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Elixsus
06-23-2006, 06:36 AM
This game looks really really good just to say.

Ok one of the things i really dislike about all games around is the ability to get to somewhere. I mean like if i want to climb up a little hill it wont let me because i cant 'walk' up it. Only thing is that in Real Life if i wanted to get there i would find a way to climb it, i am serious. What if you need to get into a house and you havn't got the time to find a door? you go through a window (only supposing what they do in rl army).

I mean it really is dissapointing how game companies always say real life this and the other yet think about it its very limited. You cant even climb over a fence?

Just a side comment - when you kill a player is it going to be a single spawn or a multi spawn? surely for realism you need to only die once and thats the end? might be annoying but hey its real http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Servers could choose hoe much respawn they want i s'ppose.

About after killing a player what would you do? If you were running low on bullets you would check the body to see if it had any weapons or ammo.

Is there going to be 'Dedicated Ranks' like a 'support', 'medic', 'anti tank' and so on, BF2 shows team work in full flow.

Also if some players like me would like alot of Realism it would be nice to see that you actually die if you get hit by a granade, not just that your health goes from 100% to 40% and then you find a health pack somewhere? its just not real enough.

Well guys this is what i have had to say i hope you can talk about my opinions and add.

To the devs on HAZE This game is going to be on my list for sure

Thanks Elixsus

deded999
06-23-2006, 09:31 AM
I'd agree with what you say about interacting with environments Elixsus - most places you should be able to get to, (although if you're lugging a machine gun, bazooka and plenty of ammo and grenades then 'realistically' there's no way you're getting up that muddy slope - you could barely run thirty yards with all that weight!).

This does seem to be mostly about control options (and level design limitations - devs could certainly try to be a little more imaginative in this area. The choppers in Far Cry were a damn good idea) which have been discussed quite a bit in the 'Please Don't Have Jumping' (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/7551024144/m/3381023744) thread.

Your general point about realism in action games is interesting and true up to a point, but I think you need to remember that games need to be fun above all else, otherwise people simply won't play them. Instant/single deaths sound great in principle, but joining a MP deathmatch and getting shot in the first few seconds without firing a shot is definetly not going to catch on. Some games have tried the 'single death' approach (I seem to remember a Bushido/Samurai game on PS1 that did this in combat), and it's something worth looking at, but generally I think we can sacrifice some level of realism in order to keep some sense of fun and fairness in the game.

And if you really want realism, then don't expect one guy to be able to take out ten guys in fair and even combat, because it is extremely unlikely to happen. Not impossible, but unlikely. If you want to play games where this happens (ie. every FPS going) then realism is already out of the window. It's the illusion of reality that is important in these circumstances, and that's where story, character and scenario come in, and where devs can innovate to help create that illusion.

Elixsus
06-23-2006, 10:33 AM
Yes i will agree that the whole point of a FPS is to litrally blow/shot/hack down enemies and have fun. Maybe the realism i took alittle too far but hey. I mean yeah i understand totally about players not wanting to die in the first few minutes.... but if there where 'some' servers who dedicated to 'Over Realism' then maybe this might suit 'a minority' of players.

I mean i myself love to build up skill and be good at a FPS its great coming home from school on a friday night and going over to a mates and doing some co-op (Splinter Cell CT was good) or just plain killing each other deathmatches/flag capture. But if it is like some game where you just go in and have these over powered weapons and just kill over 40 people in under 4 seconds that is not skill but plain button smashing.

Yes i totally agree about the going up a muddy slope with too much gear - Bf2 has that feature where when your a anti-tank guy (carries an anti-tank rocket launcher) you run for less time than when your a lightwieght marksmen(sniper). I think this really does work to create a sence of 'what players do i choose?'. If i choose a Sniper i can shoot from long range, run faster and go over obstacles easier....but i dont do all close combat and i dont destroy vehcles or heal people (if medics are involved)etc...

Now what do you think should happen when a Team member gets shot down? In MP what do you think should happen and what should happen in Solo?

Well if its a small wound i think you should be able to drag your member out from the fight (whilest another player covers you with franctic fire) and then you can get him healed. However if it is a critical/mortal blow then a respawn?

Anoter question on opinion when you kill another player do you think you should be able to totally strip the weapons/ammo/camoflage that they are wearing or stick do just what you get to start of with?

Thanks deded999 you seem like a very knowledgable person i hope you reply to my points .... again http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

deded999
06-23-2006, 10:59 AM
Originally posted by Elixsus:
Now what do you think should happen when a Team member gets shot down? In MP what do you think should happen and what should happen in Solo?

Well if its a small wound i think you should be able to drag your member out from the fight (whilest another player covers you with franctic fire) and then you can get him healed. However if it is a critical/mortal blow then a respawn?

Well I presume you're referring to Haze (or a similar game) here. I've got to admit I've not got an awful lot of experience with squad-based games, but I think an approach as seen in Full Spectrum Warrior is useful:

When a squad-member is hit, the other players have a short amount of time (30-60 secs say) to drag him to cover and start to heal him up (anyone can heal), or they are dead and you fail the mission. After this the squad-member can carry on as normal. However, if a second squad-member is hit during this time, it's game over. In this way, wounded squaddies are a major problem in combat, minimising your offensive capabilities and demanding you leap to their assistance pronto. But you've also got to do this while not risking your remaining squaddies as by then it is literally a One-Shot-Kill situation.

This means a squaddie getting wounded is a BIG deal when it happens, but is a fully recoverable situation game-wise. I think this is the best solution I've seen so far to the reality vs gameplay dichotomy.

Admittedly, FSW isn't a FPS, but the difference is minimal in the context of squad hits and healing. This also doesn't explain what happens if YOU are hit, (in FSW you aren't actually a character, more a controlling 'cursor') - although the simplest solution would be exactly the same, but you would have to rely on the friendly AI to save your butt!

Now this system may be a little difficult in an FPS setting or it may be quite well suited, without seeing it in action it's hard to tell, but I think it could work quite well and certainly add to the sense of realism.

In MP however it would have to be altered (or maybe not!) to allow respawns. Maybe you would get the chance to heal the player, but if they die they respawn a way away from the action, (or the minor/critical hit system you mentioned - seems a good idea). This would mean no health-packs were necessary and squaddies would have to work well in a team in order to survive when hit.


Anoter question on opinion when you kill another player do you think you should be able to totally strip the weapons/ammo/camoflage that they are wearing or stick do just what you get to start of with?

Personally I think it's VERY unrealistic to have enemies firing AK's at you while you stick them with a knife and then you can't pick up their AK - dumb as ****.

Certainly you shouldn't be able to amass huge amounts of weapons or ammo, maybe the AK should have only a few shots left, or the guy has kept it in poor condition and it's more likely to jam or misfire, in which case you may wish to avoid it, but I really liked the system in Operation Flashpoint where virtually any enemy weapon could be captured and used immediately. (Nicking extra stuff would be nice, but maybe that would make it more of an RPG/character-type game. Deus Ex let you do this kind of thing).

Most games seem to offer this kind of thing to some point now though, so I would imagine we'll see similar in Haze. In general I would say that anything you would normally be able to do, and that would make sense within the game-structure, should be possible and allowed, hardware limitations allowing of course.

Elixsus
06-23-2006, 11:09 AM
Another lot of awesome points.

I agree the ability to not equip the enemies weapons is by far very silly. And as for a limit to how much you can carry is good but would it be defined by how many Iteams or how much in wieght?

I was also thinking do you think Haze should have in both single and Mp a system which allows a difference in skill (i think ps3 online and xbox live will have/have got a skill filter already) lets say your a private and you can only handle (sorry i dont know my weapons so bare with me) a Light and not so powerful machine gun which didnt require much skill. After some victories and medals and so on your weapon skill increases allowing you to 'unlock'/'learn' how to use new weapon. So as a sniper you would get a more accurate sniper? ah but just in case it starts to get alittle out of control with weapon specs, you could decrease the power of the sniper or the wieght?

going back to my original point about enviroment things. Do you think the ability to lay trip wire and trip activated bombs could be done by lets say getting 2 trees and manually attaching the trip wire from one to another? Could it be coded?

More opinions are so welcome..

Thanks

frd_neko
06-23-2006, 12:42 PM
Many excellent ideas here folks, and a lot of very perceptive insights too.

It's all about game direction in the end. You're never going to satisfy the whole range of FPS fans, from the ultra-realistic fans to the trigger-happy arcade players, and I've never seen a game manage to satisfy both. One thing about HAZE though, is I think it'll satisfy a broader range than most FPS's because of some of the interesting things we're doing in it. Can't say much more for now though, etc, etc.

As for realism in level design, well, good level design is all about smoke and mirrors anyway; obviously you're never going to have a game where you can go everywhere (unless you want to spend several hundred years making it...), but the trick with good level design is making the player think that they can. And even if they can't, making them not care about it.

Neko.

Elixsus
06-23-2006, 12:54 PM
Yeah i totally agree neko. I wouldnt want to see a huge map because i would only expect that from a RPG game like WoW.

But what i think alot of people wouldnt mind is a medium-big level and that there is alot of choices of where to go how to get there and why you want to get there. I mean i would love to have tons of things to do on a medium map than nothing to do on a humungus map if you see what i mean. Sure some people will say "i want a huge map to just roam around" but as you say do have a huge map you either do 2 things; have a huge map but the interation is lowered, or you spend a 100 years making it fully interactable.

neko what did you think about my weapons idea? i know your not allowed to say much but is there any chance you could tell us if there 'might' or 'possibly not' be such a structure?

Thanks hope to hear soon

deded999
06-23-2006, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by frd_neko:
As for realism in level design, well, good level design is all about smoke and mirrors anyway; obviously you're never going to have a game where you can go everywhere (unless you want to spend several hundred years making it...), but the trick with good level design is making the player think that they can. And even if they can't, making them not care about it.

True. I think a good idea for level designs that trick you into thinking you can 'go anywhere' could be that on first look there's nowhere else to go in an area, but closer inspection will reveal some areas that can be accessed further, say a hidden cave or stream-bed you can follow that reveals new (small) areas. This wouldn't be prohibitive design-wise, but helps with the illusion of an 'expansive' environment. Many games already have this kind of thing anyway, but it's worth doing.

Relatively empty areas that can be entered but leave you exposed to attack are a good idea for level boundaries too, (the sea in FC is a good example, but swamps, paddy fields and reed beds could be others) - they let you enter them so the level is wider than it at first seems, but you really wouldn't want to go much deeper or stay in them for long.

As you say Neko, much of it is smoke and mirrors, but if it's cleverly done, I think players who see the mirror can still respect the quality of the trick. I always rated Doom as having some of the best level design simply because there were always new areas opening up and you never felt sure that wall you were pressed up against wasn't a hidden door or trap. Not something usable in jungles, but still.


Originally posted by Elixsus:
going back to my original point about enviroment things. Do you think the ability to lay trip wire and trip activated bombs could be done by lets say getting 2 trees and manually attaching the trip wire from one to another? Could it be coded?

This I like - I've already posted about the LAM's (devestating laser-tripped or thrown grenades) from Deus Ex, and this kind of trap (or more low-tech versions from the PH http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) in jungle (or other) environments would be great. This kind of attack relies on having to defend an area however, so it will depend on the gameplay/game-type to be effective, but I suspect we'll see something like this in Haze.

Elixsus
06-23-2006, 02:53 PM
Good because there would be nothing better than to lay some traps.. go back hide in a bush and bam see them fly 10 feet with surreal explosiong graphics - oh yeah thats what i would really like very very very nice looking explosions because some games just dont have them.

Ok here is another thing can/will it/could it/might it include something along the lines of Splinter cell where if you hide in the darkness you cant be seen (if you hide in a bush with appropraite cammo you cant be seen) and when you make to much noise you are detected (same but also when you shot the AI realizes your there and goes and checks it out and if they find a body then urm RUN) Do you see what i mean. Maybe not have that feature as part of the interface but as a substructure where its not displayed but that element still exists.

Also it would be nice to see the AI actually be an AI i mean like they dont die in 10 seconds if you dont play but they arnt invinsable either. Lets say you are trying to heal someone well they give cover fire. or they setup a machine gun from there own will and so on...

About the jumping (i seen this on another thread so i wont go into it much) jumping is fine as long as there are 2 things stamina bar and you cant jump more than 1-2feet in the air.

Backup? It would be nice to see )obiously in Solo mode that you can get the radio guy )if any) to ask for backup. So lets say your deffending and area as your mission. Well there are different things you could do - you could for one try and deffend it as well as possible - go on the offensive to deffend your base (if you see what i mean) - or you could ask for some backup (ofcourse the devs have to make it so its not easy to win jsut because you have backup).

Enviroment? It would be nice if:
- You could swim
- You could climn up a slope aslong as you meet the weight limit
-you could climb certain trees to wack out the banucclors (sorry cant spell that word) or you could climb up to surprise kill someone who walks underneath. Or even as a position to sniper from

Weapon Management? Well as i said before wieght limit or some other kind of limit please http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.
Apart from that something which would be kool is the way you change your weapons. I mean in alot (not all) you just select the weapon you want from your inventory presseing the d-pad and then is magically appears with a new weapon. Aha but what if (in solo mode) you can have like time lapse where you pause change your weapon and then go back ot the fight, you see your character unmount his current one and mount his new one (all takes alittle time).
I know in MP it will have to be like the oldstlyle because you cant simply stop the game for everybody.

Hope you like these ideas
-

frd_neko
06-23-2006, 03:55 PM
Deded makes another good point about level design; always make the player think they're going via the less obvious route. Half Life is a complete masterclass in this method, you always feel like you're exploring some obscure, half-hidden route in a direction you're not meant to be going, but if you actually go back and look at it, it's the only route that was available! Personally I think this is down to some fuundamental psychology of people being awkward buggers; present someone with a door and a broken-looking air vent and they'll disappear into the air vent quicker than you can say 'Crikey, you're an awkward bugger, aren't you?'.

Can't really talk about the weapon stuff, I'm afraid. Smart ideas though!

Neko.

Elixsus
06-23-2006, 04:33 PM
What you think about the enviroment ideas?

What you think about my profile pic :P

frd_neko
06-24-2006, 03:49 AM
Originally posted by Elixsus:
What you think about the enviroment ideas?

Good stuff once again; I would say that I think the idea of being able to climb different slopes depending on how much you're carrying might be hard for the player to understand, mainly because it's very difficult to tell the difference between two different inclines, and also in organic environments like we have in HAZE you don't see a lot of perfectly flat slopes; most of them are very complex rounded shapes, just like in real life!

Similarly, the trees idea is cool but I think would be very hard for the player to do, simply because the reality of the situation is that most branches in a tree aren't strong enough to support a person's weight. It is a cool idea though - maybe if we do another HAZE after this one, eh?


What you think about my profile pic :P

You mean your signature pic? If so, it's smart! Bit of a lack of an FRD logo though, don't you think? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Neko.

Elixsus
06-24-2006, 04:04 AM
Lol yeah maybe.


Yaeh i understand about the enviroment being diffecult for btoh players and programmers to do as it just brings in to many questions for a player to deal with.

And if your bringing out a Haze2 it would be kool to include some of these ideas.

I was wondering if there will be any night fights?

If anyone has anymore to add or to talk about on the subject of game 'Realism' please put your ideas or extend the ideas already said.
It owuld be welcome.

Sig pic updatehttp://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

deded999
06-25-2006, 06:17 AM
As Neko stated earlier, the primary concern here is the focus of the game: although ideas such as stealth (Elixsus' Splinter Cell ideas) realism regarding weapon selection/carrying capacity and ability to 'go anywhere' in the terrain (ie. up slopes, trees, etc) are interesting and may be useful in small amounts, they certainly dilute the central gameplay of an action FPS.

Haze certainly seems to be aiming for slightly less 'arcade' style action than the TS series, but I would guess maybe not quite as much as it may seem. Then again it's very difficult to tell at the moment!

With this in mind I would suggest that any 'carrying capacity' should still be done in a simple way, ie. a few weapon slots with grenades added, rather than a Resident Evil-style backpack with slots and weapons of various sizes - it would just slow down the game massively and it wouldn't be appropriate at all, (in a more RPG/action-style game like Deus Ex, this would be fine, as would stealth, climbing trees etc).

Ideally the ability to traverse terrain should be obvious from simply looking at it, as it mostly would be in real-life. There are various ways to manage this, including subtle visual clues, (certain plants that only grow on un-climbable slopes for instance).

The trees idea could still be done, but in a slightly more organised way, such as human-built hides or tree snipe-points reached by ladder or rope. As the access to these areas would be limited and controlled, it would be easier for the game to allow and control access, but admittedly the snipe-points would then be easier to target and find than just any old tree branch you happen to find - probably a more realistic state of affairs in the long run though.

I would expect to see night battles, maybe - I didn't until I heard about the two-day timeline, but if that's true I can't see how night battles could be avoided. Where you are at night however is something else - it's possible some of the nights you could be in interior (and therefore probably lit) areas, so lack of night-vision may not be a problem. We'll see.

Just to return to the level-boundary talk, FC managed to allow several angles of attack to enemy camps by having quite compact levels, but the alternate approaches being well-hidden and hard to get to - long swims, tricky climbs, etc, which rewarded the exploratory player well, without extending the levels particularly. Just clever level design, putting several enemy areas close together, with tricky environments in between.

frd_neko:
One thing about HAZE though, is I think it'll satisfy a broader range than most FPS's because of some of the interesting things we're doing in it. Can't say much more for now though, etc, etc.

I missed this at first, but it's very intriguing!

(Cool sig Elixsus - I'd agree about the lack of a FRD logo though; Ubisoft doubtless are having input into the game, but it's FRD that are making it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

frd_neko
06-25-2006, 08:10 AM
Originally posted by deded999:
With this in mind I would suggest that any 'carrying capacity' should still be done in a simple way, ie. a few weapon slots with grenades added

There's already information available about this - go back and have a closer look at those screen shots!



I would expect to see night battles, maybe - I didn't until I heard about the two-day timeline, but if that's true I can't see how night battles could be avoided. Where you are at night however is something else - it's possible some of the nights you could be in interior (and therefore probably lit) areas, so lack of night-vision may not be a problem. We'll see.

There's some great stuff in the nighttime sections of the game, it's not all big old firefights though! One really cool thing about the passage of time in the game is that it links in with the narrative, i.e. the onset of night is accompanied by significant developments in the plot which also have a similar, darkening tone to them. One of the things I'm proudest of in the game is how closely the level design and narrative link together; it's far more effective than anything we've ever done before, and dare I say it, it's better than pretty much any other game I could mention too.

Neko.

deded999
06-25-2006, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by frd_neko:
There's already information available about this - go back and have a closer look at those screen shots!

I was talking more in general, but this seems to suggest two weapon slots plus grenades is the Haze set up. Good system, (and realistic), especially if weapons are available from fallen enemies...


There's some great stuff in the nighttime sections of the game, it's not all big old firefights though! One really cool thing about the passage of time in the game is that it links in with the narrative, i.e. the onset of night is accompanied by significant developments in the plot which also have a similar, darkening tone to them. One of the things I'm proudest of in the game is how closely the level design and narrative link together; it's far more effective than anything we've ever done before, and dare I say it, it's better than pretty much any other game I could mention too.

Sounds great Neko, cheers for the extra details. I'm wondering now how the day/night cycle is/isn't incorporated into MP... I guess we'll find out later eh? Sounds like it will add lots of interesting tactical options to gameplay though, and probably things we haven't seen before. Great stuff.

deded999
06-26-2006, 04:31 AM
Sorry to double-post, but this is a new point.

I've just watched a video of Crysis, demoed by Crytek Art Director Micheal Khaimzon. It's a great-looking demo, but my point is this: during the jungle combat Khaimzon says several times that due to the depth of the foliage in this environment it's virtually essential to use the radar to spot enemies. It certainly seems like this is necessary in the game, and there was a similar need for it in Far Cry, (the previous and similar Crytek game), which used a clever device where you could radar-tag enemies with your binoculars if you scoped the area first, so enemies weren't automatically spotted by the radar.

Now that's a very nice device, but I saw no evidence of it in Crysis, and although radar is a decent option to have in-game, it's not a realistic option at all, especially in such a complex environment - to me this is a failing of the game design that shouldn't be required. Players should have to seek out there enemies without such tricks and I was wondering how FRD have found this 'problem' during development.

One point I would make is that, to me at least, the Crysis jungle looks quite bland, colour-wise, making all the foliage blend together and making the variations in features hard to make out. The shots we've seen so far of Haze seem to offer more variation in colour and better differentiation between features, and therefore more possibility of spotting people, but that's a subjective view based on off-screen Crysis video and half-a-dozen Haze shots...

Sure, TS had radar, but in my experience, certainly in MP it was not an option people wanted to use much, if at all. I've seen no sign of a radar option on the Haze shots we've seen, and it would be an option for Mantel if anyone, so I presume there isn't one. Any comments would be interesting here Neko, and possibly not too revealing of game or plot at this point?

One additional point in a similar vein - another trick that can give a similar effect to radar is a cross-hair that can spot enemy from friend when they are merely dots on the horizon: IIRC TSFP suffered a little from this (although I may be thinking of another game!) and it's something I hope a little thought will go into. I've no great problem with a red/green identifier on the HUD, but being able to pop enemies from several hundred metres when you only know they are there (and an enemy) because of the cross-hair is a little cheap in my book. Discuss.

frd_neko
06-26-2006, 12:39 PM
Regarding the radar thing, we've hit on quite a nice compromise between enabling the player to identify the enemy and retaining believability in the interface - I definitely agree that some sort of radar option is a bit of a cop out. Our solution is a good example of another aspect of 'realism' in games, which is the question of things that might be technically unrealistic but fit well within the rules of the game world and so end up feeling realistic as a result. Which is to say that the way we're allowing the player to identify the enemy in HAZE might not be actually realistic, but fits very well in the game world we've created.

How? Well, we haven't yet revealed nearly all of the benefits that nectar gives you...

Neko.

deded999
06-26-2006, 12:48 PM
Ooh! Smello-vision eh? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Maybe that isn't as stupid a guess as it sounds!

Yeah, your 'hazily discussed' (ouch!) solution sounds like its ticking all the right boxes to me - as you say, it's never really about being 'realistic' per se, but about being believable within the context of the game scenario. It also seems, from the shots so far at least, to be keeping down on the screen furniture, which is usually a good thing IMO. Cool.