PDA

View Full Version : The Gamers Bill of Rights :-)



Mysticaly
08-30-2008, 09:20 AM
Stardock and Gas Powered Games have decided to put together a bill of rights for gamers in a hope that publishers will try there best to follow trough on these rights..
I'm sure we all know that Ubisoft will ignore these totally, but its a nice read anyway http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Links:
Original Stardock Document (http://www.stardock.com/about/newsitem.asp?id=1095)

On Edge Online (http://www.edge-online.com/blogs/the-gamers-bill-rights)

On GamaSutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20027)

Mysticaly
08-30-2008, 09:23 AM
Apparently this was already posted (to some extent) in this thread: http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/6381021386/m/9421057756/p/64

krise_madsen
08-30-2008, 09:59 AM
Oh, I don't mind this getting a thread on it's own http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


The Gamer's Bill of Rights

1) Gamers shall have the right to return games that don't work with their computers for a full refund.
2) Gamers shall have the right to demand that games be released in a finished state.
3) Gamers shall have the right to expect meaningful updates after a game's release.
4) Gamers shall have the right to demand that download managers and updaters not force themselves to run or be forced to load in order to play a game.
5) Gamers shall have the right to expect that the minimum requirements for a game will mean that the game will play adequately on that computer.
6) Gamers shall have the right to expect that games won't install hidden drivers or other potentially harmful software without their consent.
7) Gamers shall have the right to re-download the latest versions of the games they own at any time.
8) Gamers shall have the right to not be treated as potential criminals by developers or publishers.
9) Gamers shall have the right to demand that a single-player game not force them to be connected to the Internet every time they wish to play.
10) Gamers shall have the right that games which are installed to the hard drive shall not require a CD/DVD to remain in the drive to play.


Read it. Copy-paste it. Pass it on.

Respectfully

krise madsen

Rogue__Spear
08-30-2008, 11:52 AM
I honestly don't think publishers would go for this since the majority think 90% of gamers are just mindless cash cows.

Want2Snipe
08-30-2008, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Rogue__Spear:
I honestly don't think publishers would go for this since the majority think 90% of gamers are just mindless cash cows.

They have a right to... 90% of them ARE!!! hence, why we are in the mess that we are right now.

Rogue__Spear
08-30-2008, 01:20 PM
I think the mess is more to appeal to the "casual" gamer demographic then it is companies thinking we're idiots.

Kit75
08-30-2008, 01:27 PM
Originally posted by Want2Snipe:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Rogue__Spear:
I honestly don't think publishers would go for this since the majority think 90% of gamers are just mindless cash cows.

They have a right to... 90% of them ARE!!! hence, why we are in the mess that we are right now. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

The piracy thing is clearly overblown out of proportions but if you can read this, with a grain of salt because Michael Fitch is obviously frustrated, it gives a good overview of other lesser known problems:

http://www.quartertothree.com/game-talk/showthread.php?t=42663

And here's a similar rant from Infinity Ward:

http://fourzerotwo.blogspot.com/2008/01/week-in-review-...servers-servers.html (http://fourzerotwo.blogspot.com/2008/01/week-in-review-servers-servers-servers.html)

The Bill of Rights from StarDock is great, but the motives behind aren't clear. Evidently, StarDock has a very different model than most publishers and oddly enough, they're forcing updates through their Impulse service which contradicts their own Bill...

BilBoTeaBaggins
08-30-2008, 08:57 PM
The piracy thing is clearly overblown out of proportions but if you can read this, with a grain of salt because Michael Fitch is obviously frustrated, it gives a good overview of other lesser known problems:

Actually, the piracy thing is just a farce. I cant list any site (goes against forum rules) but im sure that many of you know the top rated ones. I went to the top 2 rated torrent sites and checked xbox pitrated games verses pc pirated games uploaded from the most popular and well known pirates. The number one site shows how many times the torrent has been downloaded and in nearly every single case the xbox pirated copy was far exceeding that of the pc.

Kit75
08-31-2008, 08:20 AM
Originally posted by BilBoTeaBaggins:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The piracy thing is clearly overblown out of proportions but if you can read this, with a grain of salt because Michael Fitch is obviously frustrated, it gives a good overview of other lesser known problems:

Actually, the piracy thing is just a farce. I cant list any site (goes against forum rules) but im sure that many of you know the top rated ones. I went to the top 2 rated torrent sites and checked xbox pitrated games verses pc pirated games uploaded from the most popular and well known pirates. The number one site shows how many times the torrent has been downloaded and in nearly every single case the xbox pirated copy was far exceeding that of the pc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's not what the mainstream torrent sites show, though. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And if that were that simple, then it would mean that console games sold MORE and are pirated MORE, which would mean that the PC market is dwindling, which we also know isn't exactly true either.

It's quite complicated but piracy is but one factor in the equation...

Want2Snipe
08-31-2008, 09:46 AM
I understand that Piracy has a lot to do with it but, on the other hand, why is it LEGAL for UBI and some others to sell you unfinished games at full retail prices? Can you not see the Irony in this? I sure can.

Sure, the little people are the ones that suffer the most but I have seen games beinf hyped to the max, video trailers looking really really cool until to become angry at the final product... a few games come to mind here.

On one of those links, the author claims people complaining about their game crashing at some security checks and I can understand their frustation, at the same token, the majority of the pirated games work much better than the retail copies because of all the security added measures so the paying customers have it even worse than those who pirated the games... nice huh!

Mysticaly
08-31-2008, 10:38 AM
Personally (a bit off topic) I buy all the games I play, I may however download a pirated version first to see if the game is something for me, but if I intend to play it I will buy it, always without any exception (unless it's a really old game that can not be found for sale anywhere)

I will however always download pirate cracks (no-cd/no-dvd) because running the game with the cd/dvd in drive is not an option for me (yet I play a bit on my sons x-box360 ? hmm?)

The point is, I do actually believe there are allot of people out there like me, if they like the game they will buy it, regardless if they already have a fully functional cracked version on there drives or not. The "pirates ruins the pc market" argument is simply an excuse, the real problem is that no one wants to develop for a platform as difficult as the PC platform, and that the PC platform are getting smaller and smaller by the minute. This is the real reason, it's not economical enough to develop games and testing the games for the PC market.,.,., Imagine the thousands of different setups to make sure passes trough the quality assurance tests. It's simply to small of a market and to expensive market to really bother about in their view, or at least that is how they justify them selves..

The easy solution is to blame it all on piracy, however as small as it actually might be a real problem, and I promise you that the piracy in numbers is about as big for consoles,.,., it's only the console market is huge compared to the PC market, hence publishers can defend it (doing work on console titles & fixing them), and the most important thing.,.,.,they are only developing for two (or 3) different setups (ps3, x360 and WII)

If you can blame everything on piracy and get away with it then of-course you will do it. Why is vegas 2 in such a urinal poor state ? because of piracy,, because giving any true effort on fixing the game can not be justified in Ubisoft, hence they will leave it pretty much alone.. Well that's an example of how they make excuses, I don't know if this is the real case for Ubi or not, but I have a feeling it is.

This bill of rights thingy might not change one bit for us the customers, we might not see any changes at all, and it might even be nothing less of a marketing trick from Stardok and Gas Powered Games, however it really is a challenge to other publishers/developers, at least in my view.
It might even push some developers/publishers to say publicly that they will try to live up to this bill.

Also what makes this real interesting is that this bill is brought forward for us PC gamers, it's not for all platforms, but especially the PC platform, imagine what it would mean if let's say two more publishers would acknowledge this "Bill" ? The more that would actually acknowledge it the more would follow.

I have a hard time seeing Activision acknowledging something like this, but imagine if they did, do you believe i.e. EA would not follow ?

Ubisoft would not, but hey lets be honest about Ubisoft, they are to arrogant to ever do as "the rest"

Finally, back to piracy again, it's said that video games sales will surpass the sale of music in 2008, it has already surpassed Video rent, cinema and dvd's, basically taken over for Hollywood, almost every publisher prices 2008 and are boosting 2008 up to the clouds...

Now how in *the-dark-place-where-you'll-burn-forever* can piracy be a problem then????
It doesn't make any sense at all! There is simply NO WAY.
The problem is simply the following: Ubisoft, ID Atari, Codemaster etc. etc. can NEVER get enough money, they should really really be ashamed of them selves.,.,if I where religious I would believe they would burn forever in that place I where talking about, as they would be sinning with one of the 7 deadly sins, GREED.,.,. It makes me wanna puke

Chuck_Withers
08-31-2008, 11:11 AM
I'll be posting this up on the console boards! Also with your post Myst

Kit75
08-31-2008, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Want2Snipe:
I understand that Piracy has a lot to do with it but, on the other hand, why is it LEGAL for UBI and some others to sell you unfinished games at full retail prices? Can you not see the Irony in this? I sure can.

Sure, the little people are the ones that suffer the most but I have seen games beinf hyped to the max, video trailers looking really really cool until to become angry at the final product... a few games come to mind here.

On one of those links, the author claims people complaining about their game crashing at some security checks and I can understand their frustation, at the same token, the majority of the pirated games work much better than the retail copies because of all the security added measures so the paying customers have it even worse than those who pirated the games... nice huh!

An unfinished product is very subjective. Some may consider a game unfinished because there is no SADS or editor, but that's unfair. A game is a game and what definies it complete is how it is made.

My take on it:

- What's included (and supported) with the games should be clearly identified, or should be easy to consult. Does the game have a SDK? An editor? A server? And so forth. That way, there'd be no misunderstanding.

- PC games should come with a manufacturer's warranty like any other product.

- An independent certification process, much like console games have to go through would be interesting for PC games? An idea I'm tossing in the mix. Then customers who are wary could only buy games that are certified as such.

- The hardware manufacturers should streamline their stuff, and computer manufacturers should stop trying to find the cheapest components. Guilty as charged, I bought one of those cheap, mass-produced computer and it comes with an on-board video card that steals 128MB of my precious RAM memory, even though I don't use it!

As for the "pirated product is better", that's like saying you pirate a movie at home instead of going at the movie theater because you then have the ability to pause or fast-forward. Or because you pirate a DVD movie because you don't want to see the FBI warning that you can't skip.

There are a bunch of very boring analogies that I could spew but the truth of the matter is that piracy has always existed, and probably always will. All those "non-material" products need to evolve.

Megalodon26
08-31-2008, 02:10 PM
I think that piracy is only a major factor in those markets that cannot get retail games, like in China, North Korea and some places in the Middle east, where politics or religion keep these games off the shelves, and players from those areas will boost the pirated copies far more per capita than North America or Europe. So those don't count as lost revenue, since otherwise the game couldn't be purchased anyways.

And, IMO any game that has to have a patch on the same day as being released, or within a week or so, is an unfinished game. A truly finished game is one that worked well on all the systems that the game was tested upon, obviously performing better on high end machines, but still playable on the lowest possible PC configuration. Then any patches that have to be released are based on consumer feedback, since you cannot watch for everything, and the end user will always catch what the devs missed after several hours of playing, and work with the community to correct the flaws.

UBI's mentality reminds me of a medical Assistant I once met after breaking a finger playing Basketball in Norfolk, VA. I told him my finger was shorter than before and he said it wasn't, and after I insisted it was he started asking where I got my medical degree from, as that was the only way I could possibly know more about my own body than him. Well, he ate crow the next week after X-rays showed the finger was 6mm shorter, as the rest of the bone had shattered and was floating around in the finger. Except with UBI, they are telling us that all the problems we have noticed are due to our PC's hardware or the drivers we use, and unless we are trained PC techs or VG developers, we cannot possibly know that the game is broken. Arrogance to the extreme.

Kit75
08-31-2008, 02:54 PM
And, IMO any game that has to have a patch on the same day as being released, or within a week or so, is an unfinished game.
There can be many weeks that goes by between the time the game is sent to the replication plant and when it actually gets on the shelves. I've even read that some developers without sufficient clout can wait for a month before they get their turn. This is time they use, and possibly sometimes abuse. (There was an article on Kotaku or Gamasutra about that)

I don't mind day one patches personally, but the game must be playable on the majority of systems on day 1 with, or without patches.


Except with UBI, they are telling us that all the problems we have noticed are due to our PC's hardware or the drivers we use, and unless we are trained PC techs or VG developers, we cannot possibly know that the game is broken. Arrogance to the extreme.
Is it really arrogance or perhaps because techical support people aren't sufficiently trained? I had similar issues with EA (a while back) and I pretty much had to fend for myself.

If Steve Jobs can bring ( <STRIKE>real</STRIKE> more) gaming to Mac, that excuse won't exist anymore since everything is streamlined, but that is comparing oranges with apples. (pun intended)

Megalodon26
09-01-2008, 08:15 AM
Since UBI is a publishing company, and most likely do the DVD production themselves, or are such a large company that I highly doubt they have to wait in line to have their games reproduced and shipped. There goes that excuse.

And poorly trained service personnel has never been in doubt, since they apparently just direct the caller to the UBI support forums or tell them to ensure they meet the min or recommended specs, and update all drivers. I haven't heard from anyone saying that UBI has even tried to help past these canned suggestion, and nor do they intend to. And to me that is arrogant, since they never admit the possibility that problems being experienced could be because of the game, in spite of all the evidence to the fact.

Kit75
09-01-2008, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by bigrexxx:
Since UBI is a publishing company, and most likely do the DVD production themselves, or are such a large company that I highly doubt they have to wait in line to have their games reproduced and shipped. There goes that excuse.

Even the largest publishers in the top five don't own their own replication plants for PC software and often have to wait in line like all the others, or probably have to pay a premium. Microsoft, Sony and Nintendo have their own facilities though.

The future probably won't be disc-based. Steam and Impulse are probably the best delivery systems for PC games. There is no packaging costs associated with it, no distributor and retailer costs.

And developers can even reduce or avoid publishing costs because they can sell directly to their customers.

WhiteKnight77
09-01-2008, 01:38 PM
Ubi does use outside sources to press game disks. With the recent lawsuit by Ubi over Assassin's Creed Leak (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6195570.html?part=rss&tag=gs_news&subj=6195570&tag=nl.e513), it can be said that Ubi doesn't have the capacity to press their own disks.

Still, Ubi has always relied upon the community to "fix" problems with games that they have published. This dates back years even. While nice enough to give modders the source code to Destroyer Command and Silent Hunter II, looking back, it was a way to get the games fixed without having to pay employees to do so. This has even happened with Vegas (SADS) and even again with the no-cd hack from the pirates that Ubi support posted as a fix for the D2D version of V2 after the fan update in June.

All gamers want is a game that is finished with as few bugs as possible and I am talking about game stopping bugs. Minor ones can that do not hurt gameplay can be worked out somehow later on. No one would buy a car without wheels with the promise that they would be delivered 3 months down the road or a refrigerater with no refrigerent, yet for some reason, people accept unfinished or buggy games for some stupid reason and it should stop. Consumers should demand (and that is what many here on the Ubi forums are doing lately) that games be supported and finished before retail release.

zack991
09-01-2008, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by WhiteKnight77:
Ubi does use outside sources to press game disks. With the recent lawsuit by Ubi over Assassin's Creed Leak (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6195570.html?part=rss&tag=gs_news&subj=6195570&tag=nl.e513), it can be said that Ubi doesn't have the capacity to press their own disks.

Still, Ubi has always relied upon the community to "fix" problems with games that they have published. This dates back years even. While nice enough to give modders the source code to Destroyer Command and Silent Hunter II, looking back, it was a way to get the games fixed without having to pay employees to do so. This has even happened with Vegas (SADS) and even again with the no-cd hack from the pirates that Ubi support posted as a fix for the D2D version of V2 after the fan update in June.

All gamers want is a game that is finished with as few bugs as possible and I am talking about game stopping bugs. Minor ones can that do not hurt gameplay can be worked out somehow later on. No one would buy a car without wheels with the promise that they would be delivered 3 months down the road or a refrigerater with no refrigerent, yet for some reason, people accept unfinished or buggy games for some stupid reason and it should stop. Consumers should demand (and that is what many here on the Ubi forums are doing lately) that games be supported and finished before retail release.

If they had the ability to then that would just be another thing they would screw up. At least they left that to the actual professionals.

polemic
09-03-2008, 09:59 AM
Originally posted by Kit75:
The future probably won't be disc-based. Steam and Impulse are probably the best delivery systems for PC games. There is no packaging costs associated with it, no distributor and retailer costs.

Oh yuck...I made that mistake once with Steam....having purchased Audiosurf via Steam (a supreme little game for a measly $10), the game gets installed along with the Steam client. You can even make a backup of your game and save it to disk....BUT, if you wish to restore/reinstall your game, it cannot be done without installing the Steam client along with it !

My girlfriend Anne Bonny has a version which runs without Steam, so life is good.

Want2Snipe
09-03-2008, 01:31 PM
Is your Girlfriend Anne Bonny cute? Opps, sorry, got carried away and thought I was in a different forum... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Why do we need to know your GF's Name though? Curious.

xoops
09-03-2008, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Want2Snipe:
Is your Girlfriend Anne Bonny cute? Opps, sorry, got carried away and thought I was in a different forum... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/blink.gif http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Hopefully, Anne Bonny is a co-worker of Briony (polemic). And most importantly, she knows how to spin around poles...

I'd very much like to see photos or clips of Briony's typical day at work... http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/winky.gif

Chuck_Withers
09-03-2008, 03:27 PM
<span class="ev_code_RED">*EDIT - Inappropriate content removed*</span>

polemic
09-03-2008, 05:34 PM
Originally posted by Want2Snipe:
Why do we need to know your GF's Name though? Curious.

Because of what she was...Snipey, you need to read between the lines.

On topic, most of those rights sucked by the way and are simply too subjective to be implemented.

zack991
09-03-2008, 07:06 PM
Yes they will never be implemented in most company's but in some company's a are taking similar stances on how they work with fans and produces their products.