourselves "look" smarter by trying to tell me that I just don't understand. Applause is in order, cause you guys really are the best. (sarcasm)

crispychris420.I'll be on tonight at 9:30 et. Back it up, or shut up. BOTH OF YOU !

<font color="#FF9900">EDIT by Pope: Language...</font>

Message Edited on 11/18/0303:09PM by Pope

XyZspineZyX

11-18-2003, 11:11 PM

Chill guys, all of you. I'm leaving this discussion open on the ELO issue, but drop the flaming and the swearing. Thanks.

UbiSoft/RSE Forum Moderator
ICQ [15950501]
pope@theheap.net

XyZspineZyX

11-19-2003, 06:08 AM

If you understand why did you ask the question in the first place?

Your ride to the morgue,
sufferpilot

XyZspineZyX

11-19-2003, 10:34 AM

There is a huge bug in the elo ranking system for co-op play. The bug means that by simply joining a game that has already started you will gain or lose elo sometimes losing all of your elo so that it matches the players in the game.

Yesterday I had 1700 elo for cumulative co-op I joined one of my friends games which had already started, so I was an observer. My friends stats and those in the room as well was around 980. Whilst waiting to join the action on their next go I checked my stats. Sadly they had changed to 980.This has happened 4 times now.

Say you and 3 others complete a terrorist hunt together on elite and you all survive with at least 3 bars of health each, you will all gain at least 30 elo points. If the host changes the map then there is a chance that the 30 points will be stripped for no reason.

Say you are a loser and you play co-op modes all by yourself on any difficulty and complete maps without loss of health or at least 3 bars at the end, you will gain maximum points (30 odd). Say you replay the same map again and finish with the same health as before its 50/50 as to if you will get 30 points or not.

Say you are sad and you decide to play a mission on elite completing it with at least 3 bars of health left you will gain 30 pts. Then you quit the server and start again doing the same map as before (or any other map) and completing it with at least 3 bars of health. You will get 30 pts each time.

my conclusion is the elo system for co-op is flawed. I know some people may come here and say that I am wrong and that the elo changes for each map. I say rubbish. I also say that the fact that the Live team havent given me an answer regarding this means something is fishy. I also feel that something is fishy that the official site has not compiled its top ten players yet either.

Bottom line is dont take stats seriously until they are fixed..---

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XyZspineZyX

11-19-2003, 10:35 AM

my stats

overall: kills 12672
deaths 302
Ratio 41.96
attempts 370 ( this includes joined games that you dont play or quit from because they have started already)
success 253
ratio 68.38
total time 94h 51 mins

for missions I have 167 attempts and 152 success
for Terrorist hunt I have 149 attempts and 101 success.

my elo is 981 and I am ranked 34,157.

I play on elite only so do the maths with that amount of successes my elo should be over 3000 possibly even 4000.Its not though is it.Why? Because the stats have reset on me 4 times now.

I am going to run off now and cry like an overgrown baby.

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XyZspineZyX

11-20-2003, 02:50 PM

It was cool to learn about the whole ELO thing being Chess related and all (not being sarcastic) but what gets me about the whole scoring thing (other than my ELO not being where I'd like it to be) is that some people have a 288% completion rate. How is that even possible? If you finish every sortie than you'd have 100% not 288%. I've also noticed that the columns across tend to not add up nicely. Someone will have, for example, 50 terrorist hunts and 10 missions but will have an overall attempt count of 120. Huh? I'm not a math wiz but I can add 50 + 10 and come out with something waaaay different than 120. This adding problem exists across kill counts and death counts as well. And I'm talking overall statistics not on a map by map rating (even though it applies here as well).

If there weren't other indicators that the scoring system is flawed I would be content with the ELO rating but as it stands I'm a little suspect unless someone can explain the descrepencies.

Any ideas?

XyZspineZyX

11-20-2003, 10:22 PM

hey brimstone are you the same guy i play with on LIVE!?

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<font size="1" face="impact" color="#009900">TRAmbrose<font size="2"></p></div><div align="center">

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XyZspineZyX

11-20-2003, 10:53 PM

ELO Ratings are Map Specific. That is why some of you are confused. Play Advesarial and you will se this !!!

XyZspineZyX

11-21-2003, 03:42 PM

Looks like someone had a question or concern....someone answered...and someone threw a temper tantrum....keep in mind...this is just a game...(quickly looks behind to make sure no one with the mp5 is behind me)....designed to have fun. I believe also the statistics are map specific. Good job in answering my question I had sufferpilot and the others that took the time to explain when I first came here to find out what elo was all about.

As for the rest of you guys who want to continue to complain because you don't want to understand....why don't you take a break from statistics...play the game...have some fun....and when its all over with...and your patting yourself on the back for a awesome kill....or wondering what you could have done better when another player ventilated your skull go back and have some more FUN.

It works for me. I do it all the time...wondering I mean lol. Gamer tag is Tieg....look me up if you want to have me wonder some more.

Did I ventilate your helmet? So sorry.

XyZspineZyX

11-21-2003, 05:56 PM

Um, I actually wasn't joining the complaint department. Seems like someone only read half of the questions before forming their opinion but I posted late in the game so this can be expected.

Anyways, in my original post I thought the elo information was outstanding (good job sufferpilot) but have a related separate question. How is it possible for individuals to have 288% completion rates. If you complete every sortie then you should have a 100% completion rate. This is coop stats of course and seems to apply across total and map based stats. So if this is screwed up, couldn't the elo thing be flawed as well?

Just a thought, any ideas or comments (constructive comments) would be appreciated.